# Kioti CK30 resale value?



## Melensdad

I don't know about you guys, but I look at tractors for sale on Ebay to see the resale value of equipment. I regularly check for Kioti, Kubota, NH, JD, Mahindra, Cub Cadet CUTs, etc. 

I look for 1 or 2 year old machines.

Here is a CK30, with FEL and a Howse rotary cutter. It has ZERO bids. Minimum bid is $13,000.  It is a 2004 with 120 hours.

I'm actually surprised there are no takers.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Kioti-CK30-FEL-Brush-hog-4x4-Like-New_W0QQitemZ7566093912QQcategoryZ91953QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## Dargo

Hey, there's no reserve so you're in luck!  I'm fairly certain that I've seen that one on before, but I may be mistaken.  Maybe you ought to tell some of the blowhards on TBN about it and see how "absolutely positive" they are that Keeoti tractors have "every bit as much" of a resale value as Kubota.  Maybe they'll offer the poor guy $15k so he doesn't take such a hard beating.


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## Melensdad

Well I'm digging around a bit more. A Mahindra 3510 with FEL is listed and has no takers at $11,000. It only has 100 hours but is a 2002 model. So it gets roughly 33 hours a year!!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/2002-Mahindra-3510-utility-tractor-w-loader_W0QQitemZ7564879733QQcategoryZ91953QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

This is pretty amazing given what some folks claim about resale values. I was offered my purchase price for what was a 2 year old New Holland early this year. So I could sell my 2 year old tractor and walk away with 100% of what it cost me. Dargo has said he's made money on at least one or two of his tractors selling them for more than he paid for them. What is the real deal with tractor values and which brands really do have good trade in values and which will cause you to lose your butt if you don't keep it for a long time? 

My observation is that in my area, JD, Kubota and New Holland hold their value if they are maintained.  But it sure looks like some of the minor brands take it in the shorts on resale.  The 2 links I provided above are very typical of what I have seen.  Perhaps Ebay is just a bad place to sell tractors?  BTW in addition to 'throw way' pricing on Kioti & Mahindra, I see the same on larger Cub Cadets, as well as brands like Long.  I don't see enough M-F tractors to know how they fare.

Anyone else watch this stuff?


_
BTW I'm only curious about newer/modern tractors. It is common to make money on restorations and collector tractors, but the ones I'm curious about are the current machines of common brand names._


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## messickfarmequ

I have started running about half our good looking compacts on eBay when I have time. More often than not they sell at or above what we where asking for them on the lot. I'd consider eBay to be a rather accurate source for information. Lawn equipment is even more skewed than compacts when it comes to your major manufacturers holding value while others suffer. Its a real issue if you ever sell a machine. Much more so than any other product I can think of? This is not so much the case with cars is it?


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## Junkman

Last week a used Curtis soft cab for a Kubota BX sold for $1650.  You can buy a new one in the box for $1795 with a warranty and all the hardware.  What are the chances that a used one is going to have all the little pieces and nuts and bolts to assemble it?  I can't believe that someone would buy used to save $150, but it happened.  One thing is for certain, eBay buyers don't know the true value of many things that they purchase.


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## Doc

Even if they know the value, it is much like a live auction.  They get caught up in the bidding, and by golly, that other SOB is not going to out bid them!


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## Melensdad

messickfarmequ said:
			
		

> I have started running about half our good looking compacts on eBay when I have time. More often than not they sell at or above what we where asking for them on the lot. I'd consider eBay to be a rather accurate source for information.



If they are selling on Ebay for at/above what you think they should sell for, then doesn't that mean that Ebay inflates the value?  That is essentailly what Junkman pointed out in his post about the used Curtis Cab selling for nearly the same price as new.  And Junk & Doc, I do tend to agree that many people don't know the value of goods when they bid.  I regularly see various items sell for more than they cost in stores.  Combine that with what Neil wrote about tractors selling at/above what he would get on his lot and you'd think that Ebay would be a great place to sell a Mahindra or a Kioti (or any other brand) for absolute top dollar.  So with less than 1 day to go on the Mahindra listing and less than 2 days on the Kioti listing, why are there no bids?




			
				messickfarmequ said:
			
		

> Lawn equipment is even more skewed than compacts when it comes to your major manufacturers holding value while others suffer. Its a real issue if you ever sell a machine.



Neil, being a dealer, why is it that themajor  name brand (big 3) tractors seem to hold their value while the minor brands seem to languish at resale?  Is it all 'in the name' or do you see other differences as well?


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## Doc

Not my line of business for sure ...but I'll take a guess:
Implied reliability. Buying used is always a gamble. Buying a brand that has a good / dependable reputation give you better odds of getting a reliable lawn and garden tractor. Since buying used has no guarantees, this somewhat lessens the chance of getting someone elses problem. 

Okay Neil ...what do you think?


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## Dargo

B_Skurka said:
			
		

> If they are selling on Ebay for at/above what you think they should sell for, then doesn't that mean that Ebay inflates the value?


 
I have honestly "made money" when I sold 3 tractors as used that I'd purchased new. One of those was on eBay. It was a JD 4600 tractor that I'd put just over 400 hours on, and I sold it on eBay for an even $400 profit over what I'd paid for the tractor; including the original sales tax!


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## Melensdad

Dargo said:
			
		

> I have honestly "made money" when I sold 3 tractors as used that I'd purchased new. One of those was on eBay. It was a JD 4600 tractor that I'd put just over 400 hours on, and I sold it on eBay for an even $400 profit over what I'd paid for the tractor; including the original sales tax!



I've done the same with antique tractors but never with a modern one.  But if that is the rule, that eBay drives the price up, then why do we not see a bidding war for the Mahindra, Kioti, or larger 7000/8000 series Cub Cadet compact tractors on eBay?  Heck it seems like (at least those 3 brands) plummet in value.  

I'm really curious about the new Case/Farmall tractors since they have only been rebranding them Farmalls for the past couple years I wonder if they fall in value too or if they maintain their value do to the Farmall badge?

I'd also like to see some information on Massey Ferguson but as new models of that brand seems to be about as rare as hens teeth it is hard to get a good reading on the new Massey's resale values.


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## Dargo

B_Skurka said:
			
		

> Heck it seems like (at least those 3 brands) plummet in value.


 
 Have you not ever read any posts on TBN?! The very owners of those products have said time and time again that your above assumption is completely wrong. They always claim that they will pay within a few hundred dollars of new for a used tractor like they own. I'd say that most all owners of these brands only use TBN, and they don't know about eBay. Don't tell them about eBay either! Can you imagine how upset some would be to find out that they could have bought their same tractor for half price if they would have just shopped on eBay anytime in the last few years. Your life could be in danger if you upset 90% of the people who own those products. The other 10% are guys who may actually keep their tractor for 40 years (like 99% of them claim), and therefore, not be effected by resale.

Honestly, I'd have to say that those brands only represent a tenth of one percent of the tractors in my area. With that being the case, an owner of them would have to travel quite a distance for any service and parts, or buy their parts via mail order. The tractors may well be of decent quality, but I just cannot possibly consider one with the (let's be honest) huge resale hit and no service available. That is beside the _fact_ that I did drive to a dealer and I did thoroughly test drive and examine one offering. It really was not up to the standards of the big three; by a fair margin. I really don't know what to think of people who claim that they would pay more for their minor brand tractor than one from the big three. I'm sure most people think the same thing about those guys as I do. I easily understand the guys who bought them when they were several thousand dollars less than a major brand. With that not being the case now, (large price difference) I have to wonder about the continued viability of some of those brands.


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## Melensdad

Dargo, I hate to say it, but when it comes to anyting other than a Big 3 brand, what you say, and what I say, over on TBN really is ignored.  It might be fact, but it is not accepted as fact.  Let's be honest, objective discussion is simply not allowed over there when various brands are compared.

But I find the whole thing curious because when you compare tractors to cars the Big 3 tractors actually hold value, cars fall in value.  While some AUTO brands hold value better than others, they pretty much all fall 20% to 30% when you drive them off the dealer's lot.  But at least the Big 3 tractor brands seem to hold onto their original value (or at least 90% of it) over the course of the first 2 or even 3 years.  

Seems odd.  *ALL* car brands drop in value.  *SOME* tractor brands drop in value.


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## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

You guys are giving this Mahindra owner a serious inferiority complex! 

I suspect location also has something to do with it.  However, the resale value of the second tier tractors is never going to be as good as the established guys.  I think the guys at Kiotibynot have their heads up their asses with some serious "me too" complex.  They purchased a good piece of equipment with comparable specs to the big three but the fact remains that the dealer support and market share is just not there.

Bob is right though.  The big three tractors really hold their value (if reasonably maintained).  The others depreciate at a standard rate.


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## Melensdad

PBinWA said:
			
		

> You guys are giving this Mahindra owner a serious inferiority complex!



Not intended, but resale value is certainly something that many folks should consider, especially if they rotate tractors every few years.

But I still don't understand the WHY of the issue. WHY do SOME tractors hang onto their value while others do not? WHY do ALL cars go down in value?


 Is it largely the name on the side of the tractor?   
 Is it a trust issue associated with that name?   
 Is it a prestige issue associated with that name, and if so, then why doesn't Caddy or Lincoln hold value like a John Deere?   
 Is it dealer support/dealer network? 



			
				PBinWA said:
			
		

> I suspect location also has something to do with it. However, the resale value of the second tier tractors is never going to be as good as the established guys . . . The big three tractors really hold their value (if reasonably maintained). The others depreciate at a standard rate.



OK then, why won't the second tier tractors hold value? And is that the deciding factor that determines if it is a first tier or 2nd tier brand? And what is the "standard rate" of depreciation for tractors?


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## Dargo

B_Skurka said:
			
		

> OK then, why won't the second tier tractors hold value? And is that the deciding factor that determines if it is a first tier or 2nd tier brand? And what is the "standard rate" of depreciation for tractors?


 
I'll take a stab at that. For the most part, any dealership even remotely close to me that sells Kioti or Mahindra is, at best, a very small dealer. Most are sold out of yard barns along the side of the highway. People in general have to view these tractors as being lesser in some way because of this fact. I know that I would not feel comfortable at all investing a considerable amount of money with a dealer whose business is in a yard barn. I really think that Kioti in particular has set their place in my market area as being a "bargain" tractor that is sold from pseudo-dealerships. As I've mentioned before, two of the three dealerships around me have dropped the line.  Take that along with the fact that they came to this market as a clone of Kubota, and most people will not have a high regard for their products. I seriously doubt if they will ever be able to shake this concept that the American public now has of them. Therefore, whether deserved or not, I don't ever see them having any respectable resale value.

I may be wrong, but that is the way I see it.


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## messickfarmequ

I'd probably say its because of implied reliability and support. Granted, I am sure there are minor brand dealers who can backup the products - but many can't. The only Kioti dealers I have seen have 3-4 tractors (one place had 1 CK20 infront of a farm with a Kioti banner). I sure would not have faith that my internet purchase could be supported by those guys.

I'd also say its because on eBay people are looking for particular products and models. A Cub Cadet lawn tractor thats still current will sell for a 15% discount vs off the showroom floor - however once its a model year old your taking a 50% hit because the model is not saught after. The simple fact is that there are probably 50 people searching for a used Kubota vs 1 or 2 that would even consider a used Kioti. 


btw... I used Kioti because thats we often talk about - but it could apply to any brand. (gosh, there is my PC TBN qualifications creaping in again)


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## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

At one point in time, cars like Mercedes Benz didn't depreciate very much at all.  I think auto-makers have started to make cars much more of a commodity item and the prevalence of financing for luxury cars has also added to the much more standardized depreciation.

When I went looking for tractors I started to look for a used big three tractor but as I found out they didn't seem to depreciate.  The only reason I considered my Mahindra was that it was actually a Mitsubishi and had been a Cub model before so I figured I could still get parts and service from Cub if I really had to.

Tractors just don't change that much.  A big heavy tractor (in good condition) from a few years ago is pretty much the same as a new big heavy tractor coming from a dealer.  The fact that I could take a 10 year old JD tractor just about anywhere is certainly worth some extra money.  I know with my Mahindra that I may very well be out in the cold in 10 years if something breaks - or at least testing my MacGyver abilities. 

If someone isn't very mechanically inclined then they better only consider buying from a big three dealer if they want some form of long term support.

To put my purchase decision in perspective, I was seriously considering getting a Jinma in a box (there is a good importer in Oregon) but I just decided I like the Mahindra quality enough to justify the extra expense.  I almost bought a Kubota L2800 or JD 790 but I actually liked the Mahindra better and on paper it was about the equivalent (or better) for a lot less $$.  

Also, the Mahindra dealer was by far the nicest guy to deal with and he actually runs a good little operation.  Made the decision a little easier.  The big three guys in this area weren't really that friendly to this small tractor purchaser.

If I was going to flip this tractor in the next year or two then I would say I made a mistake but since I think I'll be keeping this thing for a while I should come out OK.


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## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Bob, maybe you are just a big three snob?  ;p

Kind of like the big fancy guy in his Mercedes looking down on the guy beside him in the Corvette?  Both are nice vehicles but they just appeal to a different class of person.

Just let us little guys think we are as good as you.  We all know that you are better!

(Bob - please don't get your panties bunched up.  This is post is certified 100% pure flame bait!)


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## Mith

As someone who has never owned a new tractor, and is likely never to do so. When I was shopping for a second hand compact I was obviosly looking at the older tractors. I was looking primarily at Kubota.
With kubota I could be guaranteed to get parts easily, the huge dealer netowrk allowed this. I knew I wouldnt get burned for parts at a particular dealer as I could just go to the next. Also the name is tried and tested, I knew Kubota was a good name and make, before I found TBN as far as I was concerned Kioti and Mahrindra were off brands that might not be around next year, heck, I didnt even know if they were Japanese, Chinese, Mongolian? So many uncertainties, I was happier just looking at what I knew. Certainly I expect many second hand buyers might have the lack of knowledge of brands I did, so would be more inclined to stick to the bigger ones.
I too wanted to buy a make that other recognise, if I said I had a Kioti around here in an area where few even have a ride on mower I would be blanked, with a Kubota most people would know what I was on about, respect!
As far as I was concerned I wanted to stick with what is tried and tested, well known and well represented as far a dealerships go.
I also knew that as I was, other people would be doing the same as me. I bought a used Kubota, used it for an hour and sole it for twice what I had bought it for. 4 people were interested in the tractor at the price I asked.


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## bczoom

I have a algorythms that I use for determining tractor (and other vehicle) values.

Whenever you buy a new tractor, like a car, automatically depreciate it 10% by driving it off the lot. After that, don't depreciate it by how old it is since inflation will cover age. That 10% may go up or down some based on the brand/model.  The big-3 might be a little less.

Now, take the usable engine live expectancy (on a CUT, probably 3000-4000 hours, again depending on the brand). Divide the price of the tractor (new) by those hours. 

On a CUT sized tractor, deduct $2.00/hour for wear and tear. This doesn't count routing maintenance (oil changes, battery...) but is for tires, minor body damage, leaks, bends in bucket... 

So, let's plug in some numbers. I'm going to use my tractor since I know the numbers. (BTW, mine is 9 years old).  My numbers seem to match pretty closely to what I see on e-bay or other sales for my tractor.

New = $12000 
- 10% = $1200 
$12000/4000 hours (engine life) = $3.00/hour 
I have 600 hours so 600 * $3.00 = $1800 
600 hours * $2.00 (wear and tear) = $1200 

So: 
$12000 
- $1200 (depreciation) 
- $1800 (engine hours) 
- $1200 (wear & tear) 
= $7800 <<< that's right where it should be. 
If you have damage to the machine deduct accordingly.


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## Melensdad

Brian, that is one heck of an interesting set of formulas you have.  It probably addresses all brands that have reached an age of at least 5 or 6 years old.  Newer machines probably won't fit well into that based on my experience, but I'd guess anything older than 5 or 6 years and it sure looks good.

By the way with about 5 hours left in the Mahindra auction, that machine is still sitting on eBay with no bids and a starting price of $11,000.  Seems to me a 3-year-old machine with 35hp/shuttle shift/FEL and only 100 hours on the clock is worth $11,000.  But it seems like it isn't.

Applying your forumula and assuming (possibly incorrectly) an original price of approximately $14,500 the forumula would look like this:

$14,500
- 1450 (10% depreciation)
- 362 ($3.62 per hour)
- 200 (wear and tear)
= $12,488 value for the Mahindra???


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## bczoom

Bob,

The formula can be tweeked for newer tractors as well as by brand.  It's one that I came up with for my JD but I don't keep up on other tractor values so   I have no idea if the Mahindra is worth $12,488.  Think that amount is close or too high?

I wouldn't know what to change.
depreciation percentage?
hour life expectancy?


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## Melensdad

Well given what I see on eBay, and using that as my only guide, I would suggest that for a tractor 0 to 3 years old from a Big 3 brand, the depreciation should be 5%, perhaps a bit less. I would also suggest that for a tractor 0 to 3 years old from any other brand, the depreciation should probably be closer to 20%. (assuming in both cases the tractors are garaged, dent free)

Now at roughly 4 to 6 years old I think the depreciation may start to level out a bit. And at 6 years or more, perhaps your formula might be pretty darn accurate.

I'm just guessing, but I would suspect that $14,500 is probably pretty close to the original price of the Mahindra? And since there are no bids with 5 hours left on the auction, one of two things is going on. Either it is not worth the $11,000 asking price, or people are waiting to the last minute to bid in hopes of getting it at that price because if it gets bid up in price it probably is overpriced.

If you go up to your formula and my price assumptions, but substitute a 20% depreciation for the tractor, the calculation would leave the 'value' at $11,038. 

Now if my original price is too high, and if the original price was closer to $13,500, then the numbers would be slightly different on the depreciation and the fuel/hour, but correspondingly the value would drop as well. Using your original formular, the 'value' would be $11,588 but using a 20% depreciation rate, the 'value' would drop to $10,238.


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Brian, here are the numbers for the 2004 CK30 that is on auction at eBay now. Again, no bids, 1 year old tractor. $15,000 presumed original price (based on prices quoted over on TBN for this machine).

 $15,000
 - $1500 depreciation (your 10% model)
 - $450 ($3.75 per hour)
 - $240 wear and tear
 = $12,810 value for the Kioti

 The auction lists a "Buy It Now" price of $13,750 and a starting bid of $13,000. 

 Now if we modify the depreciation to 20%, the tractor would be worth about $11,310.

--------


Now compare all that to my 2 year old/190 hour New Holland TC24, with an orignal price of $13,300 (tractor & loader) and a recent offer to buy it for $13,300 (the offer was from one of the dealers I buy tractors/implements from, so I presume they would resell it _for more money_).


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## Melensdad

Well just an update, about 2 hours to go in the Mahindra auction. No bids yet.  But there is another very similar Mahindra 3510, 2001 model year, 270 hours, with FEL that has 28 bids on it.  It is up to $10,080 and is 20 hours away from ending.  So I suspect the price of a Mahindra 3510 is going to end up being right around $10,500 to $11,000.  Perhaps the first guy, who started his auction at $11,000 just started it out too high?

Also the Kioti CK30 auction is about 23 hours away from ending, no bids on that one either.


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## Dargo

B_Skurka said:
			
		

> Also the Kioti CK30 auction is about 23 hours away from ending, no bids on that one either.


 
Now Bob, I keep tellin' ya to not wait until the last minute to place your bid.  I know how upset you and the Mrs. will be if there is an internet slow down and you miss getting your bid in at the last minute.  You're playing with your happiness here.  Bid now.  Bid high.


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## Viking

B_Skurka said:
			
		

> Well I'm digging around a bit more. A Mahindra 3510 with FEL is listed and has no takers at $11,000. It only has 100 hours but is a 2002 model. So it gets roughly 33 hours a year!!!
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/2002-Mahindra-3510-utility-tractor-w-loader_W0QQitemZ7564879733QQcategoryZ91953QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
> 
> This is pretty amazing given what some folks claim about resale values. I was offered my purchase price for what was a 2 year old New Holland early this year. So I could sell my 2 year old tractor and walk away with 100% of what it cost me. Dargo has said he's made money on at least one or two of his tractors selling them for more than he paid for them. What is the real deal with tractor values and which brands really do have good trade in values and which will cause you to lose your butt if you don't keep it for a long time?
> 
> My observation is that in my area, JD, Kubota and New Holland hold their value if they are maintained. But it sure looks like some of the minor brands take it in the shorts on resale. The 2 links I provided above are very typical of what I have seen. Perhaps Ebay is just a bad place to sell tractors? BTW in addition to 'throw way' pricing on Kioti & Mahindra, I see the same on larger Cub Cadets, as well as brands like Long. I don't see enough M-F tractors to know how they fare.
> 
> Anyone else watch this stuff?
> 
> 
> 
> _BTW I'm only curious about newer/modern tractors. It is common to make money on restorations and collector tractors, but the ones I'm curious about are the current machines of common brand names._


 
Bob, the Mahindra just sold for $11,000. This was the only bid and it came in at about 25 seconds left in the auction. Looks like the guy got a pretty good tractor for 11k. Just 100 hrs on it.


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## v8dave

Well, this discussion ought to get interesting over at the other place.

Fits right in with this discussion.  Wonder how long before the name calling sets in.


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## messickfarmequ

Bob, part of the reason that you got such good numbers for your TC24 is because its almost impossible to sell that tractor for under $15000 with a loader. NH has got to get control of that TC23/26 - they are $3000 more than a B7610! That machine has seen more price increases and most of the rest of the line - you made a good investment.


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## Melensdad

messickfarmequ said:
			
		

> Bob, part of the reason that you got such good numbers for your TC24 is because its almost impossible to sell that tractor for under $15000 with a loader. NH has got to get control of that TC23/26 - they are $3000 more than a B7610! That machine has seen more price increases and most of the rest of the line - you made a good investment.




Wow, so you are saying I picked a tractor that actually went UP in value?  If only I could pick a stock that would do that   Seems like every stock I invest in simply does this :  


As for the Mahindra selling for $11,000.  Seems like if we applied Brian's forumula with a 20% depreciation plus additional discounts for wear & tear and engine use, it would be just about right.  I'm curious to see how the formula applies to the CK30 and to future machines I see on eBay.


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## bczoom

B_Skurka said:
			
		

> As for the Mahindra selling for $11,000.  Seems like if we applied Brian's forumula with a 20% depreciation plus additional discounts for wear & tear and engine use, it would be just about right.  I'm curious to see how the formula applies to the CK30 and to future machines I see on eBay.


Before we apply my formula for a C30, should we take a stab at what we think the options should be?
I think the 2 primary variables are initial depreciation and expected engine hours.  Want to take a stab at those?


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## Melensdad

Brian, using your original calculation, but substituting my 20% depreciation for the Mahindra, pegged the "value" of that tractor at $11, 038. It sold for $11,000. I'd say your formula is pretty darn good . . . it is based on the assumption that the tractor's original selling price was about $14,500.

We will see more with the Kioti, but I have a much better grip on Kioti prices. In fact, a darn good price on a CK30 gear, FEL is going to be right at $15,000. It would not surprise me if the original price was a as high as $16,000. So we have a very good handle on the price range. With the unit on Ebay, we also know it to be a low hour machine, and only 1 year old.

I suggest we stick with your formula but use the 20% depreciation again and see if it sells. Using your formula, my 20% depreciation, and a presumed $15,000 starting price, the "value" of that CK is going to be about $12,810. The starting bid price is $13,000. That is not a 'bad' deal, but not a good one based on the formula.

Again, we are talking about minor-brand tractors with the 20% depreciation figure. I'd like to run the same numbers on some 1 to 3 year old Big-3 brands. Perhaps taking my TC out of the running since mine actually went up in value. Then again, if mine went up in value so did everyone else's who bought that model, so leaving mine in the mix would be valid. We'd just need a large sample to test the validity. And we'd also want to get numbers from Dargo. If I recall correctly he traded/sold 3 of his Big-3 tractors for at and above his original purchase prices and he kept those machines for 1 to 3 years. Thinking about it, maybe your formula is not valid for Big-3 brands under 4 years old???


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## Junkman

If you want to kick around the other Orange machine, use the BX series of Kubota.  There certainly seem to be a lot of them on the used market.  Granted that they are now into the  third generation of the machine in 5 years, so that might also have some effect on price.  Neil can supply you with new price figures.... I assume...


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## bczoom

Junkman said:
			
		

> If you want to kick around the other Orange machine, use the BX series of Kubota.


I was thinking of doing that as well as green.
Using the completed items on e-bay and plugging in some numbers.
But... I don't have new pricing (nor the time to do it right now).


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## Dargo

Viking said:
			
		

> Looks like the guy got a pretty good tractor for 11k. Just 100 hrs on it.


 
Yes, I agree. I think it would be the better deal of the two that are listed on eBay. My opinion does line up with Bob's "adjusted for minor brand" values, on Brian's formula for these two examples. Also, with the national exposure and number of people looking at the auctions, I think it would be foolish to not think of eBay's closed auctions for a value guide. Where else are you going to have so many people looking at your tractor? There are likely more eyes seeing a tractor there in 7 days than may see a small dealer's tractor in a year.


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## Big Dog

I have been hesitant to reply but after looking on e-Bay, I'll chime in.

I don't know what a CK30 with SS retails for but a friend just bought a new one with FEL for $13,600 so chances are the e-Bay listing ain't gonna fly.

Now let's keep an eye on this one comparable just no FEL and it's blue.....
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Holland-TC29D-Compact-Tractor-No-Reserve_W0QQitemZ7565304216QQcategoryZ91953QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

How about orange...........
http://cgi.ebay.com/L3300-Kubota-4x4-compact-tractor_W0QQitemZ7568124941QQcategoryZ91953QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Is this for real, no reserve? It's green...........
http://cgi.ebay.com/John-Deere-Compact-Tractor-Model-3120-NO-RESERVE_W0QQitemZ7565288338QQcategoryZ91953QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
or this

http://cgi.ebay.com/2005-John-Deere-4120-Compact-Tractor-4x4-with-400X-LDR_W0QQitemZ6017948482QQcategoryZ19069QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

BTW...........there appears to be a bunch of nice orange and green tractors for $5000 or less...........


----------



## Big Dog

Big Dog said:
			
		

> BTW...........there appears to be a bunch of nice orange and green tractors for $5000 or less...........



Yeah, I know they're hoaxes


----------



## Melensdad

Greg, just for reference, I *only* look at newer tractors.  Those aged 1 to 4 years old.  I also *only* look at tractors with an FEL.  I also look at tractors that do not have implements, or if an implement is included, I only look the ones that I know the value of.  The problem with all of this is that we really have to find some way to come up with an objective sample.  

So my criteria (and I have been watching this stuff for about a year on eBay) is simple.  
 --  Tractors sell faster/easier with an FEL and most CUTs have FELs and most buyers want FELs so I limit my observations to those tractors only.
 --  I only look at newer tractors (model year 2001 or newer) because I have a reasonable grasp on those prices and because new prices are posted on TBN on a regular basis.
 --  I only look at compact tractors (not sub compacts) in the HP ranges of 20 to 45 horsepower because those are the tractors I know the most about.

If we all want to get serious about this, then we need to pick ONE or TWO types of machines, set our criteria, and then apply it.  I chose the Mahindra because it fell into the category of the machines I am familiar with, and there were two on auction at the same time, and they were equiped the same way.  There is another Mahindra on auction now, fits my HP criteria, but doesn't include a loader, consequently I didn't include it.  Ditto the CK30.  Its an easy to find unit on TBN, price is easy to come by over there.  You friend got a heck of a deal at less than $14,000 because someone just paid $14,000 for a CK25/gear with FEL and was told he got a good price.  CK30s go for about $900 to $1300 more than CK25s.


----------



## Dargo

Big Dog said:
			
		

> Yeah, I know they're hoaxes


 
Damn!  I was wanting to buy that last JD tractor; again.  Those exact same frickin' pictures were used in scam auctions several months ago.  Yeah baby, that's good ole eBay looking out for their buyers!    I really think that eBay doesn't give a rat's ass about scams on their site.  As long as they are paid for their auctions, they're happy.


----------



## Big Dog

My primary reason to reply was the ck30, it just isn't going to go at the price he's asking and if it does GREAT for him! Now as far as the FEL goes, I sort of don't understand because your requirement obviously places more value on the FEL (or if you want tractor) than it was at original purchase. The resale value of the tractor is being manipulated by the FEL. Let's set some guidelines and do both! It would be interesting find. We all know the value of the FEL but alot of tractors in your catagory do not have them. I know I'm cutting fine lines but an FEL DOES make a difference in the value of the tractor.


----------



## Melensdad

Big Dog said:
			
		

> My primary reason to reply was the ck30, it just isn't going to go at the price he's asking and if it does GREAT for him! Now as far as the FEL goes, I sort of don't understand because your requirement obviously places more value on the FEL (or if you want tractor) than it was at original purchase. The resale value of the tractor is being manipulated by the FEL. Let's set some guidelines and do both! It would be interesting find. We all know the value of the FEL but alot of tractors in your catagory do not have them. I know I'm cutting fine lines but an FEL DOES make a difference in the value of the tractor.




Greg, the problem with all of this (your criteria & mine) is that it is hard for us to get totally accurate information.  A dealer would have it, you and I don't.  You are correct that the FEL does alter the price/value of the tractor, but as MOST of the CUTs are sold with FELs and as MOST buyers want a tractor with an FEL, and as there is absolutely no way for me to calculate the differnetial between 2 tractors that are identical except for the FEL/no FEL then I have to be practical.  So that is why I came up with my criteria.  The biggest problem is the "sample size" and with any survey, the statistical sample must be random but also must be able to accurately reflect the nation.  And the other big problem is that only real place I can find used tractor data is eBay and that may not accurately reflect, in a scientific sense, the true value.  In fact it seems to inflate values.  But it is what we have.

So to do what you ask would take a very long time.

To limit the criteria to a sample of tractors that are all very similar would likely still take a few months, but would be interesting now that we have some rational mathmatic forumula that we can apply to see if it fits, or can be made to fit by altering Brian's numbers.

If you want to do this, I'd suggest we pick something like this:  30hp, FEL, HST, model years: 2003, 2004, and 2005  No mechanical damage.  No cosmetic damage other than normal wear & tear.  Eliminate any machine that has more than an average of 150 hours per year.

Then we take that criteria and we look at every tractor for sale that fits that narrow band of criteria from every common brand.  (JD, Kubota, NH, Case, M-F, Kioti, Mahindra, Cub Cadet)  We would probably need several examples of each brand to come to any reasonable conclusion.


----------



## messickfarmequ

Junkman said:
			
		

> If you want to kick around the other Orange machine, use the BX series of Kubota. There certainly seem to be a lot of them on the used market. Granted that they are now into the third generation of the machine in 5 years, so that might also have some effect on price. Neil can supply you with new price figures.... I assume...


 
Any used BX package will sell for $1500-2000 less than new. Age, hours, etc don't seem to matter too much. While they may look readily available we have not had more than 3-4 (just about 1% of the units we sold). 

   Some of the factory guys I have been talking to suspect that in a few years the number of used compacts will start to increase substantialy. Their concern is that it will stall the sales of new machines and force them to compete with their own equipment thats now on the used market. As of now, there is so little supply of used machines that the pricing is high and they don't have to worry about it.


----------



## JayC

Hey, how about this beauty? Two years old, 89 hours, and costs more than the CK30 listed above.

http://www.agdealer.com/list/view_i...tID=70&Act=EQUIPVIEW&listpage=/list/redux.cfm

I've often wondered, when talking about the "Big 3", does Case ever figure into that being Case and New Holland are one in the same? If not, where does Case figure? Is it a "second tier" machine?


----------



## Big Dog

Bob,
Sounds good! I'm on the look out.............


----------



## Melensdad

JayC, I think there is some 'haggle room' in the price on a used CK20 that has an asking price of USD$14,800!!!  Then again, it is located in Canada and pricing is very regional.  

Perhaps we should add one more bit of criteria to my qualifications.  The tractor for sale must be located in the Mainland USA?


As for your question about CASE and if that is a Big-3 brand or not.  I honestly don't know.  Farmall is a very recognized brand.  I have been told (but don't know for fact) that there are more Case/Farmall dealers than New Holland dealers.  But in my area, Case/Farmall CUTs are essentially non-existant while Case AG tractors are fairly common.  The same thing applies to Massey Ferguson.  Don't see their CUTs around here at all but see big equipment all the time.


----------



## JayC

There are certainly more Case dealers in this area than New Holland. But I see more New Holland machines than Case or John Deere. I'm guessing the Deeres are hiding or something. :StickOutT The nearest Case dealer usually has a few CUTs on the lot. They sit there for long amounts of time. The Deere dealer, on the other hand, is always moving their CUT inventories. Sometimes, I wonder if the Case dealer ever does any business. Their new inventory never seems to move (maybe an ag unit now and then). They have a large used machine lot. That always seems to have changing inventory.

There is a Massey dealer about 7 miles from here. The county has a Massey that they cut the grass on the sides of the road with and fill the trucks with salt in the winter. A friend has one, but other than that I have never seen any. About 15 miles there is the aforementioned John Deere dealer and the Case/Cub Cadet dealer. I might catch a glimpse of a Deere CUT now and then, but not as much as the New Hollands I see. Deere, are everywhere when it comes to ag, though, with Case close behind. About 30 miles is another John Deere dealer, another Case/Cub Cadet dealer (same owenrship), a Case/New Holland dealer, Cub Cadet dealer, and a Kubota dealer.


----------



## Melensdad

*Hey Neil, question for you!

*How accurate of a guide is this? 
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-2006-Tractor-Blue-Book-Used-Tractor-Price-Guide_W0QQitemZ7561897582QQcategoryZ26195QQcmdZViewItem

And if it is not accurate, then is there a better guide?  What do you guys use at your dealerships?

BTW, I did find it cheaper at Overstock.com, Wal Mart.com, and several other sources.


----------



## Dargo

B_Skurka said:
			
		

> JayC, I think there is some 'haggle room' in the price on a used CK20 that has an asking price of USD$14,800!!!


 
I'd venture to bet that he'll have it around for his great-grandchildren at that price!  I'd have to assume that he is trying to make about a $6000 gross on that unit!


----------



## humor_me

B_Skurka said:
			
		

> ...at least the Big 3 tractor brands seem to hold onto their original value (or at least 90% of it) over the course of the first 2 or even 3 years.
> Seems odd. *ALL* car brands drop in value. *SOME* tractor brands drop in value.


 

Bob,
Maybe those tractor brands ought to be making cars too. There's a much better market for cars. That would be alright with me, especially if they also had extreme reliability.


----------



## Viking

The Kioti was a no sale...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7566093912&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

That should stir some shit over on KBN...Kioti resale really does suck...you really take a pounding unless you truly plan to keep the orange imposter for a very long time.


----------



## Big Dog

Viking said:
			
		

> The Kioti was a no sale...
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7566093912&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1
> 
> That should stir some shit over on KBN...Kioti resale really does suck...you really take a pounding unless you truly plan to keep the orange imposter for a very long time.



From a guy with a Cub Cadet (who btw has chosen Kioti for their 8000 series), jeez give it a break Viking! Can't you find it in your heart to cut some slack. You slam Kioti at any oppurtunity!

Sorry ya'll this post just rubbed me the wrong way! Especially with what I posted earlier......


----------



## Viking

My problem is not with Kioti tractors really. It's with those morons in the Kioti forum on KBN. Kioti tractors do have a serious resale value problem however and they are overrated in my opinion. They are not in the same league of a Kubota, John Deere or New Holland. Kioti is a decent 2nd tier tractor. Given the opportunity I will slam Kioti whenever I can just to piss off those KBN crazies.

Yes, I do have a Cub Cadet that was manufactured in the US with a Japanese Diesel engine. It's been a pretty good tractor that has done what I have needed it to do. I have no illusions of inflated resale values nor do I claim that it is the best tractor known to man. I know a JD 2210,or a Kubota BX2230 will hold their value better but I bought the Cub 5234D for several thousands less than the JD and Kubota equivalents. 

There is not a cult like, fanatical following as the Kioti seems to have and the Cub forum on KBN is not populated by idiots. I like and am aware that the 8000 series are rebadged Kioti's (nothing new to me) and if I needed a large tractor I would consider buying one, not so much because they are Kioti's but because my Cub dealer is fantastic and I know he and MTD would stand behind the tractor. They have done a great job for me on a couple of problems I have had with my 5234D so I trust them.

Sorry to piss on your Wheaties there Big Dog!


----------



## Dargo

Big Dog said:
			
		

> Sorry ya'll this post just rubbed me the wrong way! Especially with what I posted earlier......


 
Okay, in case you haven't figured it out, I'm guilty.  However, I gotta admit that the usual suspects at the other place just rubbed me the wrong way a few hundred times.  So, I sort of know how you feel.  I'll also admit that a big part for me is just having fun.  To be fair, I guess I'm due a little payback.  Feel free to go ahead and lay it on me for buying my wife a Honda Civic.  Yeah, I could have bought her pretty well whatever, but it was a Civic.    But, hey, it's what she said she wanted.  Really!!


----------



## Big Dog

I apologize again for airing my thoughts. I owned a Kubota for 8 years and at the time I bought it, it wasn't a Deere, Massey or New Holland. It was in the shop once because I thought my maintenance skills needed to be checked, not because there was anything wrong with it other than a broken tail light that I destroyed. I indeed know their quality. 

I plan on having my Kioti for at least that long so resale wasn't really an issue to me but quality and price was an issue. I have heard no more problems reported about Kioti as to the other brands and yes I did consider the ratio in numbers. I don't own Cadillac but I do Chevy, I don't own Kriegoff but I do Beretta and I own Harley, Honda and Kawasaki. I think you know where I'm going.

The reminders of the azzwholes from TBN for souring grapes should be put to rest!   , I now step down..........


----------



## Big Dog

Dargo said:
			
		

> Okay, in case you haven't figured it out, I'm guilty.  However, I gotta admit that the usual suspects at the other place just rubbed me the wrong way a few hundred times.  So, I sort of know how you feel.  I'll also admit that a big part for me is just having fun.  To be fair, I guess I'm due a little payback.  Feel free to go ahead and lay it on me for buying my wife a Honda Civic.  Yeah, I could have bought her pretty well whatever, but it was a Civic.    But, hey, it's what she said she wanted.  Really!!



Damn, wish I would have read this before my last post............


----------



## Melensdad

Well for those actually interested in resale values, the CK30 has been re-listed. Buy it now $13,750. Starting bid price $13,250.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Kioti-CK30-FEL-Brush-hog-4x4-Like-New_W0QQitemZ7568490681QQcategoryZ91953QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Now for those of you keeping track, this same tractor was listed with a starting price of $13,000 when it got no bids last time.  It is now re-listed and raised the price too.  

Seems like an odd tactic.


----------



## Melensdad

As for the Mahindra that was for sale, the one we were tracking here sold with only 1 bid, it sold at $11,000.

But there was another nearly identical Mahindra 3510 that was for sale at the same time.  It had a few more hours on it.  It sold for $10,600.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Mahindra-3510-W...ryZ91953QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


----------



## Big Dog

From our earlier discussion, these I believe are watchers. Bob let me know if they meet qualifications.

Buy it now...........

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7729306554&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

No bites yet.........

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7568307889&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

Active bidding..........

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7568523418&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

This Deere is a little older but it holds my interest, active bidding.........

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7569334130&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT


----------



## Melensdad

Greg, I'd say the Kubota and the first of the two JD's would meet the criteria, the older JD is the correct configuration, but already 5 years old.  I would suggest we limit our comparision to 2003 and newer.  

For a good study we should also pick 1 hp to compare, 30 seems like the most popular?  But as of now we have 2 at 30hp (Kioti & Kubota) and 2 at 35 (Mahindra & Deere).

As for the New Holland, I am not sure how accurate the New Holland auction is.  In 2004 the tractor should have been a TC29DA, not a "D" and the 7308 loader should have been on a 2002 and maybe a 2003 model year, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be on a 2004 (although I may be wrong).  Also the TC includes a mower deck, I would exclude it for that fact alone.  But I still quesiton the other stuff.


----------



## Dargo

Man, that NH one looks like a deal.  I'd be surprised if it didn't go.


----------



## Melensdad

Digging around a bit, I guess the TC29 was available with either loader for a while, which could certainly explain the old style loader.  The price does seem exceptional at under $14K.


----------



## Big Dog

The 2000 Deere was one I just wanna keep an eye on cause of the shape, brand and the active bidding. With the set requirements it's hard to find qualifiers. I felt with the help of forum idiots , we could make hypothetical adjustments for standard/general purpose implements (no hydraulic driven). COME ON BOB GIVE IN A LITTLE!


----------



## Melensdad

Greg,
Actually my logic is quite the opposite of yours.  So maybe we need to agree to disagree?

But I think that to test the validity of Brian's depreciation/usage model, the best thing to do would be to pick a very rigid set of criteria and apply it to several different brands.  ALSO, it seems like there is a plateau of depreciation that seems to occur at roughly 4 or 5 years were some level of depreciation stops or slows.  So if we pick 30hp, we need to take several brands of 30hp tractors, and then watch auctions for each model.  

I'd suggest we watch auctions for the CK30, LK3015, TC30, TC29, Kubota B2910, B7800, L3130, etc.


----------



## Big Dog

Ok, I'll deduct the $750 for the mower..........:rollingla


----------



## bczoom

B_Skurka said:
			
		

> But I think that to test the validity of Brian's depreciation/usage model, the best thing to do would be to pick a very rigid set of criteria and apply it to several different brands.


Bob,
Maybe not for this test, but I was thinking with my model, it should work for most any modern CUT (modern being within 20 years or so).



			
				B_Skurka said:
			
		

> ALSO, it seems like there is a plateau of depreciation that seems to occur at roughly 4 or 5 years were some level of depreciation stops or slows.


My formula has that.

In mine, a couple variables have to be tweeked my mfgr/model (usable life expectency and depreciation).


----------



## Melensdad

This is an interesting auction.  20 bids, 7 days left on the auction, but the reserve has not been met yet.  This does not fit my criteria.

Kubota L3130 with 723 loader & BH
http://cgi.ebay.com/2003-Kubota-Gra...569321654QQcategoryZ91953QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


----------



## OregonAlex

not dirty enough for ya.

I would guess the reserve is set to around 20k.  Got a long ways to go.


----------



## OregonAlex

lets see... you have been shopping clear span shops, used tractors, and saving money like mad... hmmm.. I see a plan unfolding in Mr Bob's head.


----------



## OhioTC18 RIP

OregonAlex said:
			
		

> lets see... you have been shopping clear span shops, used tractors, and saving money like mad... hmmm.. I see a plan unfolding in Mr Bob's head.



Also shopping Snow Tracs while trying to send the lovely Mrs_B out of town.


----------



## messickfarmequ

Someone should start collecting some data on all that we are looking at. Infact, maybe this could make a good article for adding to my site.


----------



## Big Dog

The NH isn't looking like it's gonna go unless everyones waiting for crunch time!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7568307889&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT


----------



## Big Dog

Big Dog said:
			
		

> The NH isn't looking like it's gonna go unless everyones waiting for crunch time!
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7568307889&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT



Not 1 bid??


----------



## Melensdad

I'm thinking due to the old style loader?

But then again, maybe eBay is a bad indicator of value?  But Neil said that he sells on eBay for more than he can get on his dealership's lot.  Lot's of variables to consider here and no answers.


----------



## messickfarmequ

From the compacts that I have sold - probably 3 out of 4 that are listed on ebay end up being sold to the buyer over the phone. You would be pretty dumb to buy a $10,000+ item without calling and asking some questions about it first. The items that went for more than we where asking on the lot had been garden tractors and some used implements - I've gotten good prices on compacts too but I would not say that a bidding war drove the price up. I did start things at my selling price to begin with, it might be different if they began at $0.01.


----------



## Big Dog

I'm sure this was disappointing........

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7568523418&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT


----------



## Big Dog

Big Dog said:
			
		

> This Deere is a little older but it holds my interest, active bidding.........
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7569334130&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT




My watcher sold but I'm sure it can be attributed to a reserve reduction!


----------



## humor_me

I thought _Kioti resale value was _an oxymoron


----------



## Big Dog

humor_me said:
			
		

> I thought _Kioti resale value was _an oxymoron



Can be taken 2 ways.......

I prefer that no one sells them after owning them. I think this thread is proving that resale value is set by the desire of someone owning the used product. Two of the top brands failed to sell in what I thought were very reasonable prices. The only one to sell was a JD. It was out of our qualifications but well under what I thought it would have sold for. Try to buy a compareable JD today and your looking at well over $20,000! Asking price on other sites for a compareable 4300 w/FEL is between $16,000-$18,000, are they getting it? So it appears Kioti is not the only one suffering (if this is the fact as others have implied) on the resale subject...........

I'm sure Bob and BC will have some input later!

IMO, there just isn't enough used Kioti(s) out there to imply lousy resale. There are tons of used big 3 tractors that are sitting on lots. My basis for the statement "desire of the buyer"!

Now humor me, humor me...............! May I be so bold to ask what tractor(s) you own?


----------



## bczoom

Being the end-of-year and everyone is spending their time/money on the holidays (and possibly preparing for taxes), I would expect sales on tractors to be down.

Without a large sampling of used Kioti's that have recently been sold, it's going to take some time to determine resale value.


----------



## Big Dog

bczoom said:
			
		

> Being the end-of-year and everyone is spending their time/money on the holidays (and possibly preparing for taxes), I would expect sales on tractors to be down.
> 
> Without a large sampling of used Kioti's that have recently been sold, it's going to take some time to determine resale value.



Absolutely on both fronts!


----------



## Dargo

You know, it just dawned on me (okay, a little slow) that it has to be some fault of dealers causing low Kioti resale.  We all know that all "non-Kioti" dealers basically say that they won't even take one in on trade, but I seemed to have forgotten that the Kioti dealer I visited last summer waited on 2 other customers while I was there.  (I was there for quite a while, that is where I got the pics of the Branson on it's top in the road - I helped during that accident).  One customer walked in and was asking about trading up his Kioti and the dealer wouldn't give him a trade in figure, but told him that he'd do better selling it outright.  The dealer explained to me that his customers generally get really upset at him on the trade in value if they are in within 5 years or so.  He also took a phone call and had a similar conversation; telling the customer that he couldn't give him a trade figure and that he, the customer, would be better selling it outright.

With basically all "non-Kioti" dealers pretty well passing on putting any trade value in a used Kioti and at least some of the actual Kioti dealers also being afraid of taking in a used Kioti, it would only make sense that the general public is going to expect to steal a used one that is on the market.


----------



## Big Dog

I wonder if we could get Rickie to chime in here? He would have to be a good source for this.


----------



## Big Dog

B_Skurka said:
			
		

> This is an interesting auction. 20 bids, 7 days left on the auction, but the reserve has not been met yet. This does not fit my criteria.
> 
> Kubota L3130 with 723 loader & BH
> http://cgi.ebay.com/2003-Kubota-Grand-L3130-4x4-Tractor-Low-Hours_W0QQitemZ7569321654QQcategoryZ91953QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


 
Sold..........$19,250


----------



## Melensdad

Big Dog said:
			
		

> Sold..........$19,250



I wonder what the original purchase price for an L3130/FEL/BH was in 2003?  If we had a ballpark number, we could apply Brian's formula to the sale price and see how the buyer made out.

Neil, can you shed any insight into what this would sell for on a dealer's lot?  I expect a dealer would charge a bit more, simply because private sales tend to be slightly lower than dealer sales (at least that is true for cars).


----------



## Big Dog

Big Dog said:
			
		

> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7729306554&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT


 
No go and relisted........


----------



## messickfarmequ

It was probably about $26,000 new, $19250 is a fair price for it.


----------



## Big Dog

Thanks Neil!


----------



## OregonAlex

When I was buying mine 

3130 HST w/ 723 FEL was around 19500  gear was $2k less
BH90 was $7500.

so I would esimate 17500 + 7500 = 25000


----------



## Melensdad

Big Dog said:
			
		

> Sold..........$19,250



Based on Brian's depreciation model here is what things look like:

$25,000 - $2500 (10% depreciation) = $22,500

$25,000 / 4000 hours = $6.25 per hour of use = $1250 (engine use allowance)

200 wear & tear at a fixed rate of $2.00 per hour = $400

So subtracting everything out.
$25,000
- $2,500
- $1,250
-  $400
= $20,850 presumed value

The selling price of $19,250 is $1600 shy of the calculated price, but this is a private sale so it might have fetched a bit more on a dealership lot?  Overall it looks like the Ebay buyer got a good deal, or Brian's model is slightly off, or a regional pricing variable is coming into play.


----------



## bczoom

B_Skurka said:
			
		

> BOverall it looks like the Ebay buyer got a good deal, or Brian's model is slightly off, or a regional pricing variable is coming into play.


And which will it be?
We did agree (I think) that my model may need slight "tweeking" for depreciation, engine life... but it's still within about 8% or so.


----------



## Melensdad

I have no clue which it will be.  I think we need a lot more tractor sales and a lot more calculating before we can come to any real conclusions.


----------



## Dargo

I guess I'm cheap.  I thought $19,250 was a bit high.


----------



## Big Dog

FEI................

From The Official Tractor Blue Book 1939-2005 Models / Primedia 

2003 L3130F......Values for TRACTOR ONLY!

Avg. Retail $12,900 
Trade in low $7,100 high $7,870
Used Retail  low $9,290 high $10,190
*
Brian's formula = $10,630*

http://cgi.ebay.com/2003-Kubota-Grand-L3130-4x4-Tractor-Low-Hours_W0QQitemZ7569321654QQcategoryZ91953QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


----------



## Big Dog

From The Official Tractor Blue Book 1939-2005 Models / Primedia 

2000 JD 4300 Hydro......Values for TRACTOR ONLY!

Avg. Retail $18,900 
Trade in low $8,320 high $10,020
Used Retail  low $12,470 high $13,800

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7569334130&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

Appears the buyer did very well!
*
Brian's formula = $14,840*


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## Big Dog

From The Official Tractor Blue Book 1939-2005 Models / Primedia 

2002 L3030HST......Values for TRACTOR ONLY!

Avg. Retail $17,316 
Trade in low $8,490 high $9,520
Used Retail  low $11,780 high $12,990

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7729306554&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

Advertized as a 2003, no listing for the 3010 in 2003, only 2002!

* Brian's formula = $13,780*

Appears to be a very fair deal but didn't sell..........

Seems used tractor buying is all over the spectrum, I won't tell you what Skurka found out but he's very fond if his NH24D........


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## Melensdad

OK so now do the math.  Does Brain's forumula work?


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## Big Dog

Brian's formula for the 3130 = $10,630

I incorporated Brian's formula into the ones I made the time limit on, see above..
Maybe the mods could give me a little more time........ 

Brian's formula appears to be running a little high, might suggest adding one dollar to the hour calc and the wear & tear figure.

Another thought would be to lower the engine life to 3000?

OK, who's the mod monitoring my work? Thanks for the additions!


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## Melensdad

_Poof!_  Brian's numbers have magically been inserted for you.


Let me insert the pricing from your book for a 2003 TC24 HST

TC24 - Avg. Retail $13,118 / Trade in low $7,080 high $8,130 / Used Retail low $9,970 high $10,630
TC24 Hydro - Avg. Retail $14,416 / Trade in low $7,790 high $8,940 / Used Retail low $10,960 high $11,680

I paid $10,300 for the tractor alone, plus $3000 for the loader when I added that.  I was recently offered $13,300 for both.  I'd guess that the Blue Book values are pretty accurate.

It appears that Brian's forumula is on the high side of the high range.  It will need to be tweaked a bit more.


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## Big Dog

B_Skurka said:
			
		

> _Poof!_  Brian's numbers have magically been inserted for you.
> 
> 
> Let me insert the pricing from your book for a 2003 TC24 HST
> 
> TC24 - Avg. Retail $13,118 / Trade in low $7,080 high $8,130 / Used Retail low $9,970 high $10,630
> TC24 Hydro - Avg. Retail $14,416 / Trade in low $7,790 high $8,940 / Used Retail low $10,960 high $11,680
> 
> I paid $10,300 for the tractor alone, plus $3000 for the loader when I added that.  I was recently offered $13,300 for both.  I'd guess that the Blue Book values are pretty accurate.
> 
> It appears that Brian's forumula is on the high side of the high range.  It will need to be tweaked a bit more.



Bob,

Do the calc on your tractor, only you know the hours!


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## bczoom

Big Dog said:
			
		

> Brian's formula appears to be running a little high, might suggest adding one dollar to the hour calc and the wear & tear figure.
> 
> Another thought would be to lower the engine life to 3000?


I wouldn't lower the hours as I believe the tractors in question will easily reach 4000 hours with regular maintenance.

I didn't do the math but does a dollar on the hours and wear/tear work out right?


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## Big Dog

Ok, let me clarify something. In my calculations I used the depreciation value for my engine hour calc, so this called for a correction that amounted to very little change. I recalculated based on Brian's correcting this error and then adjusting wear & tear to $4.00

Retail price - 10% =  Depreciation 
Retail price/4000 hours x actual hours = Engine Life 
Actual hours x $4.00 = Wear & Tear

Results from subtracting Depreciation, Engine Life and Wear & Tear from Retail Price = High Used Retail Value.

Values are from the equation above.........

JD 4300 = $13,947 ............BB = $13,800
I believe a adjustment to Wear & Tear after 1000 hours would then be in order!
L3130 = $10,165................BB = $10,190
L3030 = $13,192................BB = $12,990

We're getting close!

I believe a adjustment to Wear & Tear after 1000 hours would be in order! Maybe revert back to $2.00 for hours over 1000.......


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## Melensdad

Well it strikes me that I got a hell of a deal on my TC24D HST.
Subtracting off the $3000 for the FEL, I paid $10,300 for the machine, it has 200 hours on it.

Using Brian's method the numbers look like this:
$10,300
  -1030 (10% depreciation)
  - 665 (engine use allowance0
  - 800 (wear and tear)
= $7805 remaining value.

But according to your Big Dog's Blue Book = _Used Retail low $10,960 high $11,680

_The interesting thing is that I also paid far less for that tractor than the Blue Book listed the tractor's original sales price. * With the loader, I was offered $13,300 early this fall, which is what I paid for it.*  So I was offered a price which seems to be roughly in line with the Used Retail Blue Book value if you add most of the cost of the loader to their "Used Retail" but the curious thing is that the offer was from a dealer, so you have to figure he would put it on his lot for more than $13,300.


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## Big Dog

B_Skurka said:
			
		

> Well it strikes me that I got a hell of a deal on my TC24D HST.
> Subtracting off the $3000 for the FEL, I paid $10,300 for the machine, it has 200 hours on it.
> 
> Using Brian's method the numbers look like this:
> $10,300
> -1030 (10% depreciation)
> - 665 (engine use allowance0
> - 800 (wear and tear)
> = $7805 remaining value.
> 
> But according to your Big Dog's Blue Book = _Used Retail low $10,960 high $11,680
> 
> _The interesting thing is that I also paid far less for that tractor than the Blue Book listed the tractor's original sales price. * With the loader, I was offered $13,300 early this fall, which is what I paid for it.*  So I was offered a price which seems to be roughly in line with the Used Retail Blue Book value if you add most of the cost of the loader to their "Used Retail" but the curious thing is that the offer was from a dealer, so you have to figure he would put it on his lot for more than $13,300.



Bob,

It appears something just ain't right with your calculations. I'm assuming you have 400 hours due to $800 for W &  T. If so, engine life would be $1030 make value $7145.

Now for BB, lets say $11500 for the tractor and $2500 for the FEL = $14000. Dealer gives you $13300, ask $15500, gets $14600, he's up $1300!
Seems all good to me!

BTW........I don't see $10300 a normal retail price for that tractor! You got a hell of a deal!


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## Melensdad

Well I used $4 per hour for Wear & Tear, not $2 per hour.  In reviewing the prior page of the thread, both numbers were used so I guess something got screwed up somewhere?  Wear and tear is either $400 (assuming $2/hr) or $800 (assuming $4/hr).

As for me getting a hell of a deal.  I was negotiating with the Kubota dealer (_actually a new sales guy because I usually deal with the owner and he was on vacation_) and he wouldn't come down.  I knew the TC would out spec it so I called a couple internet dealers and got prices.  Called my local guy and he quoted a price lower than the Kubota but higher than the internet dealer.  I said I'd have to think, he sensed I had a better deal so he asked what it would take to make the deal.  I told him, he said "I can do that" so we did!  Being that I didn't ever test it prior to agreeing, he even said he'd order one spec'd to my desires, at no obilgation to me if I didn't like it after testing it.  I drove it and was in love.  The owner of the Kubota store came back from vacation, called my office and asked when I wanted delivery of a new Kubota.  I told him the story, he agreed he would have come down on the price if he was dealing with me, but he said I got a heck of a price.


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## JayC

It's not a CK30, but is a LB1914. It is a 2002 with only 70 hours. Currently the high bid is $5488.88 which is up $488.88 from last night. With all the attachments, someone could have a good deal.

http://cgi.ebay.com/2002-Kioti-LB19...ryZ91953QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## Big Dog

JayC said:
			
		

> It's not a CK30, but is a LB1914. It is a 2002 with only 70 hours. Currently the high bid is $5488.88 which is up $488.88 from last night. With all the attachments, someone could have a good deal.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/2002-Kioti-LB1914-with-front-loader_W0QQitemZ7573911847QQcategoryZ91953QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem



So far I agree............

Tractor only values.............

trade-in = low $5,150, high $5,780
retail = low $7,140, high $7,880


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## Big Dog

JayC said:
			
		

> It's not a CK30, but is a LB1914. It is a 2002 with only 70 hours. Currently the high bid is $5488.88 which is up $488.88 from last night. With all the attachments, someone could have a good deal.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/2002-Kioti-LB1914-with-front-loader_W0QQitemZ7573911847QQcategoryZ91953QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem




So far I agree............

Tractor only values.............

trade-in = low $5,150, high $5,780
retail = low $7,140, high $7,880 


Update............It's at $7100


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## JayC

Someone must think this CK30 is made of gold: 

http://cgi.ebay.com/2005-Kioti-CK30...ryZ91953QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## Big Dog

JayC said:
			
		

> Someone must think this CK30 is made of gold:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/2005-Kioti-CK30-HST-Tractor_W0QQitemZ7574710758QQcategoryZ91953QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem



Drugs are a terrible thing..............


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