# Ethanol Mandate going UP, also BioDiesel Blends increasing



## Melensdad

Help for the real farmers among us?  Increased business for the auto repair shops, small engine repair shops, and shorter life for all small engines?  

Source => http://thehill.com/policy/energy-en...ls-senate-dems-it-intends-to-increase-ethanol


> White House adviser John Podesta has indicated *the administration plans to raise the amount of ethanol and other biofuels that must be blended into the nation's fuel supply, Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.) said Thursday.*
> 
> The Environmental Protection Agency's proposed draft on blending volumes, which was released late last year, cut the amount of biofuels that refiners would need to mix into their fuels. The plan represented the first time the agency had lowered the target from the previous year.
> 
> While the primary focus of Thursday's meeting between Podesta and Senate Democrats was on biodiesel volumes, Franken said the adviser mentioned that the final blending mandates would likely be higher than what the EPA had initially proposed._
> "I believe the numbers will be bigger and that's based not only on conversations with [Podesta] but my conversations with EPA Administrator Gina McCarthy," Franken said. "He certainly led us to believe there will be higher numbers in each piece of it than was in the preliminary [Renewable Fuel Standard]."
> _​Franken said Podesta told the senators that the release of the final rule "will be imminent."
> 
> "We were all making the case that the preliminary RFS rule put out by the EPA is unacceptable," Franken said on a call with reporters after the meeting with Podesta.
> 
> A main point of contention is the biodiesel levels set in the EPA's proposal. The EPA kept 2013 levels in place for the biodiesel blend requirement, but senators like Franken, Sen. Heidi Heitkamp (D-N.D.) and Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse (D-R.I.) want the threshold to be raised.
> 
> The agency set biodiesel at 1.28 billion gallons, but the industry and lawmakers want the EPA to set the blend volume at 1.8 billion gallons in the final 2014 rule.
> 
> Franken argued that setting the blending threshold too low would discourage investments and put biodiesel producers out of business.
> 
> The proposed draft for the 2014 renewable fuel mandate was considered a victory for oil companies, who cheered the retreat in blending volumes.
> 
> *If the EPA does increase levels in the final rule, they will likely face severe pushback from the oil industry, which argues increasing amounts of biofuels mixed into the fuel supply damage cars, engines, and more.*


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## Dargo

That is really helpful for all middle and low income people who will almost immediately destroy their trimmers, chain saws, lawn mowers and, positively, older vehicles. It will only effect vehicles built before mid 2015 and, therefore, considered 2016 models. 

I can already tell you what happens because I've been in and around the auto repair business professionally for the last 25 years. At 15% most all "non-flex fuel" vehicles have 'drivability' issues. They run rough, constantly stall out and lose about 10% of their previous fuel economy. Unscrupulous gas stations are adding extra alcohol (because it is cheaper) and water (to git rid of water in your tank you add alcohol). Most small engines have severe operating issues and generally won't run. 

At 20% alcohol small engines just won't run and self destruct. Boats running on "gasoline" experience a huge amount of failures, leaving boaters stranded. Harley Davidson motorcycles will not even begin to idle and they begin leaking terribly. Other brand motorcycles are similarly affected. A very high percentage of vehicles quit running and require towing to a shop which, currently only replaces rotted and dissolved gaskets and replace the fuel with a mix of 10% or less. If that is not available, most guess that the engines will be destroyed (think 'cash for clunkers' destruction) and the owners will have to buy a 2016 model vehicle or do without. 

Overall, even if the vehicle is made to run on alcohol, the best estimates are for a 12%-20% reduction in fuel economy because alcohol simply has far fewer BTU's available for energy as compared to gasoline. One gallon of ethanol has 76,100 BTU's of energy. One gallon of gasoline has 114,100 BTU's.  Therefore, if you use a vehicle running on E85, like the gubment wants, you realistically are going to need 1.5 gallons of the crap to go as far as you would go on 1.0 gallons of gasoline. It literally is stupid, but it is our government. Not only are they intending to get all pre-2016 vehicles off the road, but also all pre-2016 gas powered lawn equipment out of use as well. That REALLY helps the poor and middle class. 

The absolutely ridiculous part of all of this is that, currently, it takes just over 1.45 gallons of fossil fuel to produce this inefficient crap that is going to ruin your engines and cause you to get far less MPG!  And, who is paying for this screwing?  Those of us who pay taxes!!  From having attended "industry insider" meetings on this for the last 7-8 years I just have to scratch my head and ask WHY??!!  This solves NOTHING!!


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## 300 H and H

If I read it right, it has nothing to do with raising E10 to say E15...

They are talking about total gallons blended nation wide, not the percentage in your fuel.. It will stay at 10%

The good news here is the raising of the biodiesel. You guys never complain about that one anyway. Bio diesel is a very good product that doesn't get constant bashing as does E10..

But hay, I use E10 with no consequences in all my engines big and small. Both chain saws started right up this spring after sitting for 6 months... So did the 2 cycle snow mobiles.. We're getting along with E10 for decades now with little/no issues..

Regards, Kirk


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## Melensdad

Kirk I'm a big fan of BioDiesel and think it can be a very good long term solution to our energy needs.

I'd love to see more BioDiesel available in the future.  It is impossible to find where I live.

BUT as to the % of Ethanol in gas, take a look at the last sentence in the story I quoted, it strongly implies that the % of Ethanol may go up in fuel.


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## 300 H and H

IF they increase blending levels.... Meaning total ethanol blended with gasoline..

If you take it in the context of the title of the artical, it may make more sence. In the title it speaks of the over all gallons blended in the nations supply...

Biodiesel solves a vexing issue with the current ultra low sulphur diesel fuels as well. It replaces the lubrication values of the sulphur we removed. Sulphur is a lubricant for high preasure injection systems all diesel engines have. 

Regards, Kirk


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## 300 H and H

With cheap corn and high gasoline prices, ehtanol margins are quite good. They are not able to gobble up last years crop though. And with a good crop in the midwest, it is a very good thing we have ethanol plants to use up the current surplus of corn..

The margins are good enough the exports of ethanol are also up. But with a projected carry out of corn at 1.8 billion bushles at the end of 2014, who knows how low the price of corn would go.. with out ethanol.

Farmers have had a good ride for a few years. Now the party is over for us, unless we feed livestock. Those guys are now getting rich feeding cheap corn. 

Weather, drought/blizzard has the beef herd at 1940's levels and the hog herd suffered 9 million death losses to a chinese virus.. We are seriously short of livestock numbers. Hence the price of meat is very high..

It's not the price of corn..

Regards, Kirk


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## grizzer

MN law pushed 20% biodiesel starting July 2014. Then May-Sept future years.

 Works great until you have that 20% still in your tanks in Nov. when the temp drops to -10 and your now waxed solid and that snow is not going anywhere...

 Franken has been very crafty picking issues and spending his campaign pile on advertising. He has refused a debate with McFadden his opposition at the MN State Fair at the end of Aug.


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## Andrei

Alcohol is corrosive to metals and that is why the new vehicles have plastic tanks and plastic/composite tubing and intakes.
Alcohol is hard to store and transport because it is very volatile.
Making alcohol from food is not a bright idea.
Vegetable oil on the other side is very stable in time and superior lubricant to diesel.
I have been making my own blends for aprox 10 yrs and love it. 
Just do not get as much free WVO as I would like at this time. 
Why don't they use alcohol for power generation?


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## Melensdad

Andrei said:


> I have been making my own blends for aprox 10 yrs and love it.
> Just do not get as much free WVO as I would like at this time.



I wanted to do my own WVO to BioDiesel but the VW/Audi diesels clog up with more than 5% Bio mixed Blends.  They specifically advise that they won't perform warranty work, etc if they find that the engines are clogged with BioBlends.  

My tractor will apparently run Bio without issues, but I don't use enough in just the tractor to warrant the up front costs of setting up the cooker to convert the WVO to Biofuel.


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## Andrei

Aluminum block diesel engines are not reliable.


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## Melensdad

Andrei said:


> Aluminum block diesel engines are not reliable.



VW's Diesel engines prove to be very reliable and have been so for many years.  Despite being aluminum blocks.

The reason that they can't allow BioDiesel is due to the emissions system that they use.  The BioDiesel tends to gum up the anti-pollution devices that are utilized in 2010 and newer VW/Audi engines.  Prior to the 2010 model year there was no problem with Bio.  In fact the engine has no problem with the Bio, and the engine has not changed.  Its the emissions systems that are at fault.


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## Andrei

VW diesels last 200 K miles as average.
Real diesel engines go over 500K.
Yes, electronics and smog add ons makes them finicky and in reality that is what they want.


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## Melensdad

Andrei said:


> VW diesels last 200 K miles as average.
> Real diesel engines go over 500K...



I would love to see an actual study that backs up either of those statements.

I've owned entire truck fleets running medium size diesels.  I would be hard pressed to agree with your second statement, probably couldn't do it.  As for the VWs, that 'average' you throw out is based on what?


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## Andrei

My personal observations.


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## Melensdad

Andrei said:


> My personal observations.



Mine differ, on both.

400,000 for Medium Duty diesels is pretty good.  400,000 for VW diesels is what I commonly hear, but I only have 97,000 on mine in roughly 4 years with no engine related issues.


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## snowstorm

I live in mn and al franken is an asshole. the state vehicles are exempt from using biodiesel as are school busses,emergency vehicle, and the mines got an exemption also because this biodiesel is complete shit and they couldnt keep the vehicles running in a dependable fashion on it.meanwhile everyone else has to use this crap in our heavy trucks and equipment. I own both and its a pain in the ass. But as usual if your gov or have enough money you get a free pass.


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## Melensdad

snowstorm said:


> I live in mn and al franken is an asshole. the state vehicles are exempt from using biodiesel as are school busses,emergency vehicle, and the mines got an exemption also because this biodiesel is complete shit and they couldnt keep the vehicles running in a dependable fashion on it.meanwhile everyone else has to use this crap in our heavy trucks and equipment. I own both and its a pain in the ass.* But as usual if your gov or have enough money you get a free pass.*


Drives me crazy that government passes laws and then exempts itself from the laws!

Weather in my part of the country is too cold for BioDiesel in the winter, I suspect that there are only about 6 or 7 months of the year where Bio-blends of diesel would not be subject to "gelling" problems in many parts of Minnesota.

We treat Dino-Diesel with anti-gel here in the wintertime, but really only have to worry about it during Dec, Jan and Feb.  And then mostly just Jan/February.  While Dino-Diesel tends to gel in prolonged cold snaps when temps stay around zero (F) or below, the gelling problems exist with Bio-Diesel at warmer temps.  

Seems to me that the Bio-Diesel is superior in many ways, but NOT when the temperatures drop, making it far more suitable for drivers/farmers in the southern states than in the northern states.


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## FrancSevin

300 H and H said:


> If I read it right, it has nothing to do with raising E10 to say E15...
> 
> They are talking about total gallons blended nation wide, not the percentage in your fuel.. It will stay at 10%
> 
> The good news here is the raising of the biodiesel. You guys never complain about that one anyway. Bio diesel is a very good product that doesn't get constant bashing as does E10..
> 
> But hay, I use E10 with no consequences in all my engines big and small. Both chain saws started right up this spring after sitting for 6 months... So did the 2 cycle snow mobiles.. We're getting along with E10 for decades now with little/no issues..
> 
> Regards, Kirk


I'm with you on the biodiesel. Great stuff and we can never produce too many soybeans over corn. Better for the soil and the environment.

But E-10 has three of my chains saws in the shop and a large chipper stalled out. I worry every time I pour fuel in my 8N tractors ( I now have two of them)and my 1970 vintage 85 HP Chrysler outboard hasn't a chance unless I reconfigure the fuel system. All the current fuel lines are dissolved from the stuff.


My '95 Dodge one ton with a Cummins is running strong on biodiesel. Love the stuff. Except in winter.


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## Andrei

10% gasoline mixed with biodiesel in the winter might keep it from gelling. 
I use a blend of used vegetable oil, used motor oil, gasoline and diesel fuel with no problems.


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## Dargo

Andrei said:


> 10% gasoline mixed with biodiesel in the winter might keep it from gelling.
> I use a blend of used vegetable oil, used motor oil, gasoline and diesel fuel with no problems.



This is pretty well quoted by all diesel manufacturers; "any amount of gasoline mixed with diesel fuel will likely damage the emissions control components (DPF, OxyCat and SCR) and complete system failure could occur". 

I currently own 11 diesel powered pieces of equipment and have operated hundreds of others.  None have had any gasoline in their tanks.  I see zero reasons to think the manufacturer of my Diesel engines would make such a statement if it were not true. It would be particularly unappealing since my #2 off road diesel costs less than gasoline and doing so could ruin an engine that costs tens of thousands of dollars.  I see no reason to follow your very questionable practices.


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## Andrei

Nice.
You do as the books say and add additive to lubricate your diesels.
I do as I like and on 9 diesel vehicles I have none has any "emissions control components".
Yes, a diesel engine will stop right away if gasoline comes at the injectors.
But, gasoline is the best to thin down Black Diesel. 
And after you add some diesel fuel too it runs better then ever.
Better mileage.


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## Dargo

Andrei said:


> Nice.
> You do as the books say and add additive to lubricate your diesels.



*What book?!*.  The factory manuals state:

*GM*
* _Aftermarket diesel fuel additives are not tested by General Motors. Some additives, particularly those which contain alcohol or water emulsifiers, may damage your fuel system. If you believe that unique circumstances call for a fuel additive to be used, consult your dealer for advice._

* _Diesel fuel that has been mixed with engine oil or automatic transmission fluid could damage your engine and emission controls and potentially void your warranty._

*Ford*

* _ULSD can be used in all Power Stroke Diesel engines without need for any additives. _

* _Motorcraft brand fuel additives can be used in all Power Stroke Diesel engines if desired._

*Dodge*

* _Dodge Cummins diesel engines do not need any additive for lubricity with ULSD diesel._

You see, I tend to go by what the engineers who designed, built and have to stand behind problems say when it comes to additives to my diesel engines.  I completely and totally ignore the book of here-say that you seem to rely upon.  As in ALL of your posts; those terrible little things called *FACTS* clearly elude you.


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## Andrei

And that is why the diesel engines are failing faster then before. 
So you are accepting what they preach and follow like a sheep. 
The market thrives on people like you.


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## Melensdad

Not sure about additives, but I know that both my tractor (Bobcat) and my car (VW) limit the amount of Bio-Diesel to only 5%.  They both suggest Dino-Diesel.  My former New Holland allowed 10% Bio-Diesel blend.






Andrei said:


> And that is why the diesel engines are failing faster then before.
> So you are accepting what they preach and follow like a sheep.
> The market thrives on people like you.



Uh, Dargo has been affiliated with the automotive industry for the last couple of decades.

I think you are very misguided in your statement.


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## Andrei

Few Boeing 747 fly at this time with 100% bio-diesel.


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## Dargo

Andrei said:


> And that is why the diesel engines are failing faster then before.
> So you are accepting what they preach and follow like a sheep.
> The market thrives on people like you.



Actually, I believe the only "follow like a sheep" part would be for those who spend their money on Motorcraft brand additives when the line just before their sales pitch clearly states that such additives are not needed.

Otherwise, I am unaware of any advice, even referenced in court, that supersedes the directives provided for owners by the vehicle manufacturer in the booklet legally called "Owner's Manual".  As a blanket statement, I would say that one would be best served by following the instructions provided all new vehicle purchasers in their respective manufacturers Owner's Manual.  

If, by chance, something in the engine, for example, fails and you can prove that you followed the instructions given you in said Owner's Manual, I doubt any manufacturer would be able to escape paying for all repairs required that were from the result of following their advice.  Many of my best friends and immediate family members are attorneys.  Over the decades I have seen them prevail every time I can think of when directives in said Owner's Manual were followed by the owner; or as you call them, sheep.


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## Dargo

Andrei said:


> Few Boeing 747 fly at this time with 100% bio-diesel.



I know two engineers currently employed at Boeing.  Should I ask them if this is a fact known, and approved, by Boeing?  I'm sure I could have an answer by tomorrow.


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## Andrei

Dargo said:


> I know two engineers currently employed at Boeing.  Should I ask them if this is a fact known, and approved, by Boeing?  I'm sure I could have an answer by tomorrow.


No.
You could believe ME.
Hahahaha ......
Air New Zealand, Virgin Air and I forgot the third airline that fly's them. 
No gelling at -50C


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## Melensdad

Andrei said:


> No.
> You could believe ME.
> Hahahaha ......
> Air New Zealand, Virgin Air and I forgot the third airline that fly's them.
> No gelling at -50C




http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_biofuel


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## Andrei

Or you could go directly to the Boeing site.


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