# Proud Papa (again/still/always!?!)



## Melensdad

Melen is applying to law schools.

She has already received acceptance letters from: 

Ohio State
Boston College
Michigan State
Washington & Lee
Michigan State was one of her "fall back" schools, since she is accepted to 3 other top choices she has already declined the offer from Michigan State.

We are financially sound so she does not qualify for "financial aid/hardship type" scholarships.  She also does not qualify for any of the "diversity" scholarships or "minority" scholarships.   However she can earn Academic Scholarships and has a guarantee of:

$105,000 from Washington & Lee  

She is being recruited by quite a few other schools, mostly middle grade law schools, with letters that imply they will give her full, or nearly full, scholarships to attend those schools.  She is not particularly interested in attended those law schools if she has the opportunity to attend one of the higher level schools.

When she sent in the applications in Mid-November the schools all pretty much said that she could expect to hear from them *no early than the middle of January* but she has letters dated in the first few days of December


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## OhioTC18 RIP

Going to be a little biased here. The only one I am familiar with is Ohio State. Their College of Law is held in high regards.


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## jimbo

Melensdad said:


> Melen is applying to law schools.
> 
> She has already received acceptance letters from:
> 
> Ohio State
> Boston College
> Michigan State
> Washington & Lee
> Michigan State was one of her "fall back" schools, since she is accepted to 3 other top choices she has already declined the offer from Michigan State.
> 
> We are financially sound so she does not qualify for "financial aid/hardship type" scholarships.  She also does not qualify for any of the "diversity" scholarships or "minority" scholarships.   However she can earn Academic Scholarships and has a guarantee of:
> 
> $105,000 from Washington & Lee
> 
> She is being recruited by quite a few other schools, mostly middle grade law schools, with letters that imply they will give her full, or nearly full, scholarships to attend those schools.  She is not particularly interested in attended those law schools if she has the opportunity to attend one of the higher level schools.
> 
> When she sent in the applications in Mid-November the schools all pretty much said that she could expect to hear from them *no early than the middle of January* but she has letters dated in the first few days of December



W & L is a small school in a small town and is regarded as one of the better law schools in the Virginia.  That would be my choice, especially with the financial package.


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## Melensdad

OhioTC18 said:


> Going to be a little biased here. The only one I am familiar with is Ohio State. Their College of Law is held in high regards.





jimbo said:


> W & L is a small school in a small town and is regarded as one of the better law schools in the Virginia.  That would be my choice, especially with the financial package.



Lots of various "rankings" of colleges, graduate, MBA, Medical and Law schools.  

Pick any one of them, they are all somewhat different, but all somewhat similar too.  

Using the "*Smart Class*" rankings website:
Boston College is #24
Washington & Lee is #28
Ohio State is #31
Indiana University is #48

*Smart Class* bases their ranking this way: _ The smart rank combines traditional law school rankings with statistical data to determine an overall indication of the school's quality. This includes admissions selectivity, bar exam performance, employment rate, financial aid, student-faculty ratio, and attrition._

*US News* Ranks them differently: 
Indiana#25
Boston College & Ohio State tied at #30
Washington & Lee #40.  

*Above the Law* has:
Boston College at #16
Washington & Lee at #25
Ohio State at #27
Indiana at #48.



My thought is that any school that is in the TOP 50 on ALL the lists is probably a damn fine school.  If you can get into_ (and pay for) _a school that is in the TOP 25 on ALL the lists that is even a better school.  But there is a lot to be said about your return on your investment too.  If you land a job that will earn, long term, an additional $10 or $15,000 per year, but it costs you $100,000 or more per year to attend that school, then it might be a good choice but you can expect to pay off that extra $100,000 in "investment" for 15 to 20 years after you add in your interest fees.

FWIW, Washington & Lee’s tuition is $46,500/year - $35,000 scholarship = $11,500/year.  

Compare that to IU Bloomington at $31,800/year _(in-state)_ and all of a sudden Washington & Lee is a bargain.  IU Bloomington is the only school that she applied to that we qualify for an "in-state" tuition discount.  

Of course, other schools may also come through with scholarships???  I HOPE!!!   But Washington & Lee is the first one to mail a scholarship letter to our house.  

She also applied to some other higher ranked schools like *Notre Dame*, *Washington University of St Louis*, and *U of Chicago*.  Those might be out of reach for her despite her scholastic record because they are really really hard to get into for anyone/everyone.


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## Melensdad

Then there is the BOB METHOD, which seems as valid as any other.

Add up the rankings, by school, for each of the above 3, divide the total by 3 for a score.

*Boston* = 24+30+16=70, 70/3= *23.3*
*Ohio* = 31+30+27=88, 88/3= *29.3*
*Wash & Lee* = 28+40+25=93, 93/3= *31*
*Indiana* = 48+25+48=121, 121/3=* 40.3*

If you can get into #31 for about $30,000 a year LESS than you can get into #29.3 then I think #31 makes a lot more sense.


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## Big Dog

Awesome.................... congratz Melen!


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## EastTexFrank

Big Dog said:


> Awesome.................... congratz Melen!



Yup, congrats Melen.  Daddy is one proud man.  

Our oldest grand daughter graduates next summer with a Scottish degree in Business and International Law.  Her problem is that, after interning with our local DA last summer, she desperately wants to come to the States to practice.  I don't know how we are going to swing that one.


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## Melensdad

EastTexFrank said:


> Yup, congrats Melen.  Daddy is one proud man.
> 
> Our oldest grand daughter graduates next summer with a Scottish degree in Business and International Law.  Her problem is that, after interning with our local DA last summer, she desperately wants to come to the States to practice. * I don't know how we are going to swing that one.*



Where there is a will there is a way.  

That said, is your life insurance paid up


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## Melensdad

*William & Mary* just accepted Melen to Law School 

Smart Choice ranks Wm & Mary #21
Above the Law ranks Wm & Mary #23
US News ranks Wm & Mary #33

So using the BOB METHOD, 21+23+33=77  77/3= *25.6*

Here is the previous BOB METHOD ranking of the other school that accepted her:

*Boston* = 24+30+16=70, 70/3= *23.3*
*Ohio* = 31+30+27=88, 88/3= *29.3*
*Wash & Lee* = 28+40+25=93, 93/3= *31*
*Indiana* = 48+25+48=121, 121/3=* 40.3*

So based on the BOB METHOD, *College of William & Mary School of Law* is the second best school which has accepted her.  No word on scholarships from them, or any other school excepting Washington & Lee, which still makes Washington & Lee the most compelling choice due to value.

Her 2 dream schools are University of Chicago and Notre Dame.

I believe she a moderate chance get into Notre Dame, not sure she has the LSAT score to get into U of Chicago.


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## Melensdad

Today *William & Mary* kicked in *almost 50% tuition scholarship*.  Not quite as generous as Washington & Lee, but the tuition is lower at Wm & Mary is ranked higher.  The net costs to attend Wm & Mary would be more than Washington & Lee but it might be worth the added money to go there???

Here is the previous BOB METHOD ranking of schools that accepted her:

Boston = 24+30+16=70, 70/3= 23.3
Wm & Mary = 21+23+33=77 77/3= 25.6
Ohio = 31+30+27=88, 88/3= 29.3
Wash & Lee = 28+40+25=93, 93/3= 31
Indiana = 48+25+48=121, 121/3= 40.3

At this point if we rank by TUITION COSTS per year, factoring in known annual *scholarships*, and its likely more scholarships may arrive:

Boston College = $48,670
Ohio State = $44,081
Indiana = $31,800
William & Mary = $41,000 *- $20,000* = $21,000
Washington & Lee = $46,500 *- $35,000* = $11,500

So we have to start asking some questions about VALUE and what is the real benefit of attending a higher ranked school.  Is Wm & Mary, with a cost of roughly $10K more per year, worth the extra cost over Wash & Lee?  It is more prestigious but are 5 spots higher in the rankings = to $10K/year?

Melen has pretty much ruled out OHIO STATE as an option.  Previously she ruled out MICHIGAN STATE.  She also ruled out CASE-WESTERN RESERVE.  She has not heard anything from U of WISCONSIN yet, but she will probably rule them out no matter what they offer, if anything.


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## jimbo

Melensdad said:


> Today *William & Mary* kicked in *almost 50% tuition scholarship*.  Not quite as generous as Washington & Lee, but the tuition is lower at Wm & Mary is ranked higher.  The net costs to attend Wm & Mary would be more than Washington & Lee but it might be worth the added money to go there???
> 
> Here is the previous BOB METHOD ranking of schools that accepted her:
> 
> Boston = 24+30+16=70, 70/3= 23.3
> Wm & Mary = 21+23+33=77 77/3= 25.6
> Ohio = 31+30+27=88, 88/3= 29.3
> Wash & Lee = 28+40+25=93, 93/3= 31
> Indiana = 48+25+48=121, 121/3= 40.3
> 
> At this point if we rank by TUITION COSTS per year, factoring in known annual *scholarships*, and its likely more scholarships may arrive:
> 
> Boston College = $48,670
> Ohio State = $44,081
> Indiana = $31,800
> William & Mary = $41,000 *- $20,000* = $21,000
> Washington & Lee = $46,500 *- $35,000* = $11,500
> 
> So we have to start asking some questions about VALUE and what is the real benefit of attending a higher ranked school.  Is Wm & Mary, with a cost of roughly $10K more per year, worth the extra cost over Wash & Lee?  It is more prestigious but are 5 spots higher in the rankings = to $10K/year?
> 
> Melen has pretty much ruled out OHIO STATE as an option.  Previously she ruled out MICHIGAN STATE.  She also ruled out CASE-WESTERN RESERVE.  She has not heard anything from U of WISCONSIN yet, but she will probably rule them out no matter what they offer, if anything.



Bob, IMO another factor worth factoring into the equation is the question of where you intend to practice law.  Here in Va. a degree at UVA, W&M, W&L, will be more valuable than a degree at Harvard, Yale, or something similar simply because there are more gatekeepers in Virginia coming from those schools, making more opportunities more available.

I'm sure the same is true in other locations.


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## Melensdad

jimbo said:


> Bob, IMO another factor worth factoring into the equation is the question of where you intend to practice law.  Here in Va. a degree at UVA, W&M, W&L, will be more valuable than a degree at Harvard, Yale, or something similar simply because there are more gatekeepers in Virginia coming from those schools, making more opportunities more available.
> 
> I'm sure the same is true in other locations.



Agreed.  

She is considering coming back to Chicago, so at that point Notre Dame, IU and U of Chicago would be likely choices.

But she may, instead, choose to go to a coastal city.  Somewhere from Houston to New York.  Not the west coast.  I think those might favor U of Chicago, Wm & Mary and Boston.  Not sure if N.D. factors into the coastal choices?


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## bczoom

How about other costs at these places?  Room/board, food, general cost of living...


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## Melensdad

Picture just changed again.  

OHIO STATE is back in the running.  They just offered a *FULL TUITION* scholarship.

Boston College = $51,000
Indiana = $31,800
William & Mary = $41,000 *- $20,000* = $21,000
Washington & Lee = $46,500* - $35,000* = $11,500
Ohio State = $44,081 *- $44,081* = $0.00

From the quality ranking standpoint, OHIO is #3, only a couple spots below Wm & Mary.  Seriously doubt that Wm & Mary is worth $21,000 more per year than Ohio State.




bczoom said:


> How about other costs at these places?  Room/board, food, general cost of living...



Most are suburban settings so most would be roughly similar.  U of Chicago and Boston would likely be higher as those are urban settings.


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## bczoom

As soon as they toss in a full ride for free, that's seriously worth looking at.

A friend of mine who's now retired and a hobby farmer has a daughter getting her doctorate at Dartmouth.  100% free ride and they're paying her a nice 5-figure stipend.  I don't recall where she did her undergrad but it was at a top-tier place and that was a full scholarship as well.  I don't know if she would have that education if she had to take loans for the entire thing.


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## Doc

Melensdad said:


> Picture just changed again.
> 
> OHIO STATE is back in the running.  They just offered a *FULL TUITION* scholarship.



   Awesome.   Congrats to you and Melen.


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## Melensdad

Tulane University just sent an acceptance email with a $105,000 ($35k/year) scholarship.


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## NorthernRedneck

Wow. Congrats. 

living the dream.


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## EastTexFrank

The decision is getting more difficult, isn't it? 

I only hope that she gets an acceptable offer from the school of her choice.  

Bob, I love you like a brother but I'm glad that I didn't have to go through this.  I would have been a physical and mental wreck.  

Go Melen Go!!!


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## Melensdad

EastTexFrank said:


> The decision is getting more difficult, isn't it?
> 
> I only hope that she gets an acceptable offer from the school of her choice.
> 
> Bob, I love you like a brother but I'm glad that I didn't have to go through this.  I would have been a physical and mental wreck.
> 
> Go Melen Go!!!



Yup, more and more difficult but honestly these are great problems to have!  Work hard in anything and use what brain you have in a focused way and you will make your way.  Its now just a matter of choosing the best overall choice to fulfill her dreams.

I was also contacted by one of my fencers yesterday, she got a full ride to Indiana University and was just put on the wait list for University of Chicago.  She also applied to Duke and to Washington U of St Louis.  This is the team captain and my only senior on the saber squad, she is also 1st in the class and got the same ACT scores as Melen.  I've been helping her with college choices, applications, etc for the past 2 years ... Sort of a second daughter to me but without the tuition costs


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## Melensdad

Indiana Univ stepped up with a scholarship but its not good enough to move IU into a competitive position.

Boston College = $51,000
Indiana = $31,800 - *$18,500 *= $14,300
William & Mary = $41,000 *- $20,000* = $21,000
Washington & Lee = $46,500* - $35,000* = $11,500
Ohio State = $44,081 *- $44,081* = $0.00
Tulane = $50-ish - *$35,000*= $15,000-ish
Wake Forest = ???


IU is ranked below Ohio or Wash&Lee and is more expensive. IU is cheaper than Wm&Mary but is not nearly as good.  So from the value standpoint it appears our home state school is simply not a good value unless she wants to stay as local as possible for both school and career.

As it sits now, it appears Wm & Mary is looking pretty good.  National prominence in recruiting by big firms is very high, far higher than Ohio State, somewhat higher than Washington & Lee.  Its the most expensive choice now but still appears to be a good value and all in costs is still affordable, but not cheap.

Tulane Law and Wake Forest Law both accepted Melen in the past couple of days.  Tulane offered $105,000.  The school is the premier Maritime Law school in the nation but Melen is now looking at Contract Law so it looks like Tulane may have fallen off her radar.  Wake Forest's law school is OK, not much better than IU, and is more of s regional law school.  Doesn't look like Wake is on the radar?

Still waiting to hear about scholarships from Boston College and from Wake Forest.

Still waiting to hear about acceptance to her 3 dream schools, any of which she would choose over any school she has been accepted to so far:

Notre Dame
U of Chicago
Washington University of St Louis


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## Melensdad

Just an update ...

*Notre Dame Law School* put Melen on their "Waitlist" for entry.  Which makes it unlikely she will be accepted.  

That was one she had high hopes of getting into.  Being Notre Dame I knew that she had a 50-50 shot.  She had the scores and grades.  But scores and grades are only part of the battle at the highly selective schools.  She is pretty upset.  I understand the disappointment but I was less optimistic about her chances.  

She has 2 more schools from which she is waiting to hear.  Both are long-shots.  Wash U and U of Chicago.  I expect nothing better than 'Waitlist' from either of them, outright rejection from U of Chicago is statistically likely.  

On the bright side she does like Indiana University so its not like she is going to a bad school.  It is only ranked a couple slots below Notre Dame on the USNews rankings, sitting at #25 versus N.D.'s #22 spot.


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## Melensdad

Looks like she is picking I.U. as her school.

Met with faculty, dean, some students, even some alumni.  Liked what she heard.

She was wearing an IU Mauer School of Law shirt yesterday when we went out to dinner.  She seems happy with the choice.


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## Doc

That sounds good Bob.  Congrats to Melen.  She sure has sure grown into a beautiful young lady.  I remember pics of her helping you show the view over the loader from the tractor seat for the rounded New Holland vs Kubota or some other make.


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## Melensdad

Doc said:


> That sounds good Bob.  Congrats to Melen.  She sure has sure grown into a beautiful young lady.  I remember pics of her helping you show the view over the loader from the tractor seat for the rounded New Holland vs Kubota or some other make.


Thanks Doc, yup she has grown.  We are with her at Wake Forest now, can't help but be proud of what she has grown into


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## EastTexFrank

I agree with Doc, she has grown in to a beautiful young woman ... and smart too.  What a combination!!!!! Also like Doc, I feel as if I've watched her grow up.  You should be very proud.  

Our grand daughter starts at SMU in the fall.  She only applied to 3 universities in the States, was accepted to all 3 but chose SMU principally because she wants to practice in Texas when she graduates.  Besides, it's closer to her grandparents.   

All the formal stuff has been taken care of except that, coming from Scotland, she needs a student visa and they are harder to get these days.  We are her sponsors for the visa so it should be approved but it's still going to take a few months to work through the process.  

We're going over there for her graduation from law school in July and the tribe arrives here on the 1st of August to get her settled in before the term starts.  

While we're in Scotland we'll also attend the graduation of our other grand daughter so it'll be a twofer.


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## jpr62902

Congrats, Bob!  Any idea as to what area of law she wants to practice in?


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## Melensdad

jpr62902 said:


> Congrats, Bob!  Any idea as to what area of law she wants to practice in?



She was originally thinking Maritime, but now is looking at Contract law.  Maritime is apparently mostly Contract law, just a specialty segment, or so I have been told. 

She would like to practice in Chicago.


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