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Muslims

Cityboy said:

No, but both my wife and myself do have bibles.

Could you please list the page and quote where speciffically (sp?) it states in the Koran where it is acceptable to kill by God and the reasons why it is acceptable (again from the Koran).

Since I don't own a Koran and don't practice Islam, I can't speak for the religion, but since I do associate with Muslims at times who have become American citizens (or work as consultants who are not a U.S citizen), I'd be curious to ask them about your thoughts on Islam as a whole as being a "murderus religion". Amazingly, some of these same muslims that I do come into contact with I find more intellegent and "forgiving" of other people's thoughts than some of the "close minded" local "fire and brimstone" local baptists who live in my county.

By the way, I have had friends killed while serving our country, and a relative as well, two years ago in Iraq.

I don't consider myself a "muslim loving commie" (that's somthing I hadn't heard in a while "kill a commie for mommy":D ), but someone who realizes that there are actually different people in this world who may not agree with my beliefs or religion as I understand it.

Now, from that last statement, please don't take me as trying to be too "PC", becuase yes, if the sky is blue, it's blue. I do think that there are some VERY dangerous Muslims in this world that do have a following that must either negotiated with or killed (and not all people who fight the U.S are "terrorists"), and we must stand up to them.

Did I tell you I picked up some good U.S made ammo the other day?:D I feel llike a kid in a candy store. More rounds than people who live in my county:thumb:
 
B_Skurka said:
Hmmm. I didn't criticize our country. Nor do I belong in the PC crowd or the blame-American first group. It is interesting to note that you imply I do when I simply make observations and state them. I think you are reading too much into what is written.

Actually you did Bob.---à
B_Skurka said:
I totally agree with you on this point! And not just Americans in Europe. There is a reason we are often called "ugly Americans!" We are an arrogant lot.


I find it interesting how you play both sides of the fence depending upon the issue. Sounds to me like you are trying to ride the PC pony, depending on which side of the argument you choose to be on at the time.

B_Skurka said:
Regarding lumping all the Muslims into one group that is easy to categorize (murders & condoners of murder) it is also interesting to hear your take on how Christians 'evolved' when so many Christians do not believe in evolution (at least those who take the literal word of the Bible as absolute).

I think YOU are reading too much into what is NOT written. I know Christians who believe in evolution; they just don’t subscribe to the Big Bang Theory portion. The bottom line is modern Christians are not waging and supporting jihad; modern Muslims are. You can continue to cite these issues of little relevance, but what does it actually prove in the overall scheme of this discussion? Sure, the Crusades involved Christians v. Muslims, and prior to that, Muslims were the aggressors. What does this prove today, in 2006? Are you trying to justify the actions of the Islamo-fascists by bringing up issues that occurred 1300 years ago?

The Islamic leaders of the Muslim world have proclaimed that their intent is to rule the world, and if they need to kill you and your family, Bob, they have no qualm in doing so if necessary; and the average Muslim on the street is silent on this issue. There is no outcry from the Muslim community that there is anything whatsoever wrong with this theology; yet we should give them the benefit of the doubt? I think not. These average everyday Muslims that you are defending would likely stand by and watch as your throat was slit along with those of your family. That makes them just as guilty as the ones actually doing the deed. Until these “peaceful” Muslims stand up en masse and renounce their murderous leaders, they are condoning Islamic terrorism by their silence.
 
Cityboy what I find interesting is that basically you and I are probably in much greater agreement than disagreement on the issue of terrorism and how to deal with it. Americans can be criticized without criticizing the country; questionable or controversial policy can be discusses from alternate points of view without disagreeing with them, but you seem to think that just because I mention something that I am criticizing it. Regarding Muslims we obviously disagree as I believe that they (just like every other group) can be divided up into at least 2 groups, those being good and bad. You lump all into one. I'm not really sure how you want all the world's Muslims to apologize for the actions of a few, nor am I sure how you want to all of them to denounce the convert or be killed ideology. Perhaps all of them should wear signs on their backs? Anyone who doesn't wear a sign is obviously a terrorist? FWIW the Crusades were not 1300 years ago, they stated about 1000 years ago and the last Crusaders were defeated as recently as during the reign of Neapolian, just over 200 years ago.
 
I can't help but throw some of my own thoughts in on this.

It was mentioned, not in so many words, that ANY fundamentalist is dangerous. I've beeen saying that for quite a few years. And I beleive that the "fundamentalist Muslims" are the real danger, as are so called "Christians" like Jim Jones for one, along with some of the other shirttail "Christian" groups in our own country.

A comment made by CB, I felt deserved my rebuttal. After 9/11, YES, many Muslim friends and business owners I know, DID apologize to me for what happened. Their businesses did decline for awhile afterward. But you know what? They thanked me for not being ignorant and narrow minded by thinking all Muslims would do that.
On that particular day, I found myself in a local gun shop. What happened had absolutely nothing to do why I was there, and I never made a run on the gas station or supermarket either. While looking at holsters, one the local hanger-outers, made the stupid statement, that we should rent a bus and head for Dearborn, the largest population of mideast people in the country. I made mention that I was indeed going there that evening, as I pulled a handgun out of my back pocket. My MIL was coming back from Russia, and we thought it best to get her out of Dearborn for the time being. Not that we thought the Muslims would be the trouble, but that the fundamental rednecks might be.:mad:


*Hey Doug, what ammo did you pickup? .223? I've got over my minimum of .223 and commie .308. Let the revolution begin!!!:yum::yum:
 
Crapload of .223, as much as I could fit into the back of my pickup truck (you would be surprised how many crates will fit:D ). Every once in a while, God gives you a gift for making friends. Got a phone call, wasn't looking for any (ammo), but then I was told to go and price out some out on the cheapest overseas stuff and almost fell over dead on how much it went up (compared to some years ago on my last "crapload" purchase, which was "small" compared to this "run"). Got in my truck and went.

By the way, if any goverment official is reading this, this is a work of fiction, and I did sell all my guns.

I have to adjust my tin foil hat, because we all know that our goverment would never do anything illegal, immoral or unethical (sp?).
 
I would think that most agree, not all Muslims are bad. Just like any other group, there are the good and bad ones.. What I believe is the big problem is, the "overall" contention that muslims are taught to kill infidels and that murder is OK, according to their religion. To hear constantly on any TV program, radio and other mediums,. that murder is OK in their religion, is what drives the over all "hate all muslims, or do not trust any muslim"... When we and others around the world are constantly reminded of these two statements, murder and infidels,, it creates an aura of no trust.
 
Wow, has this one take off...................

Looks like CB is getting beaten up for pointing out the reasons we are in a war with a mislim run enemy.. I, like him am not a fan of religion in general... Actually, I heard a quote in a movie a while back that sticks out in my mind because its true(in my mind). The quote: god is an imaginary freind for grown ups.. now, before I get totally slammed for that one, please understand that I completely respect and understand the devotion people have to their religion..(my grandparents were very religious) Hopefully you'll see my point when I finish, I dont expect anyone to agree as thats not my point at all.. Just want you to understand different perspectives..

I lived in Saudi Arabia as a child and can tell you more about the experience than most kids could tell you about their entire, pre graduation, life simply because it made a hell of an impression.. I lived there, went to school for 3yrs in an American/British school and lived in a compound of the same because we were not accepted.. My father(acutally whole family) was there to assist in building the CITY of Jeddah. They constructed many areas in that city, similar to the workers in Iraq that are being killed just because they dont agree with their religion(it is a religion thing, not a simple "your fighting against me" war)..Ever notice the only people beheaded on TV over there are workers?? In a long winded way, I'm trying to ask- who is right..... With the many religions in this world, who is right?? There are different laws(of each religion) and beliefs of what one should do, say, believe as well as where they go when they die and how they will be rewarded.. So, who is right? I worked with a woman one time whos religion told her that unless the church they worshiped in specificly named god in the name of the church, they were sining, meaning that you were going against god and likely would go to hell... They were of the christian faith and read the same bible many others do, but read it in a different way.. I'd bet that other christians would denounce this interppretation as being false or a missunderstanding.. What CB is trying to say, is, noone is denouncing the "misinterpretation" of the koran..Surely there are good people of the muslim faith, I know some and get along well with them, mainly because we dont talk about religion... Ones core beliefs are what gets them through life, some have been taught right and wrong from the bible,koran, other... While others have beed taught simply from life experience
with little biblical dictation..Is one really better than the other??

This goes back to the immaginary freind thing.. So many of the "religious" type of people I know are religious because of a stressfull section of life that they likely wouldnt get though without someone to talk to.. This is where your particular god would come in.. It really doent matter who or what you call god, just the fact that you have a belief in something strong enough to help you find your way.. I am in no way slamming any religion, each individual is entitled to his own belief and perspective of life and I respect that.. I'm not a religious person in the least, really dont group myself into any belief.. My immaginary frein d would probably be mother nature.. I can sit in the woods and figure my way out of anything life throws at me.. Some will call that god helping me, but some will say that since I'm not in church maybe its the devil.. I really dont care, I'll credit myself for figuring it out, I dont think I'm too ignorant to do so I'm proud of my accomplishments and find no need to praise anyone else for them.. Again, dont mean to offend, thats just my belief..

So, the muslim faith.............Has alla got it out for us Americans? I doubt it.. The koran is another book written by man, allowing for interpretation. Apparently the man who wrote the koran had dramaticly different veiws from the man who wrote the bible.. The crusades have been mentioned several times, so we need to remember that they were a holy war(correct?).. People disagreed with whos god was right.. So, they faught about it..The difference I see is that christians have differing beliefs within their religion, or different groups reading the same books with differing interpretations.. Muslims on the other hand, seem to have very similar beliefs from thier interpretation though some are willing to kill for their belief while others arent.. The fact that we have a free country and we see some of our leaders and popular figures, even citizens standing out and denouncing the war and religious beliefs on a regular basis, but NOONE is speaking out about the muslim extremists(from the musslim population) and denouncing the interpretation and portrayal that each death is in the name of alla(remember Zarkawi(?) beheading Berg?).. This is sending a message to the world that they agree, might not do it themselves, but they agree.. Immagine what would happen if someone claimed they would kill a person in the name of god, wait that has happened.... Others in the christian faith would swarm that individual and his beliefs would not grow.. Christians tend to be self regulating, so to speak, to keep their religion from being distorted too badly.. Muslims dont do that, therefore they must agree..Right??

I dont believe that the entire muslim population should be anielated(?), but apparently if this group wwere to go away, another would replace it because they agree with their beleifs.... Remember, this is a holly war that has been going on for ... ever... It wont go away, 10-15-100-1000yrs down the road, muslims will still believe their interpretation and fight christianity.. Its part of life guys.. They are more dedicated to the purity of their faith than we are(doesnt matter what your faith), they will not allow it to be morphed into something different, they dont want to evolve, they believe its wrong..
 
HGM said:
but NOONE is speaking out about the muslim extremists(from the musslim population) and denouncing the interpretation and portrayal that each death is in the name of alla(remember Zarkawi(?) beheading Berg?)..

I think both you and CB are incorrect in asserting that "no one" from the muslim community has denounced some of the barberic (sp) acts that have been committed in the past. At this point I could not provide the exact article and news source, but I do remeber seeing them.

I could almost promise you that if you took a large muslim/Islamic family and put them in the ignorant redneck county that I live in, well, I'm sure the way the "community" would interact with them would represent the American way of life VERY well. Heck, here, niggers are just niggers who are losing some jobs to all of the illegal mexicans who are still taking all the jobs away from us hardworking white people, and if you want to live in our county, you have to think like our county! (a recent quote from our county commisioner). Heck, just because I don't draw out my words and talk "southern" some people still look at me like I'm an "outsider". Heck, I've even been told by a couple of the "locals" that they had taken a trip up to see the union!

Yeesssir, we have some real "open minded", good people in our county.

Again, my point is that there are people you can reason with, some you cant, there are dumb people, smart people, good people, bad people, no matter what part of the world you are in or whatever thier religion is.
 
dzalphakilo said:
I think both you and CB are incorrect in asserting that "no one" from the muslim community has denounced some of the barberic (sp) acts that have been committed in the past. At this point I could not provide the exact article and news source, but I do remeber seeing them.

I could almost promise you that if you took a large muslim/Islamic family and put them in the ignorant redneck county that I live in, well, I'm sure the way the "community" would interact with them would represent the American way of life VERY well. Heck, here, niggers are just niggers who are losing some jobs to all of the illegal mexicans who are still taking all the jobs away from us hardworking white people, and if you want to live in our county, you have to think like our county! (a recent quote from our county commisioner). Heck, just because I don't draw out my words and talk "southern" some people still look at me like I'm an "outsider". Heck, I've even been told by a couple of the "locals" that they had taken a trip up to see the union!

Yeesssir, we have some real "open minded", good people in our county.

Again, my point is that there are people you can reason with, some you cant, there are dumb people, smart people, good people, bad people, no matter what part of the world you are in or whatever thier religion is.

I'm not totaly disagreeing with you, I actually agree to a point.. Quietly, some muslims are saying sorry, and disagreeing with the extremists.. But again, its quietly as if to say: sorry if we hurt you, my freind, but I agree with the ultimate goal..Several people in our country have called our troops cold blooded killers and denounced the war publicly, we have large goups trying to ban teaching evoloution(and prayer on the other hand) in school, when Brokeback Mountain came out, there was a huge outpouring of negativity towards it, many times throughout history people have been very outspoken against things they dont believe in. We have a public forum for disagreements to be made know.. My point is that you dont see an uprising agains the extremists, this tells me that they dont disagree...
 
HGM said:
I'm not totaly disagreeing with you, I actually agree to a point.. Quietly, some muslims are saying sorry, and disagreeing with the extremists.. But again, its quietly as if to say: sorry if we hurt you, my freind, but I agree with the ultimate goal..Several people in our country have called our troops cold blooded killers and denounced the war publicly, we have large goups trying to ban teaching evoloution(and prayer on the other hand) in school, when Brokeback Mountain came out, there was a huge outpouring of negativity towards it, many times throughout history people have been very outspoken against things they dont believe in. We have a public forum for disagreements to be made know.. My point is that you dont see an uprising agains the extremists, this tells me that they dont disagree...

And vise versa to the point that I do agree with you to a point as well.

I think it was a very farsighted thing to do when our goverment was formed and we tried to seperate church and state (to a point of course).

There may be more going on in Iraq than we are aware of. I'm certain that we do have support among some groups in that country. The issue as I see it is our lack of understanding of religious beliefs and the different groups that exist in that country. Seems that we are trying to force a "democratic process" on a culture that may not be ready for it, or may not want it at all. Heck, even I don't think that a democratic process would work in that country considering what they've been used to, but we ex[ect them to embrace it with open arms.

That being said, there is a tactical/military reason why we are now faced with a gurilla war, one that works to the advantage of our enemy.
 
dzalphakilo said:
Could you please list the page and quote where speciffically (sp?) it states in the Koran where it is acceptable to kill by God and the reasons why it is acceptable (again from the Koran).

How about PAGES? Here ya go:

KORAN commands to kill infidels:

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43

If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71

Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74

Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76
But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41
O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....

As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15

Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60

Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14
When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4 (different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5
Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9
The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

Fight them so that Allah may punish them at your hands, and put them to shame. (verse cited in Newsweek 2/11/02)
-------

KORAN promises of houris in heaven:
Single-minded slaves of Allah... will be honored in the Gardens of delight, on couches facing one another; A cup from a gushing spring is brought round for them, white, delicious to the drinkers, wherein there is no headache nor are they made mad thereby. And with them are those of modest gaze, with lovely eyes, pure as they were hidden eggs. - Surah 37:40-49

Lo, for those who ward off evil is a happy journey's end, Gardens of Eden, whereof the gates are opened for the, wherein, reclining, they call for plenteous fruit and cool drink therein. And with them are those of modest gaze, companions. This it is that ye are promised for the Day of Reckoning. - 38:50-54

Lo! Those who kept their duty will be in a place secure, amid gardens and water-springs, attired in silk and silk embroidery, facing one another.... And we shall wed them unto fair ones with wide, lovely eyes. They call therein for every fruit in safety. They taste not death therein, save the first death. And He hath saved them from the doom of hell, a bounty from thy Lord. That is the supreme triumph. - 44:51-57

Lo! Those who kept their duty dwell in gardens and delight... reclining on ranged couches. And we wed them unto fair ones with wide, lovely eyes... and we provide them with fruit and meat such as they desire.... - 52:17-22

...Reclining upon couches lined with silk brocade, the fruit of both the gardens near to hand.... Therein are those of modest gaze, whom neither man nor jinni will have touched before them.... - 55:54-56

Those are they who will be brought nigh, in gardens of delight... reclining therein face to face. There wait on them immortal youths... and fair ones with wide, lovely eyes, like unto hidden pearls, reward for what they used to do.... Lo! We have created them a creation, and made them virgins, lovers, friends. - 56:11-37

(Different translation) Companions with beautiful, big and lustrous eyes... virgin-pure and undefiled.
 
Hmm, I seem to have misplaced my copy of the Koran, but what you quote does not sound like love, understanding and tolerance.
 
Dargo said:
Hmm, I seem to have misplaced my copy of the Koran, but what you quote does not sound like love, understanding and tolerance.

Very true, by the same token, I could qoute the bible and it would sound just as worse.

Since I know nothing of the Koran, I have no clue on the "contex" from the quotes above.

Ultimately (sp?) if you are a TRUE Christian, follow the 10 commandments (which I like others here I'm sure, we fall short on).

I'm curious, has anyone here killed a man and see him die with you own eyes?
 
Dargo said:
Hmm, I seem to have misplaced my copy of the Koran, but what you quote does not sound like love, understanding and tolerance.

Please keep in mind the following posts were only copied and pasted here for reading.

Honestly, I'm not educated enough to "debate" the merits or "inhumanity" of Islam and those beliefs.

I do not consider myself a Islam "lover" nor "hater" (I am of the Russian Orthodox faith) , but would like to think that ignorance of others and what they beleive compared to what you or I believe is the "common ground" for mistrust and hatred.

I also think that when you talk about the destruction of a "people" due to thier faith, god help us all.


The Qur'an commands Muslims to stick up for themselves in a defensive battle -- i.e. if an enemy army attacks, then Muslims are to fight against that army until they stop their aggression. All of the verses that speak about fighting/war in the Qur'an are in this context.

There are some specific verses that are very often "snipped" out of context, either by those trying to malign the faith, or by misguided Muslims themselves who wish to justify their aggressive tactics.



For example, one verse (in its snipped version) reads: "slay them wherever you catch them" (Qur'an 2:191). But who is this referring to? Who are "they" that this verse discusses? The preceding and following verses give the correct context:
"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevails justice and faith in God; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression" (2:190-193).


It is clear from the context that these verses are discussing a defensive war, when a Muslim community is attacked without reason, oppressed and prevented from practicing their faith. In these circumstances, permission is given to fight back -- but even then Muslims are instructed not to transgress limits, and to cease fighting as soon as the attacker gives up. Even in these circumstances, Muslim are only to fight directly against those who are attacking them, not innocent bystanders or non-combatants.

Another similar verse can be found in chapter 9, verse 5 -- which in its snipped, out of context version could read: "fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)." Again, the preceding and following verses give the context.

This verse was revealed during a historical period when the small Muslim community had entered into treaties with neighboring tribes (Jewish, Christian, and pagan). Several of the pagan tribes had violated the terms of their treaty, secretly aiding an enemy attack against the Muslim community. The verse directly before this one instructs the Muslims to continue to honor treaties with anyone who has not since betrayed them, because fulfilling agreements is considered a righteous action. Then the verse continues, that those who have violated the terms of the treaty have declared war, so fight them... (as quoted above).

Directly after this permission to fight, the same verse continues, "but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them... for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." The subsequent verses instruct the Muslims to grant asylum to any member of the pagan tribe/army who asks for it, and again reminds that "as long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for God loves the righteous."

Any verse that is quoted out of context misses the whole point of the message of the Qur'an. Nowhere in the Qur'an can be found support for indiscriminate slaughter, the killing of non-combatants, or murder of innocent persons in 'payback' for another people's alleged crimes.


The Islamic teachings on this subject can be summed up in the following verses (Qur'an 60:7-8):
"It may be that God will grant love (and friendship) between you and those whom ye (now) hold as enemies. For God has power (over all things), and God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. God does not forbid you, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loves those who are just."​
 
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Muslims claim that their faith promotes justice, peace, and freedom. Critics of the faith (and some Muslims themselves) cite verses from the Qur'an that seem to promote violent, armed warfare. How can these different images be reconciled?

The entire Qur'an, taken as a complete text, gives a message of hope, faith, and peace to a faith community of one billion people. The overwhelming message is that peace is to be found through faith in God, and justice among fellow human beings.

At the time the Qur'an was revealed (7th century A.D.), there was no United Nations or Amnesty International to keep the peace or expose injustice. Inter-tribal violence and vengeance was commonplace. As a matter of survival, one must have been willing to defend against aggression from all sides. Nevertheless, the Qur'an repeatedly urges forgiveness and restraint, and warns believers not to "transgress" or become "oppressors." Some examples:

If anyone slays a person
- unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land -
it would be as if he slew all people.
And if anyone saves a life,
it would be as if he saved the life of all people.

Qur'an 5:32
Invite all to the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching.
And argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious . . .
And if you punish,
let your punishment be proportional to the wrong that has been done to you.
But if you show patience, that is indeed the best course.
Be patient, for your patience is from God.
And do not grieve over them, or distress yourself because of their plots.
For God is with those who restrain themselves, and those who do good.
Qur'an 16:125-128
Oh you who believe!
Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God,
even against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin,
and whether it be against rich or poor,
for God can best protect both.
Follow not the cravings of your hearts, lest you swerve,
and if you distort justice or decline to do justice,
verily God is well acquainted with all that you do.
Qur'an 4:135
The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree),
but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from God,
for God loves not those who do wrong.
But indeed, if any do help and defend themselves after a wrong done to them,
against such there is no cause of blame.
The blame is only against those who oppress men with wrongdoing
and insolently transgress beyond bounds through the land,
defying right and justice,
for such there will be a penalty grievous (in the Hereafter).
But indeed, if any show patience and forgive,
that would truly be an affair of great resolution.
Qur'an 42:40-43
Goodness and evil are not equal.
Repel evil with what is better.
Then that person with whom there was hatred,
may become your intimate friend!
And no one will be granted such goodness
except those who exercise patience and self-restraint,
none but people of the greatest good fortune.
Qur'an 41:34-35

But what about those passages of the Qur'an that seem to promote wanton violence? One of the verses most often quoted (2:191) seems to command Muslims to "slay them wherever you find them." But who are "they?" Is it any non-Muslim or "infidel?" One merely needs to read the preceding verse to find the answer: "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not the transgressors" (2:190). In subsequent verses, Muslims are called upon to stop fighting when the opposing party ceases its aggression.

There are other, similar, verses calling on Muslims to defend themselves. However, each one is likewise qualified and limited in scope -- they cannot be interpreted as giving a Muslim free license to kill anyone, anywhere, for whatever reason. Muslim scholars have analyzed these verses again and again, taking into account the scriptural and historical context of the revelation. These and other verses are discussed in the following online articles:
 
The Qur'an says:
... that whoever took a life7, unless it be for murder or for spreading disorder on earth8, it would be as if he killed all mankind; and whoever saved a life, it would be as if he saved all mankind. (5:32)
And:
And he who kills a believer intentionally, his reward is Hell; he shall remain therein forever... (4:93)
How can someone who believes in this book commit murder?
Here's how:
In his mind -- and perhaps even in his heart -- the murder he commits is not murder: it is an act of virtue.
Those who do evil can be of two kinds. There are those who know that the evil they do is evil, and there are those who don't. In fact, those of the latter kind might even be absolutely certain that the evil they do is not evil but virtue. When that is the case, murder and terrorism can, in their minds, become Jihad.
The good intentions of these 'pious evil-doers' might become an excuse for them on the Day of Judgement, but in this worldly life of ours, when murder and terrorism are the issue, their error of judgement -- howsoever noble their intentions might be -- does not, in any way, exonerate them from the responsibility for causing disruption and disorder in society. Therefore, these people need to be dealt with -- and when human lives and law and order are at stake, there can be two ways of doing that: either you succeed in convincing them that their 'virtue' is actually evil and that their Jihad is in reality Fasad9 or Muharabah10 or you sentence them to death.
Two pertinent questions are: how do you convince them? and would the State be morally justified if, after having taken reasonable measures to solve the problem through dialogues and discussions, it has to award them the death punishment?
To convince such Islamist groups as resort to murder and terrorism that, howsoever noble the goals, their methods are against the teachings of their own religion, one has to understand the arguments they themselves use to justify their deeds. Of such arguments some of the more important ones are discussed here.
One of their arguments is based on a narration in which the Prophet (sws) is reported to have said:
He amongst you who sees any wrong should change it with his hand11; if that is not possible for him, then with his tongue; if that is not possible for him, then [he should condemn it] in his heart -- and that is the weakest level of faith. (Muslim, Kitabu'l-Iman)
Ghamidi points out that this statement of the Prophet (sws) has a specific context in reference to which the statement merely means that it is the duty of every Muslim to try for the eradication of evil within the confines of the social and legal authority he or she has12. For example, parents are afforded the authority by the conventions of society to use some mild form of physical punishment, if required, for the proper upbringing of their children. This obviously does not mean that they have the authority to batter their children. Similarly, the government -- a court of law to be more precise -- has the legal authority to award a suitable sentence to an offender if he is found guilty. Now, if some parents did not use their authority to stop their children from becoming heroin addicts, they would certainly be at a weaker level of faith, especially if physical punishment of a sort would have helped and it were love which stopped them from using their authority. Love does not mean that you let those you love do wrong. Similarly, a judge who, under some pressure, gave a lighter punishment to an offender would certainly be at a weaker level of faith. Indeed, in the absence of a reasonable excuse, he might even be regarded as being devoid of faith altogether on the Day of Judgement.
The Prophet of Allah (sws) never took the law into his own hands. During the thirteen years he preached Islam in Makkah, he never went beyond the confines of the law of the land. The few companions and followers he had during those years were indeed more loyal to him -- and hardly any Muslim would doubt that -- than his followers today can ever claim to be. Many a Muslim today will hardly take any time to decide that it is a matter of his faith to kill anyone -- even the most influential person around -- who blasphemes -- or is even suspected of blaspheming -- against the Prophet (sws). But the followers of the Prophet (sws) never murdered even a single of his opponents even when he was pelted with stones at Ta'if. In Makkah, invectives were hurled against him day and night, yet none of his followers regarded it a matter of his faith to kill a few offenders to avenge the Prophet (sws). Had all of his companions -- even those truly close to him as Abu Bakar (raa) and Ali (raa) -- chosen to remain at a weaker level of faith? And had the Prophet (sws) himself chosen not to do anything about the weak faith of his companions? Why didn't he exhort them to do something in retaliation?
It was only after the Prophet (sws) had established an independent State at Madinah that laws were enacted and implemented by him -- and that too was done gradually so as to avoid imbalance in society. The reason for this restraint is that in Islam armed struggle is allowed only at the level of the State13. An individual or a group is not permitted to wage an armed struggle so that anarchy does not prevail in society.
Militant struggle by an individual or a group in an Islamic State amounts to Fasad (disorder, disruption, etc) or, when it becomes a rebellion against the State, Khuruj (rebellion, revolt, etc). In either case, the Islamic State has the right to give the militants a severe death sentence.14 Only when certain conditions have been met is Khuruj allowed.15
The militant Islamists would argue that (a) the government in Pakistan is not Islamic and (b) they -- the militants -- are fighting against Kuffar (sing. Kafir: infidel), who ought to be killed to save Islam from its enemies.
It should be obvious from the points made above that even if Pakistan were not an Islamic State and some of those accepted by the State as Muslims were Kuffar, there would still be no room in Islam for the militant Islamists to take the law into their own hands and kill people. The militants are not more pious than the Prophet (sws) and his close companions (raa).
But let's take a look at this stance as well. Does a State having a morally and religiously corrupt government become un-Islamic? And who has the right to declare a group (or a person) in the Ummah (the whole Muslim community) as non-Muslims or Kuffar?
The Islamic principle on which a State is founded is described in the Qur'an (42:38) in the words amruhum shura baynahum (their affairs are through consultation amongst them)16. This principle entails that the State affairs be run by the vote of the majority of Muslim citizens. When a people establish their government in a geographically independent area over which they have power and authority, the State is formed. Therefore, when the majority of Muslims in a geographically independent area, over which they have power and authority, form their own government through consultation -- elections in modern times --, that government, in accordance with the verse quoted above, represents the Islamic State. Allegiance to that government is a religious obligation on the Muslim citizens of that State17:
Obey Allah and the Prophet and those who are in authority among you. Then if there is difference of opinion among you, refer it back to Allah and the Prophet (The Qur'an 4:59)

It is evident from this verse that even in case of any difference of opinion regarding the interpretation of the contents of religion, the matter should be resolved through the Qur'an and the Sunnah18 rather than through guns. And, from the verse quoted earlier (42:38), it is clear that the verdict of the majority of the Muslims regarding the correct interpretation must be accepted as the law of the land. Thereafter, those who dissent do have the right to express their points of view in a peaceful and constitutional manner, but they do not have the right to create a law and order situation or rebel against the State. In Muslim's Kitabu'l-Imarah, the Prophet (sws) is reported to have said19:
You are organised under the rule of a person and someone tries to break your collectivity apart or disrupt your government, kill him.
It is only when a Muslim is ordered to do something against the directives of Allah or of the Prophet (sws) is he required to disobey those with political and legal authority in the system he lives in. The Prophet (sws) is reported to have said (Muslims, Kitabu'l-Imarah)20:
Whether they like it or not, it is obligatory on the faithful to listen to and obey their rulers except that they be ordered to commit sin. If they are ordered to commit sin, they should neither listen nor obey.
The Qur'anic words 'obey Allah and the Prophet...' require that a Muslim not obey any command against the directives of Allah and the Prophet (sws). But even then, he is not allowed to disrupt the system or commit murders. The reason is that when a government is formed in accordance with the Qur'anic principle of amruhum shura baynahum and can be changed or deposed on the same basis, any rebellion against that government amounts to a rebellion against the collectivity of Muslims, which in Islamic terminology, is Muharabah and which, as the statement of the Prophet (sws) quoted earlier explains, is an offence punishable by death.
Prominent people of this Ummah as Abu Hanifah, Imam Malik ibn Anas and Ahmad Ibn Hambal never resorted to violence, vandalism, terrorism or rebellion in spite of facing extreme hardships to propagate the truth.21 In Al-Masa'il al-Rasa'il al Marwiyyah 'an Ahmad ibn Hambal, Ahmad ibn Hambal is reported to have said:
Far be it from Allah [all that is wrongly associated with Him], blood is but blood22. I do not believe in it nor do I recommend it. Enduring what is on us23 is better than disruption, in which blood is shed, people's wealth is expropriated and things and matters sacred are desecrated.24
In Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hambal25, the Prophet (sws) is reported to have said26:
I order you five things: pledging allegiance to the State, listening to and obeying [your rulers in that State], Hijrah27and Jihad in the way of Allah.
In Bukhari's Kitabu'l-Fitan, the Prophet (sws) is also reported to have said28:
He who sees something despicable in his ruler should bear with it, for he who detaches himself to the slightest degree from the State and dies in that condition shall die the death of ignorance.
In another version in the same collection of his sayings, the Prophet (sws) is reported to have said29:
He who sees something despicable in his ruler should bear with it, for he who detaches himself to the slightest degree from the Sovereignty and dies in that condition shall die the death of ignorance (Kitabu'l-Fitan)
Ghamidi explains that in these two versions, the words Al-Jama'ah (the State) and Al-Sultan (the Sovereignty) have been used interchangeably, which clearly shows that this directive of the Prophet (sws) pertains to such a body as has political sovereignty in a geographically independent area in which there is a system of government.30
It should be obvious from the arguments given above that the government in Pakistan, which is brought to power through the mandate given to it by the majority vote of the Muslim citizens is the embodiment of the sovereignty of the State and as such it represents the State. Therefore, a Muslim does not have the right to rebel against the government (Similar opinions are also held by some of the earliest and very highly venerated Muslim political thinkers like Al-Mawardi (Al-Ahkamu'l-Sultaniyyah w'al-Wilayat), Nizamu'l- Mulk (Siyarul-Muluk) and (especially) Ghazali (Nasihatu'l-Muluk). It is indeed the duty of a Muslim to propagate the truth with wisdom and sagacity and, if need be, with personal sacrifice. The way the likes of Ahmad Ibn Hambal, Malik Ibn Anas and Abu Hanifah bore persecution at the hands of the rulers of their respective times is a testimony to the fact that the prominent scholars of Islam have never shirked from making sacrifices for the sake of truth, yet have always distanced themselves from vandalism, terrorism, disruption and rebellion even if the rulers were morally corrupt. Indeed, it is this kind of propagation which was termed as a great Jihad by the Prophet (sws). In Tirmidhi's Kitabu'l-Fitan,he is reported to have said31:
Verily, words of truth and justice are a great Jihad especially when said in front of an oppressive ruler.
Ghamidi has explained in detail the conditions that must be fulfilled before rebellion against the State is allowed.32 A brief mention of these conditions would not be out of place here:
The first condition is that the rulers unequivocally deny Islam or any of its directives. The fourth verse of the 59th chapter of Qur'an quoted earlier points out that obedience to rulers is obligatory as long as they are from within the Muslims ('those in authority among you').
The Prophet (sws) is also reported to have laid down the same condition for refusal to accept the authority of the rulers.
... when you see unequivocal denial by them and in a matter regarding which you have an explicit directive from Allah. (Muslim, Kitabu'l-Imarah)
The second and the third conditions, based on amruhum shura baynahum -- 'their affairs are by consultation among them' (the Qur'an 42:38) --, are that the government against which Khuruj is taken place should be a dictatorship which does not enjoy the support of the masses and that the leader of the Khuruj should be a person who has the indubitable support of the nation.
All these conditions are essential in that even if one of them is missing, Khuruj is not permissible.
Furthermore, in case of militant struggle, there is another condition: the rebels must migrate to another land and form an independent State there.
Before discussing the basis and the reason for this condition, it would be pertinent to point out here that the militant Islamists often term all their subversive activities as Jihad. Actually, Jihad is a nomen verbum of Jahada, which means to make one's utmost effort. In Islamic terminology, the word denotes one's utmost effort in the way of Allah. One of the connotations of the word is making one's utmost effort in a militant struggle for Allah. In that sense it is used as a synonym for Qital fi sabil Allah (killing in the way of Allah), which is the more precise term for any kind of militant religious struggle -- be it a battle or war or a rebellion (Khuruj). And in any case, Qital fi sabil Allah is a prerogative of the State. In other words, in Islam there is no concept of Jihad or Qital (militant struggle) of any kind without the authority of the State.
The basis for this condition is that God Almighty did not ever give the permission to use the sword even to the Prophets (sws), who are the final manifestation of the truth for their people, until they had established their rule over their followers as their political sovereigns after migrating with them to another land and forming an independent State there. Moses (sws) was given the directive for Jihad only after this condition had been met and, similarly, the Prophet (sws) and his followers were also allowed to do Jihad only when after the Pledge of 'Aqabah they were able to establish an independent State at Yathrib (later known as Madinah).33
The reason for this condition is that without the authority of the State Jihad often becomes Fasad. A group which does not even have the legal authority to sentence a criminal cannot be allowed to gamble with the lives and property of people. For this reason, Muslim jurists have always regarded this condition as essential:
And the third category of collective duties is one in which [the authority] of the Head of the State is a necessary condition, for example Jihad and the implementation of the Islamic law of punishments.34

This is the gist of augments given by Ghamdi for the conditions for Khuruj. Earlier, Hamidu'l-Din Farahi and Amin Ahsan Islahi, two prominent exegetes of the Qur'an, had also expressed similar views in very strong tones. Writes Farahi:
Jihad in one's own country is not allowed unless one migrates to another land. Accounts of Abraham's life (sws) and other verses [of the Qur'an] related to Hijrah (migration) also point up this principle. The events of the Prophet's life (sws) also corroborate it. The reason for this principle is that without the authority of one who represents the collectivity of the Muslims in the State and has political sovereignty, Jihad is merely chaos and disruption and anarchy and disorder.35
Amin Ahsan Islahi, makes the following comments on the same principle:
The first reason [for this condition] is that God Almighty does not like the disruption and disintegration of even an evil system until a strong probability exists that those out to disintegrate the system will provide people with an alternative, righteous system. Anarchy and disorder are unnatural conditions. In fact, they are so contrary to human nature that even an unjust system is preferable to them. For this reason, God Almighty has not given the right to wage war to a group which is dubious and obscure, the power and authority of which is undefined, which is without the sovereignty of a ruler, the loyalty and obedience of which is untested and the members of which are disorganised and undisciplined -- who can disrupt a system but cannot prove that they have the ability to integrate a disintegrated environment. This confidence [that a group will be able to create harmony and integrate a disorganised environment into an organised system] can only be reposed in such a group as has actually formed a political government and has such control and discipline within the confines of its authority that it can be termed as Al-Jama'ah [the government as a representative of the State]. Until a group attains this position, it can strive to become Al-Jama'ah [through religiously allowable and through legal and constitutional means] -- and that endeavour of its would be its Jihad for that time -- but it does not have the right to wage an armed Jihad and a war.

The second reason is that the import of the authority which a group engaged in war gets over the life and property of human beings is so great that such authority cannot be given to a group in which the authority of the leader over his followers is merely moral36. Mere moral authority is not a sufficient guarantee that the leader will be able to stop his followers from Fasad fi'l-Ard37. Therefore, a religious leader does not have the right to allow his followers to take out their swords38 merely on the basis of his spiritual relationship with them, for once the sword is unsheathed there is great danger that it will not care for right and wrong and that those who drew it will end up doing all [the wrong which] they had sought to end. Those revolutionary groups the object of which is nothing more than disruption of the existing system and deposition of the ruling party to seize power for themselves play such games -- and they can, for in their eyes disruption of a system is no calamity, nor is cruelty of any kind an evil. Everything is right to them [as long as it serves their purpose]. However, the leaders of a just and righteous group must see whether they are in a position to provide people with a system better than the one they seek to change and whether they will be able to stop their followers from doing such wrong as they themselves had sought to root out. If they are not in that position, then they do not have the right to play games with the lives and property of people on the basis of their confidence in mere chances or create greater disorder than the one they had sought to end.39
It should be obvious from the passage quoted above that the right to wage war cannot be given to a group of individuals, who do not even have the legal authority to award punishment to a criminal. Without political sovereignty, Jihad is often nothing short of Fasad. Thus, such militant groups as mislead their followers into believing that their terrorism is a form of Jihad have no Islamic basis whatsoever for their claim.40
Now, let us analyse the next argument of the Islamist militants: that they only kill Kuffar41, who are out to destroy Islam. Let's see who is really a Kafir (singular of Kuffar) and who is not. And let's also take a look at whether any individual or group has the authority to declare a Muslim a Kafir.
Ghamidi believes that Takfir, or declaring anyone a Kafir, was the prerogative of the Prophet (sws) -- who did that on the basis of Divine revelation. The authorized companions of the Prophet (sws) had the Divine sanction to give the punishment for Takfir to other specified non-Muslim nations apart from the direct addressees of the Prophet (sws) on the basis of Itmamu'l-Hujjah done by him. After the Prophet (sws) and his Companions, no one has the right to declare anyone a kafir.
The reasons Ghamidi gives for this principle are as follows:
A Kafir as a Qur'anic term refers to one who denies a Rasul even after the truth of his message has been made absolutely clear to him. Such manifestation of the truth by those messengers of God (termed Rusul; sing. Rasul) who are sent as His final judgment to a people may be termed as Itmamu'l-Hujjah. This takfir, therefore, is actually done by God Himself. The polytheists of Banu Isma'il received death punishment on this basis as is described in Surah Tawbah (9:5 & 9:11). Of the Prophet's direct addressees, the People of the Book were given other punishments (described in the same surah) but were spared the death punishment as they did not profess polytheism as their faith.42
The Prophet (sws) was the last messenger of God. With his status as a Rasul, the Prophet (sws) was in a position to do Itmamu'l-Hujjah even as an individual. No one after him has that privilege. No individual can do Itmamu'l-Hujjah now because no individual can claim that his propagation has manifested the truth to the extent that no excuse is left to deny it. Indeed, an individual cannot even be absolutely certain of having understood the truth absolutely correctly. He can only be certain that God will reward him for doing his duty as he has 'been given the light to see it'. Only the Prophet's word (sws) is final in religion. According to Ghamidi, after the Prophet (sws), the responsibility of bearing witness to the truth of Islam was passed on to his Companions43, who were declared Ummah Wasat (the intermediate people) and the shuhada 'ala'l-Nas (witnesses over people).44 The Qur'an says:
He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the religion of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this [Qur'an]: [He chose you so that] the Rasul may be a witness [of this religion] to you, and you be witnesses of this religion to non-Muslims [of your time]. (22:78)
Thus we have made you an intermediate group so that you be witnesses [of this religion] over the nations, and the Rasul be such a witness over you. (2:143)
Ghamidi believes that this special status of the Companions ended with them, no one now has the right to declare anyone a Kafir or to punish him on that basis.
As far as the issue of declaring someone a non-Muslim is concerned, Ghamidi regards it as essentially a legal one. Therefore, in his opinion only the state has the right to decide in this regard. A person who professes Islam is a Muslim unless the Islamic State, which represents the opinion of the Muslims in a land, declares him otherwise. Ideally, effort should be made to convince him of a truth (without coercing him in any manner). If it all he has to be declared a non-Muslim, it should preferably be done at the level of not one Islamic State but at the level of a body representing all Islamic States so that a person is not a Muslim in one Islamic State and a non-Muslim in another. According to Ghamidi, the Qur'anic guideline to the Islamic State in this regard in Surah Tawbah (9:5 & 9:11) is that a person who professes to be a Muslim should be considered one if he:
  1. accepts the fundamentals of Islam (what are those fundamentals can again be decided on the basis of amruhim shura baynahum in relation to the Qur'an and the Sunnah).
  2. says the obligatory prayer, and
  3. pays zakah (the obligatory payment of tax on Muslims).45
However, all these principles do not indicate that Muslims should be indifferent to dissents and heresies in religion. It is especially incumbent upon scholars and intellectuals to carry on the task of Da'wah (propagation of the truth) and of Indhar (admonition).
Experience has shown that scholars and intellectuals can best fulfil this responsibility by staying out of politics. It is indeed very fortunate when a political leader is religious, but when a religious leader is political he usually ends up being neither a politician nor a religious leader. Moreover, religious leaders need to understand that there are occasions when speaking out the truth is a requirement of faith and there are occasions when restraining oneself is a requirement of sagacity -- and that the Qur'an requires Da'wah with wisdom and sagacity: a Da'wah which vanquishes the hearts of people rather than killing or battering them.46
Some militant Islamists also argue that their militancy is for self-defence. Their argument is that as a result of their Da'wah, opposing groups become aggressive, which entails self-defence.
There is a big difference between what can legitimately be termed as 'self-defence' and the 'aggression for the sake of self-defence' that these Islamists usually commit. Extending the meaning of self-defence to include downright aggression is carrying things too far. Many of these groups argue that not retaliating to aggression is a Christian attitude of 'turning the other cheek'. Islam gives the concept of Qisas, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.
It should be borne in mind that an Islamic State has not only the responsibility but also the sole authority to implement the Law of Qisas. Qisas has often been rendered into English as 'retaliation'47 -- a translation which has misled many into believing that personal vendettas are allowed -- in fact encouraged -- in Islam (for example, a report on terrorism 'Bosnia -- A Springboard for Terrorism' prepared by a special task force of the U.S. Senate presents the same view of Islam, which viewpoint is further stressed in the Task Force's reply to a letter of protest by the American Muslim Council). It seems that the argument rests on an incorrect understanding of a Qur'anic verse:
And whoever is killed unjustly, We have given his heir the authority. Therefore, he [the heir] should not exceed in killing, for verily he has been helped. (17:33)
The last part of the verse 'for verily he has been helped' refers to the fact that the State and the law are on his side. 'We have given his heir the authority' means that the heir has the authority to either demand Qisas or forgive the offender. 'He should not exceed in killing' means that since the society is now on the heir's side he should not exceed the limits either by taking the law into his own hand or by demanding a greater punishment than what the offender actually deserves. Ghamidi points out that the fact the Islamic penal laws were implemented only after the establishment of the State and the fact that the whole society has specifically been addressed in most Qur'anic verses (for instance 6:178-179 and 5:45) pertaining to these laws prove beyond doubt that the directive of implementing the law of Qisas relate to the whole society -- which obviously works through the State and its organs (as the judiciary in this case)48. Therefore, lynching and engaging in personal vendettas have no room in Islam. As already explained, prominent Muslim jurists have always maintained that in some matters related to the collectivity of the Muslims, the authority of the Sovereignty is a necessary condition, for example Jihad (that is Qital) and the implementation of the law of punishments (Iqamatu'l-Hudud):
And the third category of collective responsibility is that in which the authority of the Sovereignty is a necessary condition, for example Jihad and the law of punishments.49
Nothing could be farther from the truth than the idea that Qisas refers to retaliation by an individual or a group. Such retaliation, even if equal harm is done to the offender, simply negates the purpose of the law of Qisas. The words of the Qur'an 'In Qisas there is life for you' refer to the fact that when the State does not provide the people in a society with justice, they often resort to personal vendettas and revenge, which shake the very foundation on which the edifice of a social set-up rests.
A Muslim who has been wronged has the right to demand Qisas and it is the duty of the State to provide him with justice. The Qur'an entails that much. But the Qur'an also goes further than that. It gives a high place to an attitude of forgiveness. Turning the other cheek is not merely a Christian attitude. Jesus (sws) was not telling the judge in a court of law to turn the other cheek while deciding the fate of a serial killer. He was not telling that to the State facing an enemy State in war. He was telling that to a preacher out to conquer the hearts of people. To conquer hearts one never slays, but is slain. One does not take revenge, but forgives. These are the rules for a preacher. Though not the law, they are a great honour and a great privilege. The Qur'an says:
The good and the evil are not equal. Repel evil with that which is better than all others; then you will see that he, between whom and you there was enmity, has become as if he were a truly close friend. And this sagacity is not afforded to anyone except those who persevere and this wisdom is not granted except to those who are indeed very fortunate. And if you feel any evil incitement from Satan, seek refuge of Allah. Verily, He is the Hearer, the knower. (41:34-36)
This is the attitude of a Muslim towards those who wrong him because of his Da'wah -- an attitude the Qur'an terms as something truly sublime. With this line of thinking, how is it possible to think of retaliation and personal vengeance? And more than that, how is it possible for any Muslim to believe that he will be able to justify himself on the Day of Judgement for killing innocent people?
 
Cityboy, don't take this as my PC opinion. I am trying to present the views from the other side here to give you an idea of where they may be coming from - not saying what is right or wrong.

The hatred for Jews is universal in the Muslim community - here in Canada and in the middle-ease. I spent a year in Kuwait pre-war and here are my thoughts. (The workforce was largely Palestinian in Kuwait). The muslims hate the Jews and blame them for trying to take over the world and for taking Palestine. The U.S. spends a fortune to bolster Israel's army so that the Jews can continue to gobble up Palestine - even when the U.N. mandates that it's against the law. When people wonder why the U.S. is so hated amongst the Muslim world, this is why (IMO). The U.S. has the strength to make the U.N. ignore mandates against Israel and also have the strength to pick and choose which mandates will be acted upon - with or without the U.N..
 
beds said:
The U.S. has the strength to make the U.N. ignore mandates against Israel and also have the strength to pick and choose which mandates will be acted upon - with or without the U.N..

And thank god for that! :thumb:
 
dzalphakilo said:
For myself, the muslims are not the problem, but those dang money hungry Jews. They control the U.S economy, give intellegence from our country to "thier" country, and before you know it, we will all be under thier control. I'm not talking about some Jews, but ALL of them. Heck, we should just round them up and put them in some kind of camp.

This may or may not have been made as a "tongue in cheek" post, but I personally find this to be offensive. I find this just as offensive as the people that have been saying that all Muslims are bad. I don't like what is happening in Iraq any more than anyone else, but I don't agree that all Muslims are evil, any more than I believe that all members of any other religion are evil. The rhetoric that has been displayed by some is just as reprehensible as any post can be. I have pretty much decided to stay out of the discussion forum because I don't care to get into debates with people that have a closed minds, but once again, I will state, that as both a moderator of these forums and an individual member of the forums, that bigotry of any nature is reprehensible. Junk...
 
Junkman said:
This may or may not have been made as a "tongue in cheek" post, but I personally find this to be offensive. I find this just as offensive as the people that have been saying that all Muslims are bad. I don't like what is happening in Iraq any more than anyone else, but I don't agree that all Muslims are evil, any more than I believe that all members of any other religion are evil. The rhetoric that has been displayed by some is just as reprehensible as any post can be. I have pretty much decided to stay out of the discussion forum because I don't care to get into debates with people that have a closed minds, but once again, I will state, that as both a moderator of these forums and an individual member of the forums, that bigotry of any nature is reprehensible. Junk...

This is exactly what I was referring to in my very first post in this thread. If this kind of discussion is offensive to you, why even bother to read it? People have opinions on a subject and voice them. You have an opinion of the people who are voicing their opinions rather than voicing your own opinion on the actual subject matter. If this thread offends you, you have the sole right not to participate. If you are so thinned skinned that others voicing their opinions "offends" you, then perhaps you should consider not getting your digs in in the first place.

Junkman said:
I have pretty much decided to stay out of the discussion forum because I don't care to get into debates with people that have a closed minds, but once again, I will state, that as both a moderator of these forums and an individual member of the forums, that bigotry of any nature is reprehensible.

This is an example of making an issue personal instead of actually addressing the subject. If you do not care to "get into debates with people that have closed minds", then why are you commenting on the participants in this debate in the first place? When I see comments like this, my smartass side wants to retort that "some people are so open minded that their brain has fallen out"; however I am working hard at controlling my responses. You should try it as well.

If you wish to defend Islam, then by all means defend it. If you believe it is a wonderful, peaceful, loving, harmony-seeking religion despite all the evidence to the contrary; then present your facts and leave your personal opinion of the participants out of it. To me, many people who call others "intolerant" are actually just as intolerant of other peoples views, if not more so; and would gladly impose their definition of "tolerance" upon others "for their own good", if they could.
 
Junkman said:
This may or may not have been made as a "tongue in cheek" post, but I personally find this to be offensive. I find this just as offensive as the people that have been saying that all Muslims are bad. I don't like what is happening in Iraq any more than anyone else, but I don't agree that all Muslims are evil, any more than I believe that all members of any other religion are evil. The rhetoric that has been displayed by some is just as reprehensible as any post can be. I have pretty much decided to stay out of the discussion forum because I don't care to get into debates with people that have a closed minds, but once again, I will state, that as both a moderator of these forums and an individual member of the forums, that bigotry of any nature is reprehensible. Junk...

Apologies, I was trying to make it offensive, although not my true thoughts or feelings, I was trying to prove a point.

Although I particulalry don't like these type of discussions where people "catagorize" everyone into one group, the sad fact of the matter is that you do have to fight for what you believe in to some extent.

Picture this, some years down the road the U.S goverment decides to send all Muslims into camps (for whatever reasons). They go around collecting people due to just thier religion or beliefs. You have people who you call friends come to your house because they are scared of our goverment and what might happen to themdue to the fact that they are Muslims. The goverment comes knocking at your door. What do you do? Feel sad and say "here they are"?

To some extent I associate this type of "goverment action" thinking with exactly what happen to the Jewish population in Germany before and during world war 2, when Germans would go house to house to take the Jewish people away.

The question is if this were to happen here and the goverment came to your house looking for said people, and they were at your house, what would you do?

For myself, I would send my wife away and then there would be some "neutralized" goverment employees on my lawn.

If our country ever got to that point, it wouldn't be a country worth living in.

Never could happen you say?
 
I do not recall a single person in this entire thread suggesting anyone be rounded up and put into camps. The crux of this thread is the fact that Islam calls for the death of all you infidels and no average, everyday Muslim speaks out against it. Given our current climate, it would be more realistic to suggest Christians would be rounded up and put into these camps in the name of "tolerance".
 
Cityboy said:
The crux of this thread is the fact that Islam calls for the death of all you infidels

Didn't take the time to read any of my long winded posts?

Correct me if I'm wrong, the "jist" of this whole topic is the Islam kills anyone who does not want to be a part of thier religion, they are killing our troops in Iraq, terrorism is running rampant and most of those terrorist are Muslims, so since no one (being Islamic) wants to denounce any of those actions listed, we should kill all Muslims.

If I missed it, what do you want to do with the Muslims?

Impression I get from you is that they (Muslims) are all Christian haters who if cannot convert us, will kill us.
 
I have stayed out of this thread for a while because for a long time I spent quite a bit of my time debating this issue on other forums and frankly since the Danish cartoon incident I have gotten a little sick of Muslims and their whining. B_Skurka posted some links way back near the beginning of this thread that I have read before - plus quite a few others with similar explanations - that go into detail of the type of teachings that are apparently in the Koran. I have never read the Koran myself - but I have read the endless discussions here and there about whether the English translations of the Koran are correct - and I know that true Muslims will say that you cannot truly understand the Koran until you read it in it's original Arabic.

But that in itself points out one of the flaws of the religion - how do you have a true mass market religion when the "true reading" of it's most important book means that people must learn an entire new language to "truly understand it". That just seems bogus to me.

On some of these other forums there were endless debates about who was worse - Christians or Muslims. Inevitably the Crusades come up and Muslims will point out that Christians behaved barbarically during the Crusades - however I have read a number of historical analysis that basically say that the Crusades were essentially a Christian reply to what amounted to never ending assaults on historically Christian places by Muslims. Remember - Islam once extended as far as Spain and reached the gates of Vienna before it was militarility defeated. Christianity never invaded Muslim lands as extensively as Muslims have invaded historically Christian lands - this is simple historical fact. Muslims have invaded Christian holy cities (Jerusalem) - while Christians have never invaded Muslim holy cities (Mecca and Medina).

Furthermore there are ample historical examples of Muhammed and his followers engaging in slavery, sex with slave girls, taking of multiple wives, by force if necessary, raiding and warfare, etc.

It seems to me that after spending quite a bit of time trying to find the truth of this matter that there are indeed "good" Muslims in the world and there are indeed "bad" Christians. The difference is that the "bad" Christians are the ones who do not follow the true teachings of their faith and Jesus Christ - whereas in comparison in Islam it is the "good" Muslims who are not truly following the teachings of their faith and it's founder. The Muslims we would like to call "bad" Muslims (terrorists, invaders, etc.) are the ones who are truly following the tenets of their religion.

I compare it to a lot of Catholics I know - they may or may not go to Church - but they also do things like use birth control, have sex before marriage, believe in evolution, etc. that are seriously frowned upon by the Church. They call themselves Catholics but do not really adhere to the faith the way the church sees it. There are also Muslims like this - they do not kill people, their wives do not wear their burkhas, the men do not take multiple wives, etc. Yet they still call themselves Muslims -even though a strict reading of the Koran would say they are not really adhering to the tenets of the faith.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, your saying if you follow the Koran, you're supposed to kill non-believers, and those who are "moderate" muslims don't really follow the Koran?

I'm no expert in Islam, can I ask what education or personal experience you have had with Muslims/Islam?

On top of that, if you've never read the Koran, how can you make those "general" statements?

Sort of like a Muslim making a statment about the bible by reading some passages, then making a "general" statement about all Christians becuase that said Muslim think he knows everything about Christianity.

Make it even more easier of a question. To all of those who believe that Islam is a "bad" religion, what personal contacts, personal association, or "first hand experience" do you have to make such a broad statement?
 
City Boy we can also join in and say that something is not right as well. Nothing wrong with that either. God knows I have done both on this forum!One thing for sure in EVERY culture I am sure we as a group can agree there are a bunch of sick bastards out there! The sad thing is that some actually belive there own BS about what God wants them to do.
 
Av8r3400 said:
The koran teaches that all people who are not muslim are infidels and must either convert to islam or die.

Let's see, what are we to do with these muslims who want to convert us or kill us?

Do you think the people we oppose in Iraq want to convert americans to Islam?

Ok, what do we do about the Muslims in America? Muslims in Canada? Heck. lets assume there are Muslims in Mexico (we can kill two birds with one stone that way). All right, not the right Muslims? What about the woman and children in Iraq who are Muslim? What do you do with them? Do you sort them out? How do you find who's supporting who? (probably depends if it's night or day).

Ok, I'm sick of all the Muslims. What do you want me, or you, or the Military to do?

Fact is I think people on this site are sick of our young men getting picked apart in a gurilla war and we are not completely sure how the "war" may turn out. We're so sick of everything that we want to lash out at the easiest target, and being that we are so much different from the "middle eastern muslim" in culture, religion and sometimes appearance, they (the muslims) make very easy targets of our disgust on the "whole situation" in Iraq.

Personally, if this "war" has lasted this long, either we will lose due to the lack of support of the Iraqi people, or we just can't control the influx of our enemy outside that country (which leads to other issues and questions).

The "freedon fighters" since Mr. Reagan days sure have fallen from grace.
 
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