# Gold and Silver investment



## Doc

Every where I turn folks are advising to buy gold, turn your cash into gold or silver.

The WW III post even pushes that point a little further.   Is it time to make that move?   I don't know but with so many places offering to take your cash and turn it to gold, I know, without a doubt, there are some out there hoping to rip you a new one.

How do you know who to trust if you are turning your life savings in to gold?   What % of your savings would you or have you turned into gold?  

Right now, I have no gold.  But I'm considering that it's time.   

What do you think?


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## Kane

Doc said:


> Every where I turn folks are advising to buy gold, turn your cash into gold or silver.
> 
> The WW III post even pushes that point a little further.   Is it time to make that move?   I don't know but with so many places offering to take your cash and turn it to gold, I know, without a doubt, there are some out there hoping to rip you a new one.
> 
> How do you know who to trust if you are turning your life savings in to gold?   What % of your savings would you or have you turned into gold?
> 
> Right now, I have no gold.  But I'm considering that it's time.
> 
> What do you think?


Conservatively speaking, I wouldn't get too excited about gold, but we'll never see silver at or under $16 again.  You simply can't go wrong at that spot price.  One day (sooner than later, I fear) silver will be back over $40 heading towards $50.  And it's easily redeemed on the street in most any form.


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## bczoom

I too think silver may be better than gold.

As Kane mentioned, if you're going to do it, do it quickly as prices are creeping up.  Sport was $14 and change a few weeks ago but has climbed.

Depending on who you ask, 5-10% max of your savings.  I don't know the details but you can do something with precious metals as part of your IRA.

If you don't have physical possession of the metal, you don't own it.  Make sure you get the product, not a piece of paper saying you owner it.


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## Doc

Good info.  Thanks guys.  

But if one has a 401k and has a their life savings in it.   Now the shit hits the fan, the dollar is no longer the standard so it drops way down.  If you only have 10% of your savings in gold or silver you saved some but not a lot of what you could have had.   Those number seem very conservative to me.   But my 401k is tied up till I retire.  I cannot take out of it without a tax penalty and turn any of it to metals at this time.   

As for having to have possession of it, if stolen, it's simply gone.  No recovery from that.  I wonder if that has already started?   Thieves breaking in and taking gold or silver.


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## bczoom

Doc said:


> But if one has a 401k and has a their life savings in it.   Now the shit hits the fan, the dollar is no longer the standard so it drops way down.  If you only have 10% of your savings in gold or silver you saved some but not a lot of what you could have had.   Those number seem very conservative to me.   But my 401k is tied up till I retire.  I cannot take out of it without a tax penalty and turn any of it to metals at this time.


No idea where your retirement is but don't they have a fund where you can transfer some of your assets into metals? (_This breaks my next rule of possession but it is diversification_).  How about future contributions?  Instead of putting all your $ into the 401K, set some aside and buy metals that are 401K eligible and you take possession.




Doc said:


> As for having to have possession of it, if stolen, it's simply gone.  No recovery from that.  I wonder if that has already started?   Thieves breaking in and taking gold or silver.


Safety deposit box.
When I say "possession", you do have to physically have it but it doesn't necessarily need to be at the house.  If it's paper silver (or gold), as I recall or have read, there's only about 10% of the silver backing up the paper.  If there's a run on it and people want to sell and take possession then, only the first 10% actually get their product.


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## Kane

Doc said:


> Good info.  Thanks guys.
> 
> But if one has a 401k and has a their life savings in it.   Now the shit hits the fan, the dollar is no longer the standard so it drops way down.  If you only have 10% of your savings in gold or silver you saved some but not a lot of what you could have had.   Those number seem very conservative to me.   But my 401k is tied up till I retire.  I cannot take out of it without a tax penalty and turn any of it to metals at this time.
> 
> As for having to have possession of it, if stolen, it's simply gone.  No recovery from that.  I wonder if that has already started?   Thieves breaking in and taking gold or silver.



Correction, Doc. You can indeed roll all or a portion of your 401K into PM's without any penalty. Problem is, tho, the metal will likely be stored in NYC until you're of age to disburse it. Now that really sux, because, as they say, you don't own it unless you have it in hand. 

But to disburse it (get it in hand to bury in your own backyard) you're looking at a penalty plus taxes.  Sux. But paying taxes on $1,150 gold now is clearly less painful than paying taxes on $3,000-5,000 gold down the road. Your answer is your answer, only. 

As far as a percentage of your life savings in PM's? Good question. Some wise guys laugh at me for having 70% of my nest egg in gold and silver coins. That may indeed be the case over the last few years of the DOW going crazy for no good reason or sensible metric. The equities markets are unsustainable; it's nuts; really fucking nuts; it's bound to crash. So I think one day (sooner than later) I'll have the last laugh. 

Bullets, gold and toilet paper. I'll be just fine.


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## Doc

bczoom said:


> No idea where your retirement is but don't they have a fund where you can transfer some of your assets into metals? (_This breaks my next rule of possession but it is diversification_).  How about future contributions?  Instead of putting all your $ into the 401K, set some aside and buy metals that are 401K eligible and you take possession.


That's what I was thinking for the upcoming year.   



bczoom said:


> Safety deposit box.
> When I say "possession", you do have to physically have it but it doesn't necessarily need to be at the house.  If it's paper silver (or gold), as I recall or have read, there's only about 10% of the silver backing up the paper.  If there's a run on it and people want to sell and take possession then, only the first 10% actually get their product.



Thanks BC


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## Doc

Kane said:


> Correction, Doc. You can indeed roll all or a portion of your 401K into PM's without any penalty. Problem is, tho, the metal will likely be stored in NYC until you're of age to disburse it. Now that really sux, because, as they say, you don't own it unless you have it in hand.
> 
> But to disburse it (get it in hand to bury in your own backyard) you're looking at a penalty plus taxes.  Sux. But paying taxes on $1,150 gold now is clearly less painful than paying taxes on $3,000-5,000 gold down the road. Your answer is your answer, only.
> 
> As far as a percentage of your life savings in PM's? Good question. Some wise guys laugh at me for having 70% of my nest egg in gold and silver coins. That may indeed be the case over the last few years of the DOW going crazy for no good reason or sensible metric. The equities markets are unsustainable; it's nuts; really fucking nuts; it's bound to crash. So I think one day (sooner than later) I'll have the last laugh.
> 
> Bullets, gold and toilet paper. I'll be just fine.



I was wondering that after I typed it, and I do believe you are right on.  The thought of not having it in hand is bothersome do to what BC said above.

Thanks for all the info.  Wish I had more of a nest egg to put into PM's, as, like you, I think somethings gonna give sooner than later.


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## Kane

Kane said:


> Correction, Doc. You can indeed roll all or a portion of your 401K into PM's without any penalty.
> 
> Bullets, gold and toilet paper. I'll be just fine.





bczoom said:


> Safety deposit box.
> When I say "possession", you do have to physically have it but it doesn't necessarily need to be at the house.  If it's paper silver (or gold), as I recall or have read, there's only about 10% of the silver backing up the paper.  If there's a run on it and people want to sell and take possession then, only the first 10% actually get their product.



Never ever never ever buy paper gold.


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## EastTexFrank

I have some gold, not much but some.  It has been sitting in a safety deposit box for years.  I need to check and see what it's worth these days but it'll amount to less than 5%, probably less than 2% to 3% of my portfolio.  To be honest, I can't remember why I bought it.  I probably got it at the same time that I was messing around with gold mining stocks.  That was pretty lucrative for a while but it was a wild ride, too wild for me and I got out of it.  

Actually holding gold is one of those things that I've never been sure of.  Sure, it's pretty and shiny and it makes you feel good when you hold and handle it but as an investment or a hedge I'm just not sure it's worth it.  I'm sure that there are charts out there that will show how good or bad an investment it really is without all the hype.  

Now, if you're a Doomsday advocate and want it for trade after the world civilizations collapse, you might do better with cans of baked beans.  

I suppose it all depends on why you want to have it.  If it makes you feel better and more comfortable about the future to have it then go ahead, buy it.  I don't think that I have the right attitude or outlook to get too heavily in to it.


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## Kane

One thing has always been certain: an once of gold will buy you a very nice suit.


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## jimbo

IMO, gold has its positives and negatives as an investment. You hear more about the positives than the negatives.  Some negatives:

We tend to forget that gold prices are no more stable than any other investment.  That ounce you buy today at $1165 cost somebody nearly $1900 a couple of years ago.  

Gold in your possession is not that easy to sell.  Quality and quantity must be verified prior to offering it on the open market if you hold physical possession.  

Storage is a problem.  Security is a must, and security is an expensive problem.   
Safe deposit boxes are not free, home storage is easily breached.

Generally, gold is bought at retail and sold at wholesale.  The spread can be small or large, but it's still a spread.

Some of the negatives can be lessened by purchasing directly from your bank and storing on premises, and/or by buying US guaranteed coins, but the problems do not go away.

Again, just my opinion.


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## waybomb

I'm taking the baked beans route, thank you.


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## Catavenger

I have a free safety deposit box. I pissed and moaned to the bank  that I wasn't getting any damned interest so I got a freebie box. I have ONE Krugerand in it. I will have to see how money situation is next year. November the first half of my house tax has to be paid. Now I am going to have to start buy  Christmas presents for all the in-laws & outlaws. Most of them I rarely see and I'm lucky if I get a card from them much less a present.
Then at the end of December I have to pay my house insurance. Always something.

I do have some fairly old silver coins  (that were my mom's) at home in a safe.
 Where do you buy your coins?


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## waybomb

And when the bank closes and you cannot get to the safety deposit box?


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## Catavenger

Waybomb yep I've thought about that too. That's why I only have one coin there. Just like they always say to diversify where your investments are; I think it might  be good to diversify where you keep  your "booty" as the pirates would call it.


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## bczoom

Anyone watching precious metals today?
http://www.kitco.com/charts/livesilver.html

Huge upward spike this morning.  16.20 up to 16.89


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## waybomb

An it hasn't done squat in two years.

Gold is worthless. It is not worth anything more than the paper stock certs are printed on.

If it ever gets so bad that gold actually becomes money and cash money is used for starting fires, what are you going to need currency of any sort for?

There won't be any energy, there won't be any internet, all you will have is your garden and move south so you don't need heat. Al had it right.


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## Mr. Bill

I don't see precious metal being so much of an investment. I do like precious metals because they are tangible assets. I wouldn't go all in on precious metals but I think everyone should be holding some.


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## FrancSevin

Mr. Bill said:


> I don't see precious metal being so much of an investment. I do like precious metals because they are tangible assets. I wouldn't go all in on precious metals but I think everyone should be holding some.


 
It is fun to reach back into 2015 thread postings and see the prognostications of sofa experts.


The metals market has been promising a silver boom for 10 years now. I don't see it coming. Not then, not now.

Gold OTOH has made a recent rise from the doldrums of $1,150 per ounce. I cannot connect it to anything other than some people's fears that Trump impeachment might happen.

Again unlikely.  So if you didn't buy last year at$1,150 ,you missed it. if you did, time to unload while it is high.

Or better, just hold it. Gold is only good for solid, slow , long term hedge against inflation.  But then this advice comes from my sofa.


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## mla2ofus

We've bought silver rounds equivalent to 10% of our savings. BO prompted us to buy silver!! 
Mike


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## FrancSevin

I did OK with Gold during the Obama years.  Mostly because I sold a car to a jeweler who paid me in Gold coins,,,;  ie no commission on the sale. Gold was down at the time.  

When my son bought his house, real estate was down and gold was up so it worked out well.

But that was as much luck as it was cunning.


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## Mr. Bill

I like silver as of today. It is very undervalued. Currently, silver prices are very low. Silver has always out performed gold in precious metal bull markets. That being said, I like physical precious metals because they are a tangible asset class. 

I also like real estate, dividend stocks and cash.


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## m1west

I bought 1000 oz of silver about 11years ago at about $15 its $17 now not the great investment I hoped for. I plan to make it part of grandpas treasure that I am going to hide at my cabin on 80 acres in the mountains that I am leaving all of them in a trust never to be sold. The treasure will be my way of getting the kids and grandkids to go use the property and look for it after I am gone. The real treasure is family hanging out together what ever the reason. Marty


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## mla2ofus

BO made us buy silver as a hedge against hard times he might cause.


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## FrancSevin

In the last five years silver has gone up 10%. Gold has gone up 20%
In the last 20 years, silver has gone up 226% whilst Gold has risen 400%
Commissions are 5%or about half of what silver has risen in the last fiver years. Against the devalued dollar, that's not performance.
https://www.goldprice.org/
I keep hearing silver is the next big metals boom. Just not seeing it.

Gold is worth 8 times silver value. So these numbers for gold are BIG.

I am mostly out of metals right now. Stocks have doubled since Obama years. So has my small business. That's where my capital is being placed. In the last three years we have doubled our capacity. Three new production lines added to the six we had in 2016.


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## EastTexFrank

I still have a little gold locked away.  I had almost forgotten about it.  I need to go visit it one of these days.  I still don't think that precious metals are much of an investment but for some reason it is comforting to have.  I still haven't figured out that when the world goes to hell and paper money becomes worthless, who is going to be buying all this gold and what will they be buying it with?  That gets me back to my baked beans analogy of 4-years ago.


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## jimbo

m1west said:


> I bought 1000 oz of silver about 11years ago at about $15 its $17 now not the great investment I hoped for. I plan to make it part of grandpas treasure that I am going to hide at my cabin on 80 acres in the mountains that I am leaving all of them in a trust never to be sold. The treasure will be my way of getting the kids and grandkids to go use the property and look for it after I am gone. The real treasure is family hanging out together what ever the reason. Marty



Add to that that you bought at retail.  You'll sell at wholesale.  Which means you'll break even.  

Back in '15, I said that metals IMO are a commodity, not an investment.  That's still my position.


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## FrancSevin

EastTexFrank said:


> I still have a little gold locked away. I had almost forgotten about it. I need to go visit it one of these days. I still don't think that precious metals are much of an investment but for some reason it is comforting to have. I still haven't figured out that when the world goes to hell and paper money becomes worthless, who is going to be buying all this gold and what will they be buying it with? That gets me back to my baked beans analogy of 4-years ago.


I too have a little of it stashed away.

Here's the thing, if the SHTF then paper money will be worthless.  Are you gonna buy milk and bread with a Gold Eagle?

A big mac might go for Gold but that eagle could cost you your life.

Keep it for financial security, but not much is needed when hyper inflation happens.  After all, that's when gold really goes up.  

As for milk and bread, when money goes to hell, you can buy those items by swinging a hammer or digging a ditch for it.


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## m1west

FrancSevin said:


> I too have a little of it stashed away.
> 
> Here's the thing, if the SHTF then paper money will be worthless.  Are you gonna buy milk and bread with a Gold Eagle?
> 
> A big mac might go for Gold but that eagle could cost you your life.
> 
> Keep it for financial security, but not much is needed when hyper inflation happens.  After all, that's when gold really goes up.
> 
> As for milk and bread, when money goes to hell, you can buy those items by swinging a hammer or digging a ditch for it.



if that were to happen bullets are the best investment, with bullets you could keep what you have and if necessary get what you need. Marty


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## FrancSevin

m1west said:


> if that were to happen bullets are the best investment, with bullets you could keep what you have and if necessary get what you need. Marty



Agreed but, you cannot eat bullets.


I keep both bullets and TP for the had times. I also have enough standard light bulbs to light up a small city.

I have a freezer full of dried beans, flour, sugar and rice.  All will last for months and years even if the power goes out.  Not because I fear the apocalypse, but because I own a small business.

I can and have swung a hammer for a living. Also dug ditches.


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## m1west

Not trying to hijack the thread but I think we are closer to a social breakdown now than when BO was in. I am feeling the Dim crazies like Shiff and some others may try to seize power using dis information and fake crimes to unilaterally impeach Trump outside of due process similar to the way the Nazi party did it prior to ww2. Only here and now 1/2 of the people won't roll over for it and it will be on. Marty


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## FrancSevin

m1west said:


> Not trying to hijack the thread but I think we are closer to a social breakdown now than when BO was in. I am feeling the Dim crazies like Shiff and some others may try to seize power using dis information and fake crimes to unilaterally impeach Trump outside of due process similar to the way the Nazi party did it prior to ww2. Only here and now 1/2 of the people won't roll over for it and it will be on. Marty



Agreed. With Obama there was, at least a belief in the possibility of a free election turning the power over to a Republican and restoration of there public as the founders intended. But after3 years of coup attempts by the left, I to worry that the progressives have become too desperate to change the nation by public opinion. 

With Antifa, failure by big city mayors, and some state governors, to enforce law and order, we may be beyond redemption by civilized, due process, means.

I suggest to keep your powder close at hand and dry.


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## EastTexFrank

FrancSevin said:


> With Antifa, failure by big city mayors, and some state governors, to enforce law and order, we may be beyond redemption by civilized, due process, means.
> 
> I suggest to keep your powder close at hand and dry.



Agreed.

Being old, I have gone through umpteen ammo shortages.  Well, I went through the first one, the rest didn't affect me.


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## Bamby

EastTexFrank said:


> I still haven't figured out that when the world goes to hell and paper money becomes worthless, who is going to be buying all this gold and what will they be buying it with?  That gets me back to my baked beans analogy of 4-years ago.



It's really quite simple gold, silver, copper and other commodities will be used, traded or bartered for goods that are needed. Historically commodities have always been utilized as money for trade purposes. 

So what we come around to is we need a noncorroding useful asset that also does not spoil or need any care in storage that could be used for barter. Bullets could work but there are so many different calibers to cover and they can even get pretty fuggly if not stored in a conditioned climate.

So the war has started and we're all dug in till it's passed or over..... Yea right but have you considered the thermonuclear bomb that exploded far enough away that you survived the blast... But the radiation levels will shortly kill you if you don't quickly pack up and move to a safer area. 

This is where gold and silver will show it's worth. A person ain't packing along enough lead to utilize as barter as needed but one could manage to take along enough precious metals that could make the difference between life and death.


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## FrancSevin

Bamby said:


> It's really quite simple gold, silver, copper and other commodities will be used, traded or bartered for goods that are needed. Historically commodities have always been utilized as money for trade purposes.
> 
> So what we come around to is we need a noncorroding useful asset that also does not spoil or need any care in storage that could be used for barter. Bullets could work but there are so many different calibers to cover and they can even get pretty fuggly if not stored in a conditioned climate.
> 
> So the war has started and we're all dug in till it's passed or over..... Yea right but have you considered the thermonuclear bomb that exploded far enough away that you survived the blast... But the radiation levels will shortly kill you if you don't quickly pack up and move to a safer area.
> 
> This is where gold and silver will show it's worth. A person ain't packing along enough lead to utilize as barter as needed but one could manage to take along enough precious metals that could make the difference between life and death.


 
Perhaps we should be but, I'm not too worried about the war you suggest.  I think we have been referring to the internal civil conflict.  Thermo nuclear would be unlikely.

As for the rest of you post yes, commodities will be useful when the paper money is worthless.  Remember one bullet used to buy a cowpoke one shot of whisky.

So, when the SHTF be sure you either have or can make bullets, gunpowder, or whisky.  You'll be fine.


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## Bamby

FrancSevin said:


> Perhaps we should be but, I'm not too worried about the war you suggest.  I think we have been referring to the internal civil conflict.  Thermo nuclear would be unlikely.



So OK so the mood and circumstances are getting white hot in your community and you find you're primarily surrounded by liberals. And even though they're mostly full of hot air many of them have armed themselves with liberal approved weapons of destruction. Though their weapons are mostly limited to hand to hand fighting their's just to many of them fend off. After all you got to sleep sometime and they know that. So you come to the realization you need to pack up some necessities and find some folks that share your values.



> This is where gold and silver will show it's worth. A person ain't packing along enough lead to utilize as barter as needed but one could manage to take along enough precious metals that could make the difference between life and death.


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## FrancSevin

Bamby said:


> So OK so the mood and circumstances are getting white hot in your community and you find you're primarily surrounded by liberals. And even though they're mostly full of hot air many of them have armed themselves with liberal approved weapons of destruction. Though their weapons are mostly limited to hand to hand fighting their's just to many of them fend off. After all you got to sleep sometime and they know that. So you come to the realization you need to pack up some necessities and find some folks that share your values.


 
Gold and silver are fine if defended with lead. When the SHTF one can barter "for" lead or "with" it.

Gold, bullets and TP. Keep them in good supply


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