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Obama taxes Christmas trees
- Thread starter Zorro
- Start date
No, that would be me. Given the size of this place, let me just apologize in advance for the next time I do it. I undoubtedly will. I read to slow (you know like a human being) to catch everything on here. Sorry!
And what does this have to do with what I have said? One of us is confused and it ain' t me.
Please stop putting words I did not say in my mouth based on your conclusions. We need to reduce taxes. I never said anything about witholding them. Geez.
We are talking about a new fee, a new tax here. We need to elect folks who do not find ways to reach further into our pockets to consolidate power.
Frankly you are all over the map here trying to defend the status quo. Which is an ever increasing rate of taxation. Some of it is above board and obvious like income taxes and property taxes. Some is under the radar like fees and taxing those producers in our economy as though it would not effect the daily cost of living for everyone else.
It's not just Christmas trees. The government wants to tax soft drinks, candy, fuels, energy, communications,anything it can think of, all to collect revenues under the quise of regulating and protecting us from the evil Corporations and ourselves. Why?
"Were the government to decide when and what to sow and reap we would soon want for bread."
T Jefferson.
This fee is so stupid. It is right out of the Movie "Dave' where Dave was a stand in double & faux President trying to balance the budget. He asked the Commerce secretary why we needed an advertising campaign to "convince Americans to be proud of the cars they had already purchased". This is a part and parcel knockoff clone of that same idea. Preposterous.
Americans are buying artificial trees for a reason. The natural growers don't need a better ad campaign, they need a competing product, or another product, or they need to be out of business.
It is tough seeing a life's work drifting away because something new has come along. I know. We used to wrap 50 million sets of 3-D glasses a year for world wide distribution. New TV's don't need them anymore. Before that we wrapped 100 million coupons a year. Now most are on line or in the local papers.
So now, the government could subsidize my operations this year and keep me in chips making something nobody wants.
OR
We could retool and make something else.
So next spring we launch a new product some of which you will find on retail shelves in February- March. No Government money, taxes or fees,, or intervention in the market, required. And when this on no longer has potential, we'll have something else.
Or we will die.
Nothing to be sorry about Zorro.
I only mentioned it because there were other replys to the first thread when it was posted . I'm as forgetfull as a lot of folks if not more, I thought I had replyed allready but had second thoughts untill I looked .
FYI. I find it easier to go to the top right and check todays posts rather then looking through all of the other topics , dont mean it works for everyone though.
thcri
Gone But Not Forgotten
Originally Posted by FrancSevin
Again a clever dodge? Well, hardly. And as usual, a purposeful diversion that completely ignores my point. In the end it proves you simply won't or don't get it.
EVERY dollar we must send to Washington is one we do not get to decide for ourselves. Money is power and every dollar sent to Washington is an accumulation of that power.
Since the begining of our nation that concentration has increased every year. And now, a significant percentage of that "power" is no longer in residence with the people.
The people cannot take back the power that once resided in them unless they curtail the source of the power going to DC. It really is that simple. We simply must say NO to any form of higher taxes.
"the natural progress of things is for liberty to yeild and government to gain ground" T Jefferson
I would presume his prophecy to be proven. Question for our nation today is, can we possibly reverse this trend?
I hardly think a tax on Christmas trees is stepping in the right direction.
Ok seeing as how you don't seem to understand what I'm speaking too I will highlight it for you. This is the only part I was responding too. My point is as you stated giving more money to the government you have no control over, well you don't so forget about it.
I also added presidents have no control over the purse string other than what congress gives them at the time they are in office. It really doesn't matter what party/president is in office Congress is the problem period.
Now is that simple enough for you to understand? As for the dodge part I found that a bit condesending, but pretty used to it around here with all the very hard right BS.
Yeah, simple enough, You got it wrong.
You keep forgetting that the current President and the Congress are working in concert because they belong to the same party. While it is not as true of the 112th as the 111th congress where he had a majority in the House and Senate he still holds the big cards.As of late, most votes in Washington are right down party lines. So, it seems logical that the party leader of the party in power, say Barak Obama, would have the ability to get what he wants.
I seemto recall a few days into his Presidency him asking for and getting a near $trillion in spendulus, I'm sorry Stimulis, money to spend. Congress did not bring that to him, he demanded it. Not sure how that fits your formula of how our government actually functions.
Bush 43 and the GOP did the same thing. In both cases it was bad for America because in both cases the size of our government grew expotentialy. It was the Founders hope that such would not happen.
You keep talking about the structure of the government and how it is supposed to work, and I am talking about how that structure is actually being used.
I am using this simple 15 cent tax on Christmas trees to show how the abuse functions no matter the party involved. No matter the agency involved, no matter the branch of Government involved. It is a consolidation of power by consolidating the money and then re distributing it to favored groups.
That is the power source of Washington DC. The ability to make decisions involving large amounts of money.
Our Money
Read the writings and musings of the founders. They had this reality pegged. What they constructed was as close to anarchy as a constituted government could be.
As for whom I am talking too, I am as unaware of your credentials as you are of mine. Somehow, I have apparently failed to see the significance of of your stature here. I am regretfully sorry, but all I have to go on is what you publish. I'm just a humble business owner that used to teach American History and Political Science.
We can trade pedigrees,and insults, and get as personal as you wish but I would rather trade ideas. Mine are basicaly veridical with the Libertarian party but not entirely. I am usualy liberal on social issues and conservative on fiscal ones. But fitting me into a pidgeonhole of your chosing will prove difficult.
You are welcome to try, but it is a bit annoying to the others when it drifts the thread off topic. Shall we instead get back to the power grab stupidity of taxing Christmas trees?
And what that really means.
BTW, we do get to decide how our money is spent. This is still a Republic. We need to chose more wisely for whom we vote.
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Well perhaps it is due to you being fairly new here Franc, so I will accept your interpretation of what I'm saying. So here it is.
Neither the Republican or Democratic party give a flying fu#k about the people of the United States. These two parties combined are different sides of the same coin. It really makes no difference which party is in power nor has it in over 40 years they are about their reelection and how much they can glean for themselves and not get caught doing it. This is true of almost ever one of America's institutions from the government to business etc. This country only has one god and that is money and if you have it you have power without you don't. Nothing simpler than that but in this group that is class warfare which to me is pure BS really. The power brokers/puppet master have pulled the strings for years now while most of us simply try to get by.
Oh yes and as for the Christmas tree tax who cares really as that is the least of our worries as a country really wasting time on 15 cents on every tree sold. Have you been to a grocery store lately and you are upset about 15 cents.
As for government growing well it has grown steady since we became a nation and will continue to grow if we survive as one. Now I have my doubts that we have much longer but that is me. I feel both parties will bring this country down as the system is a complete failure.
Neither the Republican or Democratic party give a flying fu#k about the people of the United States. These two parties combined are different sides of the same coin. It really makes no difference which party is in power nor has it in over 40 years they are about their reelection and how much they can glean for themselves and not get caught doing it. This is true of almost ever one of America's institutions from the government to business etc. This country only has one god and that is money and if you have it you have power without you don't. Nothing simpler than that but in this group that is class warfare which to me is pure BS really. The power brokers/puppet master have pulled the strings for years now while most of us simply try to get by.
Oh yes and as for the Christmas tree tax who cares really as that is the least of our worries as a country really wasting time on 15 cents on every tree sold. Have you been to a grocery store lately and you are upset about 15 cents.
As for government growing well it has grown steady since we became a nation and will continue to grow if we survive as one. Now I have my doubts that we have much longer but that is me. I feel both parties will bring this country down as the system is a complete failure.
Having a senior moment there Zorro?
Ahhh, the good old days. When they only lasted a moment.
Sounds like you have already capitulated to the swiney bumms JoeC. Sorry to hear it.
You could save yourself a lot of greif and just send in you paychecks. Sign them over.
Me, I still believe we can get this puppy back onthe trails.
But wewon't do it sending more money to DC. So I'm fighting every dime they try and take.
And fighting the seeming juggernaught of ever increasing government size, waste and abuse. As Enceladas suggested, it's 15 cents here,a dime there. That got us into this. Fighting back every time they try will get us out.
Or one could just say "screw it" and pretend it isn't a big deal.
But let me ask you this Joe, with you head down in the sand like that, doesn't it make you butt look fat?
Sounds like you have already capitulated to the swiney bumms JoeC. Sorry to hear it.
You could save yourself a lot of greif and just send in you paychecks. Sign them over.
Me, I still believe we can get this puppy back onthe trails.
But wewon't do it sending more money to DC. So I'm fighting every dime they try and take.
And fighting the seeming juggernaught of ever increasing government size, waste and abuse. As Enceladas suggested, it's 15 cents here,a dime there. That got us into this. Fighting back every time they try will get us out.
Or one could just say "screw it" and pretend it isn't a big deal.
But let me ask you this Joe, with you head down in the sand like that, doesn't it make you butt look fat?
OK partner so let me ask you what are you're going to do about it? You got a billion dollars to buy you local politicians? Well at my age I have joined Carlin on this I'm strictly an observer as I frankly no longer give a real damn about what happens any more with this country. But then I've seen up close and more personal than most here will ever see it.
I'm no spring chicken myself. Could have done the SS thing years ago.Sat back, joined AARP, got the goodies and the government checks on the labor of others. Given my fire service injuries I could just suck on the teat of the county taxpayers.
And bitch about them damm Republicans.
But I have grandkids, they can't as yet vote. And I worry about their future. So I'm working in local politics, state and national campaigns for people I can believe in.
But mostly this year, I am concentrating on the future of those grandkids ,,,,so,,,,,I'm voting for Cain.
Funniest thing.....not a one of them politicians has asked me for money. Just my time and energies...
Rub it in Fog.
No really, rub it in. You are gonna be colder than a well digger's arse in Jaunary up there very soon. Rub them body parts so they don't get frozen.
Well good for you and good luck with Cain though I expect it won't be pretty either way.
I don't get SS though I could, own my own business a self storage facility, just started on Medicare which I paid for and work my ass off. Oh and kids my wife and I had 4, three of which still survive one died at 31 due to domestic violence leaving 3 kids to raise ourselves. In addition to those three we have 14 other grand kids and soon to be 6 great grandkids. So please don't tell me about sucking on the government teat as I've never collected anything but a pay check for travailing the world for them over 4 years risking my life. Oh and I was never in the military but do have wounds gotten in the line of duty to this country.
Sounds like your plate is fairly full.
But I don't understandwhy you feel like just giving up on what the government does. I preach allthe timethat we can't get back to where we were from where we are. True, But I refuse to just give up trying too do it.
My motto has always been, prepare for the worst, hope for the best and exploit the potential of whatever actually comes.
Best wishes on your journey.
Rub it in Fog.
No really, rub it in. You are gonna be colder than a well digger's arse in Jaunary up there very soon. Rub them body parts so they don't get frozen.
Rub, rub, rub, etc!
Well as cold as it may be, I have the gear to stay warm! Half the fun is getting the tree, setting it up is the other half. Kinda lost a bit of the fun since the kids are long moved out! But I take other families out that don't have my toys! They enjoy it and the kids will remember it for the rest of their life! Have a big otter sled that holds a big tree!
Really hate the fake trees!
Didn't think this out real well did you? Snowmachine's do run on some kind of fuel. You do pay tax on that, perhaps you can walk and save 15 cents. 
Nope there is also a tax on shoes.
Here in MO off road vehicles do not pay road taxes on fuel. Just say in'
Besides, the tree is still tax free as it is separate from the vehicle.
All that said, your encapsulation of the road fuel tax into the aquisition of the tree proves my earlier point that Taxes are accumulative and collected by the various industries from which we consumers buy our goods and services. All of this goes tothe government along with thepower tht welth brings.
And those guys justspend it, mosty to whore votes.
Joe, I agree that, in purely technical terms, any monetary amount levied by our government that is not specifically
labeled "tax" is not a tax. However, agencies can now post a proposed "fee", "levy", or "surcharge" (etc.) without
calling them a tax, and without going through congress by simply and quietly posting said proposal in the Federal
Register; if no one objects within a specified time limit, usually 30 days, that regulation becomes active and has the force
of law.
While a levied amount such as the $0.15 Christmas tree is not technically a tax, we are not far wrong if we call it such;
if it quacks like a duck, and so forth. And none of these levies, which could well be called 'regulatory taxes', have to
pass muster by our elected representatives. They are all based, no matter how loosely, on legislation that was passed
by Congress.
So, setting all semantic dithering aside, these ARE taxes no matter how we may try to disguise them by coating
them in other words; I believe most rational people would agree. Our problem is that we have let a situation
develop where very often quite low-level bureaucrats can write regulations that carry the force of federal law,
including severe penalties for violations, and the vast majority of the populace doesn't even know it happens!
labeled "tax" is not a tax. However, agencies can now post a proposed "fee", "levy", or "surcharge" (etc.) without
calling them a tax, and without going through congress by simply and quietly posting said proposal in the Federal
Register; if no one objects within a specified time limit, usually 30 days, that regulation becomes active and has the force
of law.
While a levied amount such as the $0.15 Christmas tree is not technically a tax, we are not far wrong if we call it such;
if it quacks like a duck, and so forth. And none of these levies, which could well be called 'regulatory taxes', have to
pass muster by our elected representatives. They are all based, no matter how loosely, on legislation that was passed
by Congress.
So, setting all semantic dithering aside, these ARE taxes no matter how we may try to disguise them by coating
them in other words; I believe most rational people would agree. Our problem is that we have let a situation
develop where very often quite low-level bureaucrats can write regulations that carry the force of federal law,
including severe penalties for violations, and the vast majority of the populace doesn't even know it happens!
actually, A good part of what is happening now did start in the last two, actually three years. It "IS" Obama and the progresives who have run the congress for the last 5 years.
ONe could make the case that both Parties put us in the straights we are in today. But Obama's, (Pelosi's and Reid's) approaches to solutions have failed. More of the same is idiotic.
It is time to remove the profesional politicians from our government. Irregardles of party affiliations.
get a clue, please.
sunlover
New member
Typical thinking by many, unfortunately. How about i "get a clue" when everybody else does...works for me.
Kane
New member
It seems tho you speak solely from a compassion for Obama.
If you would be kind enough to present reasoned dialogue as to why it is not all "Obama's fault", we'd be glad to listen. Does your research and knowledge of politics indicate otherwise?
Tell us more.
.
sunlover
New member
lol Well, first of all, i don't speak "solely" from a compassion for the President. That assumption is on you...
In my opinion, anybody that has a memory should know that the condition this country is in didn't start with Obama. I mean i remember the years with Bush jr and others...doesn't anybody else. One doesn't really need to do research or have a major knowledge of politics...just a good memory.
However, B H Obama and his friends, Harry and Nancy promisedto fix things.
How's that going for ya?
When, exactly do you think these "problems" started?
I candraw a straight line back to several administrations ,,or several congresses. However, once there anyone can draw a straight , logical line,,,,,,right accross the aisle to the other side.
Both parties were guilty, each one promising to solve the problem.
Each one getting richer and making the government more powerful with every implemented solution.
Such a discussion is a long way from Christmas treesand yet, curiously, I cannot think of a better symbol than a Chritmas tree to explain how it works.
Can you say Ommnibus bill?