# 1975 Snow-Master on craigslist



## teledawg

I saw this ad on the Anchorage craigslist for a 1975 Snow-Master that is located in Eugene, OR. 

Note the narrow tracks on it!

http://anchorage.craigslist.org/rvs/1214991898.html

*1975 Snowmaster Snowcat (Eugene, OR)*

Reply to: sale-p8ut4-1214991898@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]
Date: 2009-06-10, 12:17PM AKDT



Trailer included. Good wheels and tracks with 4 extra wheels. Much rebuilt or new, including 1600 VW Industrial and Transmission . Have receipts. Trade for buildable property, prefferably in the MAT-SU valley or cash offer. Manuals included. More pictures available. 


Location: Eugene, OR
it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests


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## couchloafer

I dont think they are narrow tracks I think they might be wide tracks that have had the inside and outside belts removed and cleats cut down.......what a shame 
I emailed the guy twice and he hasnt responded but he did read me emails double


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## Snowcat Operations

He did send me pics along time ago.  It does look like a nice rig.  The tracks have indeed been cut.............  He was asking 12K back then.


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## couchloafer

Here is an email I received from the owner Ron Hanks:

Kevin, sorry for the delayed response…………………$15,000 is was I’m looking to get out of the snow cat & trailer. 
You are correct the tracks have been cut & narrowed to fit on a standard width car trailer. The grousers actually look like they were made that narrow………….not cut down……not positive though.
I will send you some more photos tomorrow.
Thanks for the interest.


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## couchloafer

The grousers dont look cut down after all, they are just all intermediates in lieu of any wide ones!


Kevin, let me know if you need additional photos.
Thanks


_Ron Hanks_
_Construction Manager_
_Tool Tech LLC_
_cell 541-510-4840_
_fax 541-610-1914_
_ronhanks@tooltechcellular.com_


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## Snowcat Operations

In my letter from him he told me they were cut down to allow for easier turning.  He may not have known......  They dont look cut down.


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## hendog

Hey all, he still wants 15k. I did want to ask if anyone has the grafix ability to enlarge the snowflake on the bumper we would actually be able to get all of our ST back to orig!!  Any help you snow trac gods can be we would all appreciate it!!!

All the best!!!
Hendog


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## teledawg

hendog said:


> Hey all, he still wants 15k. I did want to ask if anyone has the grafix ability to enlarge the snowflake on the bumper we would actually be able to get all of our ST back to orig!! Any help you snow trac gods can be we would all appreciate it!!!
> 
> All the best!!!
> Hendog


 
Download the .ZIP file in this post:

http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showpost.php?p=261424&postcount=1

All the Aktiv graphics are contained within it, including the snowflake design for Snow-Trac, Snow-Master and Trac-Master!


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## mtnguyco1981

Snowcat Operations said:


> In my letter from him he told me they were cut down to allow for easier turning.  He may not have known......  They dont look cut down.



Any thoughts on how much additional speed the narrower tracks would provide?  The ST4B is geared lower than an ST4, correct? Also wondering if anyone has any thoughts on the current asking price of 12K, which accoring to Leadviller, could include delivery to Colorado.

I don't suppose Ron provided any additional photos of the interior?  Looks like you'd have to crawl over that bench seat to drive her.


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## leadvillerpm

He did tell me that he would deliver it to Colorado for $12000 and that he is firm on that price.  From some of the pics he sent me it does look like the grousers may have been cut down.  I don't think that the modified tracks would give you any increased speed as these machines are geared lower.  You may have some increased acceleration do to less mass in motion.

As far as the price the rig does appear to be in good condition, but if I was to buy a snow master I would want those full tracks.

I did find another st4b in Minnesota for sale.  It is a 2 man cab and has no fenders.  I talked with the owner of it and he says that it appear to have never had fenders.  I believe his asking price was $7500.

Here's the link:

Minnesota Outdoor Sports Specialties 

Ryan


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## mtnguyco1981

Leadviller, I saw a post of yours a little while back where you mentioned that the narrower st4 would be a better fit for the type of trails you have near your place.  I'm in the same boat here. Forest service access roads behind my house in Blue River are on the narrow side and with the amount of sled traffic they see I don't think anyone would be able to get around me if I had the wider-tracked rig. 

I'd also like a machine that I could trailer up to Vail Pass for some cat skiing and I think the Snow Master might be a bit overkill for me to tow at around 8'6". This machine seemed like it might be a good fit, given its narrower footprint and good condition, but I'm not so sure about sacrificing speed and getting less flotation due to those cut down tracks. 

Thanks for the link to the other ST4. She looks clean. I'm definitely in the market for a full cab though, since I'd primarily use her for backcountry ski and snowboard access, even if it just meant getting up high and touring or split boarding from there.


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## leadvillerpm

I have seen some people build custom cabs for the back of a snow trac and turning a 2 man cab into a full cab.  I believe you can take the back section of the 2 man cab unbolt it and then move it to the back.  Then you could do a canvas or sheet metal section between them.  That is what is was considering for awhile until I found the st4 in Alaska.

If you are going to use a snow trac mainly on trails that are used very often (like Vail pass)  where is gets packed out quickly I think an st4 would work just fine.

The area I go in gets pretty deep,  but I am up there almost every week (with snowmobiles) and maintain some good packed trails that we use for back country skiing.  Can't wait to keep those trails packed with the snow trac.

Ryan


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## Snowtrac Nome

i dont know what type of snow contitions you guys are driving in but until i got the big thaw and refreeze around here i was crusing through powder between 6 and 12ft deep i could not climb the hills that i can now that i have the frozen base i however was easyly going through snow that snowmachines would not try to stop in with my snow trac at times pushing through drifts that came over the hood most of the trails i broke are being used by snow machines now i wont say its un stoppable but don't under estamate what this little machine will do also the snow master running gear will put down less ground pressure than a snow trac even with the narrow tracks because of the longer chassis and track.


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## leadvillerpm

From how your describing your machine I don't think there is anywhere I won't be able to take one of these around here.  Can't wait to find out.

Have you ever got yours stuck?


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## mtnguyco1981

dds said:


> i wont say its un stoppable but don't under estamate what this little machine will do also the snow master running gear will put down less ground pressure than a snow trac even with the narrow tracks because of the longer chassis and track.



That's a good point that I hadn't considered in regards to the longer track.  Would you estimate the top speed of the narrow-tracked master to be about 13mph?


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## leadvillerpm

I did the calculations for the snow pressure (psi) for the snow tracs when I was thinking about purchasing this snow master.

stock snow track - .5psi
stock snow master - .3psi
snow master with snow trac width tracks - .55psi

The snow master tracks are only 8 inches longer which does not make up for the added weight (over 400lb heavier than a snow trac)

So if you buy a snow master with cut tracks it is slower and does not float as good as a snow trac.

Doesn't make much sense to go that route to me.

Ryan


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## mtnguyco1981

Hey, Thanks. Great info.  I'll pass on this one.


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## Snowtrac Nome

leadvillerpm said:


> I did the calculations for the snow pressure (psi) for the snow tracs when I was thinking about purchasing this snow master.
> 
> stock snow track - .5psi
> stock snow master - .3psi
> snow master with snow trac width tracks - .55psi
> 
> The snow master tracks are only 8 inches longer which does not make up for the added weight (over 400lb heavier than a snow trac)
> 
> So if you buy a snow master with cut tracks it is slower and does not float as good as a snow trac.
> 
> Doesn't make much sense to go that route to me.
> 
> Ryan


 that is interesting didn't think there was that much more weight to extending the track out the back i have known some people ho have chopped the snow master tracks and they did it only because the primary use of the rig was to cross soft ground up by eurika  while hunting and all the hard ground in between would break the grousers when on rocks or in ruts dont think they saw much snow


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## Snowtrac Nome

leadvillerpm said:


> From how your describing your machine I don't think there is anywhere I won't be able to take one of these around here. Can't wait to find out.
> 
> Have you ever got yours stuck?


 i have needed assistance only 2 times got against a fence by the airport on a side hill didn't want to do damage to the fence or machine took a 966 to swing the backaround segond time on a recent S&R mission i nosed over into a blow hole and smashed up a fender and broke an axle tube see mini truck fails for the pics if i had not broken parts it would have backed out almoste did it with only one track


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## leadvillerpm

Safetyone has pdf files of all the specs of the snow trac and snow master.

Here is the link:    Safety One International, Activ Snowcat Specifications

snow master dry weight 3080lb 
snow trac dry weight 2600lb


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## Snowtrac Nome

leadvillerpm said:


> From how your describing your machine I don't think there is anywhere I won't be able to take one of these around here. Can't wait to find out.
> 
> Have you ever got yours stuck?


 the one mod you may want to look at check out my new bumber snow cat sledong post  its 2x2 3/16 square tube replacing the old bumper affords much more protection for thr front end which is pretty soft than the factory bumper did with min weight gain just a little insurance for the front axle housings if things get out of control.


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## hendog

I do have some info on the getting stuck thing, I bought my ST from a club in BC and they accidently slipped off a ridge while running up the mountain, whet into 12+ feet of snow/ untracked powder, the ST vanished, they all thought it went down the whole mountain. Then they saw the snow moving like a gopher under the snow, they radioed back and forth and he drove right out, NO BS now  thats a snow cat!!!  STs rule!!!!

Wish I saw a pic of that!! 

The only slight trouble I have is climbing my logging road in a very steep section with 5feet of powder I sometimes need to cut back and forth or back down and restart but that the most issue I have had, They really do climb!


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## mtnguyco1981

I talked to the owner of this Snow Master tonight.  He's still pretty firm at 12K but will deliver it pretty much anywhere in the west for that amount, which seems somewhat reasonable when considering transportation costs.  He also let me know that he'll drop the price $500 for anyone willing to come pick it up.  

The previous owner had installed the bench seat, which needs to be climbed over in order to drive it.  The standard seating configuration is still present behind the bench. Tires have been foam filled.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this one?  It's definitely a bit unique in its configuration.  Is the yellowish looking tank to the left of the driver an auxiliary heater?


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## Snowtrac Nome

chatting with lyndon he thinks  that is the snow master my dad haad bought out of the auction  in fairbanks in the 80'sfunny he sold it for 15 k back than and now they want 12 k for it holding its value pretty good.


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## mtnguyco1981

I'm also curious if anyone knows what makes the Snow Master so much heavier than a Snow Trac.  The weight difference can't simply be accounted for by track size/length.  




mtnguyco1981 said:


> I talked to the owner of this Snow Master tonight.  He's still pretty firm at 12K but will deliver it pretty much anywhere in the west for that amount, which seems somewhat reasonable when considering transportation costs.  He also let me know that he'll drop the price $500 for anyone willing to come pick it up.
> 
> The previous owner had installed the bench seat, which needs to be climbed over in order to drive it.  The standard seating configuration is still present behind the bench. Tires have been foam filled.
> 
> Anyone else have any thoughts on this one?  It's definitely a bit unique in its configuration.  Is the yellowish looking tank to the left of the driver an auxiliary heater?


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## Snowtrac Nome

not ever taking one apart  i would guess its the frame work to accomadate the longer wider track  that extra pound here and there adds up quick


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## JSX

mtnguyco1981 said:


> I'm also curious if anyone knows what makes the Snow Master so much heavier than a Snow Trac.  The weight difference can't simply be accounted for by track size/length.



The track difference is probably more than you would think. There are 4 additional belts, the tracks are approx 3' longer for a total of approx 10 extra grousers per side, and the added length of every third grouser. The grousers themselves are different as well, more parts built up for the Track-Masters. 

Like DDS said, the frame is wider, also the front fenders are wider with additional steel reinforcement. The front bumper is wider.

The front drive gears are also a little larger, to gear it down.


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## leadvillerpm

I redid the calculation for you on that cut track snow master.  If you say that cutting the outer bands off the track removes half of the extra weight of the snow master (200lb) you still get a psi calculation of .51 psi.  That is still about the same as a snow trac at .5 psi and I believe that 200lb is generous when it comes to how much weight is really removed by cutting the track.

Another thing you may want to think about is my st4 seems to top out at around 19mph here in Leadville.  This may be do to the decreased hp at altitude.  Most people with an st4 at sea level clam to get them up to 25mph.

Now a snow master at sea level is said to go around 13mph.  It may or may not get to those speeds at this elevation.  I would guess that it would do to the lower gearing, but I haven't talked with anyone who has driven one at this kind of elevation.

Ryan


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## mtnguyco1981

Ryan,

How difficult would it be to modify the transmission so that it would be geared more akin to that of an st4?  If that could be accomplished it seems like you would have a pretty nice compromise between the narrower width for this area's tighter roads/trails and the somewhat longer tracks with more aggressive grousers for the deep stuff up high.   

Ben



leadvillerpm said:


> I redid the calculation for you on that cut track snow master.  If you say that cutting the outer bands off the track removes half of the extra weight of the snow master (200lb) you still get a psi calculation of .51 psi.  That is still about the same as a snow trac at .5 psi and I believe that 200lb is generous when it comes to how much weight is really removed by cutting the track.
> 
> Another thing you may want to think about is my st4 seems to top out at around 19mph here in Leadville.  This may be do to the decreased hp at altitude.  Most people with an st4 at sea level clam to get them up to 25mph.
> 
> Now a snow master at sea level is said to go around 13mph.  It may or may not get to those speeds at this elevation.  I would guess that it would do to the lower gearing, but I haven't talked with anyone who has driven one at this kind of elevation.
> 
> Ryan


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## Snowtrac Nome

i think it was lyndon who played with a snow master by changing the gearing and it didn't really work out even with a hopped up 1600 those herring bone grousers will suck up the horsepower just like a paddle track on a snowmachine i'm thinking that with a higher gear set lyndon said 100 hp would be about the min.for that machine keep in mind those things arn't intended to drive on roads and even 10 mph can be a rolercoaster rie when going overland  if trail witth is a concern i wouln't hesitate to buy that one should serve you fine also teladawg now has his st-4 up for sale and his has the old 2 band track that is almost impossoble to walk out of.i might also add his is a cherry unit and ready to run.


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## mtnguyco1981

Unfortunately, it appears his rig has already sold.  I called him last night and someone else had already dropped a check in the mail for a downpayment.  

The situation that I'm working with is that I have a forest service access road at the top of my neighborhood, which opens up into some nice high alpine with fairly deep snow.  I'd be able to drive the Snow Master out of my driveway and stay on snow covered roads the entire time so running over bare ground is not a concern.  

Lyndon, care to chime in on the subject?


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## mtnguyco1981

Might also be worth noting that there should only be half the herringbone grousers on this machine as a typical Snow Master, which may help out in terms of not eating up as much horsepower.

Edit:  Just realized this probably isn't the case.  I found this pic of a Snow Master on Wikipedia, which makes it seem as though only the inner/outer belting may have been removed and what remains is the middle two?  Outer belts seem like they were only joined at every 3rd or 4th grouser.


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## Snowtrac Nome

the gearing is in the trans axle if i'm not mistaken so i don't know how feasable it will be to change it making your engine to where it will stand up to higher rpm's will give you more top end but will also shorten engine life 1 run mine around 5 k at cruse and ep to 5500 for short bursts any where over 4500 the heater works good but i under stand the snow trac motors had a governer in the distributor that started to shut down the ignition around 4k i've talked withseveral people who have told me that 5k on a factory engine is ok.


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## JSX

Actually, the gearing is changed at the chain drive after the transaxle. The ST4B has a larger front gear than the ST4.


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## JSX

mtnguyco1981 said:


> Might also be worth noting that there should only be half the herringbone grousers on this machine as a typical Snow Master, which may help out in terms of not eating up as much horsepower.
> 
> Edit:  Just realized this probably isn't the case.  I found this pic of a Snow Master on Wikipedia, which makes it seem as though only the inner/outer belting may have been removed and what remains is the middle two?  Outer belts seem like they were only joined at every 3rd or 4th grouser.



Right, the inner/outer belts are gone and only every 3rd grouser is full width, usually they end up getting cut instead of trying to find more short ones to replace them.


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## mtnguyco1981

JSX said:


> Actually, the gearing is changed at the chain drive after the transaxle. The ST4B has a larger front gear than the ST4.



JSX, any opinion on changing the gearing?


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## JSX

mtnguyco1981 said:


> JSX, any opinion on changing the gearing?



I haven't changed gearing in a ST4B yet, but I think it would work good with the narrow tracks.


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## Snowtrac Nome

JSX said:


> Actually, the gearing is changed at the chain drive after the transaxle. The ST4B has a larger front gear than the ST4.


 well it may be all snow tracs than have the rare extra low gear set i was talking to a custom trans guy when looking at getting a new trans for what is now my parts machine and he had told me that some of the snow tracs had a lower than normal gear set in them which made that transmission highly coveted by dune buggy builders. perhaps its all the st transmissions i'm not an expert on the transmissions as i have never had to go inside one


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## Lyndon

The Big Sprockets in the engine compartment came in 36, 38, and 42 tooth combinations. The Small chain sprockets on the Variator came in 11, 12, and 15 tooth combinations. Standard oin a Snow Trac is 12's and 38's. Standard on a Trac Master or Snow Master is 11's & 42's. The difference is roughly 3:1 versus 4:1. This also directly correlates to why Snow Trac's usually have 3 times the miles as hours, and the "Masters" have closer to a 2  times per hour ratio. The machine I tried with the high ratio was lacking in torque at the high end. Just too much track. I had to drop back to lower ratios. It was a Trac Master with at 1776 CC, roughly 90 HP engine. In all one can get 9 possible combinations out of the 3 & 3 gear offering. It is also possible to get a variety of different gearing out of the Transaxels. ST4's were normally shipped with VW Bus Transaxels which have lower gearing than Bug Transaxels. Top speed according to the factory literature in a "Master" is 13.5 MPH, 22 in a Snow Trac. I was able to get over 25 on my 1963 Snow Trac that had the original 36/40 HP 1192 CC engine, on an ice covered road, and a good 30+ MPH out of a Snow Trac with a 1600, 53 HP Motor.


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## mtnguyco1981

Lyndon,

Any thoughts on how the higher ratio would affect the Snow Master with the narrower tracks?  Even though they are narrower than stock, do you think this would still be too much track to run a higher ratio when considering the herringbone grousers?   

My house sits at 10,200 feet and I'd be driving to elevations in the neighborhood of 13K.  This high up it seems somewhat doubtful that I'd be able to get the Snow Master up to 13+ miles an hour in its "stock" configuration with the narrower tracks.  I'm not necessarily looking for it to do ST4 speeds, but if I could get it into the neighborhood of 16-18 mph that would be nice.  

Ben


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## Snowtrac Nome

mtnguyco1981 said:


> Lyndon,
> 
> Any thoughts on how the higher ratio would affect the Snow Master with the narrower tracks? Even though they are narrower than stock, do you think this would still be too much track to run a higher ratio when considering the herringbone grousers?
> 
> My house sits at 10,200 feet and I'd be driving to elevations in the neighborhood of 13K. This high up it seems somewhat doubtful that I'd be able to get the Snow Master up to 13+ miles an hour in its "stock" configuration with the narrower tracks. I'm not necessarily looking for it to do ST4 speeds, but if I could get it into the neighborhood of 16-18 mph that would be nice.
> 
> Ben


your top speed on the st-4 will be limited to max engine rpm the snow master with cut tracks should be able to hit its top speed going up hill on a groomed trail at your altitude i think you will find the lower gear set to be your friend if you want to run in high gear


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## leadvillerpm

Just took my st4 #58025 on a 12 mile round trip up to 12,000 ft above sea level.  No issues, but I am already thinking about a 1776cc with fuel injection.  We spent a lot of the time in 2nd gear at about 8 mph climbing on packed trails.  I would like to spend a little more time in 3rd even when climbing.  Definitely feel the lack of hp at this kind of altitude mainly when going up hill or in untracked snow.

Ryan


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## Snowtrac Nome

leadvillerpm said:


> Just took my st4 #58025 on a 12 mile round trip up to 12,000 ft above sea level. No issues, but I am already thinking about a 1776cc with fuel injection. We spent a lot of the time in 2nd gear at about 8 mph climbing on packed trails. I would like to spend a little more time in 3rd even when climbing. Definitely feel the lack of hp at this kind of altitude mainly when going up hill or in untracked snow.
> 
> Ryan


 good info mine has plenty of power at sea level i find the only limitation now is that with my pressure plate being weak i have to down shift to 3rd on hills because the engine will overcome the clutch and slip can't wait in another 2 weeks all my stuff should be here to redo the lower end and get rid of the excessive end play and have a new 200mm clutch


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## Snowcat Operations

mtnguyco1981 said:


> Might also be worth noting that there should only be half the herringbone grousers on this machine as a typical Snow Master, which may help out in terms of not eating up as much horsepower.
> 
> Edit:  Just realized this probably isn't the case.  I found this pic of a Snow Master on Wikipedia, which makes it seem as though only the inner/outer belting may have been removed and what remains is the middle two?  Outer belts seem like they were only joined at every 3rd or 4th grouser.






LOL.  Thats my Snow Master.  She has the 11 tooth small gear set and I believe the larger 38 tooth big sprockets.  This picture was taken just outside of Elko in Lamoyle Canyon NV.  The wikepedia has the location wrong.  Anyway I was able to run her at about 13 to 14 mph just below red line.  I now have a set of the 15 tooth small gear sets.  When I put her back together I will have those installed along with a 120 hp motor.  Im at about 8,000 at my back door and I only go up from there.  Alos.  Those tracks a very heavy compared to a set of Snow Tracs!  You would easily have an additional 400 pounds diffrence in them alone!  If you dont believe me come on over and help me roll them around.  Bring your ST4 tracs and lets see.  lol.  Your back will thank you once your start pushing the much light Snow Trac tracks around!


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## Wheels

Lyndon,  So, both the Master and Trac have VW bus transaxels, and is the only difference  in their sprocket combination?   I was wondering, because I've talked to owners who have  narrowed their wide tracks, but in 4th gear they don't feel they would have the power (1600) to go any faster, even if they changed their sprocket gearing.  I'm just trying to figure out how you get more speed out of a Master.   (is the answer: sell the Master and buy the Trac?)    Thanks.  Wheels


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## Wheels

I flew out to Eugene to look at this one, just got back last night, took two days. My wife says I should look at some others before I buy any thing.  So if anyone has a Trac or a Master that I could look at, good shape or bad, I would sure appreciate the opportunity to see and learn more.
Also, I took a little video with my phone, didn't turn out real good-I think I've dropped it too many times - but you can get some idea.  If anyone else is interested, I'd be glad to share what I've got.   Wheels


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## Snowtrac Nome

Wheels said:


> I flew out to Eugene to look at this one, just got back last night, took two days. My wife says I should look at some others before I buy any thing. So if anyone has a Trac or a Master that I could look at, good shape or bad, I would sure appreciate the opportunity to see and learn more.
> Also, I took a little video with my phone, didn't turn out real good-I think I've dropped it too many times - but you can get some idea. If anyone else is interested, I'd be glad to share what I've got. Wheels


 Mine isn't for sale but if you want to compare it fly to nome for the end of the iditarod dog race and i will take you out in my snow trac.


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## Wheels

Thanks Don,that's a great offer, let me see how hard it is to get there.  Wheels


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