# Tractor BS !!!



## BigAl RIP

I am so sick and tired of hearing (*so called )Tractor guys* tell me that I made a mistake buying a Kioti Tractor because of no dealer support.   More like weekend dirt diggers who think they got it figured out !!!

I saved 8 grand over a comparable Kubota . Yes I have owned both brands , but I do not pay extra for brand name !!!

 I own a DK45 TLB with every implement I could find and buy  . It has never let me down and I run a tractor hard .  I finally ordered a new pin for the bucket this week . The parts dealer had one in stock and it arrived 2 days later . 

I have no Kioti Dealer close by to order parts from .  One breakdown ....6 years .....saved $8 grand ....been offered more than I paid for it ....


 Tell me again why I made a mistake ???????


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## muleman RIP

But......But......But it is not green!


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## OhioTC18 RIP

You made a wise investment Al


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## BigAl RIP

muleman said:


> But......But......But it is not green!


  Nothing wrong with a Deere , unless you got a  Kioti chasin it !!!!


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## Erik

and that, Al, is why I have a Mahindra.
75% the price of a case/NH/kubota, 65% of the price of a MF or JD and 110% of the performance for similar size frame & HP.  (specifically lift capacity fore & aft)
I also looked at TYM & Kioti, but the closest dealers weren't interested in selling me a tractor.


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## BigAl RIP

Erik said:


> and that, Al, is why I have a Mahindra.
> 75% the price of a case/NH/kubota, 65% of the price of a MF or JD and 110% of the performance for similar size frame & HP. (specifically lift capacity fore & aft)
> I also looked at TYM & Kioti, but the closest dealers weren't interested in selling me a tractor.


 
 Never owned a mahinda , but I hear they are one tuff Tractor .. They are made in INDIA???  
  I also could not deal locally on my Kioti and went for a little road trip.
 Picked up a new  20 foot  slant  tail steel deck 14000 pound trailer in Okla. and turned toward Texas and picked up my Kioti .


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## EastTexFrank

BigAl said:


> Tell me again why I made a mistake ???????



I would never do that.  

My Kubota B2400 finally let me down this past week.  After a 12 year relationship covering 1800 hours of use and abuse she sprung a leak.  So, basically for 12 years I haven't needed any dealer support.  You know what, if I had a tractor that needed a great deal of dealer support and maintenance, I probably got the wrong tractor.

If your tractor runs and does what you want and isn't breaking down every few months then it was a good deal.  Be thankful and I don't care if it's green, orange, blue or red.


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## Melensdad

BigAl said:


> I am so sick and tired of hearing (*so called )Tractor guys* tell me that I made a mistake buying a Kioti Tractor because of no dealer support. . .


Al, as you know I own a Bobcat tractor, which is basically a slightly fancier Kioti, but painted white.  Honestly I would never buy a tractor if I could not get dealer support.  I want someone to hold my hand if I fall down and skin my knee.  That is what the dealer is supposed to do.  You are lucky.  No problems.  Other people not so lucky.  And it doesn't matter what color the tractor is painted, I want a dealership to stand behind me if I have a problem.  

That said, I would not buy a Kioti from my local Kioti dealer, I simply don't trust him.  I also would not buy a John Deere from my local JD dealership, walked in there with a checkbook and nobody would sell me a tractor?!?  My new Bobcat is built in the same Kioti factory as your Kioti but I wouldn't buy the Kioti because of the DEALER.  When I bought this new tractor the dealership_ 'warm & cozy'_ feeling determined which brands I would buy, it boiled down to Bobcat, New Holland, Yanmar/Cub and Kubota.  I understand why you made your choice and don't blame you for it, but please understand why some of us value dealerships above brands.  Doesn't have to be a big dealer, but I want an established dealer, good parts guys who know what I mean when I say "_thingy that dangles underneath_" and a solid repair area (_just in case I really screw something up_).






Erik said:


> and that, Al, is why I have a Mahindra. . . and 110% of the performance for similar size frame & HP.  (specifically lift capacity fore & aft)


Erik, I've spent years comparing tractor specs.  If you matched up the same frame size tractors with Case/NH, Kubota, JD then I'm afraid you looked at the wrong specs.  Further, I'm afraid to say that I'd be willing to bet that your tractor does not outlift the other brands.  Again, assuming similar tractor frame size, etc.

Mahindra uses 'pivot pin' specs for FEL capacity. Mahindra uses 'ball eye' specs for 3pt capacity.  Case/NH, Kubota and SOMETIMES John Deere use 19.2" in front of the 'pivot pin' spec as well as 24" behind the 'ball eye' spec for their lift capacity.  These numbers and specs confuse a lot of people and have been the start of many a tractor brand argument.  But its simple geometry.  The closer you measure to the tractor the MORE it can THEORETICALLY lift.  The farther out you measure the LESS it can ACTUALLY lift.  

The differences between measuring 19.2" forward of the pivot pins and at the pivot pins is that at the 19.2" forward placement you are actually measuring something inside your FEL bucket or out on your bale spear.  Depending on the brand, the difference that small amount of distance makes is roughly 20% to 25% of the total capacity.  The same is true for 3pt hitch capacity.  

More clearly written, a tractor measured at the "pivot pins" with a 1200# FEL capacity can lift no more than a tractor measured at 19.2" forward with only a 1000# lift capacity.  Both have EQUAL capacity.  But the advertising boys in New York who work for Mahindra _(and Kioti was guilty of this too)_ thought that 1200# looked better than 1000# so they changed the measurement standard.


With 3pt capacity think of it this way.  Hang a really heavy box blade off your tractor and the tractor is very stable, it front tires on the ground firmly.  That is because a box blade is wide, but it sits very close to the tractor as measured front to back.  But hang the SAME WEIGHT rotary cutter off the same tractor and the front end of the tractor 'feels light' and the tractor is less stable.  Why?  Simple geometry.  The rear wheel acts as the fulcrum point, the farther to the rear the weight is carried, the less pressure there is on the front tires.  

Old time farmers knew all this stuff so they measured from the "center of the bucket" to determine how much they could lift.  They also measured from the "implement" on the 3pt hitch to determine lift capacity aft.  

When modern CUTs showed up on the market the rules changed.  Small land owners didn't know what farmers knew, so marketing changed and the tractor brands split.  True agricultural companies like Case/New Holland used the same spec measurement points for suburban compact tractors that they use for large farm tractors, but a few newcomers into the US market trying to develop their niche in the fast growing Compact Utility Tractor market (under 65hp) chose to use a different standard.

I've had more than one dealer scratch his head and admit he was wrong when I got done with him . . . and I've taught the sales rep at more than one "Big 3" dealership that his tractor does have specs that actually beat 'brand x' when properly compared.  

There was a move a couple years ago by Kubota dealers to push for a new standard, it was rejected by Kubota.  John Deere now posts mixed specs, sometimes showing one standard, sometimes the other.  My own Bobcat _(deluxe Kioti) _uses mixed specs!?!


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## Big Dog

BigAl said:


> I am so sick and tired of hearing (*so called) Tractor guys* tell me that I made a mistake buying a Kioti Tractor because of no dealer support.   More like weekend dirt diggers who think they got it figured out !!!
> 
> I saved 8 grand over a comparable Kubota . Yes I have owned both brands , but I do not pay extra for brand name !!!
> 
> I own a DK45 TLB with every implement I could find and buy  . It has never let me down and I run a tractor hard .



Ditto ............ Never needed a dealer after the purchase. My savings was $4,500 over a smaller Kubota (which I have also owned), I bought mine at a dealer 100 miles away and since purchasing, I now have a very good dealer 10 miles away.


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## BigAl RIP

Let me expand a little on this subject . One of the big points that was bought to my attention before I bought my tractor is *it would be worth very little should I decide to sale it in the future* . 

I certainly have not seen that happen ,any worst, than comparing other major brands and what they are going for used . I got lucky and purchased my TLB at a great price and pocketed the savings up front . 

And Bob ,,,,, I had my front end loader "Chrome plated " To add a little *bling bling* to my Kioti , Along with my New Elk Leather seat cover to keep my butt warm. 
Seriously . I hope the Bobcat works as well for you as the Kioti has for me . You will be one happy camper !

One question on your Bobcat : Hows the rollback on the front bucket ? I wish I had just a little more on my 1590 Kioti loader .


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## loboloco

Al, tractors are a personal preference.  We use mostly JD because we know they will survive the punishment.  Some around here use Belarus, and while they have a few more problems, not enough to get rid of them.  In the smaller tractor field, it is very scattered with Kubota seeming to be predominant.  Since we around here buy a tractor knowing we are the ones going to work on it, dealership location is pretty much a moot point.


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## Erik

Melensdad said:


> Erik, I've spent years comparing tractor specs.  If you matched up the same frame size tractors with Case/NH, Kubota, JD then I'm afraid you looked at the wrong specs.  Further, I'm afraid to say that I'd be willing to bet that your tractor does not outlift the other brands.  Again, assuming similar tractor frame size, etc.
> 
> Mahindra uses 'pivot pin' specs for FEL capacity. Mahindra uses 'ball eye' specs for 3pt capacity.  Case/NH, Kubota and SOMETIMES John Deere use 19.2" in front of the 'pivot pin' spec as well as 24" behind the 'ball eye' spec for their lift capacity.  These numbers and specs confuse a lot of people and have been the start of many a tractor brand argument.  But its simple geometry.  The closer you measure to the tractor the MORE it can THEORETICALLY lift.  The farther out you measure the LESS it can ACTUALLY lift.
> 
> The differences between measuring 19.2" forward of the pivot pins and at the pivot pins is that at the 19.2" forward placement you are actually measuring something inside your FEL bucket or out on your bale spear.  Depending on the brand, the difference that small amount of distance makes is roughly 20% to 25% of the total capacity.  The same is true for 3pt hitch capacity.
> <snip>


Bob, 
I am actually aware of the differences and did study and contrast apples to apples as best I could when shopping.

Mahindra 3510 loader lift at pins: 1972#, 80% of that (for 19.2" in front of pins) 1577#
breakout force at pins: 3343#, 80% of that 2674
3 point lift at ball ends: 2885#, 80% of that (for 24" behind balls) 2308
my cost w/loader $18k

JD 3520 w/300cx loader 1598# at pivot pins
breakout - not given
3 pt lift at ball ends 2530#, 24" behind 2200
"build your own" online quote $27k
To use their loader, JD also requires filled tires, 1100 pounds of counterweight, and 3 wheel weights on a side per their service manual. That was not figured into the price above.

NH 2035 lift at pins 1596#, 19.2" out 1183#
breakout at pins 2700#, 19.2" out 1900#
3 pt lift at ball ends - 1925#, 24" behind, 1635#

MF 1635 lift at pivot pins 1900#
breakout not given
3 pt lift at ball ends 2800#

Kubota results were similar to JD & CNH.

Mahindra also had the heaviest frame, with Kioti running a close second.


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## REDDOGTWO

Talk all the specs that you want, it is the actual performance that counts.  I found that the loader on my L4630 Kubota could not lift two 3700# pallets off of the semi at one time.  Then I found out that it could not lift one off as it was on top of the other as it was pretty high up there.  The second one it did lift off of the bed of the semi trailer, I do believe that 3700# is beyond the capabilities of the loader specs.  Without the heavy steel box on the back with about 1200# of window weights in it I would have had major problems lifting anything that big.


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## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Rule of farm implements:  Know matter how big a tractor, trailer, truck, ... you get you will always find a task that you could have used a bigger one.


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## Melensdad

Erik, with all due respect I think your compared the wrong frame size machines to the 3510, at least with the NEW HOLLAND tractor.  I considered that very tractor when I was looking for a new tractor late last summer.  It is almost 2 feet shorter and every bit of a half foot narrower than your tractor, its also only available in HST.  The frame size is a full frame size smaller than your tractor and its sold as a full featured suburban/estate tractor.  The 3510 is sold as a farm tool, with a shuttle shift, that transmission cost difference alone is going to account for a nice chunk of change, but the fact is the 3510 is a frame size up from the NH 2035.  Apple to Orange.

The NH 2035 is in the same class of tractor as Bobcat CT235 or the Kioti CK35.  

Your Mahindra 3510 is in the same class of tractor as the Kioti DK35 range machine, not the CK35, CT235, or NH 2035.


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