# I Challenge All The Aviators, Builders and Engineers Here At FF…



## Lia

…to give me just 90 minutes of your time and attention, and to give your own, every day working knowledge and assessment of the theories put forward, here in this video. 

I’m hoping that I have a good enuff reputation for level-headedness on the net, and here at ff, that you will give me the benefit of the doubt, and watch this video (part of a series), which may challenge some pre-conceived acceptance and notions that you all may hold. Or, even that you might be able to add to the theories, or even to challenge them. I know that you will do so with honesty and integrity, because that is what I have come to expect from mostly all of you here.

I’ve directed this post at the Aviators (because the first third of the video relates to aviation concepts, principles, science, and flight dynamics. The second part of the video deals with the principles and science of masonry, building, construction tools and so on…

And the last part deals mainly in engineering, electricity and other things to do with construction. There is, surrounding the whole, a part for the ‘Theologians’ here, to comment upon also. Indeed it does rather challenge some pre-conceived notions on ancient history too; but I hope everyone will take it in the sense of an academic exercise, and give your opinions freely, and honestly, but most of all, with good manners and with an open mind.  

Many thanks.  

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuFv6sPLM-k&NR=1"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuFv6sPLM-k&NR=1[/ame]


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## Cowboy

Very interesting topic Lia and I will be sure to watch it as soon as I have time. I hope others will as well and share their thoughts as I find this topic very interesting no matter what one's beleifs are .


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## Lia

Cowboy said:


> Very interesting topic Lia and I will be sure to watch it as soon as I have time. I hope others will as well and share their thoughts as I find this topic very interesting no matter what one's beleifs are .


 
Thanks Cowboy. I find it enthralling also... I'll be interested to see what those in the construction business here think of second part of the video.


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## Cowboy

Well Lia , I got through the video you posted as well as the first episode, and found both very educational and interesting . Lots of information I hadn't been aware of before and I've watched tons of shows on these types of subjects . Lots of questions to be answered for sure . 

I just cant beleive the skeptics and so called debunkers arguments by saying " Big deal or its just a coinincidence " But I guess everyone has their own agendas and reasoning for being so closed minded . I guess thats just proof right there that not only the ancient egyptians were at least as smart as us , they wern't so stuck on theirselves and closeminded so much they bit their noses off to despite their faces . When it appears to be clear that even with our technology and equipment we have today they say it may very well be imposible to recreate what our ancestors did . 

I do wish others would take the time to watch and give their opinions though , not neccesarily about the alien or UFO part which most are afraid to discuss in public unlike a few of us . But more like you addressed in the title to share their thoughts of how things were built without machinery and what the meanings of the aerenotical type artifacts and drawings could mean . 


To those out there that do find an interest here is the main index page of all of the series and episodes so you can watch them in order like I plan to do . Now I better get some work done today. 


http://www.youtube.com/user/Time4TruthDOTorg#p/a


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## fogtender

There is a lot of stuff in the Universe that we don't understand..  Until a few Centuries ago, the experts claimed the world was flat and you can sail off the edge of the world.


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## Cowboy

fogtender said:


> There is a lot of stuff in the Universe that we don't understand.. Until a few Centuries ago, the experts claimed the world was flat and you can sail off the edge of the world.


 Thats very true Foggy, but what bothers me even more are those that choose to ignore things from the past without even questioning wether theres a posibility there might be something more to it then meets the eye . These videos should at least be interesting to anyone that cares about history or how we got here IMHO, because there are lots ofquestions to be answered. 

  You dont have to beleive anything , just sort it out and think for yourselves. But to beleive that we are the most inteligent form of life is just keeping a closed mind , once again just my opinion. But thats also why the world is in the shape it is today , because people cant think for theirselves in most cases, and thats not opinion its fact . 

  There is as many people in the world that beleive there is more inteligent life form in the universe and at the very least look at the posibilitys and evidence presented from long before scientists and archaeologist's existed , as there are that dont. 

I just dont understand why there aren't more people that dont at least want to discuss it, other then the fact that those that do are looked at like crackpots and afraid to even get involved in a discussion. Once again I am not trying to convince anyone of anything , I just find it a very interesting topic and would like others thoughts no matter what they are.


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## fogtender

You are very right about people not either wanting to discuss it or don't care.  To me it has always been a point of interest.  The fact that mankind generally believed we are the only ones in the vast Universe is just plain arrogance, in as much as those that believed the Earth was flat. 

Making a simple electro magnet at one point in our history could have gotten you burned at the Stake.  As would lighting a simple modern safety match in the Dark Ages.

There is energy out there we can't even grasp at this point in our history that children of the future will play with like a toy.


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## RedRocker

I love this stuff.


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## Catavenger

Sorry even if i had all the time in the world I wouldn't waste it watching that crap.


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## Cowboy

Catavenger said:


> Sorry even if i had all the time in the world I wouldn't waste it watching that crap.


 You dont find ancient egyptian history interesting ?


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## Catavenger

> You dont find ancient egyptian history interesting


 Not particularly.


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## pirate_girl

I haven't taken the 90 minutes as yet to put aside to view this, but I will Laurie.
It must be pretty fascinating if you posted it. 
TIA!


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## Catavenger

I watched about two minutes of it and "what if" was repeated a dozen and one  times. No I don't think that  the pyramids in Egypt were built by space aliens I think they were built by old fashioned slave labor. It's amazing what people can accomplish when being beaten with whips.


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## pirate_girl

I read Chariots Of The Gods? when I was a teenybopper, along with other such books and have enjoyed the exploration into such things over the years.
There may not be many truths I could embrace, but it's interesting to say the least.


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## Lia

Catavenger said:


> I watched about two minutes of it and "what if" was repeated a dozen and one times. No I don't think that the pyramids in Egypt were built by space aliens I think they were built by old fashioned slave labor. It's amazing what people can accomplish when being beaten with whips.


 
Don't be silly! No matter how much one was beaten, or even if a 101 slaves were beaten to a pulp, they still wouldn't be able to carve granite, or drill holes in it without the proper machinery, nor would they be able to moves several tons of granite from miles away without cranes; and certainly they couldn't have carved it without diamond tipped tools.

You must have watched far more than two minutes of it since the first third of the video was taken up with ancient aero-dynamic technology, and not about the Pyramids. 

You think you know better than Albert Einstein did, or others such as the guys below, many of whom are overseers for the defense of the planet, or have liased with our defense departments? And these guys listed are just *the tip of the iceberg!* 

"Given the millions of billions of Earth-like planets, life elsewhere in the Universe without a doubt, does exist. In the vastness of the Universe we are not alone."
*--The Bible According to Albert Einstein*

"It is my thesis that flying saucers are real and that they are space ships from another solar system.There is no doubt in my mind that these objects are interplanetary craft of some sort. I and my colleagues are confident that they do not originate in our solar system."
*--Dr. Herman Oberth* (The father of modern rockerty) 

"I am completely convinced that UFOs have an out-of-world basis." 
*--Dr. Walther Riedel* (Once chief designer and research director at the 
German rocket center in Peenemunde) 

"The possibility of reduced-time interstellar travel either by advanced extraterrestrial civilizations at present or ourselves in the future, is not fundamentally constrained by physical principles."
*-- Dr. Harold Puthoff* (Director, Institute for advanced studies at Austin, Author of fundamentals of Quantum Electronics)

The least improbable explanation is that these things are artificial and controlled ... My opinion for some time has been that they have an extraterrestrial origin." 
*--Dr. Maurice Biot* (leading aerodynamicists and mathematical physicist)

"The evidence is overwhelming that Planet Earth is being visited by intelligently controlled extraterrestrial spacecraft. In other words, SOME UFOs are alien spacecraft. Most are not. It's clear from the Opinion Polls and my own experience, that indeed most people accept the notion that SOME UFOs are alien spacecraft. The greater the education, the MORE likely to accept this proposition"
*-- Stanton Friedman *Defense Contractor Nuclear Physicist 

"Extraterrestrial contact is a real phenomenon. The Vatican is receiving much information about extraterrestrials and their contacts with humans from its Nuncios (embassies) in various countries, such as Mexico, Chile and Venezuela." 
*-- Monsignor Corrado Balducci *As stated 5 different times on Italian TV** (Vatican theologian insider close to the Pope,Monsignor Balducci said that he is on a Vatican commission looking into extraterrestrial encounters, and how to cope with the emerging general realization of extraterrestrial contact.) 

"We must insist upon full access to disks recovered. For instance, in the La case the Army grabbed it and would not let us have it for cursory examination." 
*--J Edgar Hoover*

Want more?


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## Lia

fogtender said:


> You are very right about people not either wanting to discuss it or don't care. To me it has always been a point of interest. The fact that mankind generally believed we are the only ones in the vast Universe is just plain arrogance, in as much as those that believed the Earth was flat.


 

And there are still those that believe so today, despite all the evidence to the contrary. They even have a website. It would be an exercise in futility to try to spend time explaining to folk with that type of mental blockage, and wilful blindness that we have proof that the Earth is not flat.





> Making a simple electro magnet at one point in our history could have gotten you burned at the Stake. As would lighting a simple modern safety match in the Dark Ages.


 

Quite! Galileo spent years under house arrest after a farcical trial, because he supported Copernicus’ claim that the Earth was not the centre of the universe. And others have been tortured and put to death for much less, as you say…





> There is energy out there we can't even grasp at this point in our history that children of the future will play with like a toy.


 

There is indeed. The laws of physics, one can assume, will not be any different to any other species, or inhabitants of other universes. However, we cannot be that arrogant that we believe that we know all there is to know about physics. Science is changing daily, and with each new study. What is hard cold fact today could be overturned tomorrow, literally. Good points!



pirate_girl said:


> I read Chariots Of The Gods? when I was a teenybopper, along with other such books and have enjoyed the exploration into such things over the years.
> There may not be many truths I could embrace, but it's interesting to say the least.


 

Yes, I read ‘Chariots of the God’ too. It is indeed an interesting subject. But, you know, von Daniken wasn’t the first author to publish this concept. Others had come before him, and many prominent folk concur, Physicists, Scientists, Astronomers, world leaders, for example, have all gone on record at some time, to expound upon this fascinating topic. I know that many here are religious, or believe in a God, and this was never meant to be a thread about baiting theologians; it was purely meant to be academic as a study in the concept of ‘Ancient Aliens.’ And, indeed, in 2008 the Vatican came onboard also:  



> *The Pope's chief astronomer says that life on Mars cannot be ruled out. *
> 
> Writing in the Vatican newspaper, the astronomer, Father Gabriel Funes, said intelligent beings created by God could exist in outer space.
> Father Funes, director of the Vatican Observatory near Rome, is a respected scientist who collaborates with universities around the world.
> The search for forms of extraterrestrial life, he says, does not contradict belief in God.
> The official Vatican newspaper headlines his article 'Aliens Are My Brother'.
> 
> [URL="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7399661.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7399661.stm[/URL]


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## Cowboy

> I watched about two minutes of it and "what if" was repeated a dozen and one times. No I don't think that the pyramids in Egypt were built by space aliens I think they were built by old fashioned slave labor. It's amazing what people can accomplish when being beaten with whips.


 



> Don't be silly! No matter how much one was beaten, or even if a 101 slaves were beaten to a pulp, they still wouldn't be able to carve granite, or drill holes in it without the proper machinery, nor would they be able to moves several tons of granite from miles away without cranes; and certainly they couldn't have carved it without diamond tipped tools.
> 
> You must have watched far more than two minutes of it since the first third of the video was taken up with ancient aero-dynamic technology, and not about the Pyramids.


 
I agree with Lia, Catavenger. Since I watched the first two episodes in full "twice" to make sure I didn't miss anything, you must have either zipped through it to pick out a few points that meet your agenda or you truly are not interested in it enough to take the time to learn some interesting facts . 

The fact is they designed small trinkets that have been proven to be capable of flight "by design" long before any scientific evidence that flight was even possible. 

There were experts interviewed that state even with todays technology and equipment available we do not have the ability to do such precise work as the pyramids or other ancient structures at all much less in 20 years time which is the time they were thought to be built in . Nor do we have the tools it would take. 

Also in the video it states that certain stones would have had to have been softened somehow to be erected the way that they fit together . As far as I know there is no technology I am aware of where you can melt or mold solid granite to do such a thing . But if you view the vid they show several instances where it could be the only explanation of how they fit together. 

No where in the vids I have watched so far did anyone even suggest that aliens built any of these structures, but that they might have supplyed the knowledge and possibly the tools to be able to do it. 

As well as the fact that in different areas all over the world the same techniques and types of structures were being built and thats pretty hard to take as a coincidence that people that never had met each other learned to do the same things in exactlly the same way. Like the several locations where they had laid out the planets and how they are placed in the universe. One planet our scientists wern't even aware of its exsistance for 100's of years after they were built. 

I just dont understand how so many can not keep an open mind and at least ask yourselves the questions that have not been answered even by our experts. 

At any rate I just wish people would take the time to view the vids so they could offer an honest opinion rather then just calling it "crap" . But thats what the arrogant sceptics do when they cant explain things nor want to take the time to learn more about them . Arrogance is the only word fitting for those that beleive we are the most inteligent life in the universe.


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## Catavenger

Only humans would build something as useless as a pyramid. The Egyptians did however outsource their security.


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## fogtender

Well maybe they had a reason to build them.  Maybe in 5,000 years someone will find an aircraft carrier, then they may wonder why we needed such a stupid big boat. 

We may not have a clue to why they built them!

We may never know, but they did build them and they did so with something we can't grasp as of yet!


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## tsaw

I did watch the entire video. I forced myself to. It was painful. I wanted to jump in and comment early. But Lia asked for 90 minutes - and I gave it. My opinion is this: If you are really opened minded - then you have to question this dramatic video presentation.
OK... lets say I buy into the theory of the ETs coming to earth long ago. 
Lets say - it's true. WHERE THE HELL ARE THEY TODAY?  
So,... they were here and visited earth... and just vanished?
They helped us with all that technology and then went AWOL?

And for the ones that say we HAVE UFOs all around the place... why would they help us cut rocks - but not land and help us in other ways?

Just my opinion after suffering for 90 minutes.


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## Catavenger

> ... why would they help us cut rocks - but not land and help us in other ways?


Because they like pyramids?


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## Lia

tsaw said:


> I did watch the entire video. I forced myself to. It was painful. I wanted to jump in and comment early. But Lia asked for 90 minutes - and I gave it.


 
Thank you tsaw. 




> My opinion is this: If you are really opened minded - then you have to question this dramatic video presentation.


 
But, is it any more dramatic than what all religions tell us? That a bearded being in the sky waved a magic wand and zapped us all into existence, along with a habitable planet, food, foliage and all of this accomplished in six days?

Think about it; every ancient civilization from all races tells of how they their ancestors came from the stars, or that they were visited by beings/deities from the stars, and shown the rudiments of agriculture, art, science, building and other achievements. Every single one insist that the planets was seeded buy alien deities.

The bible tells us that we were made in Gods image; ever wonder how it is then, that we are flesh and blood, but he is not? Or, how about this; the bible tells us: Genesis 1:26

*“**Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."*

Well, there you have it, straight from the horse’s mouth! He speaks in the plural of *‘us’* and *‘our.’ *Why would he say that? Who was he speaking to? But, more importantly, who were the eye-witnesses to these accounts? These events are no less fantastical than ancient aliens seeding this planet, which, I repeat*, every ancient civilization records them as either visiting their ancestors or of them being their ancestors. *

*And it came to pass, when man began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair and they took them wives of all which they chose. (Gen 6:1-2)*

*The ‘sons’ of the ‘gods?’ *It’s quite okay for people who believe this, but any that believe ancient aliens visited earth, are barmy? Its okay to believe tales of men such as Methuselah reaching astronomical ages, and Abrahams Sarah reaching her nineties yet still falling pregnant, as did John the Baptists mother, Elizabeth, but to believe in ancient aliens visiting earth is unacceptable? C’mon man! Please…

*All ancient civilizations* make mention of places such as ‘The City Of The Gods’ or have monuments dedicated to these ‘Gods. Where ever one goes around the world, one comes across these stories. Why would anyone believe it to be irrelevant to question or research these things? Give me one good reason for why one should believe the various stories from religions and the bible, such as the Garden of Eden (which incidentally, cannot be found, or researched), but one can locate the pyramid of Giza, which scientists and archaeologists cannot still replicate, nor can they state with certainty just how the pyramids were built.

We have been told  that these immense buildings were memorial tombs to the dead. To date, not one single tomb has ever been found in any of them, no bodies either. The 2nd to largest pyramid in the world, the largest one at Giza has been found to be riddled with tunnels that have, to date, only been viewed by camera, via a robot, since they are inaccessible to man. But, several of these4 tunnels have been found to lead to other inaccessible chambers and tunnels. They are a complete mystery to man, still.

Lets look at the Dogon tribe. The fascinating Dogon legends speak of Jupiter's four moons and Saturn's rings, which were not seen by human beings until the invention of the telescope. They speak of the star Sirius and of a pair of invisible companions. One of them circles Sirius every fifty years, the legends declare, and is made of a metal that is the heaviest thing in the universe. Astronomers have discovered that such an object (called "Sirius-B") *does exist* but only the most sophisticated and sensitive instruments -- unavailable, of course, to the Dogons -- can detect it. 
The planets circle the sun, the tribesmen believe *(and astronomy confirms),* in elliptical orbits. And planets with different kinds of people on them circle six other stars in the sky -- so the legends have it. 
Who told the Dogons about Sirius and about the other space science secrets? Author Robert K. G· Temple (_The Sirius Mystery_, St, Martin's Press, 1975) claims to be able to trace the Sirius-B myth back through Egyptian mythology to Sumerian mythology, thus establishing the certainty that the informants were extraterrestrials.
The star Sirius is certainly no stranger to mysteries. As the brightest star in the sky it was known and worshiped by ancient civilizations. Its appearance in the dawn sky over Egypt warned of the impending Nile floods and the summer's heat and marked the beginning of the Egyptian calendar. 
Strangely, ancient records explicitly list Sirius as one of six "red stars." The other five are still seen as red but from the time of Arab astronomers to the present day Sirius has been blue-white. 



> OK... lets say I buy into the theory of the ETs coming to earth long ago.





> Lets say - it's true. WHERE THE HELL ARE THEY TODAY?


 
Well, where did the Mayans go? They practically disappeared overnight, and speculation is rife with theories, but I suspect the truth of the matter is that they either inter-mixed with other societies, or, they flew back to the legendary Atlantis, which is where they claimed to have come from originally.

Why is it that some can believe that we are made ‘in the image of ‘gods’ (remember the plurals), yet they cannot believe that we are alien ourselves?




> So,... they were here and visited earth... and just vanished?





> They helped us with all that technology and then went AWOL?


 
Just as did the ‘Sons of the Gods’ and the Giants (the Nephilim). Just as the Mayans did; and the Atlantians. What is myth, what is fiction, what is fact? Can one differentiate between myths and religious texts? 




> And for the ones that say we HAVE UFOs all around the place... why would they help us cut rocks - but not land and help us in other ways?


 
One could ask the same for all ‘Gods’ deities, Angels, etc; all of which you seem to be implying that it is okay to believe in, but one is cuckoo to believe that ancient aliens might have visited earth, as ALL ancient civilizations have recorded. 




> Just my opinion after suffering for 90 minutes.


 
Well, I’m tempted to call you a wussy, lol, but since you are a true gentleman I will refrain, and just say er… there there dear.


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## Cowboy

Catavenger said:


> Only humans would build something as useless as a pyramid. The Egyptians did however outsource their security.


 
  IF you would have watched the series of videos it they spoke of some very interesting reasoning for the purpose of the pyramids as well as the rather unique location to where they were located. 

  But theres no sense in me trying convince you into watching them because you obviously have no interest in ancient history.


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## Catavenger

The  Spanish killed the  Mayans.


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## Lia

Catavenger said:


> The Spanish killed the Mayans.


 
If'n I were you, I'd quit before you show any more ignorance of history. The Spanish conquered the Aztecs, not the Mayans!


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## Catavenger

http://www.sup.org/book.cgi?id=2182


Yep I am just STUPID


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## Lia

Catavenger said:


> http://www.sup.org/book.cgi?id=2182
> 
> 
> Yep I am just STUPID


 
You know, for someone who professes to have no interest in ancient history, you sure seem to have a lot to say about it, nothing erudite or of substance, but prolific and pointless. Ahh, wait, its the religious personal thing, ain't it. Petty. 

Some folk are Atheists; get over it!


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## Lia

> *The Aztecs and Mayans were at different geographical locations as well. While the former ruled the roost in Central America the latter held sway in the western South America.* The Mayans are an older people and were around a thousand years before the Aztecs even arrived in Central America*. The Aztecs were the dominant culture in Mexico at the time of Cortez’s arrival in Mexico in the 1500s. The Mayans by then had deteriorated into a decadent and decrepit race living on past glory*.
> 
> The Mayans still live in the Yucatan in much the same way as their post classic ancestors. *The Aztecs, who on the other hand were decimated by the Spaniards,* can perhaps be glimpsed among the present day Mexicans. Their languages too were different. The Aztecs spoke Nahuatl, while the Mayans spoke Maya. Their names for God too were different. Aztecs called him Quetzalcoatl and the Mayans had Kukulcan.
> 
> 
> Read more: Difference Between Aztecs and Mayans | Difference Between | Aztecs vs Mayans [URL="http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/difference-between-aztecs-and-mayans/#ixzz1We1iip4j"]http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/difference-between-aztecs-and-mayans/#ixzz1We1iip4j[/URL]




Just because its written on the net, doesn't necessarily make it history.


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## Catavenger

Lia - lets us just agree to disagree if you wish to believe that earth has been visited by aliens from other planets and they built the pyramids (or anything else,) feel free to. You certainly have the right to your opinion. I also have the right to my opinion and I don't believe that anyone but humans built the pyramids. Millions of people agree with me. I don't think that having that opinion makes us "stupid" or 'petty."


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## Lia

Catavenger said:


> Lia - lets us just agree to disagree if you wish to believe that earth has been visited by aliens from other planets and they built the pyramids (or anything else,) feel free to. You certainly have the right to your opinion. I also have the right to my opinion and I don't believe that anyone but humans built the pyramids. Millions of people agree with me. I don't think that having that opinion makes us "stupid" or 'petty."


 
That would be good if you kept to your side of the bargain; unfortunately you're just using the thread to bait, since by your own admission you have no interest in the topic.

However, since you have offered an olive branch I shall desist from retaliation if you are sincere in your offer.

Peace.


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## fogtender

Catavenger said:


> http://www.sup.org/book.cgi?id=2182
> 
> 
> Yep I am just STUPID



Alot of the killing was from the diseases that the Spanish brought to the new world and not the sword, same thing that killed a lot of the American Indians... In their case it was small pox.

But the guys that write the history like to make it more historic and noble with swords and winchesters!  Flu, smallpox and VD just don't make it noble...


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## Cowboy

Catavenger said:


> Sorry even if i had all the time in the world I wouldn't waste it watching that crap.


 


Catavenger said:


> Because they like pyramids?


 


Catavenger said:


> Only humans would build something as useless as a pyramid. The Egyptians did however outsource their security.


 


Catavenger said:


> Lia - lets us just agree to disagree if you wish to believe that earth has been visited by aliens from other planets and they built the pyramids (or anything else,) feel free to. You certainly have the right to your opinion. I also have the right to my opinion and I don't believe that anyone but humans built the pyramids. Millions of people agree with me. I don't think that having that opinion makes us "stupid" or 'petty."


 
With all due respect CA , not one post you have made has been very usefull to what appears to be a fairlly serious topic to the original poster as well as maybe a few others . In the OP's post She asked for anyone to take the time to view the video and if anyone does to discuss your thoughts . 

That being said, no one expects to change anyones mind or opinions , it is just an interesting set of videos from the history chanell that I think are quite well done and very informative leading one to make up their own mind . If that doesn't interest you fine, but I see no need for you to continue to push your opinion on others by calling this topic "crap" .


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## Catavenger

For Lia


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## Lia

Catavenger said:


> For Lia


 
Thank you.


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## fogtender

Another reason that the Spanish did so well is the Indians thought the Spanish in their shining Armor were Gods...  (Which always reminded me of how Aliens would have been dressed) by the time that they realized the Spaniards were just humans, they had already departed with a lot of the gold and treasures given to them as "Gods".

By that time, most of the Spanish troops were slaughtered, but the diseases were in full swing!


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## Cowboy

Just an FYI, My wife and I have watched season one episodes 1 thru 5 and they just keep getting more interesting in my opinion and further more my wife is one of the biggest skeptics on this subject I know. She did agree to watch at least 1 video with an open mind and now has become very interested in them now and looking forward to watching the rest of the series. 

 She agrees with me that the videos done ( by the history channel ) are very well done and leave a lot of unanswered questions without bias like many of their other series on other interesting subjects . It sure beats the hell out of the reality type shows that tv has to offer these days, so I still dont understand why at least some folks wouldn't find them interesting as we have ourselves. I just would love to here others thoughts on them if they are of any interest to anyone else. I know your out there.


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## fogtender

Cowboy said:


> Just an FYI, My wife and I have watched season one episodes 1 thru 5 and they just keep getting more interesting in my opinion and further more my wife is one of the biggest skeptics on this subject I know. She did agree to watch at least 1 video with an open mind and now has become very interested in them now and looking forward to watching the rest of the series.
> 
> She agrees with me that the videos done ( by the history channel ) are very well done and leave a lot of unanswered questions without bias like many of their other series on other interesting subjects . It sure beats the hell out of the reality type shows that tv has to offer these days, so I still dont understand why at least some folks wouldn't find them interesting as we have ourselves. I just would love to here others thoughts on them if they are of any interest to anyone else. I know your out there.




I'm a history junkie, so I watch that channel a lot, as well as this series.

When you look at the overall picture of history through multiple windows and not just one window that most people look through, a lot of your views change as Lia's clearly has.

We think nothing as kids having an ant farm, they are totally in bliss of our existence, but yet we watch them.   It isn't a very big stretch to imagine that something has been watching us in the same way for centuries... Maybe a little heads up help here and there to point us in the right direction... or not.   Maybe they are our "Gods"....


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## SShepherd

fogtender said:


> Alot of the killing was from the diseases that the Spanish brought to the new world and not the sword, same thing that killed a lot of the American Indians... In their case it was small pox.
> 
> But the guys that write the history like to make it more historic and noble with swords and winchesters! Flu, smallpox and VD just don't make it noble...


 
well, initially, alot were put to the sword and whip before disease took over

and as far as the american indians, more died of lead poisoning (ya, there were a few incidents of biological warefare )

I really see no reason for an "alien" to come here except for natural resources (including food). Humans are a paranoid, dirty, violent lot.


----------



## tsaw

I had more time to think about this subject. It hit me to look at it like this:
The existence of the dinosaur VS the planet visited by aliens.
OK -   Now what is being theorized is that there is evidence via past 
artifacts that we were visited. 

Now think about this:
If the only evidence we had of the dinosaur was some large foot
prints found somewhere, one might think that is enough.

BUT: We have bones that when dated match the date of their existence. When re-constructed, make one big puppy. Pretty concrete tangible hard to deny evidence.

On the other hand, not once have there ever been found anything 
on earth that could be held up to the light - and be said that it was not from earth. 

With the above said... my beliefs are:
1) There is no god as taught in church.
2) I'm agnostic. I believe there HAS to be more than just man on
earth in this vast universe. This is just using pure logic and common sense.
3) Has earth been visited? Maybe. But I see nothing to convince me yet.

Thanks Lia for starting this thought provoking thread.
3)


----------



## Cowboy

tsaw said:


> I had more time to think about this subject. It hit me to look at it like this:
> The existence of the dinosaur VS the planet visited by aliens.
> OK - Now what is being theorized is that there is evidence via past
> artifacts that we were visited.
> 
> Now think about this:
> If the only evidence we had of the dinosaur was some large foot
> prints found somewhere, one might think that is enough.
> 
> BUT: We have bones that when dated match the date of their existence. When re-constructed, make one big puppy. Pretty concrete tangible hard to deny evidence.
> 
> On the other hand, not once have there ever been found anything
> on earth that could be held up to the light - and be said that it was not from earth.
> 
> With the above said... my beliefs are:
> 1) There is no god as taught in church.
> 2) I'm agnostic. I believe there HAS to be more than just man on
> earth in this vast universe. This is just using pure logic and common sense.
> 3) Has earth been visited? Maybe. But I see nothing to convince me yet.
> 
> Thanks Lia for starting this thought provoking thread.
> 3)


 All very good points Tom , but I really think from what you just wrote you trully would find the rest of the series very interesting . No one is trying to say its a fact the aliens had anything to do with anything BUT if you watch the series it does leave some doubt there is any other explanation and thats what I find interesting you just have to view and decide for yourself .


----------



## waybomb

If you watched AlGore's Inconvenient Truth, you could be made to believe that AGW was real.
Of course, that's been debunked, but some still actually believe, as a result of that movie.


----------



## fogtender

SShepherd said:


> well, initially, alot were put to the sword and whip before disease took over
> 
> and as far as the american indians, more died of lead poisoning (ya, there were a few incidents of biological warefare )
> 
> I really see no reason for an "alien" to come here except for natural resources (including food). Humans are a paranoid, dirty, violent lot.



Well we aren't much different as far as resources go, but we also go to strange places to study animals as well!

Not having a direct line to Aliens, I have no idea what they would be doing here other than watching us...  We think we are hot stuff because we can build a stealth fighter...  I figure that if something that advanced can come accross the voids of space, they could stand next to you and not be seen.

I have no answers about aliens or a lot of stuff, but I'm sure when the Aztec's first saw the Spanish Ships, they were in Awe.  I doubt we wouldn't be much different if an E.T. showed up here. Of course NORAD would try to blow them out of the sky!

If there is in fact a God (I know there is something after here) why would he only put man on one planet in the entire universe, that was the same mindset when the Church claimed the sun rotated around the Earth, which of course was flat!


----------



## tsaw

> If there is in fact a God (I know there is something after here) why  would he only put man on one planet in the entire universe, that was the  same mindset when the Church claimed the sun rotated around the Earth,  which of course was flat!



That is the same logical thinking i'm using to look at this.
A bigger question is: If there is something out there beyond us, why does it have to be so hidden? Why can't it be proven like sticking your hand in an open flame burns like HELL? Why all the mystery and hiding? IDK... just thinking.


----------



## muleman RIP

I have a lot of fossils on my place which tells me that at one time it was part of a big sea. Where it all went is a mystery to me as well. I have dug up a lot of interesting stuff but no aliens yet!


----------



## Cowboy

tsaw said:


> That is the same logical thinking i'm using to look at this.
> A bigger question is: If there is something out there beyond us, why does it have to be so hidden? Why can't it be proven like sticking your hand in an open flame burns like HELL? Why all the mystery and hiding? IDK... just thinking.


 What you have to ask yourself Tom is WHO is hiding the fact they exsist ? 

  It is a fact that all governments have been keeping many secrets from people for many decades that night cause them to worry or panic . There have been thousands of accounts over several centurys of highly respected people that have claimed to have witnessed ufo's on numerous occasions, including military personell from all over the world including those that have been into space. 

  The information and reports are out there you just have to want to look for it.  Most people just choose to ignore it, because maybe having something out there like alien beings from another universe that are far more inteligent then us, Scares the hell out of them. 

   Personally I want to know as much about the world we live in, for the short time that I am a part of it, to do that I have to look at the posibility anything is possible and keep an open mind. It also doesn't hurt to look up once in awhile instead of looking down.


----------



## Lia

tsaw said:


> That is the same logical thinking i'm using to look at this.
> A bigger question is: If there is something out there beyond us, why does it have to be so hidden? Why can't it be proven like sticking your hand in an open flame burns like HELL? Why all the mystery and hiding? IDK... just thinking.


 
Tsaw, it isn’t really hidden. Millions of sightings go unreported on an annual basis. On a daily basis (I think I posted some statistics in another thread, and will try to find the link), the statistics are frighteningly telling. 

As for your question: ‘why all the mystery?’ Well, one has to think clearly and logically about this. The mystery is not hard to fathom. There is no government, or defence department, nor military strategy or weaponry that can stop these visitations. They are, by all accounts, and from various professional and/or military opinions, far superior in technology to us. 

What would you have the DOD, or NASA do? Admit that these Aliens are here, but they are powerless not only to stop them, but also powerless against their technology? How do you think that would go down globally, in terms of human emotional stability? And, what defence department would admit to their opposite counterparts their defensive inadequacies? Don’t you know that we have been trying to down these things since the world war two? There have been many reports of our military firing at them, but none, to my knowledge, of them firing at us.

It isn’t as if this has only been a problem since the beginning of the last century, as many people believe, and our governments would like everyone to believe. They want folk to associate these sightings with science fiction/fantasy and comic book heroes. It’s a propaganda war. There have been sightings for as far back as history records. Paintings from the ancient period, medieval times and even stone age carvings have been found, portraying these craft in all four corners of the globe. Alexander the Great became obsessed by them and spent the rest of his life researching them after he and his men, during a campaign, sighted several strange craft.

I’m gonna go out on a limb here: No-one has to believe this, there is no actual evidence to prove it either way. If you’re sceptical, that’s fine, but if anyone here is genuinely interested, below is an extract from a discussion between Houston Mission Control and Apollo 11 during their ‘moon excursion.’ Of course, this is a little off-track in relation to the actual thread topic, which is ancient civilizations and possible ancient alien visitations, but some people actually believe that we have never been alone. In fact there is a good preponderance of evidence to suggest that this is fact.

I’d be more than willing to debate these anomalies, and name names; military, political, etc. I don’t have all the answers, but I have a wealth of archival information from years of research.



> Apollo 11, with Neil Armstrong, Michael Collins and Edwin Aldrin was the first Apollo flight to land on the Moon, on July 20, 1969. While Collins flew in orbit around the Moon in the command module, Armstrong and Aldrin descended in the lunar module, landing in the Sea of Tranquillity at 4:17 P.M.
> 
> According to hitherto un-confirmed reports, both Neil Armstrong and Edwin "Buzz" Aldrin saw UFOs shortly after that historic landing on the Moon in Apollo 11 on 21 July 1969. I remember hearing one of the astronauts refer to a "light" in or on a crater during the television transmission, followed by a request from mission control for further information. Nothing more was heard.
> 
> The following astonishing conversation was picked up by ham radio operators that had their own VHF receiving facilities that bypassed NASA's broadcasting outlets. At this time, the live television broadcast was interrupted for two minutes due to a supposed "overheated camera", but the transmission below was received loud and clear by hundreds of ham radio operators:
> 
> According to Otto Binder, who was a member of the NASA space team, when the two moon-walkers, Aldrin and Armstrong were making their rounds some distance from the LEM, Armstrong clutched Aldrin's arm excitedly and exclaimed:
> 
> Armstrong: What was it? What the hell was it? That's all I want to know!"
> 
> Mission Control: What's there?... malfunction (garble) ... Mission Control calling Apollo 11 ...
> 
> Apollo 11: These babies were huge, sir!... Enormous!... Oh, God! You wouldn't believe it! ... I'm telling you there are other space-craft out there ... lined up on the far side of the crater edge! ... They're on the Moon watching us!
> 
> Wilson writes (p. 48): "Binder ends his report with this observation: 'There has, understandably, been no confirmation of this incredible report by NASA or any authorities. WE cannot vouch for its authenticity, but if true, one can surmise that mission control went into a dither and then into a huddle, after which they sternly [ordered] the moonwalkers to 'forget' what they saw and carry on casually and calmly as if nothing had happened. After all, an estimated 600 million people around the world were hanging on every word spoken by the first two men to leave footprints on the Moon."
> 
> The book "Celestial Raise" by Richard Watson and ASSK [P.O. Box 35 Mt. Shasta CA. 96067 (916)-926-2316); 1987; page 147-148] records the following (continuation?) of the above remarkable dialogue of Apollo 11, which was picked up by hundreds of ham radio operators in the USA:
> 
> "During the transmission of the Moon landing of Armstrong and Aldrin, who journeyed to the Moon in an American spaceship, two minutes of silence occurred in which the image and sound were interrupted. NASA insisted that this problem was the result of one of the television cameras which had overheated, thus interfering with the reception.
> 
> This unexpected problem surprised even the most qualified of viewers who were unable to explain how in such a costly project, one of the most essential elements could break down... Some time after the historic Moon landing, Christopher Craft, director of the base in Houston, made some surprising comments when he left NASA.
> 
> The contents of these comments, which is included in the conversations [below], has been corroborated by hundreds of amateur radio operators who had connected their stations to the same frequency through which the astronauts transmitted. During the two minute interruption - which was not as it seemed, NASA, Armstrong and Aldrin with Cape Kennedy, censored both image and sound. 'I say that there were other spaceships.'
> 
> Here is reproduced completely the dialogue between the American astronauts and Control Center:
> 
> Armstrong & Aldrin: Those are giant things. No, no, no - this is not an optical illusion. No one is going to believe this!
> 
> Houston (Christopher Craft): What ... what ... what? What the hell is happening? What's wrong with you?
> 
> Armstrong & Aldrin: They're here under the surface.
> 
> Houston: What's there? (muffled noise) Emission interrupted; interference control calling 'Apollo 11'.
> 
> Armstrong & Aldrin: We saw some visitors. They were here for a while, observing the instruments.
> 
> Houston: Repeat your last information!
> 
> Armstrong & Aldrin: I say that there were other spaceships. They're lined up in the other side of the crater!
> 
> Houston: Repeat, repeat!
> 
> Armstrong & Aldrin: Let us sound this orbita ... in 625 to 5 ... Automatic relay connected ... My hands are shaking so badly I can't do anything. Film it? God, if these damned cameras have picked up anything - what then?
> 
> Houston: Have you picked up anything?
> 
> Armstrong & Aldrin: I didn't have any film at hand. Three shots of the saucers or whatever they were that were ruining the film
> 
> Houston: Control, control here. Are you on your way? What is the uproar with the UFOs over?
> 
> Armstrong & Aldrin: They've landed here. There they are and they're watching us.
> 
> Houston: The mirrors, the mirrors - have you set them up?
> 
> Armstrong & Aldrin: Yes, they're in the right place. But whoever made those spaceships surely can come tomorrow and remove them. Over and out.
> 
> 
> A certain professor, who wished to remain anonymous, was engaged in a discussion with Neil Armstrong during a NASA symposium.
> 
> 
> Professor: What REALLY happened out there with Apollo 11?
> 
> Armstrong: It was incredible, of course we had always known there was a possibility - the fact is, we were warned off! There was never any question then of a space station or a moon city.
> 
> Professor: How do you mean "warned off"?
> 
> Armstrong: I can't go into details, except to say that their ships were far superior to ours both in size and technology - Boy, were they big!...and menacing! No, there is no question of a space station.
> 
> Professor: But NASA had other missions after Apollo 11?
> 
> Armstrong: Naturally - NASA was committed at that time, and couldn't risk panic on Earth. But it really was a quick scoop and back again.
> 
> According to a Dr. Vladimir Azhazha:
> "Neil Armstrong relayed the message to Mission Control that two large, mysterious objects were watching them after having landed near the Moon module (LEM). But this message was never heard by the public - because NASA censored it."
> 
> According to a Dr. Aleksandr Kasantsev, Buzz Aldrin took color movie film of the UFOs from inside the module, and continued filming them after he and Armstrong went outside.
> 
> Armstrong confirmed that the story was true but refused to go into further detail, beyond admitting that the CIA was behind the cover-up."
> 
> http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicphotos.html


----------



## SShepherd

so, if there's no hard evidence/proof.............are you saying you're going on faith to believe ?


----------



## fogtender

SShepherd said:


> so, if there's no hard evidence/proof.............are you saying you're going on faith to believe ?



Aliens or God?


----------



## Lia

SShepherd said:


> so, if there's no hard evidence/proof.............are you saying you're going on faith to believe ?


 
Oh what a delicious question to ask. A good question. I'll try to be brief but succinct. 

I've said this before, and perhaps some won't understand where I am coming from, but one doesn't have to be religious, or believe in a deity to be spiritual emotionally, mentally, or physically. I do go upon faith, just as every other soul in the world does, at various times. However, my belief in these things that I speak of in this thread are just a part of me, and of personal experiences that I have had throughout my life.

Much of it is personal, altho a very few here know of some of it. But, to get to the point, I have been seeing these craft for most of my life. I have never encountered one that has landed, but have been as close as around 12 feet away from one in flight. I've never seen an 'Alien,' but I know that the various craft that I have seen over the years were piloted by some form of intelligence. I'm pretty pragmatic as an individual, but have always been what one or two in my family have called 'Fey.'

I have a blog, somewhat; a private blog, of some personal but consistent and 'paranormal' experiences that have occurred throughout my life, which I have been considering posting here, at ff, for some time now. I guess that this sort of thread is partly a sort of 'testing the waters' excercise. Altho I am very serious about all that I have posted here, I hasten to add.

Without trying to be disrespectful, I would like to say that one doesn't necessarily need to be told by some deity, not to kill, steal, covet, envy, be greedy, nasty, disruptive, inconsiderate, etc, etc... I don't know anyone in my social circle who would turn away from someone who was desperate for help, in need, or in pain; and neither do I know anyone who would deliberately set out to inflict harm on anyone, mentally or physically. I'm an Atheist, but I have spiritual experiences, and consider myself to be a good person, relatively. 

My morals and principles are on a par with anyone who adheres to a religious faith.


----------



## pirate_girl

Lia said:


> Without trying to be disrespectful, I would like to say that one doesn't necessarily need to be told by some deity, not to kill, steal, covet, envy, be greedy, nasty, disruptive, inconsiderate, etc, etc... I don't know anyone in my social circle who would turn away from someone who was desperate for help, in need, or in pain; and neither do I know anyone who would deliberately set out to inflict harm on anyone, mentally or physically. I'm an Atheist, but I have spiritual experiences, and consider myself to be a good person, relatively.
> 
> My morals and principles are on a par with anyone who adheres to a religious faith.


Well said my dear!


----------



## Cowboy

tsaw said:


> That is the same logical thinking i'm using to look at this.
> A bigger question is: If there is something out there beyond us, why does it have to be so hidden? Why can't it be proven like sticking your hand in an open flame burns like HELL? Why all the mystery and hiding? IDK... just thinking.


As I have said before Tom there is proof out there you just have to look for it . We just got done watching season 1 episode 6 and they covered the Bermuda trianle as well as the Roswell incident and what has been called the battle of Las Angeles which some may not even be aware that it even took place because it happened shortly after the attack of Pearl Harbor . But here is a little info about it if anyone is interested as well as a live radio report from the same incident. As Riply said "beleive it or not" . 

Edit! It was actually the first video of season 2 that I linked to in an earlier post that has the index that covered these incidents . Which can be found here if any one is interested. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zN3vLtHBV0&feature=relmfu"]Ancient Aliens Season 2 Episode 1(FULL)      - YouTube[/ame]


Radio broadcast here. 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFPcvnxuLJI"]1942 BATTLE OF LOS ANGELES. - YouTube[/ame]




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Los_Angeles



 


_Los Angeles Times_, February 26, 1942. The photo in the top left, the only one taken of the "battle," has been used by conspiracy theorists as proof of the existence of UFOs. However, the photo was heavily modified prior to publication.[1]

The *Battle of Los Angeles*, also known as *The Great Los Angeles Air Raid*, is the name given by contemporary sources to the rumored enemy attack and subsequent anti-aircraft artillery barrage which took place from late February 24 to early February 25, 1942 over Los Angeles, California.[2][3] The incident occurred less than three months after the United States entered World War II as a result of the Japanese Imperial Navy's attack on Pearl Harbor, and one day after the Bombardment of Ellwood on February 23.
Initially, the target of the aerial barrage was thought to be an attacking force from Japan, but speaking at a press conference shortly afterward, Secretary of the Navy Frank Knox called the incident a "false alarm." Newspapers of the time published a number of sensational reports and speculations of a cover-up. Some modern-day UFOlogists have suggested the targets were extraterrestrial spacecraft.[4] When documenting the incident in 1983, the U.S. Office of Air Force History attributed the event to a case of "war nerves" likely triggered by a lost weather balloon and exacerbated by stray flares and shell bursts from adjoining batteries.
*Contents*



[hide]

1 Alarms raised
2 Press response
3 Attribution
4 Commemoration
5 See also
6 References


----------



## SShepherd

Lia said:


> Oh what a delicious question to ask. A good question. I'll try to be brief but succinct.
> 
> I've said this before, and perhaps some won't understand where I am coming from, but one doesn't have to be religious, or believe in a deity to be spiritual emotionally, mentally, or physically. I do go upon faith, just as every other soul in the world does, at various times. However, my belief in these things that I speak of in this thread are just a part of me, and of personal experiences that I have had throughout my life.
> 
> Much of it is personal, altho a very few here know of some of it. But, to get to the point, I have been seeing these craft for most of my life. I have never encountered one that has landed, but have been as close as around 12 feet away from one in flight. I've never seen an 'Alien,' but I know that the various craft that I have seen over the years were piloted by some form of intelligence. I'm pretty pragmatic as an individual, but have always been what one or two in my family have called 'Fey.'
> 
> I have a blog, somewhat; a private blog, of some personal but consistent and 'paranormal' experiences that have occurred throughout my life, which I have been considering posting here, at ff, for some time now. I guess that this sort of thread is partly a sort of 'testing the waters' excercise. Altho I am very serious about all that I have posted here, I hasten to add.
> 
> Without trying to be disrespectful, I would like to say that one doesn't necessarily need to be told by some deity, not to kill, steal, covet, envy, be greedy, nasty, disruptive, inconsiderate, etc, etc... I don't know anyone in my social circle who would turn away from someone who was desperate for help, in need, or in pain; and neither do I know anyone who would deliberately set out to inflict harm on anyone, mentally or physically. I'm an Atheist, but I have spiritual experiences, and consider myself to be a good person, relatively.
> 
> My morals and principles are on a par with anyone who adheres to a religious faith.


 i'm glad you understood my reason for the question

Alot of people "believe" in Aliens, etc without having any proof or 1st hand knowledge- yet they mock christians for worshiping a God they've never seen. I find that a bit hypocritical. (I'm not saying you're in that crowd)
They try to pull the intellectuall superority card, but in the end it comes down to faith.


----------



## Lia

SShepherd said:


> i'm glad you understood my reason for the question
> 
> Alot of people "believe" in Aliens, etc without having any proof or 1st hand knowledge- yet they mock christians for worshiping a God they've never seen. I find that a bit hypocritical. (I'm not saying you're in that crowd)
> They try to pull the intellectuall superority card, but in the end it comes down to faith.


 
Well, I understand where you're coming from Shep, altho I've always found it to be far more prominent the other way around. However, as Cowboy said in his post above, there is an enormous preponderance of evidence to show that the Alien Visitation, and Alien Ancient Civilization issue is, and always has been an ongoing situation. 

A wealth of evidence from prominent people from all walks of life, and an enormous pool of video and media evidence (I admit that there are a good number of hoaxes and hoaxers out there trying to muddy the waters), has been presented. On another site I have made it my business to expose some hoaxes, not necessarily all of it of UFO's, but I/we, for the most part, don't believe everything we read or hear, on the subject of UFO's and Aliens.

I've posted, a while ago, a link to the news video from, I believe, world war two, where the US army gave everything they had at a single UFO, which they had well within their sights, and still failed to 'down it.' Cowboy I believe, has just posted it again, with other links, above. If one doesn't look, one will never see. Its all very well to say that there is no evidence, but it simply isn't true. There is far more evidence for extraterrestrial life out there, than there is for the deities of any religion, especially since these things are still around today, whereas the deities have, if they ever existed, been long gone. 

A very small, yet significant amount of this evidence, albeit circumstantial, has been posted in this thread, and others here at ff. I don't want to make this a 'religious thread' because I intended it to be a kind of academic sharing of knowledge of ancient history and alien visitations; but I will say this. I have no problem with people having a faith, or believing in a deity. Some, many Christians, and other believers, are awesome folk, who are a credit to their chosen faith; there's a heck of a lot of those kind here at ff. 

What I have a problem with is those who say that their god demands certain things of humankind, when it must be as clear as crystal that he never practiced what he preached, nor showed the benevolence and/or compassion that he is credited with. 

I have a problem with people, theists, who condemn me because I do not believe in their god; yet who don't even know me, or know what my morals and principles are. You know Shep, with all due respect, there are no 'Saints' in Heaven. Saints are man made. Some of them had some shocking habits and traits. Think about it hon.  

Peace.


----------



## Lia

Jut as a point of interest, I was just sent this video by a very good friend, who thought it might be relevant, especially to those of the Catholic faith. I'm not sure what to make of it, and its early days to speculate in its significance, but in any event, here's the video:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ydurUDXea8&feature=player_embedded"]Vatican to announce ALIENS! Father Jonathan Morris interview - YouTube[/ame]

Of course, its not the first time that something of this nature has come out of the vatican. They made an announcement in 2008 on UFO's and Alien life-forms, and speculated then on the issue. 

Its possible that 'disclosure' may be more imminent than those who have anticipated it, realize. But, the time is right, imho, and I believe that world governments now know that it is inevitable. Interesting video...


----------



## SShepherd

Lia said:


> Well, I understand where you're coming from Shep, altho I've always found it to be far more prominent the other way around. However, as Cowboy said in his post above, there is an enormous preponderance of evidence to show that the Alien Visitation, and Alien Ancient Civilization issue is, and always has been an ongoing situation.
> 
> A wealth of evidence from prominent people from all walks of life, and an enormous pool of video and media evidence (I admit that there are a good number of hoaxes and hoaxers out there trying to muddy the waters), has been presented. On another site I have made it my business to expose some hoaxes, not necessarily all of it of UFO's, but I/we, for the most part, don't believe everything we read or hear, on the subject of UFO's and Aliens.
> 
> I've posted, a while ago, a link to the news video from, I believe, world war two, where the US army gave everything they had at a single UFO, which they had well within their sights, and still failed to 'down it.' Cowboy I believe, has just posted it again, with other links, above. If one doesn't look, one will never see. Its all very well to say that there is no evidence, but it simply isn't true. There is far more evidence for extraterrestrial life out there, than there is for the deities of any religion, especially since these things are still around today, whereas the deities have, if they ever existed, been long gone.
> 
> A very small, yet significant amount of this evidence, albeit circumstantial, has been posted in this thread, and others here at ff. I don't want to make this a 'religious thread' because I intended it to be a kind of academic sharing of knowledge of ancient history and alien visitations; but I will say this. I have no problem with people having a faith, or believing in a deity. Some, many Christians, and other believers, are awesome folk, who are a credit to their chosen faith; there's a heck of a lot of those kind here at ff.
> 
> What I have a problem with is those who say that their god demands certain things of humankind, when it must be as clear as crystal that he never practiced what he preached, nor showed the benevolence and/or compassion that he is credited with.
> 
> I have a problem with people, theists, who condemn me because I do not believe in their god; yet who don't even know me, or know what my morals and principles are. *You know Shep, with all due respect, there are no 'Saints' in Heaven. Saints are man made. Some of them had some shocking habits and traits. Think about it hon*.
> 
> Peace.


 Why the poke in the eye?
This is your opinion. Just as you say there's evidence from people about extra terrestrials, believers in Christ can say the same, through the Bible and through personal expieriences.
Here is what the Bible says about saints;
http://www.gotquestions.org/saints-Christian.html
Therefore, scripturally speaking, the “saints” are the body of Christ, Christians, the church. All Christians are considered saints. All Christian are saints—and at the same time are called to be saints. First Corinthians 1:2 states it clearly: “To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy*…” from the same Greek root as the word that is commonly translated “saints.” Christians are saints by virtue of their connection with Jesus The words “sanctified” and “holy” come Christ. Christians are called to be saints, to increasingly allow their daily life to more closely match their position in Christ. This is the biblical description and calling of the saints*


----------



## Lia

SShepherd said:


> Why the poke in the eye?


 
Okay, this is turning into something that I diodn't want, and is off topic also, which I did mention before. I certainly didn't intend to 'poke you in the eye' as you term it Shep, and if you feel that I did, it was absolutely unintentional, and I unreservedly apologize for any offence caused.



> This is your opinion.


 
Well, actually, no, it isn't. But, I would be happy to debate the issue with you, tho I would prefer it if you would take it to another thread. 



> Just as you say there's evidence from people about extra terrestrials, believers in Christ can say the same, through the Bible and through personal expieriences.


 
No, as I said, there is evidence of alien visitation, and one can see it clearly, if one opens their eye's. The bible however, was written by men, several men, many many years, decades even, after the alleged events. Its a book full of contradictions and has been subjected to enormous literary manipulation, by various interpreters, and factions. It has been added too, and subtracted from, and even mistranslated. But, at the end of the day, it is merely a literary work via many authors, over many years, and based on anecdotal writings and stories. 



> Here is what the Bible says about saints;
> http://www.gotquestions.org/saints-Christian.html
> Therefore, scripturally speaking, the “saints” are the body of Christ, Christians, the church. All Christians are considered saints. All Christian are saints—and at the same time are called to be saints. First Corinthians 1:2 states it clearly: “To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy*…” from the same Greek root as the word that is commonly translated “saints.” Christians are saints by virtue of their connection with Jesus The words “sanctified” and “holy” come Christ. Christians are called to be saints, to increasingly allow their daily life to more closely match their position in Christ. This is the biblical description and calling of the saints*


 
Quite right! I never disputed that Saints aren't the product of men. I said so in my previous post. What I do claim tho, is that these elected 'saints' are merely saints of *this world;* elected by religious factions and institutes. No-one can make someone something special, of or in a dimension that cannot even be proved exists; nor can they have liased with anyone in this 'heaven'to arrange such a status. either there or in any other such dimension. The same as our president can't make an order to say that a certain person here, or of another realm/country should be exalted there. He would have no such jurisdiction. 

As I said, I'm more than happy to debate the religious issue in another thread, but this is a thread about ancient civilizations and the possibilities of ancient aliens.


----------



## SShepherd

Lia said:


> Okay, this is turning into something that I diodn't want, and is off topic also, which I did mention before. I certainly didn't intend to 'poke you in the eye' as you term it Shep, and if you feel that I did, it was absolutely unintentional, and I unreservedly apologize for any offence caused.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, actually, no, it isn't. But, I would be happy to debate the issue with you, tho I would prefer it if you would take it to another thread.
> 
> 
> 
> No, as I said, there is evidence of alien visitation, and one can see it clearly, if one opens their eye's. The bible however, was written by men, several men, many many years, decades even, after the alleged events. Its a book full of contradictions and has been subjected to enormous literary manipulation, by various interpreters, and factions. It has been added too, and subtracted from, and even mistranslated. But, at the end of the day, it is merely a literary work via many authors, over many years, and based on anecdotal writings and stories.
> 
> 
> 
> Quite right! I never disputed that Saints aren't the product of men. I said so in my previous post. What I do claim tho, is that these elected 'saints' are merely saints of *this world;* elected by religious factions and institutes. No-one can make someone something special, of or in a dimension that cannot even be proved exists; nor can they have liased with anyone in this 'heaven'to arrange such a status. either there or in any other such dimension. The same as our president can't make an order to say that a certain person here, or of another realm/country should be exalted there. He would have no such jurisdiction.
> 
> As I said, I'm more than happy to debate the religious issue in another thread, but this is a thread about ancient civilizations and the possibilities of ancient aliens.


my point is simply that I've made no judgement call, either for or against to discredit your beliefs. Your beliefs are your choice.
Please don't disrespect mine.
For some reason all the UFO talk seems to turn anti-God.


----------



## Lia

SShepherd said:


> my point is simply that I've made no judgement call, either for or against to discredit your beliefs. Your beliefs are your choice.
> Please don't disrespect mine.
> For some reason all the UFO talk seems to turn anti-God.


 
I am not disrespecting your beliefs; the whole thread is about ancient aliens civilizations that many people believe were misinterpreted as gods. You're the one that is trying to turn it into something personal. Its an academic concept! I refuse to apologise for a concept!


----------



## fogtender

SShepherd said:


> my point is simply that I've made no judgement call, either for or against to discredit your beliefs. Your beliefs are your choice.
> Please don't disrespect mine.
> For some reason all the UFO talk seems to turn anti-God.



Lia has a very valid point in this is for UFO/Alien side of man's history and we should keep it on thread.  I find this fascinating myself, and don't mind debating religion either, but we should respect her thread and take our other debates to those threads out of respect.

Then we can debate religion there.

Having said that, I truely believe some cultures did have contacts with ET's and view them as Gods in their legacy! But that is different than quoting scriptures here unless it is related to the subject at hand.

I'm also fully aware, as are most of us, religion and some views clash, that isn't what Lia is trying to prove or disprove.

Anyway, that is my Penny's worth in the pot.


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## SShepherd

I'm not trying to make it personal, although beliefs are a very personal thing. I say it takes faith to believe in little green men, that's all.


----------



## Cowboy

SShepherd said:


> my point is simply that I've made no judgement call, either for or against to discredit your beliefs. Your beliefs are your choice.
> Please don't disrespect mine.
> For some reason all the UFO talk seems to turn anti-God.


 


SShepherd said:


> I'm not trying to make it personal, although beliefs are a very personal thing. I say it takes faith to believe in little green men, that's all.


 

I dont think anyone that has posted today has discredited anyones beleifs. Not true on earlier posts IMO . But I agree this subject can seem to take an anti God direction , but only by those that dont take the time to watch the videos that Lia asked to be watched and discussed . 

  I find the subject fascinating myself, and the videos only supply some facts with suggestions of maybe this or maybe that. No one that I have seen are saying anything that God doesn't exsist , they are merely pointing out the posibillitys some Gods ( not necesarily all ) very well could have been misinterpeted . At least thats what I get out of them . Its still upto every individual to decide for themselves , and you are not giving a fair shot if you dont take the time to view the videos . 

  They are from the history channel, not some nutcase biased website .


----------



## fogtender

SShepherd said:


> I'm not trying to make it personal, although beliefs are a very personal thing. I say it takes faith to believe in little green men, that's all.



If you haven't seen anything you would call "proof" hasn't crossed your path, then that is a very valid belief.  

I'm that way with a lot of stuff, and hearsay doesn't sway me.  I've never met an Alien that I know of (ET kind), but I have seen a number of times things that were really unidentified.  They did movements that I don't think mankind could preform...  Could be something top secret that the military has going, but this stuff did things that craft I am aware of can't do and physically the human body couldn't survive. 

So I'm open to other people's views on the subject.  To think we are the only "Souls" in the Universe to me is more unbelievable.


----------



## SShepherd

fogtender said:


> *If you haven't seen anything you would call "proof" hasn't crossed your path, then that is a very valid belief. *
> 
> I'm that way with a lot of stuff, and hearsay doesn't sway me. I've never met an Alien that I know of (ET kind), but I have seen a number of times things that were really unidentified. They did movements that I don't think mankind could preform... Could be something top secret that the military has going, but this stuff did things that craft I am aware of can't do and physically the human body couldn't survive.
> 
> So I'm open to other people's views on the subject. To think we are the only "Souls" in the Universe to me is more unbelievable.


 
In a way, I'm agreeing with you. Unfortunatly when people talk about personal expieriences with God, they're called fruitcakes/rubes, etc.
Sure, the whole subject it interesting. Call me a sceptic, whatever, but I think the pyramids were made by men ( pretty incredible what thousands of people can do when a whip is cracked)
I'm sure there are things we don't know, things that maybe people 300 years ago did. Ever notice how alot of the stuff the romans built is still around? We can't seem to make a road that last 10 years, yet look how long theirs have lasted.


----------



## pirate_girl

Lia said:


> with all due respect, there are no 'Saints' in Heaven. *Saints are man made*. Some of them had some shocking habits and traits. Think about it hon.
> 
> Peace.



They most certainly are!
It's through a long, drawn out process known as canonization, which declares someone a saint.
We have no _real _proof that these souls are in Heaven, but given all the prayer, fasting, offering up (yeah that's old school Catholic jazz) that I have offered over the years as a cradle Catholic, saints Monica, Therese Of Lisieux,  Dymphna, and she, my Mom in Heaven, the Blessed Mother have guided me and comforted me in the most horrible times I could have ever imagined going through.
The saints (some) practiced self flagellation, wearing hair shirts, crowns of thorns and fasting almost to the point of death by starvation.

That is my faith Lia, and while I LOVE respecting and honouring your beliefs, I felt it necessary to add to this so you get a deeper understanding of mine.
Having that said, I always have an open mind and interest in what is going on out there, up there.. anywhere..
Love and mystery surrounds us.
It can be a sky full of stars, a full moon, something that happens through positive thought.. who knows?


----------



## fogtender

SShepherd said:


> In a way, I'm agreeing with you. Unfortunatly when people talk about personal expieriences with God, they're called fruitcakes/rubes, etc.
> Sure, the whole subject it interesting. Call me a sceptic, whatever, but I think the pyramids were made by men ( pretty incredible what thousands of people can do when a whip is cracked)
> I'm sure there are things we don't know, things that maybe people 300 years ago did. Ever notice how alot of the stuff the romans built is still around? We can't seem to make a road that last 10 years, yet look how long theirs have lasted.


 
Well the common conception was that the Pyramids were built by slaves, but more modern views are that they were in fact built by an army of craftsmen.  There are entire towns they are uncovering around the area where they lived.  Aliens aside, slaves don't seem to be that big of an issue in the Construction process, maybe some general labor, but the Craftsmen ran the show... "Maybe" with the help of ET too....


----------



## Lia

SShepherd said:


> In a way, I'm agreeing with you. Unfortunatly when people talk about personal expieriences with God, they're called fruitcakes/rubes, etc.


 
They are no more denigrated, in fact far less so, than those who speak of UFO’s and Aliens. The fact is that some people take things so personally that they make it ‘all about them,’ when it isn’t. That’s a kind of arrogance. I didn’t post this thread with the sole intent of baiting theists. If you believe that, from the content and context of the OP, then you are indeed making it all about you, and not the subject under debate.




> Sure, the whole subject it interesting. Call me a sceptic, whatever, but I think the pyramids were made by men


 
Well, there’s the proof right there, that you haven’t watched the video’s. You’re just spouting off, with tunnel vision and a closed mind. Because if you had watched the video’s you would have seen that whilst the Egyptians did build some of the lesser known pyramids (extremely poor copies in researchers views), that experts in construction admit today that they could not replicate the famous pyramids without extremely high-tech, and large machinery. Not only that but they demonstrate in the video’s how it is not possible to build them, even with the tools and technology that we have today.




> ( pretty incredible what thousands of people can do when a whip is cracked)


 
I’ve already addressed that naivety in another post.




> I'm sure there are things we don't know, things that maybe people 300 years ago did. Ever notice how alot of the stuff the romans built is still around? We can't seem to make a road that last 10 years, yet look how long theirs have lasted.


 
Sure, but nothing they built was as intricate and complex as the pyramids, or the Sphinx. To try to equate the two is disingenuous; and a strawman argument. 




> They most certainly are!





> It's through a long, drawn out process known as canonization, which declares someone a saint.


 
They may be, and it may be a long drawn out process, but it is a process that is drawn out on earth, on this plane, and devised by mere mortals.




> We have no _real _proof that these souls are in Heaven, but given all the prayer, fasting, offering up (yeah that's old school Catholic jazz) that I have offered over the years as a cradle Catholic, saints Monica, Therese Of Lisieux, Dymphna, and she, my Mom in Heaven, the Blessed Mother have guided me and comforted me in the most horrible times I could have ever imagined going through.


 
No matter, with all respect, how many prayers are ‘offered up,’ there are still no saints in heaven! We have no proof that this ‘heaven’ exists first of all, but even if we did, do you really believe that man has a say in how it is run? Do you really believe that whoever reigns over this mythical plane is bound by earth rules, or those of the Catholic church?[/quote]

Believe me, I believe in other planes, other dimensions; these have been discovered by physicists, and the scientific world has known about, and talked about them since at least the turn of this century, 2002. But even if this were not so, I would still believe in them because of personal and private inexplicable experiences throughout my life. But*, here’s the reality,* *we have* *absolutely no jurisdiction over any other plane, dimension, planet, than our own.* We cannot decide that one of our own is going to be deified or canonized in another realm.




> The saints (some) practiced self flagellation, wearing hair shirts, crowns of thorns and fasting almost to the point of death by starvation.


 
That doesn’t make someone a saint, only in the eye’s of theists. It might make them martyrs, but it it is only men who can make them saints, and only on this plane/planet.




> That is my faith Lia, and while I LOVE respecting and honouring your beliefs, I felt it necessary to add to this so you get a deeper understanding of mine.


 
And, as I said, I respect your faith, but this thread isn’t about Faith. I think I’ve made it perfectly clear that I am more than happy to debate that topic elsewhere. 




> Having that said, I always have an open mind and interest in what is going on out there, up there.. anywhere..





> Love and mystery surrounds us.
> It can be a sky full of stars, a full moon, something that happens through positive thought.. who knows?


 
Exactly! Who knows?


----------



## Cowboy

I just finished season two of this series of shows from history TV and everyone of them I found to be very interesting as well as educational about things and places I had never heard of before . It covers many aspects of ancient history as well as some newer events . This is the link to the main menu once again for anyone interested in watching. 
http://www.youtube.com/user/Time4TruthDOTorg#p/a

I just started season 3 and it has a piece of a crash in Aurora Texas back in 1897 which I found very interesting and never had heard of it before . Here is a little bit of info on it and of coarse there have been sceptics that have tried to debunk it as well . I will post more as I find more about it . 

The 15 minute video can be found here. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH2eJILhg-E&feature=channel_video_title"]Ancient Aliens Season 3 Episode 1 (PART 1/3) (AKA s2e11) - YouTube[/ame]

http://www.ufocasebook.com/Aurora.html

http://www.ufocasebook.com/haydonarticle.jpg


----------



## Cowboy

Different but more detailed article here. 

http://www.mdresort.com/auroraalien.htm

Over one hundred years ago, a most unusual incident occurred in the tiny North Texas town of Aurora. It was here that one of the earliest documented encounters with an alien life form took place, in the early morning hours of April 19, 1897.

Aurora, Texas, is literally "the town that almost was" as the town's tiny history book states, and one of its few, if not its only, claim to fame is the burial site of an alien pilot that crashed there in his "airship", the most memorable event in a string of UFO sightings which covered a three state area between 1895 and 1898.







Aurora Texas is located just off US 287 west of Rhome, about a mile south, on State Highway 114 to Bridgeport. There is a sign beside the highway that says CEMETERY, and points south toward the graveyard. Interestingly enough, the historical marker at the site actually includes the word "spaceship". Newspapers, along with diaries and letters by local residents, reported that an alien craft hit a windmill and was torn to pieces, along with its occupant in April, 1897. A 1986 movie, " The Aurora Encounter," produced by Charles B. Pierce, tells the tale. The official historical marker was installed by the State of Texas, and although nobody knows exactly where the grave is located, it is certain that the alien was, in fact, buried in the Aurora Cemetery, after the efforts of the local doctor failed to save it's life following the crash. There is, unfortunately, no sign of the tombstone. It was stolen some years ago and never recovered. There are, however, picture records of its existence. There is currently a renewed movement in town to exhume the body of the alien, replace the headstone and do a complete search for remains of the crash. Also, there have been several interesting pieces of metal found in the area that have been confiscated for analysis by the military and never returned.


*Aurora Texas Cemetery*
"The oldest known graves, here, dating from as early as the 1860s, are those of the Randall and Rowlett families. Finis Dudley Beauchamp (1825-1893), a Confederate veteran from Mississippi, donated the 3-acre site to the newly- formed Aurora Lodge No. 479, A. F. & A.M., in 1877. For many years, this community burial ground was known as Masonic Cemetery. Beauchamp, his wife Caroline (1829-1915), and others in their family are buried here. An epidemic which struck the village in 1891 added hundreds of graves to the plot. Called "Spotted Fever" by the settlers, the disease is now thought to be a form of meningitis. Located in Aurora Texas Cemetery is the gravestone of the infant Nellie Burris (1891-1893) with its often-quoted epitaph: "As I was so soon done, I don't know why I was begun." This site is also well-known because of the legend that a spaceship crashed nearby in 1897 and the pilot, killed in the crash, was buried here. Struck by epidemic and crop failure and bypassed by the railroad, the original town of Aurora almost disappeared, but the cemetery remains in use with over 800 graves. Veterans of the Civil War, World Wars I and II, and the Korean and Vietnam conflicts are interred here".


Aurora Texas brings up images of high-speed space travel. In fact, one of the newest space shuttle in the NASA fleet is named 'Aurora' after the UFO incident that took place in 1897. In 1997, the 100th anniversary of the crash of the unknown "airship" in Aurora, the TV show "Sightings" brought renewed interest to the topic with a special called "One Hundred Years of UFO Cover-ups", that featured the crash, the efforts of the local doctor to help the dying alien, and the burial of his body in the town cemetery.







This incident has been covered up and ridiculed by the U.S. Government (a standard operating procedure of the MAJESTIC 12 group) and has been widely reported to be a hoax (a weather balloon?). This, to say the least, sounds a lot like Roswell in 1947? The US government has a long history of cover-ups in regards to such occurrences. It is hoped that the current, renewed interest in the incident will last, and that a new investigation will clear up the Aurora Texas event for good, although much time has passed. It is tragic that most, if not all of the original witnesses are long dead, for, at one time, up until around the early seventies, there were quite a few people still living who had been children at the time and not only remember the crash, but remember a rash of "airship" sightings, all over East and North-Central Texas, as well as the stories which were passed down to them from their "elders". Almost everyone who grew up in those parts of the state have heard stories from their grandparents, or other "old folks" about such events, many of whom were "substantial" citizens, including doctors, clergymen, judges, army personnel, sheriffs and other professionals.


The Aurora Texas crash was, in fact, the culminating event in a rash of "airship" sightings in East and Northeast Texas, Oklahoma, North and Central Louisiana in the period between 1895 and 1898. Robert Atkinson, of Center, Texas, a veteran of the Spanish American War, often told of seeing, as a teenager, strange, "flashing lights" in the sky, as did Polk Burns of the same city. Similar incidents were recountered by Bud Knight, a prominent resident of San Augustine, Texas, who died in 1981 at the age of 108. Lee Choron, who died in 1976 at the age of 94 recalled seeing "moving lights flashing in the sky" while living in Swift, Texas (near Nacogdoches) while in his "teens". Nor, were civic records and town newspapers of the time completely silent on the matter. Reports, although not common, do exist. On April 22, 1897 in the small central Texas town of Rockland, John M. Barclay was intrigued when his dog barked furiously and a high-pitched noise was heard. He went out, saw a flying object circling about 20 feet above ground. He described it as having an elongated shape, with protrusions and blinding lights, it went dark when it landed, only a short distance from his home. Barclay was met by a man who informed him that his purpose was peaceful and requested some common hardware items to repair the craft. He paid with a ten-dollar bill and took off "like a bullet out of a gun." 


On that same day, April 22, 1897, some one hundred miles away, in the community of Josserand, Texas, Frank Nichols, who lived some five miles east of Josserand, and was one of its most respected citizens, was awakened by what he called a "machine noise". Looking outside, he saw a heavy, lighted object land in his wheat field. He walked toward it, but was stopped by two men who asked permission to draw water from his well. He then had a discussion with half a dozen "short, dark men", apparently the crew of the strange machine. He was told how it worked but could not follow the explanation.


Three days later, on April 25, 1897, in Merkel, Texas, people returning from church observed a heavy object being dragged along the ground by a rope or cable, attached to a "cigar shaped" flying craft. As the assembled crowd watched, the line managed to get caught in a railroad track. The craft was too high for its structure to be visible but protrusions and a light could be distinguished. After the craft hovered in place for about 10 minutes, a man came down along the rope, cut the end free, and went back aboard the craft, which flew away toward the northeast. The man was described by all witnesses, as being small and dressed in a light blue uniform.







The next day, late in the evening of April 26, 1897, near the town of Aquila, in South Texas, a local lawyer, whose name was not reported by the press, was surprised to see a lighted object fly quietly overhead as he was riding from his office to his home, just outside the city limits. His horse was scared and nearly toppled his carriage. The object was large, and "oblong", and sported a bright light that was observed to be sweeping the ground below the object. When the main light was turned off, a number of smaller lights became visible on the underside of the dark colored, metallic craft, which revealed an elongated, transparent canopy. It continued forward, toward a hill, some seven miles to the south of Aquila. When the witness passed the same way, approximately one hour later, he saw the object rising. It reached the altitude of the cloud ceiling and flew to the northeast at a fantastic speed with periodic flashes of light.


These accounts, all given by respectable witnesses, separated by several hundred miles, yet all in a direct line with Aurora, Texas, describe a very similar object. It must be remembered that in 1897, distances were much greater than they are today, and news traveled at a much slower rate. It is inconceivable that there could have been any collusion between witnesses, and highly unlikely that people living in towns separated by several hundred miles could have heard news or read accounts of happenings in other towns within the space of two or three days. This was a time, it must be remembered, when most news traveled by wire, or by railroad, and unless there was a critical need for residents of one region to have news of another, the expense of wiring such news was avoided.


Much may be made, in some quarters, of the "quaint" descriptions given of the object. it, indeed, must be a single object, or at least identical objects. such as the presence of "machine noises" and "ropes". This is perfectly understandable in light of the fact that this was a time before sophisticated machinery, especially sophisticated flying machinery was common, or even, for that matter, known. It would be six years before the Wright Brothers would take their first, halting, leap above the ground, and the dirigible airships of such pioneers as the Count Von Zeplein, were in the very early stages of development, a continent and an ocean away. Certainly no native of East, Central or South Texas had ever seen such an object. It is highly unlikely that very many of them had even heard of such things. Science Fiction of the day was limited to the works of Jules Verne, and the very early works of Herbert George Wells, and it is unlikely, in the extreme, that residents of a tiny Texas town, only a few years removed from fighting for it's survival with the Apaches and Comanches would have access to such current works.


The point, is this. The residents of Aquila, Hillsboro, Merkel, Jossarand, Nacogodoches, Swift and Aurora, would describe what they saw in terms that they understood, and could relate to. Any unusual sound, emanating from an obviously "manmade" object would be described as a "machine sound". Likewise, any form of line, tie-down or connector would be described as a rope, cable or line. A classic example of such a description would be the existence of the "cargo" cults of the South Pacific. religious sects of islanders who being members of a pre-industrial, stone age culture, worship the airplanes that their ancestors first saw during the Second World War, and revere the crews as Gods who brought gifts. "cargo" from the sky. Far fetched? Not at all. Imagine how anyone living today might describe an object from a thousand years ago, or so, in our own future.


It is also worthwhile, at this point, to repeat the fact that people of this time and place, late 19th Century Texas, were extremely conservative in nature, skeptical by necessity, and most unlikely to take off on flights of fancy. There would simply be nothing to be gained from concocting a story concerning such a thing as an "airship." They would not only not be believed, their sanity, sobriety and competence would have come into serious question. Unlike today, when, as one must admit, such accounts are commonly hoaxed as an attempt to gain attention and momentary fame, this simply would not have been the case in 1897. The most likely result of such a story, unless absolutely and verifiably true would have been shunning by the community as the "village idiot" or as the "town drunk". Worse, in the primarily Protestant Fundamentalist religious atmosphere of the time, which, by the way, has changed but little since that time, one would have been considered "blasphemous", "sacrilegious" and possibly even "Satanic", and definitely shunned by most "upright" and "upstanding" citizens of the community.


The old "Judge Proctor" place in Aurora,Texas, site of the crash, is still locatable, and the town square is still in its original position, but unfortunately most of the original buildings of the town, those dating to the 1890s, are long gone. Some evidence, however, does endure to the present day. The original article, reporting the Aurora,Texas Incident, as written in 1897, in the April 19th edition of the Dallas Morning News reads as follows:


_"About 6 o'clock this morning, the early risers of Aurora, Texas were astonished at the sudden appearance of the airship which has been sailing around the country. It was traveling, due north, and much nearer the earth than before. Evidently some of the machinery was out of order, for it was making a speed of only ten or twelve miles an hour, and gradually settling toward the earth. It sailed over the public square and when it reached the north part of town, it collided with the tower of Judge Proctor's windmill and went into pieces with a terrific explosion, scattering debris over several acres of ground, wrecking the windmill and water tank and destroying the judge's flower garden. The pilot of the ship is supposed to have been the only one aboard, and while his remains were badly disfigured, enough of the original has been picked up to show that he was not an inhabitant of this world.


Mr. T. J. Weems, the U. S. Army Signal Services officer at this place and on astronomy, gives it as his opinion that the pilot was a native of the planet Mars. Papers found on his person. evidently the records of his travels. are written in some unknown hieroglyphics and cannot be deciphered. The ship was too badly wrecked to form any conclusion to its construction or its motive power. It was built of an unknown metal, resembling somewhat a mixture of aluminum and silver, and it must have weighed several tons. The town, today, is full of people who are viewing the wreckage and gathering specimens of strange metal from the debris. The pilot's funeral will take place tomorrow". _


The article was written by E. E. Haydon, who was a part-time reporter for the Morning News. As startling as the news was, no other newspaper in the world ran the story in their pages. This is, to say the least, unusual considering the widespread sightings of the "airship" and other aerial phenomenon in the time and place which was completely devoid of even the primitive air transport which was prevalent at the time. It should be remembered that in 1897, air travel consisted of hot air balloons and very early experiments in lighter than air craft such as the dirigibles of Count von Zeppelin in Germany. Neither of these were known to the Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana area. Needless to say, the first airplane was still more than six years in the future, and it is highly unlikely that anyone had experimented with one anywhere near the area. Even at that, the primitive flying machine of the Wright brothers was hardly capable of the speed, altitude or maneuverability of the Aurora, Texas "airship".


Another story that circulated in the area, at the time, but was not recorded in the pages of the press, has it that the pilot actually survived the crash, briefly, and that Aurora's town doctor attempted to render aid to the strange being. His anatomy was so vastly different from our own, the story goes, that the ministrations of the local physician were pointless, and the being died within a few hours of the crash, never regaining consciousness. To support this story, which was widely told at the time, persistent rumors have circulated about a diary kept by the doctor, which disappeared in the late 1940s or early 1950s, when a team of United States Air Force officials made an examination of the crash site and collected all remaining evidence, both on the site, and from private individuals, that could be found. Likewise, there have been numerous reports that the United States Air Force did, in fact, recover some fragments of the mysterious metal that the "airship" was built of, and took them away for evaluation. Many local residents say, to this day, that the only thing that prevented these government representatives from exhuming the body of the pilot was the fact that the grave was unmarked, and the exact spot unknown, or at least claimed to be so.


This is, to say the least, unusual, considering the widespread sightings of the "airship" and other aerial phenomenon in a time and place which was completely devoid of even the primitive air transport prevalent at the time. It should be remembered that in 1897, air travel consisted of hot air balloons and very early experiments in lighter than air craft such as the dirigibles of Count von Zeppelin, in Germany. Neither of these were known to the Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana area. Needless to mention, the airplane was still some six years in the future, and even at that, the primitive flying machine of the Wright brothers was hardly capable of the speed, altitude or maneuverability of the Aurora, Texas "airship".


This area, especially Texas, is, however, known as an ideal place for flying. This is evidenced by the fact that Kelly Air Force Base in San Antonio (formerly Kelly Field) was one of the first training centers for the fledgling Army Air Corps in the period following the invention of the heavier than air flying machine in 1903, and it's initial acceptance by the U.S. Army Signal Corps in 1905.


News of the Aurora, Texas incident remained dormant for almost a century, until May 24, 1973, when newspapers around the country published the following United Press International account:


"Aurora, Tex. -- (UPI) -- A grave in a small north Texas cemetery contains the body of an 1897 astronaut who "was not an inhabitant of this world," according to the International UFO Bureau. The group, which investigates unidentified flying objects, has already initiated legal proceedings to exhume the body and will go to court if necessary to open the grave, director Hayden Hewes said Wednesday.


"After checking the grave with metal detectors and gathering facts for three months, we are certain as we can be at this point [that] he was the pilot of a UFO which reportedly exploded atop a well on Judge J.S. Proctor's place, April 19, 1897," Hewes said. He was not an inhabitant of this world."


A few days later, another UPI account datelined Aurora quoted a ninety-one-year-old who had been a girl of fifteen in Aurora, Texas at the time of the reported incident. She said she "had all but forgotten the incident until it appeared in the newspapers recently." She said her parents had gone to the sight of the crash, but had refused to take her along. She recalled that the remains of the pilot, "a small man," had been buried in the Aurora, Texas cemetery.


Not to be outdone, the Associated Press, in a story datelined Denton, Texas, reported that "a North Texas State University professor had found some metal fragments near the Oates gas station (former Proctor farm). One fragment was said to be 'most intriguing' because it consisted primarily of iron which did not seem to exhibit magnetic properties." The professor also said he was puzzled because the fragment was "shiny and malleable instead of dull and brittle like iron."


The Aurora, Texas Cemetery Association was successful in blocking the attempts to dig up the grounds in search of the "Martian Pilot" , and the incident once again went underground (pun intended) until its centennial in 1997, which brought about another round of widespread press coverage.


In 1997, MUFON , the "Mutual Unidentified Flying Object Network" made a field investigation in the small town of Aurora, Texas, just north of Fort Worth. The results of our research were "unusual" to say the least... One of the first things that any visitor would notice when arriving in Aurora, Texas is that there are military traces everywhere in the town. It even boasts a small military type airport, circa 1940's, which was one of a chain of such minor installations built as emergency landing sites for aircraft being ferried from one coast to the other for wartime transshipment to Europe or Asia. Even the streets of town are laid out in typical "base" fashion. To anyone who ever served in the military, the signs of military habitations are clear. Of course, this is not unusual for the area, and as most researchers realize, it is extremely common for UFO activity to center around areas of military activity. The Roswell incident of 1947 occurred near the (then) only nuclear capable bomber base in the United States, as well as the U.S. nuclear test range, not to mention the primary aircraft test facility. This trend in Unidentified Flying Object activity continues to the present time, with numerous sightings taking place in, or near military reserves or facilities.


North Central Texas has always been a staging area for troops, going all the way back to the Indian Wars. Notably, there was an outpost in Aurora, Texas, or near it, during the Spanish American War of 1898, less than a year after the "airship" incident, and again during the 1916 "Border Action" against General "Pancho" Villa. This post was reactivated for the First World War, and again during the Second World War to service the small military airfield located near the town. Connally Air Force Base (now closed) in Ft. Worth, (which is less than 10 miles from Aurora, Texas as the crow flies), was for some time the headquarters of the U.S. Eighth Air Force, and it was there that the debris from the Roswell, New Mexico crash of 1947 were taken. Even now, Eighth Air Force headquarters is located in the same geographic area, only 180 miles away, at Barksdale Air Force Base, in the Shreveport/Bossier City, Louisiana area, which lies well within the area covered by the 1895/98 UFO sightings, and is still a hotbed of UFO activity.


Ft. Worth, itself, derives its name from a pre-civil war era army post, established to defend the area against marauding Indians. The installation was an active military reserve, actually made up of Fort Worth proper and several outlying outposts, on and off, until the mid 1880's. One of these, Fort Phantom Hill, was known, even as early as the 1850's for unusual sightings in the night sky.


Was the Aurora Texas incident a hoax? Was it the result of some natural occurrence? Was it simply the crash site of some primitive, experimental airship? It seems highly unlikely that the citizens of a tiny Texas town would combine their efforts to fabricate a story concerning something which had, up to then, been mentioned only rarely in fiction. One must ask what the possible gain from such a fabrication would be, and the answer is, of necessity, "none". The likelihood of a fabrication becomes even more remote when one considers the overall makeup of the local population at the time. The people who settled Texas were a resilient and resourceful group. However, flights of fancy of this nature were, in general, beyond them. Less that thirty percent of the population of Texas in the 1890's was functionally literate. It is highly unlikely that any of the citizens of Aurora, Texas had ever heard of an airship, of any kind, let alone seen one. Those who were literate, and had, therefore, possibly been exposed to the works of Wells and Verne (the most prominent writers of that time of what is now known as Science Fiction), were generally doctors, clergymen and teachers. men and women unlikely to engage in flights of fancy. It must also be remembered that almost the entire population of the town witnessed the crash, and saw the body of the pilot. Even though Aurora, Texas was small, even by the standards of the time, it is unlikely that a group of such numbers could consistently maintain the same, identical story. With regard to the other sightings of the time, the geographic area, while small, by today's standards, was great enough, at that time, to effectively eliminate any collusion. In short, the Aurora, Texas incident, and the sightings of 1895/98 have the ring of truth, given the circumstances of the time. It is hoped that future investigation will remove the stigma of ridicule that the U.S. Government has so laboriously applied to this event, and that the facts will, at long last, be known.-

© James L. Choron
August 5, 2004


----------



## fogtender

Didn't realize that was that long... started to get "Readers Cramp".... 

Good post though.


----------



## Lia

Guys, Here is a video that I'm having some problem watching on any of my computers; only in the sense that it needs to buffer before one can watch it. I don't know what the answer is, or indeed if'n it will prove to be a problem here in the thread, to view.

Altho I'm really out in the sticks and don't have fast broadband speed because of that, I don't, ordinarily, encounter slow buffering problems with other video viewing. In fact, I don't recall that I have had such problems for a good 3 years or so...

In any event, this video is extremely interesting, if controversial. I hope you all can get to watch it, and that it won't present the same problems with buffering for you, as it has for me. I know some of you here are computer savvy and will probably make a mockery of my poor attemtps to rectify it, lol.  

Yeah, yeah...    

In any event, here's the video.
http://newparadigm.no/web/guest/free-screening


----------



## Cowboy

Lia said:


> Guys, Here is a video that I'm having some problem watching on any of my computers; only in the sense that it needs to buffer before one can watch it. I don't know what the answer is, or indeed if'n it will prove to be a problem here in the thread, to view.
> 
> Altho I'm really out in the sticks and don't have fast broadband speed because of that, I don't, ordinarily, encounter slow buffering problems with other video viewing. In fact, I don't recall that I have had such problems for a good 3 years or so...
> 
> In any event, this video is extremely interesting, if controversial. I hope you all can get to watch it, and that it won't present the same problems with buffering for you, as it has for me. I know some of you here are computer savvy and will probably make a mockery of my poor attemtps to rectify it, lol.
> 
> Yeah, yeah...
> 
> In any event, here's the video.
> http://newparadigm.no/web/guest/free-screening


 Its a 3 part video it looks like , The first video brings up a message that says " Sorry we are unable to play this video" The second one works for me but is also loading a little slow but I think I can watch it .


----------



## Lia

Cowboy said:


> Its a 3 part video it looks like , The first video brings up a message that says " Sorry we are unable to play this video" The second one works for me but is also loading a little slow but I think I can watch it .


 
Yes, there are three videos in the series, but I was able to view the first one; well, I was able to view a small part of it, but got fed up with the buffering being so slow. What I did see of it tho (can't think why it's in my archives if'n I can't view it), was extremely promising, and I think you will regret not seeing it yourself.  ://

Sorry about that Bob.


----------



## Cowboy

Lia said:


> Yes, there are three videos in the series, but I was able to view the first one; well, I was able to view a small part of it, but got fed up with the buffering being so slow. What I did see of it tho (can't think why it's in my archives if'n I can't view it), was extremely promising, and I think you will regret not seeing it yourself. ://
> 
> Sorry about that Bob.


 Yes it looks interesting , I started out on the second one then paused it, and after a few minutes it plays great without stopping . You might give that a try Lia.


----------



## Lia

Cowboy said:


> Yes it looks interesting , I started out on the second one then paused it, and after a few minutes it plays great without stopping . You might give that a try Lia.


 
Strange, somehow it must be buffering on pause then?   


Ok, I'll give that a try then... thanks.


----------



## Lia

Not to decry in any way Cowboy's 'Battle of LA' post, because he's made some awesome contributions to this thread; but I thought y'all might like to see the original news broadcast of the actual event. 

Hilariously, they tried to pass the event off as a rogue weather balloon, but this went down the pan when over 1500 rounds of artillery shells couldn't bring it down. Yes sirree, that must have been some weather balloon. 

See, now that's why the government wanna keep this whole UFO controversy under wraps; I mean who'd admit that the greatest country in the world couldn't bring down a weather balloon? 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQmbGMWlL7w"]The Battle of L.A. UFO Attacked by U.S. Army - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## SShepherd

well, now we've gone into the name calling.. "nieve, arrogant, yadda yadda..spouting off...I don't agree with you, so now we're here

i did watch the "vids", I hardly call the experts unbiased, most have a book if not 10 they're trying to sell. Most of the guys have been putting out stuff since "In search of" was on Tv

I simply don't believe in little green men from other planets.


----------



## Lia

SShepherd said:


> well, now we've gone into the name calling.. "nieve, arrogant, yadda yadda..spouting off...I don't agree with you, so now we're here


 
Then if you don't agree, what is your interest in this thread? 



> i did watch the "vids", I hardly call the experts unbiased, most have a book if not 10 they're trying to sell. Most of the guys have been putting out stuff since "In search of" was on Tv


 
Well, firstly, anyone who had watched the video could hardly state with any degree of certainty that the Egyptians built the Pyramids, at least not the most complex and oldest ones.

As for the researchers having books on the market, what does that have to do with anything? Religion is on the market, big time. Practically non-stop! Books are published in their thousands by Christians and Ecclesiasts. Oh wait, its ok to make a living if one believes in a deity? Gimme a break! That is such a weak and irrelevant argument to the debate.



> I simply don't believe in little green men from other planets.


 
As far as I'm aware, neither do any of the serious researchers here, or elsewhere. The 'Little green men' flag waved at other worldly inhabitants believers is comic book stuff. Immature, and not worthy of a response. Just played to bait and try to derail the thread. I had you down for a little more dignity somehow.

Moving on...

Guys, heres another video. Let me first say that someone made the comment that the craft could be paper lanterns, and, they could be right. I'm divided on it. However, my Uncle is convinced that they are not paper lanterns. I don't know. Either way, the video is worthy of more research imho. It wouldn't be the first time that someone has mistaken some natural occurance for UFO's. We have to be totally objective here...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAzF8CmuNPo&NR=1&feature=fvwp"]7 UFOs Over Poland Flying Low [Must Watch!] - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## SShepherd

*As for the researchers having books on the market, what does that have to do with anything? Religion is on the market, big time. Practically non-stop! Books are published in their thousands by Christians and Ecclesiasts. Oh wait, its ok to make a living if one believes in a deity? Gimme a break! That is such a weak and irrelevant argument to the debate*.

well, God doesn't need or get the money...
It's only irrelevant because you don't want to think that there might be a bit of sensationalism , you know, to sell the book?


----------



## Lia

SShepherd said:


> *As for the researchers having books on the market, what does that have to do with anything? Religion is on the market, big time. Practically non-stop! Books are published in their thousands by Christians and Ecclesiasts. Oh wait, its ok to make a living if one believes in a deity? Gimme a break! That is such a weak and irrelevant argument to the debate*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> well, God doesn't need or get the money...
Click to expand...

 
'God' isn't getting the royalties, the authors and the churches are getting it all. There is no shame in earning a living wearing two hats. Many of these researchers are Scientists or professionals with good credentials and  years of study behind them, who are adding to their research and science. they're not afraid to look with an open mind. 



> It's only irrelevant because you don't want to think that there might be a bit of sensationalism , you know, to sell the book?


 
Uh??  Could you clarify that rather obscure comment?    

Wait, don't bother. Unless you have something to say in relation to the topic of the thread I would be obliged if you would stop trying to derail it or turn it into a religious debate. This topic is about ancient civilizations. Period!


----------



## Cowboy

SShepherd said:


> I don't agree with you, so now we're here
> 
> i did watch the "vids", I hardly call the experts unbiased, most have a book if not 10 they're trying to sell. Most of the guys have been putting out stuff since "In search of" was on Tv
> 
> I simply don't believe in little green men from other planets.


 

First off, I dont think anyone myself included "expects" these videos to change anyones mind . 

Secondly, I will agree a few of the experts do appear to have a more strong opinion then others, but IMO when I used the term unbiased is the way the videos are put together as well as how well there are narrated. Its all about " maybe and "what if" or at least thats the comes across for me. 


Third and last, Lets agree that more then likelly even aliens ( IF they exsisted ) would not have been able to create the entire universe they live in, and lets assume IF God did create the universe. Why would it not be posible for him to have created lifeforms with far more inteligence then us elsewhere in the universe? Why is that so far fetched ?

Sorry to go off topic again to religion Lia , but I would like to here the opinions.


----------



## fogtender

SShepherd said:


> *
> 
> well, God doesn't need or get the money...
> It's only irrelevant because you don't want to think that there might be a bit of sensationalism , you know, to sell the book?*


*

Yes, God doesn't get the money, Religion has turned into one of the biggest money making scams to relieve those that do believe from their money, in a false hope that they area going to be doing something good with it to do God's work.  Most of the time it is spent elsewhere, on opulence mostly.

Now if you would, start a thread about religion so we can debate there, this thread has nothing to do with the Bible or bashing people that believe in "God" of the bible.

This was started by Lia about "other" possible life forms and the possiblibility of their interaction over man's history.

Just asking to stay on topic. At times I'm as bad as anyone and try to stay the line, but mess up.*


----------



## Lia

Cowboy said:


> First off, I dont think anyone myself included "expects" these videos to change anyones mind .


 
Of course not. I don't think for one moment that others thought so either. This isn't about the videos, or the topic Bob. 



> Secondly, I will agree a few of the experts do appear to have a more strong opinion then others,


 
Not a thing wrong with having strong opinions. A few come to mind immediately... Albert Einstein did, Galileo did... Da Vinci, Churchill, even Florence Nightingale is not the quiet lady that history portrays her to be. They all made important contributions to the world.



> but IMO when I used the term unbiased is the way the videos are put together as well as how well there are narrated. Its all about " maybe and "what if" or at least thats the comes across for me.


 
The theories and concepts are no less plausible than religious interpretations, and far more visible actually.




> Third and last, Lets agree that more then likelly even aliens ( IF they exsisted ) would not have been able to create the entire universe they live in, and lets assume IF God did create the universe. Why would it not be posible for him to have created lifeforms with far more inteligence then us elsewhere in the universe? Why is that so far fetched ?
> 
> Sorry to go off topic again to religion Lia , but I would like to here the opinions.


 
At least you had the courtesy and good manners to discuss it with me first. Its a valid question; lets see what it brings forth.


----------



## Lia

Meanwhile, moving on, on topic, this skull, called 'The Starchild Skull' is over 900 years old... The DNA results, long awaited, have finally come thro.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moEYqLdupIA"]Starchild Skull 2010 DNA Result - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Lia

A series of 12 video's on the Starchild Skull. Starting with a history of the skull...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=kHxuUmgt_SE


----------



## SShepherd

Lia said:


> Meanwhile, moving on, on topic, this skull, called 'The Starchild Skull' is over 900 years old... The DNA results, long awaited, have finally come thro.
> 
> Starchild Skull 2010 DNA Result - YouTube


 

I'd like to see an unbiased scientist speak about the data. I hear alot of "not human, so it must be from outer space".The guy has alot of himself wrapped into the "starchild" skull, jumping to the idea it must be extraterrestrial from the very get go.
Remember, there's a very tiny ammount of difference between a human and ape. Interesting for sure, and I'd like to hear what/where it came from, but jumping to the conclusion it's something extrarerrestrial before exhausting all other venues is not "scientific" by any means.


----------



## Lia

SShepherd said:


> I'd like to see an unbiased scientist speak about the data


 

Then go find one! I ain’t your research assistant! A scientist is a scientist! Every opinion is based in bias to some degree. Moreover, you should take more care when delving into things that you don’t really have a clue about. The above video series is over a year old now, and is out of date. The DNA test results are now thro, and are available to anyone who is interested. 

Oh, and just to clarify*, no-one here, including myself, has claimed that this skull is of extraterrestrial origin.* This whole thread is about researching the evidence into whether ancient civilizations were from other planets, and their existence was misinterpreted as ‘god/s.’ This skull may be the 'smoking gun,' and is the reason for why I placed the links to it in this thread; for study and research. 




> I hear alot of "not human, so it must be from outer space".The guy has alot of himself wrapped into the "starchild" skull, jumping to the idea it must be extraterrestrial from the very get go.


 
Ten years of his life, but had you been really watching the video you would have heard that he has privately funded the skull thro a battery of medical tests, and bankrupting himself, at one time, in the process...

*Many strangely "deformed" hominoid skulls have been discovered in Mexico and Peru. *This skull, however, is the only one that is under scientific investigation, and but for this man it would not be happening. We owe him a great deal for his time, tenacity and curiosity. 




> Remember, there's a very tiny ammount of difference between a human and ape. Interesting for sure, and I'd like to hear what/where it came from, but jumping to the conclusion it's something extrarerrestrial before exhausting all other venues is not "scientific" by any means.


 
Which is what you yourself are doing, and you have been doing so since you came into the thread. Far from ‘just assuming’ that this is something or nothing, this man has gone to great lengths and spent many years trying to prove his claims. And he’s not alone in his belief, in the scientific world, that this skull is only partially human. Several Canadian Scientists and Surgeons have studied the skull. 

Of course, they have the credentials to make their claims, which you do not have, presumably, so what makes you arrogantly assume that these highly trained professionals are merely assuming anything, or that you know better than they?

For those who are genuinely interested in studying this anomaly here is an excellent site for comparison to human or other skulls:
http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_6.htm



> *Further:*
> Lloyd’s theory is gathering a surprising amount of support from scientists and doctors. Dr Ted Robinson, a Canadian craniofacial surgeon who trained at the Mount Vernon Centre for Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery, Middlesex, says that Lloyd Pye may indeed be correct. Dr Robinson spent twelve months studying the skull using some of the most powerful scientific tests available and probed its secrets using the latest brain scanning techniques.
> 
> “This skull is unique,” says Dr Robinson. “It’s not the skull of a deformed child. This is my area of expertise and I can state categorically that this skull’s shape is not the result of a human abnormality. I have also sought out the expertise of leading neurologists, paediatricians and surgeons. Every one has agreed with me. It’s not a deformed human skull. It is something else entirely.
> 
> “The Starchild Skull is a total enigma. Maybe it is the skull of an alien. I simply don’t know.”
> 
> Despite a decade of intensive efforts, scientists have been unable to find evidence to either confirm or refute Lloyd’s claims. At every turn, the Starchild Skull thwarts their best efforts. It’s almost as if it’s mocking them from the grave.
> 
> It is clear that the creature died at least 900 years ago. That’s interesting but hardly earth-shattering. What is strange, though, is its remarkable degree of preservation. It seems to be largely untouched by time. American and Canadian researchers have now discovered why. The skull is not made from normal bone but from an unknown material that is far stronger and lighter.
> 
> “The material is ridiculously strong,” says Dr Jason Eshleman, Senior Research Director of Trace Genetics in Davis, California. “It’s like nothing I’ve ever come across before. It’s entirely natural but half the weight of bone and twice as strong. It’s very odd.”
> 
> To make matters even more intriguing, the skull appears to be reinforced with tough red fibres [Dr. Penman is confused between the red residue found in the Starchild's cancellous holes, and the extremely resilient fibers (U.S. spelling) found woven through the actual matrix of the bone. Neither the fibers nor the residue are known in any other animal on earth.] from another unknown material. These have never been seen before in any earthly creature. Researchers have also discovered numerous inexplicable details in the Starchild Skull that are not found in humans or in any of our closest ape relatives.
> 
> “You can’t find any part of the skull that’s the same as the human equivalent,” says Lloyd. “We’ve documented 24 distinct physical differences between the Starchild skull and that of a typical human. Everything from its overall shape to the dimensions of the skull, inner ear, eye sockets and neck are completely different.”
> 
> This evidence is, no doubt, very interesting and suggestive but it hardly proves that the Starchild is an alien. Lloyd does, however, have an ace up his sleeve that leaves even me grasping for an explanation.
> 
> Several years ago Lloyd commissioned a series of genetic paternity tests on the skull from one of the most respected scientists in the field. Dr Jason Eshleman, of Trace Genetics, is renowned for his ability to extract and analyse the DNA from bodies that are thousands of years old. If you give him a 5,000 year old chip of tooth or bone, the chances are he’ll be able to give you a complete genetic run-down of the person it came from. If you’re lucky, he’ll be able to tell you the colour of his hair and eyes too.
> 
> Dr Eshleman spent months studying the skull and came to a startling conclusion: the Starchild had a human mother but there was no trace of an earthly father. This could be because his tests were not sensitive enough to detect the father’s genes – which is unlikely - or he did not have a human father. Because of the startling implications of these results, Dr Eshleman ran his tests six times. And every time he produced the same result.
> 
> “If dad was a normal human, one of those six attempts would have proven it,” says Lloyd. “Only one stark conclusion can be drawn. Dad was not a human.”
> 
> Of course, sceptics will say there is another conclusion to be drawn: that Lloyd is a well-meaning eccentric who has lost contact with reality. But those who have worked with him say this is wrong.
> 
> “Lloyd is clearly not nuts,” says Dr Eshleman. “He has been perfectly responsible in the way that he has researched and analysed the skull. Make of the results what you will.”
> 
> So what are we to make of them? I have spent many years exploring South America and I must confess that Lloyd’s findings agree with legends that extraterrestrials periodically visit the region. Indeed, wherever you travel in south and central America, there are myths concerning a race of aliens who descended to earth and taught the native Indians the skills necessary to build an advanced civilisation.
> 
> http://2012rising.com/article/the-starchild-skull-lloyd-pye-interviews-e-book


 
Dated by Carbon-14, the Starchild skull has been led through a battery of scientific testing over the past ten years by caretaker Lloyd Pye to prove whether or not the skull is human or hybrid (human-extraterrestrial based). Funded predominately by Lloyd Pye and his supporters, the tests include CAT scans, X-rays, radiocarbon dating, bone scans, scanning electron microscope analysis, mitochondrial DNA analysis, and nuclear DNA recovery. According to Pye's team, the results ruled out known normal deformities of any human bone profile.

Present Research On The Starchild Skull

The DNA of the Starchild previously conducted in the summer of 2003 was analyzed and sequenced by Trace Genetics, a modern DNA-testing laboratory committed to providing optimal DNA results. The lab is known for specializing in genetic identity DNA analysis while focusing in ancestry genealogy, forensics, molecular diagnostics and population genetics. 

Trace Genetics was chosen by Pye because of its reputation in continuing efforts to pioneer new methods, setting new industry standards for both service and reliability which has made them industry leaders in ancient DNA analysis. 

In the studies, two DNA types were researched and studied in the Starchild skull. One was the mother's DNA--the mitochondrial DNA---and the second was the nuclear DNA, which was the entire genomic package derived from both parents. The mother's DNA was found easily, and proved the mother was of human origin. 

But six attempts on the nuclear DNA failed and could not be recovered. According to Lloyd Pye, this was an overwhelming indication that the father was not of human origin. To go into further detail and see what the genetic heritage of both parents consisted of, another type of test will be needed to recover the skull's entire genome. 

This next step in the DNA testing process will require a new technology developed at Roche Applied System Company (previously known as 454 Life Sciences). This step will allow the sequencing of an entire genome base-pair by base-pair for a total of 3.0 billion, the number of a typical human. Called the " Genome Sequencer™ system", it can recover and sequence the entire genome of the Starchild Skull to compare it to other genomes (ex: humans, chimps, or Neanderthal). 

This is a step that is necessary for the skull's genetic heritage to be conclusively resolved. Unfortunately, this is a step that is will cost approximately $200,000. Any profits from the Starchild Skull conferences, books and products will assist in future research, testing, and public awareness programs for the Starchild Project. Donations from anyone interested in supporting this testing can be given at the Starchild Project website. 

Overview of the Starchild Skull from Lloyd Pye's Starchild Website

•The skull's bone is about half as thick as normal human bone.
• The bone is substantially stronger than any known bone on planet Earth, with a mineral profile more like dental enamel than bone. 
• The bone was radio carbon dated to be 900 years old (+/- 40 years).
• The bone of the skull contains microscopic fibers that have never been seen before in the bone of any animal. 

• Attempts to recover DNA from the skull easily produced its mitochondrial DNA, which proved its mother was fully human.
• However, no nuclear DNA could be recovered using human-only primers, which strongly indicates that the skull's father was something other than a typical human. 
• The bone of the skull contains microscopic fibers that have never been seen before in the bone of any animal.

http://nlhouser.hubpages.com/hub/The-Mysterious-Skull-of-the-Starchild


----------



## Lia

BLAST report on the Starchild Skull's Nuclear DNA​In this report we see that one length of 265 base pairs from the Starchild Skull’s nuclear DNA matches perfectly with a gene on human chromosome 1. This verifies that at least some of the nuclear DNA from the Starchild is from a human being.

In the next screen shot (below) a string of 342 base pairs recovered from the Starchild Skull was analyzed. This time the result reads: "*No significant similarity found.* _For reasons why, click here_.” Those “reasons why” are an automatically generated list of possible procedural errors designed to help geneticists check all possible flaws in their testing techniques. Our geneticist has verified his procedures and replicated his results, indicating that no such mistakes were made.
BLAST report on the Starchild Skull's Nuclear DNA​To have recovered a string of base pairs 342 nucleotides long with NO reference in the NIH database is astounding because it means there is NO known earthly corollary for what has been analyzed!

Please understand that these results have now been repeated and verified several times. Strings of Starchild DNA over 3000 base pairs long have failed to match with anything in the NIH database. Despite that, skeptics will be obligated by their positions to try to say it is some kind of genetic gibberish or a mistake made during the analysis process. Why? Because, in the words of philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer: “Every truth passes through three stages. First it is ridiculed. Second it is violently opposed. Third it is accepted as being self-evident.”

Luckily, any protest can easily be overcome with continued repetition and reproduction of results, isolating more and more unique fragments to add to the library of data already being created from Starchild DNA.

Our geneticist is confident that complete confirmation will unfold over the following months as the Starchild Skull’s entire genome is recovered using advanced sequencing technology. Ultimately, he will be able to formally announce that he has absolute, ironclad proof that a significant part of the Starchild's genome cannot be found on Earth.
See link for illustrations:  http://www.starchildproject.com/dna2010.htm
Lloyd Pye’s website:   http://www.lloydpye.com/


----------



## Cowboy

Lia said:


> Meanwhile, moving on, on topic, this skull, called 'The Starchild Skull' is over 900 years old... The DNA results, long awaited, have finally come thro.


Very interesting video's, articles and data Lia , Thanks for posting these. I have watched the video's and followed all of the links and found what appears to be some updated links within the links that appear to be much newer I will post them below .

It seems now they are needing an investor and not just donations because it will take closer to 7 million dollars to provide the tests needed to make it absolute fact enough to please the sceptics. Of coarse the comments by the unbiased expert sceptics come as no surprise to me when they explain the fibers found within the skull can be immediatlly discarded by the fact it was more then likely dropped on a carpet .  There is no doubt in my mind that even with facts and evidence there are those out there that will never be satisfied because they are afraid of the real "Truth" . 

If any of these links are repeats I appologise and will remove them if you would like . 

http://www.lloydpye.com/starchild.htm

http://www.starchildproject.com/dna2011laymans.htm

http://www.starchildproject.com/dna2011march.htm

http://www.starchildproject.com/SCS%20mtDNA%20Report%203-25-11.pdf

*Conclusion & Call To Action:*
After 12 years of struggle, the Starchild Skull is truly poised to make history. When we have secured the funding needed to carry out the recovery and sequencing of its entire genome, it will provide uncontestable proof that at least once, 900 years ago, a being somewhat like us but definitely not human lived and died and was buried on our planet. 

Unfortunately, achieving that historic moment requires far more than the Starchild Project team can deliver without substantial help. A wealthy investor—not merely a donor, an _investor_—must be found to provide the funding necessary to do what must be done. 

In this extraordinarily special case, the investment needed is $7 million USD. Why that amount? Every step of the DNA recovery and sequencing process will have to be verified with multiple repetitions until no possible doubt remains about any specific result. Also, in order that those completed results can be confirmed by independent researchers, the entire process must be recorded on film for academic scrutiny and historic posterity.

The Starchild Project intends to incorporate some of that footage into creating two theater-quality documentary films during the 1.5 to 3 years required for the DNA’s recovery and analysis. These films will cover the Starchild Skull’s entire story, from its discovery to completion of the DNA analyses. They will be valuable both historically, as the record of this milestone event in human history, and financially, as market research indicates they will be enthusiastically welcomed in virtually every country on Earth.

It should be obvious to anyone that much more than $7 million can be made from two high quality films about such a pivotal shift in human awareness. If anyone reading this report personally knows anyone who might be interested in taking a front-and-center position as this historic event unfolds, please ask them to email: contact@StarchildProject.com.

A business proposal is available to any serious potential investor. The film project already has its producers, director, entertainment attorney, accountant, production team, and the enthusiastic cooperation of a state film council. Everything is in place except for the investment, the final hurdle that now requires only one astute decision to clear it.
*Final Note:*
Explanations and terminology in this report are aimed at non-experts. Those with expert knowledge in genetics will naturally find its concepts and descriptions simplified.

The identity of certain research team members requires temporary anonymity. Their names will be revealed when they are ready to formally release reports for peer scrutiny.

Potential investors who want to know more, or to verify our geneticist’s work, can meet with him and tour his lab if they sign a Non-Disclosure Agreement. This will be on a case-by-case basis.​


----------



## Lia

Cowboy said:


> If any of these links are repeats I appologise and will remove them if you would like .


 
No, don't remove them Bob. From the 'views listing' it looks as if there is a good deal of interest in the thread, and some may have missed links previously, and will be glad to not have to delve back thro the thread to look for them again. 

Good post!  Thanks for the input.


----------



## SShepherd

Lia, you need to chill out
I stayed on topic like you asked, yet you continue to name call simply because I don't agree with you.
You need to get over the fact I'm not attacking you, I'm questioning the assumptions made by the people in the Vid.


----------



## Lia

SShepherd said:


> Lia, you need to chill out
> I stayed on topic like you asked, yet you continue to name call simply because I don't agree with you.
> You need to get over the fact I'm not attacking you, I'm questioning the assumptions made by the people in the Vid.


 
DNA results are hardly assumtions Shep! I have not called you names, and it doesn't bother me that you disagree with me. I'm not going to lose sleep over the fact that you don't believe in something. What does bothers me however, is that you are spouting off with such venom without bothering to thoroughly examine the research. 

You may not realize this Shep, but a Geneticist is a Scientist. A Geneticist carried out the DNA tests, not Lloyde Pye, a perfectly respected author, who, incidently, shelled out to the tune of thousands, so that this could be investigated properly. In fact, despite your censure of him, he has bent over backwards to put the skull thro all the proper channels and tests, with respectable laboratories, and respected scientists. What more would you have him do?


----------



## jpr62902

I've only done cursory read of this thread, so I apologize if this info has already ben posted.

The starchild skull also has a more mundane explanation: hydrocephalus.


----------



## Cowboy

jpr62902 said:


> I've only done cursory read of this thread, so I apologize if this info has already ben posted.
> 
> The starchild skull also has a more mundane explanation: hydrocephalus.


 Thats interesting JP, and that deformaty has been around since ancient times also very well documented as well as very common even today. I say this because from what I have read , every known deformity to man has allready been ruled out .There is also a major difference in how this skull attaches to the body.  This is just a snippet from one of the links I posted above. 

*THE STARCHILD SKULL*
In addition to writing and lecturing, Lloyd Pye is Director of the* Starchild Project*, a research organization that has been investigating the Starchild Skull since February of 1999.

Lloyd initially thought the skull's *unusual physical characteristics* must be the result of some kind of deformity, but he soon learned no technically valid explanation for it existed. The most unusual features of the skull include bone that is half as thick and heavy as normal human bone but is significantly more durable; fibers and residue within the matrix of the bone; and an abundance of skull deformations that would be fatal in any normal human. The Starchild Skull is unique in every significant aspect.



The Starchild Skull is a human-like bone skull independently radiocarbon dated at 900 years old (+/- 40 years). It is unlike any other skull that has ever been found or presented for inspection. It is unique in the world.​ 
The "Starchild" name resulted from early X-rays of a maxilla fragment detached from the skull. It had two visible teeth and five unerupted crowns embedded in the bone above. That, combined with a slightly-less-than-normal-adult size of the skull and the infant size of the maxilla fragment indicated a child of 5 or 6. However, subsequent examination by experts has led them to suggest  that this age is not necessarily accurate.
From extremely shallow eye sockets to total lack of frontal sinuses, the Starchild skull's physical traits cannot be accounted for by any known combination of deformities. The bone itself has a biochemical signature more like tooth enamel than bone, unlike anything currently known. And inside that unusual bone are microscopic fibers and a red residue that so far defy explanation.​


----------



## Lia

jpr62902 said:


> I've only done cursory read of this thread, so I apologize if this info has already ben posted.
> 
> The starchild skull also has a more mundane explanation: hydrocephalus.


 
Its a valid point jpr, or would have been had not so many and extensive tests been carried out over the last 12 years on the skull. Hydrocephalus would have been one of the first diseases to have been explored for it's 'condition.'

The other thing is the DNA results, which rather rule out such abnormalities thro disease.

No need to apologize either. You haven't replicated anything, but if you had it wouldn't be a problem. This thread is all about research and speculation. Repetition is often necessary for others to grasp the implications of an issue. I know that I myself learn by repetition in certain area's, technology for starters, lol. I need to be shown many times how to program an electrical device, such as a DVD player.


----------



## fogtender

The Crystal Skulls are interesting. They were from all over the world found in civilizations that had no apparent contact with each other or the ability to carve Crystal either.

http://www.crystalskulls.com/?gclid=CLWfh-OvhKsCFeUZQgodOkofzw


----------



## Cowboy

fogtender said:


> The Crystal Skulls are interesting. They were from all over the world found in civilizations that had no apparent contact with each other or the ability to carve Crystal either.
> 
> http://www.crystalskulls.com/?gclid=CLWfh-OvhKsCFeUZQgodOkofzw


 Yes they are interesting allthough a couple of them have been proven to be faked, the rest are genuine. They are covered in a few of the episodes of the series posted as well .


----------



## Lia

And, along similar lines of research for ancient knowledge of extraterrestrial life-forms, is this anomaly. I'm not saying that this depiction is definitively an Alien Grey, but there's no proof it isn't either. Just, well, curious... 

http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicegypt.htm


----------



## Cowboy

My wife and I just got dont watching the entire 3 seasons and every episode. Its a lot to take in but very well worth watching IMO , they covered far more then I was even aware of before and some of the evidence is amazing . Its still up to anyone to make up their own minds but somehow I doubt many are even watching the series.

  I will post a short 15 minute one which is the very last video in the 3 season series, so if anyone is watching the series in order you might want to pass this one up untill you watch the previous ones . If this short video wont at least make you ask questions about how they had such inteligence and technology then I dont know what else to say.  


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83B8s0H6tQQ&feature=channel_video_title"]Ancient Aliens Season 3 Episode 6 (PART 3/3)      - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## jpr62902

Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not seeing where hydrocephalus has been ruled out as an explanation.


----------



## Cowboy

jpr62902 said:


> Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not seeing where hydrocephalus has been ruled out as an explanation.


 

I thought this Quote below perty well meant it was ruled out . If someone like me is aware of that type of a medical condition. I cant imagine someone with experience and knowledge throwing 100's of thousands of dollars and 12 years of his time at it. 


"Starchild skull's physical traits cannot be accounted for by any known combination of deformities. The bone itself has a biochemical signature more like tooth enamel than bone, unlike anything currently known. And inside that unusual bone are microscopic fibers and a red residue that so far defy explanation."


----------



## jpr62902

Cowboy said:


> I thought this Quote below perty well meant it was ruled out . If someone like me is aware of that type of a medical condition. I cant imagine someone with experience and knowledge throwing 100's of thousands of dollars and 12 years of his time at it.
> 
> 
> "*Starchild skull's physical traits cannot be accounted for by any known combination of deformities. The bone itself has a biochemical signature more like tooth enamel than bone, unlike anything currently known. And inside that unusual bone are microscopic fibers and a red residue that so far defy explanation*."


 
What's the source of this quote?


----------



## Cowboy

jpr62902 said:


> What's the source of this quote?


 The very first link I posted in post # 88 , but here it is again . 

http://www.lloydpye.com/starchild.htm


----------



## Lia

Cowboy said:


> My wife and I just got dont watching the entire 3 seasons and every episode. Its a lot to take in but very well worth watching IMO , they covered far more then I was even aware of before and some of the evidence is amazing . Its still up to anyone to make up their own minds but somehow I doubt many are even watching the series.
> 
> I will post a short 15 minute one which is the very last video in the 3 season series, so if anyone is watching the series in order you might want to pass this one up untill you watch the previous ones . If this short video wont at least make you ask questions about how they had such inteligence and technology then I dont know what else to say.
> 
> 
> Ancient Aliens Season 3 Episode 6 (PART 3/3) - YouTube


 
I post the link to the series, and you not only are streets ahead of me already, lol but you've brought so much more to the thread than I could have done, alone. I can't give you rep yet for this post, but I will. 

I haven't even gotten around to series 3 yet.   

Nice one Bob.


----------



## jpr62902

Cowboy said:


> The very first link I posted in post # 88 , but here it is again .
> 
> http://www.lloydpye.com/starchild.htm


 
It seems Lloyd Pye has his detractors.  Ironically enough, the reconstruction animation on his website looks astonishingly like the pic of the hydrocephalic infant that I posted.


----------



## jpr62902

Apparently, Lloyd Pye believes that the pyramids in Egypt were built by aliens.


----------



## Cowboy

jpr62902 said:


> It seems Lloyd Pye has his detractors. Ironically enough, the reconstruction animation on his website looks astonishingly like the pic of the hydrocephalic infant that I posted.


 Yes it does look like it on the outside, but the other anomolys that are found according to the other articles I have read rule it out IMHO. 

  As far as him having detracters, anyone that had a complete UFO WITH live Aliens included, would still not convince most of the skeptics that beleive we are the most inteligent life form on earth . 

   Not only that but if anyone did have that kind of proof it would be confiscated as all other evidence has been in the past , and as usuall It would be as if it never happened .


----------



## Cowboy

jpr62902 said:


> Apparently, Lloyd Pye believes that the pyramids in Egypt were built by aliens.


 Not that I have heard of allthough there are some experts that think so , most just seem to think extraterestials supplyed the knowledge as well as tools . You would have to look at all of the evidence provided to make up your own mind though . You could start with the short vid I posted a little bit ago if you are interested.


----------



## fogtender

Cowboy said:


> My wife and I just got dont watching the entire 3 seasons and every episode. Its a lot to take in but very well worth watching IMO , they covered far more then I was even aware of before and some of the evidence is amazing . Its still up to anyone to make up their own minds but somehow I doubt many are even watching the series.
> 
> I will post a short 15 minute one which is the very last video in the 3 season series, so if anyone is watching the series in order you might want to pass this one up untill you watch the previous ones . If this short video wont at least make you ask questions about how they had such inteligence and technology then I dont know what else to say.
> 
> 
> Ancient Aliens Season 3 Episode 6 (PART 3/3)      - YouTube



That was pretty neat, have seen the series before, and still like watching them again.


----------



## SShepherd

Lia said:


> DNA results are hardly assumtions Shep! I have not called you names, and it doesn't bother me that you disagree with me. I'm not going to lose sleep over the fact that you don't believe in something. What does bothers me however, is that you are spouting off with such venom without bothering to thoroughly examine the research.
> 
> You may not realize this Shep, but a Geneticist is a Scientist. A Geneticist carried out the DNA tests, not Lloyde Pye, a perfectly respected author, who, incidently, shelled out to the tune of thousands, so that this could be investigated properly. In fact, despite your censure of him, he has bent over backwards to put the skull thro all the proper channels and tests, with respectable laboratories, and respected scientists. What more would you have him do?


 
I have no venom, you must have added some inflection in my posts that weren't there.

Ok, so we've herd the opinion of one author and one geneticist. I'd like to hear more.I wouldn't get surgery based on a single opinion, and I don't get work done on my home based on what a single person says.
 Try not to be condecending, I'm well aware of what and whom are "scientists".


----------



## Cowboy

SShepherd said:


> I have no venom, you must have added some inflection in my posts that weren't there.
> 
> Ok, so we've herd the opinion of one author and one geneticist. I'd like to hear more.I wouldn't get surgery based on a single opinion, and I don't get work done on my home based on what a single person says.
> Try not to be condecending, I'm well aware of what and whom are "scientists".


 http://www.starchildproject.com/SCS mtDNA Report 3-25-11.pdf


----------



## Cowboy

fogtender said:


> That was pretty neat, have seen the series before, and still like watching them again.


 
 As far as I know Foggy the last vid I posted only just 9-1-2011 and is still an on going series . 

http://www.history.com/shows/ancient-aliens/episodes


----------



## fogtender

Cowboy said:


> As far as I know Foggy the last vid I posted only just 9-1-2011 and is still an on going series .
> 
> http://www.history.com/shows/ancient-aliens/episodes



Yeah, I watched it again in the full showing last night on the tube. Was good!

Showed all the detailed work on both sides of the planet, and computer accuracy carvings that can only be matched in the modern era this last forty years or so.


----------



## Cowboy

Thats great Foggy , thanks I'm glad someone takes the time to view the video's because I find them very educational myself . 

  I dont want to take this thread off track from where Lia had intended it to go but I'm going to post a short video I think everyone needs to watch. It has been posted on AOL news before earlier this year, but I had never seen it before . This is the article and video. Below that I will repost a link Lia posted earlier I think might have got overlooked that is a 3 part 35 minute video series called "the The day before disclosure" . 

  I watched it all this morning and its the best evidence and proof I have seen ever, and the people interviewed are talking first hand experiences. They are military official, astronauts, police officers from all over and mostly retired where they no longer fear talking about it . Please dont take my word for it and do yourselves a favor, because it ends up making perfect sense and it could be the very thing needed to save us from self distruction .  Thankyou to anyone that takes the time. 

*Former Canadian Defense Official Blasts US on UFO Cover-Up*

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/02/25/f...asts-us-on-ufo-cover-up/?a_dgi=aolshare_email

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGyFWyNuF3s&feature=player_embedded"]UFO Contact - Former Canadian Defence Minister - Disclosure 2011 ?      - YouTube[/ame]


http://newparadigm.no/web/guest/free-screening


----------



## fogtender

Cowboy said:


> Thats great Foggy , thanks I'm glad someone takes the time to view the video's because I find them very educational myself .



All these are great, will watch this one a bit later when I get settled down!  But looking forward to it!


----------



## fogtender

Cowboy said:


> *Former Canadian Defense Official Blasts US on UFO Cover-Up*
> 
> http://www.aolnews.com/2011/02/25/f...asts-us-on-ufo-cover-up/?a_dgi=aolshare_email
> 
> UFO Contact - Former Canadian Defense Minister - Disclosure 2011 ? - YouTube
> 
> 
> http://newparadigm.no/web/guest/free-screening


 

That was a good video, but my complaint with it is that it doesn't provide any information other than what he is saying. If he has this knowledge, why isn't it being referenced to where and whom. 

I don't know if what he is saying is fact or fiction, Gore painted the Global Warming thing as if it was Gospel, but that is now coming apart because of the faked science, but he convinced millions that it was factual.

When these guys speak of such stuff from a level of Authority, they need to put the details into it so that it has merit as well. I'm onboard with a lot of the ideals of ET, but also like to have the stuff to touch you might say as well when they give these types of talks.

Even if it was just a report that the Canadian Government put out... He was part of that, shouldn't there be a report somewhere of these aircraft being dropped out of the sky?

It helps to build a storyline with factual tidbits in there as well.

IMHO, still liked the video though and others should watch it!


----------



## Cowboy

fogtender said:


> That was a good video, but my complaint with it is that it doesn't provide any information other than what he is saying. If he has this knowledge, why isn't it being referenced to where and whom.
> 
> I don't know if what he is saying is fact or fiction, Gore painted the Global Warming thing as if it was Gospel, but that is now coming apart because of the faked science, but he convinced millions that it was factual.
> 
> When these guys speak of such stuff from a level of Authority, they need to put the details into it so that it has merit as well. I'm onboard with a lot of the ideals of ET, but also like to have the stuff to touch you might say as well when they give these types of talks.
> 
> Even if it was just a report that the Canadian Government put out... He was part of that, shouldn't there be a report somewhere of these aircraft being dropped out of the sky?
> 
> It helps to build a storyline with factual tidbits in there as well.
> 
> IMHO, still liked the video though and others should watch it!


Yes I agree Foggy, thats why I reposted Lias link with - 35 minute vids below it . 
http://newparadigm.no/web/guest/free-screening 


It very much relates to the worldwide UFO conferences & the Disclosure project that have been being held the last few years with officials from all over the world including the Vatican. There is another whole series of vids from these conferences but I think these 3 vids have enough evidence that it should be enough to convince just about anyone that we are being lied to and the evidence has been there all along . 

Roswell was NOT a hoax but a government coverup , these videos provide the evidence and interviews from very credible retired military officials that are sick of it being covered up.


----------



## Cowboy

Here is another great recent documentary that is full of evidence and testimony. It just seems like most just dont really care enough to watch to make up their own minds. 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GpadrhpUG0"]Secret Access: UFOs On The Record (History Channel FULL)      - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Cowboy

Here is another interesting article much like the Ancient structures all over the world but built much more recently suposedly by just one man right here in the USA. He claimed to have known the secrets of how the ancient ancestors did it. 

Another link here with more info and pics. 
http://www.rense.com/general39/coral.htm






http://www.livescience.com/680-mysterious-coral-castle-fanciful-myth.html







The Mysterious Coral Castle: A Fanciful Myth

About 30 miles south of Miami, Florida
	
, in a town called Homestead, lies an unusual—some would say impossible—structure, composed of coral rock. Called the Coral Castle, it has a colorful past.  It was the life's work of a reclusive Latvian immigrant named Edward Leedskalnin, who built the complex after being jilted by his sixteen-year-old sweetheart on their wedding day. 
As a tribute to his love, Leedskalnin allegedly cut, quarried, and raised the castle, consisting of more than 1,000 tons of coral rock formed into furniture and large slabs. He began his work in 1920 and continued until his death in 1951. 
Under any circumstances the castle is a remarkable feat, though how exactly the man did it has puzzled many, for he supposedly worked without assistance or the use of modern machinery. 


Many sources suggest that the castle is scientifically inexplicable. One typical magazine article claimed, "The question that has perplexed engineers and scientists for decades is how such a tiny, uneducated man single-handedly built such a place." According to the castle's Web site, "Coral Castle has baffled scientists, engineers, and scholars since its opening in 1923." 

The castle has been featured in dozens of magazines and books on the unexplained, as well as on television shows such as "In Search Of," "That's Incredible" and "Ripley's Believe It Or Not." 
British rocker Billy Idol even wrote a hit song about Leedskalnin's story, "Sweet Sixteen."
Over the decades, many stories and wild theories have emerged about Leedskalnin and his castle. Some say he levitated the blocks with his mind, or by singing to the stones. Others suggest Leedskalnin had arcane knowledge of magnetism and so-called "earth energies." One author suggested that perhaps Leedskalnin found that "there's no such thing as gravity." Since science supposedly could not explain the feat, wild speculation took hold.
It's easy to claim the castle defies scientific explanation, but searches for the investigations made by perplexed and baffled scientists come up empty. Despite the information on their Web site, the Coral Castle information booth was unable to identify a single scientist or engineer who had specifically examined the castle. This puts the claim in a whole new light, since "hasn't explained" is clearly not the same as "can't explain." 
There is one detail that virtually all agree on: since the reclusive Leedskalnin spent nearly thirty years working mostly at night and away from prying eyes, no one actually saw him move the coral. Since no one saw the blocks actually being moved, no one can state for certain that the task was accomplished by Leedskalnin alone. The claim that Leedskalnin didn't use modern (post-1920s) tools is obviously true, but the mistake is in assuming that modern tools are required to move the large blocks of coral. 
Ultimately—and ironically—the solution may lie in Leedskalnin's own simple explanation: that he did it using principles of weight and leverage. "I have discovered the secrets of the pyramids," he said, employing the same methods used by ancient Egyptians. If Leedskalnin was being truthful, then the mystery is solved, for the methods by which the Egyptian pyramids could be constructed are well understood (see, for example, Mark Lehner's 1997 book _The Complete Pyramids_). 
Photos exist of large tripods, pulleys, and winches at the Coral Castle site, and several sources  (e.g., Wallace Wallington's Web site http://www.theforgottentechnology.com) demonstrate how massive weights can be moved by one or two people using simple physics. (The comparisons to Egypt's pyramids are a red herring; there are vast differences in weight, material, and complexity between the castle's coral slabs and the huge stone pyramids at Giza. Because coral is porous, large blocks appear heavier than they actually are.)
Many mystery mongers arrogantly assume that those living in earlier times (such as Leedskalnin, or the ancient Egyptians) were not clever or resourceful enough to possibly have created impressive engineering feats without extraterrestial aid or mysterious powers. This view betrays an ignorance of history and sadly underestimates human ingenuity. It seems likely that if scientists haven't explained the Coral Castle specifically, it's because there's little to "explain." The Coral Castle mystery seems to be simply a matter of poorly-informed people who reject a mundane reality in favor of a fanciful myth.


----------



## Lia

Sorry, deleted post, quoted the wrong person, lol.  Sorry Cowboy.


----------



## Lia

fogtender said:


> That was a good video, but my complaint with it is that it doesn't provide any information other than what he is saying. If he has this knowledge, why isn't it being referenced to where and whom.
> 
> I don't know if what he is saying is fact or fiction, Gore painted the Global Warming thing as if it was Gospel, but that is now coming apart because of the faked science, but he convinced millions that it was factual.
> 
> When these guys speak of such stuff from a level of Authority, they need to put the details into it so that it has merit as well. I'm onboard with a lot of the ideals of ET, but also like to have the stuff to touch you might say as well when they give these types of talks.
> 
> Even if it was just a report that the Canadian Government put out... He was part of that, shouldn't there be a report somewhere of these aircraft being dropped out of the sky?
> 
> It helps to build a storyline with factual tidbits in there as well.
> 
> IMHO, still liked the video though and others should watch it!


 
Foggy, I posted this video on another forum around a year of two ago. Here's the thing. *He's not alone;* many prominent military, defense and political personnel have come forward over the last decade, over 400 military personnel alone, to blow the whistle on these issues, the government and NASA; and their only detractors are laymen and women. Those who aren't in the know. Why aren't the government or NASA challenging them, if they are talking nonsense? 






> The closest the world has ever been to a UFO disclosure was in 2001, when Dr Steven Greer led a group of witnesses - all with ties to government authorities such as military, the NSA and NASA - came forward at the National Press Club and spoke of UFO activity. Members of major media networks such as the BBC were present.
> 
> 
> There is also the detailed account of Aaron McCallum, an ex-black operative agent, who says that he has interacted with aliens within the US military.
> 
> Authorities Coming Forward Regarding Possible Extraterrestrial Life
> 
> 
> Despite the negative accounts of whistleblowers linking the government to aliens, there has really *been no official word on the subject to deny the accounts.* It is not until a few years ago that institutions around the world have started igniting this topic with a series of announcements.
> 
> 
> Back in 2008, Rev. Jose Gabriel Funes, an astronomer and director of the Vatican observatory, announced to the world that the possibility of alien life does not conflict with the church’s faith in God. The same topic was brought up again in 2009.
> 
> 
> In August 2010, the British government released secret files from its national archives confirming that authorities have been taking note of the UFO issue since the 1950s.
> 
> 
> In December 2010, NASA made an announcement regarding a discovery, which according to them gave a broader definition to life. They discovered a microbe strain the GFAJ-1, that can build part of itself out of arsenic.
> 
> 
> And today, February 3rd 2011, NASA has announced the discovery of more than 50 planets that have the potential for life forms. Up till now, they’ve discovered none.
> 
> 
> Can NASA and the Vatican Be in This Together?
> 
> 
> One has to ask why this sudden influx of information on the possibility of alien life by all the major institutions in such a short span of time.
> 
> 
> Is there a link between NASA, the Vatican and the governments of the world the public is not aware of? Has this information been coordinated for timely release?
> 
> 
> It may be that they all believe that the subject of UFO has become so popular that it is time for them to officially update their procedures and beliefs. Or is this all part of a more sinister plan?
> 
> 
> Read more at Suite101: NASA Keeps Adding Information to the Possibility of Alien LIfe | Suite101.com http://www.suite101.com/content/nasa-keeps-adding-information-to-the-possibility-of-alien-life-a342279#ixzz1XCeJQL2n


----------



## Cowboy

Lia said:


> Foggy, I posted this video on another forum around a year of two ago. Here's the thing. *He's not alone;* many prominent military, defense and political personnel have come forward over the last decade, over 400 military personnel alone, to blow the whistle on these issues, the government and NASA; and their only detractors are laymen and women. Those who aren't in the know. Why aren't the government or NASA challenging them, if they are talking nonsense?


 

Yup including the John Callahan the head of the FAA in Alaska. Heres one video but he has numurous others out. 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdT_5eCZaRo"]John Callahan, head of FAA, tells proof of UFOs      - YouTube[/ame]

Related article here. http://www.newsminer.com/pages/full...ater &id=15203985&instance=blogs_editors_desk

Another one is Former Arizona Governor Fife Symington. Article here. 

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/22360

There are literally thousands of high authority and highly respected individuals that have started talking recently, which a lot of them are included in the videos I posted earlier. Dont really matter though if you just refuse to at least question and ignore what is really so obvious.


----------



## Cowboy

Two more articles of cases that have been confirmed as true as well as highly documented . 

http://www.thephoenixlights.net/Documentary.htm

http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/rendleshamforest.htm


----------



## Lia

> *In the last three years, the UN, the Vatican and NASA have made announcements regarding possible alien life. Are we being groomed for disclosure?*
> 
> 
> *Since the Roswell incident in June 1947, there have been widespread rumours about not only the existence of aliens but also their involvement with the governments of the world.*
> 
> 
> Read more at Suite101: *NASA Keeps Adding Information to the Possibility of Alien LIfe | Suite101.com* *[URL="http://www.suite101.com/content/nasa-keeps-adding-information-to-the-possibility-of-alien-life-a342279#ixzz1XCr3OXdb"]http://www.suite101.com/content/nasa-keeps-adding-information-to-the-possibility-of-alien-life-a342279#ixzz1XCr3OXdb*[/URL]


 
I've been saying as much for a couple of years now. Even the media who have heretofore been noticeably reticent to report such things have been more open on the topic recently.

As for the Roswell incident, well, too much of that was classified for far too long for it to have been a weather balloon. No need to classify details of a downed weather balloon for pity's sake.


----------



## Cowboy

Lia said:


> I've been saying as much for a couple of years now. Even the media who have heretofore been noticeably reticent to report such things have been more open on the topic recently.
> 
> As for the Roswell incident, well, too much of that was classified for far too long for it to have been a weather balloon. No need to classify details of a downed weather balloon for pity's sake.


 Great link Lia with some very good related articles . This being a quote from one of them . 

*Robert Lazar aka Bob Lazar – Ex Physicist at Area 51*

Bob Lazar’s involvement with the secret projects began in 1981. He believes he had been chosen to work there, not because of his credentials but because the interviewer believed he is someone who would not cause any problems. He faced *no competition for the job*.
He describes the security as being oppressive and in many ways slowing down the work he was contracted to do. The scientists working there had to use special goggles that allows you to only see straight for a few metres. Workers were paired, assigned to a specific compartment and not allowed to speak to anyone than their partner.
The project he was involved in was called Project Galileo. His job was to reverse engineer a flying saucer believed to have originated from the Zeta Reticulli star system. The technology used by the disc was based on the distortion of electromagnetic field. The craft produces a gravity wave that essentially works against the gravity field of Earth. During his time at the base, Bob Lazar says he has seen nine other types of crafts but cannot confirm whether they are all of alien origin.
Attempts on his life and that of his wife had been made since he went public but seems to have ceased.

http://www.suite101.com/content/5-most-important-whistleblowers-in-black-projects-a335354

​


----------



## Lia

I posted this in one of Cowboys other threads earlier in the year, but in case anyone who is interested missed it, I'll copy and paste it here. From Lt. Colonel Philip J. Corso's book on his military dealings in the Roswell UFO Crash.

*CHAPTER 15*

*My Last Year in R&D: The Hoover Files, Fiber Optics, Supertenacity, and Other Artifacts *

I BARELY PICKED MY HEAD UP FROM THE PILES OF TECHNICAL proposals on my desk during the winter months of 1961. The work didn’t even stop for the Christmas holiday, when most of Washington likes to take a break and head for the West Virginia mountains or the Maryland countryside. I was traveling a lot during the final months of 1961, seeing weapons undergo testing at proving grounds around the country, meeting with university researchers on such diverse items as the preservation of food or the conversion of spent atomic pile material into weapons, and developing intelligence reports for General Trudeau on the kinds of technologies that might shape weapons development into the next decade. 

*With my other eye, I was keeping a look out for any reports going to the Air Intelligence Command about UFO sightings that I thought Army Intelligence should be thinking about. The AIC was the next step in classification from the Project Blue Book people. Its job, besides the obvious task of moving any urgent UFO reports up the ladder of secrecy to the next levels where they would disappear behind the veil of camouflage, was to classify the type of event or incident the sighting seemed to indicate. *​ 

*Usually that meant separating real aircraft sightings that needed to be investigated for pure military intelligence purposes from either true UFO sightings that needed to be processed by whatever elements of the original working group were on watch or false sightings that needed to be sent back down to Blue Book to be debunked. The AIC loved it when it had actual false sightings it could send back: an obvious meteorite that they could confirm, some visual anomaly having to do with an alignment of planets, or, best of all, a couple of clowns somewhere that decided to pull a Halloween prank and scare the locals. *​ 

*There were guys running around wheat fields with snowshoes or submitting photos of flying frozen pie tins to the local papers. Then the folks at Blue Book could release the story to the press, and everybody patted themselves on the back for the job they were all doing. Life could be fun in the early 1960s, especially if you didn’t know the truth. *​ 
*Moving into 1962, Army Intelligence was lit up with rumors about potential threats coming in from all over the place. The anti-Castro Cubans were mad about the President’s refusal to support the Bay of Pigs invasion and were looking for revenge; Castro was mad about the Bay of Pigs invasion and was looking to get back at us; Khrushchev was still furious about the U2 and the Bay of Pigs and thinking Kennedy was a pushover, would soon jump on an opportunity to force us into some humiliating compromise. *​ 

*The Russians were on the verge of sending manned spacecraft into extended orbital flights and robot probes out to explore Venus. We were way behind in the space race and none of the services had the budget or the ability to get us back into the fight. NASA was telling the President they would have to dig in, develop the technology base, and, by the middle of the decade, put on a show for the whole world. But now, as the year turned, it was all silent running until we could put something up we could brag about. *​ 
*The army was making ominous noises about events in Southeast Asia. The more the army pushed to get troops on the ground, the more the Kennedy administration refused to get involved. The army was telling the President we would eventually be sucked into a war we could not win and the events would control us instead of our controlling them. Later that same year, I would be offered the job of director of intelligence for the Army Special Forces units already operating in the Southeast Asian theater. *​ 


*At about the same time the army said it was going to name Gen. Arthur Trudeau as the commander of all U.S. forces in South Vietnam. As our names were being circulated, General Trudeau confided to me that he doubted we would get the jobs. And if we did, he said, it would be a toss-up as to who would be the most unhappy, the Vietcong or the U.S. Army. *


*“If they send us over there, Phil, “ he said after one of our morning briefings, “one of two things will happen. Either we’ll both get court martialed or we’ll win the damn war. Either way the army’s not going to like the way we do business. “ *

*Read on: *
*http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/dayafterroswell/dayafter15.htm*​





​​​*Lt. Colonel Philip J. Corso:*​http://paradigmresearchgroup.org/Awards/Corso_Philip.htm


----------



## fogtender

> Foggy, I posted this video on another forum around a year of two ago. Here's the thing. He's not alone; many prominent military, defense and political personnel have come forward over the last decade, over 400 military personnel alone, to blow the whistle on these issues, the government and NASA; and their only detractors are laymen and women. Those who aren't in the know. Why aren't the government or NASA challenging them, if they are talking nonsense?



I don't doubt his beliefs at all, I just wish they would put more in the video with who he was, where the meeting was, who was there etc.  I find him interesting to hear.


----------



## Cowboy

This is the best video I have found that has been studyed by many experts and proved to be genuine. It not only shows the UFO but the occupants inside. The first vid is the one that has been examined by experts with comments. Decide for yourselves . 

Turkey UFO Clearly Shows Aliens - Dr Roger Leir 
  [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUEjeYn5Obg&feature=player_embedded"]Turkey UFO Clearly Shows Aliens - Dr Roger Leir      - YouTube[/ame]
Ufo Video From Turkey Shows Alien Occupants
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89KkYMS8jkk"]Ufo Video From Turkey Shows Alien Occupants, Part 1.      - YouTube[/ame]
Computer Analysis and Enhancement of Turkey's 2008 UFO Video 
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGoSHfI3d5o&feature=related"]Computer Analysis and Enhancement of Turkey's 2008 UFO Video      - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Doc

Lia said:


> I posted this in one of Cowboys other threads earlier in the year, but in case anyone who is interested missed it, I'll copy and paste it here. From Lt. Colonel Philip J. Corso's book on his military dealings in the Roswell UFO Crash.



Interesting post Lia.  I missed in when you posted it somewhere else on here.  Lots to read but very very interesting.  I'm still not all the way done with it but I'll get there.


----------



## Cowboy

Other very prominent people that have come forward about their experiences with UFO's. I guess there is only a few of us that care to discuss this though. 


Astronaut Gordon Cooper Talks About UFOs

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvPR8T1o3Dc&NR=1"]Astronaut Gordon Cooper Talks About UFOs - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3zotvpZLnY&feature=related"]real UFO sighting during CNN broadcast - YouTube[/ame]

aliens exist says buzz aldrin 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpfvhdmhQy4&feature=related"]aliens exist says buzz aldrin - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKdvBidbwnQ&feature=related"]Mexican Government Admits Aliens are Real - YouTube[/ame]

US Government ADMITS UFOs - Alien contact disclosed in Press Conference 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeLtVp2FOqQ&feature=related"]US Government ADMITS UFOs - Alien contact disclosed in Press Conference - YouTube[/ame]

CNN Report UFO Truth Revealed By CIA,FBI & US Government

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0v0DhNcDn4&feature=related"]CNN Report UFO Truth Revealed By CIA,FBI & US Government UNBELIVEABLE!!! - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Cowboy

Interesting short video about what was found on the moon . The truth is going to come out and very soon IMO .  

It may very well be Obama's last ditch effort to get another 4 year term though . 

My Favourite clip from the UFO Disclosure Project 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6QNzH4x1rY&feature=related"]My Favourite clip from the UFO Disclosure Project - YouTube[/ame]

Video with actual pics of the bases . 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6VYCkcfGco&feature=related"]UFO: The Greatest Story Ever Denied - Moon Bases      - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Lia

Doc said:


> Interesting post Lia. I missed in when you posted it somewhere else on here. Lots to read but very very interesting. I'm still not all the way done with it but I'll get there.


 

Thanks Doc, for the interest and input... I've had a really busy week, so didn't see this post, but when I get the time I will sort thro my archives to post more from Corso (who sadly, is now deceased). 



Cowboy said:


> Other very prominent people that have come forward about their experiences with UFO's. I guess there is only a few of us that care to discuss this though.


 
Bob, you are indefatigable in your pursuit of the truth. Amazing stuff you are finding here. As you know, I've had a hell of a week in a personal way, and so I haven't had time to catch up with all that you've posted recently.

I have seen the Turkish video above before, but never seen the enhance follow-ups. They're intriguing... I'm just a bit concerned (altho I expect it can be explained, since what I know about technology could be put in a small matchbox and thrown into the ocean, for all its worth); but the first Turkish video seems to have been compiled of shots taken over a period of two or three years?

Are the shots of different sightings and different craft then? Again I don't have the time to view it properly today either, and I haven't seen your other video's yet, posted yesterday, the 8th. I'm looking forward to that, maybe this afternoon if I can find a couple of hours to really listen to the rest of the following video's you've posted.

I think I've probably heard all that Aldrin has to say on the subject, but not Cooper. 

As for your comment above regarding the few that are posting here; my thoughts on that are that the topic is getting the views, and if folk aren't commenting at least they are reading, and digesting a topic that may be new, a bit scary, or perhaps not credible to them. People need time to adjust, and examine their previously held views and opinions. So, perhaps they feel more comfortable just reading about it all, and assessing the material for themselves, in their own time, and at their own pace.

I think its wonderful that they are viewing tho. And that, imho, is mainly thanks to you and your inexhaustible efforts to enlighten us all on the subject. I always thought that there wasn't much else that needed to be known on the topic, but your [posts have dispelled that rather grandiose notion. lol

Rock on hon...


----------



## Cowboy

Thankyou Lia, I'm glad to help to at least get what information I find out for people to view and make their own decisions.

I wanted to post a few other video's but ran accross this and I think its much more important at this time. Here is a little intro to whats in it below the video. This is a very recent video and the people giving the speaches their credibility should speak for theirselves. I hope everyone takes the time to watch it. 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDRkJn2NkE4&feature=channel_video_title"]Out of the Blue - Military Disclosure Has Begun - National Press Club LIVE, Washington D.C[/ame] 
| Jul 27, 2011 | 


Join us for a truly historic event. At the National Press Club in Washington D.C., an unprecedented gathering of top military and government officials from around the world met LIVE before members of the Press to present to the public alarming facts about UFOs and an extraterrestrial presence now engaging the planet Earth. This presentation provides LIVE coverage of that historic press conference. In attendance for this shocking, Earth shattering event includes former Governor of Arizona - Fife Symington; Belgian Airforce Major General, Ret. - Wilfried De Brouwer; Engineer, Astronomer and Astrophysicist - Dr. Claude Poher; Captain, Air France, Ret. - Jean-Charles Duboc; French Astrophysicist - Dr. Jean-Claude Ribes; General, Iranian Airforce, Ret. - Parviz Jafari; Captain, Army of Chile - Rodrigo Bravo Garrido; Commander, Peruvian Airforce, Ret. Oscar Santa Maria Huertas; Founding Member of the Peruvian Airforce Office of Investigation of Anomalous Ariel Phenomena (OIFAA) - Dr. Anthony Choy; Captain, Aurigny Airlines, UK - Ray Bowyer; Officer, British Ministry of Defense, Ret. - Nick Pope; Sgt. United States Airforce, Ret. - James Penniston; Col. United States Airforce, Ret. - Charles Halt; and Division Chief of the Accident Evaluations and Investigations Division of the FAA, Washington D.C., Ret. - John Callahan. 

This event was produced by Filmmaker James Fox. His award winning feature film "Out of the Blue" - is coming to DVD in a new special anniversary edition on 8/30/2011 from UFOTV. It's loaded with bonus features and interviews including this press conference.

http://www.youtube.com/user/UFOTVstudios#p/u/27/uDRkJn2NkE4


----------



## fogtender

Lia,

This has been am very interesting thread to say the least, thanks and to all the others that have been posting as well!

Keep the stuff coming!


----------



## Cowboy

Another very good video of evidence taken by the space shuttle and being discussed . If you dont have the patience to watch the whole thing skip to the 4 minute mark and at least watch the last part . Thanks to all that are interested. 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn-a1mvTM_w&feature=related"]The BEST UFO Footage - NASA Captures UFOs on Camera - UFOs are REAL - Government is Lying - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Lia

Here, in the link below, for those interested, is ‘the lost interview’ with Lt. Col. Philip J. Corso. 

http://www.youtube.com/user/UFOTVstudios#p/u/1/DpffcjnXMx0

However, Corso has had his detractors. Especially those who cast doubts on his ‘positions held in the field of intelligence’ during his military career. Here is an expose, not of his critics so much as the debunkers; two different breeds of researcher, if one could call a debunker a researcher. 

In the link below… 

*‘Colonel Philip Corso and his Critics: Crossing the Rubicon between Objective Criticism and Debunking,’* 

Is a fascinating examination of the facts of his career, and a telling indictment of those who wish, need, or desire to discredit him, and others like him, military whistle-blowers. I hope that those who hope to get to the truth of the matter, concerning this controversial but essentially crucial topic under discussion, will find it interesting.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/exopolitica/esp_exopolitics_ZZO.htm

Included at the end of the above link, are many more links related to the topic under discussion.

Enjoy.


----------



## Cowboy

Great video Lia , I hadn't gotten around to watching that untill now . 

  Since you meantioned the term " Debunkers" I though I would post this video of Stanton Friedman where He  "Debunks the Debunkers" it quite humerous IMO but it does get to the point. 

Revised and Updated! At the center of the ET and UFO truth embargo is a core of propaganda promulgated over 50 years in the guise of scientific skepticism. This false "skepticism" came to be known as "debunking." Having given more than 700 lectures about flying saucers in 15 countries; published more than 80 papers, 2 books, and visited 20 document archives; Stanton Friedman has heard all the objections the human mind can conjure in opposition to the extraterrestrial hypothesis. In the workshop, all objections will be discussed such as the notions that interstellar travel is impossible, there is no good evidence for flying saucer reality, secrets can't be kept, aliens engaging the earth would land on the White House lawn, SETI (Silly Effort to Investigate) is sensible science, the Drake Equation predicts extraterrestrial contact is unlikely and other false arguments. For those who want to test their skeptical mettle against this research legend, here is your chance.

The X-Conference is pleased to welcome Nuclear Physisist and UFO Researcher Stanton T. Friedman.

http://www.youtube.com/user/UFOTVstudios#p/u/22/crg67I276iU


----------



## Lia

Many of you will want to mute your volume control or at the very least lower it to acceptable levels with this link. Don’t say I didn’t warn y’all.  lol.  

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=567OW2yt8ak&feature=player_embedded"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=567OW2yt8ak&feature=player_embedded[/ame]

One has to assess and make up their own minds as to the authenticity of many of the videos and leaked images from NASA. The only thing that I would say is that one needs to keep an open mind on the controversy, because not all conspiracies were hoaxes, not by a long way. I’m on the fence on this next video, but its not, by any means, the only one out there showing these anomalies.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=i4jARNJEh60

This next video, supposedly filmed by Armstrong in ’69 is rather sinister, imho. If true, it must be the most outstanding revelation in the last century. However, I am concerned about one or two areas of the video that make a sort of ‘popping sound’ rather as if someone has knocked, or dropped something, and the sounds sort of echo, as if in an empty room. I don’t know enuff about this type of technology to be able to make an intelligent assessment of the video content or the unusual sounds. I’d be interested to hear others views on it tho. I don’t, by any means, rule out its authenticity, but I do have a couple of serious reservations.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWkGTJEK0Mc&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWkGTJEK0Mc&feature=related[/ame]


----------



## Lia

fogtender said:


> Lia,
> 
> This has been am very interesting thread to say the least, thanks and to all the others that have been posting as well!
> 
> Keep the stuff coming!



Thanks Foggy, and I will keep on posting links.


----------



## Lia

*The Nellis UFO Study and Footage:*

In February 1995 the American TV show 'Hard Copy' broadcast a videotape showing an unidentified object flying over a North American military test range. Further footage was shown the following December on the 'Sightings' TV show.ref 1 The videotape had apparently been filmed by a high-tech Air Force surveillance camera at an undisclosed location within the Nellis Air Force Base Bombing and Gunnery Range Complex, Nevada (often referred to simply as the Nellis Test Range).

The videotape is said to have been smuggled out by contractor personnel who had operated tracking stations on the Nellis range. Copies of the videotape were sold to Paramount Studios (producers of 'Hard Copy' and 'Sightings') by a former Air Force employee who worked on the range, although apparently he had not witnessed the object himself.2

Two sections of videotape showing the UFO have come to light. The first section was filmed from a location known as S-30, according to the camera's data display. This shows the object initially as an indistinct 'blob' flying in front of a distant mountain range, before it turns and heads towards the camera location. The camera operator struggles to keep the object within shot as it approaches, and it soon becomes clear that it cannot be identified. It looks similar to a blimp, but with four light-coloured 'lobes' and a dark region at the front (Figure 1). As it nears, it turns to face the tracking station for several seconds, as if performing some kind of surveillance, before it turns away and departs. The footage is of special importance because the voices of the camera operators at the tracking station can be heard on the noisy soundtrack. Their bewilderment at the unexpected appearance of the UFO is clearly audible. "What the hell is it?" one of them exclaims; "Where's it come from?" asks another.

Read on:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mjpowell/Nellis/Part1/Part1.htm


----------



## Lia

*Artificial structures on Mars.*



This next link is an amazing site, and has numerous photo’s of various anomalies on Mars.

http://www.metaresearch.org/solar%20system/cydonia/asom/artifact_html/default.htm


----------



## fogtender

Lia said:


> *Artificial structures on Mars.*
> 
> 
> 
> This next link is an amazing site, and has numerous photo’s of various anomalies on Mars.
> 
> http://www.metaresearch.org/solar%20system/cydonia/asom/artifact_html/default.htm



Gosh, that looks like the tracks my Imp makes across the snow!  Guess if they have them up there, the Martians should fit right in here on FF's!  Unless they have those Krusty Kritter thingy's, then they may be a little hostile having to walk a lot!

OK back to the serious stuff!


----------



## fogtender

Cowboy said:


> Here is another great recent documentary that is full of evidence and testimony. It just seems like most just dont really care enough to watch to make up their own minds.
> 
> Secret Access: UFOs On The Record (History Channel FULL)      - YouTube



Don't seem to be able to get that one to play the video.


----------



## fogtender

Lia said:


> Foggy, I posted this video on another forum around a year of two ago. Here's the thing. *He's not alone;* many prominent military, defense and political personnel have come forward over the last decade, over 400 military personnel alone, to blow the whistle on these issues, the government and NASA; and their only detractors are laymen and women. Those who aren't in the know. Why aren't the government or NASA challenging them, if they are talking nonsense?



Problem the Military people have like pilots and such is that if they say they saw something that clearly wasn't of this earth, they are either ordered not to talk about it or deemed too "unstable" and taken off flight status until they decide that they really didn't see anything at all.  So it is much easier to see nothing and continue doing what you like to do.

A friend of mine use to fly U2's during the Cold War and said he saw "Oddities" up where no other aircraft could fly at the time, but the quickest way to be "Ground bound", was to say something about it.


----------



## Cowboy

fogtender said:


> Don't seem to be able to get that one to play the video.


Not sure why not, it still works for me , I can try to find a different link for it if it isn't working for anyone else .  But its damn sure worth watching .


----------



## fogtender

Being the devils advocate on the videos showing blurred out "Structures" on the moon done by NASA, I would say they do look like outlines of building of some kind, but what I see wrong with the photos is there is no tracks on the surface of the moon.  Seems it would be hard to build bases and not leave some kind of tracks unless they flew off the surface verses drove over it.

I can't copy and paste using my iPhone, but if someone can google Apollo moon tracks, the photos were released a few days ago, they show where the rover and Astronauts walked around the Lunar Lander, pretty neat for being 40 plus years ago, sharp as if they were made today.  

Anyway, I have no doubt that something is out there, but seems they would leave tracks if they left buildings as well unless the buildings were just set there!  Interesting just the same, but being a tracker of sorts my whole life, those are things I look for.


----------



## Cowboy

fogtender said:


> Being the devils advocate on the videos showing blurred out "Structures" on the moon done by NASA, I would say they do look like outlines of building of some kind, but what I see wrong with the photos is there is no tracks on the surface of the moon. Seems it would be hard to build bases and not leave some kind of tracks unless they flew off the surface verses drove over it.
> 
> I can't copy and paste using my iPhone, but if someone can google Apollo moon tracks, the photos were released a few days ago, they show where the rover and Astronauts walked around the Lunar Lander, pretty neat for being 40 plus years ago, sharp as if they were made today.
> 
> Anyway, I have no doubt that something is out there, but seems they would leave tracks if they left buildings as well! Interesting just the same!


 Yep I seen the video of the old tracks that were left on the moon as well as all of the trash we left while we were there . 

  Nasa has absolutlly no credibility to me anymore as far as what they release to the press , far to many people that worked for them have said they they know what they have seem when they went there .

   But if folks want to beleive Nasa that is controlled by the same government thats been hiding crap for decades then I dont know what to tell You . If everyone would take the time to just watch the videos posted in this thread you can decide for yourselves . Theres a few of us that take the time to sort out as much BS as we can so others wont have to, it dont make it all true or fact , but the ones thatare allways so ready to debunk things have no proof whatsoever. But most like to have smoke blowed up your butts because it just seems much safer that way .

  I doubt many know that Nasa has just sent another rocket up to do another experiment on the moon, but they did . All you have to do is go to Nasa's site because in most cases that aint even news anymore .


----------



## fogtender

Cowboy said:


> Yep I seen the video of the old tracks that were left on the moon as well as all of the trash we left while we were there .




I think that somewhere Between the sixties and seventies NASA went from "can do" to "maybe".

They went from people that wanted to go out and see the Universe to people that were more concerned about their 401k.

Then it went into the CYA mode to what amounts to current nothing, with our President shutting it down to take the money's to use on social programs. Long spiral downhill to where we are now, on our way full speed ahead to third world status.

If there was an ET Status on NASA's documents, I think they don't/didn't want to let anyone know they and the military were totally inept at dealing with it, so don't talk about it, was pretty much their call.


----------



## Danang Sailor

Lia said:


> *Artificial structures on Mars.*
> 
> This next link is an amazing site, and has numerous photo’s of various anomalies on Mars.
> *
> http://www.metaresearch.org/solar%20system/cydonia/asom/artifact_html/default.htm*



Lia,

Sites such as the one above can make skeptics out of believers!  You MUST accept that "The Face on Mars" is artificial in order
to buy into anything else, as absolutely ALL of the following "data" (triangles, etc.) are based on the presumption
that, since "The Face" is artificial, so must these be.  And that is faulty reasoning, as there is a great deal of doubt as to
whether or not "The Face" is anything more than a natural anomaly.  Nature gives us startling things constantly!

For example, go to Google Maps, satellite view, and enter the following coordinates:   50° 0'38.20"N 110° 6'48.32"W
(you may need to move the map to the right a smidgeon)

Note the astounding detail:  a chin, lips, a nose (with nostrils!), eyes, eyebrows ... even a fancy headdress!  How could
all this have happened without intelligent beings doing it?  Surely this must be Significant!!  Does this not prove
that ancient natives carved this as a sign to space-farers, or that aliens left it as a sign they had been here?  It MUST, as
they even put an IPod earphone in his/her ear!!  Doesn't this prove that aliens were here?  Doesn't this demolish all
the skeptics?  Do pigs fly??

Please understand that I am firmly on the side of those who know that Project Blue Book was actually a cover-up
operation, and that, for whatever reason, this little planet has been frequently visited by folks from somewhere else.
But quoting sites such as 'metaresearch' is going to tarnish your own reputation, as it is clearly non-objective and
based on circular logic*.  There are a lot of legitimate, thoughtful sites out there ... try to research a bit more
to be sure you're not encouraging people to go to a site that will damage our case.



*Essentially, a formal logical fallacy which assumes its own central point is already proven, and then uses this assumption to
support itself.  A classic example:
"Only a thief would become an auto mechanic.  The fact that there are dishonest mechanics proves this."


----------



## Lia

Danang Sailor said:


> Sites such as the one above can make skeptics out of believers! You MUST accept that "The Face on Mars" is artificial in order
> to buy into anything else, as absolutely ALL of the following "data" (triangles, etc.) are based on the presumption
> that, since "The Face" is artificial, so must these be. And that is faulty reasoning, as there is a great deal of doubt as to
> whether or not "The Face" is anything more than a natural anomaly. Nature gives us startling things constantly!




I agree, and that is why I chose ‘the tracks’ picture from that site and not the ‘face’ which as you say is a controversial subject, and which is much disputed. There is doubt regarding the ‘face’ but as you implied, the jury is still out on it. Personally I believe that it (the face) is merely a natural formation, but then I don’t know nearly enuff about geology to hazard a guess even. 

As you said, and I agree there also, that, assuming all else at the site is suspect, because the research hasn’t established yet whether it’s a natural formation or not, is indeed faulty reasoning. It isn’t my aim to convert folk here, but merely to get them thinking ‘outside of the box’ so to speak; to show that the conventional route taken by history isn’t always the correct route, and which has often been proven to be so.



> For example, go to Google Maps, satellite view, and enter the following coordinates: 50° 0'38.20"N 110° 6'48.32"W
> (you may need to move the map to the right a smidgeon)





> Note the astounding detail: a chin, lips, a nose (with nostrils!), eyes, eyebrows ... even a fancy headdress! How could
> all this have happened without intelligent beings doing it? Surely this must be Significant!! Does this not prove
> that ancient natives carved this as a sign to space-farers, or that aliens left it as a sign they had been here? It MUST, as
> they even put an IPod earphone in his/her ear!! Doesn't this prove that aliens were here? Doesn't this demolish all
> the skeptics? Do pigs fly??




Well, I hate to belabour the point, but I’ll try again; I didn’t post a picture, anywhere in this thread, of the alleged Martian face, because as you say, it’s more likely to be a natural formation. Your co-ordinates took me somewhere south east of Calgary, but I saw nothing there that could be construed as a face. Had I seen it, and believed it to be constructed by design I wouldhave  considered it to be worthy of posting here. However, this below (from the same site) is worthy of posting and a topic for debate.






> Please understand that I am firmly on the side of those who know that Project Blue Book was actually a cover-up
> operation, and that, for whatever reason, this little planet has been frequently visited by folks from somewhere else.


Glad to know that, DS, and don’t worry, I don’t take it as a personal attack, why would I, since we both  subscribe to the fundamental belief that we are not alone in this universe.




> But quoting sites such as 'metaresearch' is going to tarnish your own reputation, as it is clearly non-objective and
> based on circular logic*. There are a lot of legitimate, thoughtful sites out there ... try to research a bit more
> to be sure you're not encouraging people to go to a site that will damage our case.


 
DS, had I not started the thread I doubt very much that folk here would have given the topic a second thought. I have brought much to the site that is worthy of provoking thought, as has Cowboy; and all sites, however biased, have some parts that are worthy of attention, on this topic. My ‘reputation’ whatever it is here, is not of first consideration to me; alerting folk to the fact that we are not alone here is extremely important, imho; because I firmly believe that ‘disclosure’ is imminent..

But for mine and Cowboys input here, on this topic, there would be no case to damage!

Its all very well to go behind the scenes to assure me that your post was not an attack on me personally; but your reasoning for it, and comments such as ‘Pigs might fly’ says otherwise. If you are so on board with us, then instead of attacking me why haven’t you provided anything heretofore, of substance on the topic?

The same site has this picture below: Perhaps it could be explained by geologists, perhaps not, perhaps whatever explanation would be mere speculation, but then that’s what we’re here for, to discuss and debate it, without trying to cast aspersions on one who at least had the nerve to broach the subject on a very conservative site. 


Just so folk understand, I have bolded type that *Suggests *rather than *claims* to be something that is unproven. You might want to note that the bolded type has only been highlighted, but all came from commentary on this site which is apparently, so er… biased.




> Crenulations are underground tubes: Ground fissures *seem* to expose a network of glassy or translucent underground tubes. The bright spot *might* be a specular reflection of the Sun*, consistent* with a glassy or plastic skin. The magnified view shows that the white lines are bands that *appear *to wrap completely around the tubes. Source: M0400291.gif.


----------



## Lia

Some more 'suggested anomalies' from the site, with quotes:

Slide one:



> *Possible vegetation: *The thickness of the dark structures increases at lower altitudes, just as it does on Earth. The edges have a fractal character, *almost* a signature of vegetation on Earth. On the right, a radial quality, *much like* terrestrial life with a stem or trunk, *may* be discerned. Sources: M1001442.gif & M0804688.gif.


 
Slide two:



> *Possible trees*. Here we see enough detail to detect what *appear *to be branches and limb structure unfolding from a center, as for large plants with a trunk. This *resembles* no known type of geological feature on Earth or any other planet or moon yet explored. Source: M0804688.gif.


----------



## Cowboy

Danang Sailor said:


> Lia,
> 
> Sites such as the one above can make skeptics out of believers! You MUST accept that "The Face on Mars" is artificial in order
> to buy into anything else, as absolutely ALL of the following "data" (triangles, etc.) are based on the presumption
> that, since "The Face" is artificial, so must these be. And that is faulty reasoning, as there is a great deal of doubt as to
> whether or not "The Face" is anything more than a natural anomaly. Nature gives us startling things constantly!
> 
> For example, go to Google Maps, satellite view, and enter the following coordinates: 50° 0'38.20"N 110° 6'48.32"W
> (you may need to move the map to the right a smidgeon)
> 
> Note the astounding detail: a chin, lips, a nose (with nostrils!), eyes, eyebrows ... even a fancy headdress! How could
> all this have happened without intelligent beings doing it? Surely this must be Significant!! Does this not prove
> that ancient natives carved this as a sign to space-farers, or that aliens left it as a sign they had been here? It MUST, as
> they even put an IPod earphone in his/her ear!! Doesn't this prove that aliens were here? Doesn't this demolish all
> the skeptics? Do pigs fly??
> 
> Please understand that I am firmly on the side of those who know that Project Blue Book was actually a cover-up
> operation, and that, for whatever reason, this little planet has been frequently visited by folks from somewhere else.
> But quoting sites such as 'metaresearch' is going to tarnish your own reputation, as it is clearly non-objective and
> based on circular logic*. There are a lot of legitimate, thoughtful sites out there ... try to research a bit more
> to be sure you're not encouraging people to go to a site that will damage our case.
> 
> 
> 
> *Essentially, a formal logical fallacy which assumes its own central point is already proven, and then uses this assumption to
> support itself. A classic example:
> "Only a thief would become an auto mechanic. The fact that there are dishonest mechanics proves this."


DS, I am confused as to why you would choose to comment on something that hasn't even been mentioned in this thread as far as evidence much less proof. 

There are many sites that are questionable as far as doctered so called proof and ussually the comments made by some are what makes a site questionable IMHO . But I am glad they are out there to make people aware of things that may very well exsist , its just up to each individual to decide for theirselves AFTER taking the time to do some of your own research . Thats why I cant stand skeptics because they have it set in their minds such things dont or cant exsist but have absolutly have no proof or evidence that they dont. 

That said , I use several different sites to do my research on things that interest me, and when I find something specific I do more research . When I think I have enough then I post it merely as an interesting topic , not saying anything is fact. Much like your opinion of "do pigs fly" , do you have any proof or evidence they dont? 

My main point is that there are things known to Nasa and the government that they have gone to far out of their way to keep from the public for reasons unknown . Some of the experts in different software programs that can see through blurred images and give interesting opinions after doing their research, and I for one like to at least look at them and come to my own desicion while keeping an open mind . 

Just because some so called experts are so quick to debunk something doesn't mean they are anymore credible then anyone else , they just have their own agenda and reasoning for doing so IMHO. 

There are literally hundreds of what appear to be face like images, not only on Mars but the moon as well . I use the sites that do their studys mainly to get the coordinates so I can view for myself through google earth or other satelite imagery sites that are available on the net. 

Also you mentioned the other face structure in Canada that you pointed out " they even put an IPOD in his/hers ear" either you were just being sarcastic which I would like to think , OR you are not really aware of the layout on the land around that area. 

At any rate here is another interesting anomoly found on mars . I will post it because I find it anything but a natural formation but that dont make it a fact. Once again people have to decide for theirselves . 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?src_vi...gY&annotation_id=annotation_472124&feature=iv

http://www.msss.com/msss_images/2008/02/14/

Link for attached photo. All original photo credits belongs to NASA . http://marsanomalies.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=anomalies&action=display&thread=163


----------



## fogtender

I think that this thread is outstanding in the information that people have supplied, some is older and most is new that I've never seen before and find it very informative!  

The people that are coming forward in the media nowadays verses 30 years ago is astounding!  These aren't some mom and pop guys claiming they were "Probed" to gain TV Fame, they are people that are credible and are putting their careers on the line!

I would say we are in fact seeing "Pigs Fly"!

Lia has done a very nice job of putting forth this thread as well as others that are contributing.  

Thank you guys!


----------



## BigAl RIP

fogtender said:


> I think that this thread is outstanding in the information that people have supplied, some is older and most is new that I've never seen before and find it very informative!
> 
> The people that are coming forward in the media nowadays verses 30 years ago is astounding! These aren't some mom and pop guys claiming they were "Probed" to gain TV Fame, they are people that are credible and are putting their careers on the line!
> 
> I would say we are in fact seeing "Pigs Fly"!
> 
> Lia has done a very nice job of putting forth this thread as well as others that are contributing.
> 
> Thank you guys!


 
Thats all fine and dandy but if I get nightmares tonight from all this stuff , someone is going to hold me till I go back to sleep !!


----------



## Snowtrac Nome

i think the krusty was alien inspired to why else would it not look like other snow cat's


----------



## Lia

BigAl said:


> Thats all fine and dandy but if I get nightmares tonight from all this stuff , someone is going to hold me till I go back to sleep !!


 
lol. But, you'll be fine. I'd put money on you, of all folk, being able to handle anything that life throws at you.


----------



## muleman RIP

I have some scars that look a lot like that one picture with the tubes.Maybe it is a dead giant?


----------



## Lia

I was going to write something on the article in the link, but my computer is playing up again and I can't get to the info I wanted in order to talk about it... I'll do so in a later post. 

*Exclusive: NASA Scientist Claims Evidence of Alien Life on Meteorite*



> We are not alone in the universe -- and alien life forms may have a lot more in common with life on Earth than we had previously thought.
> 
> That's the stunning conclusion one NASA scientist has come to, releasing his groundbreaking revelations in a new study in the March edition of the Journal of Cosmology
> 
> Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/03/05/exclusive-nasa-scientists-claims-evidence-alien-life-meteorite/#ixzz1XmKci1ne
> [/quote]


----------



## fogtender

By chance there was a show on the Military Channel about the NAZI's interest in UFO's and what lengths they were going to trying to duplicate some of their technology.  Seems they spent a lot of time and effort for something that nobody believed in at the time.

If I can find a link to the video, I will post it.  Was very interesting how they came up with it.


----------



## fogtender

This isn't the video I was looking for on the NAZI UFO program, but it is on the same subject that the video I was looking for didn't cover!


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoMR_Oj6Qrs&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]The Aldebaran Mystery - Nazi UFO Secrets      - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Lia

Interesting video Foggy. Of course the 2nd world war was not the only war in history to feature sightings or mentions of UFO's. They go back thousands of years...    

*Scientists find fifty new planets… and one of them could have alien life:*

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...-50-new-planets-alien-life.html#ixzz1XqHTBfms



> European astronomers have discovered 50 new planets beyond our solar system, including 16 which are a similar size to Earth.
> 
> This is the largest number of such planets ever announced at one time.
> 
> The biggest planet of the new batch is HD 85512 b, which is 3.6 times the mass of Earth and can be found 36 light-years away in the Vela constellation.
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...-50-new-planets-alien-life.html#ixzz1XqH6oNBB


----------



## Lia

fogtender said:


> This isn't the video I was looking for on the NAZI UFO program, but it is on the same subject that the video I was looking for didn't cover!
> 
> 
> The Aldebaran Mystery - Nazi UFO Secrets - YouTube


 
Yes, I'm quite sure, that with reverse engineering, other nations, especially the USA have constructed some of the 'UFO's' that are reported since the 2nd world war. I don't think for one second that Germany had the monopoly on their construction.

I don't, for one second believe that Lyttons works were derived from anything more than literary fiction, based on the 'Vril.' And, imho, one should take with a pinch of salt the utterings of such as Maria Orsic who, like Billy Meier, may cause serious researchers of this phenomenon to be ridiculed and proclaimed to be allowing their imaginations to run away with them. Guilty by association, with those who have no other proof to their claims of other interplanetary races, than that of 'divine intelligence' thro channelling.

My hair is long; I don't, for one second, put my UFO sightings down to the length of my hair, or any such like nonsense. Unfortunately, with any kind of research into such phenomena the crazies come out of the woodwork, in force, and its hard to be objective. But one has to at least understand this, and try to sift the 'evidence' in a sytematic and logical manner.


----------



## Cowboy

Interesting video and article Foggy and Lia . I have been busy with among other things doing some more research on the video I had posted earlier and I am reposting it again along with a link that has a lot of information, research, vids and other links related to it . Its by far the best group of evidence I have found yet allthough some of it is repeats that have been posted before , well worth the look though as it still to this day appears to be genuine footage . 

There have been many skeptics that have tried to debunk it with crap I cant even beleive they throw out there. Ones explanation is it is the top deck of a cruise ship and he has spent many years trying to prove it. Talk about a crazie.  

At any rate here it is if anyone is interested , some of the links might be dead but theres still plenty of newer research, several videos at the link at the very bottom of this post. . 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uum5NNQJ2zY&feature=player_embedded"]UFO Istanbul / Kumburgaz Turkey - YouTube[/ame]

*Saturday, April 16, 2011*







​ 


This case developed in the location of Kumburgaz, Turkey between the years 2007, 2008 and 2009 and is still ongoing. The video was taken by a security guard at the Yeni Kent Compound which is located along the beach. One singularity of this case was that the images were made with a camera that had an adaptor for close ups of 200X optical, achieving a great amount of detail of the objects. During this period several minutes of close range video were taken of metallic ufos floating or changing while in flight over the sea coast of Marmara.

Many special effects and imaging experts have tried to debunk the footage including: Prof. José Atenas, an expert in graphics and video, with more than 30 years of experience on television, Prof. phD. Zeki EKERDirector National Council For The Study Of Science And Technology and National Observatory, and Mario Valdesfrom Santiago Chile. Other analysis were done by video specialists, image edition and special effect companies from Japan, Russia and Turkey, all ending up with the same conclusions. Each expert that studied the raw footage did not detect any evidence pointing in the direction of a balloon, prop, model, or special effects.

*Short Video Explanation - 15 Minutes *​ 







​ 







​ 







*Sirius UFO Space Science Research Center* ​ 

At first, the videos were analyzed and made public by the, directed by the researcher Haktan Akdogan. Sirius UFO Space Science Research Center firstly, spoke with all the witnesses separately then did the detailed analysis of the videos. With participation of the members of their science board, they enlarged the video images. They did all the detailed analysis, checked their pixels, and went through frame by frame. ​ 

*Haktan Akdogan* : "_After doing all the necessary analysis which went on for several weeks, they came to a definite conclusion with no doubts that these are “100% genuine forages. The objects sighted in the aforementioned footage that have a structure that is made of specific material are definitely not made up by any kind of computer animation nor are they any form of special effects used for simulation in a studio or for a video effect therefore in conclusion it was decided that the sightings were neither a mock up or hoax. And it is concluded that these objects in the sightings that have physical and material structures do not belong in any category such as; planes, helicopters, meteors, Venus, Mars, satellites, fire balls, Chinese lantern, fire balls, weather balloons, natural or atmospheric phenomenon etc. and but rather fall into the category of UFOs."_ 

*Video Explanation Part 1:*​ 





*Video Explanation Part 2:*​ 





*Camera Model Details:*​The camera is based on the NTSC System with a diaphragm set at the maximum of 1.8. Canon DM-GRI-A. It's a 3CCD 20x optic 100x with a tele-converter mounted on a 58mm adapter. Tele-objective is a Sony brand vci hgd 1758 model lens, x 1.7​ 





​

*The National Council for the Study of Science and Technology *​ 

On January 31, 2008, a MiniDV format video cassette holding 35 minutes of footage was brought over to "TUBITAK" The Science and Technology Research Board of Turkey _(a Scientific Institution owned by the state that is highly reliable and influential) _National Observatory (TUG) by Mr.Tolga Ozdeniz, the Editor of "Reporter" that has been aired on ATV Channel. The footage on the cassette was said to have been recorded by a Canon GL1 MiniDV digital camera on a beach of a holiday village in Kumburgaz/Istanbul by an amateur. The images were examined by TUG- National Observatory Image Processing Unit. Because, it would take quite a long time to analyze all of the images, only randomly selected parts were pre-examined. During this process, emphasis was not placed on images produced by optical clarification effects which a number of point light sources generated. Here is a portion of their report:​ 
_“The objects observed on the images have a structure made of a specific material and definitely its no any kind of CGI animation or in any means a type of special effects used for simulation in a studio or for video effects. "So the conclusion of this report is that the observations are not a model, maquette or a fraud”. At the last part of the report, it’s concluded that the objects observed have a physical structure and are made of materials that don't belong to any category (airplanes, helicopters, meteors, Venus, Mars, Satellites, artificial lights, Chinese lanterns, etc.)" _​ 
TUBIAK Report by Prof. PHD Zeki Eker ​ 






*Roger Leir On Describes What He Saw*​ 








*Mario Valdes* *Graphic Analysis*​
Statement By Mario Valdes: "To be honest, at the beginning my idea was to analyze this videos hopping to find some elements in then that would evidence a possible fraud, taking in count the spectacularity in which the case was labeled (announced that for the very first time a UFO was videotaped with its occupants, precisely inside one of this objects, not a minor issue for those of us who are obsessed with these themes). It was like that, from skepticism, and why not say it ?, with a quote of prejudgment , I decided to take some time and checkout the fragments of the movie. You could say that the expectations were “to find the string of the puppet”. To make the analysis, I used electronic copies of the original videos, given to me by the Turkish investigator Haktan Akdogan, who picked up this case, first handed. I met with Haktan personally to comment this incident and I very grateful of him handing me a copy of the original tape, with which I could accomplish this work." _Mario Valdes SANTIAGO – CHILE_ ​

*Mario Valdes Video Analysis*
http://www.archivosovni.com/analisis-kumburgaz/kumburgaz-ingles.htm​ 

Turkey's UFO history started 5000 years ago with Flying Gods when it was called GokTurks which means "the people who come from the sky". There are underground cities all over the country. The most important ones are located in Cappadocia. They reach more than 20 stories underground. In today's Turkey, apparently those responsible for piloting these craft are still around. In 2007 a night guard captured the first in a series of close range videos and included supporting witnesses. During 2008 the metallic ufo seen in the video footage was observed by a crowd of witnesses and captured for several minutes on camera by a night watchman Yalman Yalcin. Sightings continued during 2009 and the best quality footage was filmed that including several minutes of the object during the daytime. In 2009 many people were watching the skies, between May and June. Once again there were many sightings and video taken of these objects. I attempted to find out if any oil rigs or large vessels could possibly have been misidentified and the answer is no. It has been determined that there are no in the Sea of Marmara. A 33 minute segment of the video taken between 4:59 a.m.and at 5:32 a.m., shows the object changing in appearance in a short amount of time after sunrise.​ 

The case made big news in Turkey and in other countries as well, but western media ignored the case. It also started a great debate between the official members of the Turkish scientific community. So far nobody has been able to demonstrate that the recordings are product of tricks or some type of manipulation. Therefore, the debate has concentrated more over the nature and origin of the objects filmed by Yalcin Yalman.​ 

*Turkey UFO Single Frame Images *​ 



​ 

A collection of still frames taken from the original footage. No altering was done to the images available in JPEG format. It is possible to download them and use yourself.
http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/h326/Turkeycasebook/​ 

*2009 Original Footage*​ 






*2008 Original Footage*​ 










http://turkeyufocase.blogspot.com/​


----------



## Lia

Cowboy said:


> *Turkey's UFO history started 5000 years ago with Flying Gods when it was called GokTurks which means "the people who come from the sky". There are underground cities all over the country*.


 
Once again we witness similar tales from ages past. I repeat, every civilization since the dawn of time have remarked upon, sketched, carved, written of, and paid homage to 'The Gods (in the plural) who came down from the skies. 

There is hardly a one which does not tell of these things, who insist that they are decendants of races not of this earth. Artifacts and paintings abound in ancient history, showing that we are not alone, we have never been alone.


----------



## fogtender

Cowboy said:


> Interesting video and article Foggy and Lia . I have been busy with among other things doing some more research on the video I had posted earlier and I am reposting it again along with a link that has a lot of information, research, vids and other links related to it . Its by far the best group of evidence I have found yet allthough some of it is repeats that have been posted before , well worth the look though as it still to this day appears to be genuine footage .
> 
> There have been many skeptics that have tried to debunk it with crap I cant even beleive they throw out there. Ones explanation is it is the top deck of a cruise ship and he has spent many years trying to prove it. Talk about a crazie.
> 
> At any rate here it is if anyone is interested , some of the links might be dead but theres still plenty of newer research, several videos at the link at the very bottom of this post. .
> 
> UFO Istanbul / Kumburgaz Turkey - YouTube
> 
> *Saturday, April 16, 2011*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> 
> This case developed in the location of Kumburgaz, Turkey between the years 2007, 2008 and 2009 and is still ongoing. The video was taken by a security guard at the Yeni Kent Compound which is located along the beach. One singularity of this case was that the images were made with a camera that had an adaptor for close ups of 200X optical, achieving a great amount of detail of the objects. During this period several minutes of close range video were taken of metallic ufos floating or changing while in flight over the sea coast of Marmara.
> 
> Many special effects and imaging experts have tried to debunk the footage including: Prof. José Atenas, an expert in graphics and video, with more than 30 years of experience on television, Prof. phD. Zeki EKERDirector National Council For The Study Of Science And Technology and National Observatory, and Mario Valdesfrom Santiago Chile. Other analysis were done by video specialists, image edition and special effect companies from Japan, Russia and Turkey, all ending up with the same conclusions. Each expert that studied the raw footage did not detect any evidence pointing in the direction of a balloon, prop, model, or special effects.
> 
> *Short Video Explanation - 15 Minutes *​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Sirius UFO Space Science Research Center* ​
> 
> At first, the videos were analyzed and made public by the, directed by the researcher Haktan Akdogan. Sirius UFO Space Science Research Center firstly, spoke with all the witnesses separately then did the detailed analysis of the videos. With participation of the members of their science board, they enlarged the video images. They did all the detailed analysis, checked their pixels, and went through frame by frame. ​
> 
> *Haktan Akdogan* : "_After doing all the necessary analysis which went on for several weeks, they came to a definite conclusion with no doubts that these are “100% genuine forages. The objects sighted in the aforementioned footage that have a structure that is made of specific material are definitely not made up by any kind of computer animation nor are they any form of special effects used for simulation in a studio or for a video effect therefore in conclusion it was decided that the sightings were neither a mock up or hoax. And it is concluded that these objects in the sightings that have physical and material structures do not belong in any category such as; planes, helicopters, meteors, Venus, Mars, satellites, fire balls, Chinese lantern, fire balls, weather balloons, natural or atmospheric phenomenon etc. and but rather fall into the category of UFOs."_
> 
> *Video Explanation Part 1:*​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Video Explanation Part 2:*​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Camera Model Details:*​The camera is based on the NTSC System with a diaphragm set at the maximum of 1.8. Canon DM-GRI-A. It's a 3CCD 20x optic 100x with a tele-converter mounted on a 58mm adapter. Tele-objective is a Sony brand vci hgd 1758 model lens, x 1.7​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> *The National Council for the Study of Science and Technology *​
> 
> On January 31, 2008, a MiniDV format video cassette holding 35 minutes of footage was brought over to "TUBITAK" The Science and Technology Research Board of Turkey _(a Scientific Institution owned by the state that is highly reliable and influential) _National Observatory (TUG) by Mr.Tolga Ozdeniz, the Editor of "Reporter" that has been aired on ATV Channel. The footage on the cassette was said to have been recorded by a Canon GL1 MiniDV digital camera on a beach of a holiday village in Kumburgaz/Istanbul by an amateur. The images were examined by TUG- National Observatory Image Processing Unit. Because, it would take quite a long time to analyze all of the images, only randomly selected parts were pre-examined. During this process, emphasis was not placed on images produced by optical clarification effects which a number of point light sources generated. Here is a portion of their report:​
> _“The objects observed on the images have a structure made of a specific material and definitely its no any kind of CGI animation or in any means a type of special effects used for simulation in a studio or for video effects. "So the conclusion of this report is that the observations are not a model, maquette or a fraud”. At the last part of the report, it’s concluded that the objects observed have a physical structure and are made of materials that don't belong to any category (airplanes, helicopters, meteors, Venus, Mars, Satellites, artificial lights, Chinese lanterns, etc.)" _​
> TUBIAK Report by Prof. PHD Zeki Eker ​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Roger Leir On Describes What He Saw*​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Mario Valdes* *Graphic Analysis*​
> Statement By Mario Valdes: "To be honest, at the beginning my idea was to analyze this videos hopping to find some elements in then that would evidence a possible fraud, taking in count the spectacularity in which the case was labeled (announced that for the very first time a UFO was videotaped with its occupants, precisely inside one of this objects, not a minor issue for those of us who are obsessed with these themes). It was like that, from skepticism, and why not say it ?, with a quote of prejudgment , I decided to take some time and checkout the fragments of the movie. You could say that the expectations were “to find the string of the puppet”. To make the analysis, I used electronic copies of the original videos, given to me by the Turkish investigator Haktan Akdogan, who picked up this case, first handed. I met with Haktan personally to comment this incident and I very grateful of him handing me a copy of the original tape, with which I could accomplish this work." _Mario Valdes SANTIAGO – CHILE_ ​
> 
> *Mario Valdes Video Analysis*
> http://www.archivosovni.com/analisis-kumburgaz/kumburgaz-ingles.htm​
> 
> Turkey's UFO history started 5000 years ago with Flying Gods when it was called GokTurks which means "the people who come from the sky". There are underground cities all over the country. The most important ones are located in Cappadocia. They reach more than 20 stories underground. In today's Turkey, apparently those responsible for piloting these craft are still around. In 2007 a night guard captured the first in a series of close range videos and included supporting witnesses. During 2008 the metallic ufo seen in the video footage was observed by a crowd of witnesses and captured for several minutes on camera by a night watchman Yalman Yalcin. Sightings continued during 2009 and the best quality footage was filmed that including several minutes of the object during the daytime. In 2009 many people were watching the skies, between May and June. Once again there were many sightings and video taken of these objects. I attempted to find out if any oil rigs or large vessels could possibly have been misidentified and the answer is no. It has been determined that there are no in the Sea of Marmara. A 33 minute segment of the video taken between 4:59 a.m.and at 5:32 a.m., shows the object changing in appearance in a short amount of time after sunrise.​
> 
> The case made big news in Turkey and in other countries as well, but western media ignored the case. It also started a great debate between the official members of the Turkish scientific community. So far nobody has been able to demonstrate that the recordings are product of tricks or some type of manipulation. Therefore, the debate has concentrated more over the nature and origin of the objects filmed by Yalcin Yalman.​
> 
> *Turkey UFO Single Frame Images *​
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> A collection of still frames taken from the original footage. No altering was done to the images available in JPEG format. It is possible to download them and use yourself.
> http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/h326/Turkeycasebook/​
> 
> *2009 Original Footage*​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *2008 Original Footage*​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://turkeyufocase.blogspot.com/​




Wow, you've been pretty busy!

Neat stuff!


----------



## fogtender

Lia said:
			
		

> Once again we witness similar tales from ages past. I repeat, every civilization since the dawn of time have remarked upon, sketched, carved, written of, and paid homage to 'The Gods (in the plural) who came down from the skies.
> 
> There is hardly a one which does not tell of these things, who insist that they are decendants of races not of this earth. Artifacts and paintings abound in ancient history, showing that we are not alone, we have never been alone.



At times I wonder if Jesus could have been from another world, literally!  He turned water into wine, walked on water and a host of other things that man couldn't imagine being able to do.  If I went back to those times with a bic lighter and made fire from my hands, shocked people with a tazer and other items that we see in a normal day, I could be easily thought of as a God, or in my case a Demon! (Way too much fun Tazing the non believers)  )

But had they come down in various stages of man's evolution, they would have been thought to be of the Gods.  When in fact they were just giving a helping hand at the time.


----------



## RedRocker

Lia said:


> Once again we witness similar tales from ages past. I repeat, every civilization since the dawn of time have remarked upon, sketched, carved, written of, and paid homage to 'The Gods (in the plural) who came down from the skies.
> 
> There is hardly a one which does not tell of these things, who insist that they are descendants of races not of this earth. Artifacts and paintings abound in ancient history, showing that we are not alone, we have never been alone.





fogtender said:


> At times I wonder if Jesus could have been from another world, literally!  He turned water into wine, walked on water and a host of other things that man couldn't imagine being able to do.  If I went back to those times with a bic lighter and made fire from my hands, shocked people with a tazer and other items that we see in a normal day, I could be easily thought of as a God, or in my case a Demon! (Way too much fun Tazing the non believers)  )
> 
> But had they come down in various stages of man's evolution, they would have been thought to be of the Gods.  When in fact they were just giving a helping hand at the time.



This line of thinking has always made the most sense to me.


----------



## Lia

_*"Our sun is one of a 100 billion stars in our galaxy. Our galaxy is one of billions of galaxies populating the universe. It would be the height of presumption to think that we are the only living thing in that enormous immensity" *_

*– Wernher Von Braun*​

The above is indisputable. We have to accept it because it is fact, not fiction. *100 billion stars,* just in our galaxy alone. Think about that for a second. Now think about *the billions of galaxies *there are in just our own universe, and remember that scientist now say that there are universes alongside, and beyond ours. 

We have to accept also that other civilizations on other planets are not necessarily at the level that we are today. Some will be new, perhaps embryonic even; some will be very old, some close to our own evolution, some just beyond perhaps. It simply cannot be assumed that humans are the only race in the universe (which is immense), to harbor pioneers, explorers . There will be Rces who are so advanced that we could not hope to even begin to understand their technology.

On the other hand there will be races who are so far back down the evolutionary scale that they will be barely out of fur-skins and fashioning tools from flint. Lets face it, those aliens races that have the knowledge and technology, and who are beyond our own level of growth will have looked, just as we are beginning to do, beyond their own worlds. And they will have ventured far further than we have, to date.

Not all of these alien races will be morally sound. Why would we think they would be? After all, we, as a race, are about as corrupt as a society could possibly be. I don’t doubt for one second that there will be races who are far above us in knowledge and dignity; who have reached, perhaps, levels of purity that we can only wonder at. But, you can be equally assured that there are those societies out there who may have reached an advanced state materially, but are as morally bankrupt as we are. 

If we are prepared to use nuclear weaponry (and we are, make no mistake about that), why would other alien races not do so? What if they already have? 

There is immense evidence from ancient history of such events having taken place.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FayioNH4KoY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FayioNH4KoY[/ame]


----------



## Lia

This speaks fo itself...   


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mHe211mLV0&feature=related"]Ancient Technology (Part 1)      - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## fogtender

Lia, That kinda ties things together nicely!


----------



## Cowboy

Here is an article and short related video some of you may find interesting or may not have heard about. Video below the article. 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/09/15/idUS166901+15-Sep-2010+PRN20100915


Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:44am EDT 


*U.S. Nuclear Weapons Have Been Compromised by Unidentified Aerial Objects*

PR Newswire
WASHINGTON, Sept. 15

*E**x-m**ili**tary m**e**n say **unkn**own **in**trud**e**rs** h**ave**mo**ni**tor**e**d **a**n**d **e**v**e**n tamp**e**red w**i**th Am**e**r**i**can **nu**c**le**ar m**issi**l**e**s *
*G**ro**u**p to ca**l**l on **U.**S. **G**ov**e**r**n**m**en**t to r**e**v**e**al t**h**e**f**act**s*
WASHINGTON, Sept. 15 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- Witness testimony from more than 120 former or retired military personnel points to an ongoing and alarming intervention by unidentified aerial objects at nuclear weapons sites, as recently as 2003. In some cases, several nuclear missiles simultaneously and inexplicably malfunctioned while a disc-shaped object silently hovered nearby. Six former U.S. Air Force officers and one former enlisted man will break their silence about these events at the National Press Club and urge the government to publicly confirm their reality.
One of them, ICBM launch officer Captain Robert Salas, was on duty during one missile disruption incident at Malmstrom Air Force Base and was ordered to never discuss it. Another participant, retired Col. Charles Halt, observed a disc-shaped object directing beams of light down into the RAF Bentwaters airbase in England and heard on the radio that they landed in the nuclear weapons storage area. Both men will provide stunning details about these events, and reveal how the U.S. military responded.
Captain Salas notes, "The U.S. Air Force is lying about the national security implications of unidentified aerial objects at nuclear bases and we can prove it." Col. Halt adds, "I believe that the security services of both the United States and the United Kingdom have attempted—both then and now—to subvert the significance of what occurred at RAF Bentwaters by the use of well-practiced methods of disinformation."
The group of witnesses and a leading researcher, who has brought them together for the first time, will discuss the national security implications of these and other alarmingly similar incidents and will urge the government to reveal all information about them. This is a public-awareness issue.
Declassified U.S. government documents, to be distributed at the event, now substantiate the reality of UFO activity at nuclear weapons sites extending back to 1948. The press conference will also address present-day concerns about the abuse of government secrecy as well as the ongoing threat of nuclear weapons.
*WHO:* *Dwynne Arneson*, USAF Lt. Col. Ret., communications center officer-in-charge
*Bruce Fenstermacher*, former USAF nuclear missile launch officer 
*Charles Halt*, USAF Col. Ret., former deputy base commander 
*Robert Hastings*, researcher and author
*Robert Jamison*, former USAF nuclear missile targeting officer
*Patrick McDonough*, former USAF nuclear missile site geodetic surveyor
*Jerome Nelson*, former USAF nuclear missile launch officer
*Robert Salas*, former USAF nuclear missile launch officer
*WHAT:* Noted researcher Robert Hastings, author of _UFOs and Nukes: Extraordinary Encounters at Nuclear Weapons Sites_, will moderate a distinguished panel of former U.S. Air Force officers involved in UFO incidents at nuclear missile sites near Malmstrom, F.E. Warren, and Walker AFBs, as well as the nuclear weapons depot at RAF Bentwaters.
*WHEN:* Monday, September 27, 2010
12:30 p.m.
*WHERE:* National Press Club 
Holeman Lounge
Event open to credentialed media and Congressional staff only
SOURCE Former U.S. Air Force Officer Robert Salas, and Researcher Robert Hastings


ALIEN AGENDA? 50 nuclear missiles disabled
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ybg_mI6o7k"]ALIEN AGENDA? 50 nuclear missiles disabled - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Cowboy

Here is another video that I find fascinating that shows things I have never even heard about before . It is well worth watching if you would like to know more about what could have very well been our ancestors that the history books and archeologists have never made known to the public. 

  It starts out a bit boring but if you take the time to watch it I think some may be amazed .    Once again watch and make your own decision . 


Klaus Dona : The Hidden History of the Human Race (March 2010) 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmMwo1Xzgus&feature=youtu.be


----------



## Lia

And, if all else doesn't convince you all that there is something definitely strange and other worldly about planet earth, click on the link below. Awesome. yet perplexing. 

*What the heck are these things? Where did they come from?  *

http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2011/09/sensational-rock-formations-moeraki.html


----------



## Lia

Perhaps not of Alien origin, yet equally mysterious...

What, or who, could have caused these? We simply don't know, and, like the spherical rock formations above, any explanation is mere speculation and theory. Nothing more...

http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2009/02/majorly-mysterious-mima-mounds.html


----------



## tsaw

Well haven't said anything in this thread for a while, but i have been enjoying it. This is where I'm at at this point: Until you can show me (and the scientific community) one concrete piece of evidence : something that can be studied, looked at and held from an alien planet... then it's all just: Maybe... might be... could have happened.. wish full thinking. 
With that said, I'm a believer in life in the universe other than earth. But there is nothing to convince me yet.


----------



## Lia

tsaw said:


> Well haven't said anything in this thread for a while, but i have been enjoying it. This is where I'm at at this point: Until you can show me (and the scientific community) one concrete piece of evidence : something that can be studied, looked at and held from an alien planet... then it's all just: Maybe... might be... could have happened.. wish full thinking.
> With that said, I'm a believer in life in the universe other than earth. But there is nothing to convince me yet.


 
That's cool; at least we have got you thinking outside the box. Oh, and tsaw, the scientific community, at least many of them, are already on board. Many of the 'quotes' posted here have come from scientists, geologists, archaeologists, historians, etc...   

That you are enjoying the thread is enuff for me, as I'm sure it is for those others who have dedicated their time and belief in the thread.


----------



## Lia

Cowboy said:


> Here is an article and short related video some of you may find interesting or may not have heard about. Video below the article.
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/09/15/idUS166901+15-Sep-2010+PRN20100915


 
Bob, I've only just been able to view the video now... great post. I remember that this was discussed, in depth, in another forum I use to frequent. This is not an isolated case either, it has been happening over a long period of time, and military whistle blowers have ranger from regular squaddies right up to generals.

Its interesting (and I'm not saying that I believe in these reported abduction stories), but abductees often mention that 'the greys' have told them that we shall' not be allowed' (???) to destroy our planet again, since, apparently we have done so 5 or 6 times previously. Witness the planets area's of high radiation levels, dotted here and there; and our deserts. I don't know where I read it, but there was a case that was put forward that some of our deserts consist of 'vitrified glass.' Whivh, I believe cvan only vome about by intense heat, such as nuclear heat.

I'll try to research this; I may have gotten it wrong, since I believe that I read this some years ago, and I could be in the wrong area of the solar system with that claim. I'll get back to y'all on that...


----------



## Lia

Cowboy said:


> Klaus Dona : The Hidden History of the Human Race (March 2010)


 
In the second half of that link, the tools, instruments and other artifacts, none of which can, apparently, be duplicated today, are incredibly thought provoking. the video is, as you say, hard going. I would say that the first half is rather monotonous, but its well worth persevering with it, because the second half, as I said, is astounding.


----------



## Cowboy

tsaw said:


> Well haven't said anything in this thread for a while, but i have been enjoying it. This is where I'm at at this point: Until you can show me (and the scientific community) one concrete piece of evidence : something that can be studied, looked at and held from an alien planet... then it's all just: Maybe... might be... could have happened.. wish full thinking.
> With that said, I'm a believer in life in the universe other than earth. But there is nothing to convince me yet.


I am glad you are finding this interesting Tom and no offence but I dont think you sre finding interesting enough to do much more the skim through it . Theres plenty of evidence posted here that should at least make it clear this aint about a bunch of fruitcakes claiming they have been abducted or folks saying crap that they can profit from books , articles, or movies . 

These are real people of authority that are tired of crap being kept from the public because all of the governments are afraid if the truth got out they would be looked at as an inferior power and not able to protect their own . All of the worlds religions plays a huge part as well because they are afraid their beleifs may be BS which very well not be the case IMO . Just misinterpeted in some cases . 

Bottom line no one including myself is trying to convince anyone of anything , just trying to share what is available from the resources since the internet is available . 

Thats what gets me about skeptics no matter the subject , they have no proof something doesn't exsist, but wont take the time to look at whats under their own nose with an open mind. Next best thing is look up , you may very well be surprised at what you see .


----------



## fogtender

tsaw said:


> Well haven't said anything in this thread for a while, but i have been enjoying it. This is where I'm at at this point: Until you can show me (and the scientific community) one concrete piece of evidence : something that can be studied, looked at and held from an alien planet... then it's all just: Maybe... might be... could have happened.. wish full thinking.
> With that said, I'm a believer in life in the universe other than earth. But there is nothing to convince me yet.


 
There are thousands of examples of just the carvings alone that show that they had some kind of assistance thousands of years ago.  Look at these carvings, the repeated symbols can't be re-carved by hand like this until the last century when with the aid of machine tools and computers.  They simply didn't have the tools to be able to carve stone with this skill level back then, but yet they did.  "Somebody" had to supply some kind of equipment that we have yet to find to be able to carve in such detail and repetitively with such accuracy!


----------



## Cowboy

Two clear and well-c0nstructed compilations of NASA’s close encounters with UFOs during many shuttle and moon missions: At the link. 

http://stevebeckow.com/2010/06/two-nasa-compilations-of-ufo-encounters/


----------



## Cowboy

Here an interesting report from Fox news that has video footage from the Mexican military planes from a few years ago. There are many governments that want to disclose this to the public but it seems the USA is the one keeping it a secret. Go figure. 

   The proof is there you just have to open your eyes to see it. 


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDOOZ_IPb6Y"]UFOs - FOX News - Mexican Air Force - CNN News - OVNIs      - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Cowboy

Heres another very good video of several different UFO's being filmed . The most impresive to me is where one has been filmed crashing. Starts at the 2:08 mark . But there are several more in the vid. 

http://www.youtube.com/user/Mac5ize


----------



## Lia

Cowboy said:


> Heres another very good video of several different UFO's being filmed . The most impresive to me is where one has been filmed crashing. Starts at the 2:08 mark . But there are several more in the vid.





Cowboy said:


> http://www.youtube.com/user/Mac5ize


 
I got half way thro the video Bob; it’s riveting. I had to break off there, work commitments, but I will look at the other half tomorrow. That which I did see was absolutely exciting viewing, but in particular the sighting that starts at 03:46/14:48 on the video. The way that seemed to ‘generate’ myriad smaller spheres was stunning. I say ‘generate’ because I can’t see how the sphere could contain so many smaller craft, because the ‘mothership’ (for want of something to call the main craft), was not, or did not seem big enuff to have contained them all. 

The speed from which they, and it flew across the sky, and the way and speed in which the main craft ‘spawned’ the smaller craft leaves one wondering just how much more advanced, technologically these visitors are, to us. Frightening really…

Just recently I had a new PC; and not being computer savvy myself, my Uncle saved all of my files; documents, pictures, music, ‘my favorites’ section, etc, onto a memory stick and transferred them onto the new comp. In ‘my favorites,’ from my Vista, I had a vast amount of folders of various phenomenon, and documents, video’s, articles, and more, on UFO’s and Alien lifeforms, alone. 

I had some in ‘my documents, but much more in my favorites; and not to mention a vast collection and archives of other interest and even some from my work files. To my horror, somehow, and quite by accident, after he had thought that he’d copied my favorites, but had copied my documents twice instead, I have lost the lot. Lock stock and barrel.

I’d taken a sledgehammer to the hard-drive of the Vista, and since I’ve been having some work done around the house and grounds, I’d filled up the car with a great many things that were surplus to requirements, including the Vista comp, to be taken to the local tip; so there is no way that these archives can ever be recovered. I don’t need to tell you that I could spit feathers right at this moment. 

Of course, there was no way that it was anything other than an accident on his part, and there can be no thought of acrimony between us, over it. 
So, much of what I may contribute in future, to the thread, will have to be researched all over again. 5 or 6 years work down the drain. Grrr!!!!


----------



## fogtender

Cowboy said:


> Heres another very good video of several different UFO's being filmed . The most impresive to me is where one has been filmed crashing. Starts at the 2:08 mark . But there are several more in the vid.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/Mac5ize



Couldn't see the video on my iPhone, so will look at it later, but was able to see the rest of their video titles. Pretty neat stuff to look at tonight!


----------



## fogtender

Lia said:


> I got half way thro the video Bob; it’s riveting. I had to break off there, work commitments, but I will look at the other half tomorrow. That which I did see was absolutely exciting viewing, but in particular the sighting that starts at 03:46/14:48 on the video. The way that seemed to ‘generate’ myriad smaller spheres was stunning. I say ‘generate’ because I can’t see how the sphere could contain so many smaller craft, because the ‘mothership’ (for want of something to call the main craft), was not, or did not seem big enuff to have contained them all.
> 
> The speed from which they, and it flew across the sky, and the way and speed in which the main craft ‘spawned’ the smaller craft leaves one wondering just how much more advanced, technologically these visitors are, to us. Frightening really…
> 
> Just recently I had a new PC; and not being computer savvy myself, my Uncle saved all of my files; documents, pictures, music, ‘my favorites’ section, etc, onto a memory stick and transferred them onto the new comp. In ‘my favorites,’ from my Vista, I had a vast amount of folders of various phenomenon, and documents, video’s, articles, and more, on UFO’s and Alien lifeforms, alone.
> 
> I had some in ‘my documents, but much more in my favorites; and not to mention a vast collection and archives of other interest and even some from my work files. To my horror, somehow, and quite by accident, after he had thought that he’d copied my favorites, but had copied my documents twice instead, I have lost the lot. Lock stock and barrel.
> 
> I’d taken a sledgehammer to the hard-drive of the Vista, and since I’ve been having some work done around the house and grounds, I’d filled up the car with a great many things that were surplus to requirements, including the Vista comp, to be taken to the local tip; so there is no way that these archives can ever be recovered. I don’t need to tell you that I could spit feathers right at this moment.
> 
> Of course, there was no way that it was anything other than an accident on his part, and there can be no thought of acrimony between us, over it.
> So, much of what I may contribute in future, to the thread, will have to be researched all over again. 5 or 6 years work down the drain. Grrr!!!!



Sorry to hear about the computer files, hope you can replace most of it!!


----------



## Lia

Well Bob, I managed to find the time to watch the second half of the video early this morning... It's got to be one of the most comprehensive compilations that I've seen to date. Some of them I'd seen before, many I hadn't. 

I don't think that folk realize the full volume of unidentified traffic in our atmosphere and air space, *in any one month,* never mind annually. I do have, or had information on the statistics of it and will try to find it and post it here.


----------



## Lia

I’m not sure if I’ve posted this article before, here, or in another thread. But if folk are anything like me, sometimes I’m glad to be reminded of something if it is salient to the topic in question.

I’m not sure that I would agree with many of the theories here; for starters, the concept that all alien races should necessarily look like us. The ‘Greys’ for example, don’t look anything like us (the Greys, especially have been recorded in paintings, engravings and in texts since ancient times). Apparently, the Nordics do, and we are supposed, I believe, to have been descended from their DNA manipulation and mutational experiments. I’ll get to that in another post…




> *Earth must prepare for close encounter with aliens, say scientists. UN should co-ordinate plans for dealing with extraterrestrials – and we can't guarantee that aliens will be friendly*
> 
> 
> Alok Jha, science correspondent guardian.co.uk, Monday 10 January 2011 07.00 GMT Article history
> 
> Evolution on alien worlds is likely to be Darwinian, which may mean extraterrestrials share our tendencies for violence and exploitation.
> 
> World governments should prepare a co-ordinated action plan in case Earth is contacted by aliens, according to scientists.
> 
> They argue that a branch of the UN must be given responsibility for "supra-Earth affairs" and formulate a plan for how to deal with extraterrestrials, should they appear.
> 
> The comments are part of an extraterrestrial-themed edition of the Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society A published today. In it, scientists examine all aspects of the search for extraterrestrial life, from astronomy and biology to the political and religious fallout that would result from alien contact.
> 
> "Will a suitable process based on expert advice from proper and responsible scientists arise at all, or will interests of power and opportunism more probably set the scene?" asked Professor John Zarnecki of the Open University and Dr Martin Dominik of the University of St Andrews in the introductory paper. "A lack of co-ordination can be avoided by creating an overarching framework in a truly global effort governed by an international politically legitimated body." The pair argue that the UN has a ready-made mechanism for such a forum in its Committee on the Peaceful Uses of Outer Space (Copuos).
> 
> Member states of Copuos should put "supra-Earth affairs" on their agenda, say the scientists, and establish structures similar to those proposed for dealing with threats from near-Earth objects, such as asteroids, that might be on a collision course with our planet.
> 
> According to Simon Conway Morris, a professor of evolutionary palaeobiology at Cambridge University, anyone planning for alien contact should prepare for the worst.
> 
> Evolution on alien worlds, he said, is likely to be Darwinian in nature. Morris argues that life anywhere else in the universe will therefore probably have important similarities with life on Earth – especially if it comes from Earth-like worlds that have similar biological molecules to ours. That means ET might resemble us, warts and all, with our tendencies towards violence and exploitation.
> 
> "Why should we 'prepare for the worst'? First, if intelligent aliens exist, they will look just like us, and given our far from glorious history, this should give us pause for thought," wrote Morris in the journal's special issue.
> 
> Ted Peters, a professor of systematic theology at the Pacific Lutheran Theological Seminary in California, considered what might happen to the world's religions in the event of ET making contact. Conventional wisdom suggests that terrestrial religion would collapse if the existence of extraterrestrial intelligence (ETI) were confirmed, he wrote.
> 
> "Because our religious traditions formulated their key beliefs within an ancient world view now out of date, would shocking new knowledge dislodge our pre-modern dogmas? Are religious believers Earth-centric, so that contact with ET would de-centre and marginalise our sense of self-importance? Do our traditional religions rank us human beings on top of life's hierarchy, so if we meet ETI who are smarter than us will we lose our superior rank? If we are created in God's image, as the biblical traditions teach, will we have to share that divine image with our new neighbours?"
> 
> His conclusion, however, is that faith in Earth's major religions would survive intact. "Theologians will not find themselves out of a job. In fact, theologians might relish the new challenges to reformulate classical religious commitments in light of the new and wider vision of God's creation."
> 
> "Traditional theologians must then become astrotheologians ... What I forecast is this: contact with extraterrestrial intelligence will expand the existing religious vision that all of creation – including the 13.7bn-year history of the universe replete with all of God's creatures – is the gift of a loving and gracious God," he speculated.


----------



## Cowboy

FYI for anyone that has been following the Ancient Aliens series, Season 3 - episodes 7,8 & 9 have been added to the main menu link and can be found in the right menu in this link.

   I found them all very interesting and these are in 3 15 minute segments per episode so a little easier to watch if you dont have time for the full program. 

http://www.youtube.com/user/Time4TruthDOTorg#p/u


----------



## Lia

Cowboy said:


> FYI for anyone that has been following the Ancient Aliens series, Season 3 - episodes 7,8 & 9 have been added to the main menu link and can be found in the right menu in this link.
> 
> I found them all very interesting and these are in 3 15 minute segments per episode so a little easier to watch if you dont have time for the full program.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/Time4TruthDOTorg#p/u


 
Thanks so much Bob. I'll take a look at that shortly.


----------



## Lia

I make no claims as to the authenticity of this alleged event. Just that it is interesting, and that there is a wealth of research data here for the claims made.

I believe I have posted this info and articles before here, in a thread of Cowboys, but I could be wrong about that; my memory is lamentably and shockingly lax at times... In any event, I hope that it will be of interest to y'all.   
​


> *Eisenhower’s 1954 Meeting With Extraterrestrials: The Fiftieth Anniversary of First Contact? *​
> 
> 
> 
> *Introduction [1] *
> On the night and early hours of February 20-21, 1954, while on a ‘vacation’ to Palm Springs, California, President Dwight Eisenhower went missing and allegedly was taken to Edwards Air force base for a secret meeting. When he showed up the next morning at a church service in Los Angeles, reporters were told that he had to have emergency dental treatment the previous evening and had visited a local dentist. The dentist later appeared at a function that evening and presented as the ‘dentist’ who had treated Eisenhower. The missing night and morning has subsequently fueled rumors that Eisenhower was using the alleged dentist visit as a cover story for an extraordinary event. The event is possibly the most significant that any American President could have conducted: an alleged ‘First Contact’ meeting with extraterrestrials at Edwards Air Force base (previously Muroc Airfield), and the beginning of a series of meetings with different extraterrestrial races that led to a ‘treaty’ that was eventually signed. This astonishing First Contact event, if it occurred, will experience its 50th anniversary on February 20-21, 2004.
> 
> 
> This paper explores the evidence that the First Contact meeting had occurred with extraterrestrials with a distinctive ‘Nordic’ appearance, the likelihood of an agreement having been spurned with this ‘Nordic race’, the start of a series of meetings that led to a treaty eventually being signed with a different extraterrestrial race dubbed the ‘Greys’, and the motivations of the different extraterrestrial races involved in these treaty discussions. The paper will further examine why these events were kept secret for so long, the significance of the 50th anniversary of Eisenhower’s meeting with extraterrestrials, and whether an official disclosure announcement is likely in the near future.
> 
> *Circumstantial Evidence Supporting Eisenhower’s ‘First Contact’ Meeting with Extraterrestrials*
> There is circumstantial and testimonial evidence supporting Eisenhower’s meeting with extraterrestrials and the start of a series of meetings that culminated in the signing of a treaty with a different group of extraterrestrials. The most intriguing are circumstances surrounding Eisenhower’s alleged winter vacation to Palm Springs, California from February 17-24, 1954. Firstly, the ”vacation for the President” which was announced rather suddenly and came less than a week after Eisenhower’s ‘quail shooting’ vacation in Georgia. According to UFO researcher, William Moore, all this was quite unusual and suggested that there was more to the one week visit to Palm Springs than a simple holiday. [2]
> 
> Second, on the Saturday night of February 20, President Eisenhower did go missing fueling press speculation that he had taken ill or even died. In a hastily convened press conference, Eisenhower’s Press Secretary announced that Eisenhower had lost a tooth cap while eating fried chicken and had to be rushed to a local dentist. The local dentist was introduced at an official function on Sunday February 21, as "the dentist who had treated the president". [3] Moore’s investigation of the incident concluded that the dentist’s visit was being used as a cover story for Eisenhower’s true whereabouts.
> 
> 
> Consequently, Eisenhower was missing for an entire evening and could easily have been taken from Palm Springs to the nearby Muroc Airfield, later renamed Edwards Air Force base. The unscheduled nature of the President’s vacation, the missing President and the dentist cover story provide circumstantial evidence that the true purpose of his Palm Springs vacation was for him to attend an event whose importance was such that it could not be disclosed to the general public. A meeting with extraterrestrials may well have been the true purpose of his visit.
> 
> *Gerald Light’s Letter That Eisenhower Met With Extraterrestrials*
> The first public source alleging a meeting with extraterrestrials was Gerald Light who in a letter dated April 16, 1954 to Meade Layne, the then director of Borderland Sciences Research Associates (now Foundation), claimed he was part of a delegation of community leaders to an alleged meeting with extraterrestrials at Edwards Air Force Base. In a subsequent article, Meade Layne described Light as a “gifted and highly educated writer and lecturer”, who was skilled both in clairvoyance and the occult. [4] Light was a well-known metaphysical community leader in the Southern California area. The alleged purpose of him and others on the delegation was to test public reaction to the presence of extraterrestrials. Light described the circumstances of the meeting as follows:
> 
> 'My dear friends: I have just returned from Muroc [Edwards Air Force Base]. The report is true -- devastatingly true! I made the journey in company with Franklin Allen of the Hearst papers and Edwin Nourse of Brookings Institute (Truman's erstwhile financial advisor) and Bishop MacIntyre of L.A. (confidential names for the present, please). When we were allowed to enter the restricted section (after about six hours in which we were checked on every possible item, event, incident and aspect of our personal and public lives), I had the distinct feeling that the world had come to an end with fantastic realism. For I have never seen so many human beings in a state of complete collapse and confusion, as they realized that their own world had indeed ended with such finality as to beggar description. The reality of the ‘other plane’ aeroforms is now and forever removed from the realms of speculation and made a rather painful part of the consciousness of every responsible scientific and political group. During my two days' visit I saw five separate and distinct types of aircraft being studied and handled by our Air Force officials -- with the assistance and permission of the Etherians! I have no words to express my reactions. It has finally happened. It is now a matter of history. President Eisenhower, as you may already know, was spirited over to Muroc one night during his visit to Palm Springs recently. And it is my conviction that he will ignore the terrific conflict between the various 'authorities' and go directly to the people via radio and television -- if the impasse continues much longer. From what I could gather, an official statement to the country is being prepared for delivery about the middle of May. [5]
> 
> Of course no such formal announcement was made, and Light’s supposed meeting has either been the best-kept secret of the twentieth century or the fabrication of an elderly mystic known for out of body experiences. The events Light describes in his meeting in terms of the panic and confusion of many of those present, the emotional impact of the alleged landing, and the tremendous difference of opinion on what to do in terms of telling the public and responding to the extraterrestrial visitors, are plausible descriptions of what may have occurred. Indeed, the psychological and emotional impact Light describes for senior national security leaders at the meeting is consistent with what could be expected for such a ‘life changing event’. A further way of determining Light’s claim is to investigate the figures he named along with himself as part of the community delegation, and whether they could have been plausible candidates for such a meeting.
> 
> 
> Dr Edwin Nourse (1883-1974) was the first chairman of the Council of Economic Advisors to the President (1944-1953) and was President Truman’s chief economic advisor. [6] Nourse officially retired to private life in 1953 and would certainly have been a good choice of someone who could give confidential economic advise to the Eisenhower administration. If Dr Nourse was present at such a meeting, he did so in order to provide his expertise on the possible economic impact of First Contact with extraterrestrials. Another of the individuals mentioned by Light was Bishop MacIntyre.
> 
> Cardinal James Francis MacIntyre was the bishop and head of the Catholic Church in Los Angeles (1948-1970) and would have been an important gauge for the possible reaction from religious leaders generally, and in particular from the most influential and powerful religious institution on the planet – the Roman Catholic Church. In particular, Cardinal MacIntyre would have been a good choice as a representative for the Vatican since he was appointed the first Cardinal of the Western United States by Pope Pius XII in 1952. All Cardinal MacIntyre’s correspondence is closed to researchers thus making it impossible to confirm what impact the visit to Muroc had on him and what he communicated to other church leaders and the Vatican. [7] Cardinal MacIntyre had sufficient rank and authority to represent the Catholic Church and the religious community in a delegation of community leaders.
> 
> 
> The fourth member of the delegation of community leaders was Franklin Winthrop Allen, a former reporter with the Hearst Newspapers Group. [8] Allen was 80 years old at the time, author of a book instructing reporters on how to deal with Congressional Committee Hearings, and would have been a good choice for a member of the press who could maintain confidentiality.
> 
> The four represented senior leaders of the religious, spiritual, economic and newspaper communities and were well advanced in age and status. They would certainly have been plausible choices for a community delegation that could provide confidential advise on a possible public response to a First Contact event involving extraterrestrial races. Such a selection would have constituted a ‘wise men’ group that would have been entirely in character for the conservative nature of American society in 1954. While Light may well contrived such a list in a fabricated account or ‘out of body’ experience as Moore implies in his analysis, there is nothing in Light’s selection that eliminates the possibility that they were plausible members of such a delegation. [9] At face value then, the selection of such a ‘wise men’ group gives some credence to Light’s claim.
> 
> *Testimonies Supporting Eisenhower’s Meeting With Extraterrestrials *
> There are a number of other sources alleging an extraterrestrial meeting at Edwards Air force base that corresponded to a formal First Contact event. These sources are based on testimonies of ‘whistleblowers’ that witnessed documents or learned from their ‘insider contacts’ of such a meeting. These testimonies describe what appears to be two separate sets of meetings involving different extraterrestrial groups who met either with President Eisenhower and/or with Eisenhower administration officials over a short period of time. The first of these meetings, the actual ‘First Contact’ event, did not lead to an agreement and the extraterrestrials were effectively spurned. The second of these meetings did lead to an agreement, and this has been apparently become the basis of subsequent secret interactions with extraterrestrial races involved in the ‘treaty’ that was signed. There is some discrepancy in the sequence of meetings and where they were held, but all agree that a ‘First Contact’ meeting involving President Eisenhower did occur, and that one of these meetings occurred with his February 1954 visit to Edwards Air force base.
> 
> Read on:  http://exopolitics.org/study-paper-8.htm


----------



## Lia

Of course, most of you will realize that this material is now rather 'dated' and that things have 'moved on' from that stage. Hoever, I am thinking of those who are not familiar with the claims...



> *Maintaining Secrecy and Witness Credibility*
> 
> 
> The uncertainty over the motivations and behavior of the Grey extraterrestrials appears to have played a large role in the government decision not to disclose the extraterrestrial presence and the treaty Eisenhower signed with them.
> 
> The following passage from an ‘alleged official document’ leaked to UFO researchers describes the official secrecy policy adopted in April 1954, two months after Eisenhower had ‘First Contact’ with extraterrestrials who were spurned by the Eisenhower administration:
> 
> Any encounter with entities known to be of extraterrestrial origin is to be considered to be a matter of national security and therefore classified TOP SECRET (see below images).
> 
> Under no circumstances is the general public or the public press to learn of the existence of these entities. The official government policy is that such creatures do not exist, and that no agency of the federal government is now engaged in any study of extraterrestrials or their artifacts. Any deviation from this stated policy is absolutely forbidden. [33]
> 
> Penalties for disclosing classified information concerning extraterrestrials are quite severe. In December 1953, the Joint Chiefs of Staff issued Army-Navy-Air Force publication 146 that made the unauthorized release of information concerning UFOs a crime under the Espionage Act, punishable by up to 10 years in prison and a $10,000 fine. [34]
> 
> According to Robert Dean, this draconian penalty is what prevents most former military servicemen from coming forward to disclose information. [35]
> 
> Read on:
> 
> http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/exopolitica/esp_exopolitics_Q_1.htm​




​


----------



## Lia

I can't confirm the validity of the following claim; I'm just reporting the news as it comes to me. However, it would seem that Kay Ferrari, JPL Director of the SSA program at NASA does concur with the claim that Johnston was terminated for speaking out. 


*NASA Whistleblower: Alien Moon Cities Exist*



> Former National Aeronautics and Space Administration Data and Photo Control Department manager, Ken Johnston, who worked for the space agency's Lunar Receiving Laboratory during the Apollo mission’s has been fired for telling the truth.
> 
> Johnston asserts NASA knows astronauts discovered ancient alien cities and the remains of amazingly advanced machinery on the Moon. Some of the technology can manipulate gravity.
> 
> He says the agency ordered a cover-up and forced him to participate in it.
> Over the past 40 years other scientists, engineers and technicians have accused NASA of cover-ups and obscuring data.
> 
> The growing number of accusers' allegations range from hiding information about anomalous space objects and lying about the discovery of artifacts on the surface of the Moon and Mars, to denying the evidence of life reported back by the Viking lander during the mid-1970s.
> 
> According to Johnston, Apollo astronauts brought back photographic evidence of the artifacts they found during their lunar extravehicular activities (EVAs). Johnston claims NASA ordered him to destroy the EVA images while he was at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), but he refused.
> 
> When he went public, the space agency terminated him.
> Read on: http://beforeitsnews.com/story/1091/566/NASA_Whistleblower:_Alien_Moon_Cities_Exist.html


----------



## radiobob

Interesting subject, I've heard a lot of things as a lifelong fan of Fortean phenomena and anything strange and unusual. I've interviewed a lot of people, professional sceptics and the opposite, about some pretty strange stuff. But I try to be open minded but caustiously skeptical at the same time. and the burden of proof always lies with the people making the claim. Nothing would surprise me anymore. Here's a link with some pics that are pretty cool, but they don't really prove anything:

http://mountzion144.ning.com/profil...e-ken-johnston-is-fired-for-telling-the-truth

Bob


----------



## Lia

radiobob said:


> Interesting subject, I've heard a lot of things as a lifelong fan of Fortean phenomena and anything strange and unusual. I've interviewed a lot of people, professional sceptics and the opposite, about some pretty strange stuff. But I try to be open minded but caustiously skeptical at the same time. and the burden of proof always lies with the people making the claim. Nothing would surprise me anymore. Here's a link with some pics that are pretty cool, but they don't really prove anything:
> 
> http://mountzion144.ning.com/profil...e-ken-johnston-is-fired-for-telling-the-truth
> 
> Bob


 
lol. Sorry hon, but thats the same story as the one I posted above.

Not to worry, yours was more colorful.  *grins* 

But seriously, one has to be cautiously sceptical, as you and others here have said, whilst at the same time, opening our eyes to 'the real world and universe' around us. Good to have you aboard.


----------



## radiobob

Woops, didn't see that. You gotta wonder why they wouldn't want to publicize it though. It would be a big boost for NASA.

Bob


----------



## Lia

radiobob said:


> Woops, didn't see that. You gotta wonder why they wouldn't want to publicize it though. It would be a big boost for NASA.
> 
> Bob


 
Yes; I do think that there are several good reasons for NASA's reticence in opening up on the subject tho; but at the moment I'm working on a project and I don't have the time to compose a lengthy post on the topic. I'll get back with my thoughts on that later in the day.


----------



## Cowboy

Lia said:


> lol. Sorry hon, but thats the same story as the one I posted above.
> 
> Not to worry, yours was more colorful. *grins*
> 
> But seriously, one has to be cautiously sceptical, as you and others here have said, whilst at the same time, opening our eyes to 'the real world and universe' around us. Good to have you aboard.


 Yes it is the same article Lia but the link has some additional interesting follow up links I haven't ran across before.  


radiobob said:


> Woops, didn't see that. You gotta wonder why they wouldn't want to publicize it though. It would be a big boost for NASA.
> 
> Bob


No worrys Bob , thanks for the link as I said above, it has some other interesting info on that site as well .  We can never have to much information to follow when theres been so much covered up. 

 Its still up to each and everyone of us to come to our own conlusion to what might be BS or not.   I hope you take the time to view this entire thread as there is a lot of very interesting articles and video's posted within .


----------



## Cowboy

This is from the same link that Bob posted but includes the movie "Moon rising" , I justed started watching it and it looks very interesting so far. 

http://mountzion144.ning.com/video/moon-rising-full-disclosure-version-by-jose-escamilla


----------



## Lia

Cowboy said:


> This is from the same link that Bob posted but includes the movie "Moon rising" , I justed started watching it and it looks very interesting so far.
> 
> http://mountzion144.ning.com/video/moon-rising-full-disclosure-version-by-jose-escamilla


 
Right, I'll get to that as soon as I can. Thanks Cowboy.


radiobob, thanks...


----------



## Cowboy

I posted this story elsewhere in the forum the other day but going to post this one here that includes pics and a few possible reasons why NASA wants to create a "no fly zone" on the moon . 


*NASA Announces 'Forbidden Zones'...On Moon!*


http://beforeitsnews.com/story/1116/992/NASA_announces_forbidden_zones...on_Moon.html



[Note from author: This story originally broke in India. The American media is ignoring it. Why? _*Moon to have no-fly zones by month end*_. - *The Hindu* ... For those that may question *The Hindu* as a credible source, the _NASA Institute for Advanced Concepts_ believes The Hindu is a credible news source. They link to it themselves on this page (scroll on NIAC page to see link to The Hindu article about NASA's future). _This story is real._
*Feeling the pressure of mounting investigations launched by citizen activists concerning alien structures and artifacts on the Moon and Mars, the US National Aeronautics and Space Administration has made a bold and incredible move: NASA has announced No-Fly Zones on the Moon.*

Although the space agency claims the purpose of the No-Fly Zones are to preserve and protect the historic landing sites of the Apollo astronauts, some question why the zones happen to include regions where heavy attention has been focused—areas where purported alien technology is lying scattered across the lunar soil.



_An alleged alien artifact photographed near an Apollo landing site._ [From website *Over the Moon*]

According to official archives more than three dozen Lunar historical sites exist. It may be more than coincidence that many of the strange anomalies and structures are near, or in the same region as, all the Apollo landing and early Lunar space probe sites like Surveyor.



_Photo taken by LRO of a large artificial structure at_ _Rima Hadley not far from where Apollo 15 landed._

A portion of the NASA statement declares: _Apollo 11 and 17 sites [shall] remain off-limits, with ground-travel buffers of 75 metres and 225 meters from each respective lunar lander_. [Science journal reported the full guidelines.]



_Aerial view of alleged complex at Gassendi Crater._

Despite the pronouncement, international attorneys do not believe the space agency has the authority to enforce such a proclamation, nor claim any regions offbounds by nature of “U.S. government property on the moon.” They argue that the United Nations 1967 Outer Space Treaty takes precedence and that no nation can lay claim to any portion of the Moon.



_Apollo 12: Photo taken by NASA's Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter Camera (LROC)._

Despite that, NASA is desperate other countries will abide by its announcement—after all, more than 40 years of cover-up is at stake as well as the reputation and future funding of the currently beleagured agency.



_One of the many structures that just 'happens' to be in the No-Fly Zone._

While NASA takes pains that it's only doing this to protect astronauts' discarded food and feces, the argument itself is specious. The real purpose of the _No-Fly Zones_—alleged by some researchers—is to dissuade upcoming lunar missions by other countries including Japan, India and China from "spilling the beans" on what's really up there.

Space probes from the European Space Agency have already uncovered the fraud NASA perpetrated for decades about the real color of the Martian sky. [See: "The color of Mars"]

A Japanese lunar space probe uncovered astounding evidence of the alleged base that exists on the far side of the Moon. Some insiders swear that America has a secret military base on the Moon and present evidence to support their charge. [*See: Before It's News Claim: America has secret base on Moon*.]

Meanwhile, some NASA insiders have blown the whistle on the space agency and claim they have personally seen photographs and other evidence of artifacts, machinery—even cities—documented by robot and manned space mission from both the U.S. and former Soviet Union. [*See: Before It's News NASA whistleblower: Alien cities exist on Moon*.]



_Photo of alleged American Moonbase. Notice the structures in the *square-walled* 'crater.'_

Publicly, NASA says they were moved to act because of the announcement by Google's Lunar-X Prize. The Internet giant has created a contest awarding a monetary prize to the first private company that can land a robotic craft on the Moon, travel across the surface and transmit clear images. Google has sweetened the pot with the offer to add bonus money for a landing close to any of the Apollo sites.

Whether any of the up-and-coming spacefaring nations will abide by NASA's _No-Fly Zones_—especially if they discover hard evidence of ancient alien artifacts—is unknown. They probably won't abide by the NASA restrictions.

But unquestionably, the worried space agency desperately hopes they do.


----------



## Lia

> **NASA Announces 'Forbidden Zones'...On Moon!**
> 
> Although the space agency claims the purpose of the *No-Fly Zones are to preserve and protect the historic landing sites of the Apollo astronauts,* some question why the zones happen to include regions where heavy attention has been focused—areas where purported alien technology is lying scattered across the lunar soil.




Preserve and protect the landing sites of Apollo? lol. There’s only one reply that one could possibly use in response to this nonsense. It’s slang for testicles, and begins with B.

Do they really believe that we are all that dumb, that we would swallow such garbage? 

Call me naïve, but, we haven’t been back to the moon since the 60’s (if we ever went then, and I’m more inclined to believe we did now). So, call it curiosity, but who would just happen to be passing by up there, from here (‘cos let’s face it, they can’t possibly think that they can dictate to er… ET), so who do they think are gonna be skulling around up there, staking claim to areas of the Moon? Moreover, who would be policing this no fly zone policy?

Who do they believe has the wherewithal, and the technology to get up there, zip around the Moon a few times, scouting for des res plots? China? Russia? Who? Why do I get the feeling that NASA know summat we don’t; Something so earth shattering that they want to quarantine the Moon; and from whom? 

If its true, as Armstrong says, that they were ‘warned off the moon’ by ET; what’s changed now, that NASA feel they have ‘turf rights’ to claim a no fly zone up there? Are the stories of us having been at war with them for decades true? Did Eisenhower make a treaty with some, any of them, then? Have we, all this time, been misinformed as to the true state of affairs with the UFO/Alien issue? 

And, another thing! If NASA are set on calling a no fly zone around the Moon, what happens if they’re called out on this stupidity? Will we go to war up there with intruder’s (ET), other nations? Who will pay for this? Who will be in the front line fighting this claim?


----------



## fogtender

Cowboy said:


> I posted this story elsewhere in the forum the other day but going to post this one here that includes pics and a few possible reasons why NASA wants to create a "no fly zone" on the moon .
> 
> 
> *NASA Announces 'Forbidden Zones'...On Moon!*
> 
> 
> http://beforeitsnews.com/story/1116/992/NASA_announces_forbidden_zones...on_Moon.html
> 
> 
> 
> [Note from author: This story originally broke in India. The American media is ignoring it. Why? _*Moon to have no-fly zones by month end*_. - *The Hindu* ... For those that may question *The Hindu* as a credible source, the _NASA Institute for Advanced Concepts_ believes The Hindu is a credible news source. They link to it themselves on this page (scroll on NIAC page to see link to The Hindu article about NASA's future). _This story is real._
> *Feeling the pressure of mounting investigations launched by citizen activists concerning alien structures and artifacts on the Moon and Mars, the US National Aeronautics and Space Administration has made a bold and incredible move: NASA has announced No-Fly Zones on the Moon.*
> 
> Although the space agency claims the purpose of the No-Fly Zones are to preserve and protect the historic landing sites of the Apollo astronauts, some question why the zones happen to include regions where heavy attention has been focused—areas where purported alien technology is lying scattered across the lunar soil.
> 
> 
> 
> _An alleged alien artifact photographed near an Apollo landing site._ [From website *Over the Moon*]
> 
> According to official archives more than three dozen Lunar historical sites exist. It may be more than coincidence that many of the strange anomalies and structures are near, or in the same region as, all the Apollo landing and early Lunar space probe sites like Surveyor.
> 
> 
> 
> _Photo taken by LRO of a large artificial structure at_ _Rima Hadley not far from where Apollo 15 landed._
> 
> A portion of the NASA statement declares: _Apollo 11 and 17 sites [shall] remain off-limits, with ground-travel buffers of 75 metres and 225 meters from each respective lunar lander_. [Science journal reported the full guidelines.]
> 
> 
> 
> _Aerial view of alleged complex at Gassendi Crater._
> 
> Despite the pronouncement, international attorneys do not believe the space agency has the authority to enforce such a proclamation, nor claim any regions offbounds by nature of “U.S. government property on the moon.” They argue that the United Nations 1967 Outer Space Treaty takes precedence and that no nation can lay claim to any portion of the Moon.
> 
> 
> 
> _Apollo 12: Photo taken by NASA's Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter Camera (LROC)._
> 
> Despite that, NASA is desperate other countries will abide by its announcement—after all, more than 40 years of cover-up is at stake as well as the reputation and future funding of the currently beleagured agency.
> 
> 
> 
> _One of the many structures that just 'happens' to be in the No-Fly Zone._
> 
> While NASA takes pains that it's only doing this to protect astronauts' discarded food and feces, the argument itself is specious. The real purpose of the _No-Fly Zones_—alleged by some researchers—is to dissuade upcoming lunar missions by other countries including Japan, India and China from "spilling the beans" on what's really up there.
> 
> Space probes from the European Space Agency have already uncovered the fraud NASA perpetrated for decades about the real color of the Martian sky. [See: "The color of Mars"]
> 
> A Japanese lunar space probe uncovered astounding evidence of the alleged base that exists on the far side of the Moon. Some insiders swear that America has a secret military base on the Moon and present evidence to support their charge. [*See: Before It's News Claim: America has secret base on Moon*.]
> 
> Meanwhile, some NASA insiders have blown the whistle on the space agency and claim they have personally seen photographs and other evidence of artifacts, machinery—even cities—documented by robot and manned space mission from both the U.S. and former Soviet Union. [*See: Before It's News NASA whistleblower: Alien cities exist on Moon*.]
> 
> 
> 
> _Photo of alleged American Moonbase. Notice the structures in the *square-walled* 'crater.'_
> 
> Publicly, NASA says they were moved to act because of the announcement by Google's Lunar-X Prize. The Internet giant has created a contest awarding a monetary prize to the first private company that can land a robotic craft on the Moon, travel across the surface and transmit clear images. Google has sweetened the pot with the offer to add bonus money for a landing close to any of the Apollo sites.
> 
> Whether any of the up-and-coming spacefaring nations will abide by NASA's _No-Fly Zones_—especially if they discover hard evidence of ancient alien artifacts—is unknown. They probably won't abide by the NASA restrictions.
> 
> But unquestionably, the worried space agency desperately hopes they do.


 
Some neat photos you got there!


----------



## Lia

Cowboy said:


> _One of the many structures that just 'happens' to be in the No-Fly Zone._


 
Bob, the above shot interested me greatly, because before I lost so many files due to a mishap when transferring files from one compter to another, I use to have, in those archives, a video, supposedly shot by Armstrong during his time on the Moon. It was a silent video, of the interior of a dwelling on the Moon, and if legitimate, it was absolutely a breathtaking revelation for mankind.

The reason that I bring it up now is because the shot above, that you posted, is almost a replica for that building that I saw in the video. 'He' went thro all of its rooms, videoing all aspects of it.  It could be the same one. I will try to research that video, and post it here. It was said to have been leaked from NASA, The video, and at the time I had my doubts; but seeing that picture absolutely changes my perception of it now.

However, not to disrupt the present theme in the thread just at this time, but I thought that this video below was extremely interesting, and so I've added it. Regrets and apologies to the viewers if its already been posted...


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4B_OdOR4Ws"]Ancient Aliens - Underground Aliens - {s02e04} Full Length      - YouTube[/ame]


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## Cowboy

I beleive this may be the video you are refering to Lia , there is a better longer version out there but I cant seem to find it right now. 

  There was some speculation this might have been a hoax, but thats no big surprise and of coarse there was never any proof I am aware of supporting it was a hoax. 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWkGTJEK0Mc&feature=player_embedded"]Ancient Structure On The Moon Filmed By Armstrong, 1969      - YouTube[/ame]


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## Lia

Yes, thats the one Bob, altho the one I had was much clearer; maybe NASA had cleaned it up, or whatever, or, maybe I just have 'enhanced my memory' of the actual video, and it just seemd to be clearer from that distance in time. I believe I might have posted it in another UFO/Alien thread by you... not sure now, it was earlier in the year tho.

There is no question however, that that is not a natural formation. The 'dwelling?' was constructed by intelligent design, albeit it seems to be rather primitive. But the apertures were clearly designed as windows, imho. Eerie, but immensely interesting. Thanks for finding it for me.


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## Cowboy

Just ran across this article and thought some folks might find it interesting . Haven't had a chance to research it yet but sure looks like things are getting closer to disclosure at least in some parts of the world. 

*Mayan Documentary Will Show Evidence of Alien Contact, Says Mexico (Exclusive)*


http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/26/idUS333894436320110926

A new documentary about Mayan civilization will provide evidence of extraterrestrial contact with the ancient culture, according to a Mexican government official and the film's producer.
"Revelations of the Mayans 2012 and Beyond," currently in production, will claim the Mayans had contact with extraterrestrials, producer Raul Julia-Levy revealed to TheWrap.
"Mexico will release codices, artifacts and significant documents with evidence of Mayan and extraterrestrial contact, and all of their information will be corroborated by archaeologists," said Julia-Levy, son of actor Raul Julia. 
In a release to TheWrap, Luis Augusto Garcia Rosado, the minister of tourism for the Mexican state of Campeche, said new evidence has emerged "of contact between the Mayans and extraterrestrials, supported by translations of certain codices, which the government has kept secure in underground vaults for some time."
He also spoke, in a phone conversation, of "landing pads in the jungle that are 3,000 years old."
Raul-Julia claims there is proof that the Mayans had intended to lead the planet for thousands of years, but were forced to escape after an invasion by "men of dark intentions," leaving behind evidence of an advanced race. 
"The Mexican government is not making this statement on their own -- everything we say, we're going to back it up," he said. 
The film will be directed by Juan Carlos Rulfo, who won the Humanitas Prize for "Those Who Remain" in 2009 and the Sundance Grand Jury Prize for International Documentary for "In the Pit" in 2006. Juan Diego Rodriguez Gonzalez will serve as the Guatemalan executive producer, and Eduardo Vertiz as the Mexican executive producer.
And yes, they expect people to take this seriously, because the messages he plans to impart are crucial to human survival, Julia-Levy insisted.

When Julia-Levy, producer Ed Elbert and co-producer Sheila McCarthy announced the Mexican cooperation with their documentary to TheWrap in August, they were circumspect about claims of alien contact, with Julia-Levy admitting he'd been ordered not to say anything about it.
Also read: Mayan Secrets to Be Revealed by Mexican Government in 2012 Doc
Also for that article, Rosado brushed off a question about alient contact and said his country wa simply offering the filmmakers' access to previously unexplored sections of a Mayan site at Calakmul (left).
Now, not only has Rosado changed his tune, but the Guatemalan government has joined the project, as well, giving access to artifacts and newly discovered prophecies
While the Guatemalan government is not offering information about aliens, it has joined Mexico in supporting the project. "Guatemala, like Mexico, home to the ancient yet advanced Mayan civilization … has also kept certain provocative archeological discoveries classified, and now believes that it is time to bring forth this information in the new documentary," Guatemala's minister of tourism, Guillermo Novielli Quezada, said in a statement.
He said the country was working with filmmakers "for the good of mankind."
Raul-Julia claims that the order to cooperate came directly from the country's president, Alvaro Colom Caballero.
Guatemala is the site of a large number of pre-Columbian Mayan settlements in the Mirador Basin, including the extensive and highly organized city of El Mirador (detail, left; exterior on previous page).
In a curious aspect of the new announcement: Guatemalan minister Quezada is quoted as referring to “'Mirador,' the largest pyramid in the world." 
But Mirador is not the name of a pyramid. It's the name of the entire settlement, which includes several pyramids, the largest of which is La Danta -- a fact one would expect the Guatemalan minister to know.  
"Revelations of the Mayans 2012 and Beyond" begins shooting on Nov. 15 and is due for a theatrical release in late 2012, before the end of the Mayan calendar.
While doomsday scenarios focus on the calendar ending on Dec. 21, 2012, many scholars point out that it simply resets for another 5,126-year cycle on that date.
(El Mirador photos by E. Hernandez/courtesy of fares de Guatemala)
Related Articles:  Mayan Secrets to Be Revealed by Mexican Government in '2012' Doc


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## Cowboy

This is an older very interesting video of recorded talks between several different airline pilots and the control towers . Also later in the video some interesting discussions with DR Richard Haines a NASA research scientist about some other well documented sightings . 


UFO Documentary Real BlackBox Pilot recourding

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEYdIhwSsDM"]UFO Documentary Real BlackBox Pilot recourding - YouTube[/ame]


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## Lia

Very interesting find Bob...


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## fogtender

That was a neat clip!


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## Cowboy

Here is the newest episode of Ancient Aliens for anyone thats following the series. I posted it straight from Utube so you can watch the full show without having to go to the main menu where its split in 3 parts. 

Ancient Aliens season 3 episode 11 - Aliens and the Founding Fathers Full Length HD s03e11 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6APGZpMdcAY&feature=player_embedded"]Ancient Aliens season 3 episode 11 - Aliens and the Founding Fathers Full Length HD s03e11      - YouTube[/ame]


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## Cowboy

I'm sure most of you know of Bob Lazar, but for those of you who don't, Bob is a guy who claims to have worked at S4(section 4) - a separate division of Area 51 - on reverse engineering alien technology and in particular, UFO's.
He claims to have seen 9 different craft and in his interviews provides some insight into the propulsion methods used.
*Education* - from wikipedia
Lazar claims to hold degrees from the California Institute of Technology and Massachusetts Institute of Technology. In 1993, the Los Angeles Times looked into his background and found there was no evidence to support those claims. Stanton Friedman was only able to verify that Lazar took electronics courses in the late 1970s at Pierce Junior College. His educational and professional background cannot be verified -- a fact he attributes to government deletion of records.
*Scientific Research* - from wikipedia
Lazar first jumped on the media map in 1982 in the Los Alamos Monitor. The article titled "LA MAN JOINS THE JET SET - AT 200 MILES AN HOUR" was about a jet car that Lazar had created and worked on for years with help from a NASA researcher. The car was built from a jet engine modified and placed on an existing car model. It is also important to note that the article noted Lazar as "a physicist at the Los Alamos Meson Physics Facility", as it is one media article that puts Robert on the map as a physicist.
In November 1989, Lazar appeared in a special interview with investigative reporter George Knapp on Las Vegas TV station KLAS to discuss his purported employment at S-4. In his interview with Knapp, Lazar said he first thought the saucers were secret terrestrial aircraft whose test flights must have been responsible for many UFO reports. Gradually, on closer examination and from having been shown multiple briefing documents, Lazar came to the conclusion that the discs were of extraterrestrial origin. In his filmed testimony Lazar explains how this impression first hit him after he boarded one craft being studied and examined its interior.
For the propulsion of the studied vehicles, Bob Lazar claims that the atomic Element 115 served as a nuclear fuel. Element 115 (nicknamed 'Ununpentium' (Uup)) reportedly provided an energy source which would produce anti-gravity effects under proton bombardment along with antimatter for energy production. As the intense strong nuclear force field of Element 115's nucleus would be properly amplified, the resulting large-scale gravitational effect would be a distortion of the surrounding space-time continuum that would, in effect, greatly shorten the distance and travel time to a charted destination.
Lazar also claims that he was given introductory briefings describing the historical involvement by extraterrestrial beings with this planet for the past 100 000 years. The beings originate from the Zeta Reticuli 1 & 2 star system and are therefore referred to as Zeta Reticulans, popularly called 'Greys'.
Bob Lazar - wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Lazar
Stanton Friedman - wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanton_Friedman
Here is a picture illustrating the basic operation of a UFO.



And here are some videos of Bob Lazar - interviews and such.
*UFOs & Area 51: The Bob Lazar Video - Alien Technology*

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJolFbj8nc4&feature=player_embedded"]UFOs & Area 51: The Bob Lazar Video - Alien Technology      - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sl47icn1iEU&feature=player_embedded"]UFOs The Lazar Tape ... And Excerpts From The Government Bible      - YouTube[/ame]


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## Cowboy

Two more new episodes of "ancient aliens" . 

Episode 12 . [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfHyyc2h9m8&feature=player_embedded"]Ancient Aliens S03 E12 HD Full Length      - YouTube[/ame]

Episode 13 . http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=A4en28ZPK1c


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## Cowboy

Here is another very interesting night time video using a night vision camera . 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoR0izkByAI&feature=player_embedded"]Night Vision Triangle UFO      - YouTube[/ame]


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## fogtender

Tonight there was a show on called Worlds Strangest UFO Stories, I watched one episode tonight and set the record the series.  Found they are on YouTube already.  Pretty neat, there were a couple that seemed a bit far stretched, but others were pretty convincing!  All were interesting to say the least!


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUXD5ksEx_o&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]the worlds strangest ufo stories pt1      - YouTube[/ame]


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## Uncle Ed

Lia,
Thank you for per say "stirring the pot" and getting people to think and ask questions.
   If I may add some food for thought.

         If I remember correctly, the bible talks of a war in the heavens, and that the losers were "cast out". If god is a loving god would it make since that he cast his "children" into the fire pit or banish them to someplace where they couldn't do any harm (at least not right away). 

        If he is powerful enough to "create man in our own image" then he could change the outcasts DNA and keep them from returning and then watch them to ensure that they change their war making ways,( it's bred out of them, or at least don't let them spread it beyond that planet).

        For us to think that WE are the only intelligent life forms is .....insane!
  There are billions of stars out there, if only 1 % have a planet capable of supporting life, then who's to say that their not more advanced than we are?

     Add to the fact that they have been fired upon and haven't returned fire, speaks volumes in and of its self. Thank you for the video links.
Ed


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## Cowboy

Two more full episodes for those that have been following the Ancient Alien series on the history channel. 

Season 3 episode 13.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4en28ZPK1c&feature=player_embedded"]Ancient Aliens - Aliens And The Secret Code [S03E13]      - YouTube[/ame]

Season 3 episode 14. 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5TsA4GV7uc&feature=player_embedded"]Ancient Aliens - Aliens And The Undead [S03E14]      - YouTube[/ame]


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## fogtender

This was a three part series that was about hangar 18 at the Wright Patterson AFB in Ohio.  Was pretty interesting to watch!


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0YDbnIm76c&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]Hangar 18 The UFO Warehouse [1of3]      - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjJRX5tLttI&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]Hangar 18: The UFO Warehouse [2of3]      - YouTube[/ame]


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOa7IM9EWxE&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]Hangar 18: The UFO Warehouse [3of3]      - YouTube[/ame]


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## pirate_girl

I miss Lia.. on this board, I should say.
However, I have been keeping in contact with her via email.
She could add so much more to this thread, if'n she ever decides to come back.


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## Cowboy

fogtender said:


> This was a three part series that was about hangar 18 at the Wright Patterson AFB in Ohio. Was pretty interesting to watch!


 Great additions to the thread Foggy , thanks for posting.


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## fogtender

pirate_girl said:


> I miss Lia.. on this board, I should say.
> However, I have been keeping in contact with her via email.
> She could add so much more to this thread, if'n she ever decides to come back.




Well tell Lia to take care of herself until she decides to return!


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## Cowboy

For anyone that may be following this series 
here are the last two episodes of Ancient Aliens for season 3. Season 4 will begin in Febuary next year from my understanding. I haven't been able to find the FULL episode 16 video, as it just aired last night. 

You can go to the right side menu of you tube to find the other parts though. 



Ancient Aliens - Aliens, Gods And Heroes [S03E15]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kNrbCbYULWk


Ancient Aliens and the Creation of Man S03E16 pt1 
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8v7RhgjOOjU&feature=player_embedded"]Ancient Aliens and the Creation of Man S03E16 pt1 - YouTube[/ame]


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## fogtender

Seems Lia started this thread at just about the right time.  There seems to be a lot of shows on the air and information on the Internet over the last year than in years past.  Almost like it is being upscaled for some reason!

Saw two shows last night that I only got to see partially, but the were about sightings all over the world verses just the US and Europe.  If I can find the links, I will post them.  Even excerpts from Cloumbus's diary to the new World and sightings he Logged.


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## FrancSevin

I suspect Lia is onthe right side of logic here.  
Even if you consider the happenstance of the unlikely, that a random event seldom witnessed to the point of being assumed as "unique" somehow caused the Darwinian progression that led from ammino acids in a primordeal soup to mankind. Mathematicaly, we simply cannot be the only Sapient satient creatures in the universe.

We are only supposing that we or the only?

We are arrogantly assuming we must have been the first?

Just on the foundation of probability, that is a naive and narcissitic view.

However, having said all that, I think it a bit preposterous that we must inject the possibilty that our celestial interlopers were so bold as to interfere with our progress, both in technical and biological terms.

Have we been visited, Damm likely
Have we been geneticaly engineered?  Not likely
Have we been enlightened?  

Seems a rather silly excercise without some recognition allowed.  I say no.

It would seem far more likely that we are perhaps a second generation of civilized life on the planet.  And much of the "evidence" we see in structures and ancient art is a carryover of that time.


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## pirate_girl

fogtender said:


> Well tell Lia to take care of herself until she decides to return!


I did.
I don't think she fancies coming back anytime soon.

Why, I don't really know- but she knows I/we love her.
She has so much more to add here.
Lia.. please come back to the forums if you read this.


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## Lia

I'm sorry about the poor quality and size of some of the type guys; not my fault. Hope it doesn't mar anyone's interest in the story tho...   



> A gigantic object the size of a planet has appeared on astronomers' screens lurking near Mercury, with UFO hunters around the world wondering whether it’s an alien ship.
> 
> 
> The object appears from nowhere in a sequence of images of a coronal ejection from the Sun, taken by a Nasa telescope.
> As the flare races past Mercury, a huge round object appears next to it – but Nasa scientists insist that the object is merely a result of the way the images are processed.
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2071099/Is-alien-spacecraft-parked-Mercury.html#ixzz1g4qfhB7n






> However, experts say that there is no alien race hiding away in our solar system.


 
Really? And, they are experts on Alien Life? Which Alien Life? Can we see their evidence, sources, research files?

Nah… I thought not.




> ‘It’s imaging processing that they haven’t got their heads around. No way could it be an alien spaceship the size of Mercury because Mercury is the size of our moon and we would know about it.’


 


Of course you would, and, you’d tell us all about it, wouldn’t you.

Here’s the you-tube video:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X96xI1gLdQ&feature=player_embedded"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X96xI1gLdQ&feature=player_embedded[/ame]


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## fogtender

Lia said:


> Here’s the you-tube video:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X96xI1gLdQ&feature=player_embedded


 
That was very interesting, you can clearly see the hot gases engulfing something that wasn't visible until it passed and then lit it up like a flare. 

We think were are pretty hot stuff having a "Stealth" plane, that is invisible to radar (as we know it) and to have "something" that can go invisible to light as we know it makes them a lot farther ahead than we can imagine. Course hiding behind a planet that is pretty much a fireball 24/7 is even more amazing, but that would be some kind of normal event there!

Very good find! Thanks Lia!


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