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Thoughts on healthcare bill

SShepherd

New member
Frank, many folk take risks, many folks work there arse off, many folks are smarter than Bill Gates. Bill Gates and others like him don't necessarily work any harder, make wiser decisions, or have a punt any more than lots of the population, Bill Gates was a lucky man, fact, just happen to be in the right place at the right time. Now no problem with that but we can't all do it, it does not stack up mathematically. There is only so much wealth to go round, we can't all make millions or billions, so the few that do have a moral obligation to society to give some back to those that made it possible to acquire their wealth, and tax is an efficient and fair way of doing this.

Americans generally more than any others seem to moan about sharing their wealth. seems to me the more you get the meaner you seem to get.


ya...riiiiight.....

maybe the problem is, we're giving too much of our money in foreign aid, to little backwards shitpuddle countries who don't care-- insted of helping OUR own in need first. I'm sure the roughly 25billion we give to other countries would go along way to helpin our own poor.
 

EastTexFrank

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
so the few that do have a moral obligation to society to give some back to those that made it possible to acquire their wealth, and tax is an efficient and fair way of doing this.

Americans generally more than any others seem to moan about sharing their wealth. seems to me the more you get the meaner you seem to get.

And that is how it works Vin. What I objected to was the statement that, "How about the 1% of the population that has 99% of the money, that is just my opinion since they made it on the backs of the rest of us", implying that they somehow they totally exploited the other 99% to gain their wealth and that was a good enough reason to tax them back into poverty. The top 10% of earners in this country account for 90% of the taxes paid so they are already being differentially "punished" for being wealthy.


As for moaning about sharing their wealth and getting meaner, far from it. On a per capita basis, Americans are still among the most generous people in the world. See below.

"Because Giving Is An Integral Part of America's Economic Fabric
Consider this: In 2008, amidst the worst economy since the Great Depression, charitable giving in the United States exceeded $300 billion, according to Giving USA 2009. "The fact that charitable giving was still more than 2 percent of GDP in 2008 is a bright spot in an otherwise negative climate for donations," said Nancy L. Raybin, chair of the Giving Institute. What's more, on a per capita basis Americans give to causes and charities 3.5 times as much as the French, 7 times as much as Germans, and 14 times as much as Italians, according to Arthur C. Brooks."

Sometimes people make the most outlandish, false statements without any justification or verification. That's what I object to.
 

daedong

New member
Bullshit folks, do yourselves a favor and take a reality check.





The World’s Most Generous Misers
Tsunami reporting misrepresented U.S. giving

By Ben Somberg

In March 1997, a joint poll by the Washington Post, Harvard University and the Kaiser Family Foundation asked Americans which area of federal expenditure they thought was the largest. Was it Social Security (which actually constituted about a quarter of the budget)? Medicare? Military spending? Sixty-four percent of respondents said it was foreign aid—when in reality foreign aid made up only about 1 percent of total outlays (Washington Post, 3/29/97).

Today, Americans think about 20 percent of the federal budget goes toward foreign aid. When told the actual figure for U.S. foreign aid giving (about 1.6 percent of the discretionary budget), most respondents said they did not believe the number was the full amount (Program on International Policy Attitudes, 3/7/05).

It’s no wonder that most Americans think they live in an extremely generous nation: Media reports often quote government officials pointing out that their country is the largest overall aid donor, and the biggest donor of humanitarian aid. But what reporters too often fail to explain is how big the U.S. economy is—more than twice the size of Japan’s, the second largest, and about as big as economies number 3–10 combined. Considered as a portion of the nation’s economy, or of its federal expenditures, the U.S. is actually among the smallest donors of international aid among the world’s developed countries.

The Development Assistance Committee of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development compiles statistics on how much Official Development Assistance the world’s 22 wealthiest countries give each year. The organization’s numbers show that as a portion of Gross National Income (roughly equivalent to GDP), the U.S. now ranks second-to-last in giving, at 0.16 percent. (In 2004, Italy dropped into last place below the U.S.)

The U.S. also gives much less than what the industrialized countries pledged to give at the 1992 Rio Conference, which was 0.7 percent of their GDP. U.S. development aid, at 0.16 percent of GDP, represents less than one-quarter of this promise.

While foreign aid giving is hardly the only issue, domestic or international, on which Americans hold distinctly incorrect beliefs—misperceptions around the circumstances of the Iraq War are another good recent example—the disparity between the public’s perception and the truth in this case is abnormally large. A look at media coverage of U.S. foreign aid giving in the days after the Indian Ocean tsunami disaster of December 26, 2004 helps reveal why Americans might think they’re more generous than they are.

“Known for generosity”

Coverage of the Bush administration’s pledges of aid to Asian nations battered by the tsunami failed to give context to the amounts mentioned, painting the U.S. in a charitable light. The day after the tsunami, the U.S. pledged $15 million in aid; a day later, the total was $35 million. After widespread criticism, the administration upped its pledge three days later to $350 million. The media almost always compared these numbers to the total aid pledges of other countries, not looking at how they ranked as a fraction of the nations’ economies. The $350 million pledge, therefore, was the “largest contribution” at the time (CNN.com, 1/1/05).

The administration’s line regarding aid giving was exemplified by Colin Powell’s words in the days after the tsunami (ABC’s Nightline, 12/30/04): “We are the most generous nation on the face of the Earth. Now, if you measure it as a percentage of GDP, you can make the case that we’re not as high as others. But if you measure it as actual money going out the door to help people, we are the most generous nation on the face of the Earth.”

Andrew Natsios, head of the U.S. Agency for International Development, similarly said that “we’ve never accepted the notion” that aid comparisons by national wealth are relevant (Fox News Channel, 12/29/04):

Our GNP dwarves all other countries. Our economy grows much faster. Japan’s economy has basically been not growing much over the last decade. And the Europeans have not grown that much, certainly in comparison to the United States. So what some people have done is to use the one indicator that makes us look bad to argue this. And I have to say it is ridiculous.


Fox host Chris Wallace at the end of his interview thanked Natsios for “giving us a perspective, a little bit of a reality check on all of this.”

Establishing foreign aid giving standards based on the size of a nation’s economy is no newfangled idea, though; it was in 1970, after all, that the U.N. General Assembly first supported the standard of developed nations giving 0.7 percent of their GDP towards non-military foreign aid (a percentage that the United States has never come close to reaching). Generosity that isn’t measured based on ability to give would inevitably paint smaller countries as stingy—unless they gave an astronomical percentage of their incomes.

NPR correspondent (and Fox in-house “liberal”) Juan Williams, appearing just minutes after Natsios (12/29/04), also disputed criticisms that U.S. humanitarian efforts are only a tiny portion of GDP: “That notion, I think, is misplaced, because I think our Gross Domestic Product is just so much larger and continues to grow.” In other words, it somehow isn’t fair to expect the U.S. to contribute the same percentage as other countries—because the U.S. is so much wealthier.

“Private giving is tremendous”

Williams continued with another standard defense of American generosity: “And so it doesn’t properly represent the degree of largess and philanthropy that takes place. Either if you consider just government, or if you consider, in addition, an even larger sector, the private sector. Private giving is tremendous in this country.”

American private giving during the tsunami crisis was significant, indeed; one month after the tsunami, it was over $400 million, outpacing the U.S. government pledge of $350 million. But just as with government donations, the private giving of Americans was smaller in proportional terms than that of most Western European and Scandinavian countries. That fact didn’t slow down NBC Nightly News anchor Brian Williams (1/7/05), who said that Americans were “proving all over again why they are known worldwide for their generosity.” Williams made no comment about the generosity of, say, the British or Germans, each of whom sent far more money, per capita, in both private and government donations.

When George W. Bush spoke of individual donations and the “good heart of the American people,” ABC’s Peter Jennings (1/3/05) agreed that Bush was “saying what almost all Americans will surely believe, that Americans are innately generous at times of crisis.” Whether or not such beliefs reflect reality was not addressed.

While exact figures are impossible to come by, the highest estimates from recent years put individual U.S. donations to overseas aid at 0.16 percent of national income, according to the Center for Global Development’s Steven Radelet. (More conservative estimates suggest that this number may actually be as low as 0.03 percent; an OECD estimate put the number at 0.06 percent.) Add the optimistic 0.16 percent estimate to the 0.16 percent of national income in government donations and you reach a combined 0.32 percent of national income—which is still less than the governmental aid alone of roughly half of the world’s wealthiest nations.

When it came to comparing the tsunami relief to aid in other humanitarian disasters, ABC’s George Stephanopoulos (1/2/05) briefly stood out from the field. After Kofi Annan noted in an interview that international donations in just one week had eclipsed those for all other humanitarian appeals in 2004, Stephanopoulos replied, “That would suggest that the world had not done enough for these other disasters.”

“We call them the orphaned disasters,” Annan replied. “They are not in the headlines. They are not on TV. And they are ignored and overlooked, whether it’s northern Uganda or elsewhere. You take the Congo, eastern Congo, thousands of people die every month.” With that said, Stephanopoulos returned to talk of the tsunami.

Contrasts in print

Perhaps the best discussion of tsunami aid was provided by the Boston Globe’s Charles Sennott (12/31/04), who wrote in his second sentence that “both on a per capita basis and as a percentage of the nation’s wealth, America’s emergency relief in Asia and development aid to poor countries actually ranks at the bottom of the list of developed nations, some of the world’s top economists and analysts of international development aid said yesterday.”

The Globe’s honest analysis helped highlight the lack of context common in tsunami coverage elsewhere in the print media. A USA Today report on American giving (1/7/05) noted that “per capita, citizens in some other countries are giving more than Americans are”—but not until the last paragraph of the article. Meanwhile the paper editorialized (1/4/05) that Bush’s pledge of $350 million—a little more than a dollar per citizen—“should silence critics who said the world’s wealthiest nation was being stingy.”

The Washington Post (1/2/05) was similarly impressed in its news pages with the $350 million pledge, concluding that “the president has assumed a leadership role in the global relief, rescue and rebuilding effort and quieted his critics.” The Post had nothing to say about the “leadership role” of the leaders of European nations that were giving sums that represented far larger portions of their nations’ economies.

In the New York Times, the administration’s logic sometimes went unchallenged as well. “We are by far the largest donor’’ of disaster relief, the paper quoted Natsios (12/30/04). “No one even comes close to us.’’ His statement was technically true at the time, but the article provided no information about how this ranked the U.S. giving as a portion of GDP.

When the Bush administration increased its aid pledge to $350 million, the Times (1/1/05) wrote: “With the newly announced commitment, the United States moves from the middle of the pack of countries that have announced aid to the region to the top. The $350 million is more than three times the amount committed by Britain.” The article didn’t mention that the U.S. has five times Britain’s population and six times its GDP.

On the op-ed page, the Times (1/4/05) gave space to Carol Adelman of the Hudson Institute to defend American aid giving. She claimed that looking only at public giving made Europeans “appear generous”: “Norway ranks first in allocating 0.92 percent of its gross national income to foreign aid. But Norway’s $2 billion of yearly aid is less than what American companies alone give.”

Given that Norway’s economy is less than 2 percent that of the U.S., it’s not surprising that its total foreign aid budget is not large in absolute terms. But it’s not true that Americans are privately more generous than Norwegians: Norway’s per capita private aid contributions are almost five times the U.S.’s, according to the Center for Global Development (12/29/04).

The Times’ editorial page (12/30/04) did give a context to U.S. aid giving, both for the tsunami disaster and for development in general, leading the page to call the U.S. “stingy.” Observing the difference between how Americans view their aid-giving and the reality, it said that “Bush administration officials help create that perception gap.” Selective reporting contributes as well.

SIDEBAR:
Aid Omissions

Coverage of foreign aid is as notable for what it doesn't say as for what is does. Areas the media usually don't examine include:

  • Debt Payments. Many aid recipients in the developing world are burdened by debt payments to the wealthy nations and institutions, often for loans taken out decades earlier by dictatorial regimes that squandered the money. While the developing world receives about $80 billion in aid each year, it pays the developed world about $200 billion; it is still uncertain how much of that will be relieved.
  • Pledges are just pledges. George W. Bush's Millennium Challenge Account—announced in March 2002 with great fanfare—hasn't disbursed a dollar yet. After the 2003 Iran earthquake, many nations only delivered a fraction of the aid they had initially pledged. The media should treat pledges as what they are: promises that may or may not be kept.
  • Adjusting for inflation. When the New York Times and Washington Post reported on George W. Bush's announcement of the Millennium Challenge Account (3/15/02), the articles said the pledge represented a 14 percent increase in U.S. aid flows, but with inflation factored in, it was only a 7 percent increase (Economic Reporting Review, 3/18/02).
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2676
 

SShepherd

New member
lmao..see, thats exactly how a "have not" looks at the "people who have"

The total GDP for indonesia in 2003 was 208million +/-

in 2003, the GDP of the US was 10,987billion...

so..what, The US was supposed to support the ENTIRE cost of aid for them? You can sit around and bitch about GDP and % given all day, and guess what...WE STILL DID MORE

oh yes, cry about the 350million..booo hooo " it's only a tiny fraction of your GDP you stingy americans"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4145259.stm

United States
$350m in government donations, although this is expected to rise to $650m. Washington also sent military assistance involving 12,600 personnel, 21 ships, 14 cargo planes and more than 90 helicopters. Around $200 million of private donations, with $120m donated to the US branches of the Red Cross, Oxfam and Save the Children, and to Catholic Relief Services.


oh, and hey, you might not want to throw stones if you live in a glass house.

http://tsunami.aseansec.org/index.php?OP=NEWS&NEWS=1111378470


The tsunami victims may not actually get much direct assistance from this “aid” package. A March 3 parliamentary research paper by Dr Ravi Tomar, from DFAT, coolly admits that, “While money will be spent on rehabilitation and reconstruction projects in Aceh, it seems likely that a substantial amount of the money will be spent on projects outside the tsunami-affected areas, although nonetheless in deserving parts of Indonesia”.

According to Tomar, major Australian companies expected to be involved in the bidding process include Boral, BlueScope Steel, OneSteel, Leighton Holdings, Thiess and Linfox, as well as numerous medium-sized and smaller firms.

Two of these companies have already scored big contracts from non-government aid agencies. According to a report in the March 16 Australian, three aid organisations, including World Vision, have contracted BlueScope Steel to supply 1500 steel buildings and 60 tonnes of steel roofs. The Red Cross has commissioned Thiess Contractors to construct an office building in Banda Aceh at a cost of between $500,000 and $1 million.

The government's “tsunami aid” package is really about corporate welfare and strategic interests, Tim O'Connor of AidWatch told Green Left Weekly. “AusAID staff have stated off the record that up to 90% of Australian aid money boomerangs back to Australia.”

Officially, at least 40% of Australian overseas aid is “tied”, O'Connor explained. That is, the money has to be spent on certain products and services provided by certain companies.

“The World Bank estimates that tied aid is 20-25% more costly than untied aid. AidWatch says aid should not be in the form of loans. Even [foreign minister Alexander] Downer's 1997 review into Australian aid found that loans were an ineffective and inefficient way of giving aid.”
 

fogtender

Now a Published Author
Site Supporter
No joec, I dont think it is the water, I think it is the cool aid. If you dont agree completely with the wing nuts you must be stupid, a moron or soon there will be some other personal form of attack. Just remember, never, ever present any real facts or evidence, seems to make them even crazier.

So you feel we should nuke the entire Health Care system to cover a few that can't get health care verses fixing the glitches that keeps them out?

There are people that choose not to buy insurance, that is their problem, not mine. There are millions of illegals here that have full medical in their home country of Mexico that don't need our "free care" that they get now and will get even more if this bill passes.

Not wingnuts that are marching off the cliff, it is those that feel they are owed everything that they didn't earn.
 

joec

New member
GOLD Site Supporter
So you feel we should nuke the entire Health Care system to cover a few that can't get health care verses fixing the glitches that keeps them out?

There are people that choose not to buy insurance, that is their problem, not mine. There are millions of illegals here that have full medical in their home country of Mexico that don't need our "free care" that they get now and will get even more if this bill passes.

Not wingnuts that are marching off the cliff, it is those that feel they are owed everything that they didn't earn.

Here is a facts for you. First illegals here can go to any hospital in this nation and they can't even ask if they are here legally or not. Even if the suspect they are illegals they can't turn them in. Now with that said they get treated period so you are paying for them now regardless, either in your tax dollars to support the hospital or through you insurance. That isn't going to change so forget about it.

Now as for a health care plan. Now illegal can buy into it as is stands now period. You actually have to be a US citizen to qualify. So put this to rest with the death panels and rationed health care.

Also I hardly qualify as someone wanting something for nothing as most of the other 47 million Americans without health care are doing. Oh and I really hope the current system works for you but I am afraid it is a matter of time before most of you find out the truth about what you have paid for, when you really need it.
 

Big Dog

Large Member
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Why Doctors Are Abandoning Medicare


Nelson Asks Senate to Withdraw Nebraska Medicaid Deal


Drug Industry Threatening to End Support for Obama's Health Bill


Unions will dodge O's health tax



[FONT=Verdana,Sans-serif]Health talks in overdrive with Obama pushing[/FONT]

Democrats close in on healthcare agreement
 

joec

New member
GOLD Site Supporter
So you feel we should nuke the entire Health Care system to cover a few that can't get health care verses fixing the glitches that keeps them out?

There are people that choose not to buy insurance, that is their problem, not mine. There are millions of illegals here that have full medical in their home country of Mexico that don't need our "free care" that they get now and will get even more if this bill passes.

Not wingnuts that are marching off the cliff, it is those that feel they are owed everything that they didn't earn.

To add to what I said in the previous post there are other reasons people don't have health care beside being lazy, illegals, cheap or what ever.

Now I want to you think about this really hard. Unemployment is around 10 % officially though higher unofficially. So that is 10% of the population that can't find a job. Now Cobra is a great idea with one major problem, the cost to someone who is unemployed. Paying $800 a month when one brings a little more in unemployment benefits of say a $1000 a month, could be at best difficult to impossible if one is supporting a family. Even a single person would have a hard time with those numbers.

Now once you take a temporary job or part time job you loose your unemployment and these jobs don't come usually with insurance benefit at all. Now you take a job that pays a living wage but it is a small company and they don't offer insurance because they can't afford it. Now you try to buy your own only to find out you don't make enough a month to pay a single premium. This is also part of the 47 million and climbing number of uninsured. Oh yes and last but not least your company has laid off x number of employees due to the downturn in our economy but has kept you except they have dropped your insurance or go bankrupt. So you see there are many ligament reasons a person won't have insurance. That should be easy for anyone to understand.
 

Big Dog

Large Member
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
No joec, I dont think it is the water, I think it is the cool aid. If you dont agree completely with the wing nuts you must be stupid, a moron or soon there will be some other personal form of attack. Just remember, never, ever present any real facts or evidence, seems to make them even crazier.

Damn Mak sorts fits the left too don't you think? Hell they patented it!
 

jpr62902

Jeanclaude Spam Banhammer
SUPER Site Supporter
Alernatively, an employed person could save some $$ and set it aside. You know, in case of financial emergency? If you're not making enough to do that, how about cutting back on the expenses? Cable tv, cell phones, expensive food items, car payments beyond what one can truly afford, et al., are all bills we can trim if our income doesn't allow us to set money aside for financially lean times.

This is not a difficult concept to grasp, but so many folks neglect to mention it.
 

mak2

Active member
Are you talking about so you can buy insurance or pay for your own medical expenses?

Alernatively, an employed person could save some $$ and set it aside. You know, in case of financial emergency? If you're not making enough to do that, how about cutting back on the expenses? Cable tv, cell phones, expensive food items, car payments beyond what one can truly afford, et al., are all bills we can trim if our income doesn't allow us to set money aside for financially lean times.

This is not a difficult concept to grasp, but so many folks neglect to mention it.
 

Keltin

New member
Alernatively, an employed person could save some $$ and set it aside. You know, in case of financial emergency? If you're not making enough to do that, how about cutting back on the expenses? Cable tv, cell phones, expensive food items, car payments beyond what one can truly afford, et al., are all bills we can trim if our income doesn't allow us to set money aside for financially lean times.

This is not a difficult concept to grasp, but so many folks neglect to mention it.

So, I cut my cable, my phone, and eat only ramen noodles and boiled eggs.

Ok, I save 250 to 300 per month. After 6 months, I have 1,800 saved and develop a kidney stone from stress related and dietary disorders. It costs 14,000 at the hospital to take care of it, plus another 2,000 in meds. Hmmm…..I save 1,800 and added tons of stress to my life only to come up short on paying that 16,000 bill.

Good math.
 

joec

New member
GOLD Site Supporter
Damn Mak sorts fits the left too don't you think? Hell they patented it!

They did, I didn't know that! I always though that type of politics started with a republicans when Bush Sr. got defeated. It was the first time I had ever seen a party (Republicans) go after a sitting president even before he was swore in for everything from accusations of murder, thief etc. This went on till Clinton actually left office as one of the most popular presidents we have had in modern time. The man couldn't fart with out the Republican congress and special prosecutors want to get him for it. I think the Republicans wrote the book on this once they teamed up with the religious right. Just my opinion guys and remembering history as I saw it at the time.
 

mak2

Active member
So, I cut my cable, my phone, and eat only ramen noodles and boiled eggs.

Ok, I save 250 to 300 per month. After 6 months, I have 1,800 saved and develop a kidney stone from stress related and dietary disorders. It costs 14,000 at the hospital to take care of it, plus another 2,000 in meds. Hmmm…..I save 1,800 and added tons of stress to my life only to come up short on paying that 16,000 bill.

Good math.

No no no, I am sure the surgeon only gets $141.00 or some stupid thing like that. So yea, cut out you cable, if we got the gooberment into healthcare it would really screw things up. Death panels, rationing, free health care, ooo the horror.:hammer:
 

Keltin

New member
No no no, I am sure the surgeon only gets $141.00 or some stupid thing like that. So yea, cut out you cable, if we got the gooberment into healthcare it would really screw things up. Death panels, rationing, free health care, ooo the horror.:hammer:

I'd like to see a surgeon that gets paid 141.00. Wait.....here is one:

http://www.boingboing.net/2007/04/26/garage-dentist-buste.html

My last Hospital bill showed $80 for two tylenols.....TYLENOL! WTF? That was a damn special plastic cup they put it in! :hammer:

Then, $675 a night for the room. Cripe, for that I can get the Presedential Suite at a 5 star hotel.......instead of Bingo on TV, jello for dinner, and sharing a room with a snoring "guest" that farts 24-7!

I'd rather go back to the day of mid-wives and house calls.
 

jpr62902

Jeanclaude Spam Banhammer
SUPER Site Supporter
So, I cut my cable, my phone, and eat only ramen noodles and boiled eggs.

Ok, I save 250 to 300 per month. After 6 months, I have 1,800 saved and develop a kidney stone from stress related and dietary disorders. It costs 14,000 at the hospital to take care of it, plus another 2,000 in meds. Hmmm…..I save 1,800 and added tons of stress to my life only to come up short on paying that 16,000 bill.

Good math.

Well, first, your hypothetical only assumes 6 months of savings. But we'll work with that. The typical option is COBRA coverage, but admittedly that can be pretty expensive. Alternatively, one could take out a major medical policy and only have a fraction of the debt you fear.

Think outside the box, Kelvin.

And btw, why does the example have to be limited to just 6 months of savings? And does my original position demand that one have no phone and be confined to Ramen noodles and boiled eggs? Nope. Unless your income is close to poverty level -- at which point you qualify for Medicaid anyway. Let's not use hyperbole to buttress a point of view.
 

joec

New member
GOLD Site Supporter
Damn Mak sorts fits the left too don't you think? Hell they patented it!

The left patented this type of destruction politics. Rethink that really Dog.

Prior to Bush Sr. both sides of the isles where pretty laid back in their dealings in recent history. Once Clinton defeated Bush it started for real. Even before he was sworn in the reports started coming out about his indiscretions. Once in office the accusations started for real from the republicans, every thing from murder, rape, theft etc. The republicans even attacked his wife before she was involved in anything. This was followed by a special prosecutor, Ken Starr who investigated Clinton for every crime under the sun and finally came up with a case of lying under oath to cover up getting a head job from an of age intern. Go figure the only Jewish girl on the planet that can't get out a stain.

Now if you want to know when this started that is it. I have a long political history people and though young even remember Eisenhower's 8 years in office.
 

mak2

Active member
I was refering to the $1400 BKA. But your experience is very typical. My wife has spent well over a million dollars over the last year in hospital bills. I am a federal employee with outstanding insurance. It will still probably cause me to file bankruptcy in 2011. But there is absolutely no problem with todays system.
I'd like to see a surgeon that gets paid 141.00. Wait.....here is one:

http://www.boingboing.net/2007/04/26/garage-dentist-buste.html

My last Hospital bill showed $80 for two tylenols.....TYLENOL! WTF? That was a damn special plastic cup they put it in! :hammer:

Then, $675 a night for the room. Cripe, for that I can get the Presedential Suite at a 5 star hotel.......instead of Bingo on TV, jello for dinner, and sharing a room with a snoring "guest" that farts 24-7!

I'd rather go back to the day of mid-wives and house calls.
 

joec

New member
GOLD Site Supporter
I'd like to see a surgeon that gets paid 141.00. Wait.....here is one:

http://www.boingboing.net/2007/04/26/garage-dentist-buste.html

My last Hospital bill showed $80 for two tylenols.....TYLENOL! WTF? That was a damn special plastic cup they put it in! :hammer:

Then, $675 a night for the room. Cripe, for that I can get the Presedential Suite at a 5 star hotel.......instead of Bingo on TV, jello for dinner, and sharing a room with a snoring "guest" that farts 24-7!

I'd rather go back to the day of mid-wives and house calls.

My son, who I paid to put through collage to become a doctor, came in on his day off to put some stitches in my arm. Now he was on his own time at the hospital he worked using his personal supplies and put in all the stitches. All we used was a chair and table for all of 10 minutes. The hospital sent me a bill for $825. Now they didn't even give me a shot never mind a band aid. Every thing used my son had in his personal bag and the only reason he had me come to the hospital is not knowing how bad I was cut with a chance of infection. He did however pick up $700 of the tab and I paid for the what he used on me, which was fair.
 

Keltin

New member
Well, first, your hypothetical only assumes 6 months of savings. But we'll work with that. The typical option is COBRA coverage, but admittedly that can be pretty expensive. Alternatively, one could take out a major medical policy and only have a fraction of the debt you fear.

Think outside the box, Kelvin.

And btw, why does the example have to be limited to just 6 months of savings? And does my original position demand that one have no phone and be confined to Ramen noodles and boiled eggs? Nope. Unless your income is close to poverty level -- at which point you qualify for Medicaid anyway. Let's not use hyperbole to buttress a point of view.

Point being, the average medical expense is 500% above ANYONE’S income.

Saying to suck it up and save is ridiculous.

When a Hospital charges 80 dollars for Tylenol that I can buy for 2 bucks, or 625 for a room…..come on. No matter your “savings plan”, you’re getting your ass whipped by the inflated costs.

The “change” needs to start with the health care system, the doctors in their BMWs, and the Hospitals with their 700 dollar rooms. From there, we can work on a plan to pay them.

COBRA, for me anyway, only works if you HAD a job that paid medical and you want to extend it. Not sure what that has to do with this discussion. Either way, COBRA is NOT cheap, and munching Ramen noodles will hardly cover it.

Medicaid is free to the poor and pays the stupid and exuberant prices of the hospital. It’s PATHETIC. Hospitals are charging more for room and board, let alone medical care, than a 5 Star Hotel that the wealthy frequent on vacation. It’s pitiful.

Kelvin is a grade of temperature.

My name is Keltin.
 

Keltin

New member
My son, who I paid to put through collage to become a doctor, came in on his day off to put some stitches in my arm. Now he was on his own time at the hospital he worked using his personal supplies and put in all the stitches. All we used was a chair and table for all of 10 minutes. The hospital sent me a bill for $825. Now they didn't even give me a shot never mind a band aid. Every thing used my son had in his personal bag and the only reason he had me come to the hospital is not knowing how bad I was cut with a chance of infection. He did however pick up $700 of the tab and I paid for the what he used on me, which was fair.

Exactly my point! Most assume it is the Doctor's jacking the price, but you prove here the Doctor, your son, was on his own time and not part of the bill. Yet, the bill is $825 for rental of space. DAMN, they got a nice racket going on! I got a 12x12 space I'm willing to rent out!!!!
 

mak2

Active member
I hate to cut and paste an entire article but I certainly dont want to start another thread. Earlier tonight I was talking about how it is our duty as a soctiety to care for others. I have often said I did not understand how so many Christians could deny healthcare for others and I felt as a Christian it is something I should do. I say all the time free market controls cannot be applied to healthcare because you cannot refuse treatment, it might actually be suicide sometimes. Anyway, I ran across an article by a fellow that is much more articulate than I am and I am sure he types better too. As far as I know I have never seen this article before but I use several of these points on a regular basis. He is just much better at it.

If nothing else just read the last line.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bryan-young/a-good-case-for-universal_b_105866.html


Bryan Young
Bryan Young is a filmmaker and writer.
Posted: June 7, 2008 06:45 PM
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A Good Case for Universal Healthcare


I draw a modest income with my media production business, but being self-employed makes health insurance damn near impossible to afford. Hell, with the way self-employment taxes are set up, we're lucky to be able to pay those.
Because of this catch-22 (running your own business at the expense of normal company perks like medical care), I find myself thinking things that no one in an emergency should have to deal with. You see, at a Mother's Day barbecue last month, my son accidentally lit himself on fire. The barbecue was luau themed and he was wearing a grass skirt. Getting too close to an open flame with all of that dead grass and he was quickly running in circles in the backyard trying to put himself out before family members came to his aid.
My first thought (other than, "Jesus, he's on fire!") was, "Is this bad enough to need an emergency room visit?"
As soon as I got close enough to see that the skin on his hands and legs was bubbled over and charred, I realized that it was, indeed, bad enough to need a visit.
My second thought was, "But how will I pay for it?"
It's sad and disgusting to me that these things were forced to enter my mind when my only thought should have been getting my son immediately to the hospital. Fortunately, these questions were but split seconds in my judgment and we were in the car racing to the hospital in minutes.
The local emergency room didn't have the facilities to deal with burns as extensive and deep as my sons were, so we were quickly ambulanced to a facility at the University of Utah renowned for it's Burn Trauma Intensive Care Unit. (40 mile ambulance ride? $2,000)
When we got there, the doctors went to work, cutting his blisters off, treating his wounds and making assessments about the possibility of skin grafting. He had 2nd degree burns over 10% of his body and a few spots were on the border of 3rd degree. I spent 8 sleepless nights in that ICU with my son, helping clean his wounds and wash the dead skin and scabs off twice a day, knowing that this would all cost me more money than I could imagine. But I did it anyway, without regard to the cost because no matter how well off or poor, well insured or not insured at all, medical emergencies take precedence over monetary consideration.
We were able to bring him home just a couple of days before his birthday, though he still needed twice-a-day wound care (and still does). The total cost of this ordeal if I end up having to pay for it out of my own pocket? In excess of $25,000.
But did I have a choice?
No.
But things got worse. The night we brought him home, the most improbable thing in the world happened. I was struck with severe abdominal pain. The worst I've ever had in my life.
Again, I started asking myself these questions (after, "Jesus, this hurts like hell!"), "Is it bad enough to need a trip to the emergency room?"
After the first hour, I thought I could self-medicate the pain away. I don't get heartburn, but I assumed this might be what it's like, so I decided antacids (which I've never used) might help.
Another hour of writhing in pain with no help from antacids went by and I had to reassess my situation, "This still hurts like hell, and the antacids didn't work. Do I go to the hospital?"
Knowing that I couldn't afford a trip to the hospital, I decided I'd try more self-medication. "Perhaps I've pulled a muscle, or inflamed something," I thought. And then I proceeded to take some Ibuprofen; hoping painkillers might dull the pain.
Yet another hour of painful torture went by and I was forced again to assess the situation, "It actually hurts worse now, antacids and painkillers didn't help at all, perhaps it's something serious. But can I afford a trip to the hospital?"
The answer I came to was that, even if something serious were wrong, I couldn't afford a trip to the hospital and so I decided that the best course of action was to try sleeping off the pain.
Unfortunately, this didn't work either. I spent two hours in bed, tossing and turning, trying my hardest to find a position comfortable enough to wait out the pain. No comfortable middle-ground could be found and after 6 hours of excruciating pain and the knowledge that I wouldn't be able to sleep, suddenly, the cost of a trip to the hospital didn't seem so consequential.
But why should anyone be forced to writhe in pain for fear of having to pay for a trip to the emergency room? Shouldn't we, as a society, make sure that when people are in pain, that they are able to seek treatment without the fear of eternal debt and foreclosure and anything else medicals bills of impressive size would cause?
I went to the hospital and discovered that I had a severe case of gallstones and my gallbladder needed to be removed immediately to prevent worse problems, including death. I didn't really have a choice about this one. I prolonged my decision because of the economics of seeing a doctor and I could have made things a lot worse. The total cost of that operation? In excess of $15,000.
By the end of May, my son and I managed to incur more than $40,000 worth of medical debt. We're working on a couple of options to cover some or all of this (including Medicaid which is a paper-work nightmare but a dream come true if it works out).
But the point is this, I've actually spent more time filling out papers, answering questions, and tracking down documents and pay records trying to get help with these bills than I actually spent in the hospital.
How much safer, easier, cheaper and more pleasant would all of our lives be with single payer universal healthcare? To be able to breathe easy and see the doctor when you need to. To be able to have life-saving surgeries and not worry that you might have to sell your car or go late on your rent? Millions of Americans have problems like this every day and we should be ashamed of ourselves that we've led our culture so far down this road.
As for me? I'll probably end up ok, it seems as though I can get help for my sons bills with a couple of different government programs (like Medicaid or SCHIP). The chances of me getting help with the bills for my surgery are a little lower, but in any case, I'm sure I'll weather the storm. But for every case like mine, I'm sure there are a dozen families who simply can't weather the storm, and for that, we should be ashamed.
I'm sure there are a dozen Christian conservatives reading this now and asking themselves, "Why should we help with this? Why should we help people who can't afford to take care of themselves?"
In the novel Jailbird, Kurt Vonnegut provided me with the perfect answer to these questions and it's very simple: "Why? The Sermon on the Mount, sir."
 

joec

New member
GOLD Site Supporter
Exactly my point! Most assume it is the Doctor's jacking the price, but you prove here the Doctor, your son, was on his own time and not part of the bill. Yet, the bill is $825 for rental of space. DAMN, they got a nice racket going on! I got a 12x12 space I'm willing to rent out!!!!

Hell man I have a lot of spaces to rent out from 5x5 to 10x30. Remember I own a storae facility. :biggrin: I do think I might raise my prices to the level of health care cost though.
 

jpr62902

Jeanclaude Spam Banhammer
SUPER Site Supporter
Point being, the average medical expense is 500% above ANYONE’S income.

Saying to suck it up and save is ridiculous.

When a Hospital charges 80 dollars for Tylenol that I can buy for 2 bucks, or 625 for a room…..come on. No matter your “savings plan”, you’re getting your ass whipped by the inflated costs.

The “change” needs to start with the health care system, the doctors in their BMWs, and the Hospitals with their 700 dollar rooms. From there, we can work on a plan to pay them.

COBRA, for me anyway, only works if you HAD a job that paid medical and you want to extend it. Not sure what that has to do with this discussion. Either way, COBRA is NOT cheap, and munching Ramen noodles will hardly cover it.

Medicaid is free to the poor and pays the stupid and exuberant prices of the hospital. It’s PATHETIC. Hospitals are charging more for room and board, let alone medical care, than a 5 Star Hotel that the wealthy frequent on vacation. It’s pitiful.

Kelvin is a grade of temperature.

My name is Keltin.

500% because you say so doesn't make it so. And saving for times when the steady income flow is not there is not ridiculous. It's called "responsible."

Drop the Ramen noodles argument. It's silly. And regarding employment with or without health insurance, it's your choice. If you wanna bitch about not having insurance after being laid off from a job that didn't offer insurance and you didn't take out coverage for yourself, so be it. You are not entitled to health insurance. You have to take measures to procure it for yourself.
 

Keltin

New member
500% because you say so doesn't make it so. And saving for times when the steady income flow is not there is not ridiculous. It's called "responsible."

Drop the Ramen noodles argument. It's silly. And regarding employment with or without health insurance, it's your choice. If you wanna bitch about not having insurance after being laid off from a job that didn't offer insurance and you didn't take out coverage for yourself, so be it. You are not entitled to health insurance. You have to take measures to procure it for yourself.

What is the color of the sky in your world?

I’ve got paper bills in hand showing 625 for a room, 80 for Tylenol, and 3,000 for “lab time”.

LAB TIME.

3,000?

Yeah, I’m on that.

Tell me, if you cut cable, phone, and everything else that makes you a HUMAN and part of this SOCIETY….if you kill all of that, how long would you have to be pain and disease free before your savings, the savings that you accumulated by NOT being a part of the regular portion of the human race that enjoys the 20th century, how long do you have to be a Neanderthal in today’s society to save enough to pay a $14,000 dollar bill for a kidney stone? Maybe you’d rather suck it up and suffer at home and pass that stone privately???

Great, you saved some money……but then you get cancer…….$100,000 easy…….did you save that much?

Yeah man, I’m digging your whole “save for a healthier day” idea. Good stuff.
 

mak2

Active member
My wife probably spent a 100k this week. So many people just refuse to see. I am not poor (yet), I am not asking for any of that free healthcare, I am just telling the rest of you we are getting screwed. I hope you guys at least enjoy it.
 

jpr62902

Jeanclaude Spam Banhammer
SUPER Site Supporter
What is the color of the sky in your world?

I’ve got paper bills in hand showing 625 for a room, 80 for Tylenol, and 3,000 for “lab time”.

LAB TIME.

3,000?

Yeah, I’m on that.

Tell me, if you cut cable, phone, and everything else that makes you a HUMAN and part of this SOCIETY….if you kill all of that, how long would you have to be pain and disease free before your savings, the savings that you accumulated by NOT being a part of the regular portion of the human race that enjoys the 20th century, how long do you have to be a Neanderthal in today’s society to save enough to pay a $14,000 dollar bill for a kidney stone? Maybe you’d rather suck it up and suffer at home and pass that stone privately???

Great, you saved some money……but then you get cancer…….$100,000 easy…….did you save that much?

Yeah man, I’m digging your whole “save for a healthier day” idea. Good stuff.

Sooo, you're just gonna ignore my whole point about getting major medical insurance so you don't have such cost?

What do you do for a living?
 

Keltin

New member
Sooo, you're just gonna ignore my whole point about getting major medical insurance so you don't have such cost?

What do you do for a living?

I'm an Telecommunications Engineer with a Fortune 500 company. They pay the majority of my insurance. I pay 300 per month for the bit they dont' cover. My total poilicy on paper costs 1,200 per month.

Point is, if your company or job doesn't help like mine does, what do you do. "Saving money" ain't even close to what it takes to cover these bills. Not even.
 
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