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Kristi KT7 restoration pictures
- Thread starter BigAl
- Start date
BigAl
Gone But Not Forgotten
OK! Heres what I know :
Changing the oil to ATF helped 100% .Unfortunately the hi speed is still not working correctly which leads me to believe that the motors are starving for oil . The Motor that is first in line to get oil is working in hi speed .The 2nd one is not but keeps trying too .They both work in low speed .
I beleive #2 motor has no oil getting to it and the first motor is taking all the limited amount that is avalible in hi speed mode . So I think I have my oil lines crossed and am supplying oil from my return side of the tilt hydraulics valve to the motors . I basically am in a "tug of war" for oil . This is the only other area possible ,unless the pumps are damaged .Nothing else was changed during Restoration . I should know for sure in a couple hours .
Funny thing is the body tilt hydraulics work and respone much faster with the ATF than hydraulic oil that was in it .
Changing the oil to ATF helped 100% .Unfortunately the hi speed is still not working correctly which leads me to believe that the motors are starving for oil . The Motor that is first in line to get oil is working in hi speed .The 2nd one is not but keeps trying too .They both work in low speed .
I beleive #2 motor has no oil getting to it and the first motor is taking all the limited amount that is avalible in hi speed mode . So I think I have my oil lines crossed and am supplying oil from my return side of the tilt hydraulics valve to the motors . I basically am in a "tug of war" for oil . This is the only other area possible ,unless the pumps are damaged .Nothing else was changed during Restoration . I should know for sure in a couple hours .
Funny thing is the body tilt hydraulics work and respone much faster with the ATF than hydraulic oil that was in it .
Snowcat Operations
Active member
Good work so far Al. I dont believe the pumps are damaged. Can each pump get its own oil supply from the tank? Can you rig it up that way?
Snowcat Operations
Active member
Sorry to hear it BigAl. I really didnt think your run would have damaged them. Well when they are rebuilt then every single componet is brandnew on that machine. It will last another 40 + years. Longer than you and I will be around.
yellowpine O.T.S.
New member
Big Al where in the heck is Panama, ID ?
Just got back from the snow cat shoot out(Aurburn,/Yuba gap,Ca) Lots of snow, over six feet in less than a week and lots of time parked on I-80 what a mess, but finally made it into the parking lot at the Snowflower at 2:30am to find a couple of sno-cats in the lot,it was the very comforting knowing that we were not the only ones that had made it through and that there was going to be a machine or two to drive.
Type FA ATF for sure has been what I've learned,no mixing with anything else and a min. of 20 minutes warm up.
Good luck and good work!
Kif
Just got back from the snow cat shoot out(Aurburn,/Yuba gap,Ca) Lots of snow, over six feet in less than a week and lots of time parked on I-80 what a mess, but finally made it into the parking lot at the Snowflower at 2:30am to find a couple of sno-cats in the lot,it was the very comforting knowing that we were not the only ones that had made it through and that there was going to be a machine or two to drive.
Type FA ATF for sure has been what I've learned,no mixing with anything else and a min. of 20 minutes warm up.
Good luck and good work!
Kif
BigAl said:Well boy's
Both motors are history .
Al, How do you know the motors are history? If that's the case then it's better the motors than the pumps. Be sure that you are indeed actuating the control arms. It looks like you've got twin variable displacement piston pumps. These can be pricey little buggers to rebuild. The motors I would guess are just fixed displacement gear pumps. These are the cheapest and easiest to rebuild. Any hydro shop worth its salt should be able to repair them good as new.
I bought a used ASV Posi Track machine years back. It was low houred so I figured there would be no immediate problems. Guess again. I had to rebuild one drive motor right off the bat. Cost about $300. That was about 7 years ago and it is still running strong. Good luck!
PS. Vickers was bought by Eaton years back. Have a look at http://hydraulics.eaton.com/products/menu_main.htm and see if you can spot literature for your components.
PSS With regard to cold hydraulic fluid, it took only a couple of times of blowing the seal on the return filter on the posi track (and spewing gallons of hydraulic fluid all over the garage) on sub-zero mornings before I installed an oil reservoir heater!
PSSS If you're not familiar with hydraulic systems, here a good online refresher: http://www.free-ed.net/free-ed/MechTech/hydraulics01/default.asp
Attachments
BigAl
Gone But Not Forgotten
mtmogs said:
Ok , by motors I mean the hydro drives . I do not no much about these hydros . It was the one part I did not rebuild or check after the old owner told me they ran fine . I should have had them check ,so its my own damn fault . They just squeal in hi range .
But after taking the wife out for dinner we decided that if the whole drive system which includes removing the engine has to be done ,than we are going to install the latest best upgrades I can find . I have already decided , that I want a system that will give me at least 25 - 30 MPH . Got any ideas what would fit ???
BigAl said:
Al, by hydro drives you mean the units on the chain hoist pictured above? These would be the variable displacement pumps attached to a funk dual pump drive unit. The motors (I misspoke before and called them "gear pumps") should be the units at the other end of the hoses somehow mechanically linked to the tracks on either side. If the squeeling is coming from the pumps, that sounds like it could possible be the relief valves have popped, and fluid is passing by them at high velocity. This could happen if you have your hoses hooked up incorrectly, etc., resulting in a barrier to flow. Also, could it be the proportional valve that's squeeling? I'm assuming that valve is present to split off a portion of the hydraulic flow to power the track tilt cylinders. Anyway, that could be stealing all your pressure as well.
As for a new system, well, there has to be a more knowledgeable hydro guy in the forum than me...but here goes nothing. Let's assume the Kristi engineers designed a good system and optimized the engine's power with hydraulic components to give the desired speed and torque so the machine will crawl up a wall and on the ceiling if necessary. There is a balance between torque and speed, and you will sacrifice one for the other with a given engine's power. One easy thing to do if you want to go faster is to keep the nice pumps that you have (rebuild if neccessary) and get smaller displacement drive motors. You will go faster but will lose torque (this may keep you from climbing up a wall!). This is probably not a desirable solution. A better solution might be to switch out the fixed displacement drive motors for a set of variable displacement drive motors. This would let you increase the displacement of the motors when you need high torque (slow speed) for climbing on the ceiling, and decrease displacement when you need high-speed (low torque) for when you're drag racing Arlow's souped-up ST4.
If you start from scratch, you'll be spending several thousands of $$ for a new hydro system. If it were me, I'd have a hydro expert look at your system and rebuild what needs to be rebuilt and see how you like it. Who knows? It may be a simple inexpensive fix. Ask what you would need to do to go faster w/o sacrificing too much torque.
Hang in there Al! Hydrostatic drive systems can cause heartaches, but there's nothing like them when they are working properly.
Tommo
New member
Al, i noticed on your pictures of the 'Operating name plates' that you missed out hthe most important ones of all for the Kristi, HELP, OH DEAR, FAULTY, BROKEN DOWN, TOW STRAP, PLEASE HELP, ST4's WELCOME TO HELP, PLEASE DONT DRIVE PAST and AT LEAST IT GOT THIS FAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nice work Al and i must say it as been a pleasure following your restoration job wich is excellent and is a reall eye opener!
Cheers, Tommo
Cheers, Tommo
BigAl
Gone But Not Forgotten
Tommo said:
Tommo ,
Great to here from you
!!!. You have had us worried here on FF .They are indeed boat seats in case I need to cross the big puddle and help you with your Snot Trac .
The "help"signs I could have already used , but I am attempting to get it corrected so the drive system works correctly .Sort of like old Bob S. running out of gas, but worst .
Did you ever get your Snow Trac ? Did you kill your Brother ,if you didn't get it ? Do you want me to come kill your brother ,if you didn't get it ? Do you want to buy my KT7 and run over your brother
? Post when you can . We really miss your input and I am really bored insulting the same Snot Trac guys every damn day
.Great hearing from you ,
Take care & God Bless
Allen
BigAl
Gone But Not Forgotten
Ok ... Lets get back on topic .
I am soooooo sore this morning , I can hardly move . Everything hurts from standing on my head yesterday changing hoses and to attempt to get the drive system operating correctly .
I still feel I have missed something ????? Something really simple . The lo speed side works great except I have no power for pulling hills. I know I have a flow restriction somewhere ????? I am going back out later and try to determine exactly where the squealing is coming from . It is either the pump or the drive motor .
I know the right angle gear boxes are working correctly that the drive motors hook too .
I may give it one more try and run a dedicated oil supply just to the pumps and completely bypass the tilt hydraulics that are plumbed into the system also .
Can some one please look at these pictures and tell me where to install a pressure gauge and where the check valves are located ? Also if anyone can positively identify the suction port on that pump . There are no marking to indicate which is which and I am attempting to buy a "New Holland Skid Steer maintence manual" on ebay that supposenly has the exact same system . I was told they were used in the 1970's New Holland skid steers and that they are the same, right down to the right angle gear drives that go to the wheels . This would be a big help as I have found no manuals so far.
I am soooooo sore this morning , I can hardly move . Everything hurts from standing on my head yesterday changing hoses and to attempt to get the drive system operating correctly .
I still feel I have missed something ????? Something really simple . The lo speed side works great except I have no power for pulling hills. I know I have a flow restriction somewhere ????? I am going back out later and try to determine exactly where the squealing is coming from . It is either the pump or the drive motor .
I know the right angle gear boxes are working correctly that the drive motors hook too .
I may give it one more try and run a dedicated oil supply just to the pumps and completely bypass the tilt hydraulics that are plumbed into the system also .
Can some one please look at these pictures and tell me where to install a pressure gauge and where the check valves are located ? Also if anyone can positively identify the suction port on that pump . There are no marking to indicate which is which and I am attempting to buy a "New Holland Skid Steer maintence manual" on ebay that supposenly has the exact same system . I was told they were used in the 1970's New Holland skid steers and that they are the same, right down to the right angle gear drives that go to the wheels . This would be a big help as I have found no manuals so far.
Attachments
Tommo
New member
Al, I have had a rough time over the last few months with house business at home and here in Baghdad etc!! I have done a quick hello on the 'Where's Tommo' by Mith and reference my ST4, it's fate is yet to be known and my brother has been avoiding me when he know's i'm back in the UK etc, so things there dont seem to be going to plan and i need to find out whether he as the ST4 or whether the bloke sold it!!
I will confront my brother when i get chance as i'm home again at the end of March for 3 weeks and will try to get hold of him and find out what the score is
Still, your boat
is looking really good and with a fast flowing river i think she will prove to be a fast vessal...........until she reaches dry land and then we will be there for you as usual Al 
. So what are the finishing touches are you going to do to her then? I did'nt see any Port and Starboard lights, i think you need some for when the lads come and find you
Al why dont you spend your hard earned cash on something that is realiable and is going to give you many years of trouble free service and will start come rain and shine! You need a.............................................. ST4 Snow Trac! We will convince you sooner or later! 
:rollingla.Well my friend i will have to cut loose has i need to be some where very soon, so until we meet again
BigAl said:
I am not familiar at all with these pumps, but the suction port is usually the largest. I'm not sure whether these babies have a charge pump port either, and no idea where the check valves may be. I'm not sure it even has check valves for the drive system as you have reverse...right? One way to find which port is suction is to answer the question "Does it suck?" If you have the pumps removed from the machine, secure one in a vice or such and,with oil in the pump, turn the pump shaft (may need a pliers but take care not to damage the splines) in the same direction that the engine would turn it. Place your palm (or other part of your anatomy if you feel lucky) over each port as you turn the shaft with the other hand. You will readily determine which ports suck and which ports blow this way
.If your pumps are still in the machine, do the same procedure but have somebody manually turn the flywheel for you with the ignition OFF. Don't want to lose a body part over this. Remember, as I'm sure everybody knows, cleanliness is nest to godliness when it comes to hydraulic systems. Don't get any dust, dirt, etc in the system when the ports are open.
Snowcat Operations
Active member
Are you saying his pumps Suck and Blow?
BigAl
Gone But Not Forgotten
OK. heres the latest news . I been out going over the KT7 ,piece by piece of the entire oil supply system . Today I discovered one more piece of the puzzle . When I purchased a new Hyd filter last year , I just took the old filter with me . It was a different brand than Napa sells . Anyway thats what I got again the other day when I changed to ATF fluid .I just gave them the number off the old one . This afternoon I notice something different . It has "Fuel Filter" written on the side of it . So back to Napa I go and they cross match it and the guy tells me it would restrict hyd oil because it is not a full flow style filter . I tell him what my machine is doing and he thinks this may be a problem since it would stave the system of oil . Anyway , he sets me up with a new Hyd filter that is full flow .It is a hell of a lot bigger . $71 buck !!!! Ouch !!! But if it works ,I will be happy .
So tomorrow I head back out to change the oil again , install another filter and redesign the oil supply hoses .
I am getting so fast at changing oil that "10 minute oil & lube" has asked if I am interested in a job as a grease monkey !!!
So tomorrow I head back out to change the oil again , install another filter and redesign the oil supply hoses .
I am getting so fast at changing oil that "10 minute oil & lube" has asked if I am interested in a job as a grease monkey !!!
Snowcat Operations
Active member
Problem found and solved! She will run like a Kristi out of a Snow Trac convention.
BigAl
Gone But Not Forgotten
Oh No !! We can't be using our beer money for that . I even know a little about home brewing ,so if we get low on funds I can make it to save money . The worst "ass chewin" I ever got from Mom for was blowin up the downstairs bathroom because the damn beer bottles started blowin up where we had bottled them and set them in the shower to age ! I was 18 at the time and the whole downstairs smelled like beer for a month . That pretty much ended my beer making enterprise for good . 
You should have seen me and my buddy dodging beer caps trying to get that stuff outside . I laugh now but it sure wasn't funny then . It was like a war zone !!! Bombs going off all around us .
You should have seen me and my buddy dodging beer caps trying to get that stuff outside . I laugh now but it sure wasn't funny then . It was like a war zone !!! Bombs going off all around us .
mtntopper
Back On Track
BigAl said:
Allen, if I put a NAPA interchange hydraulic filter on my VMC I will have the biggest puddle of hydraulic oil blown all over hell that you can ever imagine. Hydraulic high pressure filters are a lot more filter than many interchanges will show especially if the oil is cold. My pressure filter that is required is about $100.00 and weighs about 6 pounds dry. Be careful what you buy. Many non OEM filters can not take the pressures created by the hydraulic pumps/motors.
BigAl
Gone But Not Forgotten
mtntopper said:
Thanks Bill ,
My filter is on the "return to tank" side of the system . Will this still be a problem ??? What brand do you reconmend ? If this does not solve the problem , I am going to call a used snow cat sales company and ask who they use for repair . I assume it is probably in Sacramento or Stockton . I think it is best to stay with a company experienced in Snow cats . Maybe I should haul it up to Bill G. at Snowtrans Sales . Does he do repair work ? I'll be going right by there in about 2 weeks .
Maybe you and Janice should plan on a little vacation and come over for a few days to Elk City .
Vance
Member
Hey Al,
Don't give up too quickly - you've almost got that thing licked. I hope it is the filter that has been giving you grief and your next trip is to the snow!!
If you want, I can ask my groomer operator friend if he knows a mechanic that will make a service call to GV. He works at Boreal and I'm sure can find a lead on a good hydro guy. My neighbor also runs eqt for the county and prolly knows someone.
Vance
Don't give up too quickly - you've almost got that thing licked. I hope it is the filter that has been giving you grief and your next trip is to the snow!!
If you want, I can ask my groomer operator friend if he knows a mechanic that will make a service call to GV. He works at Boreal and I'm sure can find a lead on a good hydro guy. My neighbor also runs eqt for the county and prolly knows someone.
Vance
BigAl
Gone But Not Forgotten
Ok ,
Here's another piece of the puzzle . I removed (again) the wrong oil filter which says "Fuel Filter" on the side .
This time I cut it open to see what was inside . There are flakes of something inside the filter . And I mean big ones ! 1/4 " in diameter ?????? It almost acts like burnt flakes of old oil ??? The wrong filter was a 10 micron filter so I would imagine it is just to fine(Micron) and completely plugged up with this crap .The return line from the hydros goes through this filter before going to the oil cooler and then to the oil tank . IF the pumps could not dischage the oil fast enough would that caviate the system ???
Ok .. Now the $64 dollar question .... Where is this crap coming from ??? Tank was clean at rebuild , all new hoses were installed . Oil coolers were plugged and set aside for future reinstall . Will the pumps pass this crap to the new correct hyd filter or are they plugged up too ???
I have determined which oil line is suction now and did find one loose fitting ,under the bottom of the hydro . I do not think it was leaking but I got another full turn on it . I still have the line to hook back up and refill with new atf before giving it another run .
Any suggestions ?????
Here's another piece of the puzzle . I removed (again) the wrong oil filter which says "Fuel Filter" on the side .
This time I cut it open to see what was inside . There are flakes of something inside the filter . And I mean big ones ! 1/4 " in diameter ?????? It almost acts like burnt flakes of old oil ??? The wrong filter was a 10 micron filter so I would imagine it is just to fine(Micron) and completely plugged up with this crap .The return line from the hydros goes through this filter before going to the oil cooler and then to the oil tank . IF the pumps could not dischage the oil fast enough would that caviate the system ???
Ok .. Now the $64 dollar question .... Where is this crap coming from ??? Tank was clean at rebuild , all new hoses were installed . Oil coolers were plugged and set aside for future reinstall . Will the pumps pass this crap to the new correct hyd filter or are they plugged up too ???
I have determined which oil line is suction now and did find one loose fitting ,under the bottom of the hydro . I do not think it was leaking but I got another full turn on it . I still have the line to hook back up and refill with new atf before giving it another run .
Any suggestions ?????