# Bob Barr on Health Care



## Bobcat

Yup, a shameless political plug. 



> *Bob Barr on: Health Care*
> 
> Access to affordable, quality health care is an important objective. For this reason, some politicians have pushed for government programs to extend health care benefits to those who cannot afford or who otherwise do not maintain private medical insurance. These efforts come on top of taxpayer-subsidized benefits in the form of Medicare and Medicaid.
> 
> There are many causes of today’s high healthcare cost “crisis”. Medical care costs more than it should; access to insurance is more limited by government than it should be; the practice of medicine is more regulated than it should be. The American health care system desperately needs to be treated for ill health.
> 
> Our health care policy should be reformed based on the principle of consumer-oriented health care. Regulations which mandate insurance coverage and inflate premiums should be eliminated. Controls which unduly restrict competition within the health care industry, and that limit access to insurance across state lines, should be ended. Moreover, current tax policy, which is biased towards employer-provided, comprehensive health insurance, should be reformed, encouraging individual purchase of less costly catastrophic policies.
> 
> Federal health care programs, most notably Medicare and Medicaid, have become financially unsustainable. These programs need to be transformed to emphasize patient choice, focus on the truly needy, and add cost-saving incentives. Here, too, market principles should be applied to bring better quality health care at less cost.
> 
> Today’s health care problems are complex, but the solution is not socialized medicine in any form. Countries that have nationalized their medical systems inevitably ration care through the political system; costs are driven down only by denying needed care.



www.lp.org
www.bobbarr2008.com


----------



## daedong

> costs are driven down only by denying needed care.


Wrong its not necessarily just about cost, its more about providing health care for all.


----------



## Bobcat

Why stop at providing 'free' health care for all? Why not 'free' food for all? 'Free' housing for all? People need food and shelter as much as they need healthcare. Why not make it all 'free'? Let's do it right. Pool all the money and have all goods and services distributed by the govt! Your utopian dream, no?


----------



## daedong

Bobcat said:


> Why stop at providing 'free' health care for all? Why not 'free' food for all? 'Free' housing for all? People need food and shelter as much as they need healthcare. Why not make it all 'free'? Let's do it right. Pool all the money and have all goods and services distributed by the govt! Your utopian dream, no?



Once again you nearly have it right No one in our society should go hungry or without sheller.


----------



## Bobcat

And you would like to take whats needed by force from those who might have freely given anyway?


----------



## daedong

Bobcat said:


> And you would like to take whats needed by force from those who might have freely given anyway?



Could you please rephrase this so I can understand exactly what you are saying.


----------



## AndyM

I already solved the health care "crisis" in the "Bob Barr on Marriage" thread...


Since Vin established that there should be NO marriage regulation, one person with *really *good medical insurance can marry *all *the men and women who lack medical insurance, add them to their carrier's family coverage, and presto... Everyone in this country is covered!  
Heck, marry all of the house pets too... except for a co-pay, no more vet bills!


----------



## Bobcat

daedong said:


> Could you please rephrase this so I can understand exactly what you are saying.



Any govt law is a threat of force. I might have more to spend on charity if the govt didn't take so much from me, under the threat of force, and spend it more frivolously than I would.

How much do you freely give each year to someone to see that they do not go hungry or without shelter? I give thousands each year, and do so without the overhead of a govt or large organization redistributing it. I give directly to whomever needs it without being asked and without being forced. What's taken from me in taxes IS taken with the threat of force, and I know it isn't spent as well as what I give independently.

I've noticed that your ability to understand the written word seems to falter when exposed to ideas that extend beyond socialism.


----------



## thcri RIP

Bobcat said:


> Any govt law is a threat of force. I might have more to spend on charity if the govt didn't take so much from me, under the threat of force, and spend it more frivolously than I would.
> 
> How much do you freely give each year to someone to see that they do not go hungry or without shelter? I give thousands each year, and do so without the overhead of a govt or large organization redistributing it. I give directly to whomever needs it without being asked and without being forced. What's taken from me in taxes IS taken with the threat of force, and I know it isn't spent as well as what I give independently.




Well said, well said.   s up  


We just seem to be taking more and more from not the wealthy but the ones that truly work and give it to the ones that don't work.  As Bob said as I have done in the past, I give.  I don't mind giving to those the seriously need it but I hate giving to those that lay around the house and complain.  Taking from the ones that work only depresses them and they give up hope and soon there will be nothing to give to the ones that truly need it.


----------



## Bobcat

I think Vin has run off to consult his copy of Das Kapital for a viable retort.


----------



## daedong

Bobcat said:


> Any govt law is a threat of force. I might have more to spend on charity if the govt didn't take so much from me, under the threat of force, and spend it more frivolously than I would.
> 
> How much do you freely give each year to someone to see that they do not go hungry or without shelter? I give thousands each year, and do so without the overhead of a govt or large organization redistributing it. I give directly to whomever needs it without being asked and without being forced. What's taken from me in taxes IS taken with the threat of force, and I know it isn't spent as well as what I give independently.
> 
> I've noticed that your ability to understand the written word seems to falter when exposed to ideas that extend beyond socialism.



I pay what ever federal tax is required to provide array of assistance to my fellow Australian family. In fact there is a cases here (regarding our health system) where I actually believe that taxes should be increased. As a citizen of this nation it is not only in my interest but is critical for a healthy and stability of the country. On top of that it is the only fair and equitable way that assistance can be administrated to those in need without discrimination. You as an individual handing out money indiscriminately with little if any research is certainly not the fairest and most efficient way of dealing with social problems. 

Also unlike you, I have faith in my government and the democratic system we have. for sure there are times when the government makes mistakes and ****s things up but because we have a functional democratic society they are corrected readily.


----------



## daedong

Where you to Bob looking up your anarchist bible


----------



## thcri RIP

Vin, in all seriousness isn't there a time or will there be a time when you get sick of your government upping the annie continuously.  Will there be a time when you say enough is enough?  Will you see some day the abuse in the system and that corrections won't be made anymore.  Will  there be a time when you see people abusing the system more and more and the percentage of dollars taken versus what is issued out because of paper work?


----------



## Bobcat

I don't take issue with too much you say here, as it shows a benevolent interest in your fellow man, except...



daedong said:


> <snip>
> You as an individual handing out money indiscriminately with little if any research is certainly not the fairest and most efficient way of dealing with social problems.



You have nothing with which to base this. Why do you say it? If I personally know someone in need, and know exactly what that need is, and help them take care of it, how is it indescriminate, without research, unfair, or inefficient? I assume these assumptions are based on your socialist upbringing that says only govt is capable of social engineering or benevolence on any scale.



daedong said:


> Also unlike you, I have faith in my government and the democratic system we have. for sure there are times when the government makes mistakes and ****s things up but because we have a functional democratic society they are corrected readily.



I too have faith in my democratic system. That is why I was able to take an oath to try to help correct its mistakes and ****ed-up things within the system rather than by force. Unfortunately, one of the most ****ed up things right now is the 'two-party system' which is limiting our ability to correct things. We're working on it...


Also, unlike you, I have paid all taxes demanded of me and filed for all licenses, permits, and registrations that are supposedly required for the good of the community, whether I agree with them or not.


----------



## Bobcat

daedong said:


> Where you to Bob looking up your anarchist bible



You seem to not know the boundary between freedom/liberty and anarchy. Our Constitution, which I whole-heartly accept as the law of the land, pre-empts anarchy.



> *anarchy*
> -noun
> 1. a state of society without government or law.
> 2. political and social disorder due to the absence of governmental control: The death of the king was followed by a year of anarchy.
> 3. a theory that regards the absence of all direct or coercive government as a political ideal and that proposes the cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organized society.
> 4. confusion; chaos; disorder: Intellectual and moral anarchy followed his loss of faith.




_I do have a copy of the anarchist cookbook, but just for fun._


----------



## Bobcat

Gotta run out for some prime rib before the Dems make it illegal because of health concerns and the effect it will have on the healthcare system... See you in a few.


----------



## daedong

thcri said:


> Vin, in all seriousness isn't there a time or will there be a time when you get sick of your government upping the annie continuously.  Will there be a time when you say enough is enough?  Will you see some day the abuse in the system and that corrections won't be made anymore.  Will  there be a time when you see people abusing the system more and more and the percentage of dollars taken versus what is issued out because of paper work?



A bit like what I think  Bob is saying when things are not right kick the government out.

Bob I did state Federal,  in this country local government pretty much does nothing for the people other than collect the trash.


----------



## daedong

Bobcat said:


> You have nothing with which to base this. Why do you say it? If I personally know someone in need, and know exactly what that need is, and help them take care of it, how is it indescriminate, without research, unfair, or inefficient? I assume these assumptions are based on your socialist upbringing that says only govt is capable of social engineering or benevolence on any scale.



What about the person in need that you don't know about, that is why your approach is indiscriminate.


----------



## thcri RIP

daedong said:


> What about the person in need that you don't know about, that is why your approach is indiscriminate.




What about the guy that doesn't need but yet has the courage to cheat the system?


----------



## AndyM

daedong said:


> What about the person in need that you don't know about, that is why your approach is indiscriminate.



Does the government know about every person in need?

The local person not only knows whether his neighbor is in need, but also if that need is truly legitimate.

One individual helping another 50 feet away works better than a department of people making those determinations from thousands of miles away.


----------



## AndyM

thcri said:


> What about the guy that doesn't need but yet has the courage to cheat the system?



What about the guy who needs but is too proud to ask?
The government can't see the need but those who are close by can.


----------



## thcri RIP

AndyM said:


> What about the guy who needs but is too proud to ask?
> The government can't see the need but those who are close by can.


----------



## daedong

Wasting my time I think, but what about the situation where many people lose their jobs in one district due to a factory closing, who is going to help them?


----------



## thcri RIP

daedong said:


> Wasting my time I think, but what about the situation where many people lose their jobs in one district due to a factory closing, who is going to help them?



Unemployment insurance helps them.  That is already in place and has been for years.  Does it keep you on the same pay scale as what you were making, No?  But better than nothing.

We are in a time where out government can not be adding taxes but finding ways to help everyone with less government.  Government programs have gotten way out of hand with a lot of waste.  Just taxing all the time is never going to fix anything as there isn't going to be any money for taxes soon.


----------



## Spiffy1

daedong said:


> Wasting my time I think, but what about the situation where many people lose their jobs in one district due to a factory closing, who is going to help them?


 

There is already Unemployment Insurance - paid for out of your [supposedly employer's, but the math comes out the same] paycheck and doled out by government job centers.  Then, depending somewhat on the state, all sorts of laws, like 6 weeks paid 'closure warning.' etc. etc.    

Cobra health care [expensive because you pay the portion previously paid by your employer plus the portion you had paid] continues your insurance.

A better plan: let's allow businesses to run profitably and stop having so many plants close.


----------



## Deadly Sushi

Free healthcare ONLY for the employeed that are drug free, with no addictions.....and the elderly. Everyone else must move to Mexico


----------



## AndyM

Deadly Sushi said:


> Free healthcare...



Free?  What healthcare is free?


----------



## daedong

AndyM said:


> Free?  What healthcare is free?


There is none


----------



## daedong

Bobcat said:


> I give thousands each year, and do so without the overhead of a govt or large organization redistributing it. I give directly to whomever needs it without being asked and without being forced.



Just curious, is there any tax benefit?


----------



## Deadly Sushi

daedong said:


> Just curious, is there any tax benefit?


 
It would be great if there was! But I think the money must be donated to a 501C Charitable organization in order to claim it on taxes.


----------



## Spiffy1

daedong said:


> Just curious, is there any tax benefit?


 
I'm no accountant so forgive the shortcomings:

The simple answer yes, the long answer maybe;

Yes [though as Sushi implied if auditted you'll likely need reciepts to prove it legit, but the eligible organizations range from churches to universities and almost everything imaginable in between]; however:

at one end of the spectrum there is the "standard deduction" a single figure already assuming a modest combination of expenses and donations ect., so if you're using that, no you don't yeild further financial gain. 

On the other end, I believe there are some limits, or at least some percent that would generate an audit.


Back to the simple answer, if you're expecing to pay at a 20% rate, then the donated amount [including value of material items and milage] would be that much less you'd pay on: yielding a 20% [not to mention potential gains from a lower bracket] reward.

Compared to the expense [even without waste] of beaucrats doling it out, I'd say the 'reward' is quite cheap for the federal government.


----------



## Bobcat

daedong said:


> Just curious, is there any tax benefit?



I have never reaped any tax benefit and have never bothered to see if there was one to be had. You question my motive?


----------



## daedong

Bobcat said:


> I have never reaped any tax benefit and have never bothered to see if there was one to be had. You question my motive?



Nope simple question , do you feel guilty of something?


----------



## Spiffy1

daedong said:


> Nope simple question , do you feel guilty of something?


 
I never factor it into the decision when giving to a charity, but do always add everything up at tax time to see whether I make out better itemizing or taking the standard.


----------



## daedong

Spiffy1 said:


> *I never factor it into the decision when giving to a charity*, but do always add everything up at tax time to see whether I make out better itemizing or taking the standard.



I would hope not


----------



## Bobcat

daedong said:


> Nope simple question , do you feel guilty of something?



Nope, zero guilt, but I did grow up in the projects outside of Boston. I know what it's like to be poor and to not have healthcare. More here... http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showthread.php?p=102231

You?


----------



## daedong

Bobcat said:


> Nope, zero guilt, but I did grow up in the projects outside of Boston. I know what it's like to be poor and to not have healthcare. More here... http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showthread.php?p=102231
> 
> You?



Don't talk much about my past as a kid, but I did grow up in a government rental home in a working class town, would never describe my childhood as poor but played with plenty of kids that came from very humble homes so to speak.


----------



## daedong

Read your post. You are one lucky guy to have done so well in life as you have, unfortunately you are the exception rather than the rule.


----------



## thcri RIP

Bobcat said:


> Nope, zero guilt, but I did grow up in the projects outside of Boston. I know what it's like to be poor and to not have healthcare. More here... http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showthread.php?p=102231
> 
> You?




I didn't grow up in any projects but my mom and dad had very poor insurance with their youngest child at 2 years old getting epilepsy.  It drained us because barely any of her medical expenses were paid for.  She went to being severally brain damaged from the epilepsy.  But even if they could have afforded better health insurance no one would take us because of pre-existing conditions.


----------



## daedong

thcri said:


> I didn't grow up in any projects but my mom and dad had very poor insurance with their youngest child at 2 years old getting epilepsy.  It drained us because barely any of her medical expenses were paid for.  She went to being severally brain damaged from the epilepsy.  But even if they could have afforded better health insurance no one would take us because of pre-existing conditions.



Sorry to hear that. This is why I am so greatful for the system we have, One you would have had very good public cover no matter what, and if you wanted private cover you would not be denied it due to a pre-existing condition.


----------



## thcri RIP

daedong said:


> Sorry to hear that. This is why I am so greatful for the system we have, One you would have had very good public cover no matter what, and if you wanted private cover you would not be denied it due to a pre-existing condition.



The pre-existing crap is now gone at least in Minnesota.  You can no longer be denied because of a pre-existing illness.  A lot of employers pay for their employees like I do.  I offer for the rest of the family and they get a good rate but they do have to pay for that portion.


----------

