Kristi tracks

[Stygian7]

Well, I made it home with the Kristi. Wife laughed and said Something about Dr Suess. She will thank me when she not pulling on the starter for the snowmobile we currently use to access our cabin…maybe. Good news first…she starts and runs great. I played with her a bit today and I think I’ve figured out the gears/leveling. The fore/aft adjustment isn’t as simple, but I’ll manage with some time. Trailer pulled very nice, though I question the origination. Seller stated that it was Kristi supplied…it has no markings to indicate that it was manufactured by Kristi. It’s manufactured by Atwood. Did Kristi ever build their own trailers?

Seems to have a parasitic electrical draw. Was bone dead after 2 days on the trailer. Can’t be much to trace down, just have to find my multimeter…

First thing will be track rebuild. I plan to follow BigAl’s instructions with the HDPE grousers and new belting. Where to start…I’ve been reading and, I should take notes, but I haven’t.

BigAl mentions the inner/outer belts being “floppy” for better control, a design he said he did not return to. Mine has that configuration. Has there been any consensus on whether the original “floppy” configuration is good or if I should abandon the 1960s design?

Next question; why the difference in connectors on inner and outer belting? Wouldn’t it just be better to change all belts to the flexco fasteners of the inner belts? The alligator lacing seems kind of flimsy, though I suppose the shared load over each section isn’t beyond reason.

3-ply/5-ply? Mine currently has three sections per side…is that usual? The belting on the inner/outer belts is different thickness. Should they all be the same or is there rationale for the variation?

Here’s what I’ve found on the HDPE 2x2…good/bad, look elsewhere?

STRUCTURAL 2 in x 2 in x 8 ft (Actual Dimensions 1-1/2 in x 1-1/2 in)

Actual Size: 1 1/2 in x 1 1/2 in Weight Per Ft.: 1 Height: 2 in Width: 2 in Length: 8 ft Color: Black, Blue, Brown, Cedar, Forest Green, Gray, Industrial Dark Gray, Mink, Spice, Tan, Weathered Wood, White, Yellow

plasticlumberyard.com

Bad news at the end; nothing really, just looking at this cat and wondering what I’ve gotten myself into. Clearly, it would have been cheaper to just buy a restored, newer machine, but not nearly as fun or cool. I seem to have a habit of doing this…

 

[Stygian7]

 

[luvthemvws]

Three sections per side is normal. They are done that way so that if you have to service them in the outback there will always be a "seam" that can be accessed above the snow. All kinds of pain in the butt if there is only one seam and it's not on top when you have to split the tracks.

 

[Stygian7]

Correction on the trailer. The Jack is Atwood. The trailer itself has a plate that says manufactured by ARRCO industries, SLC Utah.

 

[Cidertom]

As to the ply question. The OEM on Snow Tracs was 5. but, Belting (as most materials) have come a long way. The 3 ply I have now is rated for low temperature, tight bends, and more load than the original according to the seller. I would love to tell you what brand, but that information is lost. If I had to do it again, I'd ask Fallline. Lots of folks have used conveyor scraps. One consideration is the stiffer the belt the more power is spent bending the belt. I opted for special low temp to lose as little as possible.

 

[redsqwrl]

keep the oem floppy design. It is brilliant and your only side hilling protection.

the splices need to be exactly as they are or you will eat your sprockets.

the kristi web site has a ton of information to include the pattern for your belting, see If you can find it.

are you east or west or midwest

 

[KT3survivor]

I ditched the powder belt design on mine and drilled them to the same spacing as the inner belts. Can't say I have noticed much downside but I sure like the look better. After using both flexco and alligator lacing I would recommend going flexco on all the belt splicing. The alligator style can be difficult to install straight and it likes to open up over time when spun at break neck kristi speeds. Also would recommend using composite material on the kleats. Using cheap wood has awarded me lots of extra maintenance time to think about that decision.

As far as the hydro ski action, there is a pump up procedure in the manual I can post if needed. While it can be adjusted front and rear it was only really designed for side to side traverse maneuvers. The knobs are used to level out all 4 corners. I've always thought some creative valving would make it more versatile.

Sweet cat. Hope to see it throwing snow in the near future!

 

[redsqwrl]

Self explanatory

 

[Rover’n]

My experience with original track is that the wooden cleats lasted only one season. There was nothing I could do to preserve them over the summer when dry rot essentially destroyed them before my eyes. That said, they worked just fine that first year, needing only one cleat that needed replacing. I would suggest testing the machine out this season with an eye toward track work over the off-season.

The flotation tracks are of a thinner material and the rat-bite connectors are adequate for that application. The floaters require a square of rubber on the cleat bolts to bring the long cleats up to the same level as the drive tracks. I have seen early Kristi KT2s that featured canvas floater belts. I like the “curtain-style” flotation design at least partially since it keeps the track relatively light (a consideration given hp limitations).

Three-ply is what I have on my KT3 drive belts with Flex-Co connectors and that is what I selected for replacement. Sourced out of Idaho Falls, I believe. I used synthetic outdoor deck balustrade material for cleats, which have held up well including extreme cold work.

I concur with the excellent comments as well. Some of my Kristi work is documented here: https://www.forumsforums.com/threads/kristi-kt2a-rescue-of-sorts.89469/

 

[Idaho IMP]

Correction on the trailer. The Jack is Atwood. The trailer itself has a plate that says manufactured by ARRCO industries, SLC Utah.

That trailer is identical to my thiokol trailer for my IMP. I haven’t had mine long but it made a 700 mile trip home without issue. They tow nicely. I will put a new axle under mine as well as completely re-wire, re-light the whole thing. I will add a pair of 4” grommet mount clear lamps for backing purposes. I may change the coupler out as well. The trailer had been jackknifed at some point so the coupler is kinda tweaked. I plan on cutting off the old coupler and welding on a vertical mount adjustable channel and bolt on coupler. Mike has a Thiokol data tag. I think it’s #42.

 

[Stygian7]

Wow, I missed a bunch of comments; been busy at work this week. Thanks for all the helpful advice! I looked at online sources for the HDPE for the cleats, but when I went to shipping, it was a non-Starter. Off to my local lumber yard, who told me the only option they could offer was a Trex 2x4x12 that I would have to rip down to get to the correct size. Oh, and about $100ea.

Then I figured I would check some big box stores. Closest to me is Menards in Dickinson, ND (I’m in eastern Montana). Found these on clearance for $0.99ea, so I grabbed 90 of them. That’s enough for two sets plus a few for repairs. I’m hoping they hold up well and I don’t need the second set anytime soon:

https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/decking-deck-products/exterior-railings-gates/ultradeck-composite-railing/ultradeck-reg-rustic-trade-32-redwood-spindle/1122740/p-1444441483292-c-13474.htm

I did get print off the manual along with a bunch of notes, including a good bit on the tracks. I need to find some time to double check and compare the measurements on my tracks, but am on the road for the next few weeks.

 

[Stygian7]

picture below is what I have for cleats. Now for the belting. Seems like a lot of workable options and no real “right” answer. I’ve decided to keep the floating outer belt design. Although the alligator lacing on the outer belts is sufficient, is there any reason not to just use Flexco 550 on all the belts? Flexco 550 is what the existing belts have and I have a dozen or so brand new ones and a tool that came with the Kristi. If I can keep all the connections the same, that’s my preference.

On the belting, thinking I can just go 3-ply on all 4 belts? Doesn’t seem to me that they need to be different strengths as long as the middle belts can handle the job. I looked at Fallline; they say that their 2-ply/220 is standard for low HP cats, which this certainly would be. That being said, if I go to the trouble of a complete track rebuild, I don’t want to revisit the issue for many years. They have other belting options, but I haven’t had time to call yet. Any thoughts on using the 2-ply?

 

[Cidertom]

My thoughts: if you may have to run over any real amount of gravel / rock road at least 3 ply for tear/ cut resistance.

 

[redsqwrl]

Tuckers with 200 hp use 2-220 belting. machines weigh much more.

You will be lucky if you ever develop 90 with a porsche version.

more plys you use the more HP you will need.
I am intending to rebuild one set of kristi tracks and build two more sets. One set is for a customer. I have hickory grousers on the cat I am running, It sat on the ground in the midwest for at least 6 years before I got it and those gousers look fantastic. I will be using White oak for the rebuild set. and If I find hickory I will use that for the restoration projects. If you are not in a hurry, I will be making templates and cutting boards. I am in the midwest and make lots of belts using fenner dunlop belting.

$.02

 

[Rover’n]

I fully agree w/ redsqwrl that 2-220 for the drive belts would be just fine for recreational use on snow. I would go even lighter, such as ag baling belts for the floaters so that they would retain the up-and-down curtain aspect. Horsepower is key to these rigs and for the time being at least you’ve got 34 or so on a good day. It takes a lot to turn all that track.

As per the cleats, the hickory are slightly trapezoidal in shape, which offers a traction advantage over the 2X2-inch synthetics. My son has had success in producing them from hickory stock and we will probably go fully retro on our next build. I admittedly have a degree of respect for the original engineering on the Kristi cats — pretty elegant, IMO, and pleasant to the eye.

 

[Stygian7]

I like the idea of baling belt on the floaters. No reason to be concerned about stretch on those and should be able to bring the cost down some. I’m going to verify measurements before proceeding, but in the meantime will be cutting/drilling the synthetic grousers. I’ve noticed on mine that the inner floater belts seem to have occasionally rubbed on the body fiberglass. Couldn’t have been much as there is no damage into the fiberglass, but thinking I might shave a quarter inch off the inside belt.

Plan on flexco for all four belts. Maybe someday I’ll revisit the synthetic/hickory issue, but for now, I have a lot of more pressing issues to get her in shape for next season.

I’ll be replacing all the tires. Any recommendations? Is foam filling something I should be doing? If so, I have no idea where I’d get that done.

 

[Cidertom]

On foam: tradeoff is much more weight vs flat free. They still can be damaged though. Any big tire shop can get them done, or refer you to who can.

 

[vintagebike]

just realized that hidden away in a corner was a NOS 1/3 section of Kristi track that came as spare with our KT3. Now I need just 5 more.

 

[redsqwrl]

Im new to kristis. I acquired three. two of them have the tracks on differently than the other. two the rigs are 94-96 inches. one of the rigs is 91" wide I have access to five total kristi kt4 and it looks that wide outer belts was a thing. If I turn the tracks around on the other two machines they would all be narrower, but likely to rub.

 

[Stygian7]

I’ve had a chance to get some measurements and would love it if someone can confirm my numbers are reasonable.

My drive belts range from 4.75-5.25 inches wide, depending on where I measure them. I’m guessing they were replaced at some point and the cutting wasn’t perfectly accurate. Seems to be fairly well documented that inner belts are 5 inches wide, which I will stick with. My outer belts also vary a good bit, from 5.125-5.5 inches wide. I plan to go 5.25 inches wide on the floater belts. My bolt spacing on long and short cleats matches the drawings by Gary Wilkinson:

Short cleat, from center: 3.5” to first bolt, then additional 2.75” to the next bolt

Long cleat, from center: 3.5” to first bolt, then 2.75”, then 4”

As far as length, my cleats are 5.75” apart. I have 21 long and 21 short cleats on each side. I calculate 5.75x2=11.5. So, for each of the three sections, I have 11.5x6=69 inches. I then need to add 5.75” for the last cleat on each section plus the extra belting beyond the last cleats of each section. On each end of each section, I have 2.5 inches. I come up with 69+5.75+5=79.75 inches of belt for each section.

With the three sections, I have a total length of 239.25 inches. The flexco fasteners measure at 0.5 per joint, giving another 1.5. Grand total is 240.75”, which is about 20 feet.

I measured one of the loose floater belts and got about 84, but I wasn’t able to get it perfectly flat by myself. Is it accurate to add an inch of slack between long cleats for the floaters?

I question my calculations because the numbers I found on the drive belts, again from Wilkinson are quite different. He has 262.5 inches total, but I think his math is incorrect as he multiplies 11.5 by 21, but then also adds an extra 11.5 inches and another 9.5 inch splice length on the belts. Without the additional 21 inches, our numbers are very close. Am I missing something? For what it’s worth, when I measure my existing drive belts, I get lengths ranging from ~77-79 inches. Tough to get an accurate measurement since they have been rolled up for quite some time, but I don’t think I’m very far off of actual.

 

[Rover’n]

I think I have some notes and will check tomorrow. In the meantime, there is this from Big Al’s build from some years ago: https://www.forumsforums.com/threads/can-you-help-me-measure-my-cleats.30920/

 

[Daisyifyoudo]

My tracks inner belts are 5 inches and outers are 5.5 inches they still have wood cleats don't know how original.

 

[Rover’n]

From my notes.
Track: five-inch wide drive track, 5/8”-thick, three-ply, 3/8”-thick; three seven-foot segments, 79-inch flat; outer floater track is single-ply, 5.5”-wide; 23-feet per length, (longer given the curtain-type configuration, adding about an inch between each long cleat).
Cleats: 21 long and 21 short per side, lengths and drilling as per Wilkinson.
Wear Plate: 1 1/4X1/8” flat bar configured and drilled same as cleats (re-used almost all).
Bolts: 5/16X3” stainless grade five x/ grade eight nuts (double nut or go slightly shorter than 3”), 420 both track.

Results, of course, may vary.

 

[Stygian7]

From my notes.
Track: five-inch wide drive track, 5/8”-thick, three-ply, 3/8”-thick; three seven-foot segments, 79-inch flat; outer floater track is single-ply, 5.5”-wide; 23-feet per length, (longer given the curtain-type configuration, adding about an inch between each long cleat).
Cleats: 21 long and 21 short per side, lengths and drilling as per Wilkinson.
Wear Plate: 1 1/4X1/8” flat bar configured and drilled same as cleats (re-used almost all).
Bolts: 5/16X3” stainless grade five x/ grade eight nuts (double nut or go slightly shorter than 3”), 420 both track.

Results, of course, may vary.

Thanks! That’s exactly what I needed. Confirms my measurements are reasonably accurate and should work. I think I’m going to play with the spacing slightly; as it is now, I have a slightly larger spacing between cleats at the joints.

 

[Stygian7]

I sent in the FallLine custom belt form. Quote I got back was $212 for drive belts (5” wide) and $245 (5.25” wide) for floatation belts. This was for their “220 series”, as in their cheapest option. Very strange pricing considering the floaters have half the holes to punch. Real kicker here is that the pricing given…is for each 1/3 of one belt, meaning that for one side of the car, I would be looking at $2742 plus shipping cost! I called to confirm, so I’m not misinterpreting the email. I expected A premium from them, but that pricing is just insulting.

Capital Rubber in Sacramento quoted about $7.50/lineal foot for 2-ply/220 belting. They said they could put the lacing on for me. He recommended Flexco 375 for the 2-ply belting. I didn’t get into specifics on the upcharge for the lacing as I’m going to call a couple other places first so that I have something to compare to.

 

[peace]

Hi,
I am a little late to the conversation, but was recently through the process of building tracks for my Kristi. Because I am trying to maintain the original look of the machine, I went with looser belts on the outside of the tracks and used alligator lacing to connect them. Due to the low HP of the VW engines, I opted to use conveyor belting during my rebuild. I sourced belting through my local industrial supplier in western Montana, which proved to be very cost effective because they had short pieces that they had no other use for. They were able to cut them to width at their facility, which gave a very uniform result. To punch the belts, I build a custom jig that has locating pins and bushings to guide a rotary punch. It was designed to be able to drill both the inner and outer belts depending on how it was configured. I chucked the punch in a cordless drill and the friction from the rotating punch created the holes very easily.

My restoration was intended to keep the machine as stock as possible, so I used hickory for my grousers and capped it with steel as done from the factory. The hickory was sourced from a hardwood supplier and then sawn/drilled to the desired dimensions. I don't have many hours on the machine yet so I'm not sure how the grousers will hold up long-term, but I figure that if I de-tension the tracks during the summer and store the tracks out of the elements, they should hold up reasonably well.

 

[Stygian7]

Looking at the jig you built, it appears you used the same width belting on inner and outer belts?

Can you share or PM me the supplier you used for the belting? I’m in eastern Montana, but make it to the other side of the state on occasion. Would be nice to avoid freight charges, if possible. Closest I’ll be able to find where I’m at is agricultural belting.

 

[peace]

I used two different widths for the inner and outer belts. The jig was able to accommodate both sizes. The longer rail rides against the belt and the pins that are located on the left side of the jig in the pictures locate the assembly using the previous set of holes. The two sets of bushings allow for two sets of holes to be punched prior to the assembly being relocated. I felt this would help to keep the hole spacing more consistent over the length of the belt.

I wasn't sure that all Kristi sprockets were manufactured with the same diameter/profile, so I triple checked everything and mocked up several grousers to verify that it meshed properly before committing to drilling all the holes.

 

[Rover’n]

Very nice looking system, Peace. I have sourced track through Snake River Supply out of Idaho Falls (also have outlets in other cities). These guys know all aspects of belting and will prepare what you need, in my case, 330 for the drives. I bought an 88-foot roll at five inches width, and it was ready when I was able to make a trip down that way. You can also ask if they have shorter scrap pieces that you can configure into thirds for each side. They also tossed in the hollow drill bit. Cannot remember if I bought the Flexco fasteners through them, but they know all about that as well.

 

[Stygian7]

Been busy with other projects, but have found a bit of time for the Kristi. Tracks are disassembled and I have new belting in the shop. I ended up going with Snake River Supply in Idaho Falls. Matt there was very helpful; they had the belt matching the specs I wanted and the best price. Had to ship it, but for all the belts, was under $100 to get it to me.

As I look at the wheel guides, I’m perplexed by the design. I can’t understand the reason for the bends around the sprocket area. I understand they needed to accommodate for the belt thickness, but why not just use a straight piece of steel and add a 1/4” (or what thickness they needed for the original belting) piece of steel right there at the sprocket. To me, the bends are just introducing weak points to fail. Is the tolerance of track to body the issue?

In my case, I did cut 1/4” off of the floatation belts as it appeared they had rubbed on the fiberglass in the past. On mine, there is also an area where the rear linkage has cut into the fiberglass. I’m planning to weld some stopping blocks to limit the downward travel so that this doesn’t continue to occur. I’ll take some pictures tomorrow to better illustrate.

Before I get too far into this, can anyone point out what I might be missing, in regards to the need for the bend on the wheel guides at the sprocket area?