The Myth of the Holocaust

[Archdean]

Eh?

Oh my God! An asian family moved in up the street from me! I knew I should have been suspicious when my kid wanted to eat with chopsticks last night! They're not coming, they are already here!
Dean, you are my font of information. What should I do?

Beats me BH but that hearing problem is rapidly becoming a vision problem as well , recommend a good optometrist be seen as soon as possible!
Hope that helps you!!
Dean

 

[Melensdad]

Well the saga continues. The world is wringing its hands and condemming Iran, but nobody seems to be addressing the problems.

EU Leaders: Patience Running Thin on Iran

AP 1 hour, 9 minutes ago


A day after Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad called the Holocaust a "myth," Europe's foreign ministers were expected to discuss his comments at a summit. German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier said his delegation would demand a European Union condemnation.

Ahmadinejad first provoked an international outcry in October when he called for Israel to be "wiped off the map."

Then, on Wednesday, he said in remarks carried live by state-run Iranian television that the Holocaust was a "myth" the Europeans used to create a Jewish state in the heart of the Islamic world.

"Today, they have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets," he said.

Benita Ferrero-Waldner, EU external relations commissioner, called Ahmadinejad's views "absolutely irresponsible." Denying the Holocaust — in which 6 million Jews died during World War II at Nazi hands — is a crime in several European nations.

China, which maintains good relations with both Iran and Israel, said such remarks could undermine world stability. "We are not in favor of any remarks detrimental to stability and peace," Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang said Thursday. "Israel is a sovereign state."

Moscow did not directly criticize Ahmadinejad but condemned any attempts to deny the Holocaust, and said it was necessary to restate Moscow's "principled position." "Speculation on these themes runs contrary to the principles of the U.N. Charter and the opinion of the world community," the Russian Foreign Ministry said.

Arab governments appeared reluctant to condemn Ahmadinejad. In Saudi Arabia, government-controlled newspapers picked up the remarks from international news agencies but did not comment on them.

The Palestinians tried to distance themselves. "Ahmadinejad's statements hurt the Palestinian cause because Israel and the Holocaust enjoy international recognition, and any denial of the Holocaust and Israel hurt not only those behind it but also justify Israeli actions against them," said Hani al-Masri in the Al Ayyam newspaper, which is close to the Palestinian Authority.

Steinmeier said Ahmadinejad's comments weighed heavily on talks over Tehran's nuclear program and showed "with how much irresponsibility and cynicism the Iranian government currently regards the situation of Israel and the Near East."

​

 

[nixon]

Well the saga continues. The world is wringing its hands and condemming Iran, but nobody seems to be addressing the problems.

Bob , I'm Very late to this thread. (and ,glad now that Chief and Dean are absent ) .
From my distant past , there is no myth to the holocaust. As a Young child , I saw Dachau. It wasn't some recreation . It was REAL ! To put in in the simplest terms , what I saw wasn't a tourist attraction . It was meant as a lesson to be heeded . But, apparently ,nothing was heeded , given the Balkans , Rwanda ,Liberia ...... the list is long . But to champion the fact that there was a Myth is to extend ,and encourage it's deadly effects . John

 

[Chief]

Bob , I'm Very late to this thread. (and ,glad now that Chief and Dean are absent ) .
From my distant past , there is no myth to the holocaust. As a Young child , I saw Dachau. It wasn't some recreation . It was REAL ! To put in in the simplest terms , what I saw wasn't a tourist attraction . It was meant as a lesson to be heeded . But, apparently ,nothing was heeded , given the Balkans , Rwanda ,Liberia ...... the list is long . But to champion the fact that there was a Myth is to extend ,and encourage it's deadly effects . John

Nixon, I am not absent.......... just taken and occupied with other more pressing commitments. Don't think I know you but I am flattered by those "kind and respectful" words. Your kind words demeanor remind me of the fine respectable treatment Senator Kennedy and Senator Feinstien gave Judge Sammuel Alito. Nice to meet you by the way! Please feel free and don't hesitate to call on me anytime!

 

[Archdean]

Although I voluntarily agreed in principle to not comment furthur on your board!! I too am not absent and should you direct your thoughts to something constructive and meaningfull rather than personal blind glee. I'm pleased that you are now "glad" that I'm supposedly absent , BTW who are you anyway? Do I know you? , Perhaps I'm remiss in not recognizing your significence and importantance in my life!!

 

[Archdean]

It was all you had to do in the first place!! rather then say before you so wisely had the sense to edit your comment !!

"Hello Archdean,OregonAlex has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - The Myth of the Holocaust - in the Debate and Discussion forum of Forums Forums -A fun place to talk about Anything..This thread is located at:http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showthread.php?t=1415&goto=newpostHere is the message that has just been posted:***************no shame.***************"

I was not the one who invoked my name where it should not of been!! THANK YOU!!

 

[OregonAlex]

in light of the above response I hearby voluntarily resign my member status and will refrain from any furthur participation in your Forum!!
Dean

I was not the one who invoked my name where it should not of been!! THANK YOU!!

To avoid awaking the spirits of days past, from here thus forward, the poster above should be referred to as "he who's name should not be typed" or more simply with the following proposed reserved symbol --> "__|"

while used in the following manner. Let me demonstrate visually below.

 

[Archdean]

As in keeping with the spirt of this board! It appears as though you can not!!

Admin, I will be interested to see if this can stand the light of day as jux-ta-posed against your published rules of civility!!

"
Hello Archdean,OregonAlex has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - The Myth of the Holocaust - in the Debate and Discussion forum of Forums Forums -A fun place to talk about Anything..This thread is located at:http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showthread.php?t=1415&goto=newpostHere is the message that has just been posted:*************** To avoid awaking the spirits of days past, from here thus forward, the poster above should be referred to as "he who's name should not be typed" or more simply with the following proposed reserved symbol --> "__|" while used in the following manner. Let me demonstrate visually below.(loser) "

 

[OregonAlex]

damn.. that symbol did not work.. it awoke "he who's name should not be typed".
Anyone know of another symbol, which might work?

I am hopeful that if we pick the right one the we can refer to "he who's name should not be typed" and not worry about about awaking him. Three hail Mary's.

Oh dear spirit of days gone past, please forgive us for our sins, for we do not wish to distrub you. We had thought that you had left as YOU promised you would. But by speaking your name and creating symbols which could serve to best describe you, we have awakened you. Please "he who's name should not be typed", spare us from your wrath....and go peaceful back from where you come.

 

[XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq]

Hey kids. Time out. Go to your corners. Seems like a pretty petty exchange to me.

You're wasting rows in the board's database.

 

[Snowcat Operations]

So they are saying its a MYTH.. One BIG Lie! Well my grandfather was there. He told me once and only once what he saw when I was a teenage boy. I had never seen him cry but what he told me was a bit to much for him even after 40+ years later (then). All I have to say about it being said a MYTH is look at the source. JEW haters. You know I dont have any bad feelings towards Jews or Arabs but please dont try and change history. Another thing. My wifes mother is German. Her dad was a Nazi. I once tried to have a discussion about what happend. This was the first time she EVER shut up. Later my father in law said that they dont talk about that time in there history. Its a huge black mark against Germans. Anyone who states the Holocaust never happend is an idiot!

 

[jdwilson44]

If you think about it, his solution of moving Israel to Europe would certainly solve a lot of problems.

Heck I'd welcome the Nation of Israel to our shores, we could carve out a space of equivalent size from somewhere.

Israel is a very productive and inventive nation, they share many of our core values, and they recieve a huge amount of our foreign aid. We could move them here, have a friend within our borders, give their nation to the Palestinians to provide them with the home they desire, reduce our overall foreign air outlays, and we'd defuse the entire reason that Al Quiada exists all at the same time.

There is another way to look at this problem too. If we didn't send so much of our foreign aid to Israel and we weren't such a big supporter of them maybe we wouldn't have been the targets of Al Quaeda attacks. I remember reading somewhere that Israel receives enough aid from the US that it comes out to a few thousand dollars per Israeli citizen. Their lobbyists influence our goverment - sometimes to the detriment of the citizens of THIS country. There have been persistent rumors of Israeli agents caught in the this country around the time of 9/11. All of this may or may not be true but to me the ultimate arbiter of whether I care enough to support something is how much it costs me. Ultimately I really don't see what the state of Israel has done for me or my country to warrant the money that has come from my pocket and gone to them via the US Goverment. If Israel is the reason that Al Queada attacked us then the costs of the Iraq war have a relatively direct link to Israel too. Last I heard the Iraq war was in the 200 odd billion dollar range for cost, with a recent report stating that by the time it is all over with the costs may be in the 500 billion dollar range. If I take the lower 200 billion number and divide by the approximate population of this country (280 million) I get $1111.11. This means that at the least the war in Iraq has cost myself and my wife at least $2222.22. If somebody was to stop me on the street and ask me to contribute that money to Iraq or to Israel I would politely decline. But thanks to the power of the US Govt and the IRS I don't have that option. If the state of Israel is truly as highly dependent on US aid and protection for it's very existence as I have read then it calls into question the very validity of Israel as a viable independent country - as well as giving some insight into why the Mideast is so peeved at us. I do believe the Holocaust happened - I had older relatives who were in Patton's army and saw the camps and I have read enough history to know it is true. The Iranians aren't stupid - they have their own agendas as does Al Quaeda. It might be good to remember that our ancestors came to these shores and called it the New World for a reason. They were sick of a lot of the bs of the old one. When we invaded Iraq we jumped feet first right back into the worst of the Old World.

 

[Melensdad]

Well I think that the US support for Israel may be one of the many factors that has Al Queada upset, but if it is the major factor then why did Al Queada aslo attack hotel is the island nation of Bali that are not frequented by US citizens? And why did they attack many other nations too? Much of this goes back to the Christian crusades 1000 years ago.

 

[Doc]

Good first post JD.

Glad you found our forum. Enjoy, and hope to see you post often.

While I agree with the majority of what you posted, it does not seem feasible to me for the US to back away from support for Israel any more than we can seriously pull all of our troops out of Iraq. I suppose it is the short sightedness of our leaders that gets us into these quagmires.

 

[jdwilson44]

I did say "maybe" we wouldn't have been targets of their attacks. There is much more to the whole Al Quaeda thing than just Israel. From what I have read the true purpose is to restore the Caliphate which was a Muslim empire of sorts. Israel is in many ways just a scapegoat and a rallying point of hatred for the Muslims. The whole discussion of moving Israel over here I found amusing - the Israelis are where they are because that was their ancient homeland and where they were supposed to be if they weren't exiled by pharoah or some such thing (history that far back is not my thing). Somehow I don't think dropping them along the Mexican border is really going to make anybody very happy.

 

[Melensdad]

I'll totally agree that Israel is where it is because they claim it is their historic/biblical homeland. I'll also totally agree that they would not be happy to leave. But if you go back to the very first post, you will notice that Iran's premier suggested moving it to Europe, he blamed Western Europe for causing the problem of the displaced Palestinians. Europe will not set aside territory for a new sovereign nation, largely because there is no land available. I tossed out the suggestion that I would welcome them here, but I did it from my personal point of view, not suggesting that the US would ever consider it.

 

[TOMLESCOEQUIP]

Gatorboy has some land for sale............

 

[jdwilson44]

Please don't interpret this reply to be an endorsement of the current behavior of the Iranians but if you look at the history of Israel the Iranian premier does have a point. If I remember correctly Israel was established in 1948 - and from what I remember reading about the history of that period many of the early settlers were Jewish refugees from the mess that was Europe at that point in time. Refugees who were basically looking for someplace to call their own - someplace where they could defend themselves. After going thru the Holocaust I am sure there was a lot of "never again will this happen to me or my people" type of attitude among them also. Hatred and discrimination against the Jews did not stop in Europe just because the war was over either so there was a big incentive for those early Israelis to get out of Europe. But where did they go - they went to Palestine which was already populated and basically took the land. The British tried to prevent it but couldn't or didn't want to.

What would have happened if Hitler had never existed? If WWII and the Holocaust had never happened? Would Israel ever have come into being? Maybe - maybe not. Europe wrings it's hands and says that they are so very sorry about the Holocaust and it will never happen again but the fact is that much of the Jewish population that existed before WWII is no longer in many European countries. They were either killed or they emigrated to Israel - so there is no chance that it could happen again because the people just aren't there. So Europe never really did have to deal with the problems it created - it neatly got away with having to atone and make up for past injustices because the people in question are dead or emigrated to Israel.

The point here is that the Arabs have their viewpoint of how things came to be in their current state and it is not entirely invalid. Because the US is far and away the biggest supporter of Israel we are viewed as part of the problem and not part of the solution. There was a time when the Arabs viewed the US differently and hoped that we might play fair and resolve some of the differences that plague the region but I don't think they hold that illusion any more. Think of it this way - currently we have a big problem in the US with illegal immigration (the same thing that was happening in Palestine before the establishment of the Israeli state). What do you think would happen if somewhere down the road the numbers of those illegal immigrants become overwhelming and they take over say California and Texas and claim them as ancestral homelands or some such thing. A new country is established and China comes over and starts giving the new country huge amounts of support in both money and military weapons. Wars are fought but because the new country is supported by a country with massive military might and nuclear weapons nobody is going to come to the aid of the US and risk the type of war that might ensue. And to top it off this new country keeps beating the remains of the US every time we go to war with them. We would be just a little pissed off and looking for some payback I believe. And we would blame certain countries south of the border for pushing their problems off on us. Actually I think recent editorials are already postulating this might be in the process of happening.

As far as welcoming Israel here I personally believe that they are already here. Their lobbyists and supporters in our goverment send massive amounts of foreign and military aid their way. Their companies come here and make plenty of money as do their workers on H1B visas. Supposedly it is a sort of tradition for many young people who have just completed their required military service in the IDF to come to the US on extended trips. There are persistent rumours of Israeli agents in the US directly after the 9/11 incidents. Israel has what I consider to be undue influence on our goverment over and above any real importance they have as an ally.

 

[Melensdad]

I'm just guessing at this, because I am not a Biblical scholar, nor am I Jewish, but I have a reasonable depth of understanding of the Old Testimant of the Bible and I'd have to guess that from the Jewish point of view, the land of Israel and the Jewish state dates back to a period that would have begun a few days after Moses died and that is well over 2000 years ago. So to suggest that 1948 is the start of this is probably somewhat unrealistic. However, I do agree with some of the broad points you are making.

 

[jdwilson44]

Here is but one of the many reasons why the Arabs they we are screwing them over:

from: http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

Benefits to Israel of US aid since 1949 ( as of Nov. 1 , 1997)
Grand Total: $84,854,827,200

Total Benefits broken down per Israeli:
$14,630

And here is the good stuff - we are paying the interest on this aid - so it costs us here in the US even more:

Total US Taxpayer cost per Israeli:
$23,240

We are massively subsidizing the state of Israel. This money lends them undue influence in the region and makes for hard feelings on the Arab side because they are fighting not only massive dollar infusions to Israel but also the heavy support of the US Govt. Now I don't particulary agree with much of what the Arab goverments stand for or how they act but we are not helping matters.

Last time I checked the Iraqi war itself has cost in the range of $200 billion so far. I have heard projections that it might cost upwards of $500 billion before it is all said and done. I said it before the war started and I will keep saying it - we would have been much better off if we took that money and invested in alternative energy sources so we would not be so reliant on oil from the Mideast. If you remove our reliance on oil from the equation why would we as a country have any interest in that region of the world? Without oil money that region would go back to being something like Sub Saharan Africa - poor and with no strategic interest for the US. We would have saved huge amounts of money spent on a war that will end solve nothing over there. We would have the potential to make the US as a country energy independent which would give us true national security. We could disengage from that region and would no longer have to send huge amounts of foreign aid to Israel. We could probably reduce our taxes by a pretty good amount. Think of it this way - if you divide $200 billion dollars by a rough estimate of the current US population (280 million?) you come up with $1111.11. This means so far the Iraqi war has cost each and every US citizen $1111.11. If you count it by households I bet the number rises to something like $5000 for every US household. If somebody stopped me on the street and said would like to help the Mideast or would you like a $5000 tax refund I think I would take the refund.

 

[jdwilson44]

The Mideast is like the Balkans - grievances going back hundreds if not thousands of years that will never get resolved. I think it was Thomas Jefferson who said "avoid foreign entanglements". The US has known what the region is like since at least as far back as 1805 when the Marines fought the Barbary Pirates ( 'the shores of Tripoli' from the Marine Hymn ). The Arabs and the Europeans fought for centuries, I believe Arab armies at one point almost reached Vienna, Al Quaeda still thinks that Spain should be Muslim lands. And we are now stuck in the middle of all this unfixable mess.

I believe you are correct in your comment about how far back the beginnings of the Jewish state go. I was just trying to use a little recent history as an example of how we got into our current problems.

 

[Melensdad]

I spent the better part of the day at the Field Museum in Chicago today. They have a new exhibit. It is a photographic account of the inside of Auschwitz taken by a Nazi SS officer. He took 200 photographs and created an album. The exhibit is only a small part of the album. My biggest complaint is that the exhibit was small and tucked out of the way behind the South Pacific cultures exhibit. I don't know why it was buried back there, it was actually hard to find. Given the impact on the world that the actual events had, I really wish the exhibit would have been larger and would have included more images other than those that were within the Nazi album.

If anyone has any questions about the myth of the Holocaust, they should view that exhibit. 1,100,000 Jews were killed in those gas chambers. Non-Jewish Pols, Roma and Russians raised the death toll to just over 1,200,000 in that camp alone. There is no question in my mind, after seeing those faces and photos, that the Nazi state was attempting to exterminate the entire Jewish race. It was hard not to cry in the exhibit.