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"Snowzilla": A Comprehensive Tucker 1643 Project...

NOT to hijack the thread, but on electrical my 2Cents. After spending 30+ years wiring Fire Trucks, ambulances etc, where reliability has to be good: I think the relay should be the usual. If you have room, relays allow smaller wires in the actual dash, and then mount the relays where they can be gotten to. Also I try to identify a critical bus which usually has self resetting circuit breakers and an aux bus with fuses. by locating power management close to the relays, troubleshooting can be easier. Also the relay sockets accept 1/4 " male tab disconnects, so a jumper to measure circuit current, or an emergency bypass is easy.



we now return you to the program in progress
 
Tom,

I think that’s great advice, and thank you for sharing it.

While I hit Tucker pretty hard on some of their manufacturing processes and quality issues, I think they did a good job on the wiring. I suspect they had harnesses supplied to them by a vendor, and they used essentially one harness regardless of the options the customer ordered. (Though probably a second harness for Diesel powered machines.) The wires were all there, and run to the appropriate locations, but weren’t connected. For example they would run a wire from the electrical panel to the location where a roof mounted spotlight would be installed and taped it to the inside of the roof. Upholstery would be installed over the wire. It would not be connected to the electrical panel but would be easy to connect if someone later wanted to add the spotlight. Tucker didn’t use fuses, but rather the auto resetting circuit breakers you mentioned.

Here’s a pic of Snowzilla’s panel when I bought it. Mostly stock, though owners along the way have added some wires.

View attachment 130770

We completely rewired Thundercat, and we added several electrical circuits. Bosch style relays are mounted on the top of the panel and on the underside of the top as well. The fuses on the lower right are for the computerized engine’s conversion harness. (There are also some large relays for the electric fuel pump and the two electric fans that are mounted close to the engine’s computer on the opposite side of the cab.)

View attachment 130771

But we subsequently decided to add even more circuits, and there wasn’t enough "real estate" for the additional required circuit breakers. Doing a little Internet research I learned that John Deere used a narrow style stud mount circuit breaker almost exactly 1/2 the width of the ones we were using. They were slightly different in length, but the mounting brackets could be easily bent just a little to accommodate the narrower CBs. We removed one row of the wide style and replaced them with the narrower versions. I will say while the wider ones are easy to find, the narrow ones are somewhat harder to locate. I bought them from a company called Crimp Supply.

View attachment 130772

Doing my Internet research I stumbled on this information from GM. I think it’s an excellent resource discussing proper wiring practices and procedures with lots of drawings and illustrations:

https://www.gmupfitter.com/files/media/photo/842/2018_Elec_BPrac_093017.pdf

 
Back from the blaster! I should point out that ideally all the orange would be gone, however the blaster was concerned about warping the panels, and especially so when blasting the inside of the cab -because he can only get so far away from the surface. So he tried to stay away from the middle of the panels on the inside. That will all get covered with both sound deadening material and then upholstery.

View attachment 130773

The blasting process of course removes the paint, but the force of the blast media hitting the surface will result in any weakened areas being exposed. This is the bottom of the grille. The square tube with the newly exposed rust hole rests on the Tucker frame.

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The damaged section of square tube had to be cut out and replaced with a new piece of square tube. Here’s a close up shot of the damaged section after being cut away from the grille. After Scott welded in a new length of square tube we drilled drain holes for water.

View attachment 130775

Blasting can also reveal heretofore unknown issues. This is the bottom side of the front fifth wheel plate (aka: turntable). Nice cracks! Of course they were repaired. The dark spots on the surface are sweat from yours truly. Yes, poor old Blackfoot was sweating in the summer heat.

View attachment 130776

Next came the laborious process of priming and painting all of Snowzilla’s parts and pieces. We use a catalyzed epoxy primer that chemically cures more than dries. It’s very hard once cured and has excellent rust and corrosion resistance. We would lay out various parts on some boards and prime one side. After the paint had cured enough, we moved them outside so the shop could be used for normal work during the day. Then we’d do it all over again the next night. I'm the chemist, responsible for mixing the primer, the catalyst and the reducer and Scott sprays the primer.

Here’s a bunch of parts laid out after priming.

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A close-up of the gas tank.

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Remember what it looked like when we first got Snowzilla? (Yes, the entire side of the tank is rusty. Tucker never bothered to paint it.) The “quality" of that level of workmanship is self-evident, and needs no commentary from me.

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The rather pathetic patch on the top of the tank done by a previous owner.

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Here’s a pic of the tank after we had cut out part of the top and welded in a new section.

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When it came time to prime the cab, our friend Justin (aka: "The Evil Jester”, previously introduced in an earlier post in this thread) suspended the cab from the shop crane in front while he supported the rear of the cab with a forklift. He was able to adjust the height of the cab and frame for optimal access for spraying. You can see the inside roof panels still have a fair amount of orange left after the blasting that I explained above.

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WBJ1 and I had many, many conversations regarding paint and colors, and I’ll tell you; Henry Ford was a genius! I should have taken a page from him and told WBJ1 “You can have any color you want…as long as it’s Omaha Orange”. We discussed various military camouflage paint colors and camo patterns. A good friend of mine designed a camo pattern on some pictures I had sent him to see where the color changes would be in a semi-tactical but good looking pattern. Then it was back to orange…. Then Mrs. WBJ1 saw a new Toyota 4Runner in a color that she loved. The paint store I go to needed a paint code. I called the Toyota dealer to find the code. They wanted a VIN to tell me the code. I didn’t have a VIN. WBJ1 then provided the proper code and I went back to the paint store. The guy at the paint store, Eddy, is truly an awesome guy to work with and very kindly mixed up a small sample…and it didn’t look at all like the factory Toyota colors on the Internet. Eddy then suggested I ask WBJ1 to choose a color from a Federal Standard Color fan. WBJ1 obliged and texted me the code number of his choice of color. Back to the paint store and I tell Eddy the FSN color code. Eddy says “Ah... that color is a flat. Does he really want a flat gloss”? I think probably not... and ask WBJ1. Nope, he wants a gloss. Due to the paint color formulations, Eddy can’t mix a small complimentary sample, but rather the minimum is a quart. I ask WBJ1 about buying a quart and he says go for it. Back to the paint store and Eddy mixes a quart and puts some paint on card stock to mail to WBJ1 for approval. (The color seems a much closer match to the Internet photos of the Toyota factory color.) I opened the can of paint and texted WBJ1 a photo of the inside of the lid. He pronounces it “perfect”, however I want him to make the call from the no-kidding paint on the card that’s in the mail. He gets it a few days later and the color still passes muster. Hooray!!!

View attachment 130867

Yes, this was a PITA, but it would be much worse to go to the time, trouble and expense of painting Snowzilla a rather unique color…and then Mr. and Mrs. WBJ1 don’t like it. (No-kidding 50 years ago my Dad ordered a new truck and of course the salesman asks what color he wants. Dad, without looking at the brochure that shows the various available colors, says “green”. He’s thinking it’s going to be a nice, dark forest green, but when the truck arrives it’s a rather hideous sea foam green. Lesson learned for junior (me): get the color right!)

If you haven’t bought automotive paint lately, get ready for some serious sticker shock when you see the prices. Thundercat got painted with high quality automotive single-stage red, and it was OMG expensive. WBJ1 is trying to keep costs down (except when it comes to buying LED lights) and there’s no way he’d go for such an expensive paint. So, we'll be using a high quality, catalyzed Industrial and Marine coating made by PPG and recommended by Eddy. I’ll also mention that from the time Eddy originally quoted the price of the paint, PPG has had two price increases. Eddy very kindly said he’d honor the original quote. It is so nice dealing with people who treat you as a valued customer, as opposed to a resource to be exploited!

There was actually quite a bit of work involved in getting the cab and frame ready for the color coats of paint. The cab sides are basically flat sheets of 16 gauge steel. Unlike body panels on a car or truck that are pressed in dies to give them various body lines, these are just flat. Those body lines give the shape some interest, but they add considerable strength as well. The Tucker cab just uses the steel sheet metal skip welded to various cab structural members. Auto manufacturers will typically use structural members which are also stamped and they’ll have flanges on them where the sheet metal attaches, and they use multiple spot welds to hold the two together. Tucker uses tubular steel frame members and as you can’t access the inside of the tube to spot weld the sheet metal to the cab, you skip weld it. The spot weld certainly creates heat, but it’s much more localized than skip welding, and the skip welding process causes more distortion in the panel than if it were spot welded. Between the distortion from the welding processes and dents picked up over the last 40 years, we had a fair amount of work to do. We did not try and make it perfect, and WBJ1 was encouraging us to “spray it already”. But we did try and take the worst of the flaws out and make it at least presentable. In earlier posts in this thread I pointed out poor workmanship on Tucker’s part in not painting, or even priming, various components. I assure you - we took no such shortcuts; even to the point of filling small dents and rust pits on the cab side that is obscured by the gas tank. (Tucker, didn’t even bother to paint this surface.) Most of the time we left the cab on a trailer and moved it in and out of the shop to work on it. But when it was time to spray the final coats of primer before spraying color we suspended the cab and frame from the two shop cranes.

On the trailer...

View attachment 130868

Suspended from the two cranes.

View attachment 130869

The cab side and fuel tank protective shield.

View attachment 130870

A before pic. This was taken immediately after the fuel tank was removed and you can see all the assorted stuff that accumulated there over the years. Note the complete lack of paint on the side of the cab and the fuel tank shield.

You can't make this stuff up. Honestly, if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes, I'm not sure I would have believed Tucker's quality was this poor. Imagine being the original purchaser, who paid a lot of money for this machine, and seeing that level of "workmanship".

View attachment 130871

A shot of the frame from inside the cab. Yes, those surfaces will all be covered, but painting them is doing it “the right way” in our opinion. If you look at the intersection between the sheet metal on the sides and the frame members you can see a slight gap. Tucker did not apply any seam sealer to this joint and water can get down between the two components. After spraying the epoxy primer we applied seam sealer to the joint. I had intended to take a pic after the sealer was applied - but I forgot to.

View attachment 130872
 
So,a question: With all the prep paint and such, do you have any issues with grounding? Just wondering if you are going to have to add bonding jumpers or return wires. Or is there enough fasteners that it isn't an issue? I'm going to be dealing with this next year and would rather learn from others.



FWIW

I decided on my rewire to use return wires where possible to keep electrolysis minimized between the aluminum and the steel frame. But I was dealing with a few points where steel was supported by aluminum which was supported by steel. I don't know if return wires are overkill or not.
 
Just some thoughts after running/owning big rigs for over 20 years.

Most big trucks (Pete, KW, Western Star, Freightliner) use a ground for each circuit and not the frame or body....

Grounding through body panels/frame and such can lead to ground issues after time due to corrosion and other degradation of things.

Bad grounds can literally drive you nuts unless you happen to stumble onto the break.

If you run all the lights or ??? equipment grounds to a common bus bar and then use a common ground wire back to the battery/engine and the same scheme all the way you can eliminate loads of grief later on.

The practice of using the chassis as the ground plane has other problems too..

Electrolysis can set up and his can add even more troubles.

Electricity will find a way.....back feeding through wherever is can to complete its path to ground.

I had a 1986 Chevy 3500 that one day started making the wipers run when you accelerated hard.

Drove me nuts.....Finally after thinking about it I went searching....I had replaced the HEI Distributor cap and parts a week or so before....and shortly after the gremlin appeared.

Broken ground wire from the coil in the HEI cap .....Fixed the issue and the gremlin was fixed.

Broken or bad grounds can make gauges wiggle when the signals are on....
Step on the brake and other lights dim or come on......

Dedicated grounds are simply not a bad way to go.

Why do most machinery builders (Cars and trucks) use the chassis as the ground Quick and CHEAP The builder could care less about your troubles down the trail years later.

Nice heavy multi conductor rubber jacketed cable is easy to get and fairly cheap.... Grab a color (White) and dedicate it as GROUND for the machine....Or whatever color you like....and make it your standard for ground and then wire the thing up......

If an issue shows up you can wrangle it out pretty quick and isolate the problem.....and not have all sorts of collateral crap to drive you crazy.

Many grounds in the auto industry are put in places that are nearly impossible to get to and unless you have a detailed factory schematic that shows where they are...YOU ARE FOULED.....

Make your design easy to deal with and even easier to fix if there is an issue.

If you think it through and make it good....you will likely never have an issue due to degradation of the system.

It is a good idea to ground the engine to the frame, the body to the frame and use this plan all the way.
Just ground the components to a common separately grounded bus bar that is preferably Sealed up well to keep water out.

A plastic junction box works well...just stay away from the cheap ones that are not sealed.... add a water drain if you like just in case some gets in so it won't cause issues.
Think about the WHAT IF scenario WHEN YOU ARE WAY THE HELL OUT IN THE BOONIES....The extra hour or so to plan ahead and toss in a bit of overkill will not even matter....and you will kick yourself if you have to deal with issues that could have been prevented in the comfort of your shop....not dealing with them in the snow somewhere....

Just my thoughts.
 
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You got the right snowy rivers. Ground everything with a wire now and have less grief tomorrow.
 
Snowy Rivers,

Thanks for the thorough and detailed explanation. First Class!

Tom,

You’re absolutely right about all the primer and paint creating potential grounding problems. As yet, we haven’t really gotten very far with Snowzilla’s wiring. We’ve got the instrument panel probably 80% done and we have spent a fair amount of time reconfiguring the conversion harness for the L94 engine (adding some wires and removing others). We have also run most of the other wires to their respective locations and left them long. But the majority of the work is ahead of us. When we re-wired Thundercat, we ran a number of ground wires and proper circuit grounding was something Scott emphasized all along. We added a couple of welded studs to the frame and some ground wires are secured there.

This is the one in front.

View attachment 130908

One of our Tucker design complaints is they weld the bed to the frame. We made our bed removable, and it’s secured to the frame with six Grade 8, 1/2-20 bolts. But we (Scott) wasn’t confident that would be adequate grounding, hence the location of the rear grounding stud. Something we also did was to install Weather Pack connectors on all the wires going to the bed close by. The concept being if you want to remove the bed, all you have to do is disconnect the fuel lines, remove the bolts and separate the Weather Pack connectors.

Here’s a pic showing the above. If it seems like that’s a lot of wires for a bed, that’s true - but we have a bunch of stuff back there: fuel tank quantity sender, bed illumination lights, back up lights, tail lights and connections for a wired winch control for the hydraulic winch.

View attachment 130909
 
WBJ1 Has been prodding me to post an update...

Here’s a question for you: “When is a gallon not really a gallon”? The answer is when the item is being sold by a paint manufacturer.

Back in the day I remember buying DuPont Imron paint. It was a catalyzed paint and your so-called “gallon” of paint came in a gallon can, but with only three quarts of actual paint. As I recall you bought a quart of catalyst as well and that mixed together produced a gallon. Well PPG has taken that a step further. Their so-called “gallon" is actually .64 gallons (in a gallon can, of course). The catalyst comes in a quart can, which we all know is 1/4 of a gallon. However, the can only contains .2 gallons of catalyst, and this makes no sense as the mixing ratio is 4:1. Mixing .64 gallons of paint at 4:1 would require .16 gallons of catalyst. Now we’re up to .8 gallons, but you’d have to add a whole lot of thinner (25% to be exact) to get a sprayable gallon. We thinned the catalyzed paint 10% per Eddy’s recommendation, and that seemed to work well.

Before I go further, let me say this about the color choice: If you like the color: Give WBJ1 credit. If you don’t like the color: Give WBJ1 credit. Our overarching objective is to make Snowzilla WBJ1’s version of the ultimate Tucker for his usage. (I suppose that isn’t quite true as he wants a turbo, and that simply ain’t happening with us.) While the color was not our choice, he is the customer after all...

When it came time to spray the color, we decided to spray the inside of the cab and the frame first. Having the two shop cranes made this task a lot easier. We could raise and lower the cab at will to position it at the optimal height for accessing various parts from the interior roof to the frame. That said, it was still challenging, and a team effort. Scott would bend down and crawl under the frame and then stand up in an area between frame members. Then he’d spray what he could, bend down, crawl to a new location and do what he could from there, and so on. But the lighting in the shop is really lousy and that’s where I came in. I’d hold a (WBJ1 will love this) LED light stick and shine that to help Scott. I’d also point out areas that needed more paint. That might come across as being critical, but neither of us took it that way. It was an extra set of eyes from a different vantage point, and the goal was to do a thorough job. It helped to achieve the goal.

Here is Scott just starting to spray the color.

IMG_0314.jpeg


The Tucker truss frame is composed of many individual pieces of steel, all welded together. Each piece has multiple sides and they all need to be painted, and the coverage needs to be 100%. That means multiple spray gun angles to cover each piece and the multiple angles means overlapping paint on adjoining frame pieces. This can very easily lead to runs in the paint as you strive for that 100% coverage. Honestly, I think Scott did an outstanding job. He’s not a professional, and yet there are only a very few number of boo-boos. I can unequivocally say I could not have done as well.

These pics were taken the following day.

IMG_0319.jpeg


IMG_0328.jpeg


We had suspended the cab from a strap on the pintle hitch and Scott didn’t want to spray the strap with green paint. The pintle hitch was sprayed when we painted the exterior.

IMG_0325.jpeg


Periodically I'll go to Tucker's website to see what's going on. Tucker publishes a monthly newsletter and they almost always have information from the service department. It can be worth reading, though typically the information pertains to newer generation machines. Anyway, the December, 2018 issue surprised me.

Check out page three in the link below and look at the front-engined Tucker pictured. (Another Pea Soup Green Tucker. (My name for it. Scott''s is less complimentary...))

http://sno-cat.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/volume-10issue-12.pdf
 
nice work guys, very nice, guess you got the memo from Jr.

fyi, the color is called, BSG, Baby Sh_t Green,

W Buffet Jr looses his tucker card per Her Royal Highness, Pontoon Queen

it is Orange, no other color
 
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We will take a re-vote once it's all done. We are doing body green and blade, roof rack, ladder, tool box, etc black. The ARMY GREEN color is already growing on Scott! I have a feeling when it's done it will have grown on TLBFT as well! Orange is for cats with stock engines!! :devilish:
 
Wbj1,
I was going to say the same, let's see when it's done. I can go with plastic army man green.

Let's see, the appropriate quote here ?

"It's only weird the first time",
No no, that's not it.
Uuhhmm, "Whatever you're into man" ?

The only bad choice would be letting others make it for you, at least imo ?
 
The ARMY GREEN color is already growing on Scott! I have a feeling when it's done it will have grown on TLBFT as well!

Huh? WBJ1, you are misinformed.

Interesting comments from all...

Snowy Rivers,

During the phase when WBJ1 was seriously considering a camouflage paint scheme, I did some research - which was interesting. The US Army has put a lot of time and effort over the years to perfect their camouflage paint colors and patterns. To an untrained eye it often looks like they painted a vehicle a base color and then gave some soldiers a case of beer and a bunch of spray cans and said "Go for it". But there's actually a lot more to it than some random splotches. Each vehicle has a specific pattern of colors and unsurprisingly the US Army has manuals that specify the layouts with surprising precision. In the 1970's they introduced what is referred to as MERDC camouflage. Two colors comprise 45% each of the vehicle, and then two other colors split the remaining 10%. There were eight different combinations of colors for optimal concealment in different locations and climatic conditions.

My perception is two things ruined the camo paint idea on Snowzilla. One was previously mentioned: Mrs. WBJ1's love of the Toyota "Army Green". But I think the kill shot for WBJ1 was advice from our paint guru, Eddy. Camouflage paint, assuming it's done properly, uses flat paints with no gloss. Eddy said those paints do not hold up well over time compared to typical glossy paints.

In post 154 in this thread I mentioned WBJ1 and I had discussed camouflage paint schemes and my good friend, Chris had done some design work. (This guy is HUGELY talented, and in may many, ways.) Here's one he Photoshopped for us. It's the US Army MERDC concept and the color combination uses Winter Verdant colors: Forest Green, Field Drab, Sand and Black.

image001.jpeg


Snowzilla could have had this... but NO... and now it's Pea Soup Green. "Snatching Defeat From the Jaws of Victory..."
 
I'm sure there are tech manuals that specify how to paint the camo design. But I was in the Army quite some time ago and I can say the case of beer and spray cans was the more prevalent method. Usually intended to disguise mystery dents and scrapes, which may or may not have involved the aforementioned case(s) of beer.;)
 
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The one I love is a gent in Greece who has a beautiful white snow camo job.... with hi vis reflective decal strips :)
 
I'm sure there are tech manuals that specify how to paint the camo design. But I was in the Army quite some time ago and I can say the case of beer and spray cans was the more prevalent method. Usually intended to disguise mystery dents and scrapes, which may or may not have involved the aforementioned case(s) of beer.;)
PJL,

As an Air Force guy, thanks for restoring my faith in the US Army. I was in "the peacetime Air Force", which got bogged down in rules, regulations and minutiae. Fortunately for me, early on I had both a squadron commander and operations officer who had the big picture. They were all about maximizing the squadron’s combat capability, and if a rule or two got bent slightly, that was okay. I learned the concept of “If you’re not cheating, you're not trying”. Fun times...

BTW, I totally agree about the snow camo paint on Nikos’ Snow Trac. Gorgeous!
 
I posted this over on the serenade thread, but I think it truly deserves to go on this thread.
Someone anonymously sent this to me via PM. It's hilarious.

[Poontoon Princess Darth Vader steps out of her shuttle on the Shop Floor Death Star.]
Blackfoot Tucker Moff Jerjerrod: Welcome, Poontoon Princess Lord Vader. This is an unexpected pleasure. We are honored by your presence.
Poontoon Princess Darth Vader: You may dispense with the pleasantries, Commander. I am here to put you back on schedule.
Blackfoot Tucker Moff Jerjerrod: I assure you, Poontoon Princess Lord Vader, my men are working as fast they can.
Poontoon Princess Darth Vader: Perhaps I can find new ways to motivate them.
Blackfoot Tucker Moff Jerjerrod: I tell you that this snocat will be operational as planned.
Poontoon Princess Darth Vader: [stops and holds up her finger at Blackfoot Tucker Jerjerrod] The Wbuffetjr1 Emperor does not share your optimistic appraisal of the situation.
Blackfoot Tucker Moff Jerjerrod: But he asks the impossible! I need more men!
Poontoon Princess Darth Vader: Then perhaps you can tell him yourself when he arrives.
Blackfoot Tucker Moff Jerjerrod: [alarmed] Wbuffetjr1The Emperor's coming here? (Sun Valley)
Poontoon Princess Darth Vader: That is correct, Commander, and he is most displeased with your apparent lack of progress.
Blackfoot Tucker Moff Jerjerrod: We shall double our efforts.
Poontoon Princess Darth Vader: I hope so, Commander, for your sake. The Wbuffetjr1 Emperor is not as forgiving as I am. [resumes walking]
 
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