# Like Edward Snowden, Benjamin Franklin Was Called a Traitor For Informing the People



## Bamby

Benjamin Franklin Was Called a Traitor For Informing the People About the Actions of its Government

The Washington Times notes:



> In  1773, Benjamin Franklin leaked confidential information by releasing  letters written by then Lt. Governor of Massachusetts Thomas Hutchinson  and his secretary Andrew Oliver to Thomas Whatley, an assistant to the  British prime minister.
> 
> The letters contained opinions on how the British government should  respond to colonial unrest over the Townsend Acts and other unpopular  policies. Hutchinson suggested that it was impossible for the colonists  to enjoy the same rights as subjects living in England and that “an  abridgement of what are called English liberties” might be necessary.
> 
> The content of the letters was damaging to the British government.   Franklin was dismissed as colonial Postmaster General and endured an  hour-long censure from British Solicitor General Alexander Wedderburn.
> 
> *Like Snowden, Franklin was called a traitor for informing the people about the actions of its government*. As Franklin’s biographer H.W. Brands writes;
> 
> “For an hour he hurled invective at Franklin, branding him a liar, a  thief, the instigator of the insurrection in Massachusetts, an outcast  from the company of all honest men, an ingrate whose attack on   Hutchinson betrayed nothing less than a desire to seize the governor’s  office for himself. So slanderous was Wedderburn’s diatribe that no  London paper would print it.”
> 
> Tyrants slandering patriots is nothing new. History decided that  Franklin was a patriot. It was not so kind to the Hutchinsons and  Wedderburns.
> 
> History will decide who the patriots were in the 21st century as well.


Ray McGovern – a 27-year CIA veteran, who chaired National Intelligence  Estimates and personally delivered intelligence briefings to Presidents  Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush, their Vice Presidents, Secretaries  of State, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and many other senior government  officials- agrees:



> *Like Edward Snowden, Franklin was called a traitor for whistleblowing the truth about what the government was doing*


Indeed, while Snowden is treated as a traitor by the fatcats and elites, he is considered a _hero_ by the American public and members of the Executive, Legislative and Judicial branches of government have all _praised_ the debate on spying which Snowden’s leaks started.


And experts say that the type of spying the NSA is doing is _exactly_ the kind of thing which King George imposed on the American colonists … which led to the Revolutionary War.


And what does the fact that some officials within the American government consider the Founding Fathers to be *terrorists* say about the current state of affairs?

George Washington's blog


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## FrancSevin

Hardly comparable. And certainly not by that standard 

franklin didn't leave the country and go live with the enemy.

Jesus brought the truth to the people also. Neither Snowden or Franklin compare.


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## Bamby

FrancSevin said:


> Hardly comparable. And certainly not by that standrd
> 
> franklin didn't leave the country and go live with the enemy.



Fact is he did in fact leave the country. Franklin in reality was a loyal British subject until subjected to circumstances that turned him around. Fact is maybe he was more like Snowden than not... *

From Subject to Citizen - The Political Transformation of Benjamin Franklin

*In 1757 Benjamin Franklin  arrived in London  a British gentleman of  the Empire – a loyal subject to His Majesty the  King.  He departed in  March 1775 a radical republican, a man dedicated to  separating his  country of birth from its motherland.  How did Franklin arrive at that  end?  How and why  did he transform from loyal subject of a crown to  citizen of a republic?


Franklin’s  initial response to parliamentary  legislation toward the American colonies was  moderate and he attempted  to bridge the differences between the sides and  explain one to the  other.  When parliament tried to raise revenue to  offset losses during  the Seven Years War through the 1764 Sugar Act, Franklin’s  response to  Americans was that they should work harder to offset that new  tax.  Yet  he also issued a cautionary note to British leaders that too  heavy tax  burdens on Americans could only, in the long-run, hurt imperial  trade.


Franklin  initially accepted the 1765 Stamp Act  and acquired for his Pennsylvania  friend, John Hughes, the royal  position of stamp commissioner.  In this  case, Franklin badly misread  opinion in America.  



Riots occurred throughout the colonies due to the  imposition of this internal  tax, and even Franklin’s Philadelphia  home  was the scene of protests.


Standing before the House of  Commons in 1766 on  the issue of repealing the Stamp Act, Franklin reversed his  acceptance  of the tax and requested repeal.  When indeed parliament did  repeal the  Stamp Act, Franklin saw  this as evidence that the Empire did work well  as a political unit and that  American interests did have a legitimate  voice in imperial governance.


Franklin’s  standing among British leaders and  his own view of America’s  future within the British Empire began to   change with his January 1771 meeting with Lord Hillsborough, then  Secretary of  State for the Colonies.  Hillsborough refused to accept  Franklin’s  diplomatic credentials as agent for Massachusetts  because  they were given by the Massachusetts  assembly and not the Royal  Governor.  This was the first of many snubs Franklin  was to receive on  his road to republicanism.


The most spectacular  miscalculation Franklin  made and the  one which was his turning point to rebellion, was the  Hutchison Affair.*   In 1772 an anonymous source gave Franklin  letters  written by Massachusetts Royal Governor Thomas Hutchison.  These   letters from Hutchison to London authorities  suggested the curtailment  of English liberties for Massachusetts citizens in order to squash   growing unrest.  Franklin sent these  letters confidentially  to  dissident leaders in Massachusetts  as proof that the threat to liberty  did not emanate from London, but from in-country authorities.   When the  letters were made public and Franklin  admitted to having sent the  letters to Massachusetts,  he was called before the Privy Council where  Solicitor General Alexander  Wedderburn publicly humiliated Franklin.  *


On January 29, 1774, Franklin  entered the  Cockpit and stood before the Privy Council a humbled but still  loyal  subject of the King.  He left Whitehall  that day humiliated, and a  transformed revolutionary.


He made once last attempt at  reconciliation,  working with Pitt, Lord Chatham, on legislation that would  reconcile  the American colonies to parliament.  When that legislation  failed in  February 1775, Franklin  knew all hope was lost.  Benjamin Franklin  departed London  on March 20, 1775, sailing home to Philadelphia where  he  joined the Second Continental Congress as revolutionary  sage and  editor to Thomas Jefferson and the Declaration of Independence.


By Dr. Steve Neiheisel of  St. Mary’s University in Texas


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## FrancSevin

Bamby said:


> Fact is he did in fact leave the country. Franklin in reality was a loyal British subject until subjected to circumstances that turned him around. Fact is maybe he was more like Snowden than not...
> 
> *From Subject to Citizen - The Political Transformation of Benjamin Franklin*
> 
> In 1757 Benjamin Franklin arrived in London a British gentleman of the Empire – a loyal subject to His Majesty the King. He departed in March 1775 a radical republican, a man dedicated to separating his country of birth from its motherland. How did Franklin arrive at that end? How and why did he transform from loyal subject of a crown to citizen of a republic?
> 
> Franklin’s initial response to parliamentary legislation toward the American colonies was moderate and he attempted to bridge the differences between the sides and explain one to the other. When parliament tried to raise revenue to offset losses during the Seven Years War through the 1764 Sugar Act, Franklin’s response to Americans was that they should work harder to offset that new tax. Yet he also issued a cautionary note to British leaders that too heavy tax burdens on Americans could only, in the long-run, hurt imperial trade.
> 
> 
> Franklin initially accepted the 1765 Stamp Act and acquired for his Pennsylvania friend, John Hughes, the royal position of stamp commissioner. In this case, Franklin badly misread opinion in America.
> 
> 
> 
> Riots occurred throughout the colonies due to the imposition of this internal tax, and even Franklin’s Philadelphia home was the scene of protests.
> 
> 
> Standing before the House of Commons in 1766 on the issue of repealing the Stamp Act, Franklin reversed his acceptance of the tax and requested repeal. When indeed parliament did repeal the Stamp Act, Franklin saw this as evidence that the Empire did work well as a political unit and that American interests did have a legitimate voice in imperial governance.
> 
> 
> Franklin’s standing among British leaders and his own view of America’s future within the British Empire began to change with his January 1771 meeting with Lord Hillsborough, then Secretary of State for the Colonies. Hillsborough refused to accept Franklin’s diplomatic credentials as agent for Massachusetts because they were given by the Massachusetts assembly and not the Royal Governor. This was the first of many snubs Franklin was to receive on his road to republicanism.
> 
> 
> The most spectacular miscalculation Franklin made and the one which was his turning point to rebellion, was the Hutchison Affair.* In 1772 an anonymous source gave Franklin letters written by Massachusetts Royal Governor Thomas Hutchison. These letters from Hutchison to London authorities suggested the curtailment of English liberties for Massachusetts citizens in order to squash growing unrest. Franklin sent these letters confidentially to dissident leaders in Massachusetts as proof that the threat to liberty did not emanate from London, but from in-country authorities. When the letters were made public and Franklin admitted to having sent the letters to Massachusetts, he was called before the Privy Council where Solicitor General Alexander Wedderburn publicly humiliated Franklin. *
> 
> 
> On January 29, 1774, Franklin entered the Cockpit and stood before the Privy Council a humbled but still loyal subject of the King. He left Whitehall that day humiliated, and a transformed revolutionary.
> 
> 
> He made once last attempt at reconciliation, working with Pitt, Lord Chatham, on legislation that would reconcile the American colonies to parliament. When that legislation failed in February 1775, Franklin knew all hope was lost. Benjamin Franklin departed London on March 20, 1775, sailing home to Philadelphia where he joined the Second Continental Congress as revolutionary sage and editor to Thomas Jefferson and the Declaration of Independence.
> 
> 
> By Dr. Steve Neiheisel of St. Mary’s University in Texas


 
PALEEEESE. We all know the history of Ben Franklin.  He didn't leave
for the purpose of hiding from the authorities after spilling state secrets. He actually became a diplomat exchanging communications to both England and France from the emerging Colonial nation of the 13 states.

And all of the things listed here show he was dramatically different than Snowden who has done nothing but hide in Russia.

You're readers are smarter than that,,,,and you're better than that. Bamby


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## fogtender

FrancSevin said:


> PALEEEESE. We all know the history of Ben Franklin. He didn't leave
> for the purpose of hiding from the authorities after spilling state secrets. He actually became a diplomat exchanging communications to both England and France from the emerging Colonial nation of the 13 states.
> 
> And all of the things listed here show he was dramatically different than Snowden who has done nothing but hide in Russia.
> 
> You're readers are smarter than that,,,,and you're better than that. Bamby


 
I don't think of Snowden as a hero persay, but he did flip rocks over and put light in dark places.  Most of the people I know think very highly of him, as do I.  

But as far as him leaving America after releasing the data...  I think if he hadn't, he would still be in prision awaiting trial rotting away.  So I don't really have a beef with his leaving the U.S. for self preservation.  The Government has no business spying on free people unless they did something that directly warrants it, and it is approved by a real Judge in a real Court, not this "Secret" crap we are seeing now.


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## mla2ofus

All this NSA, IRS bullshit smells of the German SS!!
                               Mike


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## FrancSevin

fogtender said:


> I don't think of Snowden as a hero persay, but he did flip rocks over and put light in dark places. Most of the people I know think very highly of him, as do I.
> 
> But as far as him leaving America after releasing the data... I think if he hadn't, he would still be in prision awaiting trial rotting away. So I don't really have a beef with his leaving the U.S. for self preservation. The Government has no business spying on free people unless they did something that directly warrants it, and it is approved by a real Judge in a real Court, not this "Secret" crap we are seeing now.


 

To what nations did the man go with sensitive information in his luggage?
Given history and current relations, Snowden would have been safe as a deserter in Canada. Instead, I believe him to be a traitor now hiding in Russia.

The beans he spilled may be useful. But there are plenty of organizations who could have facilitated his safety and published it right here in the USA.

Meanwhile the comparison of him to any of our Founders is ridiculous and insulting to their memory. Keep in mind he told our enemiesfirst. Just as Benedict Arnold told the British about Fort West Point. For the record, about one third of the colonists thought *he* was right at the time.


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## Danang Sailor

Franc, there are some potentially unfavorable things that can be said about Franklin, but who among us can say that he has no
such things in his past?  Certainly not I!

And trying to compare Snowden to Franklin is like comparing apples and stove bolts; ridiculous on the face of it!!


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## FrancSevin

Danang Sailor said:


> Franc, there are some potentially unfavorable things that can be said about Franklin, but who among us can say that he has no
> such things in his past? Certainly not I!
> 
> And trying to compare Snowden to Franklin is like comparing apples and stove bolts; ridiculous on the face of it!!


 
I understand DS.

 Ben Franklin, along with most all of thether Founders, were flawed men. 

I do not believe I have made a saint of Ben Franklin. 
All I am saying is this. Please, let us not rationalize beyond reason and make a Ben Franklin out of Snowden.


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## Danang Sailor

FrancSevin said:


> I understand DS.
> 
> Ben Franklin, along with most all of thether Founders, were flawed men.
> 
> I do not believe I have made a saint of Ben Franklin.
> All I am saying is this. *Please, let us not rationalize beyond reason and make a Ben Franklin out of Snowden.*




As noted in my last sentence.


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## fogtender

FrancSevin said:


> To what nations did the man go with sensitive information in his luggage?
> Given history and current relations, Snowden would have been safe as a deserter in Canada. Instead, I believe him to be a traitor now hiding in Russia.
> 
> The beans he spilled may be useful. But there are plenty of organizations who could have facilitated his safety and published it right here in the USA.
> 
> Meanwhile the comparison of him to any of our Founders is ridiculous and insulting to their memory. Keep in mind he told our enemiesfirst. Just as Benedict Arnold told the British about Fort West Point. For the record, about one third of the colonists thought *he* was right at the time.


 
At this point, I don't care where Snowden went, we have more traitors here than anywhere he went in our own Government.

Our beloved Government has been lying to us for decades now, and it took someone like Snowden to bring that darkness to the light. 

Politicions (including Obama) now claim that they are checking into the aligations as if they never knew about them to start with, which clearly is a flat out lie.

Had it not been for Snowden, we would have been totally ignorant of what the Government is doing and spying on our people that clearly have done nothing but be a good citizen of the United States. The "Secret Court" system to sign bogus warrants are a farce and not legal under the Constatution, but are being hailed as such by the folks that are suppose to be looking out for us, not at us.

Snowden isn't a saint and I don't aggree to all that he did, but he did all of us a service by showing what traitors we have in our government that are distroying America from within. 

Now as an added bonus, all our medical history is going to be on the web, in a system that is totally inept at even getting people to sign up, much less provide a real service. 

We are in 1930's Germany and it won't end well.... Our own NSA would make the SS cry...


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## Bamby

fogtender said:


> I don't think of Snowden as a hero persay, but he did flip rocks over and put light in dark places.  Most of the people I know think very highly of him, as do I.
> 
> But as far as him leaving America after releasing the data...  I think if he hadn't, he would still be in prision awaiting trial rotting away.  So I don't really have a beef with his leaving the U.S. for self preservation.  The Government has no business spying on free people unless they did something that directly warrants it, and it is approved by a real Judge in a real Court, not this "Secret" crap we are seeing now.





We as citizens don't have far to look as to who our "real enemy's are" they aren't a foreign nation or hiding or overseas or even Muslims. Our biggest threat is ourselves and the sorry bunch of traitors that somehow always get elected to represent us.


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## FrancSevin

fogtender said:


> At this point, I don't care where Snowden went, we have more traitors here than anywhere he went in our own Government.
> 
> Our beloved Government has been lying to us for decades now, and it took someone like Snowden to bring that darkness to the light.
> 
> Politicions (including Obama) now claim that they are checking into the aligations as if they never knew about them to start with, which clearly is a flat out lie.
> 
> Had it not been for Snowden, we would have been totally ignorant of what the Government is doing and spying on our people that clearly have done nothing but be a good citizen of the United States. The "Secret Court" system to sign bogus warrants are a farce and not legal under the Constatution, but are being hailed as such by the folks that are suppose to be looking out for us, not at us.
> 
> Snowden isn't a saint and I don't aggree to all that he did, but he did all of us a service by showing what traitors we have in our government that are distroying America from within.
> 
> Now as an added bonus, all our medical history is going to be on the web, in a system that is totally inept at even getting people to sign up, much less provide a real service.
> 
> We are in 1930's Germany and it won't end well.... Our own NSA would make the SS cry...


 
I disagree. _"Had it not been for Snowden???"_ 

That's like sayin' if it had not been for Pearl Harbor we wouldn't have known about the Japanese imperialism in the Far East.

Come on guys. This spying on Americans was well known. Any ideas as to how many Americans were working at the NSA?

Read old posts here and on other political discussion sites. What Snowden revealed was spoken of frequently long before his name became a household word. And the subject was always spoofed as conspiracy theories. But anyone with a pulse could see the truth if they wanted to. Most of us just wouldn't admit to ourselves tht it was true. Just like the atrocities in Asia, and Europe.


Like Corporal Manning telling the world military secrets and plans, Snowden simply made it impossible for the left to deny them. Even though they still do. And at the risk of calling Manning a hero, HE IS ROTTING IN JAIL.

Snowden's actions, the route he chose to be _heroic_, put him in Russia where Putin now has him on a chain. And Putin has no trouble bringing him out to tease the USA before the whole world. 

I doubt there will be a statue in honor of Snowden in our capital.


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## FrancSevin

Bamby said:


> We as citizens don't have far to look as to who our "real enemy's are" they aren't a foreign nation or hiding or overseas or even Muslims. Our biggest threat is ourselves and the sorry bunch of traitors that somehow always get elected to represent us.
> 
> View attachment 69714


 

These words are undeniable Bamby.  And since our nation's fragile founding, they have always been true.  But for the courage of men of good will, the Republic would have suffered demise at any time through out it's 237 years.

Liberty is inconvenient.  It must be maintained by vigilance, hard work, and sacrifice.  Many who do so spend time in our prisons.  Martin L King comes to mind.


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## fogtender

FrancSevin said:


> I disagree. _"Had it not been for Snowden???"_
> 
> That's like sayin' if it had not been for Pearl Harbor we wouldn't have known about the Japanese imperialism in the Far East.
> 
> Come on guys. This spying on Americans was well known. Any ideas as to how many Americans were working at the NSA?
> 
> Read old posts here and on other political discussion sites. What Snowden revealed was spoken of frequently long before his name became a household word. And the subject was always spoofed as conspiracy theories. But anyone with a pulse could see the truth if they wanted to. Most of us just wouldn't admit to ourselves tht it was true. Just like the atrocities in Asia, and Europe.
> 
> 
> Like Corporal Manning telling the world military secrets and plans, Snowden simply made it impossible for the left to deny them. Even though they still do. And at the risk of calling Manning a hero, HE IS ROTTING IN JAIL.
> 
> Snowden's actions, the route he chose to be _heroic_, put him in Russia where Putin now has him on a chain. And Putin has no trouble bringing him out to tease the USA before the whole world.
> 
> I doubt there will be a statue in honor of Snowden in our capital.


 

The fact that we are now talking about this proves a point, Snowden brought the sheeple of America out of their haze and are now aware of how corrupt the Government has become. He can stay in Russia for all I care, but he let the dragons out of the box, and now the next election cycle will be very interesting to say the least...

I certainly wouldn't want to be him, but at the same time in thirty years, he may well have a lot of statues of him around after the dust settles.

Even Benjamin was concidered a traitor by the British and would have hung him had they had the chance.  Even he has statues all over the place....


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## FrancSevin

fogtender said:


> The fact that we are now talking about this proves a point, Snowden brought the sheeple of America out of their haze and are now aware of how corrupt the Government has become. He can stay in Russia for all I care, but he let the dragons out of the box, and now the next election cycle will be very interesting to say the least...
> 
> I certainly wouldn't want to be him, but at the same time in thirty years, he may well have a lot of statues of him around after the dust settles.
> 
> Even Benjamin was concidered a traitor by the British and would have hung him had they had the chance. Even he has statues all over the place....


 


We are talking about what he released, yes.  That makes him a whistle blower at best. A traitor at worst.  But it does not make him a Hero.

And I doubt Ben Franklin has any statues in England. By your analogy Hong Kong and Russia may honor Snowden.  But not the USA.


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## fogtender

FrancSevin said:


> We are talking about what he released, yes. That makes him a whistle blower at best. A traitor at worst. But it does not make him a Hero.
> 
> And I doubt Ben Franklin has any statues in England. By your analogy Hong Kong and Russia may honor Snowden. But not the USA.


 
Nope, I doubt that Snowden will have any real accolades right now, but in due time as people get to realize what he did, they will come to like him more and more, as I said, it may take decades.  But he will be a hero in history.


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## FrancSevin

fogtender said:


> Nope, I doubt that Snowden will have any real accolades right now, but in due time as people get to realize what he did, they will come to like him more and more, as I said, it may take decades. But he will be a hero in history.


 
I cannot deny the sheer possibility of your prediction.  At least half our nation still believes Obama is a patriot.


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## squerly

FrancSevin said:


> To what nations did the man go with sensitive information in his luggage?


Curious as to what information you think he gave them that they don't have already?


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## FrancSevin

squerly said:


> Curious as to what information you think he gave them that they don't have already?


 
I'm sure the Chineese and the Russians respected our Sveriegnty and did not aquire anything Snowden had in his "luggage."
The both extended their hospitality to him cause they are such good guys.

Truth is, we do not know. Only NSA knows and they aren't talking.


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## squerly

FrancSevin said:


> I'm sure the Chineese and the Russians respected our Sveriegnty and did not aquire anything Snowden had in his "luggage."
> 
> 
> Truth is, we do not know. Only NSA knows and they aren't talking.


It's easy to hide stuff from the citizens, we want to believe our  government is our friend.  But it's unlikely Russia would wear the same  blinders, meaning I doubt Snowden gave them anything they didn't already  know.


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## FrancSevin

squerly said:


> It's easy to hide stuff from the citizens, we want to believe our government is our friend. But it's unlikely Russia would wear the same blinders, meaning I doubt Snowden gave them anything they didn't already know.


Tht simply is not a cofidence I can share with you.  Snowdenn had access to a lot of data.  Hes was supposedly and expert.  What he had in his possesion had value to countries that are not our friends.

There is no logic to the assumption he told them nothing beyond what he exposed to the public after he reached the relative safety of Hong Kong.


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## Kane

FrancSevin said:


> Tht simply is not a cofidence I can share with you.  Snowdenn had access to a lot of data.  Hes was supposedly and expert.  What he had in his possesion had value to countries that are not our friends.
> 
> There is no logic to the assumption he told them nothing beyond what he exposed to the public after he reached the relative safety of Hong Kong.


I dunno, gents.  My guess is, as a condition of asylum and getting out of the Moscow airport lounge, the Ruskies have a copy of every hard drive, DVD and thumb drive Snowden had on him.

The Ruskies have no Fourth Amedment.  But they do have an intelligence agency that probably already knows everything Snowden knows.  They know who shot Kennedy and where Obama was born.


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## squerly

Agreed that no good came from him giving Russia and China the goods.  But what's more scary than that (to me anyway) is so very few US citizens gave 2 winks about NSA gathering everyone's email, contact lists, cell phone conversation and God knows what else.  The people's silence and the silence of our so called "representatives" is astounding.  

I really don't know that we get back from here.  When the people quit caring there is no one else to save us.  I would have thought there would be protests in every city and especially in front of the white house.  But nothing.  So regardless of how you see Snowden, he just wasted his life proving to the government that they can do whatever they wish and that there is nobody to hold them accountable.


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## Kane

squerly said:


> Agreed that no good came from him giving Russia and China the goods.  But what's more scary than that (to me anyway) is so very few US citizens gave 2 winks about NSA gathering everyone's email, contact lists, cell phone conversation and God knows what else.  The people's silence and the silence of our so called "representatives" is astounding.
> 
> I really don't know that we get back from here.  When the people quit caring there is no one else to save us.  I would have thought there would be protests in every city and especially in front of the white house.  But nothing.  So regardless of how you see Snowden, he just wasted his life proving to the government that they can do whatever they wish and that there is nobody to hold them accountable.


Yeah, that's a shame squerly.  And you're right:  we don't come back once the people don't care.

If the progressives take the House and keep the Senate in 2014, fuck it, I'm moving to Costa Rica.  Being an expat has a nice ring to it.


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## FrancSevin

squerly said:


> Agreed that no good came from him giving Russia and China the goods. But what's more scary than that (to me anyway) is so very few US citizens gave 2 winks about NSA gathering everyone's email, contact lists, cell phone conversation and God knows what else. The people's silence and the silence of our so called "representatives" is astounding.
> 
> I really don't know that we get back from here. When the people quit caring there is no one else to save us. I would have thought there would be protests in every city and especially in front of the white house. But nothing. So regardless of how you see Snowden, he just wasted his life proving to the government that they can do whatever they wish and that there is nobody to hold them accountable.


 
I absolutely agree. And what you have described is exactly why I do not see a future with any memorial Statues in honor of Edward Snowden.


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## fogtender

Since it it clear that Snowden is good with computers, I would bet that the majority of the info that he has downloaded didn't go with him to China or Russia...  Yeah, I bet he had a lot, but the internet is now just too vast and there is way too many places on it where one can hide encripted files.  

It has already been stated that if something happened to him there would be a massive data release, like a poison pill you might say.  

Just to carry all that info around in ones laptop going to countries that aren't part of the "Good guy" system would bet he has his stuff secure elsewhere.

Hell, he could have just downloaded it all to a normal backup file server in a cloud system somewhere or on a site like Carbonite.

Time will tell.


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## Kane

FrancSevin said:


> I absolutely agree. And what you have described is exactly why I do not see a future with any memorial Statues in honor of Edward Snowden.


Well, the courts are beginning to rule that NSA super-secret domestic spying is unconstitutional, if not Orwellian, in direct violation of the 4th. Snowden will be vindicated not as a traitor, but as a true whistleblower. A true patriot. 

Some say Snowden should be named 2013 Man of the Year, maybe even honor him with a statue.

What say you?


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## waybomb

Patriot and hero.
Somebody has to defend the constitution; certainly our elected asshats do not.


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## 300 H and H

Kane said:


> Well, the courts are beginning to rule that NSA super-secret domestic spying is unconstitutional, if not Orwellian, in direct violation of the 4th. Snowden will be vindicated not as a traitor, but as a true whistleblower. A true patriot.
> 
> Some say Snowden should be named 2013 Man of the Year, maybe even honor him with a statue.
> 
> What say you?


 
This is bipartisan and very and clearly unconstitutional. I think you are exactly right!

Regards, Kirk


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## Glink

Hero? I don't think so; but not sure.  However I am damn glad he did it; and hope he lives a long and happy life.

As far as him leaving; probably the right move.  His chances of being treated fairly here were probably pretty low.

He lit a fuse that needed lit; and then got the hell away from the blast area.

Seems logical.


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## FrancSevin

Hero?  Nope, still not feelin' it.

Unless assigned to do so, Heroes don't sleep with the enemy.


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## Kane

FrancSevin said:


> Hero?  Nope, still not feelin' it.
> 
> Unless assigned to do so, Heroes don't sleep with the enemy.


Some suggest Snowden took the wrong approach, and should have simply brought his grievances before Congress under the protections afforded any other whistleblower.  

Well, that movie's been played before and it has never ended well.  Folks that have fought for the attention of Congress (particularly with issues of such gravity) are simply remanded to the dustbin of our national security bureaucracy, never to see the light of day ... or, in Snowden's case, somewhere even less enjoyable.

So, in the view of many, he took a route he felt certain would get the message to the Amerikan People, knowing full well it was at his own peril.

 Naive? Probably.  Gutsy?  You bet.  Are the Amerikan People listening? Yep.


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## FrancSevin

Kane said:


> Some suggest Snowden took the wrong approach, and should have simply brought his grievances before Congress under the protections afforded any other whistleblower.
> 
> Well, that movie's been played before and it has never ended well. Folks that have fought for the attention of Congress (particularly with issues of such gravity) are simply remanded to the dustbin of our national security bureaucracy, never to see the light of day ... or, in Snowden's case, somewhere even less enjoyable.
> 
> So, in the view of many, he took a route he felt certain would get the message to the Amerikan People, knowing full well it was at his own peril.
> 
> Naive? Probably. Gutsy? You bet. Are the Amerikan People listening? Yep.


 
The ends do not justify the means. Lee Harey Oswald woke our country up tothe fact that Camelot was a myth, a dangerous misconception that our nation was completely at peace. And that our secret service had niavely become complacent to the dangers to which they had allowed our President to be so vunerably exposed.

So given the justification used to annoint Snowden, is Lee Harvey Oswald a hero?

The world just buried a man who went to prison, and stayed there because he stubbornly believed he was moraly justified in his views.  Nelson mandella suffered and was eventualy justified in his postion against the governmet by his actions both before and after his release from political prison.  He suffered incarceration because of his moral beliefs.  Snowden ran to our eneimies.  Who willingly exploited him and the data he carried out of the country.

The have more reason to erect a statue to him than we.


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## Kane

FrancSevin said:


> The ends do not justify the means. Lee Harey Oswald woke our country up tothe fact that Camelot was a myth, a dangerous misconception that our nation was completely at peace. And that our secret service had niavely become complacent to the dangers to which they had allowed our President to be so vunerably exposed.
> 
> So given the justification used to annoint Snowden, is Lee Harvey Oswald a hero?
> 
> The world just buried a man who went to prison, and stayed there because he stubbornly believed he was moraly justified in his views.  Nelson mandella suffered and was eventualy justified in his postion against the governmet by his actions both before and after his release from political prison.  He suffered incarceration because of his moral beliefs.  Snowden ran to our eneimies.  Who willingly exploited him and the data he carried out of the country.
> 
> The have more reason to erect a statue to him than we.


All well and good, but the Amerikan people should not have to wait 27 years for the truth to come out about their own government's domestic surveillance misdeeds.

Neither should anyone be killed or made to disappear in exposing the truth. In confronting the dark powers of NSA and our CIA, Snowden risked both. As it worked out, he is alive and well in another country, negotiating to find amnesty in one that is warmer.


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## FrancSevin

Kane said:


> All well and good, but the Amerikan people should not have to wait 27 years for the truth to come out about their government's domestic surveillance misdeeds.


 

No argument there. But are you saying the only way for the truth to be exposed was for someone to tuck secrets under their arm and, with that as a barganing chip, head to the comfortable sanctuary of our eneimies?

Am I glad the secrets were exposed? Yes. But the way it was done was not worthy of hero status. It equates to a deathbed confession. Useful for the facts but hardly heroic.

Heroes generaly sacrifice greatly to acheive such status.

Breightbart stayed here and likely died for it. But, by comparison, his actions were heroic.


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## waybomb

Yes, the way Snowden did it seems to be the only way.

Have a better idea?

He did sacrifice greatly. He is no longer allowed home, and probably has a bullseye on his back for some CIA assassin to fill.


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## Kane

FrancSevin said:


> No argument there. But are you saying the only way for the truth to be exposed was for someone to tuck secrets under their arm and, with that as a barganing chip, head to the comfortable sanctuary of our eneimies?
> 
> Am I glad the secrets were exposed? Yes. But the way it was done was not worthy of hero status. It equates to a deathbed confession. Useful for the facts but hardly heroic.
> 
> Heroes generaly sacrifice greatly to acheive such status.
> 
> Breightbart stayed here and likely died for it. But, by comparison, his actions were heroic.


(see my edit above)

If Snowden had done as you suggest, he too would be dead or 'missing'. If he had begun exposing NSA anywhere within its grasp, on Amerikan soil or elsewhere, all that we would know of him is a one-paragraph obituary in a Hawaiian newspaper earlier this year.

My guess is he will end up on a beach in neutral Brazil, more like he had probably pictured when his patriotic saga began.


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