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The perfect personal Snowcat???

BigAl

BigAl

Gone But Not Forgotten
We all have been down this road in Cat discussions before . Now I want to make a twist or two .

Whats makes the Perfect "Personal size and use Snowcat" Based on ??

Based on these rules :
1 Must be able to be trailered on highway legally with tracks installed .8'6" max.
2 Must be able to be pulled by a pickup or SUV
3 No custom options! ( As it came from the factory)
4 No front blades
5 Best climbing ability
6 Best "in soft snow " ability
7 best oversnow speed
8 number of passengers
9 Storage
10 enconomy to use

I do not know all the brands so I won't make this a poll . Just give your honest opinion based on your own thoughts .

A Kristi KT7 cannot be considered as it never made production but I would like to think a Kristi KT3 would be in the running .
Based on :

5 passengers
Good storage use
Easy towable
very good economy
good top speed
good gearing for various conditions
able to navigate tight areas
climbing ability
The sad part is we have very few running Kristi KT3's to pull information from . Lyndon has told us of his observations in past post , And Mike had a running one , Now Bob P . is running as is Flathorn .

Who and why is the best for all around use ?
 
:idea: How come I read this and immediatly envisioned a sno trac vs kristi pissing match coming on..........:smileywac

If so, lets bring it on............I always enjoy a good laugh!:yum:
 
BigAl said:
Based on these rules :
1 Must be able to be trailered on highway legally with tracks installed .8'6" max.
2 Must be able to be pulled by a pickup or SUV
3 No custom options! ( As it came from the factory)
4 No front blades
5 Best climbing ability
6 Best "in soft snow " ability
7 best oversnow speed
8 number of passengers
9 Storage
10 enconomy to use
Click to expand...
1. Snow Trac, 6'2" wide, 12' long, easily fits on a standard car carrier type trailer. Tucker Kitten is smaller and easier to tow. Tucker 322 also fits on a standard trailer. Kristi and Bombi are similar in length, but wider and require bed-over-wheels trailers.
2. Snow Trac, about 2600#, easily towed by a vehicle with a 4500# tow capacity. Tucker Kitten is lighter; Tucker 322 is similar to the Snow Trac in weight. Kristi KT2 and KT3 are also light and easy to tow.
5. Snow Trac seems to climb very well, I've come up steep river banks without any problems
6. Snow Trac is OK in soft snow, but I won't claim it is the best. Video of the Tuckers shows them to be great in soft snow.
7. Snow Trac will run about 20mph, not too bad. But some other brands will do roughly the same.
8. Snow Trac holds 7 passengers + a modest amount of gear (inside). Kristi max passenger capacity is 5. Tucker 322 holds 4 to 5.
9. Snow Trac has plenty of storage on the two outside rails in addition to the inside storage
10. Snow Trac or Kristi KT2/3 -- Tough to beat a VW engine for economy

Overall, I'd say it is hard to beat a Snow Trac. It's not the best in every category but its darn good in all of them and best in several of them, especially passenger cabin layout, size, storage and overall economy. It is military proven and was also adapted for and successfully used commercially which proves its capability, versatility and economy.
 
Snow Master would be most likely the best choice.
2800 lbs.
7 passenger (yes I have had 7 adults in my Snow Master).
can be towed by any SUV or 1/2 ton and up truck.
VW engine doesnt get any more economical than that.
plenty of storage space.
.36 psi Yah it floats in DEEP powder!
14 MPH top speed as is from factory but can swap in snow trac sprockets for 25mph+.


I also like the Imp and Super Imp. Needs wider tracks for the real deep stuff but for most people the WT version will work just fine. Good power and speed. Easy to tow (3600 lbs)
 
groomerguyNWO said:
:idea: How come I read this and immediatly envisioned a sno trac vs kristi pissing match coming on..........:smileywac

If so, lets bring it on............I always enjoy a good laugh!:yum:
Click to expand...


If it happens it won't come from me . I really am interested in this one . I get asked this question a lot by snowcat wannabes . Snow Master may very well be the top one out there ,but they are as rare as the Kristi KT3 to find . There is only about 190 KT3's total from what I have been told .How many Masters were built ??
 
There are currently more ST4's operating, World Wide than the Total number of Krusti's ever produced! And 90% of those don't run today. They truely were a "Weird Novelty" that didn't make it. The last time I ever saw a Kristi actually operate was in 1966 or 67. I never did get mine to run, where as all 10 of my Snow Tracs and 3 of my 4 Snow Masters are all still operational.
If people are like their pets, and Snow Cat owners are like their machines, then we won't be hearing much from the Krusti Klub as they pass on.
 
Com On Lyndon .
Tell us how you really feel about Kristis . Don't hold back :yum: :pat: .I finally try to write a honest to goodness straight post and this is the thanks I get .:snow2_smi: ........you Kristi basher
 
Snowcat Operations said:
800 to 1,000. Need to review the build data sheet.
Click to expand...
Mike . . . I think your numbers are a little optimistic. There were roughly 2300 total Snow Tracs, Trac Masters and Snow Masters produced. The Snow Trac was far more popular than the Trac/Snow Masters. Based on the information I posted here: http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showthread.php?t=2198 which seems to be very close to accurate but may not include all the Scottish built units, shows that there are (if I added correctly) 495 Trac Masters and Snow Masters built.

For those who are curious, the Trac Master is very similar to the Snow Master, it is just an earlier version. The biggest external distinguishing factor between the two models is the Snow Master had two large wheels and the Trac Master had only one, similar to the early Snow Tracs.


BigAl . . . in fairness to the Kristi units, their spec sheets show they are very capable on both deep snow and on steep slopes. If I recall correctly, they claim to be able to climb a slightly steeper grade than the Snow Trac?

However in terms of production numbers, and running units, Lyndon is probably very close to accurate with his comments about Kristis.

I am aware of only 1 Kristi KT4 that is in running condition, but have hear rumors of 2 of them. I think there were a total of 18 produced. There are quite a few KT2 and KT3 units (in a relative sense) out there that are running, but if only 10% of the Snow Tracs ever built are still running, it would equal a number that is greater than the grand total of the KT3s ever built.

I have heard that there are roughly 70% of all the Snow Tracs ever built still in some form of running condition. I have no way of knowing if that is true or not, however as dead simple as the Snow Trac is, about the only thing that can kill one of these things is to bust the Variator housing. Even destroying the frame, as critical as that is, does not mean the unit is a total loss, as the frame is simple box steel. But the simple chain drive, easy to get engine parts, and use of surplus parts and aluminum body panels really makes the Snow Trac a machine that is easy to keep running.

Going back to your ORIGINAL POST on the perfect snowcat, I would add a couple other criteria to your list.
  • It should be able to fit into a standard home garage (8' wide door, 7' tall) or at least a standard oversized door (9' wide by 8' tall)
  • It should have the passengers and the operator in the same cabin, not in 2 separate cabins
  • It should fit on a standard car lift (or at least a lift that can lift a Pick Up or SUV)
 
Yes it does look like a Snow Master would be hard to beat in overall test . I would like to see one perform along side 2 or 3 other brands . Maybe this winter I hope . Is a SnowMaster over 8'6" wide ? If it is, than it is out of the running. No way it will fit on a car lift . Too Wide and so a KT3 would not fit also on a car lift .
Since a KT4 is just about as rare as my KT7 ,I seriously doubt it could even be remotely considered in a stock version .
 
Snow Master 8'6" wide. How many people have a car lift? I think there are more Kristi owners out there than people who have a car lift in there garage.
 
Mike, off the top of my head I can probably come up with at least a half dozen ForumsForums members who have car lifts (myself included). If I peek in the windows I can probably find more!
 
How many people have tried driving an 8'6" item through a 9' wide garage door??? I have two 9' wide doors on my new house, the doors are about 8'10" wide I do not feel very comfortable going in with only 4" to spare. As for car lifts I have had one in my garage and will again very soon.. I think the ideal cat would be 7-8' wide, 12-16' long, Less than 7' high, (to aid in trailering) It should be 50-75hp Gas or Turbo diesel, Hydro, Have a good heater and good insulation. Lots of windows, With good views. 20-25mph WOT is fast enough in snow, a nice cruising speed of 10-15mph would be great. AND most important PARTS AVAILABILITY!!!!! Use as many generic parts as possible to keep costs low and be able to go to local Napa to get parts... Now who can tell me the cat I described???? I do not think they make it????:pat:
 
A 50 HP motor on a hydrostatic system is like having a 25 HP engine. So even if you have a 100 HP motor its like 50 HP.


AND BOB you were told once already about peeking into peoples windows!
 
mbsieg said:
I think the ideal cat would be 7-8' wide, 12-16' long, Less than 7' high, (to aid in trailering) It should be 50-75hp Gas or Turbo diesel, Hydro, Have a good heater and good insulation. Lots of windows, With good views. 20-25mph WOT is fast enough in snow, a nice cruising speed of 10-15mph would be great. AND most important PARTS AVAILABILITY!!!!! Use as many generic parts as possible to keep costs low and be able to go to local Napa to get parts... Now who can tell me the cat I described???? I do not think they make it????:pat:
Click to expand...

Sounds like a KT7 ,though I do not know its true top speed .
Yes you can get many parts at Napa . Just ask the NAPA owner who is driving the new Caddie I paid for :snow2_smi: .
 
Its not a dumb system just not as effecient as standard type drive systems. But never the less they are not that effeceint. The #1 reason though is you can pretty much turn on a ddime so they have better manuverability. Take up less space I believe or are easier to design a chassis for. They have there advantages. BUT from experience I can tell you. #1 When you have a problem YOU HAVE A PROBLEM that you most likely wont beable to fix in the field! The tools requiered to worki on them is exotic and pricey. If you have to replace a unit you are looking at $5,000 to $10,000 per unit. Takes specialized training to work on them. NOT ECONOMICAL. So after you get your panties situated correctly go have a cold beer.
 
Hell just ask BigAl who has his in the garage! He just has the lines run wrong (in my opinion). One little thing wrong and they wont work. Plus if one goes out (2 in a system) then your cat swings to the side that goes dead with no warning. So if your going 15 mph or 20 mph and lets say your right side goes out then you speed off to the right in one hell of a neck splitting turn. And if your on the side of a mountain trail you are suddenly facing the absolute wrong side of the mountain with a 2,000 foot drop off. I know it happened to me and that unit was bad.
 
mbsieg said:
So then why are all the Dumb snow cat company's making their inferior snowcats with hydrostatic drive?????:smileywac
Click to expand...



Like I said the systems are not inferior and do have some incredable advantages. BUT who will you have work on your hydrostatic drives? "The factory". If a unit goes bad on your 180K machine who are you going to have fix it? (garaunteed it will be out of warranty) "The Factory" How much with they charge? "ALOT". If your farther away from a dealer and you are lucky you may beable to find some one like BOGGIE whos company actually knows how to work on a hydrostatic drive system. Lets ask him how much a modern day Camoplast Hydro unit cost to completely rebuild and replace from start to finish. How much do the specialized tools cost? ect ect. I believe hydrostatic drives our beyond most personal user capabilities to work on. We are lucky here and have some very knowlegable people who are in this industry here on the forums but for your avarage Bob / Joe / Mike who ever NO WAY. I can garauntee you that if BigAl had a standard mechanical drive system his KT-7 would have been blazing trails last winter!
 
Seems to me we are a little off topic here for the ORIGINAL QUESTION posed about a PERSONAL snowcat.

Economy of operation was one of BigAl's criteria. That alone knocks out hydraulic drive systems. They are expensive. Yes, they have some serious advantages in being able to turn within their own length. But they do require hydraulic pumps and they eat horsepower. Both of which add to cost.
 
Good Day Boys............ Wow go to bed a look at all the fun you miss out on.
not sure I want enter the arena. Your both right in your meathods of desire
it really depends on what the machine is to be used for. sometimes hydrostatic is better sometimes the simple mechanical is a better choice.
 
Snowcat Operations said:
A 50 HP motor on a hydrostatic system is like having a 25 HP engine. So even if you have a 100 HP motor its like 50 HP.


AND BOB you were told once already about peeking into peoples windows!
Click to expand...
Alot of people come to this forum for FACTS when a claim as this one is made, one should be able to back it up with numbers. Boggies spreadsheet already states that you will not loose half your horsepower using a hydro unit. I am not stating that hydro units are the only way to go, But in my opinion it is a very good user friendly option. With correct maintenance and no abuse it is a very reliable option that has proven itself in tractors, skid steers, mowers, ect. Gear drive units also do break down, steering bands break. All mechanical things break. The older the machine is the more possibility it will break down. Yes new machines break also but just like buying a new car they are less likely. So in the end I should have put Just my opinion At the end of my first post...... Sorry I did not try to cause a pissing match.
 
We should all understand that there is a big different in the types of hydro drives.

A hydraulic drive (as found on many modern groomers) is exponentially different than a hydrostatic drive (like on many compact utility tractors, skid steers, etc).

Further when dealing with the various drives there are the brake steer models and then there are the fully hydraulic steer models. They also have vastly different characteristics and capabilities in turning radius, power consumption, etc.

So for those who want to discuss the merits of a particular drive system, I think it makes sense to fully describe the TYPE of drive in detail. Many of us backyard wanna-be mechanics can be easily confused by the SIMILAR terminology that is used to describe dramatically different drive systems. I think we need to be careful in what we are actually describing. Just because hydraulics are PART of the system does not make the systems similar. JMO
 
Snowcat Operations said:
If a unit goes bad on your 180K machine who are you going to have fix it?
Click to expand...


HOLY CRAP!!! I just found out my KT7 is worth $180 ,000???!!!WhupPEE !

OK ... hears the deal .... I willing to let it go at a lost ... for... lets say $179K .:yum: Right now I would be a real happy camper if I had a gear drive in Yetti . At least ,with my simple mind, I could figure out whats wrong with it . That may change if the hydro guys get the KT7 running correctly and I beat Mouse Ear in a test .
So lets see here .....???? So far were talking SnowTracs and Kristi's . Anything else out there that might be considered . What about a Pimp ??
 
My "pimp" is approx 6 feet wide. Will fit on a standard landscape/car trailer. Weighs approx 3600 lbs.

It is a little heavy footed, at, I believe approx a little under 1 psi, but does well none the less.

Ford drive train with exception of the clark bulldozer rearend.

Big cargo space on the flatbed.

My friends 1404 has a full cab that seats 5.

If they were good looking enough, I would let 2 gals set on my lap in the back to make seven passenger capacity....:boobies:

So, the Imp is not perfect, but is affordable, pretty capable, and definately has its place in the line up.
 
BigAl said:
Yes it does look like a Snow Master would be hard to beat in overall test . I would like to see one perform along side 2 or 3 other brands . Maybe this winter I hope . Is a SnowMaster over 8'6" wide ?
Click to expand...
Actually a Snow Master is 8' 6&3/8" wide, making it Illeagle or technically a "Wide Load" requiring pappers to transport. However it's only 3/8 of an inch and so far no Cop has ever stoped me and measured it. The Snow master is so wild looking that I towed one on a trailer from Washington thru Canada to Alaska, back thru Canada to Washington, on thru Oregon to Idaho with a plate on the trailer that had been expired for 13 YEARS and no one noticed! The Truck plate was also expired by one year and all the cops, and border patrol looked at was the Snow Master!
 
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