turbinator62
Active member
OK. You guys have shamed me enough. I just made room reservations for the 19th and 20th. We'll be there if at all possible.
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The continuing saga of Niksons 1402 IMP sn 129
- Thread starter turbinator62
- Start date
OK. You guys have shamed me enough. I just made room reservations for the 19th and 20th. We'll be there if at all possible.
turbinator62
Active member
We made it up to the cabin on the 27th no problem. I was able to make the 2.5 miles up the mountain all the way in 2nd gear. All temps were in the green. I think I finally got the slipping clutch problem solved with agressive adjustment.
Last year at the Leavenworth Jamboree the track wanted to jump a tooth in sharp turns which was annoying. Last spring I added an additional leaf to all 8 spring packs for a total of 4 and increased the idler tire pressure to 70 psi which seems to have fixed that issue.
We had it stuffed with gear and there is about a foot and a half of snow with numerous drifts. The 1402 took it all in stride. I think I finally got it working the way it should with the reliability you need. My wife even commented on how much she enjoyed the ride and thats a good thing.
We went snowmobiling yesterday for 3 hours. I rolled off the side of a drift into a shallow treewell and my wife did a face plant in the snow. We haven't ridden in 3 years due to a lack of snow and it was obvious. Had fun but we are both wiped out today. Getting too old for that crap. (60+)
The cat is much more tame.
Last year at the Leavenworth Jamboree the track wanted to jump a tooth in sharp turns which was annoying. Last spring I added an additional leaf to all 8 spring packs for a total of 4 and increased the idler tire pressure to 70 psi which seems to have fixed that issue.
We had it stuffed with gear and there is about a foot and a half of snow with numerous drifts. The 1402 took it all in stride. I think I finally got it working the way it should with the reliability you need. My wife even commented on how much she enjoyed the ride and thats a good thing.
We went snowmobiling yesterday for 3 hours. I rolled off the side of a drift into a shallow treewell and my wife did a face plant in the snow. We haven't ridden in 3 years due to a lack of snow and it was obvious. Had fun but we are both wiped out today. Getting too old for that crap. (60+)
The cat is much more tame.
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We had a 45hp Wisconsin V4 on a small self propelled Ag sprayer back in the day. It would never like to start when the engine was hot. We fought it, and never really figured out why. Now years later when it doesn't matter, I think I now know the solution. 
The issue was, as Turbinator has found, boiling gasoline in the fuel bowl in the carb..
I remember how lots of heat would radiate back up around the intake, and it would take 20 minutes before you even bothered to try and restart the engine. Of course the engine was some what under powered for the task it had, and it was used in 80+ degree weather. We used it for several years and sold it to a neighbor who used it years more. The engine was still the original when the neighbor sold it. Their advertising claimed long life, and they give that..
Regards, Kirk
The issue was, as Turbinator has found, boiling gasoline in the fuel bowl in the carb..I remember how lots of heat would radiate back up around the intake, and it would take 20 minutes before you even bothered to try and restart the engine. Of course the engine was some what under powered for the task it had, and it was used in 80+ degree weather. We used it for several years and sold it to a neighbor who used it years more. The engine was still the original when the neighbor sold it. Their advertising claimed long life, and they give that..
Regards, Kirk
sno-drifter
Bronze Member
I remember a Freeman hay baler with one when I was younger. My father and uncle had trouble starting it when hot. That Wisconsin V engine is responsible for my fine vocabulary even before I joined the US Navy.
turbinator62
Active member
My first experience with Wisconsin V4's was in the Air Force. They were used on MJ1 bomb loaders. The batteries were always dead so you had to bend over to hand crank them. I have a nice scar on my lip from one that started easier than I expected, released the crank on the upswing, and got me right in the kisser. 
sno-drifter
Bronze Member
My first experience with Wisconsin V4's was in the Air Force. They were used on MJ1 bomb loaders. The batteries were always dead so you had to bend over to hand crank them. I have a nice scar on my lip from one that started easier than I expected, released the crank on the upswing, and got me right in the kisser.
Let's all be careful here, we do not want to turn this thread into "Here is the scar" I got from working with machinery. The lies will overload the intrweb.
turbinator62
Active member
We had a 45hp Wisconsin V4 on a small self propelled Ag sprayer back in the day. It would never like to start when the engine was hot. We fought it, and never really figured out why. Now years later when it doesn't matter, I think I now know the solution.
I remember how lots of heat would radiate back up around the intake, and it would take 20 minutes before you even bothered to try and restart the engine. Of course the engine was some what under powered for the task it had, and it was used in 80+ degree weather. We used it for several years and sold it to a neighbor who used it years more. The engine was still the original when the neighbor sold it. Their advertising claimed long life, and they give that..
Regards, Kirk
That's the advantage of the electric fuel pump. It primes the carb as soon as you turn on the key. You don't have to crank the engine over to get the engine driven fuel pump to prime the carb.
turbinator62
Active member
We made it back home from the cabin with no problems. The cat did everything we needed it to do. It was stuffed with everything we could get into the back of a Chevy Tahoe with the seats down. I actually had it in 3rd and 4th gear (down hill) and it surprisingly went faster than I was comfortable going (which is unusual for me). We did a little side slipping on an icy part of the hill but recovered no problem. I'm still learning how to drive this thing in different conditions. We had everything from deep snow, packed snow, ice, and drifts and I was happy with how it handled all of them. It actually does pretty good for only 30 horsepower. I even brought my neighbors 92 year old mother up to their cabin and she loved it!
Temps were in the single digits and low teens most of the trip.
We were there 6 days. The cat started instantly every time I turned the key. Nik had put an Optima yellow top battery and a breakerless electronic ignition in it when he rebuilt it and I definitely think that is the way to go in a snowcat.
The pictures are where we turn off the road down our driveway.
The only thing I am going to think about changing is the engine air inlet. With the outside air temps in the single digits, the max heater outlet temp I could get was 125- 135 degrees going uphill and about 100 going downhill, which was ok, but I would like the engine to run a little warmer than that. I cowled the engine in order to keep the cabin from getting too hot which was a problem Nik had, but I don't think he ever ran it when it was this cold outside. I was thinking about putting a manual shutter door inside the air intake duct to limit the amount of cooling air to the engine. (A servo driven thermostatically controlled one would be better but maybe overkill) Being this is an air cooled engine, there is no thermostat to control the engine temp like a water cooled engine.
Something to think about for spring maintenance.
We are really happy we were able to buy this thing from Nikson. It sure makes getting to and from our cabin in winter a lot more pleasant and certain.
Temps were in the single digits and low teens most of the trip.
We were there 6 days. The cat started instantly every time I turned the key. Nik had put an Optima yellow top battery and a breakerless electronic ignition in it when he rebuilt it and I definitely think that is the way to go in a snowcat. The pictures are where we turn off the road down our driveway.
The only thing I am going to think about changing is the engine air inlet. With the outside air temps in the single digits, the max heater outlet temp I could get was 125- 135 degrees going uphill and about 100 going downhill, which was ok, but I would like the engine to run a little warmer than that. I cowled the engine in order to keep the cabin from getting too hot which was a problem Nik had, but I don't think he ever ran it when it was this cold outside. I was thinking about putting a manual shutter door inside the air intake duct to limit the amount of cooling air to the engine. (A servo driven thermostatically controlled one would be better but maybe overkill) Being this is an air cooled engine, there is no thermostat to control the engine temp like a water cooled engine.
Something to think about for spring maintenance.
We are really happy we were able to buy this thing from Nikson. It sure makes getting to and from our cabin in winter a lot more pleasant and certain.
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turbinator62
Active member
We made it up to the cabin again. Snow is mushy and temps are in the low 30's. With about a mile to go on the way up the dang clutch started slipping again. You could smell the oil being roasted. I had to make the last mile in low gear. I just don't get it. I have to adjust this thing every 10 miles or so which is a pain in the rear. This is with a brand new clutch assembly and disk.
This clutch is supposedly rated at 150 ft/lbs but the engine only puts out half that. Once adjusted it should last forever.
The clutch/chaincase on the Wisconsin engine is a separate housing from the egine itself. It has the clutch assembly, two ball bearings suporting the upper sprocket shaft and two tapered roller bearings supporting the lower output shaft. The manual calls for 1.5 qt of the same oil in the chaincase as the engine. I'm using 5w30 in both. The clutch is wet.
This thing was made in 1965 when clutch disks still had asbestos in them, and the best oils available were worse than the cheapest oils now. The new disc now is carbon metallic. My question is, are these newer products causing it to slip with regular engine oil.
My only idea at this point is to switch the chain case to ATF (Dexron or Mercon)
It is made for automatic transmissions with ball and roller bearings and friction clutches and has a lower lubricity than engine oil which is made for hydrostatic sleeve bearings.
Any ideas would be appreciated as I am running out of them. Marco? Jim? Pat?
This clutch is supposedly rated at 150 ft/lbs but the engine only puts out half that. Once adjusted it should last forever.
The clutch/chaincase on the Wisconsin engine is a separate housing from the egine itself. It has the clutch assembly, two ball bearings suporting the upper sprocket shaft and two tapered roller bearings supporting the lower output shaft. The manual calls for 1.5 qt of the same oil in the chaincase as the engine. I'm using 5w30 in both. The clutch is wet.
This thing was made in 1965 when clutch disks still had asbestos in them, and the best oils available were worse than the cheapest oils now. The new disc now is carbon metallic. My question is, are these newer products causing it to slip with regular engine oil.
My only idea at this point is to switch the chain case to ATF (Dexron or Mercon)
It is made for automatic transmissions with ball and roller bearings and friction clutches and has a lower lubricity than engine oil which is made for hydrostatic sleeve bearings.
Any ideas would be appreciated as I am running out of them. Marco? Jim? Pat?
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Tye one on
Member
Have you measured the pressure it takes to engage the clutch?
One other product to put in the list is the combined hydraulic/ transmission oil some tractors use. My JD uses low viscosity "Hy-Gard" which according to Deere is made for wet clutches, brakes, transmissions and general hydraulic use.
https://jdparts.deere.com/partsmkt/document/english/pmac/4968_fb_HyGardsTransmissionHydraulic.htm
That being said, I still don't understand the slip that much. Or rather it should have been slipping all along if it was an incompatible clutch material and oil.
https://jdparts.deere.com/partsmkt/document/english/pmac/4968_fb_HyGardsTransmissionHydraulic.htm
That being said, I still don't understand the slip that much. Or rather it should have been slipping all along if it was an incompatible clutch material and oil.
turbinator62
Active member
This thing has an odd clutch set up. It uses a hand operated lever that pushes in a yoke which operates three cams. The cams press against an adjustable ring on one side and the pressure plate on the other. The ring has some spring to it and the cams will go over center when engaged. Its not like a conventional clutch as we know it with big springs maintaining a constant pressure as the disk wears. As soon as there is any wear, it gets looser and starts slipping which compounds the problem. I set it up to where I can just pull the lever back into the lock position. If you try to make it too tight, you run the risk of breaking the ring at the holes as you can see in the pictures of the old clutch earlier in my thread.
This system has been around for 60 years. Am I the only one with this problem?
Newer automotive oils have friction modifiers which cause motorcycle wet clutches to slip and burn up pretty quickly.Maybe try a light diesel oil.They don't usually have friction modifiers.Anything with a label listing the oil as energy conserving has friction modifiers in it.
We may have a winner! If it were me, I'd try the hy-gard, it's made for wet clutches. Don't know how long it would take to clean off any of the friction modifier on the clutch with just a change, or if it would require a change-purge-change cycle.
turbinator62
Active member
Thanks for the replies guys. I think I'll give the hy gard a try. Would it be available at a tractor supply?
The problem with this thing is the transaxle is 4 speed non syncronized. You can't shift on the fly. It is also so slow that It will stop before you can shift to a higher gear even if it was synchroed. So the only way to use a higher gear is to start out in that gear and ease the clutch in. I may have to change my technique and just start out at a lower rpm and engage the clutch quickly and try not to kill the engine. Driving in low gear all the time kind of sucks.
Nik put a new clutch in when he rebuilt it in 2012. When I got it the disk was down to the rivets after one season but the pressure plate and housing had issues which contributed to that. I replaced the entire clutch assembly in 2014 and have had to adjust it twice after only about 25 miles. That just seems excessive. It takes about an hour to adjust it with all the covers that have to be removed. More if you are in knee deep snow.
I kept the two old clutch discs and have relined them. I found some linings on eBay that were the right size and thickness for about 10 bucks each. They were made for Brushhog pto driven brush cutters as an impact clutch. They appear to be a fiberglass composite material. They look like organic type brake linings rather than carbon metallic. Was able to drill, counterbore and rivet them to the disk with no problem. A new one from Wisconsin is 250 bucks and they don't sell replacement linings.
I soaked one in oil to make sure it wouldn't swell or come apart, but haven't tried one yet. You have to pull the engine to change the clutch so it can be an all day job or more.
Thanks for the input!
The problem with this thing is the transaxle is 4 speed non syncronized. You can't shift on the fly. It is also so slow that It will stop before you can shift to a higher gear even if it was synchroed. So the only way to use a higher gear is to start out in that gear and ease the clutch in. I may have to change my technique and just start out at a lower rpm and engage the clutch quickly and try not to kill the engine. Driving in low gear all the time kind of sucks.
Nik put a new clutch in when he rebuilt it in 2012. When I got it the disk was down to the rivets after one season but the pressure plate and housing had issues which contributed to that. I replaced the entire clutch assembly in 2014 and have had to adjust it twice after only about 25 miles. That just seems excessive. It takes about an hour to adjust it with all the covers that have to be removed. More if you are in knee deep snow.
I kept the two old clutch discs and have relined them. I found some linings on eBay that were the right size and thickness for about 10 bucks each. They were made for Brushhog pto driven brush cutters as an impact clutch. They appear to be a fiberglass composite material. They look like organic type brake linings rather than carbon metallic. Was able to drill, counterbore and rivet them to the disk with no problem. A new one from Wisconsin is 250 bucks and they don't sell replacement linings.
I soaked one in oil to make sure it wouldn't swell or come apart, but haven't tried one yet. You have to pull the engine to change the clutch so it can be an all day job or more.
Thanks for the input!
If you want hy-gard look for a deere dealer. should be one close:
http://dealerlocator.deere.com/servlet/country=US?locale=en_US
Some of the generic fluid might work, but I've had good results with hy-gard for 20 years, and don't want to experiment. It's built for tractor transmissions and many of those (collar shift) have the same issue, you have to ride out the clutch to start in a high gear eg, no shift on fly.
CT
turbinator62
Active member
Thanks guys. Now I have a plan. 
Nikson
Bronze Member
Great to see the 1402 out and about... Pleasure to know that all that laboring in the garage didnt go to waste if you know what I mean! 
Thinking I need to get my "crap" together and finish up the 1450 with a full cab on the rear, plus need a fan cowl on the engine (gets warmer than I want it) and some last steering/track adjustments...
Althou, really tempted to go via big wheels and torsion suspension to get a smoother ride...
Thinking I need to get my "crap" together and finish up the 1450 with a full cab on the rear, plus need a fan cowl on the engine (gets warmer than I want it) and some last steering/track adjustments...
Althou, really tempted to go via big wheels and torsion suspension to get a smoother ride...
turbinator62
Active member
I picked up 2 quarts of Low Viscosity Hy Gard today. It was only $4/qt. I'll bring the cat home when the snow clears a little and I can get the trailer out. I think I'll pull the engine and inspect the clutch to see how much it has worn, replace it if needed, degrease it and put it back together with the Hy Gard.
Thanks again for the advice!
turbinator62
Active member
Newer automotive oils have friction modifiers which cause motorcycle wet clutches to slip and burn up pretty quickly.Maybe try a light diesel oil.They don't usually have friction modifiers.Anything with a label listing the oil as energy conserving has friction modifiers in it.
Many thanks to Ben and Cidertom. I checked the can that I used for the chaincase oil and it is indeed energy conserving. This is also what Nik told me he used which would explain why the clutch wore out in 1 season for him.
I'll bring it home to the hangar in a couple of weeks and go through it and put in the Hy Gard. Hopefully I won't have any problems next season.
This is why I love the forums.
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Glad to help. Keep us posted. Do a quick shop job and bring it to Timberline this year. That should show if that is the trouble or not. Then you have all summer to tinker with it if it isn't.
Wish the tractors only used that much. About 7 gallons in the bigger of the two and 5 in the smaller.
Wish the tractors only used that much. About 7 gallons in the bigger of the two and 5 in the smaller.
turbinator62
Active member
I finally got the cat in the hangar and pulled the engine. The oil in the chain case definitely smelled roasted. Removed the chain case and disassembled the clutch. The clutch housing had a lot of sludge and the disc was worn about .030 in thickness with a sticky goo that filled the rivet holes. This happened after only about 30 miles. This is most likely the result of using the wrong oil. (5W-30)
I have a relined clutch disc and will use JD Hy Gard oil in the case after I flush it out real good with solvent. I found some correct size linings on ebay that are made for Bush Hog pto driven brush cutters as an impact clutch. A pair is about 20 bucks as opposed to $250 for a new Wisconsin OEM disk. I had to drill and counter-bore holes for the rivets. The rivet heads are .050 deep on each side so that will provide about .100 total wear before it is down to the rivets. The last picture is the new disk.
I don't know when I will have it done. I'm going into the shop in a few weeks for a new hip. It has ceramic bearings and a lifetime warranty just like NAPA!
After that I may have to have back surgery for an old injury from a plane crash that is catching up with me. Time to pay the dues from a time when my balls were bigger than my brain.
I have a relined clutch disc and will use JD Hy Gard oil in the case after I flush it out real good with solvent. I found some correct size linings on ebay that are made for Bush Hog pto driven brush cutters as an impact clutch. A pair is about 20 bucks as opposed to $250 for a new Wisconsin OEM disk. I had to drill and counter-bore holes for the rivets. The rivet heads are .050 deep on each side so that will provide about .100 total wear before it is down to the rivets. The last picture is the new disk.
I don't know when I will have it done. I'm going into the shop in a few weeks for a new hip. It has ceramic bearings and a lifetime warranty just like NAPA!
After that I may have to have back surgery for an old injury from a plane crash that is catching up with me. Time to pay the dues from a time when my balls were bigger than my brain.
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MNoutdoors RIP
Gone But Not Forgotten
Normally those PTO impact discs are not made to run in oil
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turbinator62
Active member
Normally those PTO impact discs are not made to run in oil
I was worried about that too. I had a lining that I drilled wrong so as a test I left it in a can of oil for a month then put it in my solvent tank to see if it would stay together and it did. That really isn't a dynamic test, but at this point I really don't have any other options. The disk that Nixon had replaced when he rebuilt it looked to be carbon metallic? as it had strands of copper or brass in it and was worn to the rivets after one season. It was a factory product. In that case the clutch pressure plate had a bad pin, cracked adjusting ring, and the wrong oil. Lots of variables.
The disk that came with the complete new OEM assembly that I replaced in 2014 looks to be organic (no metallic strands) and of the same composition as the PTO discs with what appear to be embedded fibers of some type. (Fiberglass? Kevlar?) It still experienced what I believer to be a lot of wear but with the only variable being the oil.
Brake and clutch lining material is available from some of the industrial suppliers (McMaster Carr) in various coefficients of friction but they are in sheet form and would have to be machined to size and don't specify whether they are suitable for wet applications.
I am hoping that using the new oil will solve the slip problems. It will be an experiment. If it doesn't work this time, I'll try something else. I've had the engine out 3 times now. I'm getting pretty good at it.
I had to take the engine out of my motorhome 5 times to get an oil leak fixed a few years ago. Turned out that the engine rebuilder hadn't resurfaced the crank seal journal. It was covered with corrosion pits. They made good on it though. I'm kind of a persistent SOB. That was the only way I could get laid when I was young. Sure couldn't do it on looks or charm.