Muslims

[Melensdad]

No, you are misreading what I wrote.

I do not believe that we need to tolerate anyone who wishes to kill us, but then again I don't believe the Muslims that I know want to kill me (or to kill you, or even to kill anyone else).

 

[Cityboy]

No, you are misreading what I wrote.

I do not believe that we need to tolerate anyone who wishes to kill us, but then again I don't believe the Muslims that I know want to kill me (or to kill you, or even to kill anyone else).

I did not misread what your wrote; I commented with my perception of what you wrote. This Muslim issue is different than any we have ever faced in our history. Have you asked these Muslims that you know how they feel about the convert or die theology of Islam? Have any of the Muslims that you know condemned Islamic terrorism and apologized to you what was done to your fellow Americans in the name of Islam on September 11, 2001?

 

[Melensdad]

Have you asked these Muslims that you know how they feel about the convert or die theology of Islam?

No. But for what it is worth, Christians believe in accepting Christ or facing eternal damnation.

Have any of the Muslims that you know condemned Islamic terrorism and apologized to you what was done to your fellow Americans in the name of Islam on September 11, 2001?

Well that is a multi part question. Yes, they very quickly condemned Islamic terrorism, and specifically condemned the 9/11 attacks. And as they are my 'fellow Americans' and citizens of this nation, I don't think they owe anyone an apology, but I'd suggest that they are owed the same apology from the radical Muslims who killed Americans of many races and religions that all other Americans are owed.

I don't think you can call them "Baptists". They are on the lunatic fringe and all Baptists I know have come out and strongly denounced that group of lunatics.

Playing devil's advocate here, and not specifically directed to Dargo but using this example, if we can't call them "Baptists" they why can we lump ALL of the world's Muslims into the "convert or die" category? And why can we lump ALL of the world's Muslims into the category of terrorists/murders?

 

[Cityboy]

No. But for what it is worth, Christians believe in accepting Christ or facing eternal damnation.

True, however, they do not preach killing you themselves to speed up your entry into that eternal damnation.

 

[Melensdad]

True, however, they do not preach killing you themselves to speed up your entry into that eternal damnation.

True, however, neither do ALL members of the Muslim faith.

It just strikes me that a really wide swath is being painted and really the hostility and anger probably needs to be directed at a very small % of people of the Muslim faith.

Bear in mind that much of the "Muslim" hatred directed at the west is not specifically religious. Much of it is also opposed to our policies around the world. Much of it is a side issue of the Jewish-Palistinian policy we follow. Much of it is simply anti-Western/anti-American imperialism. And much of it is cloaked in a misguided bastardization of their religion. I just believe that the issues are more complex than some would suggest and I believe there are many very good Muslims who should not be blamed.

 

[daedong]

Well said Bob

 

[DaveNay]

True, however, they do not preach killing you themselves to speed up your entry into that eternal damnation.

At least not for the last couple hundred years. Before that though.....

 

[Melensdad]

Dave, it is inconvenient for some people's arguments for you to bring up the CRUSADES at this point in time!

 

[DaveNay]

Dave, it is inconvenient for some people's arguments for you to bring up the CRUSADES at this point in time!

The Spanish Inquisition ended July 15, 1834.

 

[Cityboy]

At least not for the last couple hundred years. Before that though.....

True, but some religions do manage to evolve into the present. Others remain in the dark ages.

 

[Cityboy]

Dave, it is inconvenient for some people's arguments for you to bring up the CRUSADES at this point in time!

And whose argument would that be, Bob, and what relevance does your comment have to this discussion?

 

[Melensdad]

Ah but much of the Spanish Inquisition was also Christian against Christian. The Crusades were Christians against everyone else, and a large proportion of those battles were directed against Muslims. The Knights Templar were founded specifically to protect Christian pilgrims who wanted to visit the Holyland. Constantinople was the eastern Christian capital and was built on captured Muslim land.

There are plenty of reasons for hard feelings between the religions.

 

[dzalphakilo]

I don't think you can call them "Baptists". They are on the lunatic fringe and all Baptists I know have come out and strongly denounced that group of lunatics.

My point was that some people who are not familiar with America and reads any of those articles via newpaper or internet could associate ALL baptists with that group.

 

[DaveNay]

Ah but much of the Spanish Inquisition was also Christian against Christian.

Actually, the Inquisition(s) were Roman Catholic against anyone and everyone who was perceved as a heretic. There were pretty loose guidelines as who fit the definition of heretic.

 

[Cityboy]

True, however, neither do ALL members of the Muslim faith.

It just strikes me that a really wide swath is being painted and really the hostility and anger probably needs to be directed at a very small % of people of the Muslim faith.

Bear in mind that much of the "Muslim" hatred directed at the west is not specifically religious. Much of it is also opposed to our policies around the world. Much of it is a side issue of the Jewish-Palistinian policy we follow. Much of it is simply anti-Western/anti-American imperialism. And much of it is cloaked in a misguided bastardization of their religion. I just believe that the issues are more complex than some would suggest and I believe there are many very good Muslims who should not be blamed.

Believe what you wish, but the fact remains that Muslims are involved in probably 99% of the hostilities of the world; even you cannot argue otherwise as you play the devils advocate. Why exactly are these peace loving Muslims involved in all this killing?

What exactly is this "misguided bastardization of their religion"? Does the Koran not say what it says? Does the Koran not say that infidels should be murdered? How complex can it be? A very small percentage may be engaged in the actual murders around the globe, but a very large percentage (read majority) are silently condoning it. You are defending a religion that condones murder.

 

[dzalphakilo]

You're joking, right? We don't even require immigrants to speak our language here, much less expect them to speak English over there. Who are these people you are talking about? I'd like to meet one of them.

When is the last time you took a trip over overseas, particularly to Europe?

Americans when spending thier dollars overseas thinks that the culture should cater to them. Seen it with my own eyes, and have heard more than a couple of times overseas some fat but American stickiing out like a sore thumb raising his voice and talking very slow as if this will help someone who doesn't speak english (particulalry Germany).

 

[Melensdad]

Dave, you are technically correct, but as Roman Catholics are Christians, I was simply referring to them using the term Christian because that is what was used throughout this thread. The Crusades were also a Catholic thing. I'm also pretty sure that some of the Orthodox Catholics participated in both the Inquisitions and the Crusades.

There was plenty of Christian 'convert or die' attitude that traveled up north into Norway and the other Scandinavian countries. So it is not just limited to a little foray into the middle east. In fact one of the Norwegian kings did in fact institute a policy of convert or die! And that was only a few hundred years ago.

When is the last time you took a trip over overseas, particularly to Europe?

Americans when spending thier dollars overseas thinks that the culture should cater to them. Seen it with my own eyes, and have heard more than a couple of times overseas some fat but American stickiing out like a sore thumb raising his voice and talking very slow as if this will help someone who doesn't speak english (particulalry Germany).

I totally agree with you on this point! And not just Americans in Europe. There is a reason we are often called "ugly Americans!" We are an arrogant lot.

 

[dzalphakilo]

You are defending a religion that condones murder.

And how many murders have Christians committed "in the name of God?".

Isn't it amazing how many people have been killed for god, no matter what religion you practice.

 

[Cityboy]

When is the last time you took a trip over overseas, particularly to Europe?

After my last tour of duty overseas in the mid 80's, I am content to remain here. I spent enough time overseas to learn how the natives do their thing in their native lands and even learned to speak a little native when I could. You will find dumbass tourists everywhere you go; but a stupid tourist is one thing; a murderous religion is another.

 

[Cityboy]

And how many murders have Christians committed "in the name of God?".

Isn't it amazing how many people have been killed for god, no matter what religion you practice.

Again, some religions manage to evolve; others (Islam) remain in the dark ages fighting the Crusades. Religion in general makes little sense to me; Islam makes no sense at all.

 

[dzalphakilo]

You will find dumbass tourists everywhere.

I've found more so with Americans overseas not trying "to fit in".

 

[DaveNay]

What exactly is this "misguided bastardization of their religion"? Does the Koran not say what it says? Does the Koran not say that infidels should be murdered? How complex can it be? A very small percentage may be engaged in the actual murders around the globe, but a very large percentage (read majority) are silently condoning it. You are defending a religion that condones murder.

Go get your bible....I'll wait.





Got it?

Turn to Deuteronomy 21:18

Read along now....

If you have a "stubborn and rebellious son," then you and the other men in your neighborhood "shall stone him with stones that he die."

Does the bible not say what the bible says? Have you stoned your son to death? Why didn't your father stone you to death? Ahhh...perhaps it is because your religion "evolved into the present" and didn't "remain in the dark ages"?

Taking any religious text as a literal translation is a very dangerous and slippery slope.

 

[Cityboy]

And not just Americans in Europe. There is a reason we are often called "ugly Americans!" We are an arrogant lot.

Speak for yourself. It is amazing how some people are so quick to critcize their own country; it seems somehow fashionable these days, along with the PC crowd and the blame-America-first folks.

 

[Cityboy]

Go get your bible....I'll wait.





Got it?

Turn to Deuteronomy 21:18

Read along now....



Does the bible not say what the bible says? Have you stoned your son to death? Why didn't your father stone you to death? Ahhh...perhaps it is because your religion "evolved into the present" and didn't "remain in the dark ages"?

Taking any religious text as a literal translation is a very dangerous and slippery slope.

What religion am I Dave?

I don't have a bible to get out, Dave, but I do know that the old testament law was replaced by the new testament. The Koran does not have a new testament, and Islam still calls for the death of the infidel to this day.

I think pretty much any religion is a method of controlling large groups of people. Some religion is simply evil. Islam is one of them.

 

[dzalphakilo]

a murderous religion is another.

What about Eric Rudolph? What about Christains who believe they are doing gods work for the "greater good" even here in America.

I think you could find numerous Christians who kill in the name of God. Please show me in the new testament where it tells you that God would like for you to kill people.

Calling Islam a muderous religion is ridiculous. Yes, there are muslim extremeist who use religion as a tool, as a motivator, and perhaps some actually do beleive what they are saying.

I guess what it comes down to is that you need to have friends who are Muslim and practice Islam to have a better understanding of how they percieve things.

Do you consider yourself a whore chasing, drunk satan worshiping pig who would rape and pillage a muslim community and have sex with your own daughter? I sincerely don't think so, but perhaps there are people in Iraq who do think that about you and other americans because that is what they are told, and for better or worse, they start to believe it believe it because they don't know anything about us (Americans and how we live).

 

[dzalphakilo]

What religion am I Dave?

I don't have a bible to get out, Dave, but I do know that the old testament law was replaced by the new testament. The Koran does not have a new testament, and Islam still calls for the death of the infidel to this day.

I think pretty much any religion is a method of controlling large groups of people. Some religion is simply evil. Islam is one of them.

What I find amazing is that you don't have a Bible, but your quoting the Koran.

Do you have the Koran in you house?

 

[dzalphakilo]

Again, some religions manage to evolve; others (Islam) remain in the dark ages fighting the Crusades. Religion in general makes little sense to me; Islam makes no sense at all.

Go back to something I learned a long time ago. People are people no matter where you are at. You have smart, dumb, good, bad, no matter where you are.

I find it hard to believe that Christians "evolved" and other religions didn't.

Remember McCarthy (sp?) in the 50's (?)? Ah, those were the good old days for America. Pretty sure some of the people were Christians. Yep, we sure have evolved.

By the way, did I mention that I got a great deal on some fine U.S made ammo in BULK? life is good

Any of those Muslims come here, I be ready!!

 

[Cityboy]

What about Eric Rudolph? What about Christains who believe they are doing gods work for the "greater good" even here in America.

There are serial killers who believe/claim to be doing Gods work. Christianity does not condone this; Islam, however, does.

I think you could find numerous Christians who kill in the name of God. Please show me in the new testament where it tells you that God would like for you to kill people.

As far as I am aware, Christ never commanded Christians to kill anyone. What is the point of continuing these examples where they have no relevance?

Calling Islam a muderous religion is ridiculous. Yes, there are muslim extremeist who use religion as a tool, as a motivator, and perhaps some actually do beleive what they are saying.

Not really. As I have repeatedly stated, where are all the peacful Islamic clerics coming forward into the public light, en mass, to condemn Islamic terrorism? Well, where are they?

I guess what it comes down to is that you need to have friends who are Muslim and practice Islam to have a better understanding of how they percieve things.

No, I don't. As I have stated before, I personally knew men killed by these fanatics and no Muslim leaders have come forth to speak out against Islamic atrocities. I do not need to practice any religion to know right from wrong.

Do you consider yourself a whore chasing, drunk satan worshiping pig who would rape and pillage a muslim community and have sex with your own daughter? I sincerely don't think so, but perhaps there are people in Iraq who do think that about you and other americans because that is what they are told, and for better or worse, they start to believe it believe it because they don't know anything about us (Americans and how we live).

I know what I know about Islam from firsthand experience. I am not parroting something someone else told me. Perhaps these Islamic clerics should stop telling their followers all this garbage; have you ever thought of it that way?

 

[Cityboy]

Do you have the Koran in you house?

Do you?

 

[Melensdad]

Speak for yourself. It is amazing how some people are so quick to critcize their own country; it seems somehow fashionable these days, along with the PC crowd and the blame-America-first folks.

Hmmm. I didn't criticize our country. Nor do I belong in the PC crowd or the blame-American first group. It is interesting to note that you imply I do when I simply make observations and state them. I think you are reading too much into what is written.

Regarding lumping all the Muslims into one group that is easy to categorize (murders & condoners of murder) it is also interesting to hear your take on how Christians 'evolved' when so many Christians do not believe in evolution (at least those who take the literal word of the Bible as absolute).