I went by a friends car repair shop and borrowed his scope and if weather cooperates, I will drain and view tomorrow. Or at least on Sunday as the sun is supposed to show up again... Like the politician that said "Of course you can go to the sun. You just have to go at night..." And no, not the one that thought Guam would roll over if too many people were on one side.
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OC-4 transmission disabled and wonder why
- Thread starter SOS RANCH
- Start date
OK... Lift off. I borrowed a scope from a mechanic friend and checked it out. No issues could be seen. So I tried to shift and shifted from first to neutral with no issues, slid back and forth easily, the went to the left (from the rear) and shifted into third with no issues, since the leverage is wrong on the little shifting post, I had to bang a bit with my hand to do this but that is understandable given it has not been shifted in years. Then I was able to put it back in first again with no issues.
So, it appears that all is well. Yay. I have to change the water pump first (I have a new one, have removed the alternator for access, and just need to get gasket sealer and remove the old one to install the new one, add fluids, and then it is drivable so I can check out the different rear gears.
I removed the shifting shaft so I can take it home ( the cat is still at the previous owners place.. he has lots of experience working on heavy equipment and such, but he never noticed the transmission in the rear nor the shifting shaft) and clean it all up and change the grease fitting if needed.
Whew. Thanks. More to come as I move forward. Thank you all for the encouragement and for the expertise you offer!! This has been fun... Now, redsqwrl, you can have a nice weekend knowing you were right !! ;o)
So, it appears that all is well. Yay. I have to change the water pump first (I have a new one, have removed the alternator for access, and just need to get gasket sealer and remove the old one to install the new one, add fluids, and then it is drivable so I can check out the different rear gears.
I removed the shifting shaft so I can take it home ( the cat is still at the previous owners place.. he has lots of experience working on heavy equipment and such, but he never noticed the transmission in the rear nor the shifting shaft) and clean it all up and change the grease fitting if needed.
Whew. Thanks. More to come as I move forward. Thank you all for the encouragement and for the expertise you offer!! This has been fun... Now, redsqwrl, you can have a nice weekend knowing you were right !! ;o)
I love reading this post, brings back memories of "wtf have I got myself into"! I would agree...shift it by hand back at the rear. You'll know soon enough if it no-workie in other gears. I was major stumped at first when all I had was 12 reverse gears and only one forward gear...and that only when putting the front tranny in reverse. All because the carrier had been installed 180° rotated. A 'relatively' easy fix, just cost a few gaskets and seals and a bunch of my free labor.
You'll figure it out. Quite a mystery why the PO removed the shifter in the first place.
You'll figure it out. Quite a mystery why the PO removed the shifter in the first place.
My guess on that is that it was used to transport search and rescue personnel and they did not want it driven except in rear-low gear. Passenger seats in back are fitted with seatbelts for 6 people. Also, the shifter also blocks access to the back passenger area from the front (but it has a nice back door and this may not be part of the decision to remove). There is also a roof access opening in this rear passenger area.. not sure what that was for.
As far as I can figure, the Truckee folks at Lake Tahoe had it 2 owners before me. A fellow bought it for driving to his resort (a few miles from me and it is about 4 miles from the parking lot to the resort over a non-plowed road.. about 6 feet of snow on it right now) but it went too slow for him so he sold it to the guy I bought it from. Neither of these two people knew it had a transmission in the back. They never removed the cowling up front to see the shaft and area of the shifter that was missing and when they removed the walkway panel to access the battery they may have seen the shaft but had no idea what it was since they did not take the walkway panel off that is over the OC-4 rear end.
I was aware that these had a transmission in the rear as I saw photos of others with 2 shifters. One guy I emailed early on to find out more about these asked me "where is the other shifter?" I thought that this was a model that did not have the rear transmission but when I took the cover off to view the front transmission (and because I was curious about how this thing works and have an inquiring mind) and I then saw the square area with the pivot pins in place, the ball on the shaft below, and then tracing it back the the rear end I saw the shift shaft exiting and connecting with a rod that turned out to be the shift rod from the front.
I thought "Cool!! This has a rear transmission and I gotta check it out..." And here we finally are: She works !!
Needless to say, I am Stoked!!
As far as I can figure, the Truckee folks at Lake Tahoe had it 2 owners before me. A fellow bought it for driving to his resort (a few miles from me and it is about 4 miles from the parking lot to the resort over a non-plowed road.. about 6 feet of snow on it right now) but it went too slow for him so he sold it to the guy I bought it from. Neither of these two people knew it had a transmission in the back. They never removed the cowling up front to see the shaft and area of the shifter that was missing and when they removed the walkway panel to access the battery they may have seen the shaft but had no idea what it was since they did not take the walkway panel off that is over the OC-4 rear end.
I was aware that these had a transmission in the rear as I saw photos of others with 2 shifters. One guy I emailed early on to find out more about these asked me "where is the other shifter?" I thought that this was a model that did not have the rear transmission but when I took the cover off to view the front transmission (and because I was curious about how this thing works and have an inquiring mind) and I then saw the square area with the pivot pins in place, the ball on the shaft below, and then tracing it back the the rear end I saw the shift shaft exiting and connecting with a rod that turned out to be the shift rod from the front.
I thought "Cool!! This has a rear transmission and I gotta check it out..." And here we finally are: She works !!
Needless to say, I am Stoked!!
My first snowcat was an Imp. When I got it I was caught up on how to use the 13 forward and 7 backward gear combinations. Then someone provided some good advice. First, to keep the rear transmission healthy, only shift it when the cat is completely stopped. Second, think about what power or speed you are going to need in the next bit. Put the rear in that gear and on non-uphill grades drive it like a 3 speed with the front transmission. When I asked about shifting going uphill, they laughed and said it was not always possible.
Only used that Imp a few months and never drove it very far before it torqued itself. The Imp came without a rear pillow block, and I didn't notice in time. The Colorado dealer who sold me that Imp said on the phone it had been thoroughly gone over and fully serviced, but denied saying that afterwards. I should have known better when the bill of sales came marked "as is". Lesson learned!
Only used that Imp a few months and never drove it very far before it torqued itself. The Imp came without a rear pillow block, and I didn't notice in time. The Colorado dealer who sold me that Imp said on the phone it had been thoroughly gone over and fully serviced, but denied saying that afterwards. I should have known better when the bill of sales came marked "as is". Lesson learned!
No rear pillow block? That's insane. Surprised you were able to use it for even a couple runs. That's a shame, could have been easily rectified.
I would be stoked too if I were you! Sounds like you have the shifter assembly located, but in the meantime just select whatever gear suits your needs and leave it there. Not speaking from oodles of experience yet since I'm still in the restoration process and have only ran mine twice last winter to plow 2" of snow off my driveway (because I could!). I have the C4 in 2nd gear and with the front in 1st she just putts along nice and docile. Next winter at the cabin I'll have to see what gears I need to use...most likely 2nd or 3rd in the rear.
The the guys that removed the shift assembly...huh, they should be shot. To disable, would have been easier to just uncouple the shift shaft back at the rear end.
Whoot, whoot glad the breeze is in your sail.
Ok sos. Im a teacher. So you have home work.
A) hit thumb with hammer
B) particle of wood in eye, under eylid
C) no favorite beverage for three days
D) rub the wifes back
All reminders for you that murphy (of murphys law) was an optomist. (And we, u and i) are smarter than that.
Im an idiot but my special skill is getting another 50hrs of operation out of anything, and i can do it with a giant pile of nothing. (Giggle giggle here)
Anyone that can direct shift a old mack can clutch shift an imp. I have a short video of my son shifting his snowcat at speed with a load of people when he gets it right its pretty neat. When he misses the shift his occupants eat what ever is in front of them. Ill find that video. His cat is an A model spryte. (Your drivetrain minus the 3spd)
Ok sos. Im a teacher. So you have home work.
A) hit thumb with hammer
B) particle of wood in eye, under eylid
C) no favorite beverage for three days
D) rub the wifes back
All reminders for you that murphy (of murphys law) was an optomist. (And we, u and i) are smarter than that.
Im an idiot but my special skill is getting another 50hrs of operation out of anything, and i can do it with a giant pile of nothing. (Giggle giggle here)
Anyone that can direct shift a old mack can clutch shift an imp. I have a short video of my son shifting his snowcat at speed with a load of people when he gets it right its pretty neat. When he misses the shift his occupants eat what ever is in front of them. Ill find that video. His cat is an A model spryte. (Your drivetrain minus the 3spd)
OK, Redsqwrl.... A) I'm a musician so I won't do that. B) I wear contacts so that won't work ;o), C) I already blew that one, D) Now we are back to "BOB", LOL. I have a few Model T fords, one Model A pickup, a 1951 M38 Jeep and a 1953 M38A1 which require double clutching to get into first while rolling. But I'm fine with selecting a rear gear and going with that until stopped, etc.
When I am out in the woods wandering around in the '51 Jeep (my fav of the two) I am not into driving fast but like to drive slow and enjoy the experience. The same, I suspect, with the Cat. I'm just glad I can have the choices in the OC-4.
Today I am going to where the Cat is and will put the new water pump in and then I will drive it onto my trailer and bring it home so I can work on it here. I did bring the shift linkage (the rod from front to back) to clean it up on a wire wheel and it cleaned up nicely. I think I will paint it to prevent any rusting (just because I can, sans the ends where they go through the guides).
I also removed the diamond plate metal from the underlying original cover where the shifter goes through and took off the glue and old Duct tape (which is also known as "Idaho Chrome", LOL) and that was a messy job but with a heat gun and solvent it came off nicely. I will have to find a boot and ring for the shifter but I can't imagine that would be too hard as most any will do.
I don't know if one is supposed to do this but you might be interested.. this is a photo of me and Merle Haggard goofing off in his living room. Merle was a hoot !! And such a wonderful guy, funny, articulate, interesting, kind, and a hell of a musician/writer/performer. As good a fellow as you can imagine. We spent a lot of time together. No one knows who I am as I am just a picker from the back woods that has been very fortunate in so many ways... including running into this nice little Thiakol IMP snow cat !!
When I am out in the woods wandering around in the '51 Jeep (my fav of the two) I am not into driving fast but like to drive slow and enjoy the experience. The same, I suspect, with the Cat. I'm just glad I can have the choices in the OC-4.
Today I am going to where the Cat is and will put the new water pump in and then I will drive it onto my trailer and bring it home so I can work on it here. I did bring the shift linkage (the rod from front to back) to clean it up on a wire wheel and it cleaned up nicely. I think I will paint it to prevent any rusting (just because I can, sans the ends where they go through the guides).
I also removed the diamond plate metal from the underlying original cover where the shifter goes through and took off the glue and old Duct tape (which is also known as "Idaho Chrome", LOL) and that was a messy job but with a heat gun and solvent it came off nicely. I will have to find a boot and ring for the shifter but I can't imagine that would be too hard as most any will do.
I don't know if one is supposed to do this but you might be interested.. this is a photo of me and Merle Haggard goofing off in his living room. Merle was a hoot !! And such a wonderful guy, funny, articulate, interesting, kind, and a hell of a musician/writer/performer. As good a fellow as you can imagine. We spent a lot of time together. No one knows who I am as I am just a picker from the back woods that has been very fortunate in so many ways... including running into this nice little Thiakol IMP snow cat !!
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No kidding. But that is also where the fun is. I've got a lot of old stuff and spend time fixing when needed and if it is something that I don't want to do I find someone who will do it for me, like the main hydraulic arms on my backhoe or taking the drive train apart on my '51 Jeep just to replace seals and gaskets so it won't leak. I just didn't have the time and wanted to protect my fingers (that's my story and I'm sticking' to it !!)... Way back I quit rock climbing when I started to get scared... I used the guitar finger excuse and got away with it !!
That reminds me... I told Merle that I named my dog after him (he, the dog, is a Blue Merle Aussie so I called him Merley) and he said "You did, huh?" And I said "Yeah... that way I can say "Hey Merle !!! Don't eat that cat shit !!" LOL. His response was "All dogs do that." I said "I wonder why dogs do that" and he said "Must be the minerals...." Of course, I knew you meant "shift" ... Funny though.
Yesterday I installed a new water pump. Today I will fill up the radiator and start it up, drive it onto my trailer and bring it home. Well, that is the plan anyway....
Yesterday I installed a new water pump. Today I will fill up the radiator and start it up, drive it onto my trailer and bring it home. Well, that is the plan anyway....
I picked her up and brought her home yesterday and there were no issues. I took her off the trailer and drove around a pasture a little. I shifted the rear end into 3rd and it goes faster than I might want to go! Good news is that it ran fine in 3rd gear and so I can see why they disabled the shifter as it was a transport for search and rescue, not used as a recreation vehicle. Took my wife for a short ride and she now realizes how brilliant I am in waiting 2 days to buy it, LOL.
I adjusted the clutch and it shifts fine now (front transmission). Before it was hard to get in and out of gears a bit. The engine temp remained constant and normal (it ran hot before I changed the water pump as it was loosing fluid) and purrs like a kitten!!
I am fortunate that the previous 2 owners missed that it had the 4 speed rear end or they would not have sold it.
You can see in the trailer photo below that I had to put two 4byes on the trailer to elevate the cat above the center of the trailer as it was 6 inches high and the OC is less than that above the ground. This did allow me to crawl under to visualize the drain plugs for the OC and note that they were hex Allen wrench and get the right size. The one for the differential was rubbed down a bit by running over things that scraped it. I will have to clean up the entry as the hex will not go in until I do that. Thus I suspect that it has not been serviced for a while, which I will certainly do soon (by driving it onto these boards to elevate it as on the trailer).
The heater runs but it is an old one and I will look for a modern heater with a top exit (for the defroster wings) that also has a side vent for cabin heat/foot heat for the passenger. Surely there is something out there that would be quiet and more efficient than the old present one. But then I am used to long johns and down jackets!
The old M38 has a new friend !!
I adjusted the clutch and it shifts fine now (front transmission). Before it was hard to get in and out of gears a bit. The engine temp remained constant and normal (it ran hot before I changed the water pump as it was loosing fluid) and purrs like a kitten!!
I am fortunate that the previous 2 owners missed that it had the 4 speed rear end or they would not have sold it.
You can see in the trailer photo below that I had to put two 4byes on the trailer to elevate the cat above the center of the trailer as it was 6 inches high and the OC is less than that above the ground. This did allow me to crawl under to visualize the drain plugs for the OC and note that they were hex Allen wrench and get the right size. The one for the differential was rubbed down a bit by running over things that scraped it. I will have to clean up the entry as the hex will not go in until I do that. Thus I suspect that it has not been serviced for a while, which I will certainly do soon (by driving it onto these boards to elevate it as on the trailer).
The heater runs but it is an old one and I will look for a modern heater with a top exit (for the defroster wings) that also has a side vent for cabin heat/foot heat for the passenger. Surely there is something out there that would be quiet and more efficient than the old present one. But then I am used to long johns and down jackets!
The old M38 has a new friend !!
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"There is also a roof access opening in this rear passenger area.. not sure what that was for."
Escape hatch. You can drop a smaller cat into a hole in the snow and not be able to operate the doors to get out.
alternate use is build one of these
Escape hatch. You can drop a smaller cat into a hole in the snow and not be able to operate the doors to get out.
alternate use is build one of these
LOL, That is great !! I was told it was an escape hatch but thought there may have been another motive. Thanks for that ! I don't plan on falling into a hole (but no one does I expect ;o). Alternative use is for two passengers in the back standing up watching where we are going, just for fun. My kids used to do that in the jeep holding onto the roll bar.
In installed the shifter for the rear end transmission this morning and it works just fine, slides into all the gears.
Thanks for the answer, Cidertom !!
In installed the shifter for the rear end transmission this morning and it works just fine, slides into all the gears.
Thanks for the answer, Cidertom !!
Thanks, RS: I installed the shifter for the rear transmission this morning and it goes into all gears with no problem and drives in them as well. Obviously the reason, after all of this, that they disabled the ability to shift was to keep it in first gear for slow, safe driving.
The mystery is solved.
The mystery is solved.
Not with any ease. Unfortunately these 1404 Imps don't have a worm drive or pump-up grease gun hydraulic mechanism as some cats like Sprytes and LMC's do. You have to uncouple the tracks and move the front idler wheel mount to one of several bolt holes, then put it all back together and hope it's where you want it. Trial and error. When I rebuilt the original fully toasted old tracks last summer I didn't mess with the adjustment and just kept my fingers crossed. They might be just a smidgen looser than I want but seems to be working fine...no skipping, but then I haven't been in deep snow yet. I think I read somewhere that when pulling up on the end of a grouser mid point in the tracks, it should deflect 6" to 8"...something like that anyway.
Thank you, BT. I think mine might be OK. I have an excavator that is grease-pressure adjusted which is easy. Nancy at Spryte Improvement said there are 3 bolt holes to adjust but I looked at mine and only see two holes and mine are on the back ones which gives room for one forward adjustment. The play is about 4-6 inches midway and the left track is slightly looser than the right but not by much. You can see the sag in the tracks in the photos on this thread.
I have a friend that ran a Spryte on a local ski hill and he said the tracks popped of somewhat frequently. But perhaps a) they were not adjusted properly and were too loose, b) there was terrain angles on hard pack (ski hills), and c) they were turning too tight when the tracks were on hard pack (?) or got caught in heavy new snow.
If the tracks are adjusted within normal limits, I would think that physics comes into play so the need to consider lateral forces on the tracks and how that would influence pressure sufficient to pop the track, so perhaps in this vein, be careful about degree of turning, side-hill influence, and other factors that may create lateral pressures on the tracks during movement.
Of course, LOL, I have never driven one of this during the winter !! Yet... ;o)
I have a friend that ran a Spryte on a local ski hill and he said the tracks popped of somewhat frequently. But perhaps a) they were not adjusted properly and were too loose, b) there was terrain angles on hard pack (ski hills), and c) they were turning too tight when the tracks were on hard pack (?) or got caught in heavy new snow.
If the tracks are adjusted within normal limits, I would think that physics comes into play so the need to consider lateral forces on the tracks and how that would influence pressure sufficient to pop the track, so perhaps in this vein, be careful about degree of turning, side-hill influence, and other factors that may create lateral pressures on the tracks during movement.
Of course, LOL, I have never driven one of this during the winter !! Yet... ;o)
I rarely change track tension. When i do.
I take all the bolts loose. Take out three. Put a c clamp over the assembly.... push it ahead or let it swing down (tightening or loosening) put in a spud..inplace of last bolt move where you think it needs to be..... put in a bolt... pull the spud....put in remaining bolts... take out clamp.
On sprytes i step down mid span and apply about 150# worth of redsqwrl and see if the guides touch bottom of cat.
Imps same procedure but its more feel than touching cat.
Most people run their tracks too tight and then complain about different performance aspects.
601's skip a lot.
1200 rarely skip
1400 rarely skip
2100 never skip
Track laying machines are simple keep it that way and never allow yourself to have any fun.
Sos can you still strum a guitar or are your hands still beat up from that pump change....
I take all the bolts loose. Take out three. Put a c clamp over the assembly.... push it ahead or let it swing down (tightening or loosening) put in a spud..inplace of last bolt move where you think it needs to be..... put in a bolt... pull the spud....put in remaining bolts... take out clamp.
On sprytes i step down mid span and apply about 150# worth of redsqwrl and see if the guides touch bottom of cat.
Imps same procedure but its more feel than touching cat.
Most people run their tracks too tight and then complain about different performance aspects.
601's skip a lot.
1200 rarely skip
1400 rarely skip
2100 never skip
Track laying machines are simple keep it that way and never allow yourself to have any fun.
Sos can you still strum a guitar or are your hands still beat up from that pump change....
Makes logical sense...laws of physics.
Trying to visualize your description. You're doing this with the tracks in place? I've got so dang much to learn.
Just spent today dicking around with my oil pressure gauge (old Actron) and it's sender. Can't get anymore than maybe 10 psi. Gauge pegs to 80 psi when shorting to ground, so assuming it's OK. Sender ohms out at 70 ohms static and 32 ohms with 40 psi air put to it. I think the 32 ohms resistance is too high. I should replace the gauge and sender as a calibrated unit but it seems most of the senders are too big to fit in the limited space beneath the mechanical fuel pump...without removing it first. May just bite the bullet and plum in a mechanical gauge. Note: I did check the pressure with a mechanical gauge and all is good, which makes me sleep better at night.
Sorry for the detour, now back to your regularly schedged program.
Just in case you weren't aware, a 1404 manual can be found at http://www.goldcordmine.com/manuals/ It contains a paragraph on track tension. Likely Nancy provided you more and better information on this topic. The manual part numbers are Thiokol numbers. It would be nice to find a Rosette stone to convert Thiokol numbers into something more useful.
I have a very good manual from Nancy but the track tension part is a bit vague. But we took it for a drive yesterday and had a good time. All rear gears work just fine. 4th in front 3rd is a bit faster than I need to go.. indeed, probably 2nd in front 3rd is good enough. On this road you see, we did fine... until we hit bumps created by the many snowmobiles and whatever else. When that happened, it was like riding a bucking bronco!! But everything worked well. I even drove it on untracked snow and all went well.
This is likely the last time it will get driven until next winter but we went about 4 miles this time so now I know it is going to work fine. A couple of skipping of track in a turn in untracked snow but from what I hear, that is to be expected. I have had that happen on an excavator so I know what it sounds like.
The wife had fun too !!
This is likely the last time it will get driven until next winter but we went about 4 miles this time so now I know it is going to work fine. A couple of skipping of track in a turn in untracked snow but from what I hear, that is to be expected. I have had that happen on an excavator so I know what it sounds like.
The wife had fun too !!
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I concure with your findings. I tell myself range 1 is for breaking items free and close quarters (slow)
4th range generally only gets used when i need to catch up to the tuckers (sassy, joke) but yes way to fast.
Front transmission.
I find myself using reverse and 2nd and third.
Great turn around on your rig. Did its name reveal itself yet? Maybe it came with a name?
4th range generally only gets used when i need to catch up to the tuckers (sassy, joke) but yes way to fast.
Front transmission.
I find myself using reverse and 2nd and third.
Great turn around on your rig. Did its name reveal itself yet? Maybe it came with a name?