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Iran

beds said:
Actually, not necessarily. Shari law states that you should be executed for renouncing Islam, but not for never believing in it in the first place.

Oh so you cant change your faith once your a Muslim? What the hell is the diffrence? That is fanatisism. What part are you missing?:pat:


Lets see if we strike a nuclear weapons program plant that is building nuclear weapons its the same as a terrorist attacking the Twin Towers? Yah I see that real clearly :pat:

So we cannot defend ourselves unless we are attacked first? :pat: Yah and I thought we already were:pat:

What the hell was I thinking. So you all feel we should just leave them alone and never do anything to piss them off. Never attack unless we are attacked? In other words we should be pacifists? Never look to defend ourselves right? Never look to defend our children right. Gee and I thought we had a responsibilty to our children to protect them. Thanks I will start to teach them to just bow down to all agression. Never stand up for your rights. Never help defend the weak. Just stand aside and let Evil run its course.

Yah!

:moon:
 
Snowcat Operations said:
So you all feel we should just leave them alone and never do anything to piss them off. Never attack unless we are attacked? In other words we should be pacifists?

YEP just be defensive,

BTW China may have the last say on this matter
 
Snowcat Operations said:
A nuclear bunker buster is not a so called Nuclear weapon of mass destruction.. Its for penetrating deep inside reinforced bunkers. I also didnt say THIS is the end times. But this is the region it will start in. We dont know when that is BUT we still need to protect our selves. So what you saying is if someone comes at you with a knife you are just going to let him stab you? Well? you know one day you are going to die. Is that your reasoning? JFK established a division (CIA) to protect us from ever being surprise attacked again (Pearl Harbor) Clinton basically destroyed that capability. There is nothing wrong with taking someones ability away before they can use it against us. This was a good discussion. Hope you have a good life and I hope we dont get nuked. But if we do it will be because of people like you.

I know exactly what a nuclear bunker buster is and I know that they are used for. If you think that every one of those nuclear bunker busters will go off perfectly and not spread radiation - will not kill tens of thousands of people in collateral damage, not cause the Russians, Ukranians, Europeans, etc. to get completely pissed at us as clouds of radioactive dust blow over their countries, and if you think that we will get every single nuclear site - and the Iranians will then just throw up their hands and say " damn the Americans blew up our labs - I guess we better stop doing this nuclear thing now" you are playing with half a deck.

Once we start nuking Iran we will demonstrate to the rest of the world in no uncertain terms that we are prepared to go after just about anybody with nuclear weapons if they do something we don't like. This will lead the Russians, the Chinese, and possibly even the French to seriously consider first strike nuclear attacks against us if any sort of disagreement comes up between us. It will also give every single terrorist organization in the world an overriding reason to acquire nuclear weapons and go after us. You forget that the Russians still have tens of thousands of nuclear weapons , the North Koreans have nuclear technology, South Africa has nuclear technology, as does Pakistan and India. Sooner or later somebody will come to the conclusion that they will be better off nuking Washington and a few other choice American cities rather than waiting around for us to nuke them.

I will say it again because it doesn't seem to have sunk into your brain - the only way militarily we can possibly be sure of eliminating all of the Iranian nuclear capacity is to nuke every possible site - and according to the Time magazine article I read a couple of weeks ago - there are at least 20. Once we do this we cross the rubicon - we open the Pandora's box that I talked about in the paragraph above. Not to mention this makes us the exact type of people that all of the Islamics claim we are - as well as violating every Christian principle that I have ever heard of. What would Jesus do? Somehow I don't think the response would be Nuke Em.

We do need to protect ourselves - but you don't protect yourself by jumping into every damn fight that comes along - sometime discretion is the better part of valor. Although a good part of the Islamic world might be suicidal I truly do not believe that they are suicidal enough to want the complete destruction of their world.

Mutual Assured Destruction worked just fine against the Russians. We poked and prodded each other and actually came damn close a few times but we never did nuke each other. The same principle can work in this situation - we need to get energy independent - if we continue to be dependent on the Islamic world for energy there is nothing good that can come of it. Last time I checked the United States still has in the realm of 20,000 nuclear weapons. We need to talk to the Russians and Chinese and tell them that they need to control their nukes - then we need to tell the Iranians that if a nuclear weapons is ever detonated on US soil and we cannot prove it is either Russian or Chinese we will assume that it is an Iranian supplied - terrorist detonated nuclear weapon. After sufficient proof is gathered - or because of your past threats, even marginal proof of guilt - we are going to completely wipe your country from the face of the earth.

They damn well know we have the means to do it.

All we have to do at that point is stand back and watch the wheels turn. Once other countries in the region and around the world figure out that the US is no longer there to run interference for them and once the fact that we are serious about completely destroying any country that tries to nuke us and get away with they will fall all over themselves to find a solution.

If your solution is applied to Iran Snowcat it is sure to lead to the deaths of millions - history has proven that time after time and is proving it once again in Iraq right now. I don't know where you live - if your picture is any indication you live up in the mountains - I don't have that luxury, I live about 20 miles outside of a city - not a good place to be when a nuke goes off. Since your solution is a pretty direct line to getting me and mine killed - pardon me if I disagree with your proposal.

The point here is to really win - not huff and puff and show how mighty we are. We already are mighty - we don't need to keep stuffing people's faces in the ground with it, all that does is piss people off - Islamic and otherwise.
 
yah tens of thousands will die from Nuclear fall out caused by the smallest of Nuclear war heads being detonated under ground. Yah Look at all the tens of thousands that dropped dead from Cherynobel. NOT. Typical of you types. Scare people into believing that BS. You wouldnt knw the facts if they hit you in the face.
 
Maybe this nuclear BS has gone too far already, no one will win in a nuclear exchange. Even if we are first, we lose........in the end......The solution I do not know, but it has to be somewhere and not in total world destruction which is likely with any type of nuclear exchange!!!!! Being as tough or weak as you want will not change the outcome of a major nuclear conflict of any magnitude.:confused:

Just my my 2 cents worth.......
 
Oh, my gosh, it IS God's plan! It IS the End Times! We drop nukes in the Middle East, thereby causing a firestorm the likes of which the world has never seen. One bunker buster, and the entire Muslim world (which outnumbers us) rises up. With legitimate cause! The Great Satan has unleased the End of the World FireStorm!

Snowcat, you're on to something -- I just never figured that it would be the American religious terrorists who started it!
 
Snowcat Operations said:
Oh now we are terrorist. You guys are unbelievable! Actually you are insane.
I'm pretty sure that anyone who advocates using a nuclear weapon is the one who's insane. Want to try a poll?
 
OkeeDon said:
I'm pretty sure that anyone who advocates using a nuclear weapon is the one who's insane. Want to try a poll?

A poll might be interesting - I still want one of those Davy Crockett's though - just for the deterent value :D
 
OkeeDon said:
I'm pretty sure that anyone who advocates using a nuclear weapon is the one who's insane.

Don, I agree totally with you on this, but, now that the islamofacists in iran have nuclear capabilities, do you seriously think that they will not use it on Israel? Should Isreal not defend itself? And by that, if they wait for the first one to be detonated there, haven't they already lost? Or should we just turn our back on them and walk away?

We are NOT dealing with sane, rational, civized people. We are dealing with the lowest dregs of animal filth who do this, this and this. Could you negotiate with this? Could John Kerry or Hillary Roddam? Can anyone? The only thing they understand is power, and currently they have it.

Something needs to be done with the power vacuum in Washington. The career politicians there (both sides of the isle) are worthless. Unless we do something soon a real powerful personality will come along and we will have another Hitler on our hands, here. (and by no means could that be GWB - he doesn't have the magnatism or charisma.)
 
First of all, what affects the Israelis is the Israelis' problem. I have no doubt they'll deal with it effectively. They have in the past. I also trust them to use more common sense than our own President, and to use conventional weapons to solve the problem, rather than the nuclear (or is it nucular?) bunker busters that have been bandied about lately. Part of that is because I'm beginning to have sincere concerns about our President's mental health (Appearing sane is Hard Work! And we're working hard at it!). His speeches are more erratic than ever, for example. I think the pressure is getting to him.

Next, according to the reports I've been readiing, Iran is still 10 to 15 years away from having any sort of nuclear weapons capability. I think there is plenty of time to try to reach an agreement. Part of the reason why Iran insists they need this type of weapon is because we keep threatening to invade them. Could Kerry or Hillary negotiate with them? I think electing anyone else other than GWB would go about 75% of the way towards no longer needing negotiations. And, yes, I think that cooler heads can prevail, instead of the macho bullshit attitude of the neocons (who are disowned by their own founder). In short, it's not Bush's problem. You watch, though; he only has a couple of years left for his Dr. Strangelove policies, so he'll do something else even more stupid than invading Iraq.

It's probably going to take decades to undo the harm that the Bush administration is causing; if they start using nukes, I doubt it can ever be undone.
 
OkeeDon said:
Part of the reason why Iran insists they need this type of weapon is because we keep threatening to invade them.
I thought they've been insisting they're not making weapons.

N. Korea more likely follows the statement you provided.
 
Av8r3400 said:
Don, I agree totally with you on this, but, now that the islamofacists in iran have nuclear capabilities, do you seriously think that they will not use it on Israel? Should Isreal not defend itself? And by that, if they wait for the first one to be detonated there, haven't they already lost? Or should we just turn our back on them and walk away?

We are NOT dealing with sane, rational, civized people. We are dealing with the lowest dregs of animal filth who do this, this and this. Could you negotiate with this? Could John Kerry or Hillary Roddam? Can anyone? The only thing they understand is power, and currently they have it.

Something needs to be done with the power vacuum in Washington. The career politicians there (both sides of the isle) are worthless. Unless we do something soon a real powerful personality will come along and we will have another Hitler on our hands, here. (and by no means could that be GWB - he doesn't have the magnatism or charisma.)

I can't answer for Don but I personally believe that they may actually consider using it on Israel - but if they have any sense whatsoever they will not. From everything I have read the Israelis posess a stock of nuclear weapons numbering in the teens - which at least at this point in history is much more than the Iranians have - the Israelis also have recently bought submarines from the Germans I believe - so they are probably developing the ability to launch nuclear weapons from cruise missiles at sea.

I am fully familiar with all of the speeches of the Iranian leader. One of the things that has to be realized is that the terrorism that is practiced out of the Mideast is a tactic that is borne of weakness. They have no other alternatives so the resort to sacrificing brainwashed suckers to go and carry out suicide bombing attacks while the rich leaders sit back in their fancy palaces and their wives enjoy Paris vacations. The threat of nuclear war changes the playing field just a little because it is no longer expendable minions that stand a chance of getting killed - it is every living breathing thing in the country - including the rich men's 10 wives and many illegitimage children ;) .

Why am I so insistent that we should not be there? Because in the end I believe the only way the area can be "fixed" by our standards - is by starting at the shores of the Mediteranean and then by marching all the way across the whole of the Mideast until we get to the borders of India and wiping out every living thing along the way. Until you are ready to accept that we have no business being over there because anything less is half measures and is doomed to fail. Any interferences by us are looked upon by what they are by Muslims - interferences. It is the same thing as the people in this country who resent any intrusion by the UN into internal matters of the United States - they are our problems and we will fix them ourselves- we don't need your help.

But you do point out the real crux of the problem - Israel. After all I have read over the last couple of years I find it extremely hard to believe that we are not in the Mideast at least in part as a give-me to Israel. We supply Israel with substantial amounts of foreign aid (at least $3 billion per year - $500 per citizen in Israel) and there is substantial influence over the policies of our goverment by lobbyists and others who are sympathetic to Israel's cause. Please don't misinterpret me as saying that Israel does not have a right to exist - they have every right to exist and defend themselves. What I do not believe they have the right to do is manipulate our goverment and our foreign policies to their favor. There have been numerous incidents where there was espionage against the US by Israeli agents - Johnathan Pollard comes to mind as one. As far back as 1967 the Israelis did what was good for them and screw the US - remember the USS Liberty - attacked in the Mediteranean by Israeli warplanes? In the end it comes down to this - if Israel is to be a valid country they have to stand on their own two feet and defend and support their nation without the massive foreign aid from the US and without manipulating US foreign policy in their favor. The influence of Israel also makes the Muslims pour massive money into this country in attempts to get their own point across:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=12833

I say get them all out and have the US goverment go back to making decisions that actually benefit the citizens of this country - not Israel, not Palestine, not Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran or Mexico. We are being deluged with propaganda and manipulated by both sides and now our troops are over there - right between Israel and Iran. Our tax dollars are being pissed away on Iraq while people are still suffering from Katrina. Our bridges and highways fall apart while new schools get built in Iraq. My wife's brother is going to Iraq shortly on a US goverment contract to build new schools - he will be making in the vicinity of $250,000.00 a year - tax free, all paid for by the US taxpayers. Another one of her brothers has been over there for over 2 years now - making in the vicinity of $200,000.00 a year installing IT equipment in the Green Zone, again paid for by the US taxpayers. The money they are making is about 3 times what each of those jobs would be paid back in this country. A nice gig - paid for by the US taxpayers. Just the other day I read a story about a local city that has had one of the US Army temporary bridges over a local river - for twenty years now. The pilings are rotting away and the bridge needs to be replaced. They do not have the budget to do it - it will cost about 14million if I remember correctly. I am sure we have put up numerous bridges like that in Iraq and it cost the US taxpayer a lot more than 14 million apiece for each of them. Meanwhile local residents will probably be swimming the river once the bridge is deemed unsafe.

Doesn't this stuff piss you off? This is why I say screw Iraq, screw Iran, screw Israel, screw Saudi Arabia. We have more than enough issues right here at home to keep ourselves busy.

If we move forward on Iran I truly believe it will break this country. If you think the Patriot act took away freedoms just wait until we are at nuclear war ready status. If you think the deficit is high now just wait until we invade Iran and have another shithole to support.

There is no power vacuum in Washington - they have plenty of power. There is an intelligence, leadership, and creativity vacuum. A true leader and a true patriot would not have gotten us involved in this mess. They would have looked out for the well being of this country first and foremost. If that entailed a crash program for new forms of nuclear energy and gas rationing so we can force ourselves to be more energy independent so be it.

I do agree with Av8R on his last statement - if something is not done somewhere along the line a strong personality is going to get elected and something really bad is going to happen and we will have dictatorship. Around the time of the last election it was already discussed that maybe the election would be "postponed" because of the threat of terrorism. Good planning ahead - get the idea out there and maybe the next time people will buy into it.

Like Av8R said - the politicians on both sides are worthless. The immigration debate has shown that to be true. In the end I personally think the only thing that will break up the Republicratic-Democran cabal we have running our country now is a third party - a legitimate one that actually gets candidates elected and adheres to and believes in our Constitution. I starting to see rumblings on the internet about this from many editorial writers forums posters, as well as people I know in my personal life. Sometimes things have to get broken so that people can see how they need to be fixed - lets not hope this country doesn't get so broken it cannot be put back together.
 
I agree with most of what jdwilson wrote.

jd, here I'm going to be guilty of interpreting some of the things you've said. Please correct me where I'm wrong.

I think the primary difference between jd and me is in this statement:
jdwilson44 said:
I say get them all out and have the US goverment go back to making decisions that actually benefit the citizens of this country - not Israel, not Palestine, not Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran or Mexico.
Back when more moderate leaders of both parties were leading our government, foreign aid was recognized as being of benefit to the citizens of this country. Also, GWB was elected on a promise not to "nation build", a promise long forgotten in their attempts to make history in Iraq.

Reasonable and moderate foreign aid, even to divergent nations like Israel and Iran, has done more good than harm, in my opinion. For better or worse, the United States is a member of the world community, and it's impossible to withdraw into isolationism, now. Consider trael and illness, just as an example. Unless we are willing to restrict all travel and importation of all goods, it will be possible for our imports and tourists to bring back diseases from other areas of the globe. Other than total isolation, the only way to combat these diseases is foreign aid directed at the source. This is clearly a benefit to the citizens of this country, and is only one of dozens, if not hundreds, of examples I could name.

Where I would draw the line, is military aid. Essentially, it became prominent during the Cold War. The USSR would arm faction A, so we had to arm faction B, or the USSR would predominate. Today, the opposing armorers are China and some 3rd World nations like North Korea. In some cases, the arms are coming from our allies, like Germany and France, because they see the production as good for their economy (there's a large part of our activities tied up in that, also). My efforts would be directed at reducing those arms races, while continuing compassionate aid to reduce disease and raise standards of living.

I think where jd and I totally agree is that we have to reexamaine our priorities. I have no problem with foreign aid at historically low percentages of our GNP; I have a real problem with spending more on Iraq, for example, than we spend on our own poor.

I'm convinced that the root cause of spending cuts like cutting back on college financing, for example, is because the so-called conservatives who are in power perceive it to be a weakness to help anyone who has not yet helped themselves. They have it fixed in their heads that the poor are all Cadillac welfare queens, and they are perfectly willing to cast them aside, while sending Billions to help the poorest Iraqi. They're wrong on both counts, of course, but they'll never see that because of their preconceived beliefs and their blinders.

With that thought in mind, I'd like to make the outrageous suggestion that it's better for the money to go to Iraq, because at least the poor somewhere are getting the benefit. If we keep the money at home, it will be horded by the rich because they will never agree to spend it on the American poor.
 
bczoom said:
I thought they've been insisting they're not making weapons.
Woops! Somehow I missed this humerous comment when you made it. Sorry. Once I saw it, I had to highlight the satire and dry wit -- good one!
 
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