# Snow Motor



## sno-drifter

Does anyone have info on these machines? I believe that the men involved were Ira Davidson and Ted Flynn, circa 1930's. I know they used one on Mt. Hood to build the original Magic Mile chairlift. Would one of you computer greeks please open these photos for me. Thanks.


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## redsqwrl

I think there is a short write up on the unusual locomotion motive web site?


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## DAVENET

A bad end-around, but for some reason a security failure keeps popping up when trying to convert the tiff to jpeg.


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## sno-drifter

Thank you Mr. Sqwrl, I will look for it when I get some time.

 And thanks to Mr. Net for making the photos show up.

 I am not sure if this is the same machine in both photos, the top one may have the negative backward. The lower is right because I know the background. My guess is that they are not the same machine from looking at the access door to the pontoon.


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## sledhaus

There were two examples of this style produced before going to a twin track design steered by clutches. These two steered by the sleigh pulling the drive unit side to side by a winch/cable setup. One was used at Mt Hood and the second at Sun Valley, ID. It now sits at a museum in Cedar City, UT.


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## Blackfoot Tucker

sledhaus said:


> There were two examples of this style produced before going to a twin track design steered by clutches. These two steered by the sleigh pulling the drive unit side to side by a winch/cable setup. One was used at Mt Hood and the second at Sun Valley, ID. It now sits at a museum in Cedar City, UT.



I go through Cedar City several times a year, do you happen to know the name of the museum?


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## sledhaus

I believe it's Iron Mission State Park Museum right in town.


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## sno-drifter

Is this the Sun Valley Sno-Motor?


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## Pontoon Princess

thought you were only interested in Tuckers ? 

are you feeling okay ?? 

do you need some Orange Koolaid ???


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## Sno-Surfer

http://www.amsnow.com/reviews/mountain-snowmobile-reviews/2013/09/travel-northwest-powder

I posted this before but it looks similar but they are calling it a snow snort. Looks like a 2 band machine with the same design. Supposed to be close to where I live.


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## Pontoon Princess

Sno-Surfer said:


> http://www.amsnow.com/reviews/mountain-snowmobile-reviews/2013/09/travel-northwest-powder
> 
> I posted this before but it looks similar but they are calling it a snow snort. Looks like a 2 band machine with the same design. Supposed to be close to where I live.



so so so so so so.......

where is it???


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## Sno-Surfer

I haven't seen it. One of my friends is in one of those pictures though, I'll ask him next time I see him.


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## aksnocat

When I saw the headline for this thread I thought it might be about this 1926 Fordson Snow Motor that was recently restored by the Fountainhead Auto Museum here in Fairbanks, Alaska.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/FountainheadMuseum/videos/?ref=page_internal


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## sno-drifter

aksnocat said:


> When I saw the headline for this thread I thought it might be about this 1926 Fordson Snow Motor that was recently restored by the Fountainhead Auto Museum here in Fairbanks, Alaska.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/pg/FountainheadMuseum/videos/?ref=page_internal



I think that this machine was called a Snow Devil.


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## aksnocat

http://www.newsminer.com/features/s...cle_6d650336-92ee-11e4-babc-67a6f3577824.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw-propelled_vehicle


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## Pontoon Princess

sno/snow-motor


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## Pontoon Princess

and 1 last one, 

does someone need some orange koolaid ?


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## DAVENET

You better take the Koolaid and an orange blossom pie up there immediately!


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## sno-drifter

But it followed me home and there is orange paint on it.


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## Pontoon Princess

file opened


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## Track Addict

Wow!


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## aksnocat

How does the single track version steer?


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## Sno-Surfer

Wow is right. I can't believe it took them this long to find it...
I got to see this in the flesh yesterday and it is something else! I also can't believe I haven't  seen more information on them, they were way ahead of their time as far as style goes. Now let's go find one of the double cab units! 
Please, please get this up and running, it's begging to move under it's own power again, begging to get out in the wild some more, begging to show us what it can do...

Now about that addition for the cat house, I don't see anyway around it.


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## Sno-Surfer




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## sno-drifter

aksnocat said:


> How does the single track version steer?



Cables between the motor unit and the sled unit. Tighten one side ,loosen the other, like a 420 Tucker cable steer.


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## Sno-Surfer

g





Pontoon Princess said:


> and 1 last one,
> 
> does someone need some orange koolaid ?



Love this open cab, or is that a no cab? Either way it's all business and purpose built for one thing only. Now if you tipped over in this, it might just run you over.


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## Cidertom

It sort of reminds me of a WWI British tank (  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_heavy_tanks_of_World_War_I  ) with the track design.


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## Track Addict

I like the built in safety.  When you start It standing outside the cab in gear nothing to run you over !


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## redsqwrl

Pontoon Princess said:


> thought you were only interested in Tuckers ?
> 
> are you feeling okay ??
> 
> do you need some Orange Koolaid ???



I think maybe there was too much orange Kool-aid that is more tucker than a tucker is. Sheet metal pontoon,
barn cleaner chain
more places to grease than sit.
Its all there!

so what would the model number be?>

a one one one.
Or 1K11

all dumb comments aside that is a really cool piece of over the snow transportation. I am glad some one with the right passion has it.


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## Pontoon Princess

redsqwrl said:


> I think maybe there was too much orange Kool-aid that is more tucker than a tucker is. Sheet metal pontoon,
> barn cleaner chain
> more places to grease than sit.
> Its all there!
> 
> so what would the model number be?>
> 
> a one one one.
> Or 1K11
> 
> all dumb comments aside that is a really cool piece of over the snow transportation. I am glad some one with the right passion has it.



hey hey hey, squirrel, boy are we having fun out west, love that orange koolaid...

these machines were built in Portland Oregon, starting in, and or about 1936 through 1952??? and from researched so far, my guess is about a couple hundred were built, mostly with Ford or Dodge flathead 6 engines..... the early model were T36 and our is a Model T38E1, with a Ford 6 flathead engine and a 4 speed transmission, built by the Iron Fireman Co. Portland, Oregon

and Yes, it will be restored and find it's way back on the sno...


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## Track Addict

We will ignore the fact it is a rubber track for the unique cool exemption and really it is one giant pontoon fit for a princess's magical powers to resurrect.  Looking forward to seeing the project and history.


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## Pontoon Princess

it will be pink


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## JimVT

I would like to find out how it works on the switchbacks.


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## redsqwrl

JimVT said:


> I would like to find out how it works on the switchbacks.



drive up one, back up the next.....
Repeat.


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## sno-drifter

JimVT said:


> I would like to find out how it works on the switchbacks.



Don't need no stinking switchbacks, drive straight up the mountain.


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## Mother Tucker

That unit gets "contraption" status.


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## Cidertom

for looking like an extra in "an indiana jones movie" my rough calculations show a really low ground pressure.  Almost to the point that I wonder if it has enough grouser to actually dig in and have traction.  using Van for dimension scale, and guessing on weights,  I'm coming up with 0.45 psi. do you know what it really weighs?

CT


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## sno-drifter

Weighs 5100 # Comes out to about .86psi. Remember there are three kinds of people, those who can do math and those who can't.


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## Cidertom

Thanks, I over estimated the track and under estimated the weight. I guessed 4700 and 26" track width.   what I get for guestimating from a photo: Wrong answer. 

CT


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## Blotto

I think this vehicle has missed it's calling as a crowd control musher.
Just the thing to clear out those ANTIFA protesters


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## sledhaus

Aside from the single track version of which only two are believed built (not including original prototype), historical accounts show likely only two of this two-man cab version built. This is likely one of the two shown in the photo at Camp Hale Trials. Army opted for four-man cab version. Four of them are known to exist.  This version was tested at Presque Ise, ME and Aberdeen Proving grounds. Too heavy and too large a turning radius cited. Iron Fireman factory burned near end of WWII and all records were lost. Military records state only 36 produced and referred to both Two-man and 4 -man can versions as the T36. I saw this machine on John's shelf ten years ago and noted the data plate. My guess it was re-branded for sale to Forest Service as T36 was military contract designation and may have been built for USDA and used for Army evaluation but not delivered as a T36. Original Iron Fireman promo photo identifies this exact machine as a T36. Lots of unanswered questions.


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## Pontoon Princess

the first photo is of one of the early style with the single track, photographed at Timberline, Mt Hood, Oregon.

the last photo is of a 1941 snow motor with a ford, flathead 6 cylinder, USFS was first owner and was used on Mt Hood, Oregon, Timberline to be exact, it is in original condition with it's original rubber tracks.

Iron Fireman Company was located in Portland, Oregon, on harbor drive.

I believe there were somewhere around 125 or so, of snow motors built, Union Pacific/Sun Valley, owned one of the first machines, it is now at a museum out of Salt Lake City, Utah


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## sledhaus

QUOTE][I believe there were somewhere around 125 or so, of snow motors built, Union Pacific/Sun Valley, owned one of the first machines, it is now at a museum out of Salt Lake City, Utah/QUOTE]

I've seen the single track in Cedar City, UT and I tried to make a deal with John on the twin track 10 years ago. I researched these machines quite a bit and have photos of all four 4-man cab machines known to exist. I found no evidence of more than 36 being produced which is from Army procurement records. That in addition to two or possibly three Forest Service machines and the original prototype. I am very curious where the 125 figure comes from. The 1941 would have come with a Chrysler flathead as did its predecessors and the machines that followed. The previous owner before John swapped it out with the Ford engine so I was told by his son.


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## Pontoon Princess

sledhaus said:


> QUOTE][I believe there were somewhere around 125 or so, of snow motors built, Union Pacific/Sun Valley, owned one of the first machines, it is now at a museum out of Salt Lake City, Utah/QUOTE]
> 
> I've seen the single track in Cedar City, UT and I tried to make a deal with John on the twin track 10 years ago. I researched these machines quite a bit and have photos of all four 4-man cab machines known to exist. I found no evidence of more than 36 being produced which is from Army procurement records. That in addition to two or possibly three Forest Service machines and the original prototype. I am very curious where the 125 figure comes from. The 1941 would have come with a Chrysler flathead as did its predecessors and the machines that followed. The previous owner before John swapped it out with the Ford engine so I was told by his son.



the Ford engine in the snow motor is Original to the machine and has not been changed out, everything about the engine install shows that it has never been out of the machine, only takes a couple of minutes to see it is original and untouched.

the first early ones did have chrysler 6's and later ones were offered with both Ford and Chrysler engines, one good source for info is the "two track rigid machine" web site, and it shows other sources for additional info. and if you are up for a challenge, will pay $1,000.0 if you can prove the engine has been changed from the Chrysler to Ford engine, fyi, sources show these machines were built up to 1950, for a total of 16 years.


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## sledhaus

I'm just telling you what a former owner's son told me. That his dad swapped the Chrysler engine with the Ford. I guess he must have lied to me. If the assumption that production went to 1950 is based on the photo on the Unusual Locomotion website I think that is a stretch. The photo caption likely means it was taken in 1950 while the machine was still in service with the Forest Service. The single track machine in Utah was owned by the family who had the concession contract at Sun Valley and when retired it went to their ranch by Cedar City and hauled hay to starving cattle after the 1948 blizzard. So machines built in the early 40s were still being operated in the 50s. I have video of that machine operating. I have Crismon's book and because it contains other inconsistencies I consider it a very good reference but not a stone tablet. I found no evidence that production continued after the Portland factory burned down in 1944. A year ago you were asking me for Tucker Patents and information on these machines. Now information gathered over ten years that I was offering to share is dismissed. I mistakenly thought it might be helpful or appreciated. Signing off on this one.


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## sledhaus

http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1960&context=etd

Page 112 in PDF (105 in actual doc). More lies we must assume.


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## Pontoon Princess

thank you for your info, the ford engine is original to the machine and it was built in '41 and happy to share the info on the machines i have, 

we were told the same story and could find no support for the claim that it was changed out. it is so common for these verbal histories to get away from the facts, no one lied, just retold a story without the facts to support it, and i agree that many times a date of a photo is used to say that something was built much later than it was really constructed.

thanks again for the info


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## Pontoon Princess

sledhaus said:


> http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1960&context=etd
> 
> Page 112 in PDF (105 in actual doc). More lies we must assume.



i have a copy of this one, and found it to be somewhat bias, given, Utah State was directly involved with the Frandee, no lies, just bias

there are numerous omissions and simple mistakes, though it is an good source of info if you use some common sense.

you should read the soil conservation review of the 1950 snow cat tests that was conducted in sun valley, it has a much different view of the machines than what the 1955 Utah State paper has, all very interesting to read.

all the period information is good to see and read, it expands our understanding of the history and stories of these machines

thanks again


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## nikos

http://locomotion102.rssing.com/chan-7087029/all_p1.html


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Nikos


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## Pontoon Princess

looks like the Iron Fireman co. of Portland, Oregon, had 2 locations in Portland, one was on Harbor Drive, river front of downtown and another out on SE 17 th Ave, looks like the company was in business through 1955 and could very have built Snow Motors in 1950, I do several other sources of info I need to do further research.


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## sledhaus

The attached Iron Fireman Co. promotional photo supplied to the US Department of Ordinance does support the Ford engine installation as the spark plug spacing and wiring conduit are clearly Ford as opposed to Dodge.

The Iron Fireman Co. was in business from 1923 until 2011 manufacturing all types of coal-fired boilers and later oil-fired heating equipment. They started in Portland but also built factories in Cleveland and Toronto and during World War 2 built Liberty Ship Engines among many other wartime items. Two of the Portland factories burned down in 1944 and 1945 so manufacturing operations were moved to Cleveland. Practically anyone who had manufactured an over-snow vehicle by 1943 presented it to the Army for testing at Camp Hale, Colorado. Photos show two Iron Fireman twin track, two man cab machines there. Some references say there were three at the Camp Hale Trials. The Army wanted to carry more troops so the three-man cab T36 was developed and procurement records state 36 were ordered. But the Weasel was chosen as the primary Army over-snow vehicle and reportedly over 15,000 Weasels eventually were produced. I know of no evidence that indicates production after 1945 and all records were lost in the fires. Forest Service archives may be the only source for early production information, since they did hold the patent for the two-man cab machine.

Although some publications have referred to the T36 as a Snow Motor, that is erroneous. As the promo photo shows the machine was called the "Snow Cruiser" by the manufacturer. 

Just as it is erroneous to call the Armstead Snow Motor kit for the F Model Fordson a "Snow Devil". The machine used in Truckee, CA that now resides in the Hendrick Ag Museum is said to have been called that by locals of the time. No where else in history was it ever called that until the Internet arrived. Just like claims that it is Henry Ford himself driving it in the 1926 promotional film. Ford Motor Co. had nothing to do with the conversion other than to manufacture the tractors they were used on. Even the three machines sent to Alaska to support the Wilkes/Eielson flight over the North Pole were not sponsored by Ford Motor Co..


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## Pontoon Princess

great photo, so much more to learn about this company thanks


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## Pontoon Princess

great photo from mt hood


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## Track Addict

Now that we have seen kristis running in the wild on to this mythological creature?


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## Blackfoot Tucker

That thing looks downright lethal! Imagine having that chasing you?

Interesting truck bed. If you aren't good at backing up square to something, just get close and swivel the bed. Clever!


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## redsqwrl

Track Addict said:


> Now that we have seen kristis running in the wild on to this mythological creature?



Allegedly

What is the motion situation where the car sits still and the actors have fans blowing in their faces......???

Kristy under its own power: I have seen it, I have driven one, I am 6'1" tall....

Two truths and a lie.


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## DAVENET

On the move


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## Pontoon Princess

Davenet, 

oh that is funny.....


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## sno-drifter

It seems that Timberline Lodge and Mt Hood Oregon is the land of snow machines. The Snow Cruiser/ Snow Motor was designed and first used there. Early Tuckers sharpened their claws there too. Photo probably from late 1940's.


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## olympicorange

sno-drifter said:


> But it followed me home and there is orange paint on it.



and the haul truck is classic also....  been looking for one of those on the east coast for awhile... cancer is bad here...


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## loggah

The elvin stoker people out of new york who the "iron fireman" was a trademark for  steam boiler stokers once in the 1920's owned controlling intrest in lombard truck and tractor co. It looks to me as they went backward a bit in snow transportation !! Don


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