# Seeking Snow Trac info and Kristy sighting.



## Reddog

Well, it seems I can't resist drinking the snowcat Koolaide and trying to have one on hand. After looking around a fair amount, I think I want the Snow Trac owners ranks. I see that Melensdad has sold his rig and it seemed to draw a fair amount in interest. 
  I have located another ST. It was "rebuilt" a few years back by someone in Oregon, or so I am being told. Overall very nice condition and the story seems to shake out given the condition of the cat. Paint and interior nice, tracks weathered, but usable, OE style grousers in very good shape. Sitting on a decent trailer. I have not yet driven the rig, but am told it operates as it should and will drive it prior to any final deal being made.
  So here is the question: What is it's fair market value? I know this is a difficult question and a real wild card, but if Melensdad's rig brought 9K, and this one is in similar condition, on a trailer, local, ready to go, what would seem fair?
  Not to be cryptic, but I'd like to hear opinions before I say what the saking price is. FWIW, it is more than $9K.
  My use for a cat is primarily limited to cruising groomers and occasional trips to a friends cabin that can be scheduled to avoid crazy deep powder. I am used to working on stuff (mechanic by trade) and am particularly fond of European technology. I think the SnowTrac would be a good fit for me.
 As an aside, I saw a topless Kristy  around Cimarron Colorado yesterday. It was on a trailer but looked like they were heading out and about. Anybody on the forum out exercising their Kristy yesterday??
  Thanks in advance for the input. Looking like a decent snow year for us, hope the same is true for the rest of you folks.
Doug in Gunnison


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## JimVT

what model? the two ban tracks are more desirable but now it seems anything sells.


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## Reddog

Hi Jim, Thanks for the reply. I'm embarassed to say I do not know enough about St's to know what model it is. I seem to recall it is a 1968 year model and did have 2 band tracks.
Doug in Gunnison


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## 300 H and H

Doug,

I have never owned any other, but I find them to be a very interesting machine mechanically. I do honestly believe they are well built for the task, and there are many running units out there, the newest being nearly 25 years young about now as proof. They are also one of the more attractive cats out there apearance wise. They really don't look old when restored. Many times I have been asked were there is a dealer who sells new ones at?? They have some thing that is timeless going on here....

That said I have a pretty nice one I bought in 2010 for 10K in Washington state. No tailer just the machine. Very nicely restored, and it spent alot of time at Lyndon's and had many OEM parts put into it's restoration. After 3 seasons of use, I don't think that I paid too much. Unfortunately like Melensdads machine it is now located outside of areas in the west or east that get more snow than we do. So maybe worth less here, but I don't think i would have any trouble selling mine here today for what I paid. In fact there are standing offers that have been made... 

Small in size and light in weight and very good on gas too. Roomy cabin for it's size. They cann't spot turn, and the turning radious increases in heavy wet snow. But for me this is not a big deal.

I think you would like the ST4 alot. Many have for many years. I hope this helps.

Best regards, Kirk


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## Reddog

Thanks for the reply and insight Kirk. Seems any well kept or refurbished cat will bring the kind of numbers you are talking about. There are always "deals" to be had that work out in various levels, but the market seems to dictate value and price based on condition and application. For me, this rig seems to fit both bills.
  One question I had is if anyone in the ST community has looked into putting a Subaru powerplant into one of these rigs. It is a very popular conversion in the VW van world and seems to work out from about every perspective. Adapters are readily available and a remote radiator would be the only challenge, and not much one at that. The rig I am considering is supposed to have a low hour rebuild in it and I try to subscribe to the KISS philosophy and "if it ain't broke, don't mess with it". Just wondering, more power, F.I. and hot water for interior heat might not be an alll together bad thing....


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## Reddog

Ooops, shoulda searched first. Old topic....

http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showthread.php?t=29889


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## 300 H and H

Doug,

For me I have a Mr Heat small ceramic propane heater in mine for use when the engine is off. On low it runs for many hours and keeps the cabin nice and toasty. I also turn it on when warming up the engine idling, and step into a warm cab at the start of the run. 

The Subaru transplant maybe ok. But now it isn't original either, not sure how that would be on resale. Also beware of additional weight on the nose. When you crests a ridge and the nose falls is when the front boggie trucks get damaged. A heavier front end would make this damage more likely.... 

If you purchase the machine and don't like it, I think you won't have much trouble finding a buyer either.... With the VW in it anyway.

Regards, Kirk


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## Reddog

Kirk,
  We had a Mr. Heater Buddy in the back of the LMC1500 and liked it. Actually, up front being too hot from the greenhouse effect of windows was more of an issue than being cold. The rig I am looking at supposedly still has a gas heater (Eberspacher I suppose) in it. I have dealt with these in hydronic applications and like them, finicky as they can be...
 I agree with the originality comment. Part of the appeal of this rig is it's unique nature, changing that would take away some of that appeal for me and others I am sure.


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## MNoutdoors RIP

As an aside, I saw a topless Kristy  around Cimarron Colorado yesterday. It was on a trailer but looked like they were heading out and about. 

A topless Kristi ( that must have been Big ALS if it was topless) 
I would have said Mainer but he disappeared something about black helicopters 
Flying in the General Maine area 

Merry Christmas to all ( yes you too Mainer )


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## pimkev

*Snow Trac going alone?*

Well I got the snow trac bug real bad now- If bob's buyer is a no show I'm on it. I have a cabin at 6,500 ft in the southern sierras (Piute Mountain) near Lake Isabella- It's in the National Forest and gets a few feet a year from Dec-early march.

The forest service doesn't plow and it's about 15 miles in from the snow line. My question is- what is the reliability of the ST4 going solo? Don't want to take the family up and have a disaster on my hands.

There is one year round dweller up there with a snow machine, so limited help is possible. I would prefer to caravan with another rig but can't get any neighbors interested in snow cats.

Murph


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## pimkev

I also been thinking about getting Tatou tracks for my Diahatsu Hijet- It's got 4wD hi/lo and a locking rear diff and a 3 cylinder subaru- but then I'm into building a cab for the family in back...


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## Snowtrac Nome

to answer some questions, first snow trac's are worth what one will pay for it. seems prices are high this year. I would be cautious about any alleged rebuild on an engine unless you know who rebuilt it. there are a lot of self proclaimed aircooled experts out there. I see it every summer with the dredge fleet they come up here with rebuilt motors and in 150 hours they are leaking and the lower end is shot. for those who are asking about reliability I run mine up to about 100 miles in a day I have found some weaknesses most notably is the cross member supporting the center springs and the front boggie set up  on the 2 band tracks. during Iditarod I average about 2 trips a day to safety that is 17 miles and one trip a day to anvil mountain for musk ox viewing. I run aero shell 15w 50 oil and change it every 50 hours and do the oil filter every hundred hours. I also use lots of grease. the early years of shaking it down were work breaking cross members boggie issues and a new engine and than a transmission rebuild all of which I have a good repair for. things to look for are the cross member supporting the body  on the center springs will break with time a piece of 2 inch square box tube will fit down the inside slide a piece of 1/4 inch wall tube from end to end you will have no more problems ever .if the front boggie trucks are hammered I would suggest my big wheel conversion it just works and rides better. also check the drive chains these are metric iso standard chains a lot of folks replace them with #80 this will tear up your drive sprockets  at the axle end. other than cooling issues previously discussed these are the things that will bite you in the but in the back country.


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## pimkev

great info Don- thanks for the heads up. I'm good with metal work, but I'm no mechanic. I like your point on the drive chain- I would never think to see if it's original metric!

Murph


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## Snowtrac Nome

also these rigs aren't tanks they will ascend hills pretty good I do it all the time but their mountain performance is nothing like my Thiokol 2100 which is intended for going up and down steep inclines the st4 is also pretty agile when compared to other cats in it's class.


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## 300 H and H

For pure mountian use an ST4B or snow master would be a better choice. To wide for a car tailer though. Might just give Dons 2100 a run for the money in really deep powder snow too....

Regards, Kirk


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## pimkev

Thanks Don- The roads in are maintained by the NFS, and in the summer no problem even 2 wheel drive- I'm not thinking about challenging terrain- yet 

I already have a double axle car trailer so trying to keep the cat light and simple. Also the southern sierras tend to wet, heavy and/or frozen- powder doesn't last around here, so I'm thinking the narrow ST4 would be fine.

Murph


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## JimVT

on my wet snow my stock st4 doesn't drag. I have had the step to the door more of a climb a few times. I have to do over 2mph to keep the snow thrown clear of the tracks. they are a good trailbreaker. the front bumper catches some drifts and sprays your windshield. they are dependable but like all of them you want to stay on top of the maintenance.
this isn't deep snow but shows how it steers.


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## Reddog

So we unload at about 8000' and conditions permitting, can go above 11,000 on groomers. Any thoughts on HP limitations due to losses related to elevation? Seems like pumping up the HP of the stock motor (within limits focused on reliability) would be fairly easy. I have had a significant amount of experience with F.I. Type 4 motors in 914's. Anybody heard of making this swap? I am pretty sure dimensionally they are bigger.
 And a big thanks to Don for contacting me and taking time to talk ST's. Lots of good info and a big help.
 I do think that one thing that draws me back to cats is the great community. OK, enough mushy gushy emotional carp, back to business.....
  Thanks for joining the discussion pimkev, I like some of the points you have brought forward. Re the car hauler trailer, I am pretty sure you would need to make a "overdeck" to get the ST on it. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but even on a narrow model, the outside to outside measurement of the tracks must be in the 8' range, correct??....


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## pimkev

Thanks Doug- anyone that knows what the actual widths for the narrow and wide... would be great to confirm. I just went off the wikipedia info that calls out the Snow Trac at 6'2"  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_Trac

As for the FF cat community- any guy that enjoys driving 40+ year old machines in the snow-bound wilderness is alright in my book 

murph


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## Melensdad

I recently confirmed the width of my Snow Trac ST4 at 6'2" wide.


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## pimkev

Jim - thanks for the video- racing snow tracs LOL! did not know they were so agile. Looked like a dead soldier in the side bin at 1:37?  Anyway that's what I've been aiming for the last 4 years- too cool.

murph


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## Blackfoot Tucker

Reddog said:


> So we unload at about 8000' and conditions permitting, can go above 11,000 on groomers. Any thoughts on HP limitations due to losses related to elevation?



With a normally aspirated engine the rule of thumb is you lose about three percent of your horsepower for every 1,000' gain in elevation.


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## Blackfoot Tucker

Have you gents considered the idea of a side-by-side (such as a Polaris Ranger) on tracks?


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## pimkev

hi blackfoot- I've been shopping tatou and mattracks for a few years- which is why I bought the diahatsu hijet with the same bolt pattern as a rhino. But then I have to build a cab for the bed to get the family out of the cold and for the same price as a cab and tracks I could've bought Bob's ST4


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## Snowtrac Nome

the st-4 is 6.2 wide and will fit into a sky van also fit on a car hauler the the snow master the st-4b is 8-6 and will require a deck over trailer. the snowmaster has verry agressive tracks but those tracks will suck up horse power making a 100 plus hp motor a necessity above 10k you also have to remember i have pushed the little 1600 hard and it will pull a hill at 3k in high gear but you will see cyl head temp spike fast requiring down shifting to 3rd to drop engine temp.


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## 300 H and H

Just as with any vehical power to weight is what matters. With a wet weight of about 2,8000 lbs, it doesn't take the HP that a 8,000 lb machine would need. At high altitudes any cat without a turbo or super charger will suffer a loss of performance.

Form what I have read here, not actuall experiance, A good 1600 at say 50-60 Hp will have enough to get you there and back. F.I. and altitiude comp would be nice however....If this is a problem I have yet to read it any where.. After 50 years of production you would think they are pretty well documented and explained..

ST4B's have quite a bit deeper gearing for I assume High altitudes and lower power output from the engine. And to help pull the wider tracks...

Regards, Kirk


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## Snowtrac Nome

I have taken a br100 plus into the hills to work my snow trac can run circles around it and a snow trac can ascend some pretty impressive inclines, as I have done it but is is not as agile as a snowmachine. I have also pushed mine to the limit at sea level.with out a problem and after talking to our old member leadvillrpm who also lived at some where around 10k with the stock 1600 he was asking an awful lot of it at that altitude. last time we talked just after his shop burned he was planning a forced induction set up and maybe efi as he knew of some mexicain efi kits that had a good rep for reliability. something like that may require the dual port fan system so you could also get the  high output fan. all things considered the snow trac and snowmasters worked well for Canadian tel they used them for years and they worked well you just have to drop a gear and get a cup of coffee out and enjoy the ride.


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## Reddog

A conservative turbo would seem to be the easiest approach. Kits look to run around $2500....ouch 
[URL=http://www.smileyvault.com/]
	
[/URL]
 Maybe just sit back and enjoy the ride....


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## Snowtrac Nome

Reddog said:


> A conservative turbo would seem to be the easiest approach. Kits look to run around $2500....ouch
> [URL="http://www.smileyvault.com/"]
> 
> [/URL]
> Maybe just sit back and enjoy the ride....


 one of these days I would like to build a test platform to see how much reliability and power I can get out of one. on the plus side of the Porsche conversion that engine would also allow you to rev much higher which would get you running as fast in 3 rd as one would run in 4th at 4000 rpm with the bug motor . one of the newer tdi vw diesels would fit nice and not add too much more weight to the front end  food for thaught 100 hp and forced induction for better performance at altitude.


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## 300 H and H

Reddog,
  I lke the idea of a 914 engine transplant but wonder if it would work. Do you know the model numbeer of the 914 engine?? Maybe some intell needs done. I do know where one could be had not so long ago...

Regards, Kirk


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## Reddog

I see no reason other than dimensions that it wouldn't work. The ECM is external, runs an external high pressure fuel pump and has no O2 sensors. I have fiddled with several and had good luck. The fan housing is different and I do not know if a Type 1 fan/housing can be fit on a Type 4 (without too much brain damage....)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_air-cooled_engine


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## JimVT

Reddog said:


> Thanks for the reply and insight Kirk. Seems any well kept or refurbished cat will bring the kind of numbers you are talking about. There are always "deals" to be had that work out in various levels, but the market seems to dictate value and price based on condition and application. For me, this rig seems to fit both bills.
> One question I had is if anyone in the ST community has looked into putting a Subaru powerplant into one of these rigs. It is a very popular conversion in the VW van world and seems to work out from about every perspective. Adapters are readily available and a remote radiator would be the only challenge, and not much one at that. The rig I am considering is supposed to have a low hour rebuild in it and I try to subscribe to the KISS philosophy and "if it ain't broke, don't mess with it". Just wondering, more power, F.I. and hot water for interior heat might not be an alll together bad thing....


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## Reddog

Mmmmmmm.... Engine swap porn....
 Thanks Jim. Is that a 80ish Toyota Corolla engine? They made a Hemi head unit that looked a lot like that.


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## Snowtrac Nome

I  know a guy in Australia who might be able to answer that question he worked for the Porsche dealer who did the Antarctic conversions.


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## 300 H and H

Reddog,
The 914 engine would work but doesn't the exhaust pose a problem too? It comes out the bottom of the head, different than the VW engine doesnt it? Not to mention not cheap to rebuild either so I have read as well. Comments?

Reagards Kirk


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## JimVT




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## JimVT

this is the link to the engine swap.
http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showthread.php?t=29889&highlight=subaru


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## griz01

There is this

http://www.safetyoneinc.com/specsheets/pdf/AKTIV.PDF


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## Reddog

I don't really think the Type 4 engine is significantly more expensive to rebuild/maintain than a Type 1. The "Porsche engine" moniker is a little misleading, since while it was used in the 914, it is full on a VW product and is available out of Type 4 cars and busses. Recently I bought a bus with a Type 4 F.I. engine in it that ran pretty decently for $500. The bus was a beater, but the engine was complete. 
 The TDI engine sounds really interesting, but don't they turn lower RPM at cruising speeds than the gassers? I suppose gearing could be changed....
  I guess I like the "near original" element of the Type 4 motor swap.
All this is a little cart before the horse for me. I looked at and spoke to the fellow that has the ST on consignment on Saturday and am waiting to hear back. He told me he had the rig on his lot for 2 years (maybe 2 winters). Sounds like either he is pretty busy and can't devote a ton of time on selling it or the actual owner may not be very concerned with finding it a new home.
 FWIW, he priced it ready to go, on the trailer at $15K. At that price, I'm probably not a buyer....


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## JimVT

pimkev said:


> Jim - thanks for the video- racing snow tracs LOL! did not know they were so agile. Looked like a dead soldier in the side bin at 1:37?  Anyway that's what I've been aiming for the last 4 years- too cool.
> 
> murph


if you never been around a snow trac .you'll notice you don't brake to steer. so you have very little power loss.

 video shows some of the steering when Lyndon was chasing me .
 jim


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## Reddog

Well, I heard back from the fellow selling the ST. He has talked to the owner and is waiting for a response....

  The tension mounts....


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## JimVT

sounds like you made an offer. ask for  any spare parts if you get it.


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## Reddog

Didn't really make a hard and fast offer, but I responded to the 15K+ price range that I felt that was pretty high for the market. I mentioned the recent sale of Melensdad's rig at $9K (or so, I really don't know) and pointed out that while there are "deals" out there, there are also limited ST buyer out there. Given similar condition (again, unknown), throw in a trailer (which I would resell, I already have one I would prefer to use) and no need for transport costs, I feel somewhere between 9 and 15ish is more in line. But of course, I speak as a buyer, not a seller...
 I have high hopes that we can come to terms on the sale, but there is a "consigned seller" between me and the owner. Flexibility on his part may make or break the deal.
 I did find a complete 1.7L engine out of a 914 locally for around 500 bucks. Wonder if I will wind up needing it....


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## Reddog

Looks like we have struck a deal. A couple details on the sellers end to get tied up and hoping to pick the rig up before the new year. I'll keep the forum posted and post pics as soon as possible.


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## JimVT

Was it this one?


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## Reddog

Jim,
  How did you know!? I thought I was the only one who knew it's location.
 It was a toss-up between the one you show and this one:






Not a Snowtrac, but looked like it would work well for me and in our dry climate, getting her going would be a breeze!


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## Cletis

I propose a new contest.  The ugliest start to a project cat!  That snow trac is way up there!!!

Look forward to seeing the progress.

Cletis


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## Reddog

This one won't win the ugliest start, it's already pretty nice. The 1202B I had might have been in the running, it was a real mutt when I got it.
 One thing this ST will need is new tires, It comes with the rubber, but it is part of the deal that I will do the install. I have gotten tire/wheels off of cats before for flats and such. Anything different on a ST? Any shortcut tips? The little bogies look easier than many to deal with, but the large rearmost tire looks like it may be a challenge. I can get the cat on my lift and get the whole thing off the ground or partially unweighted if that helps. Maybe it's time to build a set of track jacks...


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## 300 H and H

I removed a foamed tire from the small wheel with a hack saw hammer and chisel. No good way I could see, just a fight to cut it off...

Those little rims are split in half and unbolt in the center. This will help some.

The rear won't be any different if foamed. Get your elbow grease out!

Regards, Kirk


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## MNoutdoors RIP

300 H and H said:


> I removed a foamed tire from the small wheel with a hack saw hammer and chisel. No good way I could see, just a fight to cut it off...
> 
> Those little rims are split in half and unbolt in the center. This will help some.
> 
> The rear won't be any different if foamed. Get your elbow grease out!
> 
> Regards, Kirk




In the future when you have your tire filled use a tube it makes it much easier 
When the time comes to replace then just sawzall the tire in two places and remove


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## 300 H and H

boggie said:


> In the future when you have your tire filled use a tube it makes it much easier
> When the time comes to replace then just sawzall the tire in two places and remove


 
Used cat and I didn't fill the tires. You are right though.....

Regards, Kirk


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## Reddog

Thanks for the input. Tires are not currently foam filled. Getting the tires on and off of the wheels is not my main question, getting the wheels on and off of the cat without breaking (separating) the tracks is...


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## 300 H and H

You make a version of the factory lever jack to lift the boggie wheels. It is a simple lever device with a chain that locks the wheel up so the cross bolt can be pulled. There are pics of them in this forum some where. I made my own and it is THE deal for this operation.

Cann't wait to see a type IV in a snow trac.....

Regards, Kirk


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## JimVT

I used a  64 modified vw jack the other day to change a boggie. 
 if I were to change the rear wheel I would use my air tools and break the track. I have done it without in the deep snow and it took about the same time .


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## Snowtrac Nome

the rear wheels can be changed in the field with out breaking the track you need a handiman jack a come along and some thing to tie off to. you jack the rig  drop all tension from the track .pull the top back so there is some slop around the rear wheel than un bolt it slide it out and slide it back in while aligning the studs sounds easier than it really is but it beats breaking the track.


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## JimVT

I had lots of problems with the lugs like you said. it was in the snow and uneven ground. maybe that was eating up some of my slack??


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## Cidertom

I removed and replaced rear tire when I put new bearings in the pivot.  I did a version of what Don suggests.  After jacking and loosening the tension (both on the rear and the drive sprocket)I was able to use a pair of small ratchet cargo straps (1" version) to pull the track back and up.  Wheel came of easy, putting back on was a female dog.  One strap was to the cargo rail on the trac, the other was to the trailer it was sitting on.  Doing it alone didn't help.


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## Snowtrac Nome

as a note to self I have never tried it it may help to re install the tire deflated it would give you a little more room to work. funny how with a little practice it works pretty good I'm down to about an hour to replace a rear tire including the time to repair it.


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## JimVT

wished I had one to replace


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## Snowtrac Nome

I think I can find you one let me get back with you after christmas


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## JimVT

steel 5 lug is what I need my cast one cracked.


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## Reddog

Any thoughts on foam filling? I know the pros and cons, but in light recreational use, is it really very important?
 The ST came with new 3.50-16 motorcycle tires to replace the 3.50-16 Cheng-Shin MC tires that are currently on it. I imagine they are lighter ply rating than the OE units. In this case, I can see foam filling as another big advantage. 
 Any thoughts??


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## Snowtrac Nome

JimVT said:


> steel 5 lug is what I need my cast one cracked.


my steel ones cracked that is why I'm back to composites.


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## Snowtrac Nome

Reddog said:


> Any thoughts on foam filling? I know the pros and cons, but in light recreational use, is it really very important?
> The ST came with new 3.50-16 motorcycle tires to replace the 3.50-16 Cheng-Shin MC tires that are currently on it. I imagine they are lighter ply rating than the OE units. In this case, I can see foam filling as another big advantage.
> Any thoughts??


 The factory tires weren't much more than a bald motor cycle tire alpine guide makes a 4.50x 16 tire that will work. and is pretty much bullet proof there is no weight on the rear tire it just floats and tensions the track. I see no need to add weight just so I don't have to check air pressure.


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## Reddog

Snowtrac Nome said:


> The factory tires weren't much more than a bald motor cycle tire....


  Pretty much what I had thought. I think I will just go with air to begin with and see how it goes. The added weight seemed like a waste since the ST is so comparatively light to begin with.


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## JimVT

I remember seeing on  this fourm a few MC tires that were in pretty bad shape.


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## Reddog

Heading off this AM to hopefully pick up the ST. I will post pics when I get her home.


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## 300 H and H

looking forward to it Doug! lots of pics so we can see what you have...

Regards, Kirk


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## Reddog

Got her home and off the trailer. Seems to run and move well, no brakes... 
  If anyone recognizes this rig, let me know. I'm interested in some of the history.





and a few more pics...

http://ImageEvent.com/reddog/1967snowtrac940


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## JimVT

give us the number. that brass boggie is off an st4b. But that is good. Did he have a parts one?
 after looking closer it looks like a st4b.


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## MNoutdoors RIP

Reddog said:


> Got her home and off the trailer. Seems to run and move well, no brakes...
> If anyone recognizes this rig, let me know. I'm interested in some of the history.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and a few more pics...
> 
> http://ImageEvent.com/reddog/1967snowtrac940



Maybe it's me but that rear wheel looks small ? That could be one of my old machines  I did sell 4-5 of them some years back Member couchloafer  got a few of them


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## Snowtrac Nome

that's a narrowed down snow master I have seen the pics before can't remember where it does have the rare brass boggie also the tracks look a little loose the front wheel should be off the ground. the reason the rear tire looks small is be cause it extends out past the rear by about 12 inches. other wise looks well cared for.


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## MNoutdoors RIP

Snowtrac Nome said:


> that's a narrowed down snow master I have seen the pics before can't remember where it does have the rare brass boggie also the tracks look a little loose the front wheel should be off the ground. the reason the rear tire looks small is be cause it extends out past the rear by about 12 inches. other wise looks well cared for.



Look at this picture, look at the distance between the top of the tire guide and the wheel. Also the top flatness of the track.


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## 300 H and H

Yes the tracks are way loose......

I agree the rear wheel just looks smallish. too much gap to the fender for it to be corrrect IMHO. IF the track tensioners are all the way out that would explain why.....

Other wise it looks ok....

Regards, Kirk


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## Snowtrac Nome

the snow master runs a longer track frame and generally uses 3 boggie wheels in the rear rocker assemble I only see 2 in that one .


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## Reddog

Looks like the rear rocker has a place for a middle bogie. I thought the front fenders looked wide for the machine. Think I should install a middle bogie on the rear?


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## Melensdad

Reddog said:


> Looks like the rear rocker has a place for a middle bogie. . .
> 
> Think I should install a middle bogie on the rear?


Yes, you should install the middle bogie.


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## Reddog

OK, I have one, need another...anyone....anyone...??


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## JimVT

if the tracks are narrowed it must have been working that way. why not give it a try??
 can you post a rearend picture?


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## JimVT

this one was forsale a few years back on ebay


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## Reddog

I don't think that is my rig, but setup is the same...although the hitch on that one and mine look the same. Is that a ST vs. SM difference??
Supposedly this one was owned by someone from Texas who has a second home in Telluride.
 In the original pics, the rear tires and all bogies were flat. With new rear tires on and all bogies filled up, tracks look much better! I'll post a pic or two tomorrow. 
 I think the rig would function fine with 2 of 3 rear bogies, but since I have one extra tire/wheel assembly and several new bogie tires, I might as well find another one and run 3.
 Tomorrow we shall see is adding fluid and bleeding will give us brakes.
  Stay tuned....


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## Reddog

I think this thread my need to move to another area. Repairs? Mods? Suggestions?
 But as long as I have you here, should the steering wheel caster back to straight ahead or do I need to do that myself??
 And did this beast come with an e-brake? I see cables, but no lever/handle/engagement gizmo...


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## Reddog

And a couple more questions:

Speedometer-I see a cable, or a cable housing. Did this go into the tranny?

Engine-Seems to be a later model VW with conventional "bug style" heater boxes, this is non-OE...correct?

Tracks-Belting is tired, but servicable.  Since it seems I have a SM with cut down tracks, what are thoughts about going back to full on SM tracks or trying to add a couple inches to each side of the tracks? Wider than now, but not as wide as OE SM tracks. I know the grousers will be an issue to deal with. Are these available or is this a "do it yourself" fabrication project?

Chain tension- Mine are currently very tight in my mind. Basically no slack at all. Is this correct or should I back the adjusters off a little to allow a little slack?


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## 300 H and H

Speedo cable is supposed to attach to the left final drive gear infront of the engine. 

Not sure about your heater boxes other than they are different than a car has.

Grousers will be THE issue... Hard to find, especially for the ST4B's...

Yes back off the chain tension a bit. This is done on the out side of the machine inboard of the brake hubs and track drive gears. Check your track tension after, as it will change when you adjust the drive chains.

You need a manual and a parts book. I think both are here on the forum somewhere.

Good luck, Kirk


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## Reddog

Thanks Kirk! Now it's off to the shop for some fiddling....


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## Blackfoot Tucker

Just a thought:

My recollection is the Snow Tracs are geared higher than Snow Masters or Track Masters making the Snow Tracs faster. When this machine's tracks were narrowed was the gearing changed?


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## 300 H and H

Blackfoot Tucker said:


> Just a thought:
> 
> My recollection is the Snow Tracs are geared higher than Snow Masters or Track Masters making the Snow Tracs faster. When this machine's tracks were narrowed was the gearing changed?


 
Very good point. 11 tooth driving 32 tooth I believe is the stock for a standard ST4. Snow masters are different, just not sure how. They give up about 6 mph in top speed...

My guess is that they run a smaller front sprocket as the driver is about at the limit of size for the application.

Regards, Kirk


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## JimVT

this is the speedo hookup


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## Reddog

Just counted, looks like 30 teeth on the front sprocket.
  So much for my plans to set the world land speed record for a snow trac....


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## 300 H and H

Reddog said:


> Just counted, looks like 30 teeth on the front sprocket.
> So much for my plans to set the world land speed record for a snow trac....


 
How many teeth are on the rear driver on the variator?


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## Reddog

I can't get my pointed head into that spot. I'll try to count them tomorrow.

So I got the brakes bled, adjusted and working. Adjusted the chains and tracks. Engine turns out o be a 1600cc dual port with the 009 distributor and a spin on oil filter mod. Runs well.




  I took it out for a spin in the parking lot across the street. Shifts thru all the gears and drives well. Planning on a New Years Day maiden voyage.


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## Reddog

JimVT said:


> this is the speedo hookup



Thanks for the picture. It confirms that the speedo drive is missing off of my rig. Since it has been revealed that my rig is a Snow Master, and has outboard brakes, maybe the setup is different, but still no hookup in sight.
Bummer....


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## Reddog

Also headed down to Sonic for a burger....


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## redsqwrl

In regards to history of the machine.... no clue.
However with that said, I think i may have inquired about that machine a few years ago. I think Cascade auto had the machine on contract. I spent some time discussing the machine with DDS.... 

I built a speed o connection for a ST4, dont  over think it is very simple. I jammed a spring onto the axle, then wittled a wood block to accept a Random speed o cable in the other end of the spring. 

I had to disassemble my speedo and rebuild it to get it to work smooth. 
Speed o cable was from a Scout. standard square drive on both ends.

I went at it very simple and crude as a learning experience. Now that it works I never seem to make the time to upgrade..... I can snap a photo if you desire.

enjoy your new ride.
Mike


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## Reddog

Mike,
  Thanks for the info. I thought the drive would have some sort of gear reduction like on a conventional transmission attachment, but if it is just a direct drive off of the big drive sprocket, I think i can craft something that will work. I mounted a GPS yesterday that should work until I get the OE unit back in shape.
 Overall the rig is responding well to love and attention. Spent yesterday welding a few cracked grousers, sorting out a few poor grounds that were causing some lighting issues, cleaning and polishing. She is starting to look as good as she runs.
  After looking a little closer and conferring with Don, it appears that a PO at some time decided to cut the longer grousers off to the ST width. Don says this is not an uncommon practice to narrow the rig for trailering. I guess the up side is that if I want to return it to a wider track, I have less work ahead than if I had to replace every grouser, but finding the needed grousers may prove to be difficult. I guess it
s like Mom used to say, "Never cut what you can untie"....
 This rig, like many it seems, is missing the under engine tin. Any opinions on fabbing one and putting it back in place?


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## Snowtrac Nome

Reddog the only tin on mine is the air scoop. I drilled holes in the belly pan and removed they transition plate between the body and belly pan. I now have plenty of area for heat to escape and have never had overheating issues even during the summer the one thing I would like to add is a shield across the front of the engine to keep snow off the distributor when running in blowing snow


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## JimVT

I have about the same .no deflector just the vw engine tin and floor holes.


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## Reddog

Starting to look better:


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## utahwilson

Have you taken it out in snow yet?


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## Reddog

Been too busy polishing...






Hope to get her out tomorrow for a shakedown cruise!


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## utahwilson

Gorgeous! I have a spring on order to fix my left fron axle assembly. Figured I would give it one more shot before I go with the big wheel conversion. Looks like the front fender is one piece? Good luck on your maiden voyage. It has been 3 years since I have driven mine, but when I did it was a blast. Especially, pulling into the parking lot with all the other snowcats and snowmobies, my snowcat definetly got the most attention. 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0IG8DrZIHM"]P1020154 - YouTube[/ame]


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## Reddog

Front fenders are one piece. Is that not how they came??


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## utahwilson

I have a trackmaster and it appears it is in two sections. Outside piece was not there when i picked it up. Inside fender has holes where I assume the outside piece would bolt to. However, there are no holes in the piece that folds down.


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## Reddog

If I were to guess, I'd say someone put snowtrac fenders on your trackmaster like someone put snow trac tracks on my snow master...


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## utahwilson

crap, I never considered that.  This would explain a lot.


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## redsqwrl

I thought my master was (cut) down as my machine looks like utahs.
RD:
I am thinking you have a master with just the outside belts cut off. the snow trac st4 tracks are shorter than trac or master or 4b tracs.


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## Reddog

I agree. I can see where the wide grousers have been cut off in slightly different lengths and angles. If I keep the rig long enough to consider re-belting it, I think I will just make the belts extend beyond the wide grouser by 1/2 to 1 inch and call it good. Currently the grousers extend beyond the belting by about that amount.

 The tag on the dash of my machine says ST4, would that sound right for a TM/SM??


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## MNoutdoors RIP

Reddog said:


> I agree. I can see where the wide grousers have been cut off in slightly different lengths and angles. If I keep the rig long enough to consider re-belting it, I think I will just make the belts extend beyond the wide grouser by 1/2 to 1 inch and call it good. Currently the grousers extend beyond the belting by about that amount.
> 
> The tag on the dash of my machine says ST4, would that sound right for a TM/SM??



Is there a "B" behind that ? 

ST4B ?


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## Reddog

A B, or not a B, that is the question....
  Sorry, I couldn't resist.
 No B, just ST and 000940 or 00940, but no "B"


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## Cletis

That machine appears to be in very good shape.  When your done polishing your rig.  I have a pu and a jeep that needs done!


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## redsqwrl

Hey doug the tag should be on the rear passenger side of the machine. Outside the rig.

ST 4's back boggie wheel did not extend off the rear of the machine.

ST-4B's whether a TM or SM did. I am guessing yours is a master with a ST4 tag on it.
FWIW
I know nothing.... Just guessing.

Mike


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## Reddog

No tag outside, just on the RH side of the dash inside. No doubt that it's a SM/TM as others have pointed out. I am inclined to believe that mine was specially built for 007 and the mis-matched tag is a matter of National security. 
   As far as contract polishing goes , I still got stuff of my own to polish, so you are out of luck....


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## MNoutdoors RIP

Reddog said:


> No tag outside, just on the RH side of the dash inside. No doubt that it's a SM/TM as others have pointed out. I am inclined to believe that mine as specially built for 007 and the mis-matched tag is a matter of National security.
> As far as contract polishing goes , I still got stuff of my own to polish, so you are out of luck....



Nope only Big Al has the super secret stealth starting 007 machine what he does not know when he was Panama this year a special ops team snuck in an switched all his plug wires around right after they copied all the super secret stealth features he had installed, see its a part of a new program to save fuel they figure that the KT7 does the best on the trailer and that way he won't hurt the mating cycle of a spotted owls 

Had another thought don't know if anybody remembers Grizzly Adams the show but Jack the old mountain man had a mule 
And he was #7 just like Big ALS  KT7  had a hell of time getting him to go also always threaten that # 8 was coming soon


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## JimVT

I noticed a remote cooler on your fender.do you have a newer dual port engine?


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## bavarian

I've already been outbid! Maybe someone else would like in on the action?


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## Reddog

Looks like a good rig. Will be interesting to see what it goes for....


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## MNoutdoors RIP

bavarian said:


> I've already been outbid! Maybe someone else would like in on the action?



That auction is a prebid auction to the live auction on Saturday 11th 
13% add on for internet 
8.3 sales tax also


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## Reddog

Sounds like a "online bidding" fee would take the "good" out of some good deals....


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## bavarian

Reddog said:


> Sounds like a "online bidding" fee would take the "good" out of some good deals....



You're absolutely right! It's a pretty rich premium on top of the final value. Once I drag the thing across the border into Kanuckistan there would be more taxes still. 
Have to bide my time for a rig for sale up here...


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## Reddog

So finally we got the crew together and headed out for a shakedown cruise






Not tons of snow, but enough to get an idea of how she runs and handles






All went well. Ran great, no hiccups, Probably going to fiddle with the steering wheel a some, seems to rub on the shaft housing a little. I may have tightened it more than it is used to. Otherwise, seems to be ready to head into the backcountry. 

Very cool steering system. I had a chance to traverse a slope that would have given the LMC fits. Very nice to not have to drag a brake to stay on the slope. Also was able to turn uphill without any drama or loss of power. Like I said, not very challenging snow conditions, but enough to get an idea of what the machine was about....

I never got my pointed head into position to count the teeth on the small sprocket. She seems to be very happy to cruise at 10 MPH on the flats in third at about 2100 RPM. If it is geared a little lower than a ST, I think that may be a blessing at our altitude.

Thanks to all who have helped out with this project thus far. Of the cats I have owned so far, this one seems to be my favorite. At least today...


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## MNoutdoors RIP

Nice pictures, and they ALL look happy ............ That's  important !


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## Reddog

Any cat ride that does not end with a snowshoe hike back to the truck brings smiles all around....


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## 300 H and H

Reddog,

I think you now know the attraction some of us have for the Snow Trac machines. Ease of operation, good reliability, and light weight. All coupled with a unique and very efficient drive train. Really what is not to like? Oh yea you cann't spot turn...

Regards, Kirk


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## utahwilson

JimVT said:


> I noticed a remote cooler on your fender.do you have a newer dual port engine?



was told when I bought it that the engine was rebuilt and bored out to 1835cc.  Seemed to be running hot so I put on the oil cooler and appears to help.


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## Reddog

300 H and H said:


> How many teeth are on the rear driver on the variator?




I crammed my head in the engine compartment and used a laser pointer. Best bet I can come up with is 11 or 12, probably 11. 11 on the little end and 30 on the big end gets me about 2.73 to one. According to this per Lyndon:

The Big Sprockets in the engine compartment came in 36, 38, and 42 tooth combinations. The Small chain sprockets on the Variator came in 11, 12, and 15 tooth combinations. Standard oin a Snow Trac is 12's and 38's. Standard on a Trac Master or Snow Master is 11's & 42's. The difference is roughly 3:1 versus 4:1. This also directly correlates to why Snow Trac's usually have 3 times the miles as hours, and the "Masters" have closer to a 2 times per hour ratio. The machine I tried with the high ratio was lacking in torque at the high end. Just too much track. I had to drop back to lower ratios. It was a Trac Master with at 1776 CC, roughly 90 HP engine. In all one can get 9 possible combinations out of the 3 & 3 gear offering. It is also possible to get a variety of different gearing out of the Transaxels. ST4's were normally shipped with VW Bus Transaxels which have lower gearing than Bug Transaxels. Top speed according to the factory literature in a "Master" is 13.5 MPH, 22 in a Snow Trac. I was able to get over 25 on my 1963 Snow Trac that had the original 36/40 HP 1192 CC engine, on an ice covered road, and a good 30+ MPH out of a Snow Trac with a 1600, 53 HP Motor.
__________________
" A Snow Cat Will See you thru times of NO WINCH, better than a WINCH will see you thru Times of NO SNOW CAT!"

That setup puts me in the ST gearing range. I was running it at about 2200, but read some folks run 3000+ RPM. If she will cruise comfortably at 15 MPH, in decent snow conditions, I'll be more than happy.


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## Snowtrac Nome

at 4 k im running 15 at 5 k I run 19 mph I have plenty of power I would have liked to see 25 at 4 k


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## Reddog

Idle hands and using up some stuff I had around:






And a link to it in action!

http://photos.imageevent.com/reddog/1967snowtrac940/P1050887.MOV


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## Snowtrac Nome

I see you too have a twin sonic light bar I hope you have an alternator the little generator won't keep up with the draw on that. looks like you have plans to set it up with a chicken band radio


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## Reddog

It came with the CB. I got the TwinSonic off of a AWD van the county had that I bought a while back. Pretty cool rig, dual front diffs, 2 front driveshafts and IFS. 
 I don't plan to run the beacon much, and I don't think the wig/wag flashers will draw much. Just had it and some time on my hands today....


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