# Do you know the power of RAW honey?



## CityGirl

*The power of honey is pretty amazing.   For wound healing it is becoming a more accepted practice in hospitals.  Honey has antimicrobial properties.  When honey mixes with wound exudate, it forms a natural hydrogen peroxide.  The honey itself is a great barrier.  It is being used for wounds that are MRSA infected (MRSA is Methycillin Resistant Staphlococcus Aureus, a super bug that is resistant to numerous antibiotics and is becoming epidemic in hospitals and is leaching out into the general population).  Prior to introduction of antibiotic ointment, honey was a mainstay in wound treatment.  CB has a friend in GA who is diabetic and had a wound on his foot that wouldn't heal despite all treatments even through the wound clinic.  I talked to him about the use of honey.  He tried it.  He cleaned the wound with soap and water and applied raw honey morning and evening and within a month the wound had healed. *

*I don't know about ALL the claims in this article but I can speak to wounds and sore throat however, with sore throat, I recommend gargling with 1 tsp. raw honey and 1tsp natural vinegar (not the pasteurized stuff but the cloudy stuff like Braggs) It will knock out a sore throat!*

*The healing power of honey:*

* From burns to weak bones, raw honey can help*

NaturalNews) Raw honey – which has not been pasteurized or filtered, and ideally taken directly from the hive – is a treasure chest of nutritional value and medicinal remedies. It contains an abundance of vitamins and minerals and is a natural and powerful medicine, both internally and externally.​
The list of honey's beneficial functions is a long one. Honey increases calcium absorption; can increase hemoglobin count and treat or prevent anemia caused by nutritional factors; can help arthritic joints, when combined with apple cider vinegar; fights colds and respiratory infections of all kinds; can help to boost gastrointestinal ulcer healing; works as a natural and gentle laxative; aids constipation, allergies and obesity; provides an array of vitamins and minerals; and supplies instant energy without the insulin surge caused by white sugar. Many have found raw honey helpful for its positive effects against allergies and hay fever, and one or two teaspoons last thing at night can help with insomnia. As an antiseptic, honey is also a drawing agent for poisons from bites or stings or infected wounds, and has outperformed antibiotics in treatments for stomach ulcerations, gangrene, surgical wound infections, surgical incisions and the protection of skin grafts, corneas, blood vessels and bones during storage and shipment. 
"Raw honey is exceptionally effective internally against bacteria and parasites. Plus, raw honey contains natural antibiotics, which help kill microbes directly. Raw honey, when applied topically, speeds the healing of tissues damaged by infection and/or trauma. It contains vitamins, minerals and enzymes, as well as sugars, all of which aid in the healing of wounds." 
So writes Dr. Cass Igram, D.O. in The Survivor's Nutritional Pharmacy. In a fascinating modern development, scientists and doctors are beginning to rediscover the effectiveness of honey as a wound treatment. In recent years, honey has been used effectively in clinical settings for the treatment of fist-sized ulcers extending to the bone, as well as for first, second and third degree burns. Complete healing has been reported without the need for skin grafts and with no infection or muscle loss. It can be applied full strength to such conditions, covered with a sterile bandage, and changed daily. When the wounds are clean, honey acts as a healer. This also is the same procedure for infected wounds, ulcerations and impetigo. Garlic honey can also be applied directly to infected wounds, which will help clean up the area of infection. 
Dr. Peter Molan, professor of biochemistry at Waikato University, New Zealand, has been at the forefront of honey research for 20 years. He heads the university's Honey Research Unit, which is internationally recognized for its expertise in the antimicrobial properties of honey. Clinical observations and experimental studies have established that honey has effective antibacterial and anti-inflammatory properties. Astonishingly, it painlessly removes pus, scabs and dead tissue from wounds and stimulates new tissue growth. "Randomized trials have shown that honey is more effective in controlling infection in burn wounds than silver sulfadiazine, the antibacterial ointment most widely used on burns in hospitals," explains Dr. Molan. 
Dr. Molan believes that if honey were used from the start in cases of septicemia, there would be far less tissue damage resulting. "The remarkable ability of honey to reduce inflammation and mop up free radicals should halt the progress of the skin damage like it does in burns, as well as protecting from infection setting in", says Dr. Molan. "At present, people are turning to honey when nothing else works. But there are very good grounds for using honey as a therapeutic agent of first choice." 
Researchers believe that the therapeutic potential of honey is grossly underutilized. With increasing interest in the use of alternative therapies and as the development of antibiotic-resistant bacteria spreads, honey may finally receive its due recognition as a wound healer. 
Indeed, it works: Raw honey makes a sterile, painless and effective wound dressing. Apply it directly to open cuts, abrasions and burns, and cover it with a piece of gauze. The results will occur quicker than with conventional alternatives, such as salves and creams. 
Honey is also exceptionally effective for respiratory ailments. One Bulgarian study of almost 18,000 patients found that it improved chronic bronchitis, asthmatic bronchitis, chronic and allergic rhinitis and sinusitis. It's an effective treatment for colds, flu, respiratory infections and a generally depressed immune system. Whereas sugar shuts down the immune system, a good quality honey will stimulate it into action. 
Here are some more ways to utilize the healing power of honey: 
BURNS - Apply freely over burns. It cools, removes pain and aids fast healing without scarring. Apart from being a salve and an antibiotic, bacteria simply cannot survive in honey. 
BED WETTING - A teaspoon of honey before bed aids water retention and calms fears in children. 
INSOMNIA - A dessertspoon of honey in a mug of warm milk aids sleep and works wonders. 
HYPERACTIVITY - Replace all use of white sugar with honey. White sugar is highly stimulating with no food qualities. Honey provides the energy without the "spike." 
NASAL CONGESTION - Place a dessertspoon of honey in a basin of water and inhale fumes after covering your head with a towel over the basin. Very effective! 
FATIGUE - Dissolve a dessertspoon of honey in warm water or quarter honey balance of water in a jug and keep in the fridge. Honey is primarily fructose and glucose, so it's quickly absorbed by the digestive system. Honey is a unique natural stabilizer: Ancient Greek athletes took honey for stamina before competing and as a reviver after competition. 
FACIAL DEEP CLEANSER - Mix honey with an equal quantity of oatmeal, and apply as a face pack. Leave on for half an hour, then wash it off. Great as a deep cleanser for acne and other unwanted blemishes. 
POOR DIGESTION - Mix honey with an equal quantity of apple cider vinegar and dilute to taste with water. This is also wonderful for the joints – and promotes weight loss. 
HAIR CONDITIONER - Mix honey with an equal quantity of olive oil, cover head with a warm tower for half an hour then shampoo off. Feeds hair and scalp. Your hair will never look or feel better! 
SORE THROATS - Let a teaspoon of honey melt in the back of the mouth and trickle down the throat. Eases inflamed raw tissues. 
FOR STRESS - Honey in water is a stabilizer, calming highs and raising lows. Use approximately 25 percent honey to water. 
ANEMIA - Honey is the best blood enricher by raising corpuscle content. The darker the honey, the more minerals it contains. 
FOOD PRESERVATIVE – If you replace the sugar in cake and cookie recipes with honey, they'll stay fresher longer due to honey's natural antibacterial properties. Reduce liquids in the mixture by about one-fifth to allow for the moisture present in the in honey. 
BABY'S BOTTLE - Four teaspoons of honey to a baby's bottle of water is an excellent pacifier and multivitamin additive. If the baby's motions are too liquid, then reduce the honey by half a teaspoon; if too solid increase by half a teaspoon. (Caution: Don't give raw honey to babies under 1 year old; it's just too rich.) For teething, honey rubbed on a baby's gums is also a mild sedative and anesthetic. 
OSTEOPOROSIS – Research has shown that a teaspoon of honey per day aids calcium utilization and prevents osteoporosis – probably not a bad idea for anyone over 50. 
LONGEVITY - The most long-lived people in the world are all regular users of honey. An interesting fact, yet to be explained, is that beekeepers suffer less from cancer and arthritis than any other occupational group worldwide. 
MIGRAINE - Use a dessertspoon of honey dissolved in half a glass of warm water. Sip at the start of a migraine attack, and, if necessary, repeat after another 20 minutes. 
CONJUNCTIVITIS - Dissolve honey in an equal quantity of warm water. When cooled, apply as a lotion or eye bath. 
COUGH MIXTURE – Combine 6 ounces (170 grams) liquid honey, 2 ounces (55 grams) glycerin and the juice of two lemons. Mix well. Bottle and cork firmly, and use as required. 
Raw honey may become granulated, as some does after a week and another maybe only after several years. If the granulations bother you, simply place the honey into a pan of hot water (not boiling) and let it stand until becoming liquid again. _Kelly Joyce Neff has an interdisciplinary degree in Celtic Studies which includes work in cultural anthropology, history, linguistics, language, and literature. She is a traditional midwife and herbalist, a reiki master, and an active craftsperson. She lives in San Francisco. 
_


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## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Smells like a chain email in here.

Shouldn't a nurse in a NICU be at least concerned with the potential of botulism exposure in infants from raw unpasteurized honey?

I'm not against eating raw anything but you should be aware of potential health issues when eating mass produced unpasteurized foods.  I think unpasteurized/raw foods from your own farm where you know the cleanliness of the food source is probably fine.  But when you get it from a large farm operation you need to be extra careful.

There's a local dairy run by some religious people that produces unpasteurized milk and keeps getting kids sick from some bacteria that is common in the unpasteurized milk.


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## American Woman

This is something I want to pin to the fridge! Most of the this stuff I have heard of but chalked it up as a wive's tale.
The MRSA was a big surprise...Redneck's Momma has been in the hospital with MRSA, and survived. The doctor (once he figured out what it was) said there was only one antibiotic that works on it, she had a reaction to it. She's never in her life had a reaction to anything. So they backed off for 24 hours and reintroduced it and that time it worked
What do you think about the Aloe plants? We have them growing in the yard just for burns, scrapes and cuts. The kids know where they are and go straight to them


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## CityGirl

PBinWA said:


> Smells like a chain email in here.
> 
> Shouldn't a nurse in a NICU be at least concerned with the potential of botulism exposure in infants from raw unpasteurized honey?
> 
> I'm not against eating raw anything but you should be aware of potential health issues when eating mass produced unpasteurized foods. I think unpasteurized/raw foods from your own farm where you know the cleanliness of the food source is probably fine. But when you get it from a large farm operation you need to be extra careful.
> 
> There's a local dairy run by some religious people that produces unpasteurized milk and keeps getting kids sick from some bacteria that is common in the unpasteurized milk.


 

PBinWA, Where in my post do I endorse raw honey ingestion in infants?
I see a reference in the article:

BABY'S BOTTLE - Four teaspoons of honey to a baby's bottle of water is an excellent pacifier and multivitamin additive. If the baby's motions are too liquid, then reduce the honey by half a teaspoon; if too solid increase by half a teaspoon. (Caution: Don't give raw honey to babies under 1 year old; it's just too rich.) For teething, honey rubbed on a baby's gums is also a mild sedative and anesthetic. 

I did state "* I **don't know about ALL the claims in this article but I can speak to wound**s and sore throat, however." *
The author does include a caution. I can't speak to why she fails to list Botulism as a potential danger.


According to the CDC, infants with botulism 'appear lethargic, feed poorly, are constipated, and have a weak cry and poor muscle tone,' which may 'progress to cause paralysis of the arms, legs, trunk and respiratory muscles.' 
Although parents often know not to give their infants under twelve months of age plain honey, they often overlook other foods that contain honey in them, such as Honey Graham Crackers, Honey Nut Cheerios, Honey Wheat Bread, etc. Although the honey in these foods may be processed, it may not be pasteurized, and so may still contain botulism spores in them and should be avoided. If you feel strongly about giving these foods to your infant, call the manufacturer to make sure that they are safe. http://pediatrics.about.com/od/weeklyquestion/a/04_infant_honey.htm

As a nurse in the PICU, I am well aware of recommendations re: honey with children. I thank you for spotlighting this particular aspect of the article as it is extremely important. I will add that I don't think you needed to be antagonistic in remarking on my post.


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## American Woman

I have 4 kids.....The all had honey bottles  I also fliped'm so they didn't get a cone head


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## CityGirl

Aloe is great.  
here is a link to medical publications regarding honey and MRSA
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17927079
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/111672.php
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/apl/jdt/2001/00000012/00000001/art00009
I can add more but I think this substantiates.


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## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

CityGirl said:


> PBinWA, Where in my post do I endorse raw honey ingestion in infants?
> I see a reference in the article:
> 
> BABY'S BOTTLE - Four teaspoons of honey to a baby's bottle of water is an excellent pacifier and multivitamin additive. If the baby's motions are too liquid, then reduce the honey by half a teaspoon; if too solid increase by half a teaspoon. (Caution: Don't give raw honey to babies under 1 year old; it's just too rich.) For teething, honey rubbed on a baby's gums is also a mild sedative and anesthetic.
> 
> I did state "* I **don't know about ALL the claims in this article but I can speak to wound**s and sore throat, however." *
> The author does include a caution. I can't speak to why she fails to list Botulism as a potential danger.
> 
> 
> According to the CDC, infants with botulism 'appear lethargic, feed poorly, are constipated, and have a weak cry and poor muscle tone,' which may 'progress to cause paralysis of the arms, legs, trunk and respiratory muscles.'
> Although parents often know not to give their infants under twelve months of age plain honey, they often overlook other foods that contain honey in them, such as Honey Graham Crackers, Honey Nut Cheerios, Honey Wheat Bread, etc. Although the honey in these foods may be processed, it may not be pasteurized, and so may still contain botulism spores in them and should be avoided. If you feel strongly about giving these foods to your infant, call the manufacturer to make sure that they are safe. http://pediatrics.about.com/od/weeklyquestion/a/04_infant_honey.htm
> 
> As a nurse in the PICU, I am well aware of recommendations re: honey with children. I thank you for spotlighting this particular aspect of the article as it is extremely important. I will add that I don't think you needed to be antagonistic in remarking on my post.


 
I'm sorry but if you look at the author's credentials:



> _Kelly Joyce Neff has an interdisciplinary degree in Celtic Studies which includes work in cultural anthropology, history, linguistics, language, and literature. She is a traditional midwife and herbalist, a reiki master, and an active craftsperson. She lives in San Francisco.
> _




That just reeks of quackery to me.  I don't believe much in Naturopathy, Herbalism, Chiropractics or any of that hippy "feel good" B.S.  The rest of the article makes honey seem like it is going to cure cancer and stop world hunger.

I believe in peer reviewed, double blind studied, repeatable science.

I'm sorry you didn't like my reply but I honestly think the real medical profession does themselves a great deal of discredit when they give any sort of acknowledgement to these "alternative" medical practices.  

Honey is good stuff.  Stuff from nature is good stuff.  Just be careful eating stuff from nature and make sure you understand the health implication and risks when eating raw food.


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## CityGirl

I don't believe much in Naturopathy, Herbalism, Chiropractics or any of that hippy "feel good" B.S. 

PB,
I agree, there is a lot of quackery in the areas listed above.  Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.  Even with mainstream medicine, there is quackery and there is truth.  I think you have to be extremely careful with herbal remedies. All chiropractors are not quacks.  All MDs are not competent to practice medicine. There are some downright dangerous doctors out there and they are so friggin' protected.  I've seen them in action and reported them to the hospitals Physician Credentialors.  It is unbelievable.


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## American Woman

PBinWA said:


> I'm sorry but if you look at the author's credentials:
> 
> [/i]
> 
> That just reeks of quackery to me.  I don't believe much in Naturopathy, Herbalism, Chiropractics or any of that hippy "feel good" B.S.  The rest of the article makes honey seem like it is going to cure cancer and stop world hunger.
> 
> I believe in peer reviewed, double blind studied, repeatable science.
> 
> I'm sorry you didn't like my reply but I honestly think the real medical profession does themselves a great deal of discredit when they give any sort of acknowledgment to these "alternative" medical practices.
> 
> Honey is good stuff.  Stuff from nature is good stuff.  Just be careful eating stuff from nature and make sure you understand the health implication and risks when eating raw food.


Maybe it's your age group PB, because your age group are the most resistant to change. If I don't have to take another pill I will try anything. It's not just a "hippi" point of view. Natural medicine has been around WAY before your clinical MD.s...even their medicine to start somewhere.


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## pirate_girl

I've used honey for sore throat, both for myself and the kids when they were younger.
It's amazing how well it works.

As for a burn, no way would I put it on a fresh burn!
Perhaps during the healing process it would be good for tissue repair.

Diluted baby shampoo cures conjuctivitis.
This I know to be tried and true.


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## American Woman

CityGirl said:


> I don't believe much in Naturopathy, Herbalism, Chiropractics or any of that hippy "feel good" B.S.
> 
> PB,
> I agree, there is a lot of quackery in the areas listed above.  Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.  Even with mainstream medicine, there is quackery and there is truth.  I think you have to be extremely careful with herbal remedies. All chiropractors are not quacks.  All MDs are not competent to practice medicine. There are some downright dangerous doctors out there and they are so friggin' protected.  I've seen them in action and reported them to the hospitals Physician Credentialors.  It is unbelievable.


I know MD's right now I would not let take care of my pets....I trust my chiropractor that I have seen for more than 15 years. I will go to him before I go to my MD, because most of the time he fixes it with out meds, or surgery.


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## urednecku

PBinWA said:


> .......................
> 
> That just reeks of quackery to me.  I don't believe much in Naturopathy, Herbalism, Chiropractics or any of that hippy "feel good" B.S. ........



I don't know much about Naturopathy & Herbalism, I DO know that a *good *chiropractor will do wonders. No, they can not treat everything. And no, not all who hang that shingle are even good. I have been to about 5 or 6, and keep coming back to the one GOOD chiropractor I know. I had a Neurologist wanting me to go to see a surgeon. "NO, you are not going to cut on my neck."  
A few trips to a GOOD chiropractor, and six weeks later, I was back to 95%. I have never heard of anyone having any kind of back surgery that did not have problems later. That was 15 years ago, I still have no scars on my neck. I still see this DOCTOR occasionally, and feel much better when I leave than when I go in.


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## American Woman

pirate_girl said:


> I've used honey for sore throat, both for myself and the kids when they were younger.
> It's amazing how well it works.
> 
> As for a burn, no way would I put it on a fresh burn!
> Perhaps during the healing process it would be good for tissue repair.
> 
> Diluted baby shampoo cures conjuctivitis.
> This I know to be tried and true.


  CG sent a a couple of links to me about doctors using the honey as wound care, and theyl said the honey was used after antibiotic treatments failed. So I'm assuming they weren't new wounds. But it does make me wonder now if that can be done. Kind of like a salve under a band aid?
CG, did you notice the wound care steam's name in the first link was "Woundpecker Wound Care Team" (I know it's childish...but funny )


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## CityGirl

American Woman said:


> Natural medicine has been around WAY before your clinical MD.s...even their medicine to start somewhere.


*Quinine*-the alkaloid for quinine occurs naturally in the bark of _Cinchona_ tree-treatment for Malaria and nocturnal leg cramps
Digoxin (Lanoxin)  a potent cardiac glycoside, a product of Foxglove
*vinblatine and vincristine*-chemotherapeutic agents used to treat leukemia both obtained from the Madagascan periwinkle (_Catharanthus roseus_ syn. _Vinca roseus_) 
*Aspirin*-Willow
*Atropine and Scopalamine*-Corkwood
*Colchicine (*used to treat gout)-_*Colchicum autumnale*,_ commonly known as autumn crocus, meadow saffron or naked lady
*Opium,Codeine,Morphine,Noscapine, Papaverine-*The opium poppy, *Papaver somniferum*
*Theophylline-*Theobroma cacao-chocolate


Thomas Jefferson wrote that "The greatest service which can be rendered any country is to add a useful plant to it's culture." 
 But poo-poo if you want.  You benefit, anyway.


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## American Woman

CityGirl said:


> *Quinine*-the alkaloid for quinine occurs naturally in the bark of _Cinchona_ tree-treatment for Malaria and nocturnal leg cramps
> Digoxin (Lanoxin)  a potent cardiac glycoside, a product of Foxglove
> *vinblatine and vincristine*-chemotherapeutic agents used to treat leukemia both obtained from the Madagascan periwinkle (_Catharanthus roseus_ syn. _Vinca roseus_)
> *Aspirin*-Willow
> *Atropine and Scopalamine*-Corkwood
> *Colchicine (*used to treat gout)-_*Colchicum autumnale*,_ commonly known as autumn crocus, meadow saffron or naked lady
> *Opium,Codeine,Morphine,Noscapine, Papaverine-*The opium poppy, *Papaver somniferum*
> *Theophylline-*Theobroma cacao-chocolate
> Thomas Jefferson wrote that "The greatest service which can be rendered any country is to add a useful plant to it's culture."
> But poo-poo if you want.  You benefit, anyway.


There was LOT of big words in there, but "what she said" ^^^^


			
				PBinWA said:
			
		

> Naturopathy, Herbalism, Chiropractics or any of that hippy "feel good" B.S.


The native American Indians were using this natural healing BS long before the pastie white man came to say it was BS.


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## CityGirl

American Woman said:


> CG, did you notice the wound care steam's name in the first link was "Woundpecker Wound Care Team" (I know it's childish...but funny )


Yep.  Saw that.  Smiled to myself.  

I have used raw honey on new wounds and believe it contributed to rapid wound healing.  I had a crack on my heal that went pretty deep and was a bit painful.  I put honey on it and covered it with one of those dressings like bandaid Advance---actually it was called duoderm.  Anyway, it was remarkable how it looked the next day.  So good I didn't redress it.


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## American Woman

We have some friends that have bees and make honey. Redneck likes honey on his peanut butter sandwich. He eats that every morning...
(He's an easy man to keep) I think we will be getting some extra


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## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

CityGirl said:


> *Quinine*-the alkaloid for quinine occurs naturally in the bark of _Cinchona_ tree-treatment for Malaria and nocturnal leg cramps
> Digoxin (Lanoxin) a potent cardiac glycoside, a product of Foxglove
> *vinblatine and vincristine*-chemotherapeutic agents used to treat leukemia both obtained from the Madagascan periwinkle (_Catharanthus roseus_ syn. _Vinca roseus_)
> *Aspirin*-Willow
> *Atropine and Scopalamine*-Corkwood
> *Colchicine (*used to treat gout)-_*Colchicum autumnale*,_ commonly known as autumn crocus, meadow saffron or naked lady
> *Opium,Codeine,Morphine,Noscapine, Papaverine-*The opium poppy, *Papaver somniferum*
> *Theophylline-*Theobroma cacao-chocolate
> 
> 
> Thomas Jefferson wrote that "The greatest service which can be rendered any country is to add a useful plant to it's culture."
> But poo-poo if you want. You benefit, anyway.


 
I suspect all of the above items have been scientifically proven in their efficacy.

I never refuted the wonderful things that nature provided us.  However, if you ate a bunch of willow bark it is probably going to make you feel worse than if you took some properly prepared, extracted, and measured aspirin.

As far as Chiropractics goes, it is not based on any valid science.  If you went to a licensed and trained (i.e. "real") Massage Therapist you would probably get the same benefits as the Chiropractor with out the bad science and incorrect interpretation of what they are doing.

But to each there own.  I am not a doctor and don't really care what you do with your money.  The placebo effect has been proven to be a strong healer in the minds of many.

PB


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## urednecku

PBinWA said:


> I suspect all of the above items have been scientifically proven in their efficacy.
> 
> I never refuted the wonderful things that nature provided us.  However, if you ate a bunch of willow bark it is probably going to make you feel worse than if you took some properly prepared, extracted, and measured aspirin.
> 
> As far as Chiropractics goes, it is not based on any valid science.  If you went to a licensed and trained (i.e. "real") Massage Therapist you would probably get the same benefits as the Chiropractor with out the bad science and incorrect interpretation of what they are doing.
> 
> But to each there own.  I am not a doctor and don't really care what you do with your money.  The placebo effect has been proven to be a strong healer in the minds of many.
> 
> PB



I think you are wrong there. A Chiropractor is also consierded a Doctor, and has years of study before they are licenseced. 
From your statements, I wonder if you have ever been to a Chriproctor, probably one that does what I call the 'generic' treatment- no matter what the problem, they do the same. Like nearly all the ones I went to before I found a GOOD one.  
Mine checks to see what needs to be adjusted, where, and how --before he makes any adjustments. 

The whole body is run by "electrical currents" running thru the spinal cord. If the spine is not inline, it's like a kink in a water hose...you do not get the full amount of current. You also feel the pinch. It has been proven on my-self, as it has been to others. Before I went to my first Chiropractor, I went to a MD  >  physical therapy  >  Nuroligist, and all that bunch did was having me take 800 mg ibuprofen 4 times a day, and that did very little to ease the pain.  2 weeks after starting Chryo. treetment, I had a lot less pain. Another 4 weeks, I was about 98%, and still have never had a cut on my neck.
 You can take all the pills you want, and they will not 'fix' the problem. When they wear off, ya will hurt again. Yes, you can get a Doctor to cut you open and play around and hopefully get things back right, risking infection, being parilized, etc.  Or you can find an experienced Doctor to get things lined up right again, with OUT cutting on ya. I prefer NOT to be cut on, but thats just me.


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## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

urednecku said:


> I think you are wrong there. A Chiropractor is also consierded a Doctor, and has years of study before they are licenseced.
> From your statements, I wonder if you have ever been to a Chriproctor, probably one that does what I call the 'generic' treatment- no matter what the problem, they do the same. Like nearly all the ones I went to before I found a GOOD one.
> Mine checks to see what needs to be adjusted, where, and how --before he makes any adjustments.
> 
> The whole body is run by "electrical currents" running thru the spinal cord. If the spine is not inline, it's like a kink in a water hose...you do not get the full amount of current. You also feel the pinch. It has been proven on my-self, as it has been to others. Before I went to my first Chiropractor, I went to a MD > physical therapy > Nuroligist, and all that bunch did was having me take 800 mg ibuprofen 4 times a day, and that did very little to ease the pain. 2 weeks after starting Chryo. treetment, I had a lot less pain. Another 4 weeks, I was about 98%, and still have never had a cut on my neck.
> You can take all the pills you want, and they will not 'fix' the problem. When they wear off, ya will hurt again. Yes, you can get a Doctor to cut you open and play around and hopefully get things back right, risking infection, being parilized, etc. Or you can find an experienced Doctor to get things lined up right again, with OUT cutting on ya. I prefer NOT to be cut on, but thats just me.


 
Chiropractors call themselves "Doctors" but this is something they made up.  It is not an official designation and is certainly not recognized in higher education.

I have a Bachelors Degree in Human Kinetics and probably have as much if not more anatomy and physiology training than many Chiropractors.

The theory of Chiropractics is just wrong.  It doesn't make sense.  They have no scientific, double blind, independent third party reviewed studies to verify their claims.

You can not "manipulate" your spine externally.  You can get a nice massage and perhaps even release pockets of nitrogen gas (that's the cracking sound) and probably walk out of the office feeling better.  That's why massage therapy is really what you should be looking at.  Massage therapy will help your muscles to relax and reduce pain and stress.  Massage HAS been scientifically proven to reduce musculo-skeletal pain.  It is a valid treatment.

My Mom had a Chiropractor tell her that one of her vertebrae was completely turned around.  I couldn't for the life of me get her to believe me that if that was really the case then she would be a parapalegic.

As I stated before, you are welcome to believe what you want to believe.  However, I will never give these "alternative" medical approaches an ounce of credit unless they come up with some serious scientifically validated evidence.


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## pirate_girl

PBinWA said:


> I have a Bachelors Degree in Human Kinetics.
> *IMPRESSIVE!!*
> The theory of Chiropractics is just wrong.  It doesn't make sense.  They have no scientific, double blind, independent third party reviewed studies to verify their claims.
> *This is true.*
> 
> You can not "manipulate" your spine externally.  You can get a nice massage and perhaps even release pockets of nitrogen gas (that's the cracking sound) and probably walk out of the office feeling better.  That's why massage therapy is really what you should be looking at.  Massage therapy will help your muscles to relax and reduce pain and stress.  Massage HAS been scientifically proven to reduce musculo-skeletal pain.  It is a valid treatment.
> *Yep.*
> 
> My Mom had a Chiropractor tell her that one of her vertebrae was completely turned around.  I couldn't for the life of me get her to believe me that if that was really the case then she would be a parapalegic.
> *A chiropractor told my oldest son that he'd been nearly born with Spina Bifida, hence his long strided walk (inherited) and slight bow legs(also inherited).
> He swore up and down that Jeff lucked out as there were lesions at the base of his spine that caused lower back pain.
> This was when sonny boy was around age 19 and going through his physicals for police academy.
> There wasn't ANYTHING there. The chiro's x-ray claims were rubbish
> Man, I had fun with that so- called professional.*
> 
> As I stated before, you are welcome to believe what you want to believe.  However, I will never give these "alternative" medical approaches an ounce of credit unless they come up with some serious scientifically validated evidence.


*I've gone to a chiropractor a few times.
I did feel better after the "adjustments"... however, they alllllllways think of a reason to keep you coming back, again and again.
Bahh!!
*


----------



## American Woman

A scientifically documented licensed PA, MD, Proctologists, oncologist, every Nurse that walked in his room wasn't in a hurry to help with his pain. They all told him he was constipated. That's why his stomach was swollen as if he were 9 months pregnant. They tested for 2 weeks to tell him that.....3 months later Daddy is dead from Cancer.
I was PISSED to put it mildly....but thank God I don't clump all these professionals together, and call them all quacks.


----------



## urednecku

PBinWA said:


> Chiropractors call themselves "Doctors" but this is something they made up.  It is not an official designation and is certainly not recognized in higher education.
> 
> I have a Bachelors Degree in Human Kinetics and probably have as much if not more anatomy and physiology training than many Chiropractors.
> 
> The theory of Chiropractics is just wrong.  It doesn't make sense.  They have no scientific, double blind, independent third party reviewed studies to verify their claims.
> 
> You can not "manipulate" your spine externally.  You can get a nice massage and perhaps even release pockets of nitrogen gas (that's the cracking sound) and probably walk out of the office feeling better.  That's why massage therapy is really what you should be looking at.  Massage therapy will help your muscles to relax and reduce pain and stress.  Massage HAS been scientifically proven to reduce musculo-skeletal pain.  It is a valid treatment.
> 
> My Mom had a Chiropractor tell her that one of her vertebrae was completely turned around.  I couldn't for the life of me get her to believe me that if that was really the case then she would be a parapalegic.
> 
> As I stated before, you are welcome to believe what you want to believe.  However, I will never give these "alternative" medical approaches an ounce of credit unless they come up with some serious scientifically validated evidence.



Believe what you will.
I know what did *NOT* work with me...a DOCTOR, PHYSICAL THERAPY,  NEUROLOGIST.  (by the way, all supposedly  "licensed and trained (i.e. "real") "
I DO know what _*DID*_ work for me, and still does, ....a CHIROPRACTOR. And yes, I have been to a "licensed and trained (i.e. "real") Massage Therapist"--I'll admit the massage felt good, but did nothing for the joints that were in pain. 

It sounds like one that was a quack made up your mind for you. As I said before, I have gone to some that I would not let treat my dog. I have also been to some "specialist doctors" that I will never go back to, but do not hold the whole medical field responsible for the actions of the idiots.



American Woman said:


> A scientifically documented licensed PA, MD, Proctologists, oncologist, every Nurse that walked in his room wasn't in a hurry to help with his pain. They all told him he was constipated. That's why his stomach was swollen as if he were 9 months pregnant. They tested for 2 weeks to tell him that.....3 months later Daddy is dead from Cancer.
> I was PISSED to put it mildly....but thank God I don't clump all these professionals together, and call them all quacks.



And my own Daddy was killed by "licensed and trained (i.e. "real")" DOCTORS/ CARDIOLOGISTS in one of the largest/best hospitals in Florida...........After a quad by-pass, my brother and my-self tried to tell them his stomach was swollen and getting larger. We were assured it was 'normal--just gasses in the abdominal cavity.'  They were partly right---but the 'gasses' were caused by gangrene in his small intestine. This was proven about 12 hours before he stopped breathing, from the swelling pressing on his diaphragm. 
So much for your licensed and trained (i.e. "real") people.


I will stop now, & let you go ahead with all your wisdom , Mr. Human Kinetics, before I tell you what I really think, and get somebody up-set with what I say.


----------



## Cityboy

Hey Redneck, there are just some folks who _think _they know everything about anything based upon their limited experience. These type people have one bad experience and all people related to that experience become quacks, ie: a bad experience with a chiropractor, etc. I know people who swear by chiropractic, and others who swear it is snake oil. So who is right? Doesn't really matter does it? If a chiropractor helped, then that is all that matters. If it did not, well, that does not mean _all_ chiropractor's are quacks and that the entire field is a farce. Often people form their opinions based upon limited experience and a college class or two and apply it globally, thinking they actually know what they are talking about on an _expert_ scope, when in reality, they _know nothing_ other than what they experienced _once_, or heard a college professor say, or read in a textbook. You'll never convince these people because they have closed their minds to all possibilities outside their chain of "logic".

It's the same thing with natural healing, nutrition, and this honey issue that started this thread. Some people acquired a little knowledge from one source and discount all other possibilities, thinking they are somehow smarter than everyone else. These type people then seek to discredit someone elses opinion with insults because they took a college class or two. And, yes, I'm talking about PB's smart ass opinion in this instance. So all I have to say to people who believe like PB does is, eat what you want, enjoy your hydrogegated oils, don't take any nutritional supplements, and be glad you live in the United States so you can take your fat ass to the heart surgeon for an immediate by-pass with no wait. It's your life, eat what you want, live like you want, but don't present yourself as a nutritional or medical expert when clearly you are not.


----------



## American Woman

PBinWA said:


> However, if you ate a bunch of willow bark it is probably going to make you feel worse than if you took some properly prepared, extracted, and measured aspirin.
> PB


_I did'nt see where the article told the reader to take a "bunch of honey"_
_It was a teaspoon here and a teaspoon there for ailments._

 Wow has this thread been grossly taken off topic or what? I guess it went under the mod radar because sex and flirting wasn't going on 
 The subject was about the benefits of honey. Not medical quacks.


----------



## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

urednecku said:


> Believe what you will.
> I know what did *NOT* work with me...a DOCTOR, PHYSICAL THERAPY, NEUROLOGIST. (by the way, all supposedly "licensed and trained (i.e. "real") "
> I DO know what _*DID*_ work for me, and still does, ....a CHIROPRACTOR. And yes, I have been to a "licensed and trained (i.e. "real") Massage Therapist"--I'll admit the massage felt good, but did nothing for the joints that were in pain.
> 
> It sounds like one that was a quack made up your mind for you. As I said before, I have gone to some that I would not let treat my dog. I have also been to some "specialist doctors" that I will never go back to, but do not hold the whole medical field responsible for the actions of the idiots.
> 
> 
> 
> And my own Daddy was killed by "licensed and trained (i.e. "real")" DOCTORS/ CARDIOLOGISTS in one of the largest/best hospitals in Florida...........After a quad by-pass, my brother and my-self tried to tell them his stomach was swollen and getting larger. We were assured it was 'normal--just gasses in the abdominal cavity.' They were partly right---but the 'gasses' were caused by gangrene in his small intestine. This was proven about 12 hours before he stopped breathing, from the swelling pressing on his diaphragm.
> So much for your licensed and trained (i.e. "real") people.
> 
> 
> I will stop now, & let you go ahead with all your wisdom , Mr. Human Kinetics, before I tell you what I really think, and get somebody up-set with what I say.


 
The doctors didn't kill anybody. Your father obviously was sick to begin with. The doctors do the best they can to save people but not everyone can be saved. Trying to blame a doctor for complications due to a quadruple bypass is just wrong. Doctors are people too and can not catch every little thing.

Some times people die. You can't blame Doctors for that. If there was any sort of gross negligence or malpractice then you should have taken it to court. A good lawyer would have made you some money from the sad situation and could have also worked to get the Doctor's credentials revoked.

I think you have a lot of misdirected anger towards the medical profession.


----------



## urednecku

American Woman is right....way too far off subject. Sorry CityGirl for the off-topic rants. I've been out of honey for a couple days, & it's starting to effect my moods I  guess.


----------



## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Cityboy said:


> And, yes, I'm talking about PB's smart ass opinion in this instance. So all I have to say to people who believe like PB does is, eat what you want, enjoy your hydrogegated oils, don't take any nutritional supplements, and be glad you live in the United States so you can take your fat ass to the heart surgeon for an immediate by-pass with no wait. It's your life, eat what you want, live like you want, but don't present yourself as a nutritional or medical expert when clearly you are not.


 
I think you are the one that is coming up with the arrogant opinions (perhaps I pissed off your wife or something). 

If you read back over my replies, I have stated my points and never asserted that you shouldn't do what you want to do and have never presented myself as a nutritional expert.  The only reason I mentioned my university degree was to emphasize that I had as much or more anatomy and physiology training as a Chiropractor.  In fact, I just checked the curriculum for a Chiropractic school and it looks like it is only a 3 year program.  I had to got to school for 4.5 years to get my Bachelors degree.

I certainly, haven't advocated an unhealthy lifestyle. I don't know any doctors (and I know a lot) that advocate unhealthy lifestyles. In fact, hanging out with doctors is down right depressing because they constantly tell you what you shouldn't be doing.

All I have done is attempted to point out some facts and tried to advocate common sense.


----------



## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

American Woman said:


> _I did'nt see where the article told the reader to take a "bunch of honey"_
> _It was a teaspoon here and a teaspoon there for ailments._
> 
> Wow has this thread been grossly taken off topic or what? I guess it went under the mod radar because sex and flirting wasn't going on
> The subject was about the benefits of honey. Not medical quacks.


 
That reply was made to CG's reply regarding the natural origins of many mainstream pharmaceuticals.  It was not made in reply to the original article.


----------



## Cityboy

PBinWA said:


> I think you are the one that is coming up with the arrogant opinions (perhaps I pissed off your wife or something).


 
Wrong answer buckwheat. Arrogance is your word in this case, not mine, but perhaps you are feeling guilty of arrogance, eh? Remember this post:



PBinWA said:


> *Smells like a chain email in here.*
> 
> *Shouldn't a nurse in a NICU be at least concerned* with the potential of botulism exposure in infants from raw unpasteurized honey?


 
That, my friend, is arrogance shrouded in ignorance. If you had taken a moment to actually read the post in context, perhaps you would not have made such a jack ass, uncalled for comment that had nothing to do with the subject at hand. 

And no, you didn't piss CG off, but she did ask why you seemed to appear as such a Richard Cranium in your replys to her and many others you disagree with. 




PBinWA said:


> I certainly, haven't advocated an unhealthy lifestyle. I don't know any doctors (and I know a lot) that advocate unhealthy lifestyles. In fact, hanging out with doctors is down right depressing because they constantly tell you what you shouldn't be doing.


 
While mainstream doctors may not advocate unhealthy living, many poo poo holistic, nutritional and excercise approaches in favor of prescribing blood pressure and cholesterol drugs. The AMA and the pharmacuetical industry lobbies to have certain effective nutritional supplements declared drugs to prevent the purchase without a prescription. Failing that, they attempt to have the FDA regulate the supplement industry. Maybe they are afraid the supplements will cut into their prescription drug and surgery business. Don't believe it? Go here and find resolution 524 in this AMA document: www.*ama*-assn.org/meetings/public/annual05/refcomeannotateda05.doc 




PBinWA said:


> All I have done is attempted to point out some facts and tried to advocate common sense.


 
No, actually, you stated your opinion, along with a little dig at the OP, and Redneck, based upon your limited experience. Opinions are not facts, nor do they in many cases even resemble common sense.


----------



## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Cityboy said:


> Wrong answer buckwheat. Arrogance is your word in this case, not mine, but perhaps you are feeling guilty of arrogance, eh? .


 
No guilt here, I haven't resorted to name calling or derogatory comments to others in my replies.



Cityboy said:


> That, my friend, is arrogance shrouded in ignorance. If you had taken a moment to actually read the post in context, perhaps you would not have made such a jack ass, uncalled for comment that had nothing to do with the subject at hand.
> .


 
OK, the "chain email" comment may have been a teensy bit callous but you have certainly eclipsed that with you replies in this thread.



Cityboy said:


> While mainstream doctors may not advocate unhealthy living, many poo poo holistic, nutritional and excercise approaches in favor of prescribing blood pressure and cholesterol drugs.


 
I strongly disagree that "many" doctors "poo poo" nutritional and exercise approaches since these have been PROVEN effective.  They do "poo poo" holisitic approaches because they haven't been scientifically PROVEN effective.

What the Naturopathy/Holistic/Chiropractic industries have done is to take scientifically proven things and then twist them in a scientific sounding wrapper in order to attempt to validate and legitimize their otherwise incorrect assumptions.  Just because it sounds good doesn't mean it is good.  It needs to be validated scientifically for it to be a fact.



Cityboy said:


> The AMA and the pharmacuetical industry lobbies to have certain effective nutritional supplements declared drugs to prevent the purchase without a prescription. Failing that, they attempt to have the FDA regulate the supplement industry. Maybe they are afraid the supplements will cut into their prescription drug and surgery business. Don't believe it? Go here and find resolution 524 in this AMA document: www.*ama*-assn.org/meetings/public/annual05/refcomeannotateda05.doc




This is all that I could find in that document:



> Resolution 524 asks that our American Medical Association lobby for a true accounting in advertising under the auspices of the Food and Drug Administration and work for a ban on advertisements for medications or nutritional supplements *without convincing scientific evidence of their effectiveness*.


 
Ummm . . . I don't see a problem with this.  There is so much hucksterism in the nutritional supplements industry it is disgusting.  It looks like the AMA just wants to protect people from scammers.  You are the one that is assuming this is being done for nefarious purposes.

Doctors get no respect.  The fact is that most people could be treated very effectively with diet and exercise.  How many people actually will ever do what their Doctor tells them to?  I would argue that it is a small amount.  I will also argue that it is the patients that have unreal expectations when they go to the Doctor.  They want a pill and don't want to be responsible for their own lifestyle choices and/or bad genetics.  They just want to be "fixed".  If the Doctor doesn't "fix" them then it becomes the Doctor's fault and the person goes away mad.

Doctor's deal in truth, unfortunately most people don't want to hear the truth and sometimes the truth hurts.



Cityboy said:


> No, actually, you stated your opinion, along with a little dig at the OP, and Redneck, based upon your limited experience. Opinions are not facts, nor do they in many cases even resemble common sense.


 
I have not made any "digs", I have taken a position that is contrary to everyone else and made arguments against it.  I honestly was surprised that a nurse would advocate raw honey for infants (it is in the original article).

You are welcome to disagree with me but if anyone is acting arrogant or disrespectful then you may want to re-read your own posts.

PB


----------



## Cityboy

PBinWA said:


> o guilt here, I haven't resorted to name calling or derogatory comments to others in my replies.


 
Yup. Called you Buckwheat. Attempting some humor. You missed it. Sorry.



PBinWA said:


> OK, the "chain email" comment may have been a teensy bit callous but you have certainly eclipsed that with you replies in this thread.


 
I gave you a little dose of your own medicine. What? Didn't enjoy it? 




PBinWA said:


> I strongly disagree that "many" doctors "poo poo" nutritional and exercise approaches since these have been PROVEN effective. They do "poo poo" holisitic approaches because they haven't been scientifically PROVEN effective.


 
That's your opinion. You do seem to speak for what "doctors" think as if you know. What doctors? Some doctors? All doctors? A doctor you know? I based my _opinion _on my own experience and research and chose the word "many" based upon that research. I don't come close to knowing what all doctors believe, but there is an "old school" who subscribes to prescriptions and surgery over any other option.



PBinWA said:


> What the Naturopathy/Holistic/Chiropractic industries have done is to take scientifically proven things and then twist them in a scientific sounding wrapper in order to attempt to validate and legitimize their otherwise incorrect assumptions. Just because it sounds good doesn't mean it is good. It needs to be validated scientifically for it to be a fact.


 
This is a gross generalization. You are attempting to lump everyone who participates in a holistic approach to health into one category. This is just as silly as the political mudslinging both the left and right engage in. So, just because PB says it's bad doesn't mean it is. It might just work in some cases, or it might not work in other cases. 



PBinWA said:


> This is all that I could find in that document:
> 
> Ummm . . . I don't see a problem with this. There is so much hucksterism in the nutritional supplements industry it is disgusting. It looks like the AMA just wants to protect people from scammers. You are the one that is assuming this is being done for nefarious purposes.


 
I'm not assuming anything. If you read the language with an open mind, you can see the intent. The AMA wants to force the supplement industry under the jurisdiction of the FDA. The next step is restrictions on consumers ability to purchase supplements over the counter. This will achieve nothing other than driving the price of supplements up. All mainstream supplements currently carry labeling that informs consumers that their claims have not been verified by the FDA. Sure, snake oil gets advertised sometimes, but the market sorts them out and they also get sued in some extreme cases. 

So...are you now in favor of more government control? That's not very conservative of you PB.



PBinWA said:


> Doctors get no respect. The fact is that most people could be treated very effectively with diet and exercise. How many people actually will ever do what their Doctor tells them to? I would argue that it is a small amount. I will also argue that it is the patients that have unreal expectations when they go to the Doctor. They want a pill and don't want to be responsible for their own lifestyle choices and/or bad genetics. They just want to be "fixed". If the Doctor doesn't "fix" them then it becomes the Doctor's fault and the person goes away mad.


 
I don't disagree here for the most part, except that doctors do, of course get all the respect they *earn* from their patients. Simply holding the title of doctor does not and should not automatically guarantee respect.

But I do completely agree that the sheeple want to be fixed with no effort on their part. But I also believe the medical industry has contributed greatly to this mindset.



PBinWA said:


> Doctor's deal in truth, unfortunately most people don't want to hear the truth and sometimes the truth hurts.


 
You should qualify this statement by saying _Most_ doctors deal in truth. There are many doctors who are not truthful or competent. We read about some of these doctors in the news quite frequently, but it's the ones that you don't hear about that should concern you even more. My family has been affected by incompetent doctors, and everyone at a minimum knows of a fatal, or nearly fatal screw up that has either happened to them personally, or to a family member or to someone they know. That's far too many mistakes being made far too frequently. It pays to be skeptical and to get second and third opinions. No one should automatically accept a doctors opinion just because that person has the title MD behing their name.





PBinWA said:


> I have not made any "digs", I have taken a position that is contrary to everyone else and made arguments against it. I honestly was surprised that a nurse would advocate raw honey for infants (it is in the original article).


 
I did not see her advocate anything. She posted an article. You made assumptions.



PBinWA said:


> You are welcome to disagree with me but if anyone is acting arrogant or disrespectful then you may want to re-read your own posts.
> 
> PB


 
Perhaps I do need to reread some of my posts, and I will. You might do the same. I'm giving you back what I percieve you to be dishing out.


----------



## American Woman

PBinWA said:
			
		

> *Smells like a chain email in here.
> 
> Shouldn't a nurse in a NICU be at least concerned*   ?


This PB is not a reply from a person who "just concerned" the evidence may not be what they are cracked up to be. You could have said something like you have trouble believing all the uses and your reasons....so as to leave a rebuttal open. As in debate....your thoughts verses her thoughts. It would have been interesting as the reader (me) to hear two different sides from two different professions.
But you ruined that with an "attack" on CG's professional ethics. When you say something like.*"**Shouldn't a nurse in a NICU be at least concerned"*?
Shame on you for being "catty"



			
				PBinWA said:
			
		

> That just reeks of quackery to me.  I don't believe much in Naturopathy, Herbalism, Chiropractics or any of that hippy "feel good" B.S.  The rest of the article makes honey seem like it is going to cure cancer and stop world hunger.


Again.....Shame on you for being "catty"
All you had to say was,"I don't believe much in Naturopathy, Herbalism, Chiropractics or any of that hippy "feel good" B.S. The rest of the article makes honey seem like it is going to cure cancer and stop world hunger. This would have been a decent rebuttle. You didn't have to be "catty" in the beginning.




			
				PBinWA said:
			
		

> As I stated before, you are welcome to believe what you want to believe.  However, I will never give these "alternative" medical approaches an ounce of credit unless they come up with some serious scientifically validated evidence.


 You didn't call anyone a quack, or question their professional ethics because of where they work. This is ALL you had to say in order to get a debate going.



			
				PBinWA said:
			
		

> My Mom had a Chiropractor tell her that one of her vertebrae was completely turned around. I couldn't for the life of me get her to believe me that if that was really the case then she would be a parapalegic.





			
				PBinWA said:
			
		

> The doctors didn't kill anybody. Your father obviously was sick to begin with. The doctors do the best they can to save people but not everyone can be saved. Trying to blame a doctor for complications due to a quadruple bypass is just wrong. Doctors are people too and can not catch every little thing.
> Some times people die. You can't blame Doctors for that.
> I think you have a lot of misdirected anger towards the medical profession.


This is just plain heartless...."Everybody is going to die"?....we just wish his time wasn't as soon as it was because he was in the hospital over the weekend and that's when the neglect happens most often. I would never say something like this to someone that is grieving.
And you can have your say that you think a chiropractor is not any good because of how your Momma was treated...But Redneck and I aren't allowed to say 
              A scientifically documented licensed MD neglected our Dad's because he was going to die anyway?  So there aren't quacks in the medical proffession? SHAME ON YOU!


			
				PBinWA said:
			
		

> I think you are the one that is coming up with the arrogant opinions (perhaps I pissed off your wife or something).


 You were the arrogant one from the "get-go" with this statement..."*Smells like a chain email in here."
"Shouldn't a nurse in a NICU be at least concerned*" This was "catty"
CG has been nothing but professional in her replies despite your arrogance.



			
				PBinWA said:
			
		

> If you read back over my replies, I have stated my points and never asserted that you shouldn't do what you want to do and have never presented myself as a nutritional expert.  The only reason I mentioned my university degree was to emphasize that I had as much or more anatomy and physiology training as a Chiropractor.  In fact, I just checked the curriculum for a Chiropractic school and it looks like it is only a 3 year program.  I had to got to school for 4.5 years to get my Bachelors degree. All I have done is attempted to point out some facts and tried to advocate common sense.


 By the time you mentioned your education we were already on the defense because of how un professional you had already been.



			
				PBinWA said:
			
		

> No guilt here, I haven't resorted to name calling or derogatory comments to others in my replies.
> OK, the "chain email" comment may have been a teensy bit callous but you have certainly eclipsed that with you replies in this thread.


So was the comment that Rednecks Daddy was going to die anyway, rather than admit there may be A scientifically documented licensed MD that was neglectful.



			
				PBinWA said:
			
		

> I strongly disagree that "many" doctors "poo poo" nutritional and exercise approaches since these have been PROVEN effective.  They do "poo poo" holisitic approaches because they haven't been scientifically PROVEN effective.


 You pay certain doctors to say what you want to hear and "vise versa"



			
				PBinWA said:
			
		

> I have not made any "digs", I have taken a position that is contrary to everyone else and made arguments against it.  I honestly was surprised that a nurse would advocate raw honey for infants (it is in the original article).
> PB





			
				PBinWA said:
			
		

> *Smells like a chain email in here.
> 
> Shouldn't a nurse in a NICU be at least concerned*


----------



## Cityboy

AW, You go girl! Excellent post.   

--------> PBAW <------------


----------



## OhioTC18 RIP

I thought this was the Health and Fitness Forum. 
It's getting to be more like the Debate and Disagreement Forum     err........Debate and Discussion Forum


----------



## American Woman

OhioTC18 said:


> I thought this was the Health and Fitness Forum.
> It's getting to be more like the Debate and Disagreement Forum     err........Debate and Discussion Forum


Yea, because people didn't stay on topic. It really needs to be moved now.


----------



## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

I've made my points.  All the rest is just name calling.  I'm out of this thread.


----------



## Cityboy

PBinWA said:


> I've made my points. All the rest is just name calling. I'm out of this thread.


 
See ya later, Junkman......err...PB.


----------



## American Woman

Good, back to the topic at hand.....What's the difference between bee pollen and bee honey?


----------



## pirate_girl

Ya know, most of us went off topic in this thread from the get-go.
Seems like that happens a lot in threads where opinions are strong.
It was bound to happen.
Now then... how about that honey, Honey? lol


----------



## American Woman

pirate_girl said:


> Ya know, most of us went off topic in this thread from the get-go.
> Seems like that happens a lot in threads where opinions are strong.
> It was bound to happen.
> Now then... how about that honey, Honey? lol


So do you know the differnce between honey and bee pollen?


----------



## pirate_girl

Can't say I do.


----------



## Bobcat

*Bee bread or bee pollen* is the main source of food for most honey bees and their larvae. Bee bread consists of honey and pollens which are gathered by the worker bees. A recent study of bee bread showed it contain 188 kinds of fungi and 29 kinds of bacteria. Bee bread is sometimes referred to as ambrosia.

Bee pollen contains:

All the essential amino acids 
A full spectrum of vitamins especially vitamins B12 and E; and significant amounts of B1, B2, B3, B5, C, and vitamin D 
Various minerals including calcium, manganese, phosphorous, iron, sodium, potassium, aluminium, magnesium and copper 
Trace elements and enzymes (including antioxidants), and co-enzymes, pigments, xanthophylls, carotenes, and sterols, phytosterols, lignans (dibenzyl butanes) isoflavones and flavonoids 
Hormone precursors (which stimulate hormone production and help anti-ageing) 
Carbohydrates and fatty acids 
Bee bread is used in naturopathic medicine traditions and as a nutritional supplement, although exposure may trigger allergic or anaphylactic reactions in sensitive people.





*Honey* is a sweet and viscous fluid produced by honey bees (and some other species), and derived from the nectar of flowers. According to the United States National Honey Board and various international food regulations, "honey stipulates a pure product that does not allow for the addition of any other substance…this includes, but is not limited to, water or other sweeteners". This article refers exclusively to the honey produced by honey bees (the genus Apis); honey produced by other bees or other insects has very different properties.

Honey gets its sweetness from the monosaccharides fructose and glucose and has approximately the same relative sweetness as granulated sugar (97% of the sweetness of sucrose, a disaccharide). Honey has attractive chemical properties for baking, and a distinctive flavor which leads some people to prefer it over sugar and other sweeteners.

Most micro-organisms do not grow in honey because of its low water activity of 0.6. However, it is important to note that honey frequently contains dormant endospores of the bacterium Clostridium botulinum, which can be dangerous to infants as the endospores can transform into toxin-producing bacteria in the infant's immature intestinal tract, leading to illness and even death (see Precautions below).

The study of pollens and spores in raw honey (melissopalynology) can determine floral sources of honey. Because bees carry an electrostatic charge, and can attract other particles, the same techniques of melissopalynology can be used in area environmental studies of radioactive particles, dust, or particulate pollution.

A main effect of bees collecting nectar to make honey is pollination, which is crucial for flowering plants.

The beekeeper encourages overproduction of honey within the hive so that the excess can be taken without endangering the bees. When sources of foods for the bees are short the beekeeper may have to give the bees supplementary nutrition.



I am not an apiarist, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.


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## pirate_girl

Bobcat said:


> I am not an apiarist, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.


Without me present, *Honey..*

That I believe, was staying On Topic..


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## pirate_girl

http://www.honeybeepollen.com/IncredibleHoney.html


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## American Woman

Bobcat said:


> I am not an apiarist, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.


There was a big deal about Bee pollen pills that were supposed to help you lose weight and improve your over all health. They were expensive, and I thought it to be ANOTHER weight loss scheme. So I was wondering why the pollen would be different from the honey losing weight.


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## Bobcat

Sorry, I'm in a Days Inn tonight.


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## Erik

bee pollen is primarily pollen from local plants "harvested" from a beehive and often packaged in gel capsules for ease of consumption as an alternative to allergy shots, among other uses.
raw honey also has some of this pollen in it, which is part of where the health benefits come from, so long as the raw honey is from a local source.  

I've used honey for sore throats in the past as well, but was not aware of the use to help in healing from MRSA and surface burns.  (makes good wine, too)

off topic for a moment - chiropractic manipulation is an offshoot of osteopathic medicine and a D.O. *is* a real doctor, having gone through medical school and often the same hospital rotations and residency as an M.D.  just like "real" doctors, some chiropractors do more harm than good, some do exactly what's needed at the time to achieve temporary relief and allow the body to do its own healing.


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## pirate_girl

Bobcat said:


> Sorry, I'm in a Days Inn tonight.


Stop pollen my leg, Honey...
Again, on topic... LOL!
stop groaning, I can hear ya all the way from here..


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## Bobcat

Will you beehave?


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## Erik

bee careful or you'll both hive to be separated until you can again wax eloquently on topic.


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## pirate_girl

Bobcat said:


> Will you beehave?


Maybee, bzzzzzzzzz....


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## daedong

Bobcat said:


> Will you beehave?



buzz off mate


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## Bobcat

My, but you do drone on.


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## pirate_girl

Erik said:


> bee careful or you'll both hive to be separated until you can again wax eloquently on topic.


 that was GOOD Erik!!


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## Bobcat

daedong said:


> buzz off mate




Such stinging retort.


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## American Woman

Erik said:


> bee pollen is primarily pollen from local plants "harvested" from a beehive and often packaged in gel capsules for ease of consumption as an alternative to allergy shots, among other uses.
> raw honey also has some of this pollen in it, which is part of where the health benefits come from, so long as the raw honey is from a local source.
> 
> I've used honey for sore throats in the past as well, but was not aware of the use to help in healing from MRSA and surface burns.  (makes good wine, too)
> 
> off topic for a moment - chiropractic manipulation is an offshoot of osteopathic medicine and a D.O. *is* a real doctor, having gone through medical school and often the same hospital rotations and residency as an M.D.  just like "real" doctors, some chiropractors do more harm than good, some do exactly what's needed at the time to achieve temporary relief and allow the body to do its own healing.


 You never cease to impress me......But while we are off topic....Where are those pictures you promised me


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## pirate_girl

My Honey said: 
Such stinging retort. 
__________________
LOL!!!


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## Erik

American Woman said:


> You never cease to impress me......But while we are off topic....Where are those pictures you promised me


um, still in my computer?


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## daedong

Back to topic the honey I beelieve is most valuable is Manuka honey

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Manuka+honey

manuka honey (m
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




·nōōˑ·k
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 huˑ·nē),_n_ honey gathered from flowers of the manuka bush, 
_Leptospermum scoparium,_ a wild plant found in New Zealand. The active honey, in the nonpasteurized form, contains a potent antibacterial compound called unique manuka factor (UMF). Manuka honey is used to treat sore throats, skin ulcers, heartburn, peptic ulcers, to fight 
_Helicobacter pylori_ bacteria, and as a wound dressing. Also called 
_active manuka honey_.


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## American Woman

Erik said:


> um, still in my computer?


So you have some? How much longer do I HIVE to wait?


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## thcri RIP

daedong said:


> Back to topic the honey I beelieve is most valuable is Manuka honey




Vin, did some searching on it.  Are you familiar in the use of the is product and can you only buy it online?  When I did a search I could only find that you can buy it online and not at a local place?


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## daedong

thcri said:


> Vin, did some searching on it.  Are you familiar in the use of the is product and can you only buy it online?  When I did a search I could only find that you can buy it online and not at a local place?



All I know my wife has used it in the nursing home.


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## Erik

American Woman said:


> So you have some? How much longer do I HIVE to wait?


no need to be waspish about it.


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## CityGirl

daedong said:


> Back to topic the honey I beelieve is most valuable is Manuka honey
> 
> http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Manuka+honey
> 
> manuka honey (m
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ·nōōˑ·k
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> huˑ·nē),_n_ honey gathered from flowers of the manuka bush,
> _Leptospermum scoparium,_ a wild plant found in New Zealand. The active honey, in the nonpasteurized form, contains a potent antibacterial compound called unique manuka factor (UMF). Manuka honey is used to treat sore throats, skin ulcers, heartburn, peptic ulcers, to fight
> _Helicobacter pylori_ bacteria, and as a wound dressing. Also called
> _active manuka honey_.


 
Absolutely.  I believe it is Manuka honey which is being used for hospital applications.  There is  a ton of data from research doctors in New Zealand re: Manuka Honey.  It is Manuka honey being used to treat MRSA wounds.


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## thcri RIP

CityGirl said:


> Absolutely.  I believe it is Manuka honey which is being used for hospital applications.  There is  a ton of data from research doctors in New Zealand re: Manuka Honey.  It is Manuka honey being used to treat MRSA wounds.




Citygirl can you buy it a local stores that you  know of?  I called a few local places and none have ever heard of it?  Found some places online but that is it.

murph


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## CityGirl

thcri said:


> Citygirl can you buy it a local stores that you know of? I called a few local places and none have ever heard of it? Found some places online but that is it.
> 
> murph


 
I am not aware of any stores carrying the product, yet.  You can ask your local store managers to see if they can stock it.  Might have better luck with a local health food store.  They are more likely to be interested in stocking the product.  Just a few years ago, I could not find any US sources for Manuka Honey.  If I'd have ordered it, I would have had to have it shipped from Australia.


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## muleman RIP

Bump, as I am using raw honey every day myself.


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## FrancSevin

So am I.  Unfortunately the heat of this summer blew out my hive down at the ranch. So I BEElive I will hive to buy it at local health stores

I have about two quarts of real raw honey from earlier this summer.  It will not make it thru this winter.
I am not a beelkeeper myself,my neighbor is. She took care of my hive along with all of hers.  She lost everything to the drought and heat this summer.

I will miss the innoculative effects of local honey on my hay fever allergies next spring.Oh well there is always conventional Pharmacology to fall back on.


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## julianmac1212

A natural product used for healing many diseases. Honey is used as a cough treatment, used with milk, anti-cancer, for ailments.


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## muleman RIP

And how much are you selling these things for?


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