Snowy Rivers
Well-known member
Where is it being held ????
-
Please be sure to read the rules and adhere to them. Some banned members have complained that they are not spammers. But they spammed us. Some even tried to redirect our members to other forums. Duh. Be smart. Read the rules and adhere to them and we will all get along just fine. Cheers. :beer: Link to the rules: https://www.forumsforums.com/threads/forum-rules-info.2974/
Astro van cat conversion
- Thread starter Snowy Rivers
- Start date
Snowy Rivers
Well-known member
I just looked it up..Wallowa lake.....
I would love to come.....
Will have to see what shakes....
Big issue with the 2100 and FrankenCat conversions of same ....is the size....Even with the tracks cut down to single 44" grousers ....The beast is 11' 4" wide.....Big boy....
Drop the tracks...Roll them up and load them on the trailer....Winch the cat on the trailer.....
A 102" wide trailer will haul the cat ...No sweat.....Cat is 92" center/center on the guide wheels.
Moving the cat ready to go is a pain...Permits and such....
I would love to come.....
Will have to see what shakes....
Big issue with the 2100 and FrankenCat conversions of same ....is the size....Even with the tracks cut down to single 44" grousers ....The beast is 11' 4" wide.....Big boy....
Drop the tracks...Roll them up and load them on the trailer....Winch the cat on the trailer.....
A 102" wide trailer will haul the cat ...No sweat.....Cat is 92" center/center on the guide wheels.
Moving the cat ready to go is a pain...Permits and such....
Snowy Rivers
Well-known member
WARNING......inappropriate setup and operation of machinery....DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME
After getting the piece of aluminum for the valance whacked out of the odd piece I was able to get on the cheap....The one saw cut edge was a tad scruffy....ACTUALLY A LOT SCRUFFY ...And the finished part was about 3/16" or so too wide.
Grinding/sanding was not looking great...?????????????????? Hmmmmmm....Maybe we can get it in the mill vise ?????????
The part is 7" + wide and 66" long.....
Gotta hold that thin material so it can be cut.....Grabbed a chunk of 2x8 laying in my pile of blocking and cut it down to just under 7" wide...Tossed it in the vise and slipped the aluminum sheet in along side.....MAYBE????/
Grabbed a 1" four flute end mill and tried a light cut.....Actually worked well....Better after adding vise tongs on each end to stabilize the part....
Cut...move the sheet...cut....move the sheet.....OH CHIT....Part is hitting the tool box.....Coax the sheet around the tool box....
After about 30 minutes this bad boy was at 7" wide spot on with a nice even edge.....
Today we need to cut two notches in the middle of the sheet at the lower edge to allow the part to slip past the rubber radiator mounts that stick above the mounting plate....
Also need to cut a relief for the AIR BLEED VALVE (Not yet in the plug that welds into the radiator filler)
One thing at a time....
After getting the part to slip in under the lower edge of the grille....Then the corners need to be massaged to fit around each end of the grille...
The corners are going to be a slow process with a dead blow soft hammer and probably a piece of well casing or ????? Whatever presents itself as making a good radius...
Once the thing fits.... the two angle brackets (Shown earlier) need to get mounted.....I was going to tig weld these in place....Decided to get things positioned and then bolt them from the bottom of the spot on the radiator hold down plate using flat head Allen screws.....Easier to replace if need be.....
After getting the piece of aluminum for the valance whacked out of the odd piece I was able to get on the cheap....The one saw cut edge was a tad scruffy....ACTUALLY A LOT SCRUFFY ...And the finished part was about 3/16" or so too wide.
Grinding/sanding was not looking great...?????????????????? Hmmmmmm....Maybe we can get it in the mill vise ?????????
The part is 7" + wide and 66" long.....
Gotta hold that thin material so it can be cut.....Grabbed a chunk of 2x8 laying in my pile of blocking and cut it down to just under 7" wide...Tossed it in the vise and slipped the aluminum sheet in along side.....MAYBE????/
Grabbed a 1" four flute end mill and tried a light cut.....Actually worked well....Better after adding vise tongs on each end to stabilize the part....
Cut...move the sheet...cut....move the sheet.....OH CHIT....Part is hitting the tool box.....Coax the sheet around the tool box....
After about 30 minutes this bad boy was at 7" wide spot on with a nice even edge.....
Today we need to cut two notches in the middle of the sheet at the lower edge to allow the part to slip past the rubber radiator mounts that stick above the mounting plate....
Also need to cut a relief for the AIR BLEED VALVE (Not yet in the plug that welds into the radiator filler)
One thing at a time....
After getting the part to slip in under the lower edge of the grille....Then the corners need to be massaged to fit around each end of the grille...
The corners are going to be a slow process with a dead blow soft hammer and probably a piece of well casing or ????? Whatever presents itself as making a good radius...
Once the thing fits.... the two angle brackets (Shown earlier) need to get mounted.....I was going to tig weld these in place....Decided to get things positioned and then bolt them from the bottom of the spot on the radiator hold down plate using flat head Allen screws.....Easier to replace if need be.....
Attachments
Snowy Rivers
Well-known member
Got after the valance panel this morning....Machined the clearance notches for the upper radiator rubber mounts.
Did a bit of massaging on the outer 8" or so to allow the aluminum to pass under the grille and then wrap around the corner of the fender....
Also..
The tool to add the bead on the lower radiator tube arrived.
Had to get it out of the box and play with it on a scrap of the tube that was left over...
Adding a bit of grease to the Dies makes the tool work sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeet
A couple pics..One of the smooth end of the tubing and one after the tool did it's job.....PERFECT...$50 WELL SPENT
The valance panel nearing completion .....Tomorrow we need to mount the angle brackets that hold the valance...
I need to add a piece of aluminum flat bar at each end to allow the assembly to fasten to the fender such that tools can easily remove the bolts....
I would love a fresh grille....But this one has life left in it...A couple of the mounting holes are not the greatest....A new one is $100 ++ ....Maybe later after the cat is finished a fresh grille can be put in...
There are some really nice after market grilles....
Also....A name for the cat has been chosen...SPINDRIFT-6.7L
Spindrift is mountaineering slang term for the icy wispy crystals that blow off of cornices and mountain peaks...And other places....
In nautical terms...Early sailors called the froth that blew off of huge waves at sea...Spindrift.
The 6.7L being the power plant....The engine is actually a 6.66 liter 406 Cubes....Round it up...6.7L
TRY TO LOOK COOL....
Did a bit of massaging on the outer 8" or so to allow the aluminum to pass under the grille and then wrap around the corner of the fender....
Also..
The tool to add the bead on the lower radiator tube arrived.
Had to get it out of the box and play with it on a scrap of the tube that was left over...
Adding a bit of grease to the Dies makes the tool work sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeet
A couple pics..One of the smooth end of the tubing and one after the tool did it's job.....PERFECT...$50 WELL SPENT
The valance panel nearing completion .....Tomorrow we need to mount the angle brackets that hold the valance...
I need to add a piece of aluminum flat bar at each end to allow the assembly to fasten to the fender such that tools can easily remove the bolts....
I would love a fresh grille....But this one has life left in it...A couple of the mounting holes are not the greatest....A new one is $100 ++ ....Maybe later after the cat is finished a fresh grille can be put in...
There are some really nice after market grilles....
Also....A name for the cat has been chosen...SPINDRIFT-6.7L
Spindrift is mountaineering slang term for the icy wispy crystals that blow off of cornices and mountain peaks...And other places....
In nautical terms...Early sailors called the froth that blew off of huge waves at sea...Spindrift.
The 6.7L being the power plant....The engine is actually a 6.66 liter 406 Cubes....Round it up...6.7L
TRY TO LOOK COOL....
Attachments
more custom inspiration, old dodge van
Last edited:
vintagebike
Well-known member
Snowy Rivers
Well-known member
I like it....
There have been several 2100's modified with various body swaps...
The 2100 chassis with it's full tub chassis and the outer frame and axles were really rugged.....The front axles get beat up pretty bad at times....But the tubs really held up well...
Not nearly as prone to cracking all over like some of the smaller machines.....
My body swap has the body parts mounted using the original GM biscuits as they had when new....Just added some tube steel cross members over the top of the tub...
PP
That is indeed a creation....What is the body on the cat...????? Early Dodge van ????
The screen work is a bit over the top????? Wonder what this kitties job was ...???
There have been several 2100's modified with various body swaps...
The 2100 chassis with it's full tub chassis and the outer frame and axles were really rugged.....The front axles get beat up pretty bad at times....But the tubs really held up well...
Not nearly as prone to cracking all over like some of the smaller machines.....
My body swap has the body parts mounted using the original GM biscuits as they had when new....Just added some tube steel cross members over the top of the tub...
PP
That is indeed a creation....What is the body on the cat...????? Early Dodge van ????
The screen work is a bit over the top????? Wonder what this kitties job was ...???
Snowy Rivers
Well-known member
Finished up the Valance panel today....Had the radiator hold down on and off several times to get the mounts for the valance all squared away.....
The outer corners were a bit of a pain.....The area at the corner of the grille is a bit sketchy....There is minimal room in that area to try and fold the tread plate in.....
Decided to keep it just off the fender and made a little block to bolt to the fender...Then rolled the lower edge down so it is not a place to catch clothes on when climbing up around the font end....
A few pics
Corners and face on view...An inside view showing the mounting for the valance....
Pretty much done....
A couple "Air dam plates" still needed to cover the last areas where the fan can suck air in the sides of the shroud.
The areas in the original wheel house will need a cover that can easily go in and out....
Will Imagineer on that.....
Not in a big sweat....The entire body must come off to allow getting the new engine in....Plus getting the drive shaft finished and in.....
The fuel tanks go in the aft wheel house areas...a 15 gallon tank on each side......
Tanks area available with gauge senders that will work with the original GM S10 dash gauge...
Will do a tank selector and gauge selector switch.....May go with a factory electric switcher....May do a manual valve and a switch to change the gauge from tank to tank...Not sure yet...
All sorts of goodies yet to work with.....
The outer corners were a bit of a pain.....The area at the corner of the grille is a bit sketchy....There is minimal room in that area to try and fold the tread plate in.....
Decided to keep it just off the fender and made a little block to bolt to the fender...Then rolled the lower edge down so it is not a place to catch clothes on when climbing up around the font end....
A few pics
Corners and face on view...An inside view showing the mounting for the valance....
Pretty much done....
A couple "Air dam plates" still needed to cover the last areas where the fan can suck air in the sides of the shroud.
The areas in the original wheel house will need a cover that can easily go in and out....
Will Imagineer on that.....
Not in a big sweat....The entire body must come off to allow getting the new engine in....Plus getting the drive shaft finished and in.....
The fuel tanks go in the aft wheel house areas...a 15 gallon tank on each side......
Tanks area available with gauge senders that will work with the original GM S10 dash gauge...
Will do a tank selector and gauge selector switch.....May go with a factory electric switcher....May do a manual valve and a switch to change the gauge from tank to tank...Not sure yet...
All sorts of goodies yet to work with.....
Attachments
Snowy Rivers
Well-known member
Stopped off at the metal yard yesterday and got a 2" wide strip of 16 Ga aluminum tread plate...Decided to make some nice covers for the front turn signals.
A bit of pizzzzazzzzz....
Still need to make the other side.....Picked up some LED LAMPS....
A bit of pizzzzazzzzz....
Still need to make the other side.....Picked up some LED LAMPS....
Attachments
Snowy Rivers
Well-known member
This afternoon I got the LH light finished.
Decided that mounting the lights on the top bar of the radiator mounting frame was a better plan the trying to coax the grommets to fit into the thicker aluminum...
Just grabbed a couple ready made brackets at the trailer shop and called it good...Then formed the aluminum covers.
Starting to look pretty good me thinks..........
Decided that mounting the lights on the top bar of the radiator mounting frame was a better plan the trying to coax the grommets to fit into the thicker aluminum...
Just grabbed a couple ready made brackets at the trailer shop and called it good...Then formed the aluminum covers.
Starting to look pretty good me thinks..........
Attachments
Your getting the gaps filled in pretty good. Hind sight is always 20/20 but if you had cut the 2100 tub down some before mounting the body it would have looked more like the Van picture pontoon princess posted, with the body just above the tracks. Might of made it easier to work on things as well.
Snowy Rivers
Well-known member
Yes it would have dropped the body some.....But...Keep in mind...The structural integrity of the 2100 tub is in the formed flange at the top.. 10 gauge sheet metal ...formed in sections and welded together and then the tub is bolted to the tubular steel outer frame...Axles are bolted to the frame and the body .....Make an extremely strong assembly
Cutting the tub down would have seriously weakened the structure.....The large flange at the top of the tub adds a huge amount of strength ....As I mentioned before ..The 2100 has a strong chassis that was not prone to cracking.....
The engine/trans mounts are anchored to the sheet metal sides of the tub....This is the way these cats were done....The tub is closed on the bottom too...
When I swapped in the small block chevy I used an off the shelf (Hot rod parts) tubular cradle that bolts to the side of the tub......The big Ford was done similar....
Actually the tub as it is made it very easy to mount the S-10..(Or any other body) and use the factory mounts for the body.
The small amount of extra height is not an issue.....Great visibility from up in the cab.....The current set up puts the drivers seat about 18"-24" or so higher than the 2100 was..... The CG is still very good with all the drive train and the chassis as low as it is ....
I still wish we could have done the Astro.....Sadly we don't have any way to lift it here....
The "Modular approach " has made most of the access to the engine for normal service very easy.
Yessss...To remove/replace the engine and tranny the cab must come off....The package comes out in one chunk....
With the power pack assembled there is no way to access the flex plate bolts to be able to break the engine/trans apart....
Just how life is.....The 2100 as it shipped from Thiokol/LMC was not easy to work on UNLESS it had the tilt cab.
This cat did have the tilt cab......I traded it for a pair of tracks and some other goodies...
The way things are now there is plenty of room to stand under the front wheel house and stay dry if you needed to do ???? and the weather is crappy
One other issue that you have mentioned.....HEAT...The open area between the top of the tub and the floor of the S10 allows a lot of air to circulate down the tunnel and out the back....
The exhaust is all completed except for the tail pipes ....I left that last couple feet of exhaust off until the S-wagon body was on the back....A short bend and out each rear corner.
I am planning on adding a veranda around the rear to make access to the tail gate possible given the height of the rig...
Be able to walk down the tracks...Up a couple steps and onto a walkway across the back (Railing around the back with a gate to allow loading stuff in)
This can wait until the cat is operational......Veranda will be a bolt on modular piece
I have looked at the idea some.....It's an easy thing to do.....Plenty of material to anchor to...
The pics show the exhaust full length
The top flange of the tub is seen in detail
Cutting the tub down would have seriously weakened the structure.....The large flange at the top of the tub adds a huge amount of strength ....As I mentioned before ..The 2100 has a strong chassis that was not prone to cracking.....
The engine/trans mounts are anchored to the sheet metal sides of the tub....This is the way these cats were done....The tub is closed on the bottom too...
When I swapped in the small block chevy I used an off the shelf (Hot rod parts) tubular cradle that bolts to the side of the tub......The big Ford was done similar....
Actually the tub as it is made it very easy to mount the S-10..(Or any other body) and use the factory mounts for the body.
The small amount of extra height is not an issue.....Great visibility from up in the cab.....The current set up puts the drivers seat about 18"-24" or so higher than the 2100 was..... The CG is still very good with all the drive train and the chassis as low as it is ....
I still wish we could have done the Astro.....Sadly we don't have any way to lift it here....
The "Modular approach " has made most of the access to the engine for normal service very easy.
Yessss...To remove/replace the engine and tranny the cab must come off....The package comes out in one chunk....
With the power pack assembled there is no way to access the flex plate bolts to be able to break the engine/trans apart....
Just how life is.....The 2100 as it shipped from Thiokol/LMC was not easy to work on UNLESS it had the tilt cab.
This cat did have the tilt cab......I traded it for a pair of tracks and some other goodies...
The way things are now there is plenty of room to stand under the front wheel house and stay dry if you needed to do ???? and the weather is crappy
One other issue that you have mentioned.....HEAT...The open area between the top of the tub and the floor of the S10 allows a lot of air to circulate down the tunnel and out the back....
The exhaust is all completed except for the tail pipes ....I left that last couple feet of exhaust off until the S-wagon body was on the back....A short bend and out each rear corner.
I am planning on adding a veranda around the rear to make access to the tail gate possible given the height of the rig...
Be able to walk down the tracks...Up a couple steps and onto a walkway across the back (Railing around the back with a gate to allow loading stuff in)
This can wait until the cat is operational......Veranda will be a bolt on modular piece
I have looked at the idea some.....It's an easy thing to do.....Plenty of material to anchor to...
The pics show the exhaust full length
The top flange of the tub is seen in detail
Attachments
Last edited:
Snowy Rivers
Well-known member
More early pics
Engine lift.....Mounting, drive shaft
The engine in the pics is a 305 CORE I picked up cheap with the TH350 trans to use as mock up for mounts
The final fit will be a 1980 400 small block chevy with 1998 L31 350 Vortec heads and the accessory brackets from the 98 as well...
Couple pics of the L31
I got the engine complete with all the brackets GUTS FEATHERS AND ALL.
The only parts that will get used are the heads, center bolt valve covers, serpentine brackets and accessories
I have not yet purchased an intake for the Vortec heads yet....Some options
The remainder of the L31 was sold to pay for what I wanted,,,,PLUS SOME $
The drive shaft is an S10 EXTREME "Double Double" (Double cardan joints on both ends plus a short single cardan shaft section at the tranny end....) Very forgiving as far as angles.....
Uses a 4 bolt flange at the rear.....I made an adapter to connect to the OC-12
The 4 bolt square flange is from a 1953 GMC (M211) 2-1/2 ton 6x6 New in the box.
Had to modify it to the same length as the OC-12 yoke
This kept the S-10 parts theme all the way through...At least for the most part.....
Those Extreme shafts are tough to find.
Too many folks did not grease the centering ball in the Double Cardan joint and the ball wears out....Then the shaft vibrates BIG TIME
So most were replaced with a two piece shaft single cardan joint style.....They were not as smooth as the Double Double....But could be ignored and not serviced and still do fairly well......
I need to cut and shorten the short shaft section a bit.....Then I will get the entire assembly balanced for high speed.
I need to pick up the center bearing and fabricate the mount for it....
That will happen after the body parts are off the cat and the OC-12 is bolted in....I can align the shaft and get the angle on the shaft where I want it.
The two Double Cardan joints will allow things to find the sweet spot easily and work sweet....Having two Doubles cancels out all the speed variations so the angles can be pretty well Do a plug and play on the shaft.
The angle on the shaft is going to be fairly flat....Should be little issue....
Engine lift.....Mounting, drive shaft
The engine in the pics is a 305 CORE I picked up cheap with the TH350 trans to use as mock up for mounts
The final fit will be a 1980 400 small block chevy with 1998 L31 350 Vortec heads and the accessory brackets from the 98 as well...
Couple pics of the L31
I got the engine complete with all the brackets GUTS FEATHERS AND ALL.
The only parts that will get used are the heads, center bolt valve covers, serpentine brackets and accessories
I have not yet purchased an intake for the Vortec heads yet....Some options
The remainder of the L31 was sold to pay for what I wanted,,,,PLUS SOME $
The drive shaft is an S10 EXTREME "Double Double" (Double cardan joints on both ends plus a short single cardan shaft section at the tranny end....) Very forgiving as far as angles.....
Uses a 4 bolt flange at the rear.....I made an adapter to connect to the OC-12
The 4 bolt square flange is from a 1953 GMC (M211) 2-1/2 ton 6x6 New in the box.
Had to modify it to the same length as the OC-12 yoke
This kept the S-10 parts theme all the way through...At least for the most part.....
Those Extreme shafts are tough to find.
Too many folks did not grease the centering ball in the Double Cardan joint and the ball wears out....Then the shaft vibrates BIG TIME
So most were replaced with a two piece shaft single cardan joint style.....They were not as smooth as the Double Double....But could be ignored and not serviced and still do fairly well......
I need to cut and shorten the short shaft section a bit.....Then I will get the entire assembly balanced for high speed.
I need to pick up the center bearing and fabricate the mount for it....
That will happen after the body parts are off the cat and the OC-12 is bolted in....I can align the shaft and get the angle on the shaft where I want it.
The two Double Cardan joints will allow things to find the sweet spot easily and work sweet....Having two Doubles cancels out all the speed variations so the angles can be pretty well Do a plug and play on the shaft.
The angle on the shaft is going to be fairly flat....Should be little issue....
Attachments
Snowy Rivers
Well-known member
Last night...I am laying in the sack thinking about cat things....Really smug about how well the lights came out...
Then I realized that I had NOT tried removing the valance panel before riveting the lights down to be sure the panel would clear the lights.
This morning it was/is raining...No matter....I gotta see if the panel will come off....
IT CAME OUT JUST FINE....
One issue not related to the Lights....The bolt that goes into the fender is a real booger to get the nut behind the fender and even getting the bolt in required a long locking needle nose pliers to get the bolt in the hole.....
Even then getting a wrench in there was nasty......
Sooooo...Decided to make a "Nut bar" out of aluminum and drill and tap it.
Getting the thing situated was gonna be tough....Used a countersink and made a nice tapered lead going into the hole...
The little bar can be slid in place and the bolt tightened easily.......Much better than having to have a special wrench...plus fighting things.
A few pics.
Then I realized that I had NOT tried removing the valance panel before riveting the lights down to be sure the panel would clear the lights.
This morning it was/is raining...No matter....I gotta see if the panel will come off....
IT CAME OUT JUST FINE....
One issue not related to the Lights....The bolt that goes into the fender is a real booger to get the nut behind the fender and even getting the bolt in required a long locking needle nose pliers to get the bolt in the hole.....
Even then getting a wrench in there was nasty......
Sooooo...Decided to make a "Nut bar" out of aluminum and drill and tap it.
Getting the thing situated was gonna be tough....Used a countersink and made a nice tapered lead going into the hole...
The little bar can be slid in place and the bolt tightened easily.......Much better than having to have a special wrench...plus fighting things.
A few pics.
Attachments
Snowy Rivers
Well-known member
Been a nothing few days lately.....
Sort of taking a break from thrashing on the cat...
Still doing planning and things....Just not getting dirty....
With summer winding down it is time to think about the engine build.
I dragged out the box of engine parts (Bearings and such) and going to get the engine block ready to drop the crankshaft in...
The crank is a nice used one I scored from the engine rebuilders supply over in Troutdale
Standard all the way.....Nothing fancy...Just a good stock 400 SBC crank.
Crank has been standing in the corner for some time now and is filthy.....
Need to wash that beast up and clean off all the dust and such....Flush out the oil passages and inspect all the journals.
400 SBC cranks are slightly different than a SBC 350 crank......Main journals are larger on the 400 at 2.650" as opposed to the 350 at 2.45" Rod journals are he same at 2.10"
Stroke on the 400 is 3.750" compared to the 350 at 3.48"
The 400 uses a shorter rod length at 5.565" than the 350 at 5.7"
The reasoning on the short rod has to do with the piston used.....The engineers did not want the piston pins into the ring package...... (Compression height and other tech stuff)
The shorter rod length does tend to add a bit more sideways pressure on the pistons as opposed to the longer 5.7" rods.
Not a big deal for an engine that will be running in the 4000/4500 RPM range MAXIMUM
The 400 SBC also has siamese cylinders bores . At 4.125" stock (We are at 4.155 oversize) there is no water flow between the cylinders due to the large bores.....
A pair of coolant passages (Peculiar to the 400) are in the block between the center cylinders on each side of center to allow trapped air or STEAM to escape to the heads......Also peculiar to the 400 are the matching holes in the heads...
We are using late model Vortec (1998 L31) heads on this build.....The heads have been drilled to match the "Steam holes" in the block....
Also the Vortec engines use a slightly different coolant bypass set up than the earlier engines.. (Gen1) We modified the RH head to match the bypass passage in the 400 block......We are using the earlier CCW rotating (Serpentine belt system) water pump that has the bypass hole on the RH side of the block (3 holes ) Gen 1 block
Using the later coolant bypass system has more hoses and the pump does not have a passage on the RH side.....The passage in the block must be plugged or it will dump coolant all over.....Many articles have been written on the subject.....Bottom line.....cOOLANT MUST circulate constantly through the block/heads to avoid steam pockets and over heating during warmup and any time the T STAT is closed......
So I decided on a combination of the two systems .......Also adding a small air bleed hole in the T STAT is a good idea to eliminate air locks during the coolant fill process.....1/16" to 1/8" hole in the outer part of the stat is all that is needed.
Some stats have a bleed hole with a little valve to do the same thing......
Bottom line......Getting all the different generations of "Mouse motor" parts to play well with each other can be an interesting experience...
IF A LATE WATER PUMP is used that does not have the extra hole on the PASSENGER SIDE of the pump where it bolts to the block MUST use the coolant bypass hose from the intake to the pump....And on the early blocks the bypass passage in the block must be tapped and plugged.
WHY AM I USING THE EARLY PUMP.???? The early serpentine pump has the 4 bolt flange to attach the fan clutch/pulley and the smaller fan sizes that fit the fan shroud all work....Pumps all move the same amount of coolant .....
Why are things different ??????
I can't find any real info on why GM changed things.....My feeling is they decided to cut machining costs ...Less passages to drill and such.....Rubber hose is cheap.....
But...What we have should work sweet......
Still lamenting on which intake manifold to get.....Vortec intakes have 8 bolts the go straight up and down....Not on an angle parallel to the ports as in past engines.
Several manufactures offer intakes for theVortec heads.....
Ah well......
I have the high capacity oil pan with windage tray and gates.....Will grab a high volume oil pump and the oil pickup that works with the pan
With all the issues surrounding cam failures in flat tappet hydraulic cams (Oil now has very little ZDDP) and the lifters available at mostly sourced off shore....JUNK
Waste a cam and its a tear down to clean up the mess....
Decided to go with a roller cam.....I am not happy about the price $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ but wasting a fresh engine is not gonna cut it..
Flat tappet cams have not been used in factory engines for a long time as the EPA required manufactures to guarantee the catalytic converters for 100,000 miles ....ZDDP and Phosphorous will kill a converter.....Hence the big reduction in the two additives that keep a flat tappet cam alive....
This is why roller lifters came into common use in the 90's and not just a high performance item.....
So my choice to go roller is pretty much made.....I can't afford the gamble......
A few things must be added to the mix.....A cam thrust button needs to be in the mix....Have decided to go with a Cloyes 9-221 aluminum cover with adjustable thrust button (Bearing type)
The rest of the timing set up....Pretty much standard roller chain...
Going to use a Marine cam 495/503 lift (Comp cams XM270HR)
We machined the heads (Valve guides) to allow more than stock lift......
The chosen cam has a rated power range of 1500- 5500
The lobe design is better suited to steady high RPM as opposed to the RPM of a street engine.....(That is the cam folks talking)
This cam in 406 inches will have a commanding presence....But be quite happy with a stock stall converter in the tranny.
So many things to consider when making a Franken mutt engine
When I get the engine out in a day or two I will get pics of things....
Sort of taking a break from thrashing on the cat...
Still doing planning and things....Just not getting dirty....
With summer winding down it is time to think about the engine build.
I dragged out the box of engine parts (Bearings and such) and going to get the engine block ready to drop the crankshaft in...
The crank is a nice used one I scored from the engine rebuilders supply over in Troutdale
Standard all the way.....Nothing fancy...Just a good stock 400 SBC crank.
Crank has been standing in the corner for some time now and is filthy.....
Need to wash that beast up and clean off all the dust and such....Flush out the oil passages and inspect all the journals.
400 SBC cranks are slightly different than a SBC 350 crank......Main journals are larger on the 400 at 2.650" as opposed to the 350 at 2.45" Rod journals are he same at 2.10"
Stroke on the 400 is 3.750" compared to the 350 at 3.48"
The 400 uses a shorter rod length at 5.565" than the 350 at 5.7"
The reasoning on the short rod has to do with the piston used.....The engineers did not want the piston pins into the ring package...... (Compression height and other tech stuff)
The shorter rod length does tend to add a bit more sideways pressure on the pistons as opposed to the longer 5.7" rods.
Not a big deal for an engine that will be running in the 4000/4500 RPM range MAXIMUM
The 400 SBC also has siamese cylinders bores . At 4.125" stock (We are at 4.155 oversize) there is no water flow between the cylinders due to the large bores.....
A pair of coolant passages (Peculiar to the 400) are in the block between the center cylinders on each side of center to allow trapped air or STEAM to escape to the heads......Also peculiar to the 400 are the matching holes in the heads...
We are using late model Vortec (1998 L31) heads on this build.....The heads have been drilled to match the "Steam holes" in the block....
Also the Vortec engines use a slightly different coolant bypass set up than the earlier engines.. (Gen1) We modified the RH head to match the bypass passage in the 400 block......We are using the earlier CCW rotating (Serpentine belt system) water pump that has the bypass hole on the RH side of the block (3 holes ) Gen 1 block
Using the later coolant bypass system has more hoses and the pump does not have a passage on the RH side.....The passage in the block must be plugged or it will dump coolant all over.....Many articles have been written on the subject.....Bottom line.....cOOLANT MUST circulate constantly through the block/heads to avoid steam pockets and over heating during warmup and any time the T STAT is closed......
So I decided on a combination of the two systems .......Also adding a small air bleed hole in the T STAT is a good idea to eliminate air locks during the coolant fill process.....1/16" to 1/8" hole in the outer part of the stat is all that is needed.
Some stats have a bleed hole with a little valve to do the same thing......
Bottom line......Getting all the different generations of "Mouse motor" parts to play well with each other can be an interesting experience...
IF A LATE WATER PUMP is used that does not have the extra hole on the PASSENGER SIDE of the pump where it bolts to the block MUST use the coolant bypass hose from the intake to the pump....And on the early blocks the bypass passage in the block must be tapped and plugged.
WHY AM I USING THE EARLY PUMP.???? The early serpentine pump has the 4 bolt flange to attach the fan clutch/pulley and the smaller fan sizes that fit the fan shroud all work....Pumps all move the same amount of coolant .....
Why are things different ??????
I can't find any real info on why GM changed things.....My feeling is they decided to cut machining costs ...Less passages to drill and such.....Rubber hose is cheap.....
But...What we have should work sweet......
Still lamenting on which intake manifold to get.....Vortec intakes have 8 bolts the go straight up and down....Not on an angle parallel to the ports as in past engines.
Several manufactures offer intakes for theVortec heads.....
Ah well......
I have the high capacity oil pan with windage tray and gates.....Will grab a high volume oil pump and the oil pickup that works with the pan
With all the issues surrounding cam failures in flat tappet hydraulic cams (Oil now has very little ZDDP) and the lifters available at mostly sourced off shore....JUNK
Waste a cam and its a tear down to clean up the mess....
Decided to go with a roller cam.....I am not happy about the price $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ but wasting a fresh engine is not gonna cut it..
Flat tappet cams have not been used in factory engines for a long time as the EPA required manufactures to guarantee the catalytic converters for 100,000 miles ....ZDDP and Phosphorous will kill a converter.....Hence the big reduction in the two additives that keep a flat tappet cam alive....
This is why roller lifters came into common use in the 90's and not just a high performance item.....
So my choice to go roller is pretty much made.....I can't afford the gamble......
A few things must be added to the mix.....A cam thrust button needs to be in the mix....Have decided to go with a Cloyes 9-221 aluminum cover with adjustable thrust button (Bearing type)
The rest of the timing set up....Pretty much standard roller chain...
Going to use a Marine cam 495/503 lift (Comp cams XM270HR)
We machined the heads (Valve guides) to allow more than stock lift......
The chosen cam has a rated power range of 1500- 5500
The lobe design is better suited to steady high RPM as opposed to the RPM of a street engine.....(That is the cam folks talking)
This cam in 406 inches will have a commanding presence....But be quite happy with a stock stall converter in the tranny.
So many things to consider when making a Franken mutt engine
When I get the engine out in a day or two I will get pics of things....
Last edited:
Making the decision to go with a roller cam was a wise one.
Snowy Rivers
Well-known member
I agree on the roller cam.
Just way too much junk lifters coming in from across the pond.....
The roller package is about the only good option.......
I got the block outside in the bright light and started getting ready to put the crank in....
The crank came out of a complete engine.....
I get the crank out onto a pallet to clean it and check it over....
Then the fun began......
I get things cleaned up and then found some issues....
Whoever removed the crank was not careful and dinged a rod throw with a rod bolt.....
Gotta stuff a chunk of fuel hose over the bolts before knocking those bad boys out....
The one throw had a ding or two to clean up....The main journals were not damaged.
The rear seal surface was cruded up and had a bit of surface rust...(Probably had been sitting in the rain outdoors)
The biggest issue was how sharp the oil holes in the journals and throws were......Sharp enough that sliding a finger across the hole would take off hide....
One rod throw has bearing material in one of the oil holes....Way too sharp.
The only real way to do this is by hand.....
Factory cranks are just as machined.....It is a wonder that the bearing did not fail and ruin the crank.
Decided to do it like we used to on the race boat engines....Take the dumore and a small stone and chamfer the holes all around.
I have not done that job in nearly 40 years.....Tedious ......I need to get a couple cratex flame points and finish up the job on the oil passage openings onto the bearings....
Need to get a roll of 400 grit every 1" wide and polish all the bearing surfaces.....
The crank is nice....Just needs a little TLC.....I wish my lathe could handle it.....
Gonna have to do it the old fashioned way....Like shining a pair of boots.....Just want to be sure we do not have anything rough on the bearing surfaces...
Going to install Aluminum Silicon bearings in this build.....I have always used Clevite 77 stuff.....I ordered engine tech shells for this unit.......
The engine tech bearings have good reviews...They used to be used by the IROC Racers....
Many pros and cons about the aluminum bearings....As many stories as there are folks to ask...
They do have some good points.....The big issue as to why these are popular....Most auto makers are using them to help eliminate lead in used oil......Another bad bad lead thing.
So the crank did not go in today.....But we are closer....
The timing sprocket on the crank was a bitch to get off....It had a nasty burr in the bore that raised a nerf on the crank..
Cleaned that mess up....The woodruff keys in the crank snout were trash....Crank looks fine.....
A couple crank snout keys and we are good....Fresh timing set.....
400 SBC cranks are scarce these days....Mine is a standard size too.... I do not want to buy an after market Scat crank.....
The stock unit will be fine.....
I cleaned up the output flange and checked out the threads that hold the flex plate on......OK....
A few pics
The 509 block
The 400 came in 3 different casting numbers (Last 3 digits) 817....509....511
There were 2 bolt blocks and 4 bolt blocks.....The 509 is a 2 bolt main and is in the urban legends book as the best block to use....The 817 being the worst.
The 400 also came with 3 core plugs in the side on some early blocks...Some had 2 plugs, some had 3 and some had an unfinished boss in the middle area....
We are using all brass soft plugs to help eliminate plug rot .....
All other stuff on the engine is pretty much good old SBC goodies......
The red circles around the oil passages are to mark each as having been chamfered.....
A forged steel crank would be cool.....Not on this build I'm afraid.....Good old MA GENERAL nodular iron....
Stock set of Ma General 5.560" Con Rods and a fresh set of Silvolite 1443 pistons....
Brand X moly rings......
The numbers all crunch up to indicate this assembly should yield a 9.4:1 or so compression ratio
The Vortec heads with the smaller chamber helped a bunch in that department.....
I am sure it will make more than enough power/torque to do the job....Or break stuff trying....
Just way too much junk lifters coming in from across the pond.....
The roller package is about the only good option.......
I got the block outside in the bright light and started getting ready to put the crank in....
The crank came out of a complete engine.....
I get the crank out onto a pallet to clean it and check it over....
Then the fun began......
I get things cleaned up and then found some issues....
Whoever removed the crank was not careful and dinged a rod throw with a rod bolt.....
Gotta stuff a chunk of fuel hose over the bolts before knocking those bad boys out....
The one throw had a ding or two to clean up....The main journals were not damaged.
The rear seal surface was cruded up and had a bit of surface rust...(Probably had been sitting in the rain outdoors)
The biggest issue was how sharp the oil holes in the journals and throws were......Sharp enough that sliding a finger across the hole would take off hide....
One rod throw has bearing material in one of the oil holes....Way too sharp.
The only real way to do this is by hand.....
Factory cranks are just as machined.....It is a wonder that the bearing did not fail and ruin the crank.
Decided to do it like we used to on the race boat engines....Take the dumore and a small stone and chamfer the holes all around.
I have not done that job in nearly 40 years.....Tedious ......I need to get a couple cratex flame points and finish up the job on the oil passage openings onto the bearings....
Need to get a roll of 400 grit every 1" wide and polish all the bearing surfaces.....
The crank is nice....Just needs a little TLC.....I wish my lathe could handle it.....
Gonna have to do it the old fashioned way....Like shining a pair of boots.....Just want to be sure we do not have anything rough on the bearing surfaces...
Going to install Aluminum Silicon bearings in this build.....I have always used Clevite 77 stuff.....I ordered engine tech shells for this unit.......
The engine tech bearings have good reviews...They used to be used by the IROC Racers....
Many pros and cons about the aluminum bearings....As many stories as there are folks to ask...
They do have some good points.....The big issue as to why these are popular....Most auto makers are using them to help eliminate lead in used oil......Another bad bad lead thing.
So the crank did not go in today.....But we are closer....
The timing sprocket on the crank was a bitch to get off....It had a nasty burr in the bore that raised a nerf on the crank..
Cleaned that mess up....The woodruff keys in the crank snout were trash....Crank looks fine.....
A couple crank snout keys and we are good....Fresh timing set.....
400 SBC cranks are scarce these days....Mine is a standard size too.... I do not want to buy an after market Scat crank.....
The stock unit will be fine.....
I cleaned up the output flange and checked out the threads that hold the flex plate on......OK....
A few pics
The 509 block
The 400 came in 3 different casting numbers (Last 3 digits) 817....509....511
There were 2 bolt blocks and 4 bolt blocks.....The 509 is a 2 bolt main and is in the urban legends book as the best block to use....The 817 being the worst.
The 400 also came with 3 core plugs in the side on some early blocks...Some had 2 plugs, some had 3 and some had an unfinished boss in the middle area....
We are using all brass soft plugs to help eliminate plug rot .....
All other stuff on the engine is pretty much good old SBC goodies......
The red circles around the oil passages are to mark each as having been chamfered.....
A forged steel crank would be cool.....Not on this build I'm afraid.....Good old MA GENERAL nodular iron....
Stock set of Ma General 5.560" Con Rods and a fresh set of Silvolite 1443 pistons....
Brand X moly rings......
The numbers all crunch up to indicate this assembly should yield a 9.4:1 or so compression ratio
The Vortec heads with the smaller chamber helped a bunch in that department.....
I am sure it will make more than enough power/torque to do the job....Or break stuff trying....
Attachments
Snowy Rivers
Well-known member
No worries.....400 is fine for a polish ....I have used 400 or 600 for a light polish....
WE HAVE OTHER ISSUES
After I posted last I was back in the shop and had the crank on the bench chasing the threads where the flex plate bolts on....All looks fine.....Decided to use a "Whip stick" and polish the pilot bore where the converter snout goes in.....
Got that cleaned out....Just a bit of crud from years of service.....Then the ugly truth came to light....
I had the shaft laying just right and the light was perfect to see a strange shadow in the pilot bore. ??????????
I grabbed a pen light and went snooping....OH !@#$%^ Got my finger in the bore and discovered a nasty groove worn in one side......
THIS IS ONLY CAUSED BY ONE THING.....Bad converter......A rebuilt converter that has the drive end snout replaced and was not concentric ....This causes the converter to wobble.....I had one of these one time that was so bad that the side mirrors on the truck shook when you rev'd the engine.
Took me a while to figure it out.....
I had rebuilt the tranny and so it was obvious that the issue was there.....Finally took the converter to a shop I worked at then and stuck it in a lathe....OMG THE COVERTER WOBBLED LIKE A BUTTON ON A CHIT HOUSE DOOR.
The rebuilder finally replaced the converter.....After much saber rattling......
Anyway....that worn out pilot bore is a deal breaker on the crank....It could be bore out and a sleeve installed....My lathe is not long enough to do it.....Paying a shop to do it is not worth the $$$$$
Fooling around with a 40 plus year old crank that has been beat this bad is not gonna happen on my watch....
I am not pleased at all.....But when you buy used parts....It can happen.....I watched the crank being taken from a complete engine......Had the bore been clean I would not have spotted the issue.....
Using this crank is like sitting on a damned bomb.....Failure will be very costly.......
At the moment I am looking at a Scat crank.......I have used these in the past and had very good results.....
A sad deal......but this stuff happens......
I have spent the $$$$ to be sure the block is good....Also had the Vortec heads checked completely....Rods all reworked and checked.....Spending the big $$$$ for a roller cam.....
Sticking this POS crank in the build.....NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...
Gotta call Scat when they open and ask a couple ??????
Since I already have STD bearings I want a STD crank.....
A fresh zero time crank is a good thing.
If the crank did not have this issue I would use it....But to wear the pilot as much as it is on the one side (1/8") The amount of stress that has been placed on the crank is off in the ozones.....That amount of wear took a long time.....On an iron crank.....The next thing you will hear is a big BANG.....
Running at 4000 RPM plus for long periods .....although not extreme....Could break the camels back....
Will post more when I know more......
WE HAVE OTHER ISSUES
After I posted last I was back in the shop and had the crank on the bench chasing the threads where the flex plate bolts on....All looks fine.....Decided to use a "Whip stick" and polish the pilot bore where the converter snout goes in.....
Got that cleaned out....Just a bit of crud from years of service.....Then the ugly truth came to light....
I had the shaft laying just right and the light was perfect to see a strange shadow in the pilot bore. ??????????
I grabbed a pen light and went snooping....OH !@#$%^ Got my finger in the bore and discovered a nasty groove worn in one side......
THIS IS ONLY CAUSED BY ONE THING.....Bad converter......A rebuilt converter that has the drive end snout replaced and was not concentric ....This causes the converter to wobble.....I had one of these one time that was so bad that the side mirrors on the truck shook when you rev'd the engine.
Took me a while to figure it out.....
I had rebuilt the tranny and so it was obvious that the issue was there.....Finally took the converter to a shop I worked at then and stuck it in a lathe....OMG THE COVERTER WOBBLED LIKE A BUTTON ON A CHIT HOUSE DOOR.
The rebuilder finally replaced the converter.....After much saber rattling......
Anyway....that worn out pilot bore is a deal breaker on the crank....It could be bore out and a sleeve installed....My lathe is not long enough to do it.....Paying a shop to do it is not worth the $$$$$
Fooling around with a 40 plus year old crank that has been beat this bad is not gonna happen on my watch....
I am not pleased at all.....But when you buy used parts....It can happen.....I watched the crank being taken from a complete engine......Had the bore been clean I would not have spotted the issue.....
Using this crank is like sitting on a damned bomb.....Failure will be very costly.......
At the moment I am looking at a Scat crank.......I have used these in the past and had very good results.....
A sad deal......but this stuff happens......
I have spent the $$$$ to be sure the block is good....Also had the Vortec heads checked completely....Rods all reworked and checked.....Spending the big $$$$ for a roller cam.....
Sticking this POS crank in the build.....NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...
Gotta call Scat when they open and ask a couple ??????
Since I already have STD bearings I want a STD crank.....
A fresh zero time crank is a good thing.
If the crank did not have this issue I would use it....But to wear the pilot as much as it is on the one side (1/8") The amount of stress that has been placed on the crank is off in the ozones.....That amount of wear took a long time.....On an iron crank.....The next thing you will hear is a big BANG.....
Running at 4000 RPM plus for long periods .....although not extreme....Could break the camels back....
Will post more when I know more......
If the Crank isn't cracked, it should still be OK. Either weld it and machine it or machine it and press in a bushing. A competent automotive machine shop should make quick work out of it. It was likely a converter issue that damaged the register., either loose bolts or loose in the transmission, Ive even heard of of just let the converter snout rest on the un damaged part of the register by locating in on the bottom then tighten the TQ bolts, with good results.
Snowy Rivers
Well-known member
Crank is not cracked....Magged good.....40 year old shaft that has been wobbled around with a bad converter has been stressed far more than I am willing to gamble on....THE BENT PAPER CLIP THING YA KNOW....
Boring out the rear of the crank is no big deal....Clean it up and press in a sleeve....Cost more than it is worth......
A Forged steel crank...Different story....at least they are far more forgiving than an iron shaft.....
A silver lining to the dark cloud though.
I thought of going with a scat crank.....They make a 3.750" stroke crank with the proper sized main journals..
The catch....They balance them to use the 5.700" 350 rods and not the 5.565" 400 rods
I have a fresh set of the 400 rods and new pistons.....I do not want to scrap this stuff and start over....The pistons that fit the 5.700" rods use a different compression height when used with the 400 crank.....Much shorter piston.....
Decided to check other crank builders....Same story.....
The choices are limited......
Back to the Rebuilders service across town.....
I called and the guys says they had recently acquired a few 400 cranks....
We tool on over and take a peek.....
A really clean crank is in the front end of the 400 rack....Hmmmmm
I checked the pilot bore....GOOD AS NEW..
GOT THE MIC'S ON THE JOURNALS.....SWEEEEEEEEEET....All standard
It gets better.
I asked the guy where it came from.....Absolutely zero oily shelac on the crank....These guys do not clean the parts.
He told me that they got in a few short blocks that came from a shop that closed in the covid thing.....
The crank in question was a new old stock unit.....It was assembled....but never run.....
Just a stock crate short block......
So the good news is we now have a really nice crank.....I am going to polish the oil hole ports to be rid of the sharp edges....Then polish the journals a touch...
The pilot bore shows zero wear.....This crank was never buckled up to a tranny.....
A few pics
Worth mentioning.....I washed off the thick grease that had been applied to the journals....Washed off real good....Then hit the crank with 180F water at high pressure from the Landa washer.
The bright steel picked up a tiny rust skim ...Seen easily in the pics.....Happens quick too..
I sprayed the crank with Skunk oil so it will not rust more....Will taker care of the sharp edges of the oil holes and then polish the journals...
Roll of polish cloth be here in the morning..
Best part....$100 got this bad boy.......
I feel very good with getting this shaft for the build......The other one would likely be fine for a grocery getter....But I am not at all warm and fuzzy with it spinning high RPM for long stretches....
Fatigue in the crank can't be measured....Good today.....Bang tomorrow....
Rear shot of the pilot bores....I did not touch the bore other than wash with degreaser and hot water.....
The rust skim from the hot water really shows in the piccy (#1 MAIN)
Boring out the rear of the crank is no big deal....Clean it up and press in a sleeve....Cost more than it is worth......
A Forged steel crank...Different story....at least they are far more forgiving than an iron shaft.....
A silver lining to the dark cloud though.
I thought of going with a scat crank.....They make a 3.750" stroke crank with the proper sized main journals..
The catch....They balance them to use the 5.700" 350 rods and not the 5.565" 400 rods
I have a fresh set of the 400 rods and new pistons.....I do not want to scrap this stuff and start over....The pistons that fit the 5.700" rods use a different compression height when used with the 400 crank.....Much shorter piston.....
Decided to check other crank builders....Same story.....
The choices are limited......
Back to the Rebuilders service across town.....
I called and the guys says they had recently acquired a few 400 cranks....
We tool on over and take a peek.....
A really clean crank is in the front end of the 400 rack....Hmmmmm
I checked the pilot bore....GOOD AS NEW..
GOT THE MIC'S ON THE JOURNALS.....SWEEEEEEEEEET....All standard
It gets better.
I asked the guy where it came from.....Absolutely zero oily shelac on the crank....These guys do not clean the parts.
He told me that they got in a few short blocks that came from a shop that closed in the covid thing.....
The crank in question was a new old stock unit.....It was assembled....but never run.....
Just a stock crate short block......
So the good news is we now have a really nice crank.....I am going to polish the oil hole ports to be rid of the sharp edges....Then polish the journals a touch...
The pilot bore shows zero wear.....This crank was never buckled up to a tranny.....
A few pics
Worth mentioning.....I washed off the thick grease that had been applied to the journals....Washed off real good....Then hit the crank with 180F water at high pressure from the Landa washer.
The bright steel picked up a tiny rust skim ...Seen easily in the pics.....Happens quick too..
I sprayed the crank with Skunk oil so it will not rust more....Will taker care of the sharp edges of the oil holes and then polish the journals...
Roll of polish cloth be here in the morning..
Best part....$100 got this bad boy.......
I feel very good with getting this shaft for the build......The other one would likely be fine for a grocery getter....But I am not at all warm and fuzzy with it spinning high RPM for long stretches....
Fatigue in the crank can't be measured....Good today.....Bang tomorrow....
Rear shot of the pilot bores....I did not touch the bore other than wash with degreaser and hot water.....
The rust skim from the hot water really shows in the piccy (#1 MAIN)
Attachments
Last edited:
If you clean bare steel or cast parts with hot water it will dry before the rust can happen
Snowy Rivers
Well-known member
This crank was not rusty until I shot it with the soap and hot water....It will polish right off.
Gotta make really sure the shaft and its passages are clean...For sure
Went to town to pick up the polishing strip....Clown forgot top order it...
So had to order it.....Supposed to be in this afternoon....Yeah right...
Gotta make really sure the shaft and its passages are clean...For sure
Went to town to pick up the polishing strip....Clown forgot top order it...
So had to order it.....Supposed to be in this afternoon....Yeah right...
Snowy Rivers
Well-known member
Great day today.....Got the roll of 400 grit emery cloth.....
Got some 220 grit sleeves for my Dremel tool....
Stopped off at home depot and grabbed a Dewalt Work table
My main bench in the shop is not such that I want grindings and washing up the crank.
Plastic work table....Perfect....Turned up some wood dowels to keep the crank from rolling off onto the concrete.
The Dremel with sanding sleeves was perfect to chamfer the oil holes....
Got some good close up shots of the oil holes too.....
Gave the shaft a good "Boot shine".....
OMG...The Hi Res pics from my iphone 14 makes the journals look like 20 miles of Death Valley fire trail.....
They are as smooth as Ma General sends them out of the factory.....
Shaft is now all done and ready for a final wash out and have the oil passages cleaned well and a blow dry....
Will clean it up and drop it right into the block..
Will check the bearing clearances with Plastigage and go from there....
With any luck we can put the shaft in with Lubriplate after we get the clearance numbers.
Have the rear main seal and a fresh set of bearings on hand.....
Getting pumped now.....
I used a brass brush on the Dremel to give the oil holes a good whizzzzz to be sure of NO BURRRRS....BEFORE THE SPIT SHINE.....
I can't beliece how sharp the oil passage holes were......Sharp enough to cut my fingers...
Nice and smooth now....A 45 degree chamfer (GENERAL IDEA) all the way around....A couple of the mains were a bitch getting the tool between the counter weights........But got it done...
Rods are easy....
Getting this sweet shaft was a real treat....Especially at this late date.....
Gonna be exciting to get the shaft in on lubed bearings and the mains torqued.....With any luck this bad boy will spin like the wind.....
Gonna use a 22 caliber cleaning rod and brass brush to give the oil passages the dutch scrub....
More tomorrow.....
With good weather this will be a fun time....Have not built a "Widdle mouse motor" in a long time....
The last engine I tossed together was a 6.5 Diesel for a pickup......
Before that....Too long ago.......
Got some 220 grit sleeves for my Dremel tool....
Stopped off at home depot and grabbed a Dewalt Work table
My main bench in the shop is not such that I want grindings and washing up the crank.
Plastic work table....Perfect....Turned up some wood dowels to keep the crank from rolling off onto the concrete.
The Dremel with sanding sleeves was perfect to chamfer the oil holes....
Got some good close up shots of the oil holes too.....
Gave the shaft a good "Boot shine".....
OMG...The Hi Res pics from my iphone 14 makes the journals look like 20 miles of Death Valley fire trail.....
They are as smooth as Ma General sends them out of the factory.....
Shaft is now all done and ready for a final wash out and have the oil passages cleaned well and a blow dry....
Will clean it up and drop it right into the block..
Will check the bearing clearances with Plastigage and go from there....
With any luck we can put the shaft in with Lubriplate after we get the clearance numbers.
Have the rear main seal and a fresh set of bearings on hand.....
Getting pumped now.....
I used a brass brush on the Dremel to give the oil holes a good whizzzzz to be sure of NO BURRRRS....BEFORE THE SPIT SHINE.....
I can't beliece how sharp the oil passage holes were......Sharp enough to cut my fingers...
Nice and smooth now....A 45 degree chamfer (GENERAL IDEA) all the way around....A couple of the mains were a bitch getting the tool between the counter weights........But got it done...
Rods are easy....
Getting this sweet shaft was a real treat....Especially at this late date.....
Gonna be exciting to get the shaft in on lubed bearings and the mains torqued.....With any luck this bad boy will spin like the wind.....
Gonna use a 22 caliber cleaning rod and brass brush to give the oil passages the dutch scrub....
More tomorrow.....
With good weather this will be a fun time....Have not built a "Widdle mouse motor" in a long time....
The last engine I tossed together was a 6.5 Diesel for a pickup......
Before that....Too long ago.......
Attachments
Snowy Rivers
Well-known member
Got after things this morning.
Crank got a good washing and all the oil passages cleared with a brass brush and good soap....Complete washout and blow dry..
Dragged the block out and installed the upper bearing shells (Block side with the oil groove)
Dropped the crank in (Dry fitting) And checked the main bearing clearance with Plastigage.
All the mains came in at .0025" (Perfect) With the thrust main just snug I whacked the crank back and forth with the orange dead blow hammer to set the thrust main square.....Torqued all bolts to 70Ft lb.....
Checked the end play....002" Right on spec....002"-.006"
I would like to see a bit more...Maybe .003"-004" but the spec says .002" is good
After all the bolts were to spec....Crank spins nice.....Can't complain...
Crank got a good washing and all the oil passages cleared with a brass brush and good soap....Complete washout and blow dry..
Dragged the block out and installed the upper bearing shells (Block side with the oil groove)
Dropped the crank in (Dry fitting) And checked the main bearing clearance with Plastigage.
All the mains came in at .0025" (Perfect) With the thrust main just snug I whacked the crank back and forth with the orange dead blow hammer to set the thrust main square.....Torqued all bolts to 70Ft lb.....
Checked the end play....002" Right on spec....002"-.006"
I would like to see a bit more...Maybe .003"-004" but the spec says .002" is good
After all the bolts were to spec....Crank spins nice.....Can't complain...
Attachments
Snowy Rivers
Well-known member
I dragged out the box of piston / rod assemblies....
The machine shop had assembled the pistons to the rods and marked them in accordance with what hole they were fit to....and with the proper orientation as far as the rod bearing offset (Bearings are offset to fit properly with the Chamfer of the rod throw)
Outside of the rod has more room between the bearing shell and the side of the rod so the bearing does not hit the chamfer...
So each rod has a # on it (Done in sharpie pen ) and the cast arrow on the piston crown indicates FRONT FACING..
The shop did not want to stamp the rods with numbers while they were not supported....Could possibly distort the rod ?????
Unless you are really wailing on things....I think NOT....But no worries.....I grabbed the Dremel and made the matching numbers on the rod and cap at t5he part line....Good enough...
I want to do a trial assembly LESS THE RINGS to check the bearing clearance.....Then go ahead and Check the ring end gaps.....Assemble the rings to each piston one at a time and stuff them bad boys in the holes....
Depending on how I feel.....My back gives out pretty quick any more....I may be able to sit in my work chair and do this job....
Definitely looking forwards to seeing all the little soldiers in their spots....
Went shopping this morning...Still need an oil pump and the bolt........
The block I got had only the main bolts.....A bucket of Rusty junk that went in the trash too....
So everything has to be scrounged up one piece at a time......
I have a new set of pan bolts and other goodies.....
The pan is a 6 quart Kevco "Road race pan" Has baffles, gates for LH and RH turns as well as gates to help keep oil at the pump in hard braking......Don't think most of these things will matter too much.....The gate for hard braking may help a tad on down hills.....
Pan is 7-1/2" deep.....Perfect to fit in the cat belly
The machine shop had assembled the pistons to the rods and marked them in accordance with what hole they were fit to....and with the proper orientation as far as the rod bearing offset (Bearings are offset to fit properly with the Chamfer of the rod throw)
Outside of the rod has more room between the bearing shell and the side of the rod so the bearing does not hit the chamfer...
So each rod has a # on it (Done in sharpie pen ) and the cast arrow on the piston crown indicates FRONT FACING..
The shop did not want to stamp the rods with numbers while they were not supported....Could possibly distort the rod ?????
Unless you are really wailing on things....I think NOT....But no worries.....I grabbed the Dremel and made the matching numbers on the rod and cap at t5he part line....Good enough...
I want to do a trial assembly LESS THE RINGS to check the bearing clearance.....Then go ahead and Check the ring end gaps.....Assemble the rings to each piston one at a time and stuff them bad boys in the holes....
Depending on how I feel.....My back gives out pretty quick any more....I may be able to sit in my work chair and do this job....
Definitely looking forwards to seeing all the little soldiers in their spots....
Went shopping this morning...Still need an oil pump and the bolt........
The block I got had only the main bolts.....A bucket of Rusty junk that went in the trash too....
So everything has to be scrounged up one piece at a time......
I have a new set of pan bolts and other goodies.....
The pan is a 6 quart Kevco "Road race pan" Has baffles, gates for LH and RH turns as well as gates to help keep oil at the pump in hard braking......Don't think most of these things will matter too much.....The gate for hard braking may help a tad on down hills.....
Pan is 7-1/2" deep.....Perfect to fit in the cat belly
Snowy Rivers
Well-known member
And the Saga continues
Grabbed up the piston rod assemblies and checked the rod bearing clearance.
Plastigage is not my favorite on the rods....They move too much when you torque the bolts....and then take them apart....
I was seeing about .001"....A tad too tight....Spec is .0011" to .0029"
I wanted to see .002" or so.....
Given the look of the platigage after getting things apart....Decided to dig out the 2"-3" Outside mics and the Inside mics....
Gonna do this the old fashioned way..
A nice bore gauge would be sweet.......Fresh out....Gotta do it old school......Getting a good reading on the bearing shell takes a bit of finesse.....
Check every rod
Crank throws Rod with bearing Clearance
1- 2.099" 2.1017" .0027"
2- 2.099" 2.1015" .0025"
3- 2.099' 2.101" .002"
4- 2.099" 2.1015" .0025"
5- 2.0992" 2.1012" .0022"
6- 2.0992" 2.1015" .0023"
7- 2.099" 2.101" .002"
The crank dims are very accurate.....Easy to feel the mic on the shaft.....Getting a good feel on the bearing surface can be a bit of a case of holding your tongue just right.....But I am sure of being within .0001"
I have an anvil for my inside mic for doing engine bearings.....A bit larger so it does not mar the surface.....
I am happy with these numbers.....
More reasonable then the Plastigage.......
I have used the PG many times.....But this go round was just not making me feel warm and fuzzy....
All seemed very good...
But one fly in the ointment....
Had a couple rods that when I removed the nuts and got the caps off....Bolts fell out on the floor...
These rods were good used ones that measured good ......I had another set of rods that somebody had tried to make them free floaters.....NOT POSSIBLE TO MAKE A PRESS PIN ROD A FREE FLOAT....At least not a GOOD THING
I removed all the bolts from those rods.....Will test these other bolts and see if the knurled shanks fit snug.....If they do I will torque them and mic the big ends.....Be sure they are round......
I think there are 3 rods that have bolts that are not as tight as I would like to see.....Since we are not going to be whizzing this little mouse waaaaaay up into the OZONES as far as RPM.....Things will be fine......
Grabbed up the piston rod assemblies and checked the rod bearing clearance.
Plastigage is not my favorite on the rods....They move too much when you torque the bolts....and then take them apart....
I was seeing about .001"....A tad too tight....Spec is .0011" to .0029"
I wanted to see .002" or so.....
Given the look of the platigage after getting things apart....Decided to dig out the 2"-3" Outside mics and the Inside mics....
Gonna do this the old fashioned way..
A nice bore gauge would be sweet.......Fresh out....Gotta do it old school......Getting a good reading on the bearing shell takes a bit of finesse.....
Check every rod
Crank throws Rod with bearing Clearance
1- 2.099" 2.1017" .0027"
2- 2.099" 2.1015" .0025"
3- 2.099' 2.101" .002"
4- 2.099" 2.1015" .0025"
5- 2.0992" 2.1012" .0022"
6- 2.0992" 2.1015" .0023"
7- 2.099" 2.101" .002"
The crank dims are very accurate.....Easy to feel the mic on the shaft.....Getting a good feel on the bearing surface can be a bit of a case of holding your tongue just right.....But I am sure of being within .0001"
I have an anvil for my inside mic for doing engine bearings.....A bit larger so it does not mar the surface.....
I am happy with these numbers.....
More reasonable then the Plastigage.......
I have used the PG many times.....But this go round was just not making me feel warm and fuzzy....
All seemed very good...
But one fly in the ointment....
Had a couple rods that when I removed the nuts and got the caps off....Bolts fell out on the floor...
These rods were good used ones that measured good ......I had another set of rods that somebody had tried to make them free floaters.....NOT POSSIBLE TO MAKE A PRESS PIN ROD A FREE FLOAT....At least not a GOOD THING
I removed all the bolts from those rods.....Will test these other bolts and see if the knurled shanks fit snug.....If they do I will torque them and mic the big ends.....Be sure they are round......
I think there are 3 rods that have bolts that are not as tight as I would like to see.....Since we are not going to be whizzing this little mouse waaaaaay up into the OZONES as far as RPM.....Things will be fine......
Attachments
Snowy Rivers
Well-known member
Thought more about those 3 rods with the bolts that are not quite as snug on the Knurl as they could be....
No big hurry to get this beast together.....Much better to get it right than hurry.....
I grabbed some new "Stock type" Knurled rod bolts and that took care of the issue......
"Stretchy" bolts are a no no.. (Bolt torque will not hold stable ...torque wrench will continue to move and not gain more tension)
None of the bolts were stretchy.....Just the knurled end by the head which has two knurled areas were worn just enough that the Rod caps would slip on and off too easily......These should be a tap fit....and all but the 3 were fine......
When I first knew there was an issue ...I was holding one of the rod/piston assemblies after removing the cap.....PLUNK
BOLT hits the floor....
!@#$% That began the checking of all of them.........
I have never owned a bore gauge......But yesterday I decided to do a bit of shopping......Several of the tools made overseas are real reasonable $$$$$
All my mics are Mitutoyo brand....Had these since the 1970's/80's when we raced drag boats.......
Since then I have added a few other precision tools to the tool box...(Usually stuff I have found at garage sales and such)
I have a couple of vernier calipers that came from across the pond....These read just accurately as my Mitutoyo or Starrett
tools.....Probably not suited for production work.....But just fine for the home/hobby shop.....
Big deal with any precision tools....DON'T DROP THEM ON THE FLOOR....And if there is suspicion ....Check them with a standard.....
Anyway....I ordered up a 1.4" to 6" bore gauge.......Gonna give those rods another good look see before we stuff things into the block.......
As much as I try hard to keep the $$$$$$$$$$$ cost down.....Screwing up on an engine build is a good way to BLOW big chunk of $$$$$ ...LITERALLY.
This engine is not going to be 7000/8000 RPM screamer....And does not need a Forged steel crank and super trick racing rods with all the special prep work......But.....There is some basic work that needs to be followed closely and the rotating assembly is a biggy.........
We have a good foundation (Block) and a New old stock crankshaft......The rods are factory stuff that are in good shape....
For a high rev engine the stock 5.565" rods are not a real good choice due to the Rod angle and the extra side loading of the piston to the cylinder bore.....
GM engineers decided that for the RPM range they were looking to use the 400 engine in......The short rod with it's greater piston skirt loading was acceptable......
The subject of bore to stroke ratios, rod angles and all the geometry that goes with it is not needed here.
To change things in my build (Stock 400 SBC with .030" overbore) would be expensive.....Different pistons with far less distance from the piston crown to the center of the piston pin...Longer rods (5.7" or longer) and then a complete balance of the rotating assembly... Very likely a different Flex plate and harmonic balancer to allow internal balance.....
The 406 SBC BIG cubes and modest RPM 4000 TO 5000 MAX in use... really made the choice to go this route a no brainer.
Had the $$$$$ cost not been any concern and the sky as the limit.....Some really serious Cubes could have been in the offing....After market blocks with stroker cranks........And all manner of goodies.....Yeah buddy....
We just don't need those sorts of goodies to make this Franken cat go......
I have looked at the numbers that the factory originally churned out of the 400 SBC ...Pretty dismal to be honest.....But torque was decent.....
Add a better cam, some compression (9.25:1) and the Vortec heads......375 HP at the RPM we are talking is an easy shot....PLENTY OF TORQUE TO BREAK STUFF IT NOT USED WITH DISCRETION....
Anyway.....
A bit more fooling around to make sure the dimensions on the 3 rods spoken of earlier are good and we can start stuffing the little soldiers into the holes.
The bore gauge will be here in a few days and then it takes only a few minutes to check the parts...
The weather is going to be shoving me inside in another week or so anyway........
A side note.
When using the inside mics the other day....I noticed a bit of rust on some of the anvil stems in the box.....
My basement shop is dry and we don't get that much humid weather in the summer.....
I removed all my precision tools from the rollaway and brought them upstairs...Cleaned them all and added a bit of light oil film to the parts that are not chromed......
Rust on the precision tools is not a good thing.....Too expensive to let them degrade......
WD40....Commonly used to stop rust is not that good...../Over time it dries to a shellac like substance....Hard to get off then.....Some of the more popular gun preservatives are a better choice.......
More news as it happens
No big hurry to get this beast together.....Much better to get it right than hurry.....
I grabbed some new "Stock type" Knurled rod bolts and that took care of the issue......
"Stretchy" bolts are a no no.. (Bolt torque will not hold stable ...torque wrench will continue to move and not gain more tension)
None of the bolts were stretchy.....Just the knurled end by the head which has two knurled areas were worn just enough that the Rod caps would slip on and off too easily......These should be a tap fit....and all but the 3 were fine......
When I first knew there was an issue ...I was holding one of the rod/piston assemblies after removing the cap.....PLUNK
BOLT hits the floor....
!@#$% That began the checking of all of them.........I have never owned a bore gauge......But yesterday I decided to do a bit of shopping......Several of the tools made overseas are real reasonable $$$$$
All my mics are Mitutoyo brand....Had these since the 1970's/80's when we raced drag boats.......
Since then I have added a few other precision tools to the tool box...(Usually stuff I have found at garage sales and such)
I have a couple of vernier calipers that came from across the pond....These read just accurately as my Mitutoyo or Starrett
tools.....Probably not suited for production work.....But just fine for the home/hobby shop.....
Big deal with any precision tools....DON'T DROP THEM ON THE FLOOR....And if there is suspicion ....Check them with a standard.....
Anyway....I ordered up a 1.4" to 6" bore gauge.......Gonna give those rods another good look see before we stuff things into the block.......
As much as I try hard to keep the $$$$$$$$$$$ cost down.....Screwing up on an engine build is a good way to BLOW big chunk of $$$$$ ...LITERALLY.
This engine is not going to be 7000/8000 RPM screamer....And does not need a Forged steel crank and super trick racing rods with all the special prep work......But.....There is some basic work that needs to be followed closely and the rotating assembly is a biggy.........
We have a good foundation (Block) and a New old stock crankshaft......The rods are factory stuff that are in good shape....
For a high rev engine the stock 5.565" rods are not a real good choice due to the Rod angle and the extra side loading of the piston to the cylinder bore.....
GM engineers decided that for the RPM range they were looking to use the 400 engine in......The short rod with it's greater piston skirt loading was acceptable......
The subject of bore to stroke ratios, rod angles and all the geometry that goes with it is not needed here.
To change things in my build (Stock 400 SBC with .030" overbore) would be expensive.....Different pistons with far less distance from the piston crown to the center of the piston pin...Longer rods (5.7" or longer) and then a complete balance of the rotating assembly... Very likely a different Flex plate and harmonic balancer to allow internal balance.....
The 406 SBC BIG cubes and modest RPM 4000 TO 5000 MAX in use... really made the choice to go this route a no brainer.
Had the $$$$$ cost not been any concern and the sky as the limit.....Some really serious Cubes could have been in the offing....After market blocks with stroker cranks........And all manner of goodies.....Yeah buddy....
We just don't need those sorts of goodies to make this Franken cat go......
I have looked at the numbers that the factory originally churned out of the 400 SBC ...Pretty dismal to be honest.....But torque was decent.....
Add a better cam, some compression (9.25:1) and the Vortec heads......375 HP at the RPM we are talking is an easy shot....PLENTY OF TORQUE TO BREAK STUFF IT NOT USED WITH DISCRETION....
Anyway.....
A bit more fooling around to make sure the dimensions on the 3 rods spoken of earlier are good and we can start stuffing the little soldiers into the holes.
The bore gauge will be here in a few days and then it takes only a few minutes to check the parts...
The weather is going to be shoving me inside in another week or so anyway........
A side note.
When using the inside mics the other day....I noticed a bit of rust on some of the anvil stems in the box.....
My basement shop is dry and we don't get that much humid weather in the summer.....
I removed all my precision tools from the rollaway and brought them upstairs...Cleaned them all and added a bit of light oil film to the parts that are not chromed......
Rust on the precision tools is not a good thing.....Too expensive to let them degrade......
WD40....Commonly used to stop rust is not that good...../Over time it dries to a shellac like substance....Hard to get off then.....Some of the more popular gun preservatives are a better choice.......
More news as it happens
Snowy Rivers
Well-known member
Engine going together.....
Went after things this morning.
Checking ring ring end gap.....Getting the rings on the pistons and stuffing the little soldiers in the block.....
Tedious work.....All went well.
The dished pistons don't look like Hi perf stuff....The stock 400 heads were 76cc chambers...The L31 Vortec heads have 64cc chambers....WE should be about 9.2:1 on this build....Give or take a skosh......But good with pump gas....
Getting the pistons in the holes can be fun....The rings all cooperated well and slipped right in with my old ring compressor doing it's job.
Time consuming......All in and the bolts torqued to spec....
Old bones are tired.....But the mood is good.....We made a difference today....
Went after things this morning.
Checking ring ring end gap.....Getting the rings on the pistons and stuffing the little soldiers in the block.....
Tedious work.....All went well.
The dished pistons don't look like Hi perf stuff....The stock 400 heads were 76cc chambers...The L31 Vortec heads have 64cc chambers....WE should be about 9.2:1 on this build....Give or take a skosh......But good with pump gas....
Getting the pistons in the holes can be fun....The rings all cooperated well and slipped right in with my old ring compressor doing it's job.
Time consuming......All in and the bolts torqued to spec....
Old bones are tired.....But the mood is good.....We made a difference today....
