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"Snowzilla": A Comprehensive Tucker 1643 Project...

Damn, you beat me to the punch. I was going to suggest cutting out a round pipe section or even fancier, a cone which would provide DL clearance to weld into the pan. Seems like with the axle mounted frame, there would be no spring wrap up. All you need clearance for is spring compression and turning clearance. I am always going for max lube capacity. I don't have any idea about oil pick up tubes in auto trans, hell, I can't even spell ATF, let alone what it means.
 
……...nice job on the oil pan. great points about the temp. sender. i'm guessing the temp. gauge for tranny may have been an option perhaps....and if so ... the oil pan plug is a quickie place to throw it in . more for looks to the customer, than practicle performance. great job on snowzilla… :ThumbsUp:
 
sno-drifter said:
Damn, you beat me to the punch. I was going to suggest cutting out a round pipe section or even fancier, a cone which would provide DL clearance to weld into the pan. Seems like with the axle mounted frame, there would be no spring wrap up. All you need clearance for is spring compression and turning clearance. I am always going for max lube capacity. I don't have any idea about oil pick up tubes in auto trans, hell, I can't even spell ATF, let alone what it means.
Click to expand...

…….LOL … :TrumpSmiley:... I agree …. where ever possible , the more the oil the better...especially when in steep inclines , etc. but considering this application.... not a lot of other options ...within reason....
 
The front arms were a complete departure from the factory setup. I was in the mode of “Tucker designed it this way, and it works. Let’s use their geometry and figure out a way to make it bolt-on”. Scott, however viewed it as a way to improve on the factory design and started with a clean sheet of paper, so to speak. Attentive readers of this thread have probably already figured out how this is going to end…. Yup, it’s like an episode of Perry Mason; just as he never loses...we used Scott’s design.

Scott thought adding a crossmember to the frame underneath the bellhousing, and attaching the support arms to that crossmember would be better. In addition to providing the mounting point for those arms, the crossmember adds rigidity and strength to the frame. Basically it consists of a middle 10” section that’s flat, and there are sections on each side that angle up at a 45º angle where the connection to the frame is made. We made the crossmember and Scott tack welded that to the Tucker frame to hold it in position.

The bolt-on arms are welded to pieces of 1/4” angle and they attach at the corners of the crossmember. To get the pieces of angle to fit properly, we cut a 45º wedge out of the vertical leg of the angle and then bent the two ends together. Scott then welded the wedge edges closed. The really tricky part to this design are the cuts on the front of the support arms where they intersect with the pieces of angle. Because the arms themselves are not straight behind but rather attach to the C-channel slightly further out on it’s radius, they have a compound angle where they meet the vertical leg of the angle pieces. But they also attach low enough that they intersect with the angle on the other edges (bottom and outside) and that makes the shape of the required cuts very complex. To get it right, we did this the old-fashioned way: trial and error. Scott took a piece of scrap 2” thin wall square tubing, held it in position and made some marks with a soapstone. Then he cut the tube accordingly and checked the fit. This process was probably repeated 10 times to get the joint to fit reasonably well. Close counts here, as small gaps can be filled when the arms are welded to the pieces of angle; the key word being small. Once we had one side done, we could use that as a pattern to cut the other side, realizing there would be small adjustments required.

Here's a pic of the front end of one of the support arms.

IMG_2507.jpg

And another. Though it looks like an optical illusion, the tubing is 2" x 2" square tube.

IMG_2509.jpg

Both arms, side by side.

IMG_2506 2.jpg

After that was all tacked in place (and looked pretty darn good), Scott opined we should add gussets to the front of the crossmember for additional strength and rigidity. We could have cut some pieces of triangular shaped flat steel plate and welded those in; simple, easy and effective. But noooooo, it would look “cooler” if we used steel tubing. So back to the piece of scrap for more trial and error fitting and cutting. We were, however getting this procedure down faster. Scott would lay on the creeper underneath Snowzilla and make the marks on the tube, I’d cut the tube and he’d re-mark it, etc, etc. But to make it even better looking, instead, of the 2” x 2” square tube we ended up using 2” x 3” rectangular tube.

One of the gussets.

IMG_2511.jpg

Another view.

IMG_2512.jpg

I have no doubt that by making the support frame bolt-on, and with the additional crossmember design, our’s is better than the factory method. But it was surprisingly time consuming to accomplish. Instead of four arms with eight relatively simple compound angle cuts, and maybe a couple of hours of time, we spent several long nights and there are 13 pieces, some with very complex shapes involved. We can’t be doing this stuff if we have any hope of getting Snowzilla done in time for Christmas…

Here's a side view. Final welding is not complete. Scott didn't want heat from the welding process to damage the plastic block. The welding will be completed after the axle mounted frame is removed.

IMG_2527.jpg

Here's a shot of the left gusset and new crossmember.

IMG_2528.jpg
 
………. well, as I have said before..''masters'' ,... holy ingenuity … and when you say a little time consuming...yeah , i'd be few weeks on that procedure... my hats off to scott… i'm a gonna stay over here in my '' more simple '' realm....lol.... love the thread … Im envious... :applause:
 
Readers should take a detour at this point and look at olympicorange’s outstanding thread 1542 conversion to a 1543 supersized project. On post 96 he tackles the same issue: simply, elegantly and functionally with two photos and three words. Unfortunately, the L94 doesn’t lend itself to such a solution...

One of the issues that has to be addressed with a power train swap is dealing with the hydraulic situation. Tucker uses a Vickers V20P hydraulic pump that is sized differently; both in output volume and pressure, based upon an individual snowcats specifications. They drive the pump with a pulley and V-belt arrangement; the drive pulley being attached to the harmonic balancer on the crankshaft, and the driven pulley on the pump. Those pulleys have a mathematical relationship in size between the drive and the driven pulley, and that relationship changes the respective engine and pump RPM. Of course the pump must also be mounted, and allowances must be made to adjust belt tension.

These are all considerations that have to be met, one way or another. When Snowzilla was built, V-belts were the norm, but today engines use a multi-ribbed serpentine belt system and the L94 engine being installed in Snowzilla has that system. The harmonic balancer is a machined casting and the diameter of the machined ribs for the serpentine belts is quite large. Additionally, the harmonic balancer was not machined to accept an auxiliary pulley. Bottom line: we would need to purchase, or create, a complete pulley system for Snowzilla’s hydraulic pump, as well as a method for mounting the pump, to include a provision for a belt tensioner.

With the Thundercat project we faced similar challenges, so this was not at all unexpected. But until I did some research, we didn’t know what was available for purchase, and what we had to build. In the case of Thundercat, I was able to purchase a different GM harmonic balancer that was machined to accept a bolt-on auxiliary pulley, and I was able to buy the auxiliary pulley from MerCruiser, who used the 8.1 in several marine applications and the auxiliary pulley was used to drive the seawater pickup pump for the cooling system. We were then faced with designing a driven pulley, and having it machined to our specifications. But with Snowzilla those options were not available. We were starting from Ground Zero.

Here’s a pic of the system as installed on Thundercat’s 8.1 engine.

IMG_1923.jpg

Using Al Gore’s Internet, I was able to purchase an off-the-shelf “racing” harmonic balancer that was machined in such a way that an auxiliary pulley could be attached, but I could not find an auxiliary pulley that would fit anywhere. So, we had to design and engineer a new drive pulley, and have that made, as well as another copy of the Thundercat driven pulley for the hydraulic pump. The Vickers V20P pump has different shaft options and the pump's shaft would have to be changed as well.

If you’re thinking “Ah c’mon Blackfoot, you’re making this way harder than it has to be. Just use a GM power steering pump”. Well... it’s not that easy. Both Thundercat and Snowzilla are long track machines and they’re equipped with six-way blades. The long tracks require more "oomph" for steering, and one needs to use the various functions of the blade in a timely fashion. Increased hydraulic volume enables “faster” steering (or blade movement) and increased hydraulic pressure makes for easier steering (less effort to turn the wheel). A stock GM pump supplies neither the required volume or pressure to meet the hydraulic demands of these two snowcats. With a 1300 or 1500 series machine and no blade, or rear auxiliary hydraulics…maybe it would work. (I honestly don't know.)

As I mentioned above, there is a mathematical relationship between the drive and driven pulleys, and that determines the RPM relationship. Tucker used a 6” drive pulley and an 8” driven pulley, which is a 1.333:1 ratio. Vickers recommends a maximum pump RPM of 2,500 and that equates to an engine RPM of 3,333 in the Tucker installation. (The L94 harmonic balancer diameter is about 7.5 inches, so using the same ratio as Tucker, the driven pulley would be about 10” in diameter.)

The 8.1 Vortec in Thundercat produces its maximum torque at 3,200 RPM, and maximum horsepower at 4,200 RPM, but the L94 makes its power at significantly higher RPM. Max torque is at 4,300 RPM, and max horsepower is all the way up there at 5,700 RPM. With Thundercat we opted to under drive the hydraulic pump slightly (meaning more engine RPM for the same hydraulic pump RPM). But with Snowzilla’s different torque curve we would need to under drive it even more! However, you still need steering capability at just above idle RPM, so there is definite compromise involved in any design.

Here are the new pulleys, now waiting to be installed . Driven pulley on the left, auxiliary/drive pulley in the center and new harmonic balancer on the right.

IMG_2502.jpg

We now have the required pulleys, the tensioner assembly and the necessary components to modify the pump. We still need to design and fabricate the bracket to mount the pump and tensioner. I'll cover that in another post later.

While Scott and I have been working on Snowzilla I’ve exchanged many phone calls, texts and emails with wbuffetjr1. Though we have yet to meet in person, I can tell you he has a great sense of humor. In that light, we thought about the Vickers recommendations, and how their pumps are typically installed. Many installations run at continuous RPM for very extended periods of time. In a snowcat application they really don’t get used all that much, and the occasional foray above the maximum recommended RPM would probably be okay.

We could envision wbuffetjr1 cruising along blissfully in Snowzilla and encountering a hapless Snow Trac:


37dn9n.jpg

 
that meme, trailed off the page before the end......


The one I found earlier had the full statement....

whats missing on this one is as follows:

....... with all the angle iron flying off so wear a hard hat.
 
……….. hey BFT, great job on the explanation and descrtption, pics....nailed it . looking good . if I were a gambling man, I would bet you lay awake at nite working the numbers thru your mind... holy cow...:thumbup:.... and again, thanks for the kind words... im waiting eagerly for next post... :clap:
 
Still watching... :) Thanks for such detailed explanations... I'm yet to find me a hydro-pump for my steering,


Cheers!
 
Unfortunately progress on Snowzilla has been appreciably slower than anticipated, and for awhile. Scott has had to cancel Snowzilla work a bunch of times due to personal and work commitments, and I’ve had to cancel some as well. The worst heat of the summer is now past and the cooler temperatures will make for a better working environment. Hopefully the pace will pick up again...

Getting back to to the television metaphor, I suspect many forum members have watched master craftsman Norm Abram on the PBS show The New Yankee Workshop. I’ve enjoyed many episodes, but for me the show loses authenticity when Norm never makes a mistake. I mean really; he never mis-marks or mis-cuts something? Well, in the interest of project integrity, I’ll discuss a Boo-Boo of ours.

Recall that Snowzilla has a front winch and we are adding a factory-style six way blade. Our plan was to extend the axle mounted frame so the mount for the blade’s lift cylinder would clear the winch mount and the winch’s roller fairlead as the front axle rotated through its turning arc. That was all well and good, but one evening we were looking at Snowzilla and contemplating the blade system and it occurred to us what if you wanted to actually use the winch? (What a concept, huh?) The lift cylinder mount would block the roller fairlead if the axle was straight ahead. Truly one of those “Ah, Cr*p” moments.

We talked about various possible solutions and it was decided to raise the winch and modify the factory installed winch mount. Moving backward when you’re trying to make forward progress is not fun! Scott broke out his “hot wrench” (acetylene torch) to carefully remove the bracket from the Tucker frame.

Here are some pics:

Side view of stock factory winch bracket.

IMG_2365.jpg

Front view of same.

IMG_2366.jpg

Scott starting the surgery.

IMG_2476.jpg

After surgical excision, or "winch mount-ectomy", if you prefer.

IMG_2521.jpg

At that point we had to figure out how much we needed to raise the winch, and then determine how we wanted to modify the factory mount. After some discussion, it was decided to cut the original side plates from the mount, make new ones in the correct shape, and weld them to the original front and bottom panels.

Here are pics of the new side plates temporarily clamped in position.

Side view.

IMG_2524.jpg

From another angle.

IMG_2523.jpg

After satisfactory fitment of the new side plates, Scott removed them from the machine and welded the new side plates to the original front and bottom panels. That assembly was then clamped into position and tack welded to the Tucker to confirm positioning before final welding.

Tacked in position, side view.

IMG_2556.jpg

Front view.

IMG_2557.jpg

BTW, if you’re wondering “Why don't those two boneheads remove the bright yellow ratchet binder", I’ll explain. We keep a chain bolted to the engine to facilitate engine removal. Scott has a bridge crane in his shop and that makes it a very simple job to yank the engine and transmission for access. But we have to tilt the engine and transmission at a certain angle and we use the ratchet binder as necessary to adjust that angle. It functions as a “poor-man’s engine tilter”.

We have not yet decided how we want to attach the bottom panel of the winch mount to the Tucker’s frame. We need to run the six hydraulic lines for the blade’s four hydraulic cylinders. (I realize that sounds stupid, but the numbers are correct. The two angle cylinders oppose each other, and the plumbing of the hydraulic lines is done so you need only one fluid power line to each cylinder.) We must take that into consideration as we want our method to be both functional and look good.

On some Tucker factory blade installations the hydraulic hose routing and positioning of the quick disconnect fittings looks like it was a complete afterthought (and without much thought at that) rather than an integrated design. We’re striving for the latter! Sometimes it seems you ponder over a solution and walk away. But your brain subconsciously continues to think about ideas and out of the blue you have an "aha moment" when the solution hits you. This happens to us, though truthfully it’s usually Scott who creates the final design.


 
……….…………. bft/tgs,.... roger that...….. I stopped counting the '''ah-hahs'' ,.. ''I could've had a '' v-8'' ,... it's all part of the ''proto-type'' world,... one of my favorite Chinese proverbs, reads ; '' he who does nothing wrong, … does nothing all day...'' , I have been posting a similar scenario in the ''archives '' segment , of the old ''smoker'' , and today's test provided more... thanks for the insight … I really enjoy your link , awesome , most helpful..... :thumbup::thumbup:
 
Thanks for the nice comments, but I think "runaway train" is a stretch. More like one guy using a railroad handcar, and going uphill at that...

OO, I'm going to remember that proverb! I'll check out the "achives" project.
 
……….… LOL..... ive got a slew of them in the 'OL ...''' useless trivia file''... the archives is just a ''mumbo jumbo'' file for filler tasks... i'm probably not putting them in the proper realms... I think I just got carried away with the ''blog bug'' …. my first attempt ever. and I work by myself all day…. so please excuse the ''verbal diarhea'' virus....
 
After getting past the winch mount episode, we needed to design and build the lift cylinder mounting bracket. Tucker offered two different six-way blade configurations; one in which the blade can be tilted side-to-side, and the other in which the blade’s angle with the snow can be increased or decreased. The second type requires an additional hydraulic cylinder mounting position on the diagonal lift cylinder frame. Not needing that, we omitted it from our considerations.

The geometry of the lift cylinder is crucial in determining both how far down and how far up the blade can travel. We spent a considerable amount of time with Scott’s CAD system in drawing up what we had already fabricated with accurate measurements and factoring in the hydraulic cylinder specs. The hydraulic cylinder has a stroke of 12” and an extended length of 34 1/4”. That allowed us (really Scott) to determine the exact position for the hydraulic cylinder to mount so we would achieve optimal cylinder and blade function. Once we had the CAD calculated numbers, we could start cutting and welding.

The center diagonal arm is made from the same 3” x 2” rectangular tube we used on the axle mounted frame. Tucker uses kind of a goofy looking mount for the hydraulic cylinder pin. We decided to use a piece of 1” steel plate. It would be cut accordingly in size to slide into the rectangular tube about 6”, drilled for a 1” diameter cylinder mounting pin, and side plates were added to the section that slid into the rectangular tube to take up the space between the 1” plate and the inside dimension of the rectangular tube. Holes were drilled through the rectangular tube so Scott could add plug welds for strength, in addition to fully welding the front of the 1” plate assembly.

After that was done, we wanted to add some additional support plates for the hydraulic cylinder’s clevis mount. That meant cutting those plates to size and shape, and also spacing them out from the rectangular tube to allow room for the hydraulic cylinder’s clevis attachment. We added an additional plate on top for looks, and to tie it all together. It's massively strong. Once we had all that complete we had to cut the rectangular tube at the correct length and angle, and position it properly on the axle mounted frame to tack weld it in position. We checked, and double checked the measurements to get the position dead-on. At that point we needed to fabricate the angle braces made from 2” x 2” square tube and get them tacked in position. Tucker used some plate gussets for additional support, but Scott thought those were overkill, and we decided to omit them.

Here’s an underside view showing the 1” plate in the center, and the side plates.

IMG_2563.jpg

A front view showing where the hydraulic cylinder's clevis attaches, as well as the diagonal angle braces.

IMG_2560.jpg

Now, I’ll pause for a (very) rare moment of glory. I was looking at the nearly completed frame and it occurred to me maybe we could add a a diagonal gusset of rectangular tube to add additional support to the diagonal frame member. I suggested this to Scott and he said he’d been thinking the same thing. Holy Moly, stop the presses! Maybe, after almost ten years of working with Scott, I’m starting to pick up a few things! Not really…it was an obvious addition.

Side view of completed assembly, including triangular support gusset.

IMG_2559.jpg

Okay, back to reality...Once that was done, Scott got serious about welding it all together. The mig welder was used for all the tack welding, but he brought out the stick and 7018 rod for penetration and strength.

While we had the axle mounted frame on the welding table, we removed the bolt-on support frame to finish the welding that we had held off on. Once that was complete it was time to bolt it all back on to the Tucker.

Pics of the bolt-on support frame.

IMG_2566.jpg

A close-up.

IMG_2567.jpg

Earlier in the thread I think I mentioned the six-way valve used to control the blade's functions. When Thundercat was disassembled in preparation for blasting and painting, we made a tracing of the bracket used to mount the six-way valve. That bracket was then cut from 3/16" plate steel using a plasma cutter.

In a machine without a factory blade, Tucker welds the bracket holding the parking brake handle to a frame cross member under the front seats, and that was the case with Snowzilla. Whoever did the job at the factory managed to weld the bracket at an angle rather than perpendicular, and that askew angle always "stuck in my craw". It was impossible not to notice, and that this machine was delivered to a customer in such condition is (another) indictment of Tucker quality at the time the machine was built. This isn't difficult at all: position it properly, tack weld it, check the position and then weld it. ARRGGGH!

As an aside, eons ago I dropped out of college and went to work for a machine tool manufacturer in my home town. They had a big sign above the door at the loading dock that said "Through these doors pass the finest machine tools in the world". It was a statement that instilled a sense of pride in all of us who worked there. What sign would Tucker have; "Close...is good enough"? (In fairness, I think current production Tuckers are built to a higher standard. But this machine left the factory in this condition and therefore they get to own the (lack of) quality control.)

Machines equipped with a blade have the valve bracket welded to the frame and that parking brake bracket is welded to the valve bracket rather than the frame. We used the opportunity to weld the bracket(s) in proper alignment...which took all of maybe two minutes to do it right.

Photo of the brackets.

IMG_2576 2.jpg

Since we had the engine and transmission out, it seemed a good time to take a photo showing the various modifications to the Tucker frame. The new engine and transmission mounts are pictured, as well as the blade’s bolt-on support frame and the new cross member welded in position, complete with triangular gussets for additional support.

IMG_2575.jpg





 
……… great blog … and details … ive found similar quality control issues. LOL … thx BFT... if that's all it takes to ''shame'' a new blog... we all know what to do now... ha ha :clap::thumbup:... I noticed your front crossmember , over the fifth wheel..the pivot mount is different than mine. I think someone along the line did some custom changeovers.. not up to par, so to speak. would you post a few pics / angles ..of yours ...before you drop the engine back in... (hopefully its still lout )… awesome... thx , OO...….
 
olympicorange said:
……… great blog … and details … ive found similar quality control issues. LOL … thx BFT... if that's all it takes to ''shame'' a new blog... we all know what to do now... ha ha :clap::thumbup:... I noticed your front crossmember , over the fifth wheel..the pivot mount is different than mine. I think someone along the line did some custom changeovers.. not up to par, so to speak. would you post a few pics / angles ..of yours ...before you drop the engine back in... (hopefully its still lout )… awesome... thx , OO...….
Click to expand...

OO,

Truth to tell, I usually compose my thread posts in email form and then save them as a draft. Then I cut and paste the text and add photos. I find it easier to organize my thoughts and make revisions that way. But that also means I often have a post or two in reserve and ready to go...

The engine and transmission are back in Snowzilla. "Real time", we're working on the hydraulic pump mounting bracket, but I have several pictures from the Thundercat project, and the pivot mount setup is similar. Is there anything specific you'd like?
 
Pontoon Princess said:
hey hey hey

be nice, I have couple of them, there, hand cars and they are a ton of fun:eatdrink::eatdrink::eatdrink:
Click to expand...

PP,

Remember the line in the movie Casablanca when Claude Rains' character, Inspector Renault, closes Rick's cafe due to gambling? He says "I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here".

Well, that was my reaction to learning your collection includes railroad handcars. (Very Cool, BTW... but I'm still going to go with mock surprise in the form of "shocked".)

For those that would like to watch the actual Casablanca scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMIyDf3gBoY
 
well I can only add.......

"here's your winnings sir......."


kind of a kettle and pot observation. One persons hand rail car is anothers FJ-40......

Oh and for the record my collection went down one F-250 this week. :applause:

hoarders anonymous has been notified.... I can now devote .02% more attention to snow cat projects Or join the host of the midwest snow cat clowder on the rails he has a pair of Rail bikes and enjoys the silent side of motion on the rails. I am thinking a 17HP electric drive on a hand car. regen on the down hills..........
 
Blackfoot Tucker said:
OO,

Truth to tell, I usually compose my thread posts in email form and then save them as a draft. Then I cut and paste the text and add photos. I find it easier to organize my thoughts and make revisions that way. But that also means I often have a post or two in reserve and ready to go...

The engine and transmission are back in Snowzilla. "Real time", we're working on the hydraulic pump mounting bracket, but I have several pictures from the Thundercat project, and the pivot mount setup is similar. Is there anything specific you'd like?
Click to expand...
……. roger that....great... time is closing in … same boat here. I was just curious on the crossmember , where the front fifth wheel ''pivots''.... I want to clean up the ''mess'' on mine. and yours looked different , much better . a top view shot, and perhaps ..a left & right view...much appreciated...thx BFT...:thumbup::thumbup:
 
olympicorange said:
……. roger that....great... time is closing in … same boat here. I was just curious on the crossmember , where the front fifth wheel ''pivots''.... I want to clean up the ''mess'' on mine. and yours looked different , much better . a top view shot, and perhaps ..a left & right view...much appreciated...thx BFT...:thumbup::thumbup:
Click to expand...


….. oh.... I omitted … I had never thought of that … I was trying to figure out how to impose description , between pics.... but im lacks on typing... simple...simple... :thumbup:
 
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