# What so damn bad about social medicine ??



## BigAl RIP

OK ... PG's post the other day about her medical bills got me to thinkin ......again . ...  Maybe that is not good 


. Anyway>>>>>Just what is so bad about social medicine ??? PG paid cash and had to take a hard hit  on paying other things . Why in the hell can't we have social medicine for those who can't pay and the option of private health care for those who can and want the  the bullshit prices , insurance companys charge for monthly premiums ???? 

   We all already paying for the illegals . Lets stop sucking up to the illegals who do not contribute a fickin thing to the US health care mess and just take care of America first . I say open up the military bases to all American citizens for health care who can't afford it any other way . Illegals are not going to set foot on a military base for fear of deportation . Pay the doctor's education cost and in return they have to give the U.S . 7 years of doctoring at military wages . 


 Does that sound too simple ????

 For what we pay in the US ,our health care sucks . BIG TIME !!! Maybe we need to take a look at some of these so called 3rd world countries that are kicking are ass when it comes to taking care of their citizens . 


   OK .... now go ahead and flame me ....... I'm to tired to fight .


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## mak2

Good post Al.  I got your back.  Course I ahve been drinkin'.


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## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

There's nothing wrong with socialized medicine but the quality of service that someone like Big Al is used to getting will not be available (unless there is a private option).  The only other point is that you have to pay for it.  Your taxes will be much higher.  

Even though I had to go to the hospital twice last year and it ended up costing me a lot of money, at the end of the day it was much much less than I would have paid in taxes over the last 10 years if I had been living in Canada.  I actually think the US treatment I got was jacked up and they ran a lot of unnecessary and expensive tests.  In Canada they would have treated me and only ran the tests if the treatment wasn't effective.  

The US system would be better if there was a way to force the "system" to be more cost effective without enriching the trial lawyers.

So my main point is that you can have socialized medicine, it comes with a different standard of care and it costs you a lot more in taxes.  Is that what you want?


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## BigAl RIP

mak2 said:


> Good post Al. I got your back. *Course I ahve been drinkin'.*


  Me Too !!! I'm Tired and  I just kicked the corner of the eating bar with my toe getting a drink . I'm doing my crocth hop impression while typing this . Damn that hurts . 

Why does life have to be so fickin complicated ???? The average Joe just wants a warm bed , a little food , A goverment to believe in . A job , And to be left alone from the phone sales soliciters at night after working all day .


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## mak2

PBinWA said:


> There's nothing wrong with socialized medicine but the quality of service that someone like Big Al is used to getting will not be available (unless there is a private option).  The only other point is that you have to pay for it.  Your taxes will be much higher.
> 
> Even though I had to go to the hospital twice last year and it ended up costing me a lot of money, at the end of the day it was much much less than I would have paid in taxes over the last 10 years if I had been living in Canada.  I actually think the US treatment I got was jacked up and they ran a lot of unnecessary and expensive tests.  In Canada they would have treated me and only ran the tests if the treatment wasn't effective.
> 
> The US system would be better if there was a way to force the "system" to be more cost effective without enriching the trial lawyers.
> 
> So my main point is that you can have socialized medicine, it comes with a different standard of care and it costs you a lot more in taxes.  Is that what you want?



Please site references for any of the above. In all cases world wide any form of UHC has been more effienct and better care than our system.  Perhaps, if you are like me you and Al you can get more care than most, it does not mean it is better.  I dont wanna pick on you PB, but UHC provides better care and costs less.  I have yet to see anyone present a real study that say otherwise.  Your taxes might be higher, but your insurance premiums will be gone.


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## BigAl RIP

PBinWA said:


> *So my main point is that you can have socialized medicine, it comes with a different standard of care and it costs you a lot more in taxes. Is that what you want*?


 So why don't we drop some of the bullcrap  international programs that are not helping the US one bit and convert that to pay for this service . Hell I bet we would have money left over !!!!


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## grizzer

Socialized healthcare is great just make a healthy contribution on Apr 18.

Then go stand in line.

Or you can use your free will and make a free will charitable contribution to something you deem important Somebody may thank you.


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## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Life is complicated because we elect too many lawyers to government.  Lawyers sole purpose is to complicate things so much that regular people need to hire lawyers just to figure it out.  

Geez, what else do you need me to explain to you Al?


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## BigAl RIP

Another thing ? Would you rather give the money to the private health care insurance bastards or support your own goverments health care program  ???


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## BigAl RIP

PBinWA said:


> Geez, what else do you need me to explain to you Al?


  Geez PB . I sure have seen this work pretty damn well in a lot of other countries . Whats our problem ?


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## mak2

BigAl said:


> Another thing ? Would you rather give the money to the private health care insurance bastards or support your own goverments health care program  ???



So they (insurance company execs) can take off from the helipad behind Anthem and get dust in my eyes while I am riding my bike to work.


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## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

mak2 said:


> Please site references for any of the above. In all cases world wide any form of UHC has been more effienct and better care than our system.  Perhaps, if you are like me you and Al you can get more care than most, it does not mean it is better.  I dont wanna pick on you PB, but UHC provides better care and costs less.  I have yet to see anyone present a real study that say otherwise.  Your taxes might be higher, but your insurance premiums will be gone.



I'm not going to reply to you anymore as we have done this before.  I spent 30 years living with UHC and 10 years with US healthcare.  Neither system is "horrible", they both have their good points and their bad points.

The number one thing that is really different is the cost.  The productive working and employed citizen will pay more in taxes for UHC.

For example an employed person like PG will pay more for UHC than if she had just saved extra money for these sort of disasters.  The sad reality is that very few people save enough for these things.  However, I bet PG would be paying at least 35% income tax at her salary in Canada.

Do the math.  It ain't pretty.

I won't be replying back to mak again - same old shit different thread.


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## Melensdad

If I am a doctor what gives you the right to set my prices? To mandate my services? To control my life?  

Do you do that to grocery store owners?  Or carpenters who build your home?  

You need food to live.  You need shelter to survive.  In fact it could be argued that both are more important than doctors because in the course of a normal human life you only spend a small portion of it sick but you eat every day and you need shelter every day.


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## mak2

PBinWA said:


> I'm not going to reply to you anymore as we have done this before.  I spent 30 years living with UHC and 10 years with US healthcare.  Neither system is "horrible", they both have their good points and their bad points.
> 
> The number one thing that is really different is the cost.  The productive working and employed citizen will pay more in taxes for UHC.
> 
> For example an employed person like PG will pay more for UHC than if she had just saved extra money for these sort of disasters.  The sad reality is that very few people save enough for these things.  However, I bet PG would be paying at least 35% income tax at her salary in Canada.
> 
> Do the math.  It ain't pretty.
> 
> I won't be replying back to mak again - same old shit different thread.



Most expensive, 17th life expectancy.  Yep you are right.


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## mak2

Damn, my bad, that was a few years ago.  We are still the most expensive, but now we are 50th in life expetancy.  Yep our medical system is the best.  Hehe.


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## BigAl RIP

Melensdad said:


> If I am a doctor what gives you the right to set my prices? To mandate my services? To control my life?
> 
> Do you do that to grocery store owners? Or carpenters who build your home?
> 
> You need food to live. You need shelter to survive. In fact it could be argued that both are more important than doctors because in the course of a normal human life you only spend a small portion of it sick but you eat every day and you need shelter every day.


 

 Read my first post Bob . If you can afford private health care than go for it . The country needs doctors .The ones who can't afford to pay the tuition cost could sign up for 7 years with the goverment and get the education paid for . The other doc's could and can charge every cent they can if they pay their own way . 



Its so simple a cave man could do it !!!!


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## Melensdad

mak2 said:


> Most expensive, 17th life expectancy.  Yep you are right.



Serious question, what the hell does life expectancy have to do with it?  Can you provide a cause/effect relationship backed up by any scientific study that shows that relationship?

Life expectancy is related to lifestyle choices (high fat diets, cigarette use), is lowered by homicide rates, etc.

I know for fact that the W.H.O. does not factor those out so clearly the issue of "life expectancy" is nothing but a red herring issue.  If you disagree and can show studies to the contrary then please do.  Otherwise tossing out the bullcrap of 'life expectancy' in the context of medicine is nothing more than bullcrap, and probably a lot worse than that.


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## mak2

Melensdad said:


> Serious question, what the hell does life expectancy have to do with it?  Can you provide a cause/effect relationship backed up by any scientific study that shows that relationship?
> 
> Life expectancy is related to lifestyle choices (high fat diets, cigarette use), is lowered by homicide rates, etc.
> 
> I know for fact that the W.H.O. does not factor those out so clearly the issue of "life expectancy" is nothing but a red herring issue.  If you disagree and can show studies to the contrary then please do.  Otherwise tossing out the bullcrap of 'life expectancy' in the context of medicine is nothing more than bullcrap, and probably a lot worse than that.



One big focus of UHC is preventative care, which addresses things like high fat diets etc.  I did hear Rush several weeks ago talking about how the diet makes no difference, live till ya die, yada. He is such a corporate shill.  Numbers are a problem for you guys aren't they?  But pick another indicator of health of a country, how bout infant mortality?


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## Melensdad

So a loudmouth talk show host is your substitute for factual information?

Seriously I expected more from you.  

Please answer the question, its serious and it shows, unless you can prove otherwise, that your statements are totally bogus and unrelated.


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## mak2

Melensdad said:


> So a loudmouth talk show host is your substitute for factual information?
> 
> Seriously I expected more from you.
> 
> Please answer the question, its serious and it shows, unless you can prove otherwise, that your statements are totally bogus and unrelated.



Wait a minute, I am the one who has been drinking and your post makes no sense.  Any important measure shows UHC is more effective than our system.  We are 50th in life expectancy and 1st in cost.  Then you start babbling about how those hard numbers dont count and I am suppose to come up with more.  You come up with numbers if you say mine are wrong. Your statements are bogus and meaningless.


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## Melensdad

And your drinking has clouded your mind.

COST has almost nothing to do with LIFE EXPECTANCY.


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## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

BigAl said:


> Read my first post Bob . If you can afford private health care than go for it .



Can I opt out of paying the taxes to support everyone else that can't save money, work, or be self sufficient? 

It's the same for education.  If you want your kid to get a better education than what the public schools provide you can pay for private school but you still have to pay the taxes for the public school (that you aren't using).


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## mak2

UHC does.  It is more effienct and a better system.  Are you really trying to say medical care has nothing to do with life expectacy?  Those IPA's are wearing off and you are making even less sense.


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## mak2

You are right big Al, this country ought to be able to come up with some form of effienct health care for all.  And we could, but the insurance companies would lose profits and they fund the politicans.  So we are screwed a couple of different ways.  I still dont understand why the RWers are agianst UHC.


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## jimbo

Why don't we send the illegals packing?  The unemployment problem is solved, and I don't really give crap whether Americans want these jobs or not. No workee, no eatee. Health care costs go down since government and the medical services providers no longer have to care for them for free.  More taxes are paid, school costs go down, less crime. 

Then cut the government regulation so that insurance companies are forced to compete.  There are only a very few insurance companies authorized to sell in California, I've heard 6, but I have not verified.  There are around 6,000 health insurance companies in the country.

I don't buy the argument that it is too late to get the illegals out.  You don't have to round up 10 million, only a few thousand in a manner that makes it stick.  We are supposed to have the greatest fingerprint system in the world, and somehow we cannot determine whether the illegals are repeat offenders, criminals, or whatever.  2nd offense and you are sent to Sheriff Joe's prison for rehab.  If we make it rough enough on a few, the rest will follow.


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## Melensdad

mak2 said:


> Are you really trying to say medical care has nothing to do with life expectacy?


Read what is written not what you think is written.

The question was posed to you and is still unanswered.


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## BigAl RIP

Well , I still think we (The people) need to take a hard look at other countries and what thay are doing , instead of believing what our politicians and Insurance Companys tell us to believe .Sheeple?????

  How many other than a couple of you have ever really  tested the other social medicine that other countries offer or are you so blinded with hate for Michael Moore that you could never agree he may be right .


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## pirate_girl

BigAl said:


> OK ... PG's post the other day about her medical bills got me to thinkin ......again . ...  Maybe that is not good
> 
> 
> . Anyway>>>>>Just what is so bad about social medicine ??? PG paid cash and had to take a hard hit  on paying other things . Why in the hell can't we have social medicine for those who can't pay and the option of private health care for those who can and want the  the bullshit prices , insurance companys charge for monthly premiums ????



My insurance covered me very well for the hospital bills Al, except for one ER bill.
It was the individual physicians,radiology and anesthesiology bills that drove me into the ground for a while.
Come to find out, on some of those bills other things were tagged on along the way.. and I don't recall seeing those people in the room with me at all at the time or receiving the services mentioned on the bills.
I even got duplicate billings AFTER I had thought I already had the %^&*() paid off.

The system is never going to be perfect. Too many twists and turns and sly shit going on IMO.

Nursing/being in the medical field is my bread and butter.
That said I don't have a whole lot of respect for how any of it operates.


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## BigAl RIP

pirate_girl said:


> My insurance covered me very well for the hospital bills Al, except for one ER bill.
> It was the individual physicians,radiology and anesthesiology bills that drove me into the ground for a while.
> Come to find out, on some of those bills other things were tagged on along the way.. and I don't recall seeing those people in the room with me at all at the time or receiving the services mentioned on the bills.
> I even got duplicate billings AFTER I had thought I already had the %^&*() paid off.
> 
> The system is never going to be perfect. Too many twists and turns and sly shit going on IMO.
> 
> Nursing/being in the medical field is my bread and butter.
> *That said I don't have a whole lot of respect for how any of it operates.*


 

 I hear ya , girl !!!!

Just seems like ther should be a better way . As a kid I don't ever remember my folks discussing health care cost  and we were pretty damn poor .

    Now a days thats all I ever hear about ???????????


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## BigAl RIP

Melensdad said:


> *And your drinking has clouded your mind.*
> 
> COST has almost nothing to do with LIFE EXPECTANCY.


 

 Wow ! That was mean .... You own Cigar shops and we never said you caused cancer 

I could not resist .... I been drinking ......


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## pirate_girl

BigAl said:


> I hear ya , girl !!!!
> 
> *Just seems like ther should be a better way . As a kid I don't ever remember my folks discussing health care cost  and we were pretty damn poor .*
> 
> Now a days thats all I ever hear about ???????????



Maybe they paid the doctors with potatoes and carrots and you didn't know about it.
Maybe things were different back then.
Oh wait... silly me.. they were.
Welcome to 2011.


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## REDDOGTWO

I would be happy to pay the doctor with potatoes and carrots, I would even throw in a few cucumbers.

One of the reasons is that our medical system is so expensive, is CYA, tests are ordered to cover the doctor's butt, even if they are not needed, just in case. The lawsuit happy country has the malpractice insurance out of this world.


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## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

REDDOGTWO said:


> One of the reasons is that our medical system is so expensive, is CYA, tests are ordered to cover the doctor's butt, even if they are not needed, just in case. The lawsuit happy country has the malpractice insurance out of this world.



Exactly!  The second time I had to go to the hospital I was really firm about minimizing the costs and would refuse tests.  It was still expensive.

I think they need to do away with all the "extra" billing.  Those extra charges are crazy and clearly meant to circumvent the fact that insurance is not willing to pay out what the real costs are.


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## mak2

Melensdad said:


> Read what is written not what you think is written.
> 
> The question was posed to you and is still unanswered.



Cost doesnt matter but availability does.  With UHC there is more medical care available at less cost.  That does effect life expectancy.


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## Melensdad

mak2 said:


> Cost doesnt matter but availability does.  With UHC there is more medical care available at less cost.  That does effect life expectancy.



But you *specifically* were related cost to life expectancy here in the *USA* where there is easy access and availability.

You have failed to show any cause/effect here.  You have failed to make any realistic correlation between cost and life expectancy.  Seriously, your whole concept of using the life expectancy vs cost argument is spurious at best and certainly not based on fact in this nation.


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## mak2

Come on Bob, you can come up with a better argument than that.  In a country without UHC cost adversely effects availabilty to a large number of people.  Decrease availabiltiy of medical care decreases life expectancy.


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## SShepherd

Melensdad said:


> But you *specifically* were related cost to life expectancy here in the *USA* where there is easy access and availability.
> 
> You have failed to show any cause/effect here. You have failed to make any realistic correlation between cost and life expectancy. Seriously, your whole concept of using the life expectancy vs cost argument is spurious at best and certainly not based on fact in this nation.


 

you're not going to get one either. He'd rather dodge, weave, misdirect and derail than answer your question directly.


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## EastTexFrank

mak2 said:


> With UHC there is more medical care available at less cost.



I promised myself that I wouldn't get involved in another health care debate but I couldn't let the above pass without comment.

Mak, what you said above is totally and absolutely wrong.  It is one of the fallacies (lies) associated with the justification for UHC.  

Take that from one who has a great deal of experience in the British National Health System.


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## mak2

EastTexFrank said:


> I promised myself that I wouldn't get involved in another health care debate but I couldn't let the above pass without comment.
> 
> Mak, what you said above is totally and absolutely wrong.  It is one of the fallacies (lies) associated the justification for UHC.
> 
> Take that from one who has a great deal of experience in the British National Health system.



Cost limits availablity of medical care under our system.  Limitation of medical care decreases life expectancy.  UHC makes healthcare available at less cost to more citizens.  We have the most expensive healthcare system in the world with very few firsts in care.  What did I dodge?


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## mak2

EastTexFrank said:


> I promised myself that I wouldn't get involved in another health care debate but I couldn't let the above pass without comment.
> 
> Mak, what you said above is totally and absolutely wrong.  It is one of the fallacies (lies) associated with the justification for UHC.
> 
> Take that from one who has a great deal of experience in the British National Health System.



I quoted you above and I meant to quote Melensdad, sorry.  When you make statements about entire systems, you need more than anecdotal evidence.  I appreciate the fact you have had bad experience with some form of UHC, but the health of a health care system is compiled from large numbers of cases.  My Mom hates the nicest hospital in Indy because one night they did not answer her call light for hours, It still gets great ratings etc, but my Mom still tells people how bad it is.


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## NorthernRedneck

Call me stupid or whatever.  I agree with Big Al's original post in this thread.  I stayed out of the debate section for the past year or so of my own choice since I couldn't stand the one sided thinking this board seems to have.  Now onto the question at hand...

I resubcribed to the debate section today just to come in and make my point on this.  I was gonna start a thread on the same subject but I see there's already one going.  What got me thinking is PG's situation but what got me even more is what Dargo has been going through.  Now, I might be wrong here but I consider Dargo to be well off and if he's posting that 





> I've already surpassed my family maximum out of pocket this year! I'm certainly feeling the pain of medical bills.


(taken right from his thread in his own words), just how in the Hell is a typical single parent working average hours for average pay barely able to survive as it is going to be able to afford the good ole USA Health care system.  Am I saying that the canadian system is perfect?  NO!  But at least I don't have to declare bankruptsy for going to the hospital for a papercut because I can't afford the $20,000 price tag they stick onto a bandaid.(I'm being sarcastic but you get the point I'm sure)


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## mak2

I got hit for about 50k the last year or so.  Average people could not survive that financially.  Mainly I just argue performance with numbers and stuff.  Drives em crazy.


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## NorthernRedneck

mak2 said:


> *I got hit for about 50k the last year or so.  Average people could not survive that financially.*  Mainly I just argue performance with numbers and stuff.  Drives em crazy.



My point exactly!


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## EastTexFrank

mak2 said:


> When you make statements about entire systems, you need more than anecdotal evidence.  I appreciate the fact you have had bad experience with some form of UHC, but the health of a health care system is compiled from large numbers of cases.  My Mom hates the nicest hospital in Indy because one night they did not answer her call light for hours, It still gets great ratings etc, but my Mom still tells people how bad it is.



Mak, read closely.  There was no anecdotal evidence in the statement that I made but to justify your point you quote "anecdotal evidence".  Get out of here. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a wholehearted fan of the American system either but the shortcomings of the American system won't be addressed by adopting UHC.  People will expect to have the facilities, care and attention that they have available now at vastly reduced or little cost.  Ain't goin' to happen.


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## mak2

EastTexFrank said:


> Mak, read closely.  There was no anecdotal evidence in the statement that I made but to justify your point you quote "anecdotal evidence".  Get out of here.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not a wholehearted fan of the American system either but the shortcomings of the American system won't be addressed by adopting UHC.  People will expect to have the facilities, care and attention that they have available now at vastly reduced or little cost.  Ain't goin' to happen.



"Take that from one who has a great deal of experience in the British National Health System."

Sorry that made me think you were refering to your on experience.


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## EastTexFrank

mak2 said:


> "Take that from one who has a great deal of experience in the British National Health System."
> 
> Sorry that made me think you were refering to your on experience.



That is a statement of fact not anecdotal evidence.


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## mak2

EastTexFrank said:


> That is a statement of fact not anecdotal evidence.



Anecdotal evidence is an informal account of evidence in the form of an anecdote. The term is often used in contrast to scientific evidence, as evidence that cannot be investigated using the scientific method. The problem with arguing based on anecdotal evidence is that anecdotal evidence is not necessarily typical; only statistical evidence can determine how typical something is. Misuse of anecdotal is a *logical fallacy.*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdote


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## Av8r3400

Mak you keep quoting some poll or statistic stating that the US is 17th or 50th in healthcare quality.

1.)  Who is #1?  Why?

2.)  What is your source for this?


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## mak2

CIA for life expectancy.


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## Av8r3400

Please cite the CIA poll or study.  This give an average age at death or what?  You are being very vague here.  (as usual)


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## mak2

Look up CIA and life expectancy.  I am not doing stupid human tricks this time.  All my help has been banned.


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## Av8r3400

Why the f*** should I prove or disprove your socialist argument for you?

If you can't or won't provide facts or proof, this is just as it appears:  _*BULLSHIT*_.



Done.


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## mak2

Av8r3400 said:


> Why the f*** should I prove or disprove your socialist argument for you?
> 
> If you can't or won't provide facts or proof, this is just as it appears:  _*BULLSHIT*_.
> 
> 
> 
> Done.



That is intelligent.  You tell me I am wrong but got nothing to back it up.  Talk about bullshit.


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## joec

Just curious on this so here is a question. What is the average insurance costs in this group? Mine are nothing since I can't get insurance but my wife's medical bills for the last 4 years pushed mid 5 figures in cash out of my pocket. Now if my taxes went up 20% that would be a deal since I already pay about 13% for medicare which neither of will get for at least another year in my case and 2 in my wife's case.


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## Av8r3400

mak2 said:


> That is intelligent.  You tell me I am wrong but got nothing to back it up.  Talk about bullshit.



What do I have to back up?  I asked you a question and as usual you don't answer or provide anything but your typical elitist, "better than" attitude.

I told you before, this may work in your class room, but I am not an easily bullied child.


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## NorthernRedneck

Av8r3400 said:


> Please cite the CIA poll or study.  This give an average age at death or what?  You are being very vague here.  (as usual)



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

Note...if you're looking for the USA, you'll have to scroll down to #36 right between Cuba and Portugal.  Also note where Canada is listed.  I have seen on this board time and time again everyone shooting down the Canadian health care system.  My question is this:  If the Canadian Health Care System is so terrible and the US Health care system is so much more superior, then why do Canadians live longer then Americans on average judging by that chart in the above link?


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## mak2

Av8r3400 said:


> Please cite the CIA poll or study.  This give an average age at death or what?  You are being very vague here.  (as usual)





Av8r3400 said:


> Why the f*** should I prove or disprove your socialist argument for you?
> 
> If you can't or won't provide facts or proof, this is just as it appears:  _*BULLSHIT*_.
> 
> 
> 
> Done.





Av8r3400 said:


> What do I have to back up?  I asked you a question and as usual you don't answer or provide anything but your typical elitist, "better than" attitude.
> 
> I told you before, this may work in your class room, but I am not an easily bullied child.



I told you the US was 50th.  I told you I got that info from the CIA.  nothing about that is vauge.   I dont expect you to make my argument, you cant seem to make your own.  IF you want to know who is first look it up, I told you where.  Bullied, child, goodness you cant even discuss a topic without feeling like a bullied victim.  Children can do better than that.


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## EastTexFrank

mak2 said:


> Anecdotal evidence is an informal account of evidence in the form of an anecdote. The term is often used in contrast to scientific evidence, as evidence that cannot be investigated using the scientific method. The problem with arguing based on anecdotal evidence is that anecdotal evidence is not necessarily typical; only statistical evidence can determine how typical something is. Misuse of anecdotal is a *logical fallacy.*
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdote



Mak, are you still drinking and vacuuming out your basement?

I am perfectly aware of the definition of anecdotal evidence and you're still twisting the truth to suit your own ends and ignoring points that you can't answer, explain or justify.

I'm out of here.  Any further replies will be wasted time and effort on your part.


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## Av8r3400

> I told you the US was 50th. I told you I got that info from the CIA. nothing about that is vauge. I dont expect you to make my argument, you cant seem to make your own. IF you want to know who is first look it up, I told you where. Bullied, child, goodness you cant even discuss a topic without feeling like a bullied victim. Children can do better than that.


I can say that Jesus Christ just called my cell phone and told me different, with just as much credibility.

If you can't provide a scientific source for this information (with some semblance of credibility, unlike wiki) it is only an opinion and will be treated as such.

As to your last sentence, you make my point for me.

Frank is right.  This thread is going to go nowhere.


----------



## mak2

EastTexFrank said:


> I promised myself that I wouldn't get involved in another health care debate but I couldn't let the above pass without comment.
> 
> *Mak, what you said above is totally and absolutely wrong.  It is one of the fallacies (lies) associated with the justification for UHC.  *Take that from one who has a great deal of experience in the British National Health System.



Do you have any sort of evidence besides your personal experience?  If you do and site it I would be glad to listen.  This is how these healthcare arguments always go.  What you state above is anecdotal evidence.


----------



## mak2

Av8r3400 said:


> I can say that Jesus Christ just called my cell phone and told me different, with just as much credibility.
> 
> If you can't provide a scientific source for this information (with some semblance of credibility, unlike wiki) it is only an opinion and will be treated as such.
> 
> As to your last sentence, you make my point for me.
> 
> Frank is right.  This thread is going to go nowhere.



Look it up.  CIA aint Wiki, I used that for a definition becuase it was simple.  Thought it woudl be eaiser to understand, guess I was wrong.


----------



## mak2

OK just for a review.  

THe US has the most expensive healthcare in  the world (except for Guam, I think), we are 50th in life expectancy.  Cost does not effect life expectancy directly, but the cost of care rations that care only to those that can afford it, thereby reducing the life expectancy of the population as a whole.  any questions?


----------



## REDDOGTWO

groomerguyNWO said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
> 
> Note...if you're looking for the USA, you'll have to scroll down to #36 right between Cuba and Portugal.  Also note where Canada is listed.  I have seen on this board time and time again everyone shooting down the Canadian health care system.  My question is this:  If the Canadian Health Care System is so terrible and the US Health care system is so much more superior, then why do Canadians live longer then Americans on average judging by that chart in the above link?



The reason that Canadians live longer is due to the cold weather, slows down the metabolism.


----------



## RedRocker

You do NOT want the federal government involved in anything, much less 
our health care.


----------



## Doc

Al's first post proposed the best solution I have seen on this topic.  UHC is a dream.  Obamacare does not appear to be the answer.
Al's answer was that all those without insurance be treated at the hundreds of VA centers around the country.  We beef up the VA centers by helping educate more doctors and for that help require them to spend 5, 7 or x number of years in service at these centers.  Once their service is done they can move on to private practice or whatever they want.

All this seems so workable and a much better solution than the 2000 page Obamacare solution.  It gives coverage to those without health insurance and leaves the rest of us as we are.   What is wrong with this idea?   No one has really addressed this idea that I have seen.


----------



## Cowboy

Doc said:


> Al's first post proposed the best solution I have seen on this topic. UHC is a dream. Obamacare does not appear to be the answer.
> Al's answer was that all those without insurance be treated at the hundreds of VA centers around the country. We beef up the VA centers by helping educate more doctors and for that help require them to spend 5, 7 or x number of years in service at these centers. Once their service is done they can move on to private practice or whatever they want.
> 
> All this seem so workable and a much better solution than the 2000 page Obamacare solution. It gives coverage to those without health insurance and leaves the rest of us as we are. What is wrong with this idea? No one has really addressed this idea that I have seen.


 

That says it all IMHO .


----------



## mak2

I dont understand how you can say UHC is a dream, in the rest of the civilized world it is a reality that is much more effective system than we have.


----------



## RedRocker

mak2 said:


> I dont understand how you can say UHC is a dream, in the rest of the civilized world it is a reality that is much more effective system than we have.



Wrong.


----------



## mak2

RedRocker said:


> Wrong.



Reference?


----------



## SShepherd

mak2 said:


> . IF you want to know ---- look it up, I told you where. Bullied, child, goodness you cant even discuss a topic without feeling like a bullied victim. Children can do better than that.


 
hmm


----------



## mak2

Great, the think tank is here.


----------



## SShepherd

mak2 said:


> Great, the think tank is here.


 if you can't handle being held to the same standards you expect from everyone else, you're being a hypocrite


----------



## jpr62902

mak2 said:


> I dont understand how you can say UHC is a dream, in the rest of the civilized world it is a reality that is much more effective system than we have.


 
There are a bunch of ways to look at this issue.  Collectively, one might stastically have a chance to live a few years longer in a UHC system.  But individually, if a person gets sick, their odds of beating that illness seem to be better in the USA, assuming they have some form of health insurance coverage or are very wealthy.

What does that mean?

Melensdad pointed out that there are a whole host of factors when evaluating life expectancy.  Undeniably, one of the important ones is the quality of healthcare to which people have access.

Infant mortality was another cited statistic.  I'd like to see what the infant mortality rates are for, say, 30 week old infants born in the US versus the rest of the world.  What is the earliest viability age?  22 weeks?  I honestly don't know.


----------



## BigAl RIP

RedRocker said:


> Wrong.


Please explain how you arrived at that answer Red ????? I have seen and used the other Country Medical systems and was very impressed . Am I missing something . Are we so afaid of the unknown that we will not even try to see if we can make it work ? 

Does anyone besides me know that England recognized Cuba as one of the leading Cancer research countries in the world .... They are light years ahead of us . 



Just look it up if you care not to believe me . The U.S. and Cuba are not on the best of terms so your local goverment will never tell you that a 3rd world country is kicking our ass on curing cancer .


----------



## jpr62902

BigAl said:


> Please explain how you arrived at that answer Red ????? I have seen and used the other Country Medical systems and was very impressed . Am I missing something . Are we so afaid of the unknown that we will not even try to see if we can make it work ?
> 
> Does anyone besides me know that England recognized Cuba as one of the leading Cancer research countries in the world .... They are light years ahead of us .
> 
> 
> 
> Just look it up if you care not to believe me . The U.S. and Cuba are not on the best of terms so your local goverment will never tell you that a 3rd world country is kicking our ass on curing cancer .


 
Al, I'd like to see that data, as it's quite contrary to what my understanding is:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1560849/UK-cancer-survival-rate-lowest-in-Europe.html


----------



## SShepherd

John Stossel did a pretty good series on cuban healthcare a while ago, it's worth watching
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6ZH1ps20WA"]YouTube        - John Stossel questions Michael Moore on Cuban Health Care[/ame]

He also did another

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ab8cDxLNRkE"]YouTube        - John Stossel & 20/20 Take On Health Care Reform - President Obama's Proposed Health Care[/ame]


----------



## RedRocker

Post office, Amtrak, Departments of Energy, Education, Medicare, Medicade, Social Security, need I go on? My beef isn't that there isn't a better way, the way we did it in the fifties was better than what we do now. Can you guess what changed? The frikken government stuck it's nose in our business. The frikken government set up the rules that stifle competition between insurance companies. There's more, but you get the point. We don't need our dumb ass government screwing with our health care, we need them out of the way so the free market can work.


----------



## BigAl RIP

jpr62902 said:


> Al, I'd like to see that data, as it's quite contrary to what my understanding is:
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1560849/UK-cancer-survival-rate-lowest-in-Europe.html


 

 It was a few years ago but I still remember it .


----------



## NorthernRedneck

BigAl said:


> Please explain how you arrived at that answer Red ????? I have seen and used the other Country Medical systems and was very impressed . Am I missing something . Are we so afraid of the unknown that we will not even try to see if we can make it work ?
> 
> Does anyone besides me know that England recognized Cuba as one of the leading Cancer research countries in the world .... They are light years ahead of us .
> 
> 
> 
> Just look it up if you care not to believe me . The U.S. and Cuba are not on the best of terms so your local goverment will never tell you that a 3rd world country is kicking our ass on curing cancer .



I wonder how things like dental care are in places like Cuba?  The reason I ask is my parents are down in Texas right now.  Dad was planning on getting a bunch of dental work done while down there.  He got a quote of roughly $10,000 up here to get the work done.  He saw a dentist in Texas and the price was $15,000.  He walked across the border into Mexico and got it done for $2000.  That's for a complete set of upper implants.  Quite the difference.  He said the work was good that he got done there.  He also mentioned how there's allot of americans crossing the boarder to get their dental work done.  Gotta be a reason for that.  And from what I understand, the US government isn't involved in the business of dental care so why is it so damn expensive.  I could be wrong on that.


----------



## jpr62902

groomerguyNWO said:


> I wonder how things like dental care are in places like Cuba? The reason I ask is my parents are down in Texas right now. Dad was planning on getting a bunch of dental work done while down there. He got a quote of roughly $10,000 up here to get the work done. He saw a dentist in Texas and the price was $15,000. He walked across the border into Mexico and got it done for $2000. That's for a complete set of upper implants. Quite the difference. He said the work was good that he got done there. He also mentioned how there's allot of americans crossing the boarder to get their dental work done. Gotta be a reason for that. And from what I understand, the US government isn't involved in the business of dental care so why is it so damn expensive. I could be wrong on that.


 
All kinds of things come to mind with your comments, GG.

How many dentists did he see in the US versus Mexico?  What is the quality of the work?  Was insurance involved?  In other words, there are lots of variables.


----------



## RedRocker

I would guess for the same reason medical care is. They have to carry liability insurance and put up with the same roadblocks doctors do. I'm not too sure the feds don't have their fingers in that business either with Medicare and all that, I'm not quite there yet.


----------



## thcri RIP

It is bad because of WHO is running it, making the laws for it, creating the Loop Holes and sharing the favoritism like this.  More union paybacks even after years of union members paying in and now getting freebies.


----------



## NorthernRedneck

jpr62902 said:


> All kinds of things come to mind with your comments, GG.
> 
> How many dentists did he see in the US versus Mexico?  What is the quality of the work?  Was insurance involved?  In other words, there are lots of variables.



He said he saw a couple different dentists in Texas and the price was around the same.  No insurance involved.  Dad's semi retired with no benefits package for dental right now.  He also saw a couple different dentists up here.  I agree that there are allot of variables.  Just find it odd that there's such a big difference in price.  He said he's very happy with the work he got done there.


----------



## RedRocker

It's no secret that just about everything is cheaper in Mexico, sometimes that works out OK and sometimes you get what you pay for. If something had gone wrong with your Dad's work, I'm guessing he'd have been SOL for any kind of recourse.


----------



## jpr62902

groomerguyNWO said:


> He said he saw a couple different dentists in Texas and the price was around the same. No insurance involved. Dad's semi retired with no benefits package for dental right now. He also saw a couple different dentists up here. I agree that there are allot of variables. Just find it odd that there's such a big difference in price. He said he's very happy with the work he got done there.


 
Good for him!


----------



## pirate_girl

groomerguyNWO said:


> just how in the Hell is a typical single parent working average hours for average pay barely able to survive as it is going to be able to afford the good ole USA Health care system.  Am I saying that the canadian system is perfect?  NO!  But at least I don't have to declare bankruptsy for going to the hospital for a papercut because I can't afford the $20,000 price tag they stick onto a bandaid.(I'm being sarcastic but you get the point I'm sure)



Very well said Brian.
Ya know, my thing with some of my insurance bills and all the crap that I'd been going through lately sure wasn't easy.
As I stated earlier in the thread.. my insurance took care of a LOT of the LARGER hospital bills very well.
I even posted a thread about how well they covered one bill a while back.
It's the physicians bills and the billings for tests that really hit hard in the pocket book.
Then you try to live your life and pay as you can, but sooner or later, you have to tell them "I am sorry, I don't have anything to send you this month".
My problems started when I began placing the smaller bills on the bottom of the monthly budget, then the collections snakes started coming after me.. yadda yadda..
Well, they got paid off.
It's not easy being single and trying to handle this stuff on your own.
I am ok now.

As for the UHC argument.. I l lived in England for 5 years under the NHS.. I've said it before.. never had a complaint about it other than sometimes having a longer wait than one would have in this country.
However, that system would never work in this country, in my opinion.


----------



## jpr62902

groomerguyNWO said:


> just how in the Hell is a typical single parent working average hours for average pay barely able to survive as it is going to be able to afford the good ole USA Health care system. Am I saying that the canadian system is perfect? NO! But at least I don't have to declare bankruptsy for going to the hospital for a papercut because I can't afford the $20,000 price tag they stick onto a bandaid.(I'm being sarcastic but you get the point I'm sure)


 


pirate_girl said:


> Very well said Brian.
> Ya know, my thing with some of my insurance bills and all the crap that I'd been going through lately sure wasn't easy.
> As I stated earlier in the thread.. my insurance took care of a LOT of the LARGER hospital bills very well.
> I even posted a thread about how well they covered one bill a while back.
> It's the physicians bills and the billings for tests that really hit hard in the pocket book.
> Then you try to live your life and pay as you can, but sooner or later, you have to tell them "I am sorry, I don't have anything to send you this month".
> My problems started when I began placing the smaller bills on the bottom of the monthly budget, then the collections snakes started coming after me.. yadda yadda..
> Well, they got paid off.
> It's not easy being single and trying to handle this stuff on your own.
> I am ok now.
> 
> As for the UHC argument.. I l lived in England for 5 years under the NHS.. I've said it before.. never had a complaint about it other than sometimes having a longer wait than one would have in this country.
> However, that system would never work in this country, in my opinion.


 
I disagree.  I think GG's comment is bullshit and hyperbole.

His comment actually highlights one of the biggest problems with US healthcare cost.  Over utilization and inefficiency.  Clinic visits for every ache and malaise.  ER visits for problems that are not emergencies.

Exaggeration is not persuasive.


----------



## pirate_girl

jpr62902 said:


> I disagree.  I think GG's comment is bullshit and hyperbole.
> 
> His comment actually highlights one of the biggest problems with US healthcare cost.  Over utilization and inefficiency.  Clinic visits for every ache and malaise.  ER visits for problems that are not emergencies.
> 
> Exaggeration is not persuasive.



I was talking to Brian, not you... but feel free to explain yourself in what you are getting at..
Please.. by all means..


----------



## jpr62902

pirate_girl said:


> I was talking to Brian, not you... but feel free to explain yourself in what you are getting at..
> Please.. by all means..


 
Lollie, a post in a forum is a comment to everyone.  You agree with GG's comment.  I don't.  I thought the rest of my comments were self explanatory.  What do I need to clarify?


----------



## pirate_girl

jpr62902 said:


> Lollie, a post in a forum is a comment to everyone.  You agree with GG's comment.  I don't.  I thought the rest of my comments were self explanatory.  What do I need to clarify?


I guess you don't Jim.
Carry on.
Sorry.


----------



## SShepherd

I guess I always thought an ER was for stuff that either yer too stubborn to pass out, or an ambulance dropps you off at.
I never realized that the ER was full of people coughing, or with splinters--but they are.


----------



## mak2

THE problem with ER in US is there are no clinics people can go to withoiut insurnace.  No insurance, no money you dont go to the clinic with a cold, you wait till it is pneumonia and then go to the ER.  Not much profit in clinics.  Wonderful ststem.


----------



## mak2

jpr62902 said:


> I disagree.  I think GG's comment is bullshit and hyperbole.
> 
> His comment actually highlights one of the biggest problems with US healthcare cost.  Over utilization and inefficiency.  Clinic visits for every ache and malaise.  ER visits for problems that are not emergencies.
> 
> Exaggeration is not persuasive.



The biggest problem with our system is it is set up for profit not healthcare.  Bullshit and hyperbole is not a well thought out response for a big time attorney like yourself.  ER are overutilized because there are no clinics for poor people.  You are not persuasive.  Be nice to GG, you guys have ran everyone else off that disagrees with you about healthcare or anything else.  Cept me, be nice.


----------



## RedRocker

The ER in my town of about 60,000 is usually full of snotty nosed illegal aliens.
One of the reasons our health care is so expensive is lawsuits, Doc's have to cover their asses so they order every test they can. On top of that they have to pay enormous insurance premiums. When I was a kid you paid the doc for office visits and bought insurance for the catastrophic stuff, all of it was reasonable because the Feds were NOT involved in any of it.  Tort reform and get congress out of our business and you'll be able to afford the insurance.


----------



## mak2

RedRocker said:


> The ER in my town of about 60,000 is usually full of snotty nosed illegal aliens.
> One of the reasons our health care is so expensive is lawsuits, Doc's have to cover their asses so they order every test they can. On top of that they have to pay enormous insurance premiums. When I was a kid you paid the doc for office visits and bought insurance for the catastrophic stuff, all of it was reasonable because the Feds were NOT involved in any of it.  Tort reform and get congress out of our business and you'll be able to afford the insurance.



Glad someone is awake.  Morning Red.  Actually legal concerns is a very small part of why our medical system is so expensive.  The real porblem lies in the perpetual pursuit of profit.  I think I mentioned a while back a buddy of mines dad was a Private practice doctor outside of Altoona.  He made a lot of pay in chickens and milk and stuff.  Doctors had been getting paid like that for years.  The first modern health caer policies came about in the 1920's or early thirties.  And they were a great idea, doctors were getting paid in eggs for services people had to have.  Silly really. docotor were selling a service that people had to have and not getting a reasonable living out of it.  Ironically a group of teachers and a hospital ( I cant remember which one) developed a synergistic contract that woudl and did help both.   Instead of having to get paid while a patient was in the hospital or sick and out of a job or what ever the insurance companies started taking out money every week or month and paying the bills when the patient needed the company to.  Well a synergistic relationship has evolved over the years that profits both the insurance industry and healthcare industry.  Now the industry can charge about what it wants, bill the insurance company, the insurance company pays some, bill the insured for the rest, and raises premiums the next year.  If there was a clinic for those snotty nosed illegals to go to it would cost you much less, but there would be much less of a profit.  

Anyway, this system kinda works like thermal runaway with resistors.  When a conductor gets hot it increases resistance and when increased resistance increases heat.  Pretty soon the dang thing burns up.  Exactly what has happened wiht our healthcare system.


----------



## NorthernRedneck

jpr62902 said:


> *I disagree.  I think GG's comment is bullshit and hyperbole.*
> 
> His comment actually highlights one of the biggest problems with US healthcare cost.  Over utilization and inefficiency.  Clinic visits for every ache and malaise.  ER visits for problems that are not emergencies.
> 
> Exaggeration is not persuasive.



Um....I guess a member here isn't allowed to have their own opinion then even if its different then the majority without it being torn apart to be something its not.  

I 'll just back down and agree with you that the USA is the best at everything....best health care, best military, best politicians, best at everything.  Everything I've seen in the debate section of the forum is a bunch of yankees standing there with there chests stuck out saying Hurrah  Hurrah!!  I'm better then you are....

And people wonder why americans have such a bad rep all around the world....sheesh!!!

You won't be seeing me back here for anything other then the snowcat section for a while.


----------



## mak2

groomerguyNWO said:


> Um....I guess a member here isn't allowed to have their own opinion then even if its different then the majority without it being torn apart to be something its not.
> 
> I 'll just back down and agree with you that the USA is the best at everything....best health care, best military, best politicians, best at everything.  Everything I've seen in the debate section of the forum is a bunch of yankees standing there with there chests stuck out saying Hurrah  Hurrah!!  I'm better then you are....
> 
> And people wonder why americans have such a bad rep all around the world....sheesh!!!
> 
> You won't be seeing me back here for anything other then the snowcat section for a while.




Hate to see you go but I knew it would happen.


----------



## RedRocker

Gotta have thick skin GG, it's the interweb, stand up for what you believe.


----------



## mak2

I was looking back thru old posts for a refererence for use on another fourm.  It is amazing how many people who used to hang around here that disagreed about much of anything are banned.  Yet, if you are far to the RW pretty much any bahavior is tolerated.  Just sayin.  By the way, if I never come back.....................


----------



## Cowboy

mak2 said:


> THE problem with ER in US is there are no clinics people can go to withoiut insurnace. No insurance, no money you dont go to the clinic with a cold, you wait till it is pneumonia and then go to the ER. Not much profit in clinics. Wonderful ststem.


 

Not true Mak . There are several immediate care facilitys all over the US , Much cheaper,faster and more personal care then any ER . They also except most types of insurance or cash . In my familys experience ( Not my own ) after the first few visits they will also set you up on a payment plan . 

http://www.wichitaclinic.com/Specialties_and_Services/Other_Services/Immediate_Care/index.php

According to my wife you wont find the welfare types at these places because its easier for them to flood the ER's for their snotty noses & free drugs because they never had any intention to pay anyway . 

The problem is not with our healthcare system IMHO in most cases its the freeloaders abusing it that makes it so damn expensive for everyone else .


----------



## mak2

Cowboy said:


> Not true Mak . There are several immediate care facilitys all over the US , Much cheaper,faster and more personal care then any ER . They also except most types of insurance or cash . In my familys experience ( Not my own ) after the first few visits they will also set you up on a payment plan .
> 
> http://www.wichitaclinic.com/Specialties_and_Services/Other_Services/Immediate_Care/index.php
> 
> According to my wife you wont find the welfare types at these places because its easier for them to flood the ER's for their snotty noses & free drugs because they never had any intention to pay anyway .
> 
> The problem is not with our healthcare system IMHO in most cases its the freeloaders abusing it that makes it so damn expensive for everyone else .



Thanks Cowboy.  If what you say is true why cant the ER triage them to the convient clinic?


----------



## mak2

Financial arrangements
*Prior to seeking treatment *with Wichita Clinic, PA we suggest you discuss coverage with your employer and/or private insurance carrier in order to confirm coverage and to determine if your insurance is accepted by Wichita Clinic, PA.  Please note that you are responsible for all charges not paid by insurance.  Wichita Clinic, PA accepts personal checks and most major credit cards (Wichita Clinic Clinicare Card, Discover, Visa, & MasterCard). If you are unable to pay your balance due at one time, Wichita Clinic, PA will set up a payment plan for you. Contact the Patient Accounts department at 1-800-231-0436 for more details.


----------



## Cowboy

mak2 said:


> Thanks Cowboy. If what you say is true why cant the ER triage them to the convient clinic?


 I dont guess I understand the question Mak . I have no experience with the ER other then when I went to see someone that was taken there from an accident so I have no clue how they handle things . 

  Why would an ER triage (whatever that means) to another facility that otherwise runs so efficiently ?


----------



## Cowboy

mak2 said:


> Financial arrangements
> *Prior to seeking treatment *with Wichita Clinic, PA we suggest you discuss coverage with your employer and/or private insurance carrier in order to confirm coverage and to determine if your insurance is accepted by Wichita Clinic, PA. Please note that you are responsible for all charges not paid by insurance. Wichita Clinic, PA accepts personal checks and most major credit cards (Wichita Clinic Clinicare Card, Discover, Visa, & MasterCard). If you are unable to pay your balance due at one time, Wichita Clinic, PA will set up a payment plan for you. Contact the Patient Accounts department at 1-800-231-0436 for more details.


 

And your point is ?    Its perty much common sense to me to expect to pay somehow for any treatment you would receive . When my wife has to go I make sure she has plenty of cash in case insurance wont cover it , I beleive in pay as you go unlike our government .


----------



## mak2

When I am triaging in an ER and a patient comes in with something that can be handled by his primary care provider, I can tell them to go to see him.  The people you see in ER either have to wait till they have pneumonia to be legitimate ER patients or come in with sniffles and see if the ER will write them a script for a Z pack or something.  If there were clinics these people could go to instead of the $1000's of dollars we all end up paying for the ER visit, the clinic visit would be much less and tehy would be gone.  That is why you little clinic pays up front.


----------



## Av8r3400

In my view, in the simplest terms, this is all about people that "feel" that *healthcare* is a right they should get for free, rather than a responsibility that they hold for themselves and their family.

I am on one side of this argument, some are on the other.


----------



## Cowboy

mak2 said:


> When I am triaging in an ER and a patient comes in with something that can be handled by his primary care provider, I can tell them to go to see him. The people you see in ER either have to wait till they have pneumonia to be legitimate ER patients or come in with sniffles and see if the ER will write them a script for a Z pack or something. If there were clinics these people could go to instead of the $1000's of dollars we all end up paying for the ER visit, the clinic visit would be much less and tehy would be gone. That is why you little clinic pays up front.


 Ok I think I got Ya Mak . I guess what I dont understand is you seem to say there are no clinics of this type but there are . What am I missing . FYI there are also a few FREE clinics in Wichita as well . 

 Personally I see no problem with the way healthcare seems to work , I just dont beleive in it for myself but I have no complaints of how my Wifes health is handled by her docter, it just took awhile to find one we trust .


----------



## mak2

Av8r3400 said:


> In my view, in the simplest terms, this is all about people that "feel" that *healthcare* is a right they should get for free, rather than a responsibility that they hold for themselves and their family.
> 
> I am on one side of this argument, some are on the other.



I have never argued it is a right.  I also never say "feel".  It is not a right but we are a civilized society and will not let granny die on the curb cause she has no cash.  Who pays for granny or the illegal alien now?  You do, and now it is really free for them, and the healthcare system still profits when you pay for it.  Great system.  The "free" thing is a silly agrument against UHC.  Under your beloved system is the only time anyone really gets anything for free.


----------



## Cowboy

Av8r3400 said:


> In my view, in the simplest terms, this is all about people that "feel" that *healthcare* is a right they should get for free, rather than a responsibility that they hold for themselves and their family.
> 
> I am on one side of this argument, some are on the other.


 

  I'm on the same side . 

  I dont understand how someone would be able to expect something for nothing wether its healthcare or a friggen tuneup on your vehicle .


----------



## mak2

Cowboy said:


> I'm on the same side .
> 
> I dont understand how someone would be able to expect something for nothing wether its healthcare or a friggen tuneup on your vehicle .



See, here is where this argument makes no sense.

You gonna let them die at the curb?


----------



## Av8r3400

Apples and Oranges argument, Mak.

Granny(elderly) and the total destitute are both covered by Medicare/Medicade, our American UHC.

Who we are talking about are the people who *choose* to not take responsibility for their own healthcare needs.  Yes, Mak, it is a choice.


----------



## jimbo

mak2 said:


> I have never argued it is a right.  I also never say "feel".  It is not a right but we are a civilized society and will not let granny die on the curb cause she has no cash.  Who pays for granny or the illegal alien now?  You do, and now it is really free for them, and the healthcare system still profits when you pay for it.  Great system.  The "free" thing is a silly agrument against UHC.  Under your beloved system is the only time anyone really gets anything for free.


Mak, it seems to me that most of your argument is that health care is a right.  

The illegals cluttering up the system is an easy fix.  Send the bastards back to where they came from and let their own government take care of them.


----------



## mak2

OK pretend granny is just a tad too young for medicare and pneumonia will kill her before she qualifies for medicaid. You know exactly what I am talking about.  You are paying for it now, they are getting it free NOW, yet somehow, you use that free thing as an arguemnt against a system in which people have to participate and at least pay something.  That is why the individual mandate existed, which will eventually turn into a tax based system anyway.  Such tired arguments.  They (sick lame lazy, them people, what ever you want to call them) are getting free healthcare care under the old system and we are paying dearly for it.


----------



## mak2

jimbo said:


> Mak, it seems to me that most of your argument is that health care is a right.
> 
> The illegals cluttering up the system is an easy fix.  Send the bastards back to where they came from and let their own government take care of them.



You are making up stuff.  Never ever ever have I said healthcare is a right.  We are a civilived society and for the sake of us responsible citizens we cant let poor people die on the street, for our sake not their rights.  Dont make up stuff I said then try to argue with me aobut it.

I agree, they should go home.


----------



## Cowboy

mak2 said:


> See, here is where this argument makes no sense.
> 
> You gonna let them die at the curb?


 It may not make sense to you but it was the way I was brought up . There are exceptions to everything , sure an accident victim or other neccesary emergencys need to be handled at the time . 

  But Yep as far as I'm concerned if you haven't planned ahead for such things your fucked . People are to damn spoiled & dependent these days, but keep spitting out kids they cant afford which is one of the biggest problems IMO . If I continue to have to pay for even more freeloaders how in the hell am I suposed to afford taking care of my own .


----------



## jimbo

So, if granny is getting free health care now, what is it we need to fix?

As for a tax based system, half the country pays no taxes.


----------



## Cowboy

mak2 said:


> OK pretend granny is just a tad too young for medicare and pneumonia will kill her before she qualifies for medicaid. You know exactly what I am talking about. You are paying for it now, they are getting it free NOW, yet somehow, you use that free thing as an arguemnt against a system in which people have to participate and at least pay something. That is why the individual mandate existed, which will eventually turn into a tax based system anyway. Such tired arguments. They (sick lame lazy, them people, what ever you want to call them) are getting free healthcare care under the old system and we are paying dearly for it.


 

I still dont get it Mak . Why should I have to take care of your granny ? WTF happened to familys taking responsibility for their own ? If it wasn't for Granny I wouldn't be here , hell yes I will do everything in my power to take care of my own . Why should others EXPECT not to have to .


----------



## mak2

jimbo said:


> So, if granny is getting free health care now, what is it we need to fix?
> 
> As for a tax based system, half the country pays no taxes.



The problem is granny is getting that care in the ER with pneumonia costing thousands of dollars instead of in a clinic for $50.  We are paying the thousands now our of OUR healthcare dollars, THEY are getting it free now.  Not a good system.  Needs fixed, enter UHC or some form of it hopefully.  I agree there should be no illegeal people here and everyone should be paying taxes.  Including buisness owners and people making over $250k.  

By the way, I stopped by a bar Friday night.  Cash only, no debit cards of any kind.  Think he was trying not to pay taxes?


----------



## mak2

Cowboy said:


> I still dont get it Mak . Why should I have to take care of your granny ? WTF happened to familys taking responsibility for their own ? If it wasn't for Granny I wouldn't be here , hell yes I will do everything in my power to take care of my own . Why should others EXPECT not to have to .



They are getting it free under the current system, just in the least efficient means possible.  Why doesnt it bother you now?


----------



## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Well said av8r!

I do think that the corporate greed of profit driven healthcare will be its undoing.  At some point it is going to have to change.  Basic healthcare costs for "hospital" care are just way too expensive.

There are a lot of common sense benefits to healthcare systems like Canada.  The poor "entitlement" class is unable to get the Cadillac treatment because the "government" doesn't offer that service.  

At the end of the day it comes down to entitlement, the poor and irresponsible feel they are entitled to the best healthcare, the hospitals feel they are entitled to max out charges on the insured, the insurance companies feel they are entitled to skimp payments to hospitals and providers.  The people that get stuck with the bills are the poor suckers that have money and end up in the system that seeks to get what they can where ever they can.

When I was at the hospital and trying my best to keep my costs down, I shared a room with two others that were on disability and had full benefits (probably better coverage than mine) - these guys didn't have to worry about paying a thing and the hospital was all over them.

Neither system is fair to the working class, in Canada you pay a ton more in taxes to support those that wouldn't be able to pay.  Basically, "socialism".  In the US you get burned "if" you have to enter the system.  However, if you can stay out of the system then you are able to avoid paying to support others.  The US system is great if you can afford it when you need it but it is even better if you are able to stay healthy and avoid it.

I must say that after my two trips to the hospital last year, I wouldn't mind seeing changes in the US system - the costs need to be limited.  I don't have all the answers but the system is clearly broken.

However, I don't want to have UHC.  I've lived under it and know it is expensive.  I think the standard of care is acceptable but I am skeptical that it can be applied cost effectively in the US - it would ultimately end up as a massive tax burden on the middle class.  The rich will be able to afford it and as always the poor will just get a free ride.


----------



## jimbo

Your arguments make less and less sense.  Instead of granny using the ER, why not set up $50 a visit clinics, and stop the usage of ER's for band aids?  Don't we already have free clinics and $50 clinics?

Your tax argument flies in the face of fact.  Top 5% pay 50% of the taxes, and all the top 5% are in the 250K and above bracket.  This includes many small business owners.  They are people who put their asses and their cash at risk in hopes of providing a better life for themselves and their families.

The bar story is a diversionary tactic.  Won't work


----------



## Glink

> The US system is great if you can afford it when you need it but it is even better if you are able to stay healthy and avoid it.



You keep wondering off into this individual responsibility nonsense. You know that confuses the cheese eaters and makes them crazy don't you?


----------



## Glink

mak2 said:


> By the way, I stopped by a bar Friday night.  Cash only, no debit cards of any kind.  Think he was trying not to pay taxes?



So what did you drink?


----------



## Cowboy

mak2 said:


> They are getting it free under the current system, just in the least efficient means possible. Why doesnt it bother you now?


 

It does bother me now Mak , but there aint a damn thing I can do about it . But what pisses me off they are trying to force something down my throat I not only dont want , I will not use . 

  The government allready fixed my fuckin TV's so I cant get any channells anymore , enuffs enuff . STF out of my life period .


----------



## jimbo

Glink said:


> You keep wondering off into this individual responsibility nonsense. You know that confuses the cheese eaters and makes them crazy don't you?


Individual responsibility nonsense?  Cheese eaters?

I'm gonna repeat myself, your arguments make less and less sense as the thread goes on.


----------



## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Glink said:


> You keep wondering off into this individual responsibility nonsense. You know that confuses the cheese eaters and makes them crazy don't you?



Yup, ultimately that is what it is all about isn't it.


----------



## mak2

jimbo said:


> *Your arguments make less and less sense.  Instead of granny using the ER, why not set up $50 a visit clinics, and stop the usage of ER's for band aids?  Don't we already have free clinics and $50 clinics?*Your tax argument flies in the face of fact.  Top 5% pay 50% of the taxes, and all the top 5% are in the 250K and above bracket.  This includes many small business owners.  They are people who put their asses and their cash at risk in hopes of providing a better life for themselves and their families.
> 
> The bar story is a diversionary tactic.  Won't work



Now you are starting to catch on.  There should be clinics.  There arent because of low profits in clinics.  Clinics and well caer are an important part of UHC.  

The bar think was just a thought, kinda a friendly aside, I dont need a diversion really.  Wont work .


----------



## pirate_girl

groomerguyNWO said:


> *Um....I guess a member here isn't allowed to have their own opinion then even if its different then the majority without it being torn apart to be something its not.  *
> 
> 
> You won't be seeing me back here for anything other then the snowcat section for a while.




*Oh yes you are!*

Don't say things like that Brian, your input is just as important and valid as the next person.


----------



## Cowboy

mak2 said:


> Now you are starting to catch on. There should be clinics. There arent because of low profits in clinics. Clinics and well caer are an important part of UHC.
> 
> The bar think was just a thought, kinda a friendly aside, I dont need a diversion really. Wont work .


 

Once again there are clinics, some even free , you just have to look for them . Unless of coarse you would rather just depend on the government to take care of you . 
http://www.freemedicalsearch.org/sta/kansas

Free Medical Clinics and Dental Clinics in Wichita, Kansas 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			
		
		
	


	


Brookside Satellite of Hunter Health Clinic



Central Plains Regional Health Care Foundation



Colvin Clinic 



Evergreen Clinic



Healthy Children's Center



Hunter Health Clinic at Inter-Faith Ministries



Hunter Health Clinic, Inc.



Options Adult and Youth Services of DCCA, Inc



United Methodist Health Clinic - Mosley Clinic



United Methodist Health Clinic of Wichita, Inc



Wichita Child Guidance Center


----------



## BigAl RIP

pirate_girl said:


> *Oh yes you are!*
> 
> Don't say things like that Brian, your input is just as important and valid as the next person.


 
 I agree wth PG . Please stay even if you don't respone to the Debate section . At the end of the day , Every person has their belief weather its in agreement with me or not .

    Some think they know it all and had done it all . Their mind is closed to reasoning of any sort .
  Hell , I been stumbling along for years and know damn well I don't have all the answers , but without asking and disagreeing at times, how will I ever learn ???


----------



## mak2

Cowboy said:


> Once again there are clinics, some even free , you just have to look for them . Unless of coarse you would rather just depend on the government to take care of you .
> http://www.freemedicalsearch.org/sta/kansas
> 
> Free Medical Clinics and Dental Clinics in Wichita, Kansas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brookside Satellite of Hunter Health Clinic
> 
> 
> 
> Central Plains Regional Health Care Foundation
> 
> 
> 
> Colvin Clinic
> 
> 
> 
> Evergreen Clinic
> 
> 
> 
> Healthy Children's Center
> 
> 
> 
> Hunter Health Clinic at Inter-Faith Ministries
> 
> 
> 
> Hunter Health Clinic, Inc.
> 
> 
> 
> Options Adult and Youth Services of DCCA, Inc
> 
> 
> 
> United Methodist Health Clinic - Mosley Clinic
> 
> 
> 
> United Methodist Health Clinic of Wichita, Inc
> 
> 
> 
> Wichita Child Guidance Center



Cowboy, most big city ER's are full because there are no clinics for them to go to.  If there was the ER would send them or they would have entered the system at some point besides the ER.  end of story.


----------



## Cowboy

mak2 said:


> Cowboy, most big city ER's are full because there are no clinics for them to go to. If there was the ER would send them or they would have entered the system at some point besides the ER. end of story.


 

Well about all I can say is that must really suck for those that choose to live there . 

I'm not sure I beleive it though . Of coarse it might be because some people think they are to good to go to the free or cheap clinics . 

http://www.freemedicalcamps.com/vcity.php?stateid=IN

http://www.freemedicalsearch.org/sta/indiana


----------



## BigAl RIP

groomerguyNWO said:


> Um....I guess a member here isn't allowed to have their own opinion then even if its different then the majority without it being torn apart to be something its not.
> 
> I 'll just back down and agree with you that the USA is the best at everything....best health care, best military, best politicians, best at everything. Everything I've seen in the debate section of the forum is a bunch of yankees standing there with there chests stuck out saying Hurrah Hurrah!! I'm better then you are....
> 
> And people wonder why americans have such a bad rep all around the world....sheesh!!!
> 
> You won't be seeing me back here for anything other then the snowcat section for a while.


 
 I, for one, want to say I am sorry for starting this thread if it means losing a fellow member from stating his opinion .  Shame on all of us who think only "our own " opinion matters . Yes ,its in the debate section and it can get heated , But your point will be made better if a little respect is showed in your replies . I would hate to have the closed mind that I have seen displayed here by some members .
 Through out history , no body ever got it right the first time .JMO 


    I guess I should state for all to criticize  "*I don't like liver"* .... You got a problem with that too  ????


----------



## pirate_girl

BigAl said:


> I guess I should state for all to criticize  "*I don't like liver"* ....




Ewwwwww, I hate it myself..


----------



## mak2

jpr62902 said:


> I disagree.  I think GG's comment is bullshit and hyperbole.
> 
> His comment actually highlights one of the biggest problems with US healthcare cost.  Over utilization and inefficiency.  Clinic visits for every ache and malaise.  ER visits for problems that are not emergencies.
> 
> Exaggeration is not persuasive.



Just for the record this is the post that ran him off.  This is normal behavior on this forum, the difference is GG bowed out rather than take the abuse.  This is exactly what has happened to many, many other members that are a little from the far right.  Like I said earlier I was hunting a refernece for somewhere else a while back, it is amazing how many people are now banned.  And every single one of them on that thread were what you guys call lefties.


----------



## pirate_girl

mak2 said:


> Just for the record this is the post that ran him off.  This is normal behavior on this forum, the difference is GG bowed out rather than take the abuse.  This is exactly what has happened to many, many other members that are a little from the far right.  Like I said earlier I was hunting a refernece for somewhere else a while back, it is amazing how many people are now banned.  And every single one of them on that thread were what you guys call lefties.



Many, many?
I can only think of 2 at the moment who've _chosen_ to no longer post here because of the politics.
And 2 who were banned.

You guys? Yep, group and blame all the conservatives on the forum for everything.
Way to go..


----------



## mak2

pirate_girl said:


> Many, many?
> I can only think of 2 at the moment who've _chosen_ to no longer post here because of the politics.
> And 2 who were banned.
> 
> You guys? Yep, group and blame all the conservatives on the forum for everything.
> Way to go..



Ok you are right, it wasnt the conservatives, it was........wait.....everyone here is conservatives, except me, and anywhere but here I am.  Deny it all you want, if someone dissents with the far right wing opinion they are roundly abused.  Everyone has left but me over the years PG, I think that was a few more than 4.  But okay I am not going to argue about this.    I was just pointing out the obvious.


----------



## SShepherd

pirate_girl said:


> Many, many?
> I can only think of 2 at the moment who've _chosen_ to no longer post here because of the politics.
> And 2 who were banned.
> 
> You guys? Yep, group and blame all the conservatives on the forum for everything.
> Way to go..


 
it's pretty simple PG. This debate area is open to anyone- noone makes people read or post here. This forums level of debate *requires *you to post references or  other relevant info to back up your point. Not doing that reduces a post to opinion and nor fact. Evidently some cannot deal with it and resort to making it personal/call names. When that happens everything goes down the crapper.
GG made an opinion post and was called on it- to wich he responded with some personal insults,
 "*...Everything I've seen in the debate section of the forum is a bunch of yankees standing there with there chests stuck out saying Hurrah Hurrah!! I'm better then you are....

And people wonder why americans have such a bad rep all around the world....sheesh!!!"*

Thats when people leave.


----------



## mak2

Uh, no, he left because someone told him his post was bullshit, and that someone was a mod.  It is right there in the thread, read it.


----------



## NorthernRedneck

SShepherd said:


> it's pretty simple PG. This debate area is open to anyone- noone makes people read or post here. This forums level of debate *requires *you to post references or  other relevant info to back up your point. Not doing that reduces a post to opinion and nor fact. Evidently some cannot deal with it and resort to making it personal/call names. When that happens everything goes down the crapper.
> GG made an opinion post and was called on it- to wich he responded with some personal insults,
> "*...Everything I've seen in the debate section of the forum is a bunch of yankees standing there with there chests stuck out saying Hurrah Hurrah!! I'm better then you are....
> 
> And people wonder why americans have such a bad rep all around the world....sheesh!!!"*
> 
> Thats when people leave.



Ok...I guess I was having a bad morning and might have snapped a bit with that post.  For that I apologize.  But in my defense, I do have a right to my beliefs even if they aren't the same as the majority here.  Oh well, I will gracefully bow out of this conversation now and keep my nose out of the debate section of the forum from this point forward. 

You guys all have fun debating this!


----------



## SShepherd

groomerguyNWO said:


> Ok...I guess I was having a bad morning and might have snapped a bit with that post. For that I apologize. But in my defense,* I do have a right to my beliefs even if they aren't the same as the majority here.* Oh well, I will gracefully bow out of this conversation now and keep my nose out of the debate section of the forum from this point forward.
> 
> You guys all have fun debating this!


 
you most definatly do


----------



## Doc

Brian, no one said anything about how great we American's are in this thread or anywhere that I know of.  No one said we have the best health care system.  Many of us like what we have and don't want Obamacare.  This is the debate forum.  None of us agree with everything said by someone else.  That is to be expected.  That's how debate works.   If someone does not agree with you they will call you on it.  No biggie.  And that should in no way change what you believe.  Different strokes for different folks.

Mak keeps talking of people being banned.  I know of two, Vin and CB.  Both were banned for different reasons and neither had anything to do with politics.   Mak is the one calling the others that are gone lefties.  Is that saying they can't take the heat.  They can't stand to have their beliefs questioned or challenged?   No one has ever been banned or discouraged from posting here because of their beliefs.  Heck Mak even believes he is the only left leaning member on the site.       Makes me laugh.  He for sure is the most vocal for wanting the government to take over our health care but I assure you if you read posts here you will see others who are left leaning on some things and right leaning on the others.  To me those are the folks that think and evaluate for themselves.  Anyone who is left on everything or right on everything kinda scares me a little, but that is their right.   

You all are welcome to state your beliefs here but do not expect all the others to have a light bulb go off over their head and change they way they think.  Just does not happen.  Over time some are enlightened on some things but I have yet to see anyone jump totally from one side to the other.


----------



## SShepherd

mak2 said:


> Uh, no, he left because someone told him his post was bullshit, and that someone was a mod. It is right there in the thread, read it.


 um..YES

mods have a right to their opinion also- something you seem to keep forgetting.

don't like it ? either quit complaining or don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. You've been hinting at it for a long time, backhandedly as if being banned would be somekind of bragging right.

stop parroting about "the hordes of people that have been run off"--it's the internet FFS, no one has forced to be anywhere .


----------



## mak2

SShepherd said:


> um..YES
> 
> mods have a right to their opinion also- something you seem to keep forgetting.
> 
> don't like it ? either quit complaining or don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. You've been hinting at it for a long time, backhandedly as if being banned would be somekind of bragging right.
> 
> stop parroting about "the hordes of people that have been run off"--it's the internet FFS, no one has forced to be anywhere .



Who the hell are you anyway?  Yeppers, this is nearly a loony bin of liberal thought.    This thread is the perfect example of stifling that liberal thought.  BUt whatever.  

I think this is thread drift, shouldnt a mod come in and threaten to lock it if we dont get back on topic?


----------



## SShepherd

mak2 said:


> Who the hell are you anyway? Yeppers, this is nearly a loony bin of liberal thought.  This thread is the perfect example of stifling that liberal thought. BUt whatever.
> 
> I think this is thread drift, shouldnt a mod come in and threaten to lock it if we dont get back on topic?


  you're the victum 
no one has stifled anything, just asked for proof through references- something you fail to produce , yet when asked for it reply with a snarky comment ( although you repeatedly demand references from everyone else ) I'm pretty sure that point is glaringly obvious to anyone who reads this thread.


----------



## mak2

SShepherd said:


> you're the victum
> no one has stifled anything, just asked for proof through references- something you fail to produce , yet when asked for it reply with a snarky comment ( although you repeatedly demand references from everyone else ) I'm pretty sure that point is glaringly obvious to anyone who reads this thread.



Reference?


----------



## jpr62902

GG, you didn't deserve that.  You have my apologies.  I'm better than that and I know you are too.

BigAl, your appetite for liver is bullshit.


----------



## SShepherd

mak2 said:


> Reference?


http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showpost.php?p=445294&postcount=57

http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showpost.php?p=445297&postcount=59

http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showpost.php?p=445298&postcount=60

not that you didn't just demand another reference, but so everyone can see it


----------



## mak2

He did not site a reference, he jsut made up something.  When I was asked where to find something I told them exactly.  When I post something I look up I will post the link.  If you think it is something else site a reference.  If not, we are 50th in life expectancy according  to the CIA.  If that is vauge a link cant help you.  I am getting bored with this silliness


----------



## SShepherd

'I told you" doesn't cut it. I'mnot sure why you feel what you say hold's any more weight than anyone else here. Cut and paste the link is pretty much the standard for backing up a point of view on the internet.


----------



## mak2

SShepherd said:


> 'I told you" doesn't cut it. I'mnot sure why you feel what you say hold's any more weight than anyone else here. Cut and paste the link is pretty much the standard for backing up a point of view on the internet.



Reference?


----------



## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

<mod hat on>
mak2 and SShepherd.  

Based on your past dealings with each other I would suggest that you to do not continue on the path you are on.

If either of you reports each other or your posts get more personal I will suggest a temporary ban be placed in effect for both of you.

Thank you.
<mod hat off>


----------



## mak2

Can we just wressle?


----------



## Cowboy

EastTexFrank said:


> I promised myself that I wouldn't get involved in another health care debate but I couldn't let the above pass without comment.
> 
> Mak, what you said above is totally and absolutely wrong. It is one of the fallacies (lies) associated with the justification for UHC.
> 
> Take that from one who has a great deal of experience in the British National Health System.


 


mak2 said:


> I quoted you above and I meant to quote Melensdad, sorry. When you make statements about entire systems, you need more than anecdotal evidence. I appreciate the fact you have had bad experience with some form of UHC, but the health of a health care system is compiled from large numbers of cases. My Mom hates the nicest hospital in Indy because one night they did not answer her call light for hours, It still gets great ratings etc, but my Mom still tells people how bad it is.


 


EastTexFrank said:


> Mak, read closely. There was no anecdotal evidence in the statement that I made but to justify your point you quote "anecdotal evidence". Get out of here.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not a wholehearted fan of the American system either but the shortcomings of the American system won't be addressed by adopting UHC. People will expect to have the facilities, care and attention that they have available now at vastly reduced or little cost. Ain't goin' to happen.


 


EastTexFrank said:


> That is a statement of fact not anecdotal evidence.


 


mak2 said:


> Anecdotal evidence is an informal account of evidence in the form of an anecdote. The term is often used in contrast to scientific evidence, as evidence that cannot be investigated using the scientific method. The problem with arguing based on anecdotal evidence is that anecdotal evidence is not necessarily typical; only statistical evidence can determine how typical something is. Misuse of anecdotal is a *logical fallacy.*
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdote


 


EastTexFrank said:


> Mak, are you still drinking and vacuuming out your basement?
> 
> I am perfectly aware of the definition of anecdotal evidence and you're still twisting the truth to suit your own ends and ignoring points that you can't answer, explain or justify.
> 
> I'm out of here. Any further replies will be wasted time and effort on your part.


 


mak2 said:


> Do you have any sort of evidence besides your personal experience? If you do and site it I would be glad to listen. This is how these healthcare arguments always go. What you state above is anecdotal evidence.


 


mak2 said:


> Reference?


 

 This is what I dont understand . Frank told you he had hands on experience in several posts but thats not good enough for you you keep asking for references but have not posted one yourself yet , other then saying I read it on CIA . 

  I'm not much of a debater nor do I know very much about this topic like some . But I sure as hell pay attention to someone with hands on experience much more then someone that likes to just stir the hornets nest . 

  Now who is running people out of these debate threads ? You only side with those that you THINK are agreeing with you & most cases I dont think they even are . 

  I aint got no dog in this fight but I would like to here more from Frank or others that acctually know WTF is going on , not just going off of some study .


----------



## mak2

Cowboy, hands on experience makes a difference when you are changing your brakes.  When you are studying a healthcare system the experiences of a single person are worse than meaningless, it can be completely the opposite of truth.  If I am running the people out of these threads it looks like there would be at least one left that agreed with me.  I guess there used to be exactly 2 pretty funny.  Frank can say whatever he wants to.  I dont tell him his post is bullshit or harass for referenes after he tells me exaclty where to find it.  

Did you and SS tag up  when he left?


----------



## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

mak2 said:


> Can we just wressle?



Not here!


----------



## Cowboy

mak2 said:


> Cowboy, hands on experience makes a difference when you are changing your brakes. When you are studying a healthcare system the experiences of a single person are worse than meaningless, it can be completely the opposite of truth. If I am running the people out of these threads it looks like there would be at least one left that agreed with me. I guess there used to be exactly 2 pretty funny. Frank can say whatever he wants to. I dont tell him his post is bullshit or harass for referenes after he tells me exaclty where to find it.
> 
> Did you and SS tag up when he left?


 

Why must you think everyone is out to get you Mak , No SS & I did not tag up as you call it ? 

 Back to the topic if I may ask, exactlly what are your experiences in the field of UHC ? 

  I know you are some kind of a professor & teach at some level by some of your previous posts so I'm just curious . Are you or have you been involved with UHC or just in studys of it ? 

  These are just serious questions & none of my buisness if you would rather not say no problem , you just seem to be so for it I would just like to know why other then some statistics from studys or whatever . Personal experience may be meaningless to you , but I like to at least here it & sort it out for myself . If I wanted to be brainwashed I woulda went to college .


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## mak2

In the early 2006 I dont remember exactly when, I was just exactly like you guys.  I thought our system of healthcare was the best in the world. Back then the only thing I was to the left on was civil rights and we did not argue about that much, seems like a lot more of you guys liked me.  in 7 or 8  (or 6 or 5 Ilive in dog time) while working on my Masters I based most of my papers and studies on UHC fully expecting it to suck.  Come to find out it did not suck.  In almost all indicators Canada and Japan and England out performed us.  Study after study showed imporved healthcare system wide in UHC.  I have even had people on this site argue evidnence based practice  is meaningless, evidence based practice is science based and an important consideration in UHC.  Without going too far into it and pissing more people off, the reason you dont hear of studies from the right show how our system is superior is there arent very many.  The ones we are better are high profit.  That is where rationing and death panels come from, no studies, must make up scary words.  I have worked many years in the private sector and many years in a government run hospital.  Enough about me, pretty soon someone is going to again tell me I made the thread all aobut me.


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## mak2

Let me try to explain one more thing I dont think I explain very well.  Medicine is full of stuff we have always done.  When I worked in ICU when a patients BP dropped he dropped the head of his bed.  We thought that increased his BP and blood flow to the his gourd.  there is no scientific evidence to show it made any difference, manytimes when we dropped the head of the bed the pts BP did go up, but many times it didnt.  Statistically dropping the head of the bed makes no difference, but we always did it.  Our experience told us it helped, really it doesnt.  My Mom hates one of the best hospitals in town, because she had a nurse that wouldnt answer her call lites.  My Mom experience was real, but the overall performance of the hospital is great.  My Mom's inpression is not the reality of the overall functioning of the hospital.


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## Cowboy

mak2 said:


> I have worked many years in the private sector and many years in a government run hospital. Enough about me, pretty soon someone is going to again tell me I made the thread all aobut me.


 

Thats good enough for me Mak , Thanks for explaining your back ground in the field . It may not make that much difference to others but it does me . And I'm the one that asked so Its my fault if it appears its turned to about you .   Sorry for the thread jack Al .


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## jpr62902

mak2 said:


> Just for the record this is the post that ran him off. This is normal behavior on this forum, the difference is GG bowed out rather than take the abuse. This is exactly what has happened to many, many other members that are a little from the far right. Like I said earlier I was hunting a refernece for somewhere else a while back, it is amazing how many people are now banned. And every single one of them on that thread were what you guys call lefties.


 
So it's not ok if I post a critical comment.  "Abuse" you call it.

But in the page before my comment, you post this in response to another member:



mak2 said:


> Great, the think tank is here.


 
Both GG and I posted apologies.  Are you gonna man up, too?  Otherwise, you're not willing to conduct yourself according to the lofty standards to which you want others to be held accountable.  There's a word for that.


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## pirate_girl

Jim, I apologize for getting caught up in all this too.
Didn't mean to come across so bitchy last night.
Seems whenever UHC enters a debate, things get heated.

I took no offense at Brian calling us yanks at all, or anything he said.
Guess I am more tolerant than I thought.

As for Mak constantly bringing up banned members and saying stuff like "it's no wonder.. blah blah blah".. that needs to stay out of the debates CURRENT posting members are involved in.

Sure I miss Cali and Bonehead, even Cityboy and Vin.
All have lended good points to debates over the years, and kept the forum interesting.

Like Shep said, this is only a forum.. but a lot of us do get caught up emotionally in the topics at hand.
That's not always such a bad thing, but it can become one.


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## joec

If I might ask one more time please. What percentage of your income do those with insurance pay in premiums? Second question for those that do have you put a claim against it and if so what percentage of the money you paid to date did you get back? Now I asked this earlier so if I'm not on every ones ignore list would someone with insurance please respond and thanks if you do. This question was asked in an honest quest to find out what people pay and get back with private insurance in this group only.


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## waybomb

Percentage, who knows? 

What do you think great coverage for the last 29 years for two people has cost, and 20 of those years with a child on the plan too? $250k? Net benefit so far, maybe 50k. 

What do you think it cost my MiL in Poland, working almost everyday of her life from12 yoa or so on up to about 70yoa? Her benefit from all of that. NOTHING. When she was working, she was healthy and a contributor to the Polish economy and never had anything even minor done to/for her. Now that she is retired, and an expense to the government, they are literally trying to kill her. They withold medication, try to push her out into the street, even though we send money over there every month for this free UHC healthcare, dealing with every level of bullshit bureaucrat all that way to judges to have her taken care of. YOU CAN HAVE UHC.

I'd rather pay an insurance company, and if I have to fight or sue them, at least the judge is probably somewhat impartial, whereas with UHC, it is you against all of them, the whole shit, the system.


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## joec

waybomb said:


> Percentage, who knows?
> 
> What do you think great coverage for the last 29 years for two people has cost, and 20 of those years with a child on the plan too? $250k? Net benefit so far, maybe 50k.
> 
> What do you think it cost my MiL in Poland, working almost everyday of her life from12 yoa or so on up to about 70yoa? Her benefit from all of that. NOTHING. When she was working, she was healthy and a contributor to the Polish economy and never had anything even minor done to/for her. Now that she is retired, and an expense to the government, they are literally trying to kill her. They withold medication, try to push her out into the street, even though we send money over there every month for this free UHC healthcare, dealing with every level of bullshit bureaucrat all that way to judges to have her taken care of. YOU CAN HAVE UHC.
> 
> I'd rather pay an insurance company, and if I have to fight or sue them, at least the judge is probably somewhat impartial, whereas with UHC, it is you against all of them, the whole shit, the system.



Did I ask about Poland? I am asking about the USA which is where you live I assume. Oh and I thought I was on your ignore list.


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## pirate_girl

joec said:


> If I might ask one more time please. What percentage of your income do those with insurance pay in premiums?


$130 per month comes out of my pay for my insurance where I work.


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## joec

I asked percentage because I don't care to know your yearly income just the percentage paid for insurance was my point. To make the point for me it would be 200% or greater to get insurance is the reason I'm asking. So in my case UHC like medicare for all, that is paid in taxes like a large group plan would be a benefit to me and my wife. Now if one takes the profit margin out of the eqaution then health care would be cheaper in my opinion. For example I've read that .50 of ever dollar for car insurance is used to see if one can get car insurance from a given company. I'm just simply curious if what I believe is true that without insurance companies it would all be cheaper.

Thanks for responding though PG it is a step forward at least.


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## waybomb

joec said:


> Did I ask about Poland? I am asking about the USA which is where you live I assume. Oh and I thought I was on your ignore list.


 

I took you off of ignore a month or so ago. I thought you were calming down.

The thread is "what so damn bad about social medicine?" right? So I answered a couple of questions in one answer. I'm conserving energy, you know, turning green.....


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## Big Dog

joec said:


> If I might ask one more time please. What percentage of your income do those with insurance pay in premiums? Second question for those that do have you put a claim against it and if so what percentage of the money you paid to date did you get back? Now I asked this earlier so if I'm not on every ones ignore list would someone with insurance please respond and thanks if you do. This question was asked in an honest quest to find out what people pay and get back with private insurance in this group only.



We had a thread on cost here ............. http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showthread.php?t=44625

Premium not including deductible payments 1%, if required to meet my maximum family deductible 5%.


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## joec

Thanks BD and I posted to that tread extensively also. However it wasn't asked what others paid for health insurance here in this group with percentages of yearly income. Oh and 1% to 5% is pretty good now have you made a claim against them at all? That is when you find out if you have insurance as I did. I paid for almost 30 years until I made a single claim and found out they wouldn't pay a dime.


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## BigAl RIP

Big Dog said:


> We had a thread on cost here ............. http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showthread.php?t=44625
> 
> Premium not including deductible payments 1%, if required to meet my maximum family deductible 5%.


 That seems pretty fair ?????


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## Big Dog

joec said:


> Thanks BD and I posted to that tread extensively also. However it wasn't asked what others paid for health insurance here in this group with percentages of yearly income. Oh and 1% to 5% is pretty good now have you made a claim against them at all? That is when you find out if you have insurance as I did. I paid for almost 30 years until I made a single claim and found out they wouldn't pay a dime.





BigAl said:


> That seems pretty fair ?????



I'm on a high deductible, last year my annual premium came to $960 and I paid $1600 in deductible ($2500 individual/$5k family max). Healthcare cost my family 2.6% last year, I never got into my 90/10 usage.

I use to go with low deductible but the premium was 4.5% ($400 deductible/$800 family max) so by going with the high I saved about 2K last year.

The nice thing about the high deductible is it qualifies for a company annual contribution of $1000 to your HSA so in essence my out of pocket deductible is $1500 (ind) or $4000 (family) if utilized.


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## Av8r3400

joec said:


> If I might ask one more time please. What percentage of your income do those with insurance pay in premiums? Second question for those that do have you put a claim against it and if so what percentage of the money you paid to date did you get back? Now I asked this earlier so if I'm not on every ones ignore list would someone with insurance please respond and thanks if you do. This question was asked in an honest quest to find out what people pay and get back with private insurance in this group only.




Joe--  My business partner buys insurance.  (I am on my wifes.)  He is 54 years old, prediabetic, had testicular cancer 25 years ago, slightly elevated blood pressure and cholesterol numbers.  His wife is (trying to be delicate here) quite under tall for her weight with the associated issues.

He is in a high risk pool for his insurance and pays $8500 per year with a $2500 annual deductible (total out of pocket).  It is a health savings account eligible policy which he chooses to utilize.


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## joec

Folks I asking what percentage do you pay in premiums you pay in relation to your gross income. These other numbers really mean little to the point I'm trying to make. The second question was, have you made a claim and if so what percentage did they pay in relations to what you have paid? Now this should be fairly simple for you that watch every dime that comes in to your house as I do and I assume most others do.


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## EastTexFrank

I dropped out of this discussion a while ago but something occurred to me today and I haven't had time to think it out or think it through.  So let me float this out there for discussion.  

When we talk about UHC, the British system that I am familiar with isn't a good example because it is essentially a government monopoly but when you look at the systems of western Europe and some other places where UHC seems to work reasonably well, they are almost all two tier systems.  

The government provides a "free point of entry" where the basic system is funded by tax payer dollars in one for or another, either through direct taxation or separate National Health contributions.  The government and the industry decides and agrees on a rate of payment for services.  If the rate charged by the medical facility exceeds that rate of payment then the individual is liable for the difference.  To offset this cost, the individual can purchase private insurance to cover a percentage of that overage or cover the whole.  

Then it struck me.  We already have a system almost exactly like that in place in America, it's called Medicare.  So we don't need a whole new system and a whole new bureaucracy to administer it, just extend Medicare to cover all American citizens.  

Instead of employer contributions and employee contributions going directly to some insurance company, pay them directly into Medicare but leave the employee enough to be able to purchase the Medigap insurance from the insurance companies.  So everybody is happy, they still get there cut of the pie, just a different cut.  The coverage may only cover 90% or so of the total costs of a prolonged hospital stay or expensive hospital treatment but every working American would be covered.  


Am I missing something here or is there potential for this idea??????


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## mak2

jpr62902 said:


> So it's not ok if I post a critical comment.  "Abuse" you call it.
> 
> But in the page before my comment, you post this in response to another member:
> 
> 
> 
> Both GG and I posted apologies.  Are you gonna man up, too?  Otherwise, you're not willing to conduct yourself according to the lofty standards to which you want others to be held accountable.  There's a word for that.



OK, SS I am sorry I called you a think tank.


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## muleman RIP

I have stayed out of this discussion up till now. That said it would not be an issue if Big Al would just eat his liver!


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## pixie

My health insurance is more than 25% of my income with a $7500 deductible. I am healthy. No claims.

There are only 2 insurance companies available in NH.


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## Doc

Frank, your idea sounds very feasible to me (for what little I know of the medicare system); and as I've said in an earlier post, Big Al's idea for VA expansion to take care of low income folks without insurance also sounds feasible.  

I've seen profits mentioned in a few posts in this thread.  Thinking that if profit were taken out of the equation everyone's costs would be lower.  I'm all for lower cost, but do not believe it is that simple.  As most of us have witnessed the government has never ever ran anything more efficient than a private company has, UPS and Fed Ex being fair examples.  They make money while the post office goes in the hole.  Understood part of the reason is the stipulations / rules put on the post office by congress.  Health care would be the same.  Congress would hog tie it with stipulations that would end up costing us more than the profits we pay to current insurers today.   For the general public it's a no win situation.  We'll either pay more to insurers for similar coverage to what we currently have or pay more to Uncle Sam for a convoluted coverage that is a one size fits all type of deal which would equate to lessor coverage for the working people of our country but free coverage for immigrants and those on unemployment.


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## joec

Doc said:


> Frank, your idea sounds very feasible to me (for what little I know of the medicare system); and as I've said in an earlier post, Big Al's idea for VA expansion to take care of low income folks without insurance also sounds feasible.
> 
> I've seen profits mentioned in a few posts in this thread.  Thinking that if profit were taken out of the equation everyone's costs would be lower.  I'm all for lower cost, but do not believe it is that simple.  As most of us have witnessed the government has never ever ran anything more efficient than a private company has, UPS and Fed Ex being fair examples.  They make money while the post office goes in the hole.  Understood part of the reason is the stipulations / rules put on the post office by congress.  Health care would be the same.  Congress would hog tie it with stipulations that would end up costing us more than the profits we pay to current insurers today.   For the general public it's a no win situation.  We'll either pay more to insurers for similar coverage to what we currently have or pay more to Uncle Sam for a convoluted coverage that is a one size fits all type of deal which would equate to lessor coverage for the working people of our country but free coverage for immigrants and those on unemployment.



Actually the VA is cheaper than Medicare and perhaps works a bit better due to modern changes to it.

Now as for comparing FedEx, UPS and the USPS is like comparing apples and oranges. FedEx and UPS don't do first class mail nation wide on a daily basis but mostly send packages and such as a much higher rate. USPS wasn't intended to make a profit but was designed to work as government agency. Now it could be just as good if rates was simply raised to fair market value and it was allowed to compete.


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## mak2

One of the problems with comparing Govt agencies to civilian agencies is services provided.  At the VA we often keep pateints longer than a civilian hospital would (if needed), when we do send him home he has everything he needs in most cases, even including drugs and dietary supplements.  In a civilian hospital they focus a lot more on getting pateints out the door and trimming services to increase profits.  heck, we even give them a ride.


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