# Ignition parts #s for Chrysler 251



## pixie

The original 251 that is in many early SW48 and J5 and even Muskegs is an Industrial motor. The auto parts guys need to look in a tractor book.
My distributor is # IAY 4004-1 which is correct for the Industrial motor. The number is on a plate on the top side of the distributor below the coil. Other distributors were on this motor in other applications and some of the ignition parts will fit the other distributors. 
The cap was listed as unavailable. So we found a similar dist. ( IAD 4040-1 ) and used that cap # since it took the same rotor, points, and coil but the condenser # was AL 869. 
Most of these are Echlin #s

Cap AL63 
Rotor AL62
Points CS725A ( gap about .019? )
Coil IC 14 ( has resistor in it ) IC 12 has no resistor.
Condenser AL 868
Spark Plugs AC Delco R45 ( gap .35 ? )

I'm posting this because a member asked me for the part #s. I didn't buy all the stuff and try it. If you find new info, please add it.

Disclaimer: Information on the internet is only worth what it cost you !


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## aulen2002

There are 2 styles of 12v rotor caps on the Chrysler flat heads.  One is taller than the other.  They do not interchange (nor do the points, etc).

The parts from the 230 car/truck flatheads (and the 251s) will swap from engine to engine, as long as matched parts are used.   There was also a 24v military system, and from what I read the distributer tang that fits into the high volume oil pump is off-centered whereas the 12v is centered. This end can be swapped allowing use of the high vol oil pump with the 12v dist.

Lots of good info at http://www.vintagepowerwagons.com/
Lots of parts at NAPA, CarQuest, etc. You just need to find someone older behind the counter that knows what a coil and distributer are


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## pixie

Here's some distributor info from that website.


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## DynatracGuy

I found that a good automotive reference is a 1965 Dodge WM300 Power Wagon.  Funny that NAPA didn't have it on storm computers, but did have everything on web site!  So I had to stand behind the counter and read off the part numbers from web site while clerk typed in the order.  Here below is some alternate parts I found through online documents:	

*Engine*	Chrysler Industrial, IND8 (IND8A?),  251 ci L6
*Used In*	1965 Dodge WM300 Power Wagon truck
*Spark Plugs	*Non-Resistor: Champion 871, Autolite 295  Resistor: Autolite 306, E3.52
*Ignition Wires*	O'Reily CH617, Autolite 96073, Xact 2601
*Condenser*	Echlin AL869, Oreily G124
*Points*	Autolite Dist.: Mileage Plus Electrical CS851SB, Oreily A85     Chrysler Dist: Oreily A110P
*Dist. Cap*	Autolite Dist: Echlin AL106, Oreily C143  Chrysler Dist: Oreily C190
*Dist. Rotor* Autolite Dist: Echlin AL107, Oreily D128  Chrysler Dist: Oreily D147


*Head Gasket*	Fel-Pro Gaskets 7688C

*Temp. Sensor*	Echlin TS6178, BWD WT127


*Notes	*Autolite distributor is 3.125” dia, 0.375” alignment tab.  Chrysler is 3.375” dia, 1” alignment tab.


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## FBKS_Ben

I picked up a 68 J5 and the only problem on the flat 6 that I have run into twice out in the field is, I loose spark becuse of mosture. I would like to get rig of point and put in a electronic distributor. Anyone have some ideas.


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## Snowtrac Nome

the points should work fine for you if you aer having problems look at your condenser if that is weak you will arc the ponts and cause metal transfer and pitting i have 2 years on my points now with no problems and my snow trac runs every day if you have moisture problems as i sometines do with snow blowing in to the engine seal the cap and distributor with some automotive silicone formagasket it will work for everything except total imersion


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## DynatracGuy

You can also seal ign wire ends with silicone as well.  I assume you are not referring to moisture at the business end of the spark plug.  Moisture there usually means bad head gasket and coolant getting into one or more cylinders.


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## aulen2002

check out petronix.... 

(i've been  looking this week.  Seem to have different kits for the chrysler and autolite distributors)


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## DynatracGuy

MDS makes an electronic ignition that can use the existing points.  With almost no current going through them they should last a very long time.  And you can easily switch back to original in an emergency.  I've purchased one and will try it out soon.  I've used a Petronics conversion on a Pinzgauer ex-military truck.  You have to replace the mounting plate that holds the points and install a plastic ring containing small magnets on the cam.  It works, but the kit must match the distributor exactly.  Since the IND8 has an Autolite or Chrysler distributor getting the right kit could be tricky.  The internals are different between them.  And going back to points in an emergency is non-trivial.


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## cdog

Old thread i know....
I just emailed hot sparks...they make electronic ignitions for many distributors.
He told me they did not offer a kit for the IAY 4004-1.
So my question is...what other distributors will work on the 251....so I may luck out and find one that will work and accept the electronic ignition?


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## cdog

After some browsing I have stumbled across langdonsstovebolt.com
They offer a ready to go drop in hei distributor for chrysler flat sixes...think ill try one out!


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## Snowtrac Nome

I've been watching this thread ,I can't really understand why one would go through so much work to change from points for the amount of time most all you all run your cats. it's likely most years I put more time on my cats up here than most and I only have to check my points once a year, in fact I have had more cap and rotor failures than points. thehei system sounds cool especially if it uses the gm style cap with the built in coil . the hei with higher voltage and greater space between contacts would be worth the money and time in my opinion.


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## rcc

Don... right on... I have pertronix ignitor in one J5 works just fine, original Points in another, works just fine and the new 251 rebuild will have the pertornix II and not started yet but most likely not worth the extra $'s but I just want to see what the diff may be with the duel spark... not sure I will expect to much more from a 125HP but we will see...
Over the last 15 years the points worked just fine...!


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## rcc

Here is a pic of the one J5 with the Pertronix #1564 ignitor pickup and coil, works real good and was very easy to install maybe 20 min's or so.


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## rcc

Looking at the stovebolt chrysler distributor, it is a vac advance model, not mechanical as the industrial 251, so you would have to port the carb body for a vac connection.


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## cdog

My rig has a new rochester carb ill look...
How much was the petronix?
I see vintagepowerwagons.com also sells an electronic ignition retrofit for both 3-1/8 and 3-3/8 diameter distributors..115 dollars i beleive...non vacuum advance .


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## rcc

Depending on were you get them,, I just ordered them from Pertonix $140 plus the new Pertronix 40,000 volt coil.


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## cdog

Pertonix 1564 says its compatible with IAY 4009.......mine is 4004....should I be good to go?


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## rcc

Same, they both use the 1564, on the Pertronix website there is distributor look up page, type in Autolite, IAY-4004-1 the module is 1564 I have one see the pic i put up exact same as yours it has over 200 hrs on it works great. you should also get the 40,000 volt FlameThrower coil from them, it is designed to work with this ignitor, see other pic. If you want to get real fancy, get the ignition relay package and wire it in for perfect setup. It works great with the relay so you do not have a voltage drop from headlights or other stuff turned on. It is not required, just thought I would mention it if you want the best performance from the ignitor.


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## cdog

Many thanks for all your help!
I just ordered the kit with coil...thanks again.


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## cdog

Finally got around to installing the pertronix.
No spark though.....but looking at your pic....it seems your distributor is turned clockwise much further than mine.
In my pic it is turned clockwise as far as it will go....and ideas?


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## rcc

If you removed the distributor, you should try with the rotor pointing the other way, you may be out 180 degrees.


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## cdog

I did not have the distributor out....the previous owner may have...but it was running. Even so I cant turn the body to be anywhere close to look like his regardless of rotor position.


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## rcc

If you didn't take it out then the rotor position is correct. When the engine was timed, it may have been set up with the firing of #1 in the next position of the cap. You need to be sure you have the wires on the coil correctly and the at the cam is seated, and the gap set using the clear plastic gauge provided in the kit.
? is there any spark from any of the plugs, with the plugs out resting (grounded).?


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## cdog

I only have one plug out..
So your saying mine may be timed starting with a different starting cylinder...seems odd....


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## cdog

I guess what im saying ....could the degree tab be attacked in a different location on my distributor? This also seems odd.


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## rcc

No not starting with a different cylinder, with a different distributor cap position. #1 cylinder is always #1, not the same for the distributor. Anyway you didn't remove the distributor so that is not the problem.
I you didn't loosen the degree tab that should not be the problem. My engines run at any setting on the degree tab, adjusted only to get best performance depending on engine wear, altitude, engine knock etc.
If there is no spark at the plug, it must be electrical. 
Does the cap snap in and on correctly?


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## cdog

Yes...cap can only go one way...and does pop into place nicely.
Have you jut one machine? Just curious if they are all similar to your pic...or have you seen any that look like mine?
I could be getting spark on another cylinder....but this must be 40degrees advanced compared to yours.


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## rcc

I have 3 J5's, two have #1 on the distributor as per the picture and the other #1 is in a different position. Again, if you didn't remove the distributor, position is not the problem. 

Did you remove the "ignition resistor", it is usually mounted behind the seat back on the inside of the engine compartment.  This needs to be removed as it lowers the voltage to the coil. New system has this looked after.
Check for 12 Volts at the ignition coil with the key in the run position.


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## cdog

Resistor was long gone...yes i have 12.4v at the coil.


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## rcc

One thing I should point out is, on the picture I posted, the engine was not set to "top-dead-center" on #1, it was in what ever position the engine shut off at, could have been anywhere, I think that is the same with yours, you just shut down the engine as I did. So unless you felt the need to try find TDC your rotor would be in the correct position.


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## cdog

Im referring to the body of the distributor itself?


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## rcc

Ok, I see what you mean, in comparing the pictures. It is easy to pull the dist and check to see if the adjusting plate has been forced or damaged. Just remove the screw and the dist pulls out, the are 2 plates under the dist that hold it in place and allow for adjusting, clean, check, and replace with the rotor in the same direction.


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## cdog

Ok....that makes more sense...ill have a try...thanks!


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## rcc

Hope to hear that you did get this working. I have done this conversion on all three machines and each one started up at the touch of the key. Hope I was helpful!


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## JimVT

my bet is on the pertronics pickup is bad. I had one go out on me.


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## cdog

We will know soon....im curious now about the warranty period....


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## cdog

After contacting pertronix and trying the tests they gave me...it seems the ignitor and coil are ok.
The only time i can manage spark is when i leave the coil wire off the coil....spark will intermittently jump from the coil tower to the negative terminal on the coil.
This is really bizarre that it wont travel down to the distributor and out the wires.
I have replaced every part as well.


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## rcc

Did you replace the cap, or check to see if the contact for the coil to the rotor didn't fall out, there should be a carbon contact / spring inside center of the cap.
 It is usually something simple as everything worked before.


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## cdog

Yes I have replace cap..button...coil...plugs..wires and ignition.
I can take the coil wire off the distributor....and get spark to jump a full 2" to ground...that lead me to think timing..
When the crank pulley is at 0...the button is pointing to the post on the cap to #1 cylinder....everything seems to check out...that is why I am stumped.


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## cdog

I am curious....is there any way to advance or retard a tooth....small block chevy style? There is no gear on the distributor...so i am guessing not.
I ask this ....because adjusting the slide plate under the distributor all the way....will "just" barely put the button on the #1 post....i would also have no adjustment left in order to time out detonation if need be.


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## rcc

Do you get spark at each spark plug? take out each plug, lay them on the cylinder head, connect them to their corresponding wire, turn the engine over and you will see if each plug is sparking. Easier to see if it is darker. Are you sure you have each wire going to the correct cylinder? The firing order is embossed into the cylinder head, make sure #1 is closest to the water pump.


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## cdog

Yes...i have tried that.
The only thing I can think....the motor may have been rebuilt at some point....and i am guessing the cam is out a tooth....that would explain why my dist housing needs to be turned so far...
I am going to remove the bolt that holds the dist....and turn it even further and see if my guess is correct.


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## rcc

Sorry I didn't see you recent post regarding the advance / retard. No the such thing on this engine. The distributor is driven off the oil pump gear, that the cam shaft drives. I would like to be sure you have the ignition wires running to the correct cylinder/spark plug. The firing order is 1,5,3,6,2,4 again #1 is closest to the water pump.
 This problem is something simple as you said, you didn't remove anything. 
 Man I want to hear that this engine is puurrrrrrring like a kitten and the power of a CAT! At first I didn't think that this system made a diff, but I see that starting and throttle response is much better.


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## rcc

This engine was running ok before you changed to the Pertronics???


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## cdog

Ill keep you posted...this is crazy....the time ive messedwith this......i coulda had a small block mounted and running by now!!


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## cdog

I have not heard it run....i bought it as is....in the woods with a broken drive sproket...where it quit is where i drug it out with the dozer..


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## rcc

Don't bet on it, a small block set up is major work, but I know what you mean. 

 I am changing one machine to an TH350 automatic using a newly rebuilt 251, I am now into it many months and $$$. Unless you want to race this J5 you do no need that chevy


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## cdog

How much for the rebuild on the 251?
I may source one and overhaul it...


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## rcc

OOOhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! I saw that post I think....

 Did you check the compression in each cylinder?


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## rcc

I did most of the rebuild myself, pm me your email.


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## cdog

No...i did not check compression....but i do know the guy that owned it well....he did drive it in the e oods to where the sprocket broke....so i know 100% it was running.


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## cdog

I just tried it in the dark....there is spark....but very weak.
What do you run for a gap between the pertronics and the magnet wheel?


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## rcc

You use the gauge in the box from pertronics, it is clear plastic piece. You put it between the cam and the module and adjust like you would do with the points. As there is nothing to wear out you normally do not need to do any other adjustments.

 Good that there is spark are you sure you have the ignition wires in the correct firing order... 
 Also, if there is spark and the firing order is correct then the no start is fuel related.
 Got your PM I will email you so we can see if we can get this fig out...!


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## JimVT

doesn't it have a piece that fits over the cam?


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## cdog

Yes that is what the magnet ring slides onto...
If I dont get decent spark soon im going to get an hei distributor from langdons stovebolt....


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## rcc

I thought from the beginning that this engine was running and you just wanted to upgrade to hei. But seeing it was not running, we need to talk about fuel, did you put a splash of good gas down the carb then try starting...? If the machine was sitting in the bush for a length of time, the carb should be removed and cleaned. Also, you need to be sure the fuel pump is pumping.


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## cdog

Sorry I missed you the other night.
I tried cranking it over in the dark...there is spark....but very weak.


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## rcc

Spark is all you need as long as it is firing in the right order... we need to talk fuel did you put new gas down the carb, just a splash and see if it fires...


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## cdog

No...I havent yet...Im not sure I can explain how pathetic the spark is...yes I do realize it doesnt take much....but it should easily be daylight visible....and audible.


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## rcc

I have a few mins can you give me a call at the number i emailed you?


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## cdog

Im at work....shhhhh...but I could this evening.


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## rcc

Ok, I will email you when I am back in this evening.


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## Snowtrac Nome

un like points, if he has weak spark I wouldn't blame the electronic unit. he should be getting proper coil saturation. I would suggest looking at cap rotor and wires if all are good, it's likely he has a bad coil ,and should replace it with one intended for electronic ignition.  also what is voltage input to the coil is it the full 12 volts there may be a resister some place causing a problem.


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## cdog

I used the coil from pertronix..no resistor.
I also tried the original coil.
I have full voltage at the coil....also enough when cranking.
I have relpaced cap rotor button and wires as well.


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## krustyman

I know this is an old thread but thought I would add my tidbits. I have a JW74 with the 251 and it has a Prestolite IAY4104A. The online catalogue for SMP is really only for new vehicles but if you call their support number they are able to provide part numbers for all the old good stuff. My distributor SMP part numbers are:

al4556xp             
al118x                       
al151                            
al138                     
2603W


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