Is Bush a Liar?

[BoneheadNW]

In the interest of fairness, I thought that I would start this thread to see what you all think of our president. When I ask, "Is Bush a Liar?", I am really asking if you believe the man is truthful, because I think we can all agree that, ideally, we would want our president to be truthful.

What do you think?

Bonehead

 

[Melensdad]

My general impression of him is that he is sincere. I'd basically say the same about his dad. And I'd say the same about Reagan and Carter too.


Nixon and Clinton were liars.


In the cases of the current GW Bush, his dad GHW Bush, as well as with Reagan and Carter, I believe there were probably lies that they were fed and that they repeated and didn't realize were lies. But I would say that they are/were sincere people who were/are basically honest.

Now GHW Bush did say he would not raise taxes, I think people considered him a liar when he went back on that, and I think that was a large chunk of his downfall.

 

[DaveNay]

My general impression of him is that he is sincere.

Actually, I believe that he is the worst type of liar. He firmly believes everything he has said, and is incapable of acknowledging that something he may have said was wrong, even when later proven to be incorrect.

Many people have taken this to mean that he is a blatent liar, but I suspect that he is simply between a rock and a hard place.

 

[Melensdad]

I didn't say he wasn't a hapless idiot. I think he is that too. But that wasn't the question. I still don't think he is a liar.

 

[BoneheadNW]

I didn't say he wasn't a hapless idiot. I think he is that too. But that wasn't the question. I still don't think he is a liar.

COP OUT! COP OUT!

I guess I should start a new thread but since you have the opinion you do Bob, which is worse to have as a president, a liar or a moron (you used the words "hapless idiot")?

Bonehead

 

[Melensdad]

Bone, no cop out at all. I don't support him. I don't consider him a liar.

I voted for the man. Twice. Both times I believe I made the correct choice. If I had the opportunity to 're-do' my visits to the voting booth, both times I would cast the same ballot.

I have also been very critical of 'dub-ya' countless times on the forums. I have been consistent in my criticism of our current President. He is not one that I consider a good President. I do think he is a better President than Kerry or Gore could have been. I don't consider Carter to have been a good President either.

 

[bczoom]

Now GHW Bush did say he would not raise taxes, I think people considered him a liar when he went back on that, and I think that was a large chunk of his downfall.

If my politics/government is still just a little correct, the Executive branch proposes the budget but the Legislative branch has to approve it. GHW proposed budgets that didn't increase taxes but congress spit it back every time. He couldn't get a damn thing through Congress unless he conceded to raising taxes but (as noted), he still takes the fall.

 

[Draddogs]

Actually, I believe that he is the worst type of liar. He firmly believes everything he has said, and is incapable of acknowledging that something he may have said was wrong, even when later proven to be incorrect

Are we talking about Kerry here? Seems to me you are saying the same thing that you so boldly defended Kerry on.Duh... this is just an ever going dog chase's his tail thread with correct and incorrect bantering from both sides. The real issue is can we prove with out a doubt that Pres. Bush is a liar. It is different than with Kerry who is all over the map on any given day where as Bush is steadfast in his convictions.

I don't know or care of your political convictions just would like some actual fact instead of a gut feeling that one is lying or not. The same thing happened in the Kerry thread.

We have a hard time debating when our political convictions cloud clear thinking and good oral communication on a subject that seems to have every body up in arms.

With that said I find it hard to believe that any man has not lied sometime somewhere. Now the President of the United States no matter the political party could not pull off a lie as big as going to war in Iraq that no one caught on till 2 yrs later. Give us proof that he has lied to us and we will denounce him whether a Rep or A Dem.

 

[Melensdad]

Brian, you recall it the way I recall it. However I think he could have fought it, he didn't, he actually conceeded way to fast. He took the fall for it and he deserved to at very least take a lot of grief. The Republicans are now becoming the big government, big tax, big spenders. What the heck is that all about?

 

[BoneheadNW]

Bob, I respect your decisions and opinions, although my votes went the other way.
With regard to how I view a president, or any individual for that matter, I like to separate out whom I "like" with whom I "respect". In other words, I can like a person and not have much respect for them (for example some childhood friends who have done nothing with their lives) or respect someone and not like them (some people I work with, for example). I neither like or respect our current president. I believe that he is a liar and a moron. His dad, who is a pretty bright guy, and mom, who seems to be a sweet woman, gave him all kinds of opportunities. Yet, while he is a two term president (legit or not some would argue) he has lied and bumbled (my opinion, of course) through his presidency.

Bonehead

 

[bczoom]

Brian, you recall it the way I recall it. However I think he could have fought it, he didn't, he actually conceeded way to fast.

My "guess" has always been that his legacy (and re-election) was based on closing the Reagan initiative of shutting down the USSR. GHW guessed wrong.

The Republicans are now becoming the big government, big tax, big spenders. What the heck is that all about?

Not fully convinced about the big tax but with a couple wars in the past few years sure put a big bill out there for us to pay. GW's out there on a limb. If he can liberate Iraq as (I believe he has) Afghanistan, long term, it may have been worth it.

 

[Melensdad]

Yet, while he is a two term president (legit or not some would argue) he has lied and bumbled (my opinion, of course) through his presidency.

Bonehead

Bumbled? Yup I totally agree with that. Its called Iraq.

Lied? I guess I have not seen that. I have seen that he was fed lies, and he believe them, as did the leaders of most other nations. He repeated those lies. He based a war on them. I don't consider that a lie that he told. I do consider that he made the wrong decision with regard to Iraq.

I totally support Afganistan. I support his immegration proposals, his stance on drilling in ANWR, most of his positions on guns. Etc.

 

[DaveNay]

Are we talking about Kerry here? Seems to me you are saying the same thing that you so boldly defended Kerry on.

I have never boldy defended Kerry. Did I vote for him? Yes. Did I vote for Bush? No. Twice.

 

[Melensdad]

Dave, it strikes me that you support Kerry about as stongly as I support Bush. HA!

 

[bczoom]

With regard to how I view a president, or any individual for that matter, I like to separate out whom I "like" with whom I "respect".

Interesting point. If I may segue for a minute. I know it's about the previous president but when I saw Clinton playing the sax on SNL, I thought "hey, I might like this guy" but in the same train of thought, I thought "the President on SNL??? WTF!!" and he lost a lot of my respect points.

 

[Melensdad]

Interesting point. If I may segue for a minute. I know it's about the previous president but when I saw Clinton playing the sax on SNL, I thought "hey, I might like this guy" but in the same train of thought, I thought "the President on SNL??? WTF!!" and he lost a lot of my respect points.

Ditto the Boxers or Briefs thing on MTV. And I liked GHW Bush's answer to that question. It was basically one that said that asking the question dimishes the respect of the office of the President and answering it is worse. So we still don't know, and that is the way it should be.

With regards to Kerry, that guy is a certifiable liar. Can't respect a liar. I can like his choice of women (he married rich) but while I like that, I don't like him because of the lies he tells on too many issues (not just limited to guns). So I can't like a liar and I can't respect one either.

GWBush seems like a likable guy. I guess I have some modest level of respect for him too. But I don't really like some of his positions or decisions.

 

[DaveNay]

Dave, it strikes me that you support Kerry about as stongly as I support Bush. HA!

Precisely! We both voted for what would have been (in our own opoinions) the lesser of two evils.

It actaully is kinda sad that it has become a process of lowest common denominator.

 

[DaveNay]

Interesting point. If I may segue for a minute. I know it's about the previous president but when I saw Clinton playing the sax on SNL, I thought "hey, I might like this guy" but in the same train of thought, I thought "the President on SNL??? WTF!!" and he lost a lot of my respect points.

Sort of like G.W. doing the United Way commercials on the radio? Those kind of irritate me (not so much the person himself, but the President doing commercials for a private organization.)

 

[Draddogs]

DavwNay, your are truly a man of conviction.

 

[DaveNay]

DavwNay, your are truly a man of conviction.

Huh?!

 

[bczoom]

With regards to Kerry, that guy is a certifiable liar. Can't respect a liar. I can like his choice of women (he married rich) but while I like that, I don't like him because of the lies he tells on too many issues (not just limited to guns). So I can't like a liar and I can't respect one either.

GWBush seems like a likable guy. I guess I have some modest level of respect for him too. But I don't really like some of his positions or decisions.

Bob,

Out of principle, we need to keep the subject on GW. I'm guilty too but want to bring the thread back on subject. I can't stand it when people change the subject to dodge the question/subject/issue at hand because they can't defend or discuss it logically/factually/reasonably.

 

[XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq]

Nope, Bush is not a liar. This whole "he lied" thing is just a democratic campaign slander that they use to reinforce many of the other lies about the republicans that they use. Basically, I see it as name calling - it's all kind of infantile.

Bush has had some very difficult decisions to make in his presidency. Life is rarely black or white although we would all prefer to think of it in that manner. I don't envy anyone in the position of President. Clinton was OK - he could have been worse. IMO, Bush was the lesser of two evils in the last two elections. In my books the last "good" president was Reagan and he took a beating from the media and democrats during his presidency.

Politics sucks. The world would be much better with me in a supreme dictatorship!

 

[BoneheadNW]

Nope, Bush is not a liar. This whole "he lied" thing is just a democratic campaign slander that they use to reinforce many of the other lies about the republicans that they use. Basically, I see it as name calling - it's all kind of infantile.

Why is it only name calling and infantile when it is said about your candidate? And "democratic campaign slander"? Republicans to not do the exact same thing? As Dave stated in either the Kerry thread:

Is <$POLITICIAN_NAME> a liar? Does a bear $hit in the woods? Duh! Next question.

Bonehead

 

[BoneheadNW]

I don't know or care of your political convictions just would like some actual fact instead of a gut feeling that one is lying or not. The same thing happened in the Kerry thread.

We have a hard time debating when our political convictions cloud clear thinking and good oral communication on a subject that seems to have every body up in arms.

Dont' tell me-you want to know what my debating qualifications are-right?


Bonehead

 

[OkeeDon]

I just did a fairly exhaustive Google search, starting with the heading "Bush lies". I found lots of information and examples. However, after extensive reading, I have to agree with Bob. Bush, himself, is not a liar in the generally accepted manner. Oh, he tells lots of lies, but he believes they're true.

Also, what most web sites identified as Bush Lies turned out to be Cheney, or Ari Fleischer, or Rumsfeld, or Condi, or Rove, or someone else in the administration doing the lying for Bush. Whenever it was an outright lie, it was always someone else. They do a good job of giving Bush deniability.

But, as most here have agreed, most Presidents lie to one degree or another. It goes with the territory. As Bonehead suggested, the choice is whether it is better to have a liar or an idiot for President.

Let me delve a little further into idiocy. I'm not talking abouit academic prowess; both Kerry and Bush had similar college grades (Gore's were better, and Clinton's were off the chart). I'm talking aobut common sense, street smarts and gullibility. Maybe that's a better term for Bush than idiot, he's gullible. He has bragged that he doesn't read much and never reads newspapers; he just isn't aware of the real world. He apparently wouldn't know a fact if it rose up and smacked him in the ass.

Have you noticed that he characterizes everything as "hard work"? Thinking is at the top of that list...

Nope, the dorky little wanker isn't a liar; he isn't smart enough to lie. The question remains, should he be commander in chief? In my opinion, his mishandling of the Iraq lunacy borders on treason and murder, and is an impeachable offense.

 

[Melensdad]

Nope, the dorky little wanker isn't a liar; he isn't smart enough to lie. The question remains, should he be commander in chief? In my opinion, his mishandling of the Iraq lunacy borders on treason and murder, and is an impeachable offense.

Don, I've got to admit that up until the very last paragraph, I was in total agreement with you.

But dub-ya has done nothing that is impeachable, further he's done nothing that borders on treason and murder. I do totally DISagree with his decision to go into Iraq, but he had the right to make the decision and I believe it is a completely legal decision authorized by congress and within the international laws that I could find. I think it was a wrong decision, but he did what he thought was best. I think it sucks. I would not have done it. But it was not my decision to make, nor did I have the power to make it or stop it.

But Kerry, that man is a liar. In his deeds and in his words. To me that makes Kerry far worse than Bush in every measurement.

 

[Gwill]

Nope, Bush is not a liar. This whole "he lied" thing is just a democratic campaign slander that they use to reinforce many of the other lies about the republicans that they use. Basically, I see it as name calling - it's all kind of infantile.

That's certainly true. It's a poor tactic to accuse someone of lying when one simply disagrees. Those shouting the loudest about lies have a hard time really quoting anything GW has said that is actually a lie, and not a simple difference of opinion. While shouting the loudest they overlook the real facts. The previous administration was based on certifiable lies that most seem to overlook. The worst lies are the ones taken under a solemn oath, as clinton did on several occasions... starting with the first one I'm aware of. He made a solemn oath while running for Governor of AR to finish his term if elected, and was elected partly based on that oath. Shortly after being elected he began his campaign for the Presidency.

Has everyone forgotten? Has everyone forgotten clinton's finger pointing denial on TV? That's what a lie really looks like. That's why he was disbarred and fined.

 

[Durwood RIP]

Has everyone forgotten? Has everyone forgotten clinton's finger pointing denial on TV? That's what a lie really looks like. That's why he was disbarred and fined.

You're forgetting something George and that is it's ok to lie under oath if your a Democrat as long as it's nothing important like sex. You know, it's ok to get hummers and lie about it while Bin Laden is running free. What a mess Clinton left GW to clean up.

Dur

 

[Gwill]

You're forgetting something George and that is it's ok to lie under oath if your a Democrat as long as it's nothing important like sex. You know, it's ok to get hummers and lie about it while Bin Laden is running free. What a mess Clinton left GW to clean up.

Dur

Aside from the sex, clinton also made the same promise that GHW Bush made re: taxes, except he didn't say "read my lips". It wasn't long before he gave us the LARGEST TAX INCREASE IN HISTORY. The senate voted a tie and algore cast the deciding vote. He later said it wasn't possible to balance the budget and vetoed balanced budgets twice and shut down the government before finally passing one. Then he (and all his dem enablers) took credit for what they tried so hard to prevent. Maybe those weren't lies, but they sure were tinkering with the truth.

 

[OkeeDon]

...while Bin Laden is running free. What a mess Clinton left GW to clean up.

First, you need to get a few more facts. The Clinton administration ended up making Osama bin Laden their primary goal. They had a lot of resources searching for him, and they kept looking for opportunities to get rid of him. There were several bombing missions, in Sudan and Afghanistan in particular, with the specific goal of getting bin Laden, There were several more that were pulled at the last second when it was impossible to determine if he was present.

It's a documented fact that during the transition, the Clinton folks did their best to educate the Bush folks about bin Laden, but they were largely ignored. They were ignored for the worst kind of reason; the Bush folks figured that if the Clinton folks were interested, it must be wrong. Typical, they (Republicans) have a history of cutting off their nose to spite their face. Of course, they learned better on 9/11, which might have been prevented if they had paid more attention.

Now, if you want to talk about documented messes that one President leaves another, let's look at Bush Sr.'s failure to remove Saddam in '92; in my opinion (and I said so at the time), that was one of the biggest goofs ever seen, and is probably the REAL reason why Bush Sr. wasn;t r-elected. Also, it was Bush Sr., after the election and during the transition, who put our troops in Somalia without any real plan. It was almost as if he did it deliberately to get Clinton in trouble.

The real point is that all this mud-slinging is such a stupid waste of time. There are boogey men in botrh parties; there are honorable men in both parties; both parties lie; both parties make mistakes; there is no point, little to be gained, and a lot to be lost with all this bashing.

Please note, once again, that all I have ever done is respond; I have never started a thread to bash the "other" side.