EV real life experience

[NorthernRedneck]

Here's a story I came across from a Canadian...


Took my wife into work today for safety sakes. It’s -45 this morning.

Saw a fellow sitting in his EV at a charging station. The businesses were still closed for him to stay warm and dawdle while his car charged.

I briefly spoke with him as he went into the store. He said he’s been sitting in the car running the heaters and it was taking about twice as long to charge. The car’s range was about 280km in the cold he said.

The fellow said his trip to Saskatoon from Kelowna takes about 3 times longer for charging time (sitting time).

His charges today were about $100 and two hours of sitting with heaters on and the battery was only 2/3 charged.

He said he liked his EV, but only in summer. But he said only if it’s not too hot, AC drains batteries very fast.

So, if you live in Canada, and are considering buying an EV, make sure your pockets are deep and you’re NEVER on a schedule. I wished him luck. His name was Jack (John) from Kelowna.

 

[mbsieg]

EV real life experience number 2

It was -33f in Worland yesterday morning, high was -16. Got in truck drove to Cody Wy 90 mi away. Went shopping ate lunch. Drove home 90 mi. Plugged into charger in garage. Full charge this am. Uneventful trip.

Point is everybody's experience is different. All vehicles have their place. Can an EV work in a place where the nearest Walmart is 90 mi away. Yes

 

[m1west]

EV real life experience number 2

It was -33f in Worland yesterday morning, high was -16. Got in truck drove to Cody Wy 90 mi away. Went shopping ate lunch. Drove home 90 mi. Plugged into charger in garage. Full charge this am. Uneventful trip.

Point is everybody's experience is different. All vehicles have their place. Can an EV work in a place where the nearest Walmart is 90 mi away. Yes

How much range did you have left when you returned home?

 

[mbsieg]

How much range did you have left when you returned home?

If I remember correctly, 30% honestly didn't pay attention Had no reason to yesterday. I honestly don't even know how many miles we put on in Cody.

 

[m1west]

If I remember correctly, 30% honestly didn't pay attention Had no reason to yesterday. I honestly don't even know how many miles we put on in Cody.

I would be interested in knowing real world battery/ efficiency losses in the cold, from someone that actually owns one.

 

[mbsieg]

I would be interested in knowing real world battery/ efficiency losses in the cold, from someone that actually owns one.

I will try to document a trip. Not sure when the next one will be. Don't have anything planned. Other than trips to town and work for Beth.

 

[chowderman]

"It’s not plug and go. You have to precondition the battery, meaning that you have to get the battery up to the optimal temperature to accept a fast charge,"

so . . . cars plugged in and do not charge . . . battery is too cold to charge , , , ,

MSN

www.msn.com

 

[bczoom]

"It’s not plug and go. You have to precondition the battery, meaning that you have to get the battery up to the optimal temperature to accept a fast charge,"

so . . . cars plugged in and do not charge . . . battery is too cold to charge , , , ,

Don't know if it's similar, but I have Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries as part of my backup power system.
They will not accept a charge below 32°.

 

[Melensdad]

I would be interested in knowing real world battery/ efficiency losses in the cold, from someone that actually owns one.

For whatever it is worth, Consumer Reports is going to start adding more data to their EV reviews. They admit cold weather is tough to quantify.

They are planning to do, actually have already done, distance tests where they literally drive on the interstate until the battery dies and the car stops. Surprisingly some cars actually went farther than the EPA range. Most were pretty close. And about 20% fell short by maybe 10% or more. I don't recall the link to the article, but I was surprised the results were better than I anticipated. Especially since, when I was shopping in the summer/fall of 2023 for a vehicle, even the car dealerships were saying that the EPA range was probably over-stated for highway speeds.

 

[mbsieg]

"It’s not plug and go. You have to precondition the battery, meaning that you have to get the battery up to the optimal temperature to accept a fast charge,"

so . . . cars plugged in and do not charge . . . battery is too cold to charge , , , ,

MSN

www.msn.com

Tesla has a huge problem if their batteries are not heating up fast enough. I wonder if it has something to do with them using a heat pump?

 

[mbsieg]

Don't know if it's similar, but I have Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries as part of my backup power system.
They will not accept a charge below 32°.

Yep that is one of the downfalls of lithium batteries. No cold weather charging.

 

[FrancSevin]

Here's a "real life experience for you."

'Dead robots': Chicago's extreme cold knocks out Tesla cars

Electric vehicles may be the way of the future, but many EV owners are having trouble dealing with Chicago’s bitterly cold temperatures.

news.yahoo.com

 

[mbsieg]

I use a mini split to heat my garage, IE heat pump. The cold weather definitely affects its performance. Luckily mine does perform in -40 temperatures but it has to go into deice mode often. Also does not put out the BTUs it does when it is warmer. If Tesla and others are relying on a heat pump to keep the battery temperature up, this definitely would be an issue. Huge issue.

 

[FrancSevin]

I use a mini split to heat my garage, IE heat pump. The cold weather definitely affects its performance. Luckily mine does perform in -40 temperatures but it has to go into deice mode often. Also does not put out the BTUs it does when it is warmer. If Tesla and others are relying on a heat pump to keep the battery temperature up, this definitely would be an issue. Huge issue.

Yep!
Huge!

 

[Melensdad]

Well not my life experience but I'm watching WGN 9 local news out of Chicago and this pops up.

EV drivers struggle to keep batteries charged amid winter freeze

CHICAGO — The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal with long lines at charging stations and reduced…

wgntv.com

Full Story at the link above ^^^ But the story showed interviews with people who couldn't charge, had their cars towed, etc.

EV drivers struggle to keep batteries charged amid winter freeze

CHICAGO — The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal with long lines at charging stations and reduced…

wgntv.com

EV drivers struggle to keep batteries charged amid winter freeze​

by: Dana Rebik, Gabriel Castillo ​

Posted: Jan 15, 2024 / 05:29 PM CST ​

Updated: Jan 16, 2024 / 10:24 AM CST​

​

CHICAGO — The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.​

​

A station with 20 Tesla Superchargers, off West Touhy Avenue in Skokie, was full almost all day on Monday, with drivers waiting nearby for spots to open up. ​

​

Some drivers dealing with the long lines said they were concerned about becoming stranded if their batteries ran out while they waited.​

​

One Tesla driver said he was grateful just to find a station after he drained his car battery searching for an open spot. ​

​

“I saw my battery was getting low 20 to 25%. Went to the gas station there was a long line,” Tesla driver Wes France said. ​

​

France said he then drove to the station at the fashion outlet station in Rosemont, but it wasn’t in service. ​

​

“By that time my battery drained down to 5%, which is faster than normal,” France said. ​

​

France eventually had to load his car onto a tow truck to get it to a charger. ​

​

“Long story short here I am. We had to tow it out this way,” France said. ​

​

The sub-zero temperatures are taking a toll on the EV batteries, leaving drivers frustrated. ​

​

Darryl Johnson, an Uber driver, said he waited hours just to get to a charger, only to wait even longer while it charged. But the frustrations continued even after he left after he found his battery draining faster than normal. ​

​

“It’s horrible it takes two hours the wait an hour it takes two hours to charge, then the charge leaves really quickly, so now you’re back at the charger twice a day,” Johnson said. ​

​

According to the Associated Press, a 2019 study of five EVs by AAA found that cold temperatures can temporarily reduce EV range by more than 40% when drivers use interior heaters.​

​

The AAA study found that in 20-degree weather, the average driving range fell by 12% when the car’s heater was not used and the range fell by 41% when it was used.​

​

Several cars had to be towed at a charging station in Rolling Meadows on Sunday night after batteries died while drivers were waiting for open spots. ​

​

“I think I had 30% when I went to bed and parked at 8/9 p.m..” Eddie Zipperstein, the owner of Richards Body Shop, said. “When I woke up it’s at 16%, so this cold definitely sucks the power out of the batteries faster.” ​

​

Zipperstein’s body shop on West Lawrence Avenue is a certified Tesla service center, and he said there are a few steps a Tesla owner can take to try and avoid a breakdown. ​

​

“If you can park in a garage, clearly, it’s better to keep the car warm. It makes a huge difference when you’re going to charge, let the navigation know you’re going to a charger so the car can pre-condition the battery to accept a charge a lot faster that way,” Zipperstein said. ​

​

Zipperstein also suggested drivers charge up before their batteries get below 30%.​

​

 

[FrancSevin]

So, to save money I bought a $60,000 EV only to find out I have to put up a $30,000 Heated garage to drive it in winter.

Funny, EV's Tesla's, have been on the roads for years. And we are just now finding out about this?

In 11 years a lot of states have mandated EV only sales. I hope for the sake of EV owners, not to mention my stock in Tesla, they fix this.

 

[mbsieg]

Well not my life experience but I'm watching WGN 9 local news out of Chicago and this pops up.

EV drivers struggle to keep batteries charged amid winter freeze

CHICAGO — The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal with long lines at charging stations and reduced…

wgntv.com

Full Story at the link above ^^^ But the story showed interviews with people who couldn't charge, had their cars towed, etc.

EV drivers struggle to keep batteries charged amid winter freeze

CHICAGO — The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal with long lines at charging stations and reduced…

wgntv.com

EV drivers struggle to keep batteries charged amid winter freeze​

by: Dana Rebik, Gabriel Castillo ​

Posted: Jan 15, 2024 / 05:29 PM CST ​

Updated: Jan 16, 2024 / 10:24 AM CST​

​

CHICAGO — The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.​

​

A station with 20 Tesla Superchargers, off West Touhy Avenue in Skokie, was full almost all day on Monday, with drivers waiting nearby for spots to open up. ​

​

Some drivers dealing with the long lines said they were concerned about becoming stranded if their batteries ran out while they waited.​

​

One Tesla driver said he was grateful just to find a station after he drained his car battery searching for an open spot. ​

​

“I saw my battery was getting low 20 to 25%. Went to the gas station there was a long line,” Tesla driver Wes France said. ​

​

France said he then drove to the station at the fashion outlet station in Rosemont, but it wasn’t in service. ​

​

“By that time my battery drained down to 5%, which is faster than normal,” France said. ​

​

France eventually had to load his car onto a tow truck to get it to a charger. ​

​

“Long story short here I am. We had to tow it out this way,” France said. ​

​

The sub-zero temperatures are taking a toll on the EV batteries, leaving drivers frustrated. ​

​

Darryl Johnson, an Uber driver, said he waited hours just to get to a charger, only to wait even longer while it charged. But the frustrations continued even after he left after he found his battery draining faster than normal. ​

​

“It’s horrible it takes two hours the wait an hour it takes two hours to charge, then the charge leaves really quickly, so now you’re back at the charger twice a day,” Johnson said. ​

​

According to the Associated Press, a 2019 study of five EVs by AAA found that cold temperatures can temporarily reduce EV range by more than 40% when drivers use interior heaters.​

​

The AAA study found that in 20-degree weather, the average driving range fell by 12% when the car’s heater was not used and the range fell by 41% when it was used.​

​

Several cars had to be towed at a charging station in Rolling Meadows on Sunday night after batteries died while drivers were waiting for open spots. ​

​

“I think I had 30% when I went to bed and parked at 8/9 p.m..” Eddie Zipperstein, the owner of Richards Body Shop, said. “When I woke up it’s at 16%, so this cold definitely sucks the power out of the batteries faster.” ​

​

Zipperstein’s body shop on West Lawrence Avenue is a certified Tesla service center, and he said there are a few steps a Tesla owner can take to try and avoid a breakdown. ​

​

“If you can park in a garage, clearly, it’s better to keep the car warm. It makes a huge difference when you’re going to charge, let the navigation know you’re going to a charger so the car can pre-condition the battery to accept a charge a lot faster that way,” Zipperstein said. ​

​

Zipperstein also suggested drivers charge up before their batteries get below 30%.​

​

100% an issue here. It would be very interesting to get some information from someone that's not a news source and looking for click bait headlines. But there's a lot of things not adding up in the stories. If indeed it was one set of chargers that went down and caused all this That's very interesting. Chicago land is severely behind on the amount of fast chargers they need.

My experience with the Ford lightning as long as the batteries not completely cold soaked it charges the same on a negative 20 day as it does on a 60° day. When the truck is cold Soaked it can take 30 minutes to warm the battery up before it will accept any electricity. But that only happens if you haven't driven or used electricity out of the battery in 8 to 10 hours or more. Some say it takes even longer, the CEO of Ford said the battery pack only drops one degree an hour. Because it is such a large mass.

I'm guessing this is an issue with the heat pump in the Tesla. It cannot produce heat fast enough to warm the battery or keep the battery warm in inclement weather. But I have no first-hand experience only talking to some people that have driven them in the cold. They're saying this is a problem in the model 3 and y. The more expensive cars have resistive and a heat pump.

In researching slow cold charging it does seem the cheaper vehicle's have more problems. Chevy bolt, Nissan leaf, ECT

 

[m1west]

Now I'm really confused, at the cabin, I am using Lithium batteries sourced from a Nissan Leaf. I have been up there when it a lot colder than 29 degrees and the solar system charged the batteries without issue. I have been up there with night time temps @ -17F and used the electricity at night and first thing in the morning to make coffee,The system starts charging when the sun came out around 7:30-8am without a problem. There is no kind of computer controls, just a Midnite charge controller, maybe thats the difference?

 

[mbsieg]

Removing energy from lithium batteries in the cold is no problem. Charging below 32° is not good for lithium batteries. Normally lithium batteries always incorporate a BMS. Most BMSs have a low temperature cut off. As you can cause lots of damage to the battery pack charging below freezing. I am not familiar with your system so I cannot speak on your behalf. This is just what I've been taught.

Battery Dies in Cold Weather: What Low Temperatures Do to Your Battery

Why do batteries die in the cold? Dive into the question and find the best solution to keep lithium batteries warm with this article.

www.renogy.com

 

[bczoom]

Normally lithium batteries always incorporate a BMS. Most BMSs have a low temperature cut off.

I tried charging my lithium batteries the other day when it was about 28°. The charger just sat there with the red light on saying it's ready and waiting. I waited... no change. I unplugged it and will try again on a warmer day (like sometime in April).

 

[NorthernRedneck]

Here's something that scares me about electric vehicles. About 5 hrs drive east of me along the north shore of lake superior, there's been snow squalls for three days that have closed that section of highway. Let's say I'm in an electric vehicle stuck in this. Sure most if not all 4 wheel vehicles would turn around and proceed to the nearest community for shelter. But with the lack of charging infrastructure available, once the highway does reopen, how long will the line up be at the lone charger available within a 4 hr drive each direction? That's the reality many are facing tonight as one of only 2 highways across the country has been closed due to snow squalls for 3 days.

 

[Melensdad]

Here's something that scares me about electric vehicles. About 5 hrs drive east of me along the north shore of lake superior. . . That's the reality many are facing tonight as one of only 2 highways across the country has been closed due to snow squalls for 3 days.

I think what you highlight is the problem with a government mandating what individual needs.

Be it an electric car or anything else, the reality of the world's history is such that "central planning" has failed time and time again. But that should not be confused with the fact that for some people the choice is the correct choice and while for others a different choice works. I don't think anyone on this forum is an advocate for government mandates of pretty much anything.

 

[m1west]

Removing energy from lithium batteries in the cold is no problem. Charging below 32° is not good for lithium batteries. Normally lithium batteries always incorporate a BMS. Most BMSs have a low temperature cut off. As you can cause lots of damage to the battery pack charging below freezing. I am not familiar with your system so I cannot speak on your behalf. This is just what I've been taught.

Battery Dies in Cold Weather: What Low Temperatures Do to Your Battery

Why do batteries die in the cold? Dive into the question and find the best solution to keep lithium batteries warm with this article.

www.renogy.com

Been doing it 3 years without any adverse effects yet. But its not frequent in the winter. Everything is isolated when I'm not there.

 

[300 H and H]

Most issues will go away on the cold if you keep your car in a heated garage and charge it there as well.

If I had a Tesla that is exactly how I would operate. For local driving, 95% of what we do with a car, the Tesla
would be just fine.

 

[NorthernRedneck]

Most issues will go away on the cold if you keep your car in a heated garage and charge it there as well.

If I had a Tesla that is exactly how I would operate. For local driving, 95% of what we do with a car, the Tesla
would be just fine.

That brings up another thing I've been wondering. So let's say hypothetically I went out and spent 60k on a small electric grocery getter for local trips so I can save the planet and feel good about doing it. And keep a reliable gas powered truck for towing and long distance driving. The truck will have to be something newer so it's reliable so most likely will have payments on it.

Now, instead of the whole pipe dream idea of saving money on fuel and saving the planet etc, my vehicle costs have doubled. Two vehicles to insure. Two vehicles to make payments on. Two vehicles that require maintenance as even without the mechanical aspects of maintaining a gasoline powered vehicle, the electric still sits on tires. Last time I checked, those aren't free.

Back to the whole scenario in my last post highlighting a current weather event that closed the highway for 3 days so far. There's only one way around the section of highway along lake superior and a northern route. There is a goat trail twisty highway that joins the lakeshore route and the northern route but it's a 3.5 hr trek across and back to the nearest community where there's one lone charger. The next one is another 2.5 hrs west where the highway reconnects with the lakeshore route. That's in good weather. It usually takes 6.5 hrs to do that detour where the only charger on the route may or may not be working. Now the government is going to tell me that by 2035, I MUST switch to electric. That's a mandate. We saw how helpful the mask mandates were during the whole pandemic. And how all the mandates to shut all non essential businesses basically killed allot of small businesses. But they didn't care one bit because they were saving the planet and feeling good about it.

 

[NorthernRedneck]

And the whole idea of keeping your vehicle in a heated garage so it'll work in the winter. Many people don't have a garage. How's that going to work? And what about multiple vehicles families? We have 5 licensed and insured vehicles on the road between us and the kids. See the problem?

 

[NorthernRedneck]

That brings up another thing I've been wondering. So let's say hypothetically I went out and spent 60k on a small electric grocery getter for local trips so I can save the planet and feel good about doing it. And keep a reliable gas powered truck for towing and long distance driving. The truck will have to be something newer so it's reliable so most likely will have payments on it.

Now, instead of the whole pipe dream idea of saving money on fuel and saving the planet etc, my vehicle costs have doubled. Two vehicles to insure. Two vehicles to make payments on. Two vehicles that require maintenance as even without the mechanical aspects of maintaining a gasoline powered vehicle, the electric still sits on tires. Last time I checked, those aren't free.

Back to the whole scenario in my last post highlighting a current weather event that closed the highway for 3 days so far. There's only one way around the section of highway along lake superior and a northern route. There is a goat trail twisty highway that joins the lakeshore route and the northern route but it's a 3.5 hr trek across and back to the nearest community where there's one lone charger. The next one is another 2.5 hrs west where the highway reconnects with the lakeshore route. That's in good weather. It usually takes 6.5 hrs to do that detour where the only charger on the route may or may not be working. Now the government is going to tell me that by 2035, I MUST switch to electric. That's a mandate. We saw how helpful the mask mandates were during the whole pandemic. And how all the mandates to shut all non essential businesses basically killed allot of small businesses. But they didn't care one bit because they were saving the planet and feeling good about it.

Just to put it in perspective. We're on day 4 of that section of highway being closed. The second map shows the available chargers.

 

[Doc]

Very interesting thread. Good stuff guys.

The fellow said his trip to Saskatoon from Kelowna takes about 3 times longer for charging time (sitting time).

His charges today were about $100 and two hours of sitting with heaters on and the battery was only 2/3 charged.

So it takes a lot longer to charge in cold weather, so it costs more. Is it actually using more electricity to charge in the cold?

 

[chowderman]

both heating and a/c for the cabin sap battery power . . .
the "wasted" ICE energy, in the form of heat, is not so "wasted" in the cold, eh?

plus, a "cold" battery cannot charge as quickly as a "warm" battery
plus, if the battery is really cold - like having been at subfreezing overnight - the charging must first warm up the battery before it can even start to charge the battery . . .

and whether L1, L2 or L3 - dems da facts, the charger "strength" don't matter . . . it takes X minutes to warm the battery to a point it can accept a charge, and then internal circuitry prevents an L2/ L3 from "force feeding" a still chilled battery at its fastest - and a L1 charger can barely, if that, deliver enough power to warm the battery and heat the cabin.

https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/ev-charging-winter/

we have a two car attached garage - not "heated" - it's been getting down to single digits (F', minus teens C') and the garage is about 28'F - an L2 plugged in continuously would be required.
if we go out, not sure how long you can let an EV sit in the parking lot at single digits before it dies . . .

btw, these issues have been known since before EVs were sold. these facts are simply ignored by the pollyannas, because obviously ignoring facts makes them go away.
and the politicians don't have the problem - they use their government provided limos . . .

 

[mbsieg]

So after a bunch of research what I learned about the Teslas the way they produce heat when the heat pump will not keep up, they use the drive motors. Essentially they are applying the brakes on the vehicle (not actually the brakes. It's the only way I can think to explain it) they're basically pushing energy to the motor that's not driving the car. Ie power to all three phases but not letting the motor spin. Produces heat. This consumes large amounts of energy. And using coolant then to heat the battery. Yes, lithium batteries have to be above freezing before they will accept a charge. That seems to be what the big holdup was. Cold soaked batteries and not having chargers at your house.

Out of curiosity, the next cold snap we have, I'll park the lightning outside and plug it in and see how many KWH it takes to keep the battery warm overnight.

The interesting thing to look at here. If these people simply would have charged their car after they finished driving even at a DC charger, by the time they drove the next day until they needed energy, the battery would have been warm. As you are driving the battery the motors everything produces heat which then would have allowed the battery to take a charge faster.