Best use of a snowcat?

[1boringguy]

If it follows you home you can keep it, right?

 

[1boringguy]

Covered 42 miles the weekend, no problems.

 

[Northcoast]

That's one great cat! Hard to find that model with a plow.

 

[1boringguy]

That's one great cat! Hard to find that model with a plow.

Thanks Northcoast,

I've learned a little over the past year or so about what I believe are the desirable qualities for me. This one had a lot of them.
Being an 89 it has some of the nicer things of the later models, like one piece de-icer wheels, one piece tilt hood, and wide cab.

For running gear, of course the six roller tracks, the heavy 2 1/2" transfer case, Spicer 70s, the Alison 545 trans, and the 360 Chrysler engine. I'd wish for a Cummins if I was having all my druthers, but was surprised at how not disappointed I was with the 360 on the first weekend out. Anyway I have a 6bt that would mate to the allison (good thing about the allison) if I decided to. On a side note, 42 miles burned about 37 gals with the 360, my perkins in a two track has been over 2 mpg.

In the beginning I had thought I wanted a three door 43, but having the 10 man Skidozer and then the 2 man and a toddler Patrol, we don't generally haul that many people and being able to haul fuel cans, tools, survival gear, ect outside the cab is better for me. Funny thing is this is a three door 44, only has a rear door on the driver's side, think I'll be fine with that though. Don't know how many of those were made, probably not many. This one was ordered with the factory blade according to the build sheet.

The hour meter reads 350, for what that's worth, but it does look 30 years old. A fun fact about this cat, BC Tel order two at the same time, one with the 360, one with a diesel, they both left Tucker with the same vin number, so I have a new vin tag in hand from Tucker (the previous owner hadn't installed it yet) with that same vin with -g after it. Clyde at Tucker looked it up and verified that for me. Idaho doesn't title a snowcat so that probably save me some hassle about that.

Needs paint, new headliner, maybe shim a couple track carriers, but I think this is going to be a good Tucker for me.

 

[Blackfoot Tucker]

Thanks Northcoast,

I've learned a little over the past year or so about what I believe are the desirable qualities for me. This one had a lot of them.
Being an 89 it has some of the nicer things of the later models, like one piece de-icer wheels, one piece tilt hood, and wide cab.

For running gear, of course the six roller tracks, the heavy 2 1/2" transfer case, Spicer 70s, the Alison 545 trans, and the 360 Chrysler engine. I'd wish for a Cummins if I was having all my druthers, but was surprised at how not disappointed I was with the 360 on the first weekend out. Anyway I have a 6bt that would mate to the allison (good thing about the allison) if I decided to. On a side note, 42 miles burned about 37 gals with the 360, my perkins in a two track has been over 2 mpg.




In the beginning I had thought I wanted a three door 43, but having the 10 man Skidozer and then the 2 man and a toddler Patrol, we don't generally haul that many people and being able to haul fuel cans, tools, survival gear, ect outside the cab is better for me. Funny thing is this is a three door 44, only has a rear door on the driver's side, think I'll be fine with that though. Don't know how many of those were made, probably not many. This one was ordered with the factory blade according to the build sheet.

The hour meter reads 350, for what that's worth, but it does look 30 years old. A fun fact about this cat, BC Tel order two at the same time, one with the 360, one with a diesel, they both left Tucker with the same vin number, so I have a new vin tag in hand from Tucker (the previous owner hadn't installed it yet) with that same vin with -g after it. Clyde at Tucker looked it up and verified that for me. Idaho doesn't title a snowcat so that probably save me some hassle about that.

Needs paint, new headliner, maybe shim a couple track carriers, but I think this is going to be a good Tucker for me.

Congratulations 1BG!!! 1644's are my favorite Tucker model, and finding one with a factory blade is Uber-rare!!!

At only 350 hours (if that's accurate) the carriers should not need shimming.

One thing you didn't mention that machine having (though it does) are the damper wheels in lieu of UHMW track slides. Much quieter and nicer.

I'm blown away by your contentment with the 360. Scott and I took the '86 1544 out (360 and Allison AT545) for some testing a few weekends ago and our thoughts were different. We've been considering upgrading the engine to fuel injection. But while that would improve the starting and general driveability of the engine, at the end of the day it's still the same engine and though you've spent a chunk of money... it doesn't have any more oomph.

Scott and I have yet to find (or build) a Tucker with too much power...but we're trying.

 

[1boringguy]

Congratulations 1BG!!! 1644's are my favorite Tucker model, and finding one with a factory blade is Uber-rare!!!

At only 350 hours (if that's accurate) the carriers should not need shimming.

One thing you didn't mention that machine having (though it does) are the damper wheels in lieu of UHMW track slides. Much quieter and nicer.

I'm blown away by your contentment with the 360. Scott and I took the '86 1544 out (360 and Allison AT545) for some testing a few weekends ago and our thoughts were different. We've been considering upgrading the engine to fuel injection. But while that would improve the starting and general driveability of the engine, at the end of the day it's still the same engine and though you've spent a chunk of money... it doesn't have any more oomph.

Scott and I have yet to find (or build) a Tucker with too much power...but we're trying.

Thanks BFT, I hold your opinion in high regard.

Yes not sure, or stuck on the 350 hours, but mostly it seems in pretty good shape, and I'll take care of whatever I find is needed from this point. Kind of thinking this will be the one my son inherits someday, because old Tucker parts will surely be easier to find than discontinued electronics as in the Patrol or similar, 20-30 years from now.

Remember I don't have the experience that you guys do with snowcats. My two experiences are 124 hp, 241 ft/lbs in the Skidozer, and 115 hp, 288 ft/lbs in the Patrol. At 200 hp, and I think about 290 ft/lbs it just didn't compare as poorly as I imagined it might from different comments I've read. Was running on roads at 5-7,000 feet, only a few very steep spots, but rarely shifted down to 3rd.

Don't get me wrong, I like horsepower and I like torque even better, I just wasn't as disappointed as I thought I might be. I was looking and the cummins that I have, we took out of a 2002 D3500 we had, so that would be the 24v which should have been about 235 hp, 465 ft/lbs. That would be a significant upgrade. We'll see if I talk myself into that before I paint it. I might end up with an extended hood Tucker yet.

 

[1boringguy]

And oh yes, I knew I was forgetting something. Damper wheels are a good improvement of the later years too.

 

[Blackfoot Tucker]

Thanks BFT, I hold your opinion in high regard.

Yes not sure, or stuck on the 350 hours, but mostly it seems in pretty good shape, and I'll take care of whatever I find is needed from this point. Kind of thinking this will be the one my son inherits someday, because old Tucker parts will surely be easier to find than discontinued electronics as in the Patrol or similar, 20-30 years from now.

Remember I don't have the experience that you guys do with snowcats. My two experiences are 124 hp, 241 ft/lbs in the Skidozer, and 115 hp, 288 ft/lbs in the Patrol. At 200 hp, and I think about 290 ft/lbs it just didn't compare as poorly as I imagined it might from different comments I've read. Was running on roads at 5-7,000 feet, only a few very steep spots, but rarely shifted down to 3rd.

Don't get me wrong, I like horsepower and I like torque even better, I just wasn't as disappointed as I thought I might be. I was looking and the cummins that I have, we took out of a 2002 D3500 we had, so that would be the 24v which should have been about 235 hp, 465 ft/lbs. That would be a significant upgrade. We'll see if I talk myself into that before I paint it. I might end up with an extended hood Tucker yet.

WBJ1 very kindly returned the machine from Colorado with a full tank of gas... and we had to use it.

I think we were running at about 7,000-9,000' in elevation. We unloaded at a snowmobile parking lot that was hugely crowded and took a trail initially that was horrifically wash boarded by snowmobile traffic. Then once we broke out of the trees, I was surprised how tracked up the area was. This was on a Saturday, and it had snowed Thursday, but you would think the snow was at least a week or two old by the number of tracks.

I brought an avalanche probe to check the snow depth, and it was about four feet. I would say we spent 4-5% of the time in first gear climbing steep and deep hills, 55% in second gear (when in powder), 40% in third gear (downhill in powder, or on a packed trail-if flat) and maybe 1% in fourth, which required downhill on a packed trail, but not too many bumps from snowmobile traffic.

I have searched everywhere I can think of for ignition timing specs on both the 360 and 318 Industrial engines and have found exactly zilch. I have a Chrysler Industrial Engine factory service manual: lots of information but nada on ignition timing. I also have two 318 Operating Manuals and no specs there. It says "As shown on the individual engine specification sheet". I have all the Tucker supplied manuals for Thundercat to include the engine warranty registration card, but no timing specs...ARRRGH!

Scott and I experimented with different ignition timing settings trying to figure out the optimal setting, but we didn't see a significant difference. We previously re-jetted the carburetor with smaller jets, but might go down again. The 1544 came with a different transmission modulator setup than we have on Thundercat. We might borrow Thundercat's, and see if that improves the transmission shifting.

Everybody likes pics:

 

[1boringguy]

BFT,

First day there was no appreciable new snow, second day 4-6 inches of new wet snow.

I got the original engine manual that Tucker sent with this cat as well, but don't find any timing number given in it. I read it that there is supposed to be a spec sheet for each engine that gives the ignition timing for that particular engine. Because they timed them differently for different applications? Idk

If I get mine in the shop the next day or so I'll check the timing and let you know what it is. This one has electronic ignition, does yours?

 

[olympicorange]

… hello B/F/T,...… hope this helps,... this manual has tons of info,... probably more diagnostics than needed,... let me know if you would like more info,...

 

[LakeTucker]

I'd love one of these manuals if anyone knows of one for sale.

 

[Blackfoot Tucker]

BFT,

First day there was no appreciable new snow, second day 4-6 inches of new wet snow.

I got the original engine manual that Tucker sent with this cat as well, but don't find any timing number given in it. I read it that there is supposed to be a spec sheet for each engine that gives the ignition timing for that particular engine. Because they timed them differently for different applications? Idk

If I get mine in the shop the next day or so I'll check the timing and let you know what it is. This one has electronic ignition, does yours?

Thanks 1BG. I would really appreciate that.

Yes, the engine has the stock electronic ignition module. This engine has a Holley model 2245 2 BBL carburetor, and the velocity governor is still in place underneath. We might try removing that. The 318 Industrials I've had all came with Carter BBD 2 BBL carburetors.

I have opined in other threads that my guess is the governors came installed on Chrysler Industrial engines because they didn't know what application the the engines would be installed in. In some cases, an irrigation pump for example, the engines would run at a high power setting unattended for a long time. If the load went away the engine could over-rev and destroy itself. The velocity governor would prevent that.

I suspect removing the governor would void the engine warranty and so Tucker left them installed.

 

[Blackfoot Tucker]

… hello B/F/T,...… hope this helps,... this manual has tons of info,... probably more diagnostics than needed,... let me know if you would like more info,...

Thanks OO. Those look like the same manuals that came with Thundercat. Tons of information...but no timing specs. I appreciate your help.

 

[olympicorange]

Thanks OO. Those look like the same manuals that came with Thundercat. Tons of information...but no timing specs. I appreciate your help.

yw,...no worries. so what are the ''timing specs.'' you are looking for exactly,.... not the 16* BTDC,...etc. vacuum advance, centrifugal advance mechanism,....

 

[Blackfoot Tucker]

yw,...no worries. so what are the ''timing specs.'' you are looking for exactly,.... not the 16* BTDC,...etc. vacuum advance, centrifugal advance mechanism,....

OO,

Upon further examination, our manuals are different. I believe yours is newer, and has more information. But I note in yours references on some engine models to an engine ECU, Electronic Control Unit, as well as ESA Electronic Spark Advance. On the last page, it's a little blurry, but I see "Computer Part Number" and there are references to both a "temperature switch"and a "charge Temperature Sensor". None of the 318 powered 1980 model Tuckers, nor the 1986 360 powered Tucker I have are equipped with a computer or a temperature switch/charge temperature sensor.

I believe the systems in your manual are the "Electronic Lean Burn" and "Electronic Spark Control" and my Tucker(s) have the first generation electronic ignition system as depicted below.



[FONT=helvetica,arial]

Chrysler Electronic Ignition
[/FONT]
[FONT=helvetica,arial]
[/FONT]But your information prompted me to carefully scour my manual (which covers the Industrial 225, 318-360, 361-413-400-440 engines) and I found hidden away some timing specs!

[FONT=helvetica,arial]There are six different 318 2 BBL engines listed. Two are "light duty" and show 2º BTDC, two are shown as 318-1 HD and show 2º ATDC and the last two are 318-3 HD and show TDC. I think the engines Tucker used are the 318-1 variety.[/FONT]
[FONT=helvetica,arial]
[/FONT][FONT=helvetica,arial]There are five different 360 engines listed. The "light duty" shows 6º BTDC, and all the rest show TDC.
[/FONT]
[FONT=helvetica,arial]It will be interesting to see what 1BG's engine ignition timing is set at! [/FONT]

 

[olympicorange]

…… very good,... I 'll take another look to see if 1980-1986 is included,.. 2*BTDC doesn't seem like it would do much,... and ATDC would be horrible in a vehicular application.... somewhere between 8-12 BTDC seems more do-able . now if it was a s/b chevy ...it would take up to 16BTDC.... I've found the ''pick-up'' plates , in the dist., can loosen up , and do all kinds of funny things . to make you scratch your head.... also, is the coil showing any signs of oil weepage, or excessively hot after a short run, etc....

 

[olympicorange]

….. the ''ECU'' reference is the ignition spark control module... yours should be the LD unit ...spec. says +/- 2 degrees.... from TDC.... I believe my manual is a 1981 publication.....

 

[1boringguy]

BFT, OO,

My engine is set at base advance of 10 degrees btdc, and total advance of an additional 25-27 degrees as rpm comes up. Not enough marks and scale so I'm est that off of the 20 degrees of scale that is marked. Not sure if 10° is changed from the factory setting, because my engine also has an aftermarket electronic ignition box, could have been reset.

I stopped and chatted with my uncle today. My grandfather and him have owned an auto repair shop for 70+ years. He's always been a big Chrysler engine fan. Put an original 351 hemi in a jeep in high school, drag raced A gas with it. He built a pickup in the late 70s early 80s of tractor pulls with a 'Chrysler' engine, I think they ranked in the top 5 in the country back then. None of his books gave a timing number for the industrial engine, but he pointed out the truck engine was 10° +or- 2°. He said to watch and make sure advance came up correctly with the rpm. He also said he never felt wrong about adding 1° for every 1000 feet elevation above sea level.

 

[1boringguy]

Also mine doesn't have the governor on it at this point. Didn't come with it in '89, or someone took it off.

 

[Blackfoot Tucker]

OO and 1BG,

I sincerely thank you both for the information, and the considerable lengths you went to for that information! It is hugely helpful! 1BG, please also thank your uncle for his knowledge, wisdom and experience. I have great respect for "old school" mechanics - who were great diagnosticians as well as great mechanics.

I definitely want to make some adjustments to the 1544, and verify everything is up to snuff before Sun Valley.

 

[JimVT]

When you had mentioned rubber mounts (i thought as an electric insulating factor) with putting 12v hyd pump system on, I was just saying I had already added a 12v winch which of course isn't rubber mount. Just weren't sure if there might be a risk to the 24v hydrostatic drive control electronics by having the 12v not done properly. Same concern as along the lines of frying the electronics box by welding on the machine. The manual states that one should not only disconnect the electronic control box, but completely remove it from the machine to eliminate risk of damage while welding. So anyway I'm a little gun shy about what I might not be knowledgeable of in that regard. But again the machine comes with 24v and 12v systems for different purposes from the factory. But like a welder, a winch is moving a lot of electrons, as might an elec/hyd pump ......... so just asking if anyone has more knowledge of whether I should be concerned with what I've done with the winch in that regard.

I cut my pb in half and welded to back together and only unplugged the electrical stuff. nothing got damaged.

 

[GlacierSean]

Hey 1boringguy I was looking thru this thread and recognized your new cat. The orange one in the picture was for sale recently. Your new cat caught my eye. Did you find it thru the add for the orange cat or another way?

 

[1boringguy]

I cut my pb in half and welded to back together and only unplugged the electrical stuff. nothing got damaged.

Jim,

Thanks, I'm sure risk from an induced current is small and different electronics have different degrees of risk. I'm just not very knowledgeable about those risks, and figure prinoth put that in their manual to cover all bases. I'm kind of going with the winch anyway thinking it's not a huge risk in it.

 

[1boringguy]

OO and 1BG,

I sincerely thank you both for the information, and the considerable lengths you went to for that information! It is hugely helpful! 1BG, please also thank your uncle for his knowledge, wisdom and experience. I have great respect for "old school" mechanics - who were great diagnosticians as well as great mechanics.

I definitely want to make some adjustments to the 1544, and verify everything is up to snuff before Sun Valley.

YW, and look forward to seeing you and the 1544 in Sun Valley.

 

[1boringguy]

Hey 1boringguy I was looking thru this thread and recognized your new cat. The orange one in the picture was for sale recently. Your new cat caught my eye. Did you find it thru the add for the orange cat or another way?


View attachment 122474

No it was listed briefly on a fb site. Recall the particulars of the orange one? Diesel, 1644, 1744?

 

[GlacierSean]

Pretty sure it was a 1744. Pretty sure it had the Detroit in it. Described it to my friend "you'll never sneak up on anyone in that cat".

 

[1boringguy]

Pretty sure it was a 1744. Pretty sure it had the Detroit in it. Described it to my friend "you'll never sneak up on anyone in that cat".

I'm no kind of expert on Tucker, but guessing it was a diesel by the intake and exhaust. Not sure what dates Tucker made changes but the first photo shows the 1644 cab style with the large front door and smaller rear door as opposed to front and rear doors the same size. Also the rear of the hood is narrower than the wider cab. Also the one piece deicer wheel. That spec sheet is I believe dated 7/88.

The second pic shows the 1744 with the equal size doors front and rear and the rear of the hood same width as the cab. Not sure of the date of that spec sheet. Probably earlier because shows the older style deicer wheel though.

Again just guesses.

Yep, no sneaking home at 3AM with a Detroit

 

[Red130]

Best use of a snowcat? I'd say it is whatever you have done, are doing, or want to do next with your cat. Take your pick, there are no bad days. (Or.... very few.) A few pics from today. Nordic grooming with the PB130D.

 

[1boringguy]

Got to go play Saturday. Had rained down low, was ice and mud there. Nothing like Colorado, but above 6-7,000 ft was still pretty good.

 

[1boringguy]

Snowcats and hot springs, like peas and carrots.