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The President's Oval Office Speech

OkeeDon

New member
A few minutes ago, President Bush addressed the Nation from the oval office. From my point of view, the most important point raised in the speech was the acknowledgment that many disagree with his original decision to invade Iraq; for the first time, he did not attempt to label the dissenters as unpatriotic.

Instead, he reached out to me and the others like me who have never supported the initial decisions to go into Iraq. He asked that we set aside our disapproval of his initial policy and support the continued presence of troops instead of a "cut and run" policy.

I have consistently stated on this forum and elsewhere that I do support the troops, and I do not support the calls to "cut and run". My reason for this reluctant support is because at this point, I believe we will lose more by pulling out than we will by staying longer.

BUT! My God, what a terrible moral dilemma this man has foisted upon all of us.

Our fight is NOT to make a better life for Iraqi citizens, nor is it to create a Democracy. However laudable those goals may be, our fight is against terrorism and to defend our Nation. Nothing about the Iraqi action furthers those goals, Instead, as predicted by some before we invaded, our presence in Iraq has created MORE opportunity for terrorists to recruit and train more and more people against us. Our presence in Iraq has made the fight against terrorism more difficult, not easier.

Because the terrorists are getting stronger rather than weaker as long as we stay in Iraq, some people argue we should leave Iraq and go back to concentrating on the war against terrorists. At some point, I may agree with them, but not yet.

The President has put us in a position where the war on terrorism has been largely abandoned and American soldiers are being killed. for reasons that have nothing to do with our homeland security. But, more importantly, he has put us in a position where, if we DO pull out, the rest of the world will be able to make us look like the fools we have been. Our power and influence, which should be used to make the world a safer place, would be seriously eroded if we "cut and run".

I HATE this man for putting us in that position. I will NEVER forgive him, or give him ANY credit, even if something halfway decent comes out of this terrible situation. I resent that he has placed me in a position where I have to support his policy because it's the lesser of two evils.

And, I have to say, that position is changing daily, and there may come a point when I, also, think the better choice would be to leave Iraq.

In the meantime, I suspect he'll get what he wants. But, I just have to repeat myself, to me this is one of the darkest periods in our Nation's history, and the man should go down in infamy for ever putting us in this position in the first place.
 
Our fight is NOT to make a better life for Iraqi citizens, nor is it to create a Democracy. However laudable those goals may be, our fight is against terrorism and to defend our Nation. Nothing about the Iraqi action furthers those goals, Instead, as predicted by some before we invaded, our presence in Iraq has created MORE opportunity for terrorists to recruit and train more and more people against us. Our presence in Iraq has made the fight against terrorism more difficult, not easier.

Because the terrorists are getting stronger rather than weaker as long as we stay in Iraq, some people argue we should leave Iraq and go back to concentrating on the war against terrorists. At some point, I may agree with them, but not yet.>>>>>>>>> :confused:



Our fight is against terrorism, yet because we are there the terrorist are getting stonger, and training more people? I am very :confused:
 
Our greatest weapon in Iraq is planting the seed of democracy in the Islamic world beside getting rid of a tyrant that practiced genocide. This in the long term will make the world safer, weed out terrorist and be our biggest accomplishment in the Middle East.
 
I agree BD, but how can democracy work in a place that is made up of three distinct groups, and one of those groups has more than the other two put together? the larger group will win, the other groups will fight it. I truely do not expect democracy as we know it to ever work in Iraq. It is not that simple.
I also agree with Don, that we cannot cut and run now. Perhaps cut back our troops in some places but I expect we'll have a presence in Iraq for decades to come. I guess this will be the Bush legacy.
 
Doc said:
I agree BD, but how can democracy work in a place that is made up of three distinct groups, and one of those groups has more than the other two put together? the larger group will win, the other groups will fight it. I truely do not expect democracy as we know it to ever work in Iraq. It is not that simple.
I also agree with Don, that we cannot cut and run now. Perhaps cut back our troops in some places but I expect we'll have a presence in Iraq for decades to come. I guess this will be the Bush legacy.

I understand your statement on Iraq and I can agree somewhat. I will reinterate my statement was addressed toward the region not just Iraq. IMO, there is a bigger picture at work.
 
I think it's easier to take up the position that the invasion and subsequent conflict has been a big mistake and that the decision making process was flawed because of how it has all played out. Had it been the other way around and it worked out the way the Whitehouse hoped for then we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

IMHO...the single biggest flaw was not anticipating that the Iraqi people would have behaved the way they have. Oh, there was alot of noise and celebration about the downfall of Hussien but there was no national embracing of the opportunity to govern themselves. The mindset of that country's population has been molded and created over decades of life under a suppressionist regiem. Life was dictated not chosen. life and how it was lived was, and still is, based on fear. Everything that happens in that country, from wiping your butt to trying to support your family is based on fear not choice. Quite frankly, they don't know how to behave other than the way they are. They are literally having to be re-educated and re-taught virtually everything that has been the basis of thier existance. No-one trusts anyone and so there is no leadership. as a result they revert to the only thing they know....religous influences and territorial influences... That will not change overnight. Until something happens to wake them up and get them to work together, NOBODY, NO WHERE, NO HOW is gonna make it turn out the way most people thought it would in the beginning. I don't remember that restructuring the Iraqi culture was what anyone envisioned. I think it was felt that we would be in and out and stay to provide enough support to get them up and running. Had the Iraqi's played a bigger role in getting it back together it would be different.


The insurgents are using the divisions between the groups to thier advantage. When the Iraqi people get tired of thier own lying dead on the street all the time, maybe, just maybe they'll pull thier heads out of the sand and fight back and make a better life for themselves.

I have relatives and friends that are and were there. Two I know didn't come back. I believe we should have gone. I would have gone had I been able. I believe we need to be there.

Were all the right decisions made in making this all happen?.....No
Is it ONE man's fault......No
Do I see anyone else raising thier hands to take the job (Besides those we've already had a choice of and none of them were anything to write home about either)......NO

I recognize that the office does not relinquish you of your obligation to be accountable. It also shouldn't protect you from being called to the carpet if needed.

I'm sorry that, once again, the rest of the world, for the most part, would rather be a back seat driver.

Again, had things worked out the other way, the band wagon would have been to small for all those who would have wanted on.

It's obvious that the rest of the world only wants to come to the party. No one wants to help set it up or stay to clean it up.

I also think that bashing the president has become an excuse to avoid working on other issues here in our country. All I seem to see and hear is bashing and counter bashing.

One final thought......It has become a very selfish world we live in...:(
 
Cowboy, very well written and thought out post. :tiphat: :applause:
 
Cowboy,

I have to say well written. I would like to ad some to it but just can't right now. Too busy you know.


murph
 
Nice job Cowboy, nice to see that all Cowboy's are not just beef busters!!:D


A
icon4.gif
side note to no one in particular: Written and spoken words in and on a public stage about The President and Congressional members as well as Judicial personal in our Federal Gov. that are deemed potential red flag alerts such as "hate" should be avoided. While one may feel those things deeply and is a right that all may enjoy, please realize that it most assuredly has the potential to bring unwelcome scrutiny!!

Thanks for allowing me to say that!
Dean
 
Archdean said:
A
icon4.gif
side note to no one in particular: Written and spoken words in and on a public stage about The President and Congressional members as well as Judicial personal in our Federal Gov. that are deemed potential red flag alerts such as "hate" should be avoided. While one may feel those things deeply and is a right that all may enjoy, please realize that it most assuredly has the potential to bring unwelcome scrutiny!!
That could never happen so long as this is a free countr.......................................................................................................
 

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Funny post CA. The primary web server crashed. I'm investigating the cause ....IOW at this point I have no clue WTF happened.

Sorry guys!
 
Doc said:
Funny post CA. The primary web server crashed. I'm investigating the cause ....IOW at this point I have no clue WTF happened.

Sorry guys!

Well, it's nice to know that it wasn't me and that I can now go back and UNDO....:cry:.... all the stuff I've done the last two days in an attempt to correct a misconfiguration on my part that didn't really exist.......:pat:


Bob...disregard that message and thanks anyway.
 
Sorry about that Cowboy! Been there done that ...and I know it's no fun. :(

To figure out if our forum is down or the server is down I'll pass on a couple of the first things I check when having a problem.

Try the index FF page and try 'new posts'. If both fail there is a forum problem.

Next try www.dothq.com - if it fails we have a server issue and all domains are down. If it works the problem is with FF. Usually so far both have been down.

Next try another forum or google ...something to be sure your browser is working right. If the other page does not come up there might be a problem with your internet connection or with your pc. If the other sites other than FF come up then I have a problem with FF or our server.

Hope this helps a bit.
 
I have not posted in a while because I could not spare the productive time required to participate, but this thread bears comment. I have seen the Iraq issue beaten to death in the news media and by the political left. I see through the hype. There are those who choose to attempt to debate the Iraq issue with the left on “intellectual” ground. This is a waste of time because the left’s sole motive is to discredit George Bush in any way they can, even if it causes harm to our troops in the field and causes the Iraq conflict to last longer than necessary. The Islamist fascists throughout the world rejoice when they hear and read comments like this one from Okeedon:



OkeeDon said:
I HATE this man for putting us in that position. I will NEVER forgive him, or give him ANY credit, even if something halfway decent comes out of this terrible situation. I resent that he has placed me in a position where I have to support his policy because it's the lesser of two evils.









This comment is the epitome of the political left who despises George Bush and believes in the divine right of the left to rule America. All the rest of the “intellectual” discussion by these people is nothing more than fluff to fill in the spaces between voicing their hatred for one man who they believe is “illegitimate”. Why continue to humor these people? Their intent is crystal clear, and I have zero respect for any person who through their words and or actions, provides aid and comfort to the Islamist fascists who wish to do America harm, and would delight in the death of any American; including the “useful idiots” who indirectly support them.



Strong words? Sure, but these words are reality and I refuse to stick my head in the sand and continue the useless debate providing the political left with a means to vent their hatred for George Bush. They have placed themselves in such a position that for them to regain political power, America must lose. Truly pathetic.



This thread is not about whether or not we should be in Iraq. It is about one mans hatred of George Bush and the lefts inability to overcome the loss of the 2000 political election.
 
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Cityboy said:
In response to OkeeDon . . . .the epitome of the political left who despises George Bush and believes in the divine right of the left to rule America. All the rest of the “intellectual” discussion by these people is nothing more than fluff to fill in the spaces between voicing their hatred for one man who they believe is “illegitimate”. Why continue to humor these people? Their intent is crystal clear, and I have zero respect for any person who through their words and or actions, provides aid and comfort to the Islamist fascists who wish to do America harm, and would delight in the death of any American; including the “useful idiots” who indirectly support them.

. . . I refuse to stick my head in the sand and continue the useless debate providing the political left with a means to vent their hatred for George Bush. They have placed themselves in such a position that for them to regain political power, America must lose. Truly pathetic.



Cityboy, you make some excellent points that really ring true in ALL debates with the political left. I gave up a debate on "gun rights" simply because the debate was so one sided that it became silly. I presented facts. The 'left' asked for compromise based on a media untruth. I re-presented facts. The 'left' said I was being unreasonable because I refused to compromise. I asked why I would compromise when facts were on my side. The answer from the 'left' was because we should meet in the middle on any reasonable issue. . . HUH? He was using a lie to ask me to give up my rights and then asking me to be reasonable? This is, unfortunately how the left often debates many issues. They take a superior view of themselves and ignore the facts, often substituting feel good emotions into their arguements.

Well here is another fact. Scotland is the most dangerous developed nation in the world and also has one of the strictest sets of gun (anti-gun) laws.

Your post points out that the left is disingenuous on so many topics that they really deserve to be pitied.

Thank you for what you wrote. :applause:
 
Welcome back CityBoy!!!! Glad to see you posting again, and you got your point across in a way that obides by FF rules. Nicely Done!!!!! 4 stars!!!!!!!!!
 
Well written CB, I have no problem with the criticism of the left other than it's really easy to sit back and criticize. What's discouraging is it continues with no suggestion or thoughts of which they would handle it or improve the situation.

The left has a long road to hoe and they're only way to do it is to discredit the administration. They have lost so much ground! I'll be very interested in what platforms and agendas they embrace in the future because they definitely lack fresh ideas.

Listen to Air America sometime, it's depressing and rarely do they outline any strategies for the future.
 
B_Skurka said:
Well here is another fact. Scotland is the most dangerous developed nation in the world and also has one of the strictest sets of gun (anti-gun) laws.

Bob,

I see you read your AR this month!
 
Doc said:
Welcome back CityBoy!!!! Glad to see you posting again, and you got your point across in a way that obides by FF rules. Nicely Done!!!!! 4 stars!!!!!!!!!
Doc, sorry, I totally disagree with you. CityBoy made a pretty speech in which he claimed to be able to describe and explain my motives. He was absolutely wrong, completely off base, and I considered his trying to play God as offensive.
 
B_Skurka said:
Well here is another fact. Scotland is the most dangerous developed nation in the world and also has one of the strictest sets of gun (anti-gun) laws.
Please supply a reference to establish that "fact". I don't believe it, and have found some very good material that will likely refute it, but first, I have to have some idea of what figures were used to produce this claim. It's not a fact unless there is believeable evidence.
 
OkeeDon said:
Doc, sorry, I totally disagree with you. CityBoy made a pretty speech in which he claimed to be able to describe and explain my motives. He was absolutely wrong, completely off base, and I considered his trying to play God as offensive.

Well hell, I'm shocked!!!

Dean
 
Archdean said:
Well hell, I'm shocked!!!
You should be, Mr. Smartass. Here's a partial quote from CityBoy's post:

"This thread is not about ............................. It is about one mans .................."

Now, I'm the one man he's referring to. I think I should probably know what the thread is about, because I started it. I think I know better than some person who thinks he's God and can read my mind says the thread is about. I think I know better than an obviously prejudiced person who is trying to twist my words.

Think about this, Mr. Oh-so-sarcastic, I've never tried to tell anyone else what they were really thinking. If I did, you'd be one of the first ones to yell "Foul!" Are there two standards on this forum? If you're a conservative you can say any outlandish thing you can think of, and a bunch of sheep will chime in, saying, "Me too! Me too!", but if you are progressive, some conservative automatically gets to redefine what you say?

That's a bunch of crap, and it was statements like that which chased me away, once. If that's your goal, to chase me away, then, Congratulations! You're getting pretty close. I'll discuss anything with reasonable people, but when someone starts trying to put words in my mouth, and tell me what I really think, I don't have the time of day for them.

And, when someone else, like all the people who agreed with CityBoy, do so without thinking about what he was REALLY doing, I get really pissed off.

So, back off.

 
OkeeDon said:
Please supply a reference to establish that "fact". I don't believe it, and have found some very good material that will likely refute it, but first, I have to have some idea of what figures were used to produce this claim. It's not a fact unless there is believeable evidence.

Don, I could take the easy way out and simply provide you with a 1 paragraph article from the NRA, but instead, how about an article from the Times in London? It cites a UN report.
Scotland tops list of world's most violent countries
By Katrina Tweedie
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A UNITED Nations report has labelled Scotland the most violent country in the developed world, with people three times more likely to be assaulted than in America. England and Wales recorded the second highest number of violent assaults while Northern Ireland recorded the fewest.

The study, based on telephone interviews with victims of crime in 21 countries, found that more than 2,000 Scots were attacked every week, almost ten times the official police figures. They include non-sexual crimes of violence and serious assaults.

Violent crime has doubled in Scotland over the past 20 years and levels, per head of population, are now comparable with cities such as Rio de Janeiro, Johannesburg and Tbilisi.

The attacks have been fuelled by a “booze and blades” culture in the west of Scotland which has claimed more than 160 lives over the past five years. Since January there have been 13 murders, 145 attempted murders and 1,100 serious assaults involving knives in the west of Scotland. The problem is made worse by sectarian violence, with hospitals reporting higher admissions following Old Firm matches.

David Ritchie, an accident and emergency consultant at Glasgow’s Victoria Infirmary, said that the figures were a national disgrace. “I am embarrassed as a Scot that we are seeing this level of violence. Politicians must do something about this problem. This is a serious public health issue. Violence is a cancer in this part of the world,” he said.

Detective Chief Superintendent John Carnochan, head of the Strathclyde Police’s violence reduction unit, said the problem was chronic and restricting access to drink and limiting the sale of knives would at least reduce the problem.

The study, by the UN’s crime research institute, found that 3 per cent of Scots had been victims of assault compared with 1.2 per cent in America and just 0.1 per cent in Japan, 0.2 per cent in Italy and 0.8 per cent in Austria. In England and Wales the figure was 2.8 per cent.

Scotland was eighth for total crime, 13th for property crime, 12th for robbery and 14th for sexual assault. New Zealand had the most property crimes and sexual assaults, while Poland had the most robberies.

Chief Constable Peter Wilson, president of the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland, questioned the figures. “It must be near impossible to compare assault figures from one country to the next based on phone calls,” he said.

“We have been doing extensive research into violent crime in Scotland for some years now and this has shown that in the vast majority of cases, victims of violent crime are known to each other. We do accept, however, that, despite your chances of being a victim of assault being low in Scotland, a problem does exist.”

 
Whatever happened to Bush's notorious talent for bring both Democrats and Republicans together while he was governor of Texas? I thought that was one of his strengths, which he enjoyed. What happened????@#$?@$???

I figured he really understood in that being an effective LEADER you have to move both sides of the aisle.
 
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OregonAlex said:
Whatever happened to Bush's notorious talent for bring both Democrats and Republicans together while he was governor of Texas? I thought that was one of his strengths, which he enjoyed. What happened????@#$?@$???
Alex-
You might be confusing reality with what was on Bush's resume. :whistle:
Bonehead
 
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