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How steep will a snowcat climb ???
- Thread starter BigAl
- Start date
Lyndon
Bronze Member
That is correct, just read about it in Lindburgh's biography a couple day's ago. >
We are into the Long day's already , the sun was up around 4;30 this morning. But it's still around zero out.
As to the Cylinder head temperature, you probably only need one or a set of those if you plan to Fly at various altitudes. In conjunction with that you would also want adjustment for the fuel/air ratio and the spark advance both from the "pilot's" Seat. For a Snow Trac usually Oil Temp & Pressure are good enough.
We are into the Long day's already , the sun was up around 4;30 this morning. But it's still around zero out.
As to the Cylinder head temperature, you probably only need one or a set of those if you plan to Fly at various altitudes. In conjunction with that you would also want adjustment for the fuel/air ratio and the spark advance both from the "pilot's" Seat. For a Snow Trac usually Oil Temp & Pressure are good enough.
On Donner Summit
New member
I'm responding to the original question in the thread...which is a tough one. So much depends on the particular machine and snow conditions. A modern groomer with good ice caulks might climb 45* (if you have the cajonas). Add fresh snow to the mix and that might drop to 25* tiller & blade up. If its too steep we go around the easy way and make down passes. Frequently in soft snow that means an uncontrolled slide on the steeps. From a personal use perspective, my Tucker climbs much better than my friend's Imp especially in freshies. Ditto for angle of attack. I've pulled my Tucker out of some deep holes...just climbs right on out.
BTW, over a foot of fresh in the past couple of days...can't wait for Spring.
BTW, over a foot of fresh in the past couple of days...can't wait for Spring.
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Lyndon
Bronze Member
Of all the machines I've owned and/or operated, the Snow Master and Trac Master were definately the most aggressive. I believe it has to do with the Power to Weight ratio and the type of drive/steering. Machines with differential braking for steering were the poor preformers. A stock Snow Trac was runner up with a lot of other brands even with it's shallow cleats. :>
At a river crossing near Fairbanks, on the Chena River sat a wide variety of "Track Rigs". What was involved was first fording the river, then climbing a steep hill. The Bombardier, Tucker Sno-Cat, and Thiokol all forded the stream well, but none were able to climb the hill. They all wanted to slide off sideways. Along comes this guy in a Snow Master, navigates the stream, trots right up the hill with no problem, definitely a more aggressive machine. The operators of the other machines could be heard cursing the operator of the Snow Master, as he was dragging behind his machine 2 Moose, Not On a Sled!>
I am quite sure that a lot of it had to do with the Snow Master's grousers. The alternating herring bone pattern holds well on side hills. I don't remember ever seeing it on any other machine. >
There is one snow condition, melting, slushy, 'corn snow' about the consistency of a Snow Cone or what come out of the Slurpy machine that will hang up All the makes. >
On a head on approach an old Tucker 443, with steel tracks climbed almost as high up a steep hill as the Snow Master and definitely out climbed various newer machines. It also is a light machine. An Un-laden Snow Master with a roller set puts down 4/10 of a pound per square foot, which is less than the advertised value of any other machine and is less that a person on Snow Shoes or Skis. >
On an acent up Mt. Baker, in the Cascades, the Trac Master out preformed 75% of the snow mobiles. Some 'hot-rod' snowmobiles, with 2 to 3 inch paddles could take a running start on a steep hill, but eventually they spun out of stalled out. The Trac Master could out climb them even at it's slow 2 or 3 mph speed in deep, unpacked powder. >
The Bombardier Bombi's literature claims it will climb a 60% grade. Aside from the snow burm at the entrance to snow parks I never took one over anything that steep. I wouldn't have wanted to as the machine acted as though it might roll over end for end.>
The Bombardier J5 also claims 60% grade in it's literature. Since mine had obviously been is some altercations, and after spending 3 years of hard labor making it 'Show Worthy', I never put it to the test. >
The Bombardier B12 wasn't even in the running. With it's Skis in front it was easy enough to get stuck and then wouldn't back up. Where it Shined was in it's speed over level ground. With a 6.2 Liter, normally asperated diesel, it could hedge up around 40 MPH. but it definitely wasn't an "off-road" rig.
They just called me on the radio" 559 Lyndon" so I need to head out and witness some "Hypot Testing" (High Voltage Die-electric withstand test) at "L-Pad" Later.
At a river crossing near Fairbanks, on the Chena River sat a wide variety of "Track Rigs". What was involved was first fording the river, then climbing a steep hill. The Bombardier, Tucker Sno-Cat, and Thiokol all forded the stream well, but none were able to climb the hill. They all wanted to slide off sideways. Along comes this guy in a Snow Master, navigates the stream, trots right up the hill with no problem, definitely a more aggressive machine. The operators of the other machines could be heard cursing the operator of the Snow Master, as he was dragging behind his machine 2 Moose, Not On a Sled!>
I am quite sure that a lot of it had to do with the Snow Master's grousers. The alternating herring bone pattern holds well on side hills. I don't remember ever seeing it on any other machine. >
There is one snow condition, melting, slushy, 'corn snow' about the consistency of a Snow Cone or what come out of the Slurpy machine that will hang up All the makes. >
On a head on approach an old Tucker 443, with steel tracks climbed almost as high up a steep hill as the Snow Master and definitely out climbed various newer machines. It also is a light machine. An Un-laden Snow Master with a roller set puts down 4/10 of a pound per square foot, which is less than the advertised value of any other machine and is less that a person on Snow Shoes or Skis. >
On an acent up Mt. Baker, in the Cascades, the Trac Master out preformed 75% of the snow mobiles. Some 'hot-rod' snowmobiles, with 2 to 3 inch paddles could take a running start on a steep hill, but eventually they spun out of stalled out. The Trac Master could out climb them even at it's slow 2 or 3 mph speed in deep, unpacked powder. >
The Bombardier Bombi's literature claims it will climb a 60% grade. Aside from the snow burm at the entrance to snow parks I never took one over anything that steep. I wouldn't have wanted to as the machine acted as though it might roll over end for end.>
The Bombardier J5 also claims 60% grade in it's literature. Since mine had obviously been is some altercations, and after spending 3 years of hard labor making it 'Show Worthy', I never put it to the test. >
The Bombardier B12 wasn't even in the running. With it's Skis in front it was easy enough to get stuck and then wouldn't back up. Where it Shined was in it's speed over level ground. With a 6.2 Liter, normally asperated diesel, it could hedge up around 40 MPH. but it definitely wasn't an "off-road" rig.
They just called me on the radio" 559 Lyndon" so I need to head out and witness some "Hypot Testing" (High Voltage Die-electric withstand test) at "L-Pad" Later.
On Donner Summit
New member
To be clear I was using * to indicate degrees. That is, 45* slope = 100% grade.
I am unclear on your PSI theory, but I am intrigued. In my experience, my snowmobile has a lower PSI than my Tucker and gets stuck in deep snow that the Tucker laughs at. My point is that I do not think low PSI is the be-all-end-all solution in deep fresh snow.
I am unclear on your PSI theory, but I am intrigued. In my experience, my snowmobile has a lower PSI than my Tucker and gets stuck in deep snow that the Tucker laughs at. My point is that I do not think low PSI is the be-all-end-all solution in deep fresh snow.
Lyndon
Bronze Member
I'm no real expert, but I have noticed that at Ski Areas, the really big groomers, some like 18 feet, from track to track, like piston bullys( don't know how to spell Kossborher?) and Bombardier's seem to have little difficulty even on steep terraine. With that much square area for a footprint they are likely a very low PSI machine. Alyeska's (the Pipeline) Tucker's were more than twice the weight of my 443, yet they spectacularly out preformed a bombardier Ski Dozer that had massive tracks with much taller cleats than the Tucker's. Personally I favor the Tucker. One or more of our members Grooms professionally it seems that we should be seeking their opinions, they would be the real 'Pros'.
Part of the problem with a snowmobile vs your Tucker may be the power of the snowmobile and its ability to very easily spin its track and bury itself. While a snowcat can dig itself into the snow, it is all too easy with a high powered sled to bury itself in the snow.
To my inexperienced mind, the light pressure of a snowcat (low psi) combined with high torque and low track speeds keep it on top of the snow. The ability to climb a steep grade is going to have to be somehow related to the relative torque applied to the tracks (relative to the overall weight and the low psi). The Snow Trac/Snow Master's "variator" is known to be an efficient transmitter of power from the engine to the tracks. Brake steer and hydraulic steering both rob HP from the engine that cannot efficiently be used by the tracks. They may be able to provide plenty of torque to the tracks, but they would need higher initial HP. Many of the modern ski slope groomers have 300 to 500 horsepower, I've heard about some that have even more.
NorthernRedneck
Well-known member
I don't have any experience on the older machines but here's a few pics of some of the hills on our trail system and the problems they create when hauling a drag.
First, our lamtrac breaking trail uphill. I'm not sure on the slope in terms of grade but I would say it starts off at roughly 50-60 degrees then half way up goes over a hump and levels out to roughly 30 dgrees. The Lamtrac had no problem without a drag on but even with a hardpacked base the next day, it was a little challenging. It was hauling a drag on the second pass the next day.
Here's a pic of our BR160 spun out on the hill after several attempts. I find it easier with the lamtrac being a four track machine to climb hills as with the BR160, it tends to side-slip on hills and to correct this, you end up locking up the one track to steer then you only have one track gripping.
This next one is another hill we have on our trail system. It starts off at about a 30 degree slope at the bottom then goes to about 45-50 degrees halfway up. I usually have no problem with this hill breaking trail from the bottom with a drag on behind. The first pass we make each year is always the hardest as there is no base to grip to but we have no problem.
First, our lamtrac breaking trail uphill. I'm not sure on the slope in terms of grade but I would say it starts off at roughly 50-60 degrees then half way up goes over a hump and levels out to roughly 30 dgrees. The Lamtrac had no problem without a drag on but even with a hardpacked base the next day, it was a little challenging. It was hauling a drag on the second pass the next day.
Here's a pic of our BR160 spun out on the hill after several attempts. I find it easier with the lamtrac being a four track machine to climb hills as with the BR160, it tends to side-slip on hills and to correct this, you end up locking up the one track to steer then you only have one track gripping.
This next one is another hill we have on our trail system. It starts off at about a 30 degree slope at the bottom then goes to about 45-50 degrees halfway up. I usually have no problem with this hill breaking trail from the bottom with a drag on behind. The first pass we make each year is always the hardest as there is no base to grip to but we have no problem.
On Donner Summit
New member
Nice pics Groomerguy. Agreed on the 4track vs 2track principle. In response to Lyndon I do drive a groomer professionally. And I agree with you. The PSI is roughly the same on both the Bombardier BR275 and my Tucker 2000. In deep snow (and without blading) the Tucker is superior. Once the snow gets above the tracks on the groomers, it's pretty much all over in terms of climbing. Granted, that takes 3 feet or more of fresh untracked powder but that happens here all too often. I only had trouble with the Tucker once. We had a storm set drop 7 feet in 6 days when I was out of town. I came home and was unable to move the Tucker more than 100 yards before she started listing to one side. (I had all the fuel in the DS tank and none in the PS tank). I don't know if I would have made it up the hill with a more even weight distribution. As it was I had to wait 2 days for the snow to set up.
I agree with B Skurka on the sled. But I still think that there is such a thing as too low PSI on a snow cat. All of the big machines (2 and 4 track) seem to run 1 to 2 psi. I suspect there is a reason relating to traction.
I agree with B Skurka on the sled. But I still think that there is such a thing as too low PSI on a snow cat. All of the big machines (2 and 4 track) seem to run 1 to 2 psi. I suspect there is a reason relating to traction.
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NorthernRedneck
Well-known member
The main problem we have with steeper slopes(doesn't matter which machine I'm using) is refraining from giving it too much fuel on the pedal and spinning the tracks. I find it a real pain trying to climg with the BR160 even on a hardpacked trail as it is a stick steer system with two levers located in the general vacinity of the family jewels when I'm sitting in the driver's seat. The Br160 has a tendency to stall out if you give it too much fuel going uphill. The engine will shut right down if I push just a bit too hard on the steering levers or fuel pedal.
With the Lamtrac, the biggest problem I find is keeping it climbing without spinning. I've been stuck on a few hills from spinning out and lossing traction. To keep traction in the hills and to keep the tracks from spinning, the Lamtrac is equipped with low a range/high range lever. I just set it to low range before even starting a climb. It also has a selectable 4x4 that I use to keep all the tracks gripping. So, in low range and 4x4, it is much easier to keep the tracks from spinning resulting in being able to climb some pretty steep terrain.
We made the mistake of keeping it in hgih range one time while climbing a hill and spun it down to the ground. It wasn't stuck from the amount of snow but from a lack of traction. After 3 hours of choice words, we finally managed to make the climb only to run out of fuel 10 miles out of town. We were on a 16 hour run at the time.
With the Lamtrac, the biggest problem I find is keeping it climbing without spinning. I've been stuck on a few hills from spinning out and lossing traction. To keep traction in the hills and to keep the tracks from spinning, the Lamtrac is equipped with low a range/high range lever. I just set it to low range before even starting a climb. It also has a selectable 4x4 that I use to keep all the tracks gripping. So, in low range and 4x4, it is much easier to keep the tracks from spinning resulting in being able to climb some pretty steep terrain.
We made the mistake of keeping it in hgih range one time while climbing a hill and spun it down to the ground. It wasn't stuck from the amount of snow but from a lack of traction. After 3 hours of choice words, we finally managed to make the climb only to run out of fuel 10 miles out of town. We were on a 16 hour run at the time.
Snowcat Operations
Active member
I have seen guys just keep going when the tracks start to dig in. I am not sure what the deal was. I dont know if they could sense or feel the tracks spinning but as soon as you feel it you need to instantly back off the throttle. Also sometimes you just need to hit a hill more than once to get up and over. The VMC we use to have is a perfect example of that method. Go up as far as you can and as soon as you stop forward momentum back out. Now you have packed the snow and you should get a bit farther next time. Give it all hell and slowly back out as you reach the limit of your forward motion. On the Snow Master it just seems to never give out. Even when you know its not going to make it it just chugs right up and over! Power can sometimes be your worst enemy if you dont know how to drive a snowcat.
On Donner Summit
New member
We call it augering in and it sucks....just like on a snowmobile. It's a fine line to know when to stop...stop too early and you might have made it....stop too late and you've made a mess of the corduroy.
Groomerguy, FYI, the newer Bombis and Pisten Bullies have a computer engine control that prevents them from stalling out the motor. What year is that BR160 and are the sticks cable control or fly-by-wire? The newer ones of course are fly-by-wire.
Groomerguy, FYI, the newer Bombis and Pisten Bullies have a computer engine control that prevents them from stalling out the motor. What year is that BR160 and are the sticks cable control or fly-by-wire? The newer ones of course are fly-by-wire.
NorthernRedneck
Well-known member
1996 BR160.........cable control. It has the throttle lever beside my right leg when I'm sitting in it. It also has the fuel pedal on the floor. I find the easiest way to run that thing is to rev it up to around 1700rpm then set the throttle lever.(sort of like cruise control.) Then, you can regulate how fast you go with the steering levers and not have to worry about the fuel pedal. But, if you push the controls too far forward while climbing, the engine will bogg down and die. Then, if you pull back to much, the drives won't engage. It's a real fine line between stalling it and keeping the drives engaged while climbing. I stalled the thing four times the first time I went out with it this winter before I got the hang of it.
On Donner Summit
New member
We run the BR275s (and the BR350) pretty much the same way except we pin the throttle control at full RPM. We run at full RPM because the tiller takes a lot of power. They also have a track speed control which comes in handy when operating around lifts but is normally maxed out too.
TurboTouring
New member
This machine would i like too see i deep snow....it was a cool thing!
http://bil.feber.se//feber/art/13553/bandfeber/
http://bil.feber.se//feber/art/13553/bandfeber/
On Donner Summit
New member
Snowcat Operations
Active member
Interesting.
Robert
Member
here is a video of a pisten bully climbing a steep hill, looks to be real by the angle of the rubber mat hainging off the back.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znhe8D3Btqs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znhe8D3Btqs
Snowcat Operations
Active member
You see the cable? That is a swivel type of winch. They hook into a purpose built anchor and the cat is able to go downalmost vertically. When they need to come back up the top part swivels around and up thay go or the simply reverse the winch and back up. The last few seconds are not of a cat climbing. That is ment to fool you.
Snowcat Operations
Active member
No. Thats the bogus part.
mtntopper
Back On Track
Camera angle and how it is being held can be very deceiving. This pic was taken last spring while climbing with the LMC 1200. The angle was considerably steeper than the camera portrays. The camera lens was looking level into the hill and not up the hill.
mtntopper
Back On Track
Oh, the LMC made it! We just backed up to try and get a pic of the steepness and the pic did not turn out very well. The hill is on a snow cat trail about 3/4 of a mile behind our home that we use often. I am sure a Kristi would of powered out or dug a trench....to China or Elk City....
Bobcat
Je Suis Charlie Hebdo
Yeah, yeah. And the one that got away was how big?:Raised_Ey
Snowcat Operations
Active member
This is getting good!
Snowcat Operations
Active member
Lets see how fast "A" Kristi can fly off a cliff! Of course this will be after an extensive test of its mud bogging capability.
Besides my Snow Master is nice and cozy in its "Garage" which is better than I can say about your Kristi!
Besides my Snow Master is nice and cozy in its "Garage" which is better than I can say about your Kristi!