Tucker starting problem

[Phil705]

My 1972 Tucker 543A has always started pretty easily, about the only did it did with any regularity. It is cold, but that has not been a problem in the past.

It seems to catch on the first crank, but won't stay running. Then no matter how long I crank or play with the choke, it won't catch. If I wait a few hours, the process repeats itself, almost catches on first crank, but won't stay running. I've tried starting fluid, worked yesterday, not today. Battery is good.

So, two questions fo you guys:

1. Any hints on starting this beast? How much throtte, when, etc.

2. If I need a new carburator, how would I describe it to a parts guy. The engine is an 8 cylinder Chrysler Industrial, model #LH318-664.

Any help appreciated!!

Phil Millam
Winthrop WA

 

[snowbird]

Some Tucker fans in this forum are likely going to be helpful.
I don't have a Tucker, but I'd check to see if the fuel pump and/or fuel filter (if it has one) are OK. I don't know if an automatic choke would cause it to flood that quickly, but if it starts after sitting a while that sounds like maybe it was flooded.

 

[mtntopper]

When it does not start after cranking a reasonable amount, pull a spark plug, ground the plug and re crank to confirm you have spark. If you have spark then fuel will most likely be the problem. Use a process of elimination to find the problem. Fuel, air and spark make a gas engine go round. this is just a start to begin to figure out the problem or call a qualified and experienced mechanic buddy to help...............

 

[tracknut]

I have a 1974 542 with the 318 and a carter bbd 2 barelle carb the fuel tank has a lot of silty looking powder in it .The carb float bowl will fill up with this thru 3 gas filters . It is so fine that it goes thru the filters like they arn't there. Mine has a hand coke it will start and die when it is pluged up. Mine is being rebiult becaus I coudn't get the gunk out of all the passages Good luck Jeff

 

[Phil705]

OK< thanks for the tips so far, but I need some more hints. I pulled a spark plug, and grounded it while cranking, and yes, I do have spark. And since I have pulled the air filter, I assume I have air. So it must be fuel.

I have not been good about keeping the fuel tank full, so water could be a problem, as the temps have been between -10 and +10 F. for about a week. I added some fuel additive, and tried some heat tape on the fuel line. Then I put some starting fluid in the carb, and cranked. It almost thought about catching, but no luck.

Any more ideas?

Phil Millam
Winthrop WA

 

[snowbird]

OSHA would probably throw me in jail, but I sometimes keep intermittently squirting carburetor cleaner into the carburetor (with the air cleaner off) and if that keeps the engine running while squirting the fluid, I'm pretty sure I've got a fuel supply problem.
They'd probably also fine me for taking the fuel line off at the carburetor and turning the engine over to see if gasoline is getting pumped to the carburetor. (This experiment is even easier if you've got an electric fuel pump).

 

[Phil705]

Ha, Snowbird, you are busted! I am secretly an OSHA investigator who monitors websites such as this, looking for guys who give out unsafe information! Since I am on a bounty system, this should be worth some real bucks.

Ok, so I will try both suggestions. I am beginning to suspect that it is the carb, but not sure yet.

Up yours, OSHA. And Thanks!

Phil
Winthrop WA

 

[Alaska Snow Cat]

If it's a lack of fuel problem, you should be able to tell without too much effort, by putting a small amount of gasoline in the carb and using some but not full choke. Not much gas is required as it is the vapors that ignite, not the fluid. You can also see if the accelerator pump is pumping fuel by looking in the carb as you work the throttle by hand. If it streams fuel into the carb then you know you are getting fuel delivered to the bowl of the carb.
It is possible you have too much fuel caused by a stuck float in the carb in which case you need to hold the throttle wide open, no choke, and see if it fires. If the float remains stuck open then you will have to pull the top off of the carb and investigate. Also if the temps are very cold it is easy to "frost" the plugs with cold unvaporized fuel and repeated choking and pumping of the throttle compounds the problem and cold fouls the engine. Heating the engine with space heater works or putting it in a shop is best. Of course you being a OSHA dude you realize any cranking of the engine or other "experiments" with the air cleaner off can lead to removal of you eye brows!
If you determine you are getting fuel to the carb but the accelerator pump isn't pumping then you probably have a stuck needle valve which again will require opening up the carb. Last tip on the carb is if you don't use the snowcat very often or it has set all summer it is highly likely the carb could benefit from being disassembled, cleaned and adjusted. If you don't feel comfortable doing that yourself then take it to a qualified carb repairman who will most likely be 45 years or older. Also old steel fuel tanks and or the crappy fuel the sell nowadays can cause all sorts of problems in your carb.
If you determine the carb is working properly I would then look at the ignition system closely. Just because you are getting spark does not insure you are getting it when you want it. Check the points for pitting and proper gap, rotor and cap for condition and any cracks. Check ignition timing by slowly rotating the engine by hand and watching to see the points just start to open at the proper degree before top dead center. This will be timed good enough until you get the engine running and can use a timing light.It is not uncommon to get spark when the plug is removed from the cylinder but to get no spark when installed, as it takes more voltage to jump the gap when under pressure during the compression stroke.
One item that will cause similar symptoms as you are describing is a bad ignition resistor, which were found on many industrial engines like yours. That is the white ceramic doodad mounted near your distributer if you have one. Most ignition systems that had one would bypass the resistor when the ignition switch is in the "start" mode allowing higher voltage during starting and then when the switch is in the "run" mode voltage is reduced by the resistor to prolong the life of the points. When the resistor is bad the engine will start and then die as soon as you stop cranking the engine. You can temporarily bypass the resistor for trouble shooting or to get you out of the woods but it won't take long to fry the points.
Hope this helps out.

 

[Snowcat Operations]

Keep a fire extinguisher handy.......

Sounds like a fuel issue. I would guess your fuel filter is full of crap.

 

[Phil705]

Great tips from all of you guys! Here is what I know or have done so far:

-Put in a new fuel filter. I have fuel to the filter.

-Put heat tape on the fuel line

-drained about a quart of fuel off the bottom of the tank

-Checked to ensure I have spark at the plugs

-took the top off the carb (gulp) and found that the bowl that contains the float is totally empty???? Blew out the fuel line between the filter and the carb. Air seems to pass, but haven't tried to see if fuel makes it into the carb bowl.

-Tried to fire it with both starting fluid and gas in the carb. No ignition.

Now if I can get the carb back together....

No I don't have a heated space, and I am off the grid, so the warming blanket is possible, but at the expense of lots of generator time.


Does any of this trouble shooting give you additional thoughts, or have I just muddled things.

The bad resistor or bad carb is making more sense.

Mucho Thanks

Phil in Winthrop

 

[alaska120]

The carb shouldn't have just taken a random crap. Usually, they build up to it. My experience in the past has been that first it won't idle. Then it won't have any power. Then it just craps out altogether.
I don't know about Chryslers, and correct me if I'm off, but if it has points in it they could be the culprit as well...

 

[srexecmark]

I have a neighbor with a Thiokol Sprite with a frozen water in his gas line. It has not gotten over 17 for two weeks here with temps below zero every night. Is it getting gas? My Tucker has a water separator, so I have not had this issue. So far mine has started fine.

 

[Catless]

Hi Phil705,

The good news is that you are starting to get to the bottom of your problem, the bad news is that you might have more than 1 problem!

The carb bowl should have certainly have had gasoline in it when you pulled the top of the carb off. Having said that, the engine should have run when you put about 1 tbls gas down the throat..........

Check your fuel pump. Water in the fuel could have destroyed the diaphram in the pump. Either use a proper tool (pressure gauge) to check it or do a shadetree thing using a container and a rubber hose from the filter(if after the pump) to your container. Route the hose higher than the carb. top. If fuel is delivered into container, proceed to check your float and needle valve in carb. Did the float swing freely when you pulled the carb. top off. The float has a tang that rides on the needle valve. Is the needle valve free or frozen?

My '69 Tucker (with a 318 industrial) has a very simple Stromberg WW single barrel carb on it that is very easy to re-build. Don't be intimidated by a carb re-build. If you have this carb, I have the re-build kit#. Please see the attached picture. Does this look like your carb?

I also attached a photo showing 2 possible fuel pumps for my 318 industrial. I have part #'s for at least one of these fuel pumps

grd

 

[srexecmark]

love the simplicity of this stuff. The former owner of my Tucker put a Holly off-road carb on mine. It has been dependable, but people quickly forget that these machines are not about horsepower, it is all about traction and gearing. The first vehicle I had was a 1953 Jeep M38-A1 that had a whopping 72 horsepower, but could climb a tree with it's 5:38 axles. Ok, forget it on the highway. The point is these cats only go 15 mph.

 

[Catless]

The ballast (ignition) resistor problem should be relatively easy to troubleshoot if you have a multimeter.

There are basically 2 types of ballast resistor systems (with several other derivatives). I will call the first type a 1-wire system and the other a 2-wire system.

The 1-wire system is what I have on my '69 Tucker. There is 1 wire that goes from the ign. side of the ign. switch almost directly to the ballast resistor (it actually goes directly to the voltage reg. and then on to the ballast resistor but this is a technicality). This system relys on the coil within the resistor to heat up which changes the voltage across the resistor. The voltage that could be measured on one side of the resistor would be nominal battery voltage while the voltage on the other side would be roughly the same or less on the other side (with a cold resistor). As the resistor heats up, the voltage on the "other" side "degrades" to about 8 volts. This keeps the ignition coil and the points from burning up. The engine needs close to battery voltage to start (not technically correct) but needs only about 8 volts to run properly. Actually, when the engine is started, the system voltage drops to about 9 volts because of the high current drawn by the starter motor. Once running, the ignition circuit is designed to run on about 8volts. There are plenty of articles that describe this on the internet. My '69 has this 1-wire system and has only one wire going to the (+) side of the ignition coil. The (-) side of the coil has 2 wires. One black one that goes to the distributor and 1 blue wire that runs to the tachometer. A failure of the ballast resistor in this case would probably prevent the engine from "catching" or running at all.

A 2-wire system is basically the same 'cept there would be a 2'nd wire run from another part of the starting circuit. This 2'nd wire would come from the start side of the START terminal on the ignition switch, the "back-side" of a push-button start switch, the starter solinoid, or from a remote-type "Ford" starter solenoid. In this case there would likely be 2 wires attached to the (+) side of the ignition coil. A failure of this type of system would cause the classic symptoms of the engine "catching" during the start cycle and then dieing in the run cycle.

I'm neither a mechanic nor an electrical engineer so please take all of this with due caution............

grd

 

[Catless]

Has this CAT run reliably this season at all?

There have been several posts that suggest all an "infernal conjestion" engine need to run is air/fuel/spark. This is true but the engine also needs to exhale. Related to air but not simply air intake.

Got Exhaust? 'Member the potato in the tailpipe thing?

Got mice? Got water in the "tailpipe" (that has since turned to ice)?


I once had a CJ5 that would not start in semi-cold or humid weather. Turned out to be a tired/standard ignition coil (25 k volt type). There are higher energy coils available today. Might 1 be in your future?

Points could have corroded over the summer. Cheap and easy fix.

I hope that helped. Please let us know what the culprit is/was!

grd

 

[fogtender]

Ha, Snowbird, you are busted! I am secretly an OSHA investigator who monitors websites such as this, looking for guys who give out unsafe information! Since I am on a bounty system, this should be worth some real bucks.

Well then you certainly don't want to know how I set the beads on a big truck tire with starting fluid....

Not knowing exactly what you are doing when it starts then dies, I can tell you a few of my ideas. You said you have no fuel in the float bowl... so pull the fuel line off from the carb and put the end into a pop bottle or can, have someone crank the engine to see if gas comes out, if it does, then you have a float needle stuck. If go gas comes out there, then you have either a plugged fuel line or bad fuel pump. If you can check the pressure on it, it should put about two to four pounds of pressure out of the line going to the carb.

IF you have no spark, is there a chance that because of the issues you may be having with fuel after cranking on the engine, you left the key in the "ON" position, if so, you may have burnt out the CDI, (or points) the coil (it can get pretty hot if the key is left on) or toasted the fuse to the ignition.

IF the engine is a dodge, the coil will have a resistor on it or on the firewall (white ceramic with two wires going in and out to the coil) to drop the volts to 6 volt when the engine is normally running and may have burnt out, but when you crank, the starter/relay has a bypass that allows it to start on 12 volt and then drops to 6 volts for running. You can bypass the resistor by just hooking the two wires together for a test, if it runs, then the resistor is bad.

Since I can't see it, I can only guess, but you may have a couple issues that popped up from the one you were working on to start with. When I had my shop, I would get a lot of multiple problems from the owner trying to fix it themselves....

 

[Phil705]

Thanks to all responders. I have to bail out and head for Seattle for the holidays, but will continue to troubleshoot when I get back.

Yes, I think I have a Stromberg WW carb too. I pulled it out, and it looks similar to the picture. Taking it to a shop for rework, although I agree that it is probably not the whole problem.

Fortunately, the snowmobile is working, so Santa can tow his presents out on the sled.

Ya'll have a good Christmas!

Phil705
Winthrop WA

 

[Phil705]

OK, I'm back from the holidays and working on my starting problem. I have the carb in for a rebuild, but I thought I'd try to see if the ignition resistor is bad in the meantime. I did locate a "ceramic thing", a ceramic bar about 3 inches in length, with two wires. I put the multi-meter across the terminals, and from the terminals to ground, and got gibberish. This is with the ignition switch on, but not cranking. There is also a black box (see picture attached, hopefully,) which shows 10-11 volts. Not sure if I have located the ignition resistor or where I should find voltage. This should be somewhere between the ignition switch and the coil, right? And what is the black box? It says "alternator equipped, do not cross poles" or something like that.

Do I need to be cranking to find the voltage? Any suggestions appreciated. As you can tell, I am no mechanic...

Phil Millam
Winthrop WA

 

[MNoutdoors RIP]

Phil, the ceramic thing is your resistor with your meter set on ohms from terminal to terminal you should get a reading if you don't then its burnt out
your black box is your voltage regulator for your charging system. it supplies your current to your field in your alternator the lower your battery the more it sends the the field. so that you make more juice to charge with.
with your battery fully charged you should have 12+ volts more like 13 or so
when you crank it will drop maybe to 10.5 or even 10 if when cranking it goes lower than that then. you could have a starter draging or other issues.

 

[Phil705]

Thanks Boogie! What kind of reading should I get using ohms? And should I have the ignition on and/or be cranking when taking the reading?

Thanks!

I was using DC volts before, hence the gibberish.

 

[Bulldog1401]

You can bypass the resistor by just hooking the two wires together for a test, if it runs, then the resistor is bad.

and then put good gas in a spray bottle, and mist the the carb opening with it while cranking. should run.

If not, how's the timing?

 

[fogtender]

This may help, unplug both wires, put the voltage tester on one or the other of the two wires to check for 12 volts with the key on, when you find one of them to be that wire, plug it back onto the resistor and put the voltage testor on the blade on the other end of the resistor and you should have six volts coming out of it. If nothing, then it is bad.

If no 12 volts, then you have issues farther up the wiring, if you have six volts and still no spark then the coil may be bad and you need to test it. let me know

 

[Catless]

Phil:

With the ignition off and both wires disconnected from the ballast resistor, you will read very close to 0.0 ohms with a COLD ballast resistor. I attached a pic showing the reading of a brand new ballast resistor. The photo shows the multi-meter reading 0.2 ohms but it was ranging from -0.2 to +0.2 if you watched the meter over a period of time.

A HOT ballast resistor should read 1.x ohms (after the engine has run a while). Please see my earlier post to see that the resistance of this resistor changes as it warms up. Please also see: http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Electrical/coil.htm for a description of how ballast resistors work. The first part of the discussion refers to 2-wire ballast resistor/starting curcuits and the "addition from Bob" describes the 1-wire type (which is what I have on my 69 Tucker).

The part# for a replacement ballast resistor is Car Quest #73070. If you don't have a Car Quest - have your parts guy cross reference an AC Delco PN D1111. These lit'l dudes cost about $7.00. Everybody should consider carrying a spare............

Hope that helped.

grd

 

[Phil705]

NOW what have I done??? I put in a rebuilt carb, got a new ignition resistor, put that in, and tried to start it. Turned the key on, went to push the starter button and noticed sparks and smoke from the starter button wiring. Now I have nothing, no headlights, no nothin'. What have I fried??? I did not have electrical problems before I started messing with the starting problem, and the only electrical thing I messed with was to put in the new ignition resistor. Could I have gotten the wires to the resistor backwards?

 

[fogtender]

NOW what have I done??? I put in a rebuilt carb, got a new ignition resistor, put that in, and tried to start it. Turned the key on, went to push the starter button and noticed sparks and smoke from the starter button wiring. Now I have nothing, no headlights, no nothin'. What have I fried??? I did not have electrical problems before I started messing with the starting problem, and the only electrical thing I messed with was to put in the new ignition resistor. Could I have gotten the wires to the resistor backwards?

No, it will work plugged in either way. You may have found your problem that you had to start with though. Check your wires to the started and out from the switch for any grounding or cut wires.

 

[Catless]

Yikes Phil705!

It sounds as if you are zeroing in on some of your problems. Darn. It's getting rougher. If your cat is like my '69 Tucker, there are precious few fuses to protect your electrical system.

These resistors are generally not polarity dependent but there are some that are. If polarity is an issue they will be clearly marked with a + on one terminal. The Car Quest 73070 is not polarity dependent.

The picture that you attached in your earlier post shows me that the + side of the ballast is on the left as it shows a wire coming from the voltage regulator (same as my '69). The right side probably goes straight to the ignition coil. Can you trace this right-hand wire? Does it go straight to the coil. Are there any other wires that splice into it or is there another wire that attaches to the coil where it does? If not, then you have a 1-wire system as I described earlier (same as mine).

You may have a fusible link on your cat that fried. I hope so. Mine has no such thing. I re-wired my cat a while back and put in a main fuse (along with several other fuses) to try to protect the wiring harness.

I have attached a few pictures from my cat (taken during my re-wire project). Don't be confused by the pic's as my Tucker is wierd and does not have a firewall (it's a forward control thing).

The first shows a resistor that looks identical to your's 'cept mine has a blob of solder fixing an unknown to me problem (by previous owner). The second pic shows the ignition coil. The red wire off the bottom comes directly from the ballast resistor. The upper terminal has a black wire that goes to the distributor and a blue wire that goes directly to the tachometer. The 3'rd pic shows the dash during the re-wire.

I hope you get your cat going.

grd

 

[fogtender]

I had a wire that caused some headache once where it goes from the dash to the engine compartment, the wires had chafted on the metal hole's edge and caused a shorting out of the wiring. Was a boogier to fine, but did by just tracing out the wires inch by inch....

 

[snowbird]

I for one would like to thank the forum members' super efforts to help Phil705 with the wiring problems.
You're sure a helpful group.

 

[Phil705]

Yes, you guys are fantastic! What a bunch of helpful guys. Now I just have to trouble shoot my wiring problem. I'll keep you posted on the progress.

thanks again! The least I can do is post a picture of the beast (when it was running). Got another 8 inches last night, total of about 30 here in North Central Washington state.

Phil Millam
Winthrop WA