# WHAT IF 20 MILLION ILLEGAL ALIENS VACATED AMERICA?



## Doc

Got this in email, thought it was worth sharing:



> WHAT IF 20 MILLION ILLEGAL ALIENS VACATED AMERICA?
> 
> By Frosty Wooldridge
> October 29, 2007
> NewsWithViews.com
> 
> Tina Griego, journalist for the Denver Rocky Mountain News wrote a column titled, 'Mexican visitor's lament' -- 10/25/07.
> She interviewed Mexican journalist Evangelina Hernandez while visiting Denver last week. Hernandez said, 'They (illegal aliens) pay rent, buy groceries, buy clothes...what happens to your country's economy if 20 million people go away?'
> That's a good question - it deserves an answer. Over 80 percent of Americans demand secured borders and illegal migration stopped. But what would happen if all 20 million or more vacated America? The answers may surprise you!
> 
> In California, if 3.5 million illegal aliens moved back to Mexico, it would leave an extra $10.2 billion to spend on overloaded school systems, bankrupted hospitals and overrun prisons. It would leave highways cleaner, safer and less congested. Everyone could understand one another as Englsh became the dominate language again.
> 
> In Colorado, 500,000 illegal migrants, plus their 300,000 kids and grand-kids - would move back 'home,' mostly to Mexico. That would save Coloradans an estimated $2 billion (other experts say $7 BIL) annually in taxes that pay for schooling, medical, social-services and incarceration costs. It means 12,000 gang members would vanish out of Denver alone.
> Colorado would save more than $20 million in prison costs, and the terror that those 7,300 alien criminals set upon local citizens. Denver Officer Don Young and hundreds of Colorado victims would not have suffered death, accidents, rapes and other crimes by illegals.
> Denver Public Schools would not suffer a 67 percent drop out/flunk out rate via thousands of illegal alien students speaking 41 different languages. At least 200,000 vehicles would vanish from our gridlocked cities in Colorado.
> Denver's four percent unemployment rate would vanish as our working poor would gain jobs at a living wage.
> 
> In Florida, 1.5 million illegals would return the Sunshine State back to America, the rule of law and English.
> 
> In Chicago, Illinois, 2.1 million illegals would free up hospitals, schools, prisons and highways for a safer, cleaner and more crime-free experience.
> 
> If 20 million illegal aliens returned 'home,' the U.S. economy would return to the rule of law. Employers would hire legal American citizens at a living wage. Everyone would pay their fair share of taxes because they wouldn't be working off the books. That would result in an additional $401 billion in IRS income taxes collected annually, and an equal amount for local state and city coffers.
> No more push '1' for Spanish or '2' for English. No more confusion in American schools that now must content with over 100 languages that degrade the educational system for American kids. Our overcrowded schools would lose more than two million illegal alien kids at a cost of billions in ESL and free breakfasts and lunches.
> We would lose 500,000 illegal criminal alien inmates at a cost of more than $1.6 billion annually. That includes 15,000 MS-13 gang members who distribute $130 billion in drugs annually would vacate our country. In cities like L.A., 20,000 members of the '18th Street Gang' would vanish from our nation. No more Mexican forgery gangs for ID theft from Americans! No more foreign rapists and child molesters!
> Losing more than 20 million people would clear up our crowded highways and gridlock. Cleaner air and less drinking and driving American deaths by illegal aliens!
> 
> Drain on America's economy; taxpayers harmed, employers get rich
> Over $80 billion annually wouldn't return to their home countries by cash transfers. Illegal migrants earned half that money untaxed, which further drains America's economy - which currently suffers an $8.7 trillion debt.
> At least 400,000 anchor babies would not be born in our country, costing us $109 billion per year per cycle. At least 86 hospitals in California, Georgia and Florida would still be operating instead of being bankrupted out of existence because illegals pay nothing via the EMTOLA Act. Americans wouldn't suffer thousands of TB and hepatitis cases rampant in our country-brought in by illegals unscreened at our borders.
> Our cities would see 20 million less people driving, polluting and grid locking our cities. It would also put the 'progressives' on the horns of a dilemma; illegal aliens and their families cause 11 percent of our greenhouse gases.
> Over one million of Mexico's poorest citizens now live inside and along our border from Brownsville, Texas to San Diego, California in what the New York Times called, "colonias" or new neighborhoods. Trouble is, those living areas resemble Bombay and Calcutta where grinding poverty, filth, diseases, drugs, crimes, no sanitation and worse. They live without sewage, clean water, streets, electricity, roads or any kind of sanitation. The New York Times reported them to be America's new "Third World" inside our own country. Within 20 years, at their current growth rate, they expect 20 million residents of those colonias. (I've seen them personally in Texas and Arizona; it's sickening beyond anything you can imagine.) By enforcing our laws, we could repatriate them back to Mexico.
> 
> High integrity, ethical invitation
> We invite 20 million aliens to go home, fix their own countries and/or make a better life in Mexico. We invite a million people into our country legally more than all other countries combined annually. We cannot and must not allow anarchy at our borders, more anarchy within our borders and growing lawlessness at every level in our nation
> It's time to stand up for our country, our culture, our civilization and our way of life.
> 
> Interesting Statistics
> Just in case you missed this the last time around & believe those who say we need to have Illegal Aliens here to work at slave labor wages to help greedy businesses. Don't we have a minimum wage law?
> 
> Here's the "Snopes" for doubters:  http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/bankofamerica.asp
> 
> I hope the following 14 reasons are forwarded over and over again until they are read so many times that the reader gets sick of reading them.  I have included the URL's for verification of the following facts.
> 
> 1.  $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year.  http://tinyurlcom/zob77
> 
> 2.  $2.2 Billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens.  http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
> 
> 3.  $2.5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens.
> http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
> 
> 4.  $12 Billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary school education for children here illegally and they cannot speak a word of English!  http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.0.html
> 
> 5.  $17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies.
> http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
> 
> 6.  $3 Million Dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens.
> http://transcriptscnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
> 
> 7.  30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens.
> http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
> 
> 8.  $90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare & social services by the American taxpayers.
> http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html
> 
> 9.  $200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages are caused by the illegal aliens.
> http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
> 
> 10.  The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens.  In particular, their children are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US.
> http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html
> 
> 11.  During the year 2005, there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from terrorist countries.  Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroine and marijuana crossed into the   U.S. from the southern border.  Homeland Security Report:  http://tinyurl.com/t9sht
> 
> 12.  The National Policy Institute, "estimated that the total cost of  mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion, or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period."
> http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/PDF/deportation.pdf
> 
> 13.  In 2006, illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of origin.
> http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm
> 
> 14.  "The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration:  Nearly One Million Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants In The United States!"
> http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml
> 
> The total cost is a WHOPPING $338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR!!!
> 
> If this doesn't bother you, then just delete the message.  But, on the other hand, if it does raise the hair on the back of your neck, then forward it to every human in the country, including every representative in Washington, DC four times a week for a month.
> 
> Thank A Veteran for Your Freedom


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## RedRocker

I would have to mow my own yard, but no problem.


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## ddrane2115

not to mention that we could then take those that are on SSI and other gov't assistance that are NOT illegal and give them jobs doing this work.  yeah I know one that is...............cant work but sure can make babies and not pay child support on them, since his ONLY income is SSI.  

good post!


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## ddrane2115

RedRocker said:


> I would have to mow my own yard, but no problem.


 

LOL, I will come do it.  Lets see, 14000.00 tractor, divide by, why bother, 65.00 on the hour by the meter, of course there is travel fee, trailer fee, diesel fee..........

the American way!


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## Deadly Sushi

Kick their selfish law-breaking asses back to Burrito Land!  (not the hot chicks though)


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## paul webster

Can't believe there are people who actually believe all that you have posted, show just how stupid some americans are, you post all the bad they cause, why dont you list the good also and see how the scales of justice weigh out.................just a thought


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## mak2

Yea but, what about wage inflation and who would cook my steak at Appleby's?  The more I think about this topic the more complicated  it gets.  However there is no question about what is right and wrong.  All the illegals should be sent home or jailed because they are illegal.


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## paul webster

O.K. you must be either really ignorant or not informed... answer the following, where were your grandparents from ? and there parents ? then I will give you somethings to think about, or a scenario or two, or if you read my bio you will understand, remember there are two sides of every coin.......


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## mak2

paul webster said:


> O.K. you must be either really ignorant or not informed... answer the following, where were your grandparents from ? and there parents ? then I will give you somethings to think about, or a scenario or two, or if you read my bio you will understand, remember there are two sides of every coin.......



Well if you are talking to me, my grandparents or great grandparents came here legally. That was what I was trying to point out.  People cannot be allowed to start a new life and step one is break the law.  end of story.


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## REDDOGTWO

paul webster said:


> O.K. you must be either really ignorant or not informed... answer the following, where were your grandparents from ? and there parents ? then I will give you somethings to think about, or a scenario or two, or if you read my bio you will understand, remember there are two sides of every coin.......


 
My father was born in Russia, as were his parents and their parents, the parents before were born in Hungary and before that in Germany.  That is not the point on where they were born, the point being is that they came to this country in a legal manner.

Growing up, the language in the house was a mixture of Russian, German and English.  Back then there was no press 1 for English, 2 for German or 3 for Russian, there still is not.  The point being is that you had to assimilate into society or be left out.

The problem with America today is that we have hordes of people crossing the border illegally, taking advantage of the programs which costs the American taxpayer billions of dollars.

It does not matter why they are here or how they came here, the point is that they are here without the benefit of legal access, the same access that my forefathers sought before they came here.

These people that are here illegally should be sought out and sent home.  There is no question on how, why or where, send them home.


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## paul webster

And what do we do to the American coyotes who exploit and traffic these people in to the U.S.A. against there will for slave labor and prostitution, do we charge them with kidnapping even though the crime originated in another country ???


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## REDDOGTWO

Deadly Sushi said:


> Kick their selfish law-breaking asses back to Burrito Land!  (not the hot chicks though)


Sushi quit thinking with the wrong head. 

The law applies to all including the hot chicks, they should all be sent back to where they came from.

The next thing is the Burrito Land aspect of your attempt at humor.  The people that are here are not only from south of the border, but the Caribbean, Central American, South American, Europe, the far East and all parts of the globe.

All people that are here illegally should be sent back to where they came from, irregardless of their color, sex, or in your case, the lack of, or whatever. 

We should have special units, whose only reason in life is to hunt down these law breakers and send them home without the benefit of trial, hearing or any other benefit that our society now bestows upon them.


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## mak2

paul webster said:


> And what do we do to the American coyotes who exploit and traffic these people in to the U.S.A. against there will for slave labor and prostitution, do we charge them with kidnapping even though the crime originated in another country ???



They should indeed be thrown in jail.


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## paul webster

Do you feel they have unjustly taken your job ?


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## mak2

I really dont get your argument Paul. Everyone who participates in an illegeal act is criminal.  It was wrong not to enforce the laws for several years, but that makes it no less a crime to break the law.


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## REDDOGTWO

paul webster said:


> And what do we do to the American coyotes who exploit and traffic these people in to the U.S.A. against there will for slave labor and prostitution, do we charge them with kidnapping even though the crime originated in another country ???


 
How do we charge someone with kidnapping when the people that are enslaved for whatever purpose came along on their own free will.  Yes, if the people involve enslave the illegal immigrants, they should be prosecuted, however under the correct statutes.

In a lot of the instances the coyotes involved come from the other side of the border and are not just Americans.


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## REDDOGTWO

paul webster said:


> Do you feel they have unjustly taken your job ?


 
They can go home and have my job of an unemployed vegetable peddler.


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## paul webster

At least you have a sense of humor.........


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## REDDOGTWO

paul webster said:


> At least you have a sense of humor.........


 
With spending 20k a year on health related insurance and the low payments by the insurance companies, which in a large part is caused by the huge number of illegal immigrants who do not pay their fair share of the health industry and spending an additional 26k on real estate taxes which would be a lot lower if not having to supplement these illegals and school their children you have to have a sense of humor.


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## paul webster

The topic has a wider scope than I think I can get into with you guys, but it has been amusing, thats why this is America, land of opportunity, and risk...............


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## paul webster

red dog, what part of ND ?


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## REDDOGTWO

Bismarck


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## waybomb

It's this frickin simple- they are ILLEGAL. WTF do you want to defend a criminal? They are the lowest of lowlifes. They know the law and break it every second they are here. Not just a fleeting second, like when somebody punches somebody out, no, every second of every day they are here. CRIMINALS. They don't respect our border, our laws, our culture. Leave. GTF out. 

Here's the plan - have them go back to Mexico or wherever they came from, and come back when they take the time to do it legally. We welcome legal immigrants in America.


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## paul webster

Typical red neck reply..............  you probobly go to the harbor in Manitowoc and yell fish ON !!!  then hope you snag a fish and call it fishing...


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## waybomb

Typical reply - call somebody names.

Sorry - you have stereotyped me and seem to have tendencies of a prejudiced person. You don't even know me, my background, education, lifestyle, etc, yet you lower yourself to calling me names.

Back to the question at hand - why do you defend criminals and try to justify their actions? Especially premeditated criminals. That break the law every second they are here.


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## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

paul webster said:


> O.K. you must be either really ignorant or not informed... answer the following, where were your grandparents from ? and there parents ? then I will give you somethings to think about, or a scenario or two, or if you read my bio you will understand, remember there are two sides of every coin.......


 
I'm a legal immigrant.  You want to know the funny thing - my Grandmother was born in Brooklyn.

It took me two years of brain numbing bureaucratic pain to get my permanent residency.  I have a Masters Degree from a US University and already had been in the US for 8 years on a variety of tech related work visas AND I was married to an American with an American daughter.  As I was going through immigration court I got to see way too many illegals going through the system and got to see how the immigration judge bent over backwards to help these people while I had to pay a ton in lawyer fees to fight a bad case (I won - I guess if you don't consider the legal expense).  No one at the USCIS/INS was bending over to help me.  The agent assigned to me spoke worse english than I do.

They are illegal.  Make them leave and go through the hoops like the rest of us.  To ignore it is a disgrace.

Your bio lists "retired advogado" which appears to be some sort reference to being a lawyer.  Unfortunately, that doesn't impress me much.  The legal industry is a self feeding industry.  I think all this illegal immigration stuff is a big cash cow for way too many lawyers.


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## California

paul webster said:


> The topic has a wider scope than I think I can get into with you guys,


Paul, welcome to the wild side of FF. There's more here than just Snowcats.

Folks, look around. I'm not going to defend illegal activity, that's indefensible. But there's a reason why government isn't moving to round up and deport the aliens. Our economy would collapse. No more vegetables. No more fruit. No more lodging industry. Gone.  Nobody will do those jobs. Likewise roofing, cement, and the entire less-skilled half of the construction industry. Gone. I think some of you look at an alien and think leech but that's not the reality. The reality is that native born Americans won't do field work or make other peoples beds.

Bush knows this. That's why he tries to talk a hard line for political reasons while doing nothing to the employers, which would be the logical point to attack the problem. Different politicians may promise to 'get tough', to stay a jump ahead of the talk radio patriots. It's not going to happen. I haven't paid much attention to the amnesty proposals that recently fell apart, but I don't think we will see a compromise soon. I predict the status quo, ie continuing illegal immigration to fill needed jobs and a 'don't ask don't tell' position by the federal government, will continue indefinitely. There's no alternative.


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## paul webster

I went to UND Grand Forks, hated every summer with the smell of beets, and every winter with the bitter cold and wind.......


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## REDDOGTWO

California said:


> Paul, welcome to the wild side of FF. There's more here than just Snowcats.
> 
> Folks, look around. I'm not going to defend illegal activity, that's indefensible. But there's a reason why government isn't moving to round up and deport the aliens. Our economy would collapse. No more vegetables. No more fruit. No more lodging industry. Gone. Nobody will do those jobs. Likewise roofing, cement, and the entire less-skilled half of the construction industry. Gone. I think some of you look at an alien and think leech but that's not the reality. The reality is that native born Americans won't do field work or make other peoples beds.
> 
> Bush knows this. That's why he tries to talk a hard line for political reasons while doing nothing to the employers, which would be the logical point to attack the problem. Different politicians may promise to 'get tough', to stay a jump ahead of the talk radio patriots. It's not going to happen. I haven't paid much attention to the amnesty proposals that recently fell apart, but I don't think we will see a compromise soon. I predict the status quo, ie continuing illegal immigration to fill needed jobs and a 'don't ask don't tell' position by the federal government, will continue indefinitely. There's no alternative.


 
There are many days that I cannot sell all of the vegetables that we produce.  I have not had a problem finding people to work.  If we could get the price up by employing people here that are legal, I could produce a decent living off of my crops.


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## waybomb

California said:


> Paul, welcome to the wild side of FF. There's more here than just Snowcats.
> 
> Folks, look around. I'm not going to defend illegal activity, that's indefensible. But there's a reason why government isn't moving to round up and deport the aliens. Our economy would collapse. No more vegetables. No more fruit. No more lodging industry. Gone. Nobody will do those jobs. Likewise roofing, cement, and the entire less-skilled half of the construction industry. Gone. I think some of you look at an alien and think leech but that's not the reality. The reality is that native born Americans won't do field work or make other peoples beds.
> 
> Bush knows this. That's why he tries to talk a hard line for political reasons while doing nothing to the employers, which would be the logical point to attack the problem. Different politicians may promise to 'get tough', to stay a jump ahead of the talk radio patriots. It's not going to happen. I haven't paid much attention to the amnesty proposals that recently fell apart, but I don't think we will see a compromise soon. I predict the status quo, ie continuing illegal immigration to fill needed jobs and a 'don't ask don't tell' position by the federal government, will continue indefinitely. There's no alternative.


 
I believe the real reason is called electioneering. Many politicians believe they will die at the polls if they offend anybody, legal or illegal. 

Nobody works in the fields because of the money. So, the illegals leave, and gues what - farmers have to pay what the job is worth! How about that? And the reality is that the cost of veggies or fruits will not go up substantially - maybe 10 cents per pound max.

Same for maids, and any other low level job. 

And most illegals aren't in the fields. Imagine 20,000,000 of any background working in the fields. Sorry - there ain't that many.

And guess what, you leave and you can actually come back legally if you are a law abiding person by heart and soul. Yup, it may take some work, but all good things take work.


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## REDDOGTWO

paul webster said:


> I went to UND Grand Forks, hated every summer with the smell of beets, and every winter with the bitter cold and wind.......


 
The beets are the smell of money and the cold and wind used to keep out the undesirables.


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## paul webster

Thank you Mr California     ever topic you touched on is true.....  the government has the mentality of a fence post,, if you dont believe me, just call I.C.E ( immigration and customs enforcement ) and go through the prompts   and try to report ANY illegal activity by a illegal alien, you will finally get a college girl on the line who says she will take the report and someone will investigate it in 30-90 days, I have done this report system when I was threatened by a illegal, its a joke, I went to the ICE office in Bloomington, MN, and asked to see a officer, they said I needed to go online and make a appointment, 4-6 weeks, I demanded to speak to someone, finally after serious convincing I was granted access, but the officer told me I shoud get  restraining order.......  typical government.... I have been on both sides, I too feel that something has to be done, but at what cost... just my 2 cents


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## paul webster

I am afraid that some of you are really not to well informed on immigration, this is the law, they can not come back if they leave, if they enter illegally, they have 90 days to exit, at which point they can go to the U.S counsul in there country and apply, and must get a waiver because they were already here, if  they are caught in some other form of illegal activity, a felony only, they will be deported and will receive a 10 ( TEN YEAR BAN ) form our country.... either way if here longer than 90 days illegally its a 10 year ban..........


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## ddrane2115

paul webster said:


> The topic has a wider scope than I think I can get into with you guys, but it has been amusing, thats why this is America, land of opportunity, and risk...............


 

WTH, you are asking for a fight here.  This slaps at us not being educated enough...................here is the slapdown, here illegal, go frigging home, walk ride or be taken, you wont want to come back when you see the prison you will be housed in................remember hard labor, tents, latrenes.


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## ddrane2115

paul webster said:


> Typical red neck reply.............. you probobly go to the harbor in Manitowoc and yell fish ON !!! then hope you snag a fish and call it fishing...


 

you just dont get it do you................


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## ddrane2115

California said:


> Paul, welcome to the wild side of FF. There's more here than just Snowcats.
> 
> Folks, look around. I'm not going to defend illegal activity, that's indefensible. But there's a reason why government isn't moving to round up and deport the aliens. Our economy would collapse. No more vegetables. No more fruit. No more lodging industry. Gone. Nobody will do those jobs. Likewise roofing, cement, and the entire less-skilled half of the construction industry. Gone. I think some of you look at an alien and think leech but that's not the reality. The reality is that native born Americans won't do field work or make other peoples beds.
> 
> Bush knows this. That's why he tries to talk a hard line for political reasons while doing nothing to the employers, which would be the logical point to attack the problem. Different politicians may promise to 'get tough', to stay a jump ahead of the talk radio patriots. It's not going to happen. I haven't paid much attention to the amnesty proposals that recently fell apart, but I don't think we will see a compromise soon. I predict the status quo, ie continuing illegal immigration to fill needed jobs and a 'don't ask don't tell' position by the federal government, will continue indefinitely. There's no alternative.


 
Sure there is, the millions on welfare cause they can not find work, or who can work but dont due to crack head doctors giving out get out of work and go on SSI all day.   While rounding up the illegals, lets round up those that CAN work and prove it everyday by sitting, standing or walking to do whatever they do.  If you can physically work, and no YOUR doctor dont count, then you will work or the money stops.................TODAY!

and for the record, I am not to good to do anything I can!  Fortunately I am working and making a great living, but guess what folks............................................................................drum roll please.........................................I COULD BE TOTALLY disabled, on SSI and legal.  See I have a dibilitating nerve disorder that will get me SSI anytime I want it....................but I CHOOSE to do better for me, my family and my life.  Yes there are millions that can work but dont due to shithead doctors who give them excuses.


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## ddrane2115

paul webster said:


> I am afraid that some of you are really not to well informed on immigration, this is the law, they can not come back if they leave, if they enter illegally, they have 90 days to exit, at which point they can go to the U.S counsul in there country and apply, and must get a waiver because they were already here, if they are caught in some other form of illegal activity, a felony only, they will be deported and will receive a 10 ( TEN YEAR BAN ) form our country.... either way if here longer than 90 days illegally its a 10 year ban..........


 

they are illegal, which means they dont give a flying crap about our laws...........what part of this dont you get............oh and you could use a spell checker some too


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## paul webster

If they enter OUR country under there own free will without inspection, they should be deported..... but not under there own free will is a different story.......and law, which we have its called a T visa which is not secret anymore.....its a difficult subject at best


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## REDDOGTWO

What percentage of those in this country illegally were abducted and brought into this country against their will, not those that were simply misguided on the intentions of those that brought them in?


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## Deadly Sushi

Paul Webster, there is reality and then there is law enforcement.
You are mixing the two, and possibly a tequila drink.  
Anyhow, no matter what you say, after the presidental election, we will be shipping back illegals, removing any money or freebies they are currently getting and hopefully removing the 'legal' status of their children born here (as legal citizens) as well. 
You can pout and complain. Be my guest. They do NOT deserve to be in this country. They knew it. They took the risk. 
*Dont base an argument on what would happen if the illegals left. America will adjust and we will spend our money on OUR citizens.*

Now, we just have to keep the hot chicks in the US.


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## paul webster

Well, at least a guy from chicago has a great sense of humor, it doesnt matter how many were brought in against there will, if it was only one, then that persons life has meaning, the constitution says so, its under the immigration reform act that was passed by congress and signed by a guy called the president, I think his name might have been something like Kennedy or Johnson.........and I believe that if you didnt vote for these guys then just maybe one of your " legal relatives did " and that I would bet on......  just my 2 cents


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## Melensdad

Seems to me that as the son of a LEGAL immigrant I have a slightly different perspective than some people.  I am all in favor of immigration, as long as it is legal immigration.  Do what my dad did.  Go through Ellis Island _(or one of the other legal entry points)_, put your name in the book, learn to speak English, assimilate into our culture, bring a skill that is needed, work to be a productive citizen, join our armed forces, take citizenship tests.  Earn your way into the nation. . . just like PBinWA . . . just like my dad.

The vast majority of the current illegal immigrants came here of their own free will.  The vast majority of them choose to live here while knowingly violating our laws.  They live in fear of being caught by immigration and they adapt to live here anyway.  Essentially they are flagrant violators of our laws.  How have they earned the right to live here?  How have they earned the right to send their children to school here?  How have they earned the right to be protected by our legal system, or cared for by welfare system?


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## Tractors4u

paul webster said:


> Can't believe there are people who actually believe all that you have posted, show just how stupid some americans are, you post all the bad they cause, why dont you list the good also and see how the scales of justice weigh out.................just a thought


 
OK Paul since you brought it up, what are the great things that the illegals are doing?


----------



## Tractors4u

paul webster said:


> O.K. you must be either really ignorant or not informed... answer the following, where were your grandparents from ? and there parents ? then I will give you somethings to think about, or a scenario or two, or if you read my bio you will understand, remember there are two sides of every coin.......


 

Grandparents are from Alabama and South Carolina.  Great Grand Parents, the same location.  

We are talking about illegal aliens, not those that obey the law and migrate to this country through the established process.


----------



## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Just to add fuel to the fire and show just how broken the system is. Here is an example I saw play over and over again in Immigration court:

Judge: Mr Sanchez, you've been in the country how long?
MS: 7 years
Judge: Do you have a lawyer with you today?
MS: No
Judge: Do you understand why you are here today?
MS: Si
Judge: Do you know that there are several public aid attorneys that can assist you?
MS: No
Judge: I'm going to give you a list of attorneys to contact that are offer their services for free and I want you to talk to one of them.
MS: Okay.
Judge: We will re-schedule your court case for 90 days from now. Please go talk to one of these free attorneys.
MS: Thank you.

Rinse and Repeat at the rate of probably 3-4 times an hour. Each time the illegal immigrant is sent away and politely asked to return in 3 months on their own free will. No attempt is made to ask the immigrant if they are truly guilty of entering the country illegally or anything that could incriminate them. I saw one guy from Eastern Europe that was ordered to leave but he had a lawyer and a long rap sheet. Everyone else was politely sent off to return again on their own free will. I wonder how many really do return and how many just move.

The system is broken. Failure to correct the system can not be justified in a moral and fair society. Tolerating acceptance of criminal activity sets a dangerous precedent for the future of this country. It may be too late to turn the clock back but I'm all for trying to correct what is wrong.


----------



## RedRocker

A whole lot of Mexicans down here feel entitled to the USA, have no intention of assimilating and love waving Mexican flags at their little get togethers. In their mind the USA was stolen from them and they're here to get it back. 
The next few years should be interesting.


----------



## alaska120

Discussion a few months ago was on how hard the US is on illegal immigrants. Ever try to immigrate to Mexico? Cananda? England? Even Down Under?
Example...
An American citizen married a Canandian citizen. The wife (Canadian) lived and worked in the US for 30 years. She has dual citizenship as she is married to an American. Upon retirement (with a good retirement package) they decided to move to Cananda. 
Guess what.
They wouldn't let him stay. 
They moved to Washington instead.
Why wouldn't they let him stay? 
He hadn't paid into the Canadian tax system and wasn't going to as he was retired.
Hear anyone b!7ch about Canadian laws? Of course not. Only the 'big, bad' US is at fault.
I'm sick of all the crying and whining. Really.............................
I could go on but I need a blood pressure break.


----------



## paul webster

They fill the minimun wage jobs that us as American will not do... look at Mcdonalds next time you ordera BIG MAC... or any CONSTRUCTION SITE !!! I dont remember the price of homes going down, or a builder telling me he would give me a better price because he used undocumented labor, they charge more and pocket the difference,they also pay a big portion of our social security, I might ad also that alot of them use false social security cards and will never get any of the money, so it becomes surplus... I dont remember seeing any of you guys picking fruit or vegetables in our farm fields !!!! So what do all you legal eagles have to say about US AS AMERICANS BEING TWO SIDED AND SAYING , KICK ALL OFTHEM OUT, BUT WHEN YOU HAVE TO PAY MORE AT MCDONALDS,BURGER KIBG, OR TO BUY A NEW HOME, OR GROCERIES AT THE LOCAL CUB FOODS YOU WILL HAVE A DIFFERENT TUNE, YOU WILL BITCH TO NO END !!!! I GUARANTEE IT........ JUST A THOUGHT


----------



## RedRocker

Speak for yourself, I have no problem paying my way! 
Get over yourself with the "jobs Americans won't do" BS, more 
democRat talking points. I guarantee the jobs will get done by
American citizens, just like they were before the invasion.
As far as seeing "you guys" picking fruit, when was the last time
 you looked?


----------



## bczoom

Paul,

You've asked everyone else, so I want to ask you.  Where are you from?  Your parents?  Their parents?  
Are (were) you an attorney in the USA, Mexico, Brazil or another country?  Were you an immigration attorney?


----------



## Av8r3400

I'd bet none of the above.  

Just a typical flaming troll trying to get under people's skin.


----------



## ghautz

paul webster said:


> I am afraid that some of you are really not to well informed on immigration, this is the law, they can not come back if they leave, if they enter illegally, they have 90 days to exit, at which point they can go to the U.S counsul in there country and apply, and must get a waiver because they were already here, if  they are caught in some other form of illegal activity, a felony only, they will be deported and will receive a 10 ( TEN YEAR BAN ) form our country.... either way if here longer than 90 days illegally its a 10 year ban..........



This 10 year ban is not very effective.  An illegal alien was arrested in Chandler, Arizona, a few days ago.  DNA proved he is the "Chandler Rapist" who has terrorized the area for about a year and a half.  He has been deported twice in the last eight or so years for drug-related offenses.


----------



## paul webster

RedRocker said:


> Speak for yourself, I have no problem paying my way!
> Get over yourself with the "jobs Americans won't do" BS, more
> democRat talking points. I guarantee the jobs will get done by
> American citizens, just like they were before the invasion.
> As far as seeing "you guys" picking fruit, when was the last time
> you looked?


  I looked at Mcdonalds yesterday, and I looked at the fieds last august, when I was in Texas, and the fields in South Dakota in november when I was pheasant hunting, sure was alot of them helping in the corn fields with the combines !!!!


----------



## paul webster

ghautz said:


> This 10 year ban is not very effective. An illegal alien was arrested in Chandler, Arizona, a few days ago. DNA proved he is the "Chandler Rapist" who has terrorized the area for about a year and a half. He has been deported twice in the last eight or so years for drug-related offenses.


I am not saying it is effective, the 10 yr ban, I am saying you are taking a isolated case, worse case scenario, and stapling ALL the immigrants into 1 bucket, you cant do that, its not possible... there are varibles........


----------



## Melensdad

paul webster said:


> I looked at Mcdonalds yesterday, and I looked at the fieds last august, when I was in Texas, and the fields in South Dakota in november when I was pheasant hunting, *sure was alot of them* helping in the corn fields with the combines !!!!



Just curious, but do you know how to tell the difference between the 'illegals' and those who happen to be citizens or those legally here with a 'work visa' while you are making your judgements?   Seems like you are presuming that all people of Spanish descent are illegal and are part of the underground economy.


----------



## paul webster

And while we are on the subject, what do you experts think should be done to the business who hires the illegal immigrants and look the other way because they can pay them less money than the law stipulates.......and take a job away from a U.S. citizen who they would by law have to pay more and pay the benefits of health care and Social security !!!!


----------



## Tractors4u

Mr. Webster sent me a private message blasted one of my posts and accusing my ancestors of illegal entry into the U.S. .

My Reply to him. 

_All caps denotes yelling, are you yelling at me?  What does my truck have to do with this?_

_You are making a big assumption.  When my ancestors came from England, what makes you think that they did not process through Ellis Island?  They may or may not have.  They may have came through at a point in our country's history where there were not any immigration laws.  The point is Paul, that there are immigration laws now and they should be obeyed.  I'll tell you what.  I like your place.  It is nicer than my house.  How about I come live with you.  I will eat your food, drink your beer, use your hot water and electricity.  I will take out your trash and clean your toilet because I know you don't like to do that.  I know that would be trespassing, but you are benefitting from me being there so it is OK._


----------



## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Tractors4u said:


> Mr. Webster sent me a private message blasted one of my posts and accusing my ancestors of illegal entry into the U.S. .
> 
> My Reply to him.
> 
> _All caps denotes yelling, are you yelling at me? What does my truck have to do with this?_
> 
> _You are making a big assumption. When my ancestors came from England, what makes you think that they did not process through Ellis Island? They may or may not have. They may have came through at a point in our country's history where there were not any immigration laws. The point is Paul, that there are immigration laws now and they should be obeyed. I'll tell you what. I like your place. It is nicer than my house. How about I come live with you. I will eat your food, drink your beer, use your hot water and electricity. I will take out your trash and clean your toilet because I know you don't like to do that. I know that would be trespassing, but you are benefitting from me being there so it is OK._


 
Very well said Brent!


----------



## paul webster

My only saving grace to all you sharp as a cue ball legal minds is this: I agree with all of you, you are all right and I must be wrong, hell lets just do this, lets start kickin them out, lets see, who should go first, I will I am a US citizen, but what the hell, my ancestors are of german history, so I must be illegal at some point in time.. So then letS go with the Italians, they all break the law, right, they must, they are all in the MOB, but LETS not take it on a Case by case basis that would be to easy, if they are from there they must be here illegally and must go, same as the Japanese, they must be Yakuza, no exceptions, then the Vietnamese, Chinese, koreans, All germans must be Nazis, and hell if there not remember we are making NO exceptionsn here, along with the POlish, greeks and ALL somalis and african people, doesnt matter that we brought them all here as slaves, kick them OUT, and finally the AMERICAN INDIANS, hmmm, what will we do with them, they must be Illegal, we STOLE THIS COUNTRY FROM THEM, SO THEY ARE NOW HERE ILLEGALLY,LETS SEND THEM TO, MEXICO, ITS HOT THERE........ I WISH I COULD ARGURE WITH SOME OF YOU IN A COURT OF LAW, IT WOULD BE FUNNY TO SEE A JUDGE TELL YOU YOU ARE IN CONTEMPT OR OVER RULED......


----------



## Glink

Have we all been called Nazis yet? That's the last on the play list.


----------



## Tractors4u

paul webster said:


> My only saving grace to all you sharp as a cue ball legal minds is this: I agree with all of you, you are all right and I must be wrong, hell lets just do this, lets start kickin them out, lets see, who should go first, I will I am a US citizen, but what the hell, my ancestors are of german history, so I must be illegal at some point in time.. So then letS go with the Italians, they all break the law, right, they must, they are all in the MOB, but LETS not take it on a Case by case basis that would be to easy, if they are from there they must be here illegally and must go, same as the Japanese, they must be Yakuza, no exceptions, then the Vietnamese, Chinese, koreans, All germans must be Nazis, and hell if there not remember we are making NO exceptionsn here, along with the POlish, greeks and ALL somalis and african people, doesnt matter that we brought them all here as slaves, kick them OUT, and finally the AMERICAN INDIANS, hmmm, what will we do with them, they must be Illegal, we STOLE THIS COUNTRY FROM THEM, SO THEY ARE NOW HERE ILLEGALLY,LETS SEND THEM TO, MEXICO, ITS HOT THERE........ I WISH I COULD ARGURE WITH SOME OF YOU IN A COURT OF LAW, IT WOULD BE FUNNY TO SEE A JUDGE TELL YOU YOU ARE IN CONTEMPT OR OVER RULED......


 
What is so hard to comprehend about enforcing the laws of our country?  I hear stories on the news about our ports not being secure, but hey, lets not worry about our borders.  I love that elitist argument that we need them here to do our dirty jobs because those tasks are below us.  You never answered my reply to your private message.  What is wrong with me coming to live with you?  I have the right to a better life and if I can obtain that from trespassing on to your property, that is my right.


----------



## Doc

paul webster said:


> And while we are on the subject, what do you experts think should be done to the business who hires the illegal immigrants and look the other way because they can pay them less money than the law stipulates.......and take a job away from a U.S. citizen who they would by law have to pay more and pay the benefits of health care and Social security !!!!



In my opinion that is how we can get the illegals under control.  Any business who hires and illegal would be fined harshly.  It should be the employers who have to verify the person is an American citizen.  No proof no job.  If this were put into action no illegals would want to live here for they would not have work.  It would send a message to all, come in legally or don't come at all.


----------



## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

paul webster said:


> I WISH I COULD ARGURE WITH SOME OF YOU IN A COURT OF LAW, IT WOULD BE FUNNY TO SEE A JUDGE TELL YOU YOU ARE IN CONTEMPT OR OVER RULED......


 
So far I wouldn't see that happening.  The only one yelling, screaming and being rude to others here is you.


----------



## paul webster

PBinWA said:


> Very well said Brent!


Ellis Island is where they put all the illegals who did not have papers, thats why they called them wops, ( with out papers )


----------



## paul webster

I cant argue legal vs illegal here, its not possible, but I havnt heard to many answers to my questions ??? about businesses hiring illegals..


----------



## Tractors4u

paul webster said:


> Ellis Island is where they put all the illegals who did not have papers, thats why the called them wops, ( with out )


 
I did not know that.  It is funny that the term was only used for one nationality with out papers.  

Maybe we should open up Ellis Island for that purpose again.


----------



## Tractors4u

paul webster said:


> I cant argue legal vs illegal here, its not possible, but I havnt heard to many answers to my questions ??? about businesses hiring illegals..


 
I agree that hammering the businesses hard is part of the solution.  Hammering the illegals is the other part. 

You still haven't answered my question either.  Are you polling your liberal friends for a snappy come back?


----------



## paul webster

I think I will sign off this discussion, I just had a guy call me on the phone and threaten to break my knees for defending illegals, good luck to you guys in your business and personal affairs, Paul


----------



## Melensdad

paul webster said:


> Ellis Island is where they put all the illegals who did not have papers, thats why they called them wops, ( with out papers )


Interesting that my father went through Ellis Island.  He came here legally.   He had papers.  He is not Italian.


----------



## nixon

paul webster said:


> I think I will sign off this discussion, I just had a guy call me on the phone and threaten to break my knees for defending illegals, good luck to you guys in your business and personal affairs, Paul



Great way to back out of getting Your head handed to You in a debate  
Did the caller say "you'll sleep with the fishes " ?
You know Paul, there aren't any posters on here that I've been tempted to give negative points . But, You're pushing it.  I certainly hope You change your posting style as to be less confrontational .


----------



## bczoom

paul webster said:


> I cant argue legal vs illegal here, its not possible, but I havnt heard to many answers to my questions ??? about businesses hiring illegals..


PAUL - YES, I'M YELLING.  You haven't answered a DAMN question I (publicly, or via PM) have asked you, nor that's been asked of you from other members but you insist on answers from us.  TELL US WHY WE'RE WRONG FOR THINKING ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS WRONG!!! 



paul webster said:


> I think I will sign off this discussion, I just had a guy call me on the phone and threaten to break my knees for defending illegals, good luck to you guys in your business and personal affairs, Paul


IT WASN'T ME but I too am fed up with your BS about this issue.  Hope you have a great life.  SEE 'YA!!


----------



## DaveNay

Hi guys!  OK, I'm here!  Have I missed anything yet?!


----------



## bczoom

Bump.

Just wanted to put back my signature line that got Paul so pissed off a couple weeks ago.

Hey Paul - Hope you enjoy it although I don't think so based on the PM's you've sent me.


----------



## paul webster

bczoom said:


> PAUL - YES, I'M YELLING. You haven't answered a DAMN question I (publicly, or via PM) have asked you, nor that's been asked of you from other members but you insist on answers from us. TELL US WHY WE'RE WRONG FOR THINKING ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS WRONG!!!
> 
> 
> IT WASN'T ME but I too am fed up with your BS about this issue. Hope you have a great life. SEE 'YA!!


  the point is this sir, illegal immigration is wrong, and is illegal, but the law is that if a person enters illegally, they have 90 days to leave or claim asslym.....  period, end of story, or get a 10 year ban. unless they are granted some type of special circumstances visa, like a ( T ) visa, which means they were brought here against there own free will.


----------



## bczoom

paul webster said:


> but the law is that if a person enters illegally, they have 90 days to leave or claim asslym.....  period, end of story


COOL.  We've got 100 illegals now taken care of.

Now, what do you propose we do with the other 19,999,900 of them?

You still haven't answered my question(s) about where you came from or whether you were an immigration attorney.

Give us an idea of where you're coming from.  Why do you condone this activity?  The BS about picking veggies and cleaning hotels doesn't cut it.  You keep saying we don't understand.  Explain it to us.

BTW, PS.  I put my old signature line back in.  You like it?


----------



## RedRocker

paul webster said:


> I looked at Mcdonalds yesterday, and I looked at the fieds last august, when I was in Texas, and the fields in South Dakota in november when I was pheasant hunting, sure was alot of them helping in the corn fields with the combines !!!!


 
So you're the ass hole that peppered me with bird shot while I was
pickn crops!!


----------



## RedRocker

paul webster said:


> I think I will sign off this discussion, I just had a guy call me on the phone and threaten to break my knees for defending illegals, good luck to you guys in your business and personal affairs, Paul


----------



## ddrane2115

ok who did the favor.  dont worry paul, your knees are safe, no one here would really do that, but we will deport your butt if you are illegal and not let you come back


----------



## waybomb

paul webster said:


> I am afraid that some of you are really not to well informed on immigration, this is the law, they can not come back if they leave, if they enter illegally, they have 90 days to exit, at which point they can go to the U.S counsul in there country and apply, and must get a waiver because they were already here, if they are caught in some other form of illegal activity, a felony only, they will be deported and will receive a 10 ( TEN YEAR BAN ) form our country.... either way if here longer than 90 days illegally its a 10 year ban..........


 
You don't know much about immigration!

Why do they have to get caught to go back? So they can mooch some more and get a free ride?

No, they can go back anytime they want, using the same methods they used to get in - illegally cross the border. Simple.


----------



## waybomb

Deadly Sushi said:


> Paul Webster, there is reality and then there is law enforcement.
> You are mixing the two, and possibly a tequila drink.
> Anyhow, no matter what you say, after the presidental election, we will be shipping back illegals, removing any money or freebies they are currently getting and hopefully removing the 'legal' status of their children born here (as legal citizens) as well.
> You can pout and complain. Be my guest. They do NOT deserve to be in this country. They knew it. They took the risk.
> *Dont base an argument on what would happen if the illegals left. America will adjust and we will spend our money on OUR citizens.*
> 
> Now, we just have to keep the hot chicks in the US.


 

Jeezuz K.h. Riste! Is that really you Sushi? Damn, you sound like a tough guy now! Oh, ya, for sure - the hot chicks part! Use some of that tough guy stuff on the chicks - they seem to dig it.


----------



## alaska120

Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.
Great thread though.
Maybe an underlying issue that has escaped so far is that of entry level jobs for Americans. Born or legalized.
We have heard the mantra that 'no one else will do the work'. I submit that if the jobs were there, someone would do them. Even at minimum wage. Society has as a whole conditioned the younger populace (somehow) to 'have it all' and are not willing to work hard. Hell, I've been working for 30 years and still don't think I make what I deserve. Do I quit because of it? No. Why? Because I have some innate desire to be away from the government system and be a man. 
Remember when minimum wage was $2.15? Less? Did we whine then or were we glad to get a paycheck?


----------



## paul webster

This is a pretty tough group here, would someone care to comment about how the WHITE MAN STOLE THIS COUNTRY FROM THE AMERICAN INDIANS, AND WHERE WE SHOULD DEPORT THEM TO......


----------



## Melensdad

paul webster said:


> This is a pretty tough group here, would someone care to comment about how the WHITE MAN STOLE THIS COUNTRY FROM THE AMERICAN INDIANS, AND WHERE WE SHOULD DEPORT THEM TO......


Huh?

I didn't know they were here illegally, nor was I aware that they were taking the entry level jobs away from citizens.  In fact I thought they were citizens.  Hummph, I guess I just learned something.  Who'd a thunk it but the American Indians are illegal aliens


----------



## alaska120

We can back it up for millions of years if we want. Bottom line (at least in the US) is that 99.9999999999999% of us are immigrants. 
Even the American Indians.
What is the most important, and all that we have control over, is the present.
And presently, there are an incredible amount of undocumented/illegal people living in the US.


----------



## waybomb

paul webster said:


> This is a pretty tough group here, would someone care to comment about how the WHITE MAN STOLE THIS COUNTRY FROM THE AMERICAN INDIANS, AND WHERE WE SHOULD DEPORT THEM TO......


 
How old are you? How does this relate to illegal immigrants?

Did the Indians have anything resembling laws they could enforce? Apparently not. 

Winning by war is quite different than what illegals are doing.


----------



## paul webster

MR. Waybomb, The U.S. broke several treaties with the American Indians, but we are getting a little off the subject now, the fact is that the US has provisions for immigrants that enter illegally to become legal, it is very difficult I will be the first to admit, as to your question about my age, does it matter, no, but I will answer, 50,and the debate goes on, and on.........and I might add that you being from the state of Wisconsin, you have seen the Indians fight for there right to spear walleyes and use big nets, and the caucasians fight them, and the fights between the hmong and white hunters, tragic as it was.......so who really wins


----------



## paul webster

I think I will go back to my snow cat page, it is really less stressfull for me.....


----------



## waybomb

paul webster said:


> MR. Waybomb, The U.S. broke several treaties with the American Indians, but we are getting a little off the subject now, the fact is that the US has provisions for immigrants that enter illegally to become legal, it is very difficult I will be the first to admit, as to your question about my age, does it matter, no, but I will answer, 50,and the debate goes on, and on.........


 
Awe, it's just waybomb.

All countries break treaties. Again, being powerful and smart is a wonderful thing. The weak lose. So they can follow or get out of the way. 

And like I said, the illegals can leave the same way they came. Then they can start the legal process.

No, they don't get to stay here while they are here illegally. Back over the Rio Grande, or through it, they should go....

And when they come back, they better be speaking English, and better assimilate.


----------



## paul webster

waybomb said:


> Awe, it's just waybomb.
> 
> All countries break treaties. Again, being powerful and smart is a wonderful thing. The weak lose. So they can follow or get out of the way.
> 
> And like I said, the illegals can leave the same way they came. Then they can start the legal process.
> 
> No, they don't get to stay here while they are here illegally. Back over the Rio Grande, or through it, they should go....
> 
> And when they come back, they better be speaking English, and better assimilate.


you are saying all illegals are from mexico by your post, are you ?


----------



## waybomb

20,000,000 is the estimated number of illegal Mexicans in the US, correct? If I am wrong, then, I stand corrected. I was under the asumption, based on the 20,000,000 number, this was about Mexicans.

But to your point, ANY illegal can certainly reverse what they've done to enter here by leaving whatever way they came.


----------



## Tractors4u

paul webster said:


> MR. Waybomb, The U.S. broke several treaties with the American Indians, but we are getting a little off the subject now,


 
And who took us to the American Indian topic?


----------



## alaska120

Another angle...
If we allow the latitude to illegal immigrants that the democracks propose, then exactly what rights do legal Americans have that make us Americans?
I was under the impression that my right to vote, drive a car, get a credit card, etc. were my rights as an American. 
Would the US even be a discernable soverign country any longer?
What would make America, well, America?


----------



## paul webster

Are you really serious, I really hope you dont believe we are  a soverign nation...   that would make it to easy, I dont claim to know any of the immigration SOLUTIONS, I just know that I would not want that burden on anyone, there are so many variables that the courts ( plural ) meaning, civil, criminal, and customs and immigration, have a daunting task at hand, with no future light at the end of this tunnel........


----------



## waybomb

I guess all that is left is vigilante action.


----------



## Cityboy

Wow! This is the most excitement FF has seen in a while! I think I'll give Paul some rep points for raising the dead.  

Welcome to FF Paul Webster. Calm down and relax. These old crusty members like to beat up new guys and run them off if you disagree with them. A little advice: Be civil in your disagreements and use lower case letters except for beginning sentences and proper nouns, etc., and you you won't upset BC Zoom so much.  He's a grumpy little dude sometimes. 

Deadly Sushi survived the gauntlet and we love him now. So you can too. Just be cool and argue your point calmly. This is a pretty civil bunch overall, except for that Zoom character. I think he is Junkmans bastard son, so he gets it honestly.   Just don't post any links for him to click....that releases his inner bitch. And you don't wanna see that! :nosee:


----------



## paul webster

Cityboy said:


> Wow! This is the most excitement FF has seen in a while! I think I'll give Paul some rep points for raising the dead.
> 
> Welcome to FF Paul Webster. Calm down and relax. These old crusty members like to beat up new guys and run them off if you disagree with them. A little advice: Be civil in your disagreements and use lower case letters except for beginning sentences and proper nouns, etc., and you you won't upset BC Zoom so much.  He's a grumpy little dude sometimes.
> 
> Deadly Sushi survived the gauntlet and we love him now. So you can too. Just be cool and argue your point calmly. This is a pretty civil bunch overall, except for that Zoom character. I think he is Junkmans bastard son, so he gets it honestly.   Just don't post any links for him to click....that releases his inner bitch. And you don't wanna see that! :nosee:


thanks for the advice, I am very lucky not to be in a closed room with these guys they are a tough group, I hope they dont lynch me here for giving a different side......


----------



## mak2

Hey Paul me and Shushi whupped up on you very early on (page 1 or 2)  Sorry all these other guys piled on.  You are just so worng it was really not worth all this typeing, which is a struggle for me.  but thanks for the post and please hang around.  Maybe you can beat up on us sometime.


----------



## REDDOGTWO

Getting back off the subject to the first whites stealing the land from the Native Americans (politically correct terminology), this was done legally as the Native Americans believed that the land was not owned by any one, the white man just came here and showed them the error of their ways, that the land was subject to ownership.

Anytime that the earlier Americans did purchase land from the Native population, merely a an exchange for them to leave the land, as there were very few recording offices back then, they were usually well compensated in the exchange with beads, trinkets and blankets.

The Native Americans did not have any immigration laws. Therefore no laws were broken when the white man came here. The white man had no immigration laws when they first came here either, so that the ones that came here before such enactment of said laws were therefore here legally.

We now jump ahead a couple of hundred years and we find people that enter this country without the proper legal authorization, abuse our system of laws, take advantage of our health system, take advantage of our of our entitlement programs and use our school systems to get a free education.

We also now have something called liberals who feel that just because someone broke the law in this country and we send them home that we can trust them not to come back for the time that we tell them.  They broke the law the first time, what would they obey the second, third or fourth time?


----------



## mak2

Again I beg to differ the most excitement was Pirate Girls pics.


----------



## Cityboy

mak2 said:


> Again I beg to differ the most excitement was Pirate Girls pics.


Other than the booty pics, you pervs don't get this excited very often.


----------



## mak2

Cityboy said:


> Other than the booty pics, you pervs don't get this excited very often.



SO!


----------



## ghautz

paul webster said:


> I am not saying it is effective, the 10 yr ban, I am saying you are taking a isolated case, worse case scenario, and stapling ALL the immigrants into 1 bucket, you cant do that, its not possible... there are varibles........



As you state, the ban is not effective.  It is worthless.  I am not placing all the immigrants into one bucket.  I am merely arguing for enforcing the existing laws and enacting whatever effective laws it takes to eliminate all *illegal* immigrants.


----------



## waybomb

paul webster said:


> thanks for the advice, I am very lucky not to be in a closed room with these guys they are a tough group, I hope they dont lynch me here for giving a different side......


 
What's the different side? We think you believe illegals are really legal.

So, why? A legal reason please.


----------



## paul webster

I am NOT WRONG, THEY HAVE RIGHTS IF THEY ARE HERE, ILLEGAL OR NOT, ON OUR SOIL, THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION SAYS SO, AND I WILL FIGHT FOR THAT UNTIL THE DAY I DIE, NO MATTER IF YOUR NAME IS, CHARLES MANSON, DEFFREY DAHMER, GARY GILMORE, TED BUNDY, OR THE GREEN RIVER KILLER, OR JUST A NOBODY WHO WAS TRAFFICKED IN FOR ILLEGAL PURPOSES BY SOME " AMERICAN " COYOTE FOR THE ALMIGHTY DOLLAR, BECAUSE WITH OUT DUE PROCESS WE HAVE A ANACHARY.......


----------



## Cityboy

mak2 said:


> SO!


 
Hey, knock that off. This silly assed thread has got more posts than my Satan 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			
		
		
	


	




Catholic thread. irate:  >>>>>>
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




<<<<<<<<Ain't that a cool smiley?


----------



## Cityboy

paul webster said:


> I am NOT WRONG, THEY HAVE RIGHTS IF THEY ARE HERE, ILLEGAL OR NOT, ON OUR SOIL, THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION SAYS SO, AND I WILL FIGHT FOR THAT UNTIL THE DAY I DIE, NO MATTER IF YOUR NAME IS, CHARLES MANSON, DEFFREY DAHMER, GARY GILMORE, TED BUNDY, OR THE GREEN RIVER KILLER, OR JUST A NOBODY WHO WAS TRAFFICKED IN FOR ILLEGAL PURPOSES BY SOME " AMERICAN " COYOTE FOR THE ALMIGHTY DOLLAR, BECAUSE WITH OUT DUE PROCESS WE HAVE A ANACHARY.......


 
Lower case, Paul, lower case


----------



## mak2

Cityboy said:


> Hey, knock that off. This silly assed thread has got more posts than my Satan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Catholic thread. irate:  >>>>>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <<<<<<<<Ain't that a cool smiley?


----------



## REDDOGTWO

paul webster said:


> I am NOT WRONG, THEY HAVE RIGHTS IF THEY ARE HERE, ILLEGAL OR NOT, ON OUR SOIL, THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION SAYS SO, AND I WILL FIGHT FOR THAT UNTIL THE DAY I DIE, NO MATTER IF YOUR NAME IS, CHARLES MANSON, DEFFREY DAHMER, GARY GILMORE, TED BUNDY, OR THE GREEN RIVER KILLER, OR JUST A NOBODY WHO WAS TRAFFICKED IN FOR ILLEGAL PURPOSES BY SOME " AMERICAN " COYOTE FOR THE ALMIGHTY DOLLAR, BECAUSE WITH OUT DUE PROCESS WE HAVE A ANACHARY.......


 
Where does it say in the constitution that the rights given to us by in and the Bill of Rights apply to all, including people that are here illegally.  I do believe that our President is arguing this same point with others regarding a little jail that we have on an off shore island.


----------



## mak2

Actually I kinda like Paul.  Probably just a troll but might really believe in what he is saying.  Gotta respect that.


----------



## waybomb

REDDOGTWO said:


> Where does it say in the constitution that the rights given to us by in and the Bill of Rights apply to all, including people that are here illegally. I do believe that our President is arguing this same point with others regarding a little jail that we have on an off shore island.


 
I want to know as well, because I hear this argument all the time. 

And lay off the caps Paul Webster?


----------



## fogtender

paul webster said:


> The topic has a wider scope than I think I can get into with you guys, but it has been amusing, thats why this is America, land of opportunity, and risk...............


 

I went though and read your current posts on this and have a real issue with your thought process. 

If all illegals were exported tomorrow, yes, it would cause some hardships, mostly for those that use them for cheap labor. They would have to adjust or go out of business, which means raise their pay until someone wants to work for them. Sure the costs of the items may go up, but for what we are paying in taxes to support illegals will balance out in the long run.

There will be legal imigrants coming here and they are welcome, that can fill the void if the doors are fixed, that isn't a free swinging door with broken hinges like we have now.

I live in Alaska, you would think that it wouldn't affect me here. It does, when I was a kid you could do cannery work (which I did and hated it), not much of it now for our kids unless they speak Spanish. I go into Lowe's Hardware in Fairbanks and all the signs are in English/Spanish.... Why in the world should we have to have spanish here? I could see one of the local Alaskan native languages maybe, but not from a language spoken in a different country...

Your view that it is ok to have them here is really hard to grasp. Is it because you have a company and are raping the workers with low pay and you don't want to spend more money and bring up their lifestyle when you can keep it for yourself? Are you from South of the Boarder or some other country illegally and want to bring your family here too and by screaming "The inhumanity" people will change their minds (does seem to be working though)? 

Anyway, a criminal is just that, someone who broke the Laws of the United States of America, not Mexico. Try sneaking accross Mexico's Southern Boarder and you stand a good chance of getting shot or rotting in a jail cell.

Your argument of "We stole this from the Indians" is mute, what happened before I got here I can't help, my parents, grandparents and so forth were legal imigrants, Cherokee and Blackfoot... so what. Seems that some folks want to pass the guilt on forever. We did treat the American Indians badly in the past, and now they opened Casinos and are raping the white folk back... fair trade off, and they are doing it legally to boot.

Nope, I would have no problems in jailiing anyone who knowingly hires an illegal and those that came here illegally. If you can check your bank balance on a secure line by internet, then establishing a legal resident verses an illegal resident should take not more than a few moments time.

The crap of "Privacy" is and has been a joke, the IRS knows more about you than you do. When your SSN number shows up in Texas when you live in Ohio, they know that before that person who stole it gets their first paycheck....especially when your SSN account recieves two imcome tax payments for the same pay period. Unless of course you have a night job in Dallas and work days in Cleveland and commute daily.

Just my point of view...


----------



## paul webster

I do believe in America, and if you dont believe in US constitution, what do you believe in, ???  this troll also wrestled at 165 in college @ UND, and now is still in shape a 188 and 5 "10, Sorry about the caps way bomb...


----------



## waybomb

waybomb said:


> What's the different side? We think you believe illegals are really legal.
> 
> So, why? A legal reason please.


 
Paul, can you answer?


----------



## fogtender

paul webster said:


> I am NOT WRONG, THEY HAVE RIGHTS IF THEY ARE HERE, ILLEGAL OR NOT, ON OUR SOIL, THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION SAYS SO, AND I WILL FIGHT FOR THAT UNTIL THE DAY I DIE, NO MATTER IF YOUR NAME IS, CHARLES MANSON, DEFFREY DAHMER, GARY GILMORE, TED BUNDY, OR THE GREEN RIVER KILLER, OR JUST A NOBODY WHO WAS TRAFFICKED IN FOR ILLEGAL PURPOSES BY SOME " AMERICAN " COYOTE FOR THE ALMIGHTY DOLLAR, BECAUSE WITH OUT DUE PROCESS WE HAVE A ANACHARY.......


 

Your waffling.... Charles Manson, Dahmer, Gilmore etc, are scum, but they are local "American" born scum and should be treated accordling, with due process of law... 

Illegal's are what we are talking about, and they do not have have "Constitutional" rights (that is a term that the Liberal Left has come up with), as a matter of fact, in most Countries, they are called spies, and still in some of those Countries, they are still shot after a quick trial after lunch. 

Constitutional rights are for American citizens period. Why do you think we have Embassies of other countries here? To take care of their people when they have issues here (as well as PR back home), I.E, thrown in jail, lost passport etc. 

Even the "Coyotes" didn't kidnap anyone, the illegals paid for their services, no matter how cruel they are. 

If I were to travel to Mexico, I will abide by all their laws, that includes imigration, which is very strict, even more so than here.

The farther you get trying to prove your baseless point, the more panic seems to set in and it clearly shows, which is normal for someone that knows they don't have a leg to stand on....


----------



## fogtender

*We the People* of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

*Article II*

*Section 1*

5: No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

-------------------------------------

*This is a really neat thing to read, nowhere does it say that people that come here illegally are allowed the same rights as it's citizens.*

*Article II, Section 1, Paragraph 5.* is the definition of what an American citizen is, one that was born here or here at the time of the Adoption of the Constitution. It wasn't until later that the issue of having people coming here apply for citizenship was established. 

*Illegals were and are just that, Illegals and they have no constitutional rights, period....*


----------



## paul webster

You are wrong sir, the coyotes do kidnap people, and bring them here and sell them, if you do not believe me, call the Woburn, Mass detective division and ask them, because I have dealt with this issue in person, there, and in Mexico city, in Sau Paulo Brasil, Governadoe Valadares, Tio Flatoni, Bixohna, and several othe places, including, Columbia, Peru, and Central America, I have been toe to toe with the coyotes in person in Boston, and physically fought, they are rutheless and cutthroat, nothing short of savages, but Americans, and they to have rights, but you would have to hold me in contempt to get me to defend one, but I would, because everyone has that right if they are here..... the problem is way deeper than you guys can imagine and if I could scan my passport and post it for you all I would....... this is some what personal for me,  I dont want to explode so good night to you all.........


----------



## waybomb

paul webster said:


> You are wrong sir, the coyotes do kidnap people, and bring them here and sell them, if you do not believe me, call the Woburn, Mass detective division and ask them, because I have dealt with this issue in person, there, and in Mexico city, in Sau Paulo Brazil, Governadoe Valadares, Tio Flatoni, Bixohna, and several othe places, including, Columbia, Peru, and Central America, I have been toe to toe with the coyotes in person in Boston, and physically fought, they are rutheless and cutthroat, nothing short of savages, but Americans, and they to have rights, but you would have to hold me in contempt to get me to defend one, but I would, because everyone has that right if they are here..... the problem is way deeper than you guys can imagine and if I could scan my passport and post it for you all I would....... this is some what personal for me, I dont want to explode so good night to you all.........


 
So, there's twenty million of these? 2 million? 200,000? 20,000? 2,000? 200?
And tell me, the coyotes simply go down and steal people? And then smuggle stolen people across the border? And then somehow sell them to somebody that has the ability to isolate them from escaping? Sheesh, people escape from max prisons. 
Whatever reason you keep this up for, I have no clue, but your claims run hollow, and are not very believable.


----------



## fogtender

paul webster said:


> You are wrong sir, the coyotes do kidnap people, and bring them here and sell them.....


 
Having been a police officer in my youth, I will say that being an issue is a possibility, but I would say less than a percent of one percent is "Maybe" fact.  There are too many on the other side of the Boarder willing to pay for their services to get here.  

How stupid do you think a Coyote would have to be to turn down a paying customer for one that doesn't want to go at all....

I can see where the illegal would claim to have been kidnapped when they get caught, same as when a crook gets caught with the goods, he was framed... it's always someone elses fault!

Nothing puts the "Ladies" of the evening out of business quicker than having a college next door... with more than willing participants doing the same trade for free...

You simply cannot "kidnap" a willing participant, what happens "After" they get here is totally different.


----------



## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

paul webster said:


> You are wrong sir, the coyotes do kidnap people, and bring them here and sell them, if you do not believe me, call the Woburn, Mass detective division and ask them, because I have dealt with this issue in person, there, and in Mexico city, in Sau Paulo Brasil, Governadoe Valadares, Tio Flatoni, Bixohna, and several othe places, including, Columbia, Peru, and Central America, I have been toe to toe with the coyotes in person in Boston, and physically fought, they are rutheless and cutthroat, nothing short of savages, but Americans, and they to have rights, but you would have to hold me in contempt to get me to defend one, but I would, because everyone has that right if they are here..... the problem is way deeper than you guys can imagine and if I could scan my passport and post it for you all I would....... this is some what personal for me, I dont want to explode so good night to you all.........


 
You appear to want use obscure cases that are certainly not representative of the majority of the issue.  While, I have no doubt that there are human trafficers, they are certainly not representative of the majority of illegal immigration cases.  

I am also sure that the people on this board are compassionate and would not have a problem with a compassionate immigration policy for the victims of human trafficing as long as it was applied with fairness in perspective to the other legal immigrants.  

I am also sure that the people on this board are in favor of strict penalties for human trafficers and those that profit from the human trafficing.

All we are asking for is that the laws be enforced and not ignored.  We want the system fixed.


----------



## REDDOGTWO

paul webster said:


> They fill the minimun wage jobs that us as American will not do... look at Mcdonalds next time you ordera BIG MAC... or any CONSTRUCTION SITE !!! I dont remember the price of homes going down, or a builder telling me he would give me a better price because he used undocumented labor, they charge more and pocket the difference,they also pay a big portion of our social security, I might ad also that alot of them use false social security cards and will never get any of the money, so it becomes surplus... I dont remember seeing any of you guys picking fruit or vegetables in our farm fields !!!! So what do all you legal eagles have to say about US AS AMERICANS BEING TWO SIDED AND SAYING , KICK ALL OFTHEM OUT, BUT WHEN YOU HAVE TO PAY MORE AT MCDONALDS,BURGER KIBG, OR TO BUY A NEW HOME, OR GROCERIES AT THE LOCAL CUB FOODS YOU WILL HAVE A DIFFERENT TUNE, YOU WILL BITCH TO NO END !!!! I GUARANTEE IT........ JUST A THOUGHT


 
You are just driving by the wrong farm fields, we till, plant, weed, pick, wash, sort and sell all of our vegetables without the benefit of any undocumented workers.  Come to think of it, we hardly have any workers at all.  Even if we could, have not even tried, to get cheap labor, we would not hire it.

I would welcome the fact, that the people that are here illegally would get sent home, that way I could get a better price for my vegetables and would be on a even keel with the scumbags that hire these folks.

As an American citizen, I have the right to earn an honest living without the interference of a bunch of people who cannot even speak English and are here without the proper entry into this country.


----------



## Deadly Sushi

Right now the system isnt working. What WE feel is right isnt justice. Law doesnt equal justice nor the other way around. I partly feel this is a case of the government letting its citizens down for more votes ANNNND the corporations letting us down because of more profits ANNNNND some American parents letting both down by not instilling that a dollar is worth busting your ass for it sometimes.
But this Country WILL adjust without our illegal invaders!  They are using scare tactics and its bullshit.  (again... keeping the attractive women   )


----------



## Bobcat

Seen scratched into truck stop restroom stall wall near Grants, NM...



> Eat sh*t American Truckers, we take your job, Acapulco Gro.


----------



## Deadly Sushi

Decent English though. They are learning.


----------



## California

The one I liked was at a roadside rest area halfway across Nevada on I80. One of the most lonesome places in America, where people died 150 years ago when they didn't make it across the next 40 miles of desert to the nearest water.

Here I sit
With a broken heart
Ate my pills
and my truck won't start.

And scratched below that:

If those pills were any damn good you would drag the damn truck all the way to Reno.

I saw that myself, then later saw it quoted in some national publication. I think it's the all time classic of rest area graffiti!


----------



## bczoom

paul webster said:


> Are you really serious, I really hope you dont believe we are  a soverign nation...





paul webster said:


> I do believe in America, and if you dont believe in US constitution, what do you believe in, ???


So, which way is it for you?
Why don't you believe we're a sovereign nation?



Cityboy said:


> Be civil in your disagreements and use lower case letters except for beginning sentences and proper nouns, etc., and you you won't upset BC Zoom so much.  He's a grumpy little dude sometimes.
> 
> This is a pretty civil bunch overall, except for that Zoom character.
> ...
> Just don't post any links for him to click....that releases his inner bitch. And you don't wanna see that! :nosee:


I resemble those statements.    What's your point?


----------



## paul webster

waybomb said:


> I want to know as well, because I hear this argument all the time.
> 
> And lay off the caps Paul Webster?


  What part of the constitution do you not understand, if they are on our soil, illegal or not, they have rights !!!  whether you or I like it or not...... if they are then there is due process, what part of due process do you guys NOT understand, My opinion does not mattter, its not what we know, its what we can prove by the preponderance of the evidence.


----------



## paul webster

fogtender said:


> *We the People* of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
> 
> *Article II*
> 
> *Section 1*
> 
> 5: No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.
> 
> -------------------------------------
> 
> *This is a really neat thing to read, nowhere does it say that people that come here illegally are allowed the same rights as it's citizens.*
> 
> *Article II, Section 1, Paragraph 5.* is the definition of what an American citizen is, one that was born here or here at the time of the Adoption of the Constitution. It wasn't until later that the issue of having people coming here apply for citizenship was established.
> 
> *Illegals were and are just that, Illegals and they have no constitutional rights, period....*


You are absolutely wrong if you believe that they have no rights,you are illegal at some point in time also, Remember, Remember,All, of youthat All of you and I are decended fromImmigrants and revolutionists,  Winston Churchill


----------



## Tractors4u

paul webster said:


> You are absolutely wrong if you believe that they have no rights,you are illegal at some point in time also, Remember, Remember,All, of youthat All of you and I are decended fromImmigrants and revolutionists, Winston Churchill


 

You are absolutely 100% WRONG!  I am not illegal, nor have I ever been.  

Me, I am talking about me,  I am not talking about relatives that come over 200 years ago before we had immigration laws.  

I am not sure about your point with the Constitution.  No, we can't rape, kill or steal from someone just because they are not a citizen of the country or if they are here illegally.  Are you telling me that the Constitution of the United States affords them the same rights as any U.S. citizen?  If I refuse to hire an illegal based on his race, relegion, etc etc, can he sue me?  

If they have the Constitutional rights as I do, being a natural born citizen of the U.S., then what is the difference be me, and them, other than the accent?


----------



## alaska120

Thank you!


----------



## paul webster

I think we should just do what alot of you guys here want, lets do this ! lets have the President start Military Law, have all the soldiers start rounding up people, and if they dont have their documents on their person they are automatically SHOT ON THE SPOT, but lets not play favorites here, any and ALL people are subject to this with out any subjection to race, or age or color, and If I am on the streets with out my papers I will be shot on the spot to, all grandmas, grand fathers, young and old alike, where would you guys like to start, what state, ALASKA, Wisconsin, Colorado ? where, THIS IS WHAT YOU GUYS SOUND LIKE......


----------



## paul webster

Tractors4u said:


> You are absolutely 100% WRONG! I am not illegal, nor have I ever been.
> 
> Me, I am talking about me, I am not talking about relatives that come over 200 years ago before we had immigration laws.
> 
> I am not sure about your point with the Constitution. No, we can't rape, kill or steal from someone just because they are not a citizen of the country or if they are here illegally. Are you telling me that the Constitution of the United States affords them the same rights as any U.S. citizen? If I refuse to hire an illegal based on his race, relegion, etc etc, can he sue me?
> 
> If they have the Constitutional rights as I do, being a natural born citizen of the U.S., then what is the difference be me, and them, other than the accent?


Mr truck guy, your ancestors are illegal, whether you like it or not, same as me,the US broke the treaties, the white man stole this country from the American indians, so, unless you are a native indian, you too are illegal, like me...


----------



## REDDOGTWO

paul webster said:


> Mr truck guy, your ancestors are illegal, whether you like it or not, same as me,the US broke the treaties, the white man stole this country from the American indians, so, unless you are a native indian, you too are illegal, like me...


 
As I stated before, the Native American did not have any real estate or immigration laws, therefore the founding fathers did not do anything illegal when they came to this country.  How can you break a law that is not there?

How can you steal something that at the time no one claimed they owned?

My ancestors did not come to this country until the late 1800's and the early 1900's, so how could they break the law when they followed all of the immigration laws?

I do go along with shooting the illegals on sight after a twenty four hour period just to verify that they are in the country illegally.  I do believe that we finally have a consensus.


----------



## paul webster

Boy, you must be really either in the dark or never studied American History, if we did not break any laws, then why did the white man feel that we had to enter into any land and peace treaties with the american indians ???? And then break them I might ad, but thats another debate....


----------



## paul webster

REDDOGTWO said:


> As I stated before, the Native American did not have any real estate or immigration laws, therefore the founding fathers did not do anything illegal when they came to this country. How can you break a law that is not there?
> 
> How can you steal something that at the time no one claimed they owned?
> 
> My ancestors did not come to this country until the late 1800's and the early 1900's, so how could they break the law when they followed all of the immigration laws?
> 
> I do go along with shooting the illegals on sight after a twenty four hour period just to verify that they are in the country illegally. I do believe that we finally have a consensus.


there were not any immigration laws back then , read your own double negative....


----------



## REDDOGTWO

paul webster said:


> Boy, you must be really either in the dark or never studied American History, if we did not break any laws, then why did the white man feel that we had to enter into any land and peace treaties with the american indians ???? And then break them I might ad, but thats another debate....


 
Did quite well in history, both in high school and college.  I do not feel that I am in the dark or ever had been.

What laws did they break?  There were no laws at the time that were broken as they was no law against what they did.

The reason that there were peace treaties with the Native Americans was it was a lot easier than annihilating the whole population, as far as the treaties being broken, they were just renegotiated. 

The Native Americans that were relocated, how do you think that they came to be where they were, they just relocated the Native population that was there before they were.  This is the history of mankind, if you want an area, you go in and take it if possible.

That is the whole problem, the rest of the population of the world like what they see here and are trying to take over the United States.  We are being invaded by hordes of people who want to live here and push us out, the problem being is that there are to many that claim that they have rights beyond what is given to them in our Constitution and continue to help them obtain their goal.  It is a conspiracy to take over our country.


----------



## paul webster

Sir ,WE, stole North America form the indians, sad, but true, then we put them on reservations....  this debate has become old, even for a retired fly fisherman like me......... can anyone tell me how to delete the e-mails from coming, I had 26 from forums at 9am today, thanks


----------



## REDDOGTWO

paul webster said:


> Sir ,WE, stole North America form the indians, sad, but true, then we put them on reservations.... this debate has become old, even for a retired fly fisherman like me......... can anyone tell me how to delete the e-mails from coming, I had 26 from forums at 9am today, thanks


 
The island of Manhattan was purchased from the Native Americans for the price of sixty guilders.  A lot of the other parts of this country was also purchased from the Native population.  This is not stealing.  Read a history book on some of these purchases, it is there.

How can someone in good conscience claim that we stole this country from the Native Americans who had stolen parts of it from other Native Americans and then turn around and try to defend the invading army that we now have.

If you do not believe that it is an invading army, look at the gangs in the LA area and how they have taken over parts of the city.


----------



## paul webster

REDDOGTWO said:


> The island of Manhattan was purchased from the Native Americans for the price of sixty guilders. A lot of the other parts of this country was also purchased from the Native population. This is not stealing. Read a history book on some of these purchases, it is there.
> 
> How can someone in good conscience claim that we stole this country from the Native Americans who had stolen parts of it from other Native Americans and then turn around and try to defend the invading army that we now have.
> 
> If you do not believe that it is an invading army, look at the gangs in the LA area and how they have taken over parts of the city.


You cant really be from N.D, Immigration is this, if someone enters with out inspection, they are here illegally, period...  they have rights to rectify the situation, 90 days to leave, or get the10 year ban, but there are some exceptions, and that is the point I am trying to get across to you guys, I do not have all the answers, I just know that everone, legal or not has the right to due process,and legal representation, reguardless if its for a parking ticket, illegal entry,or murder, they have that right here in the United States.....


----------



## paul webster

It was estimated about 25 $ if I remember, but it was by the dutch and it was a barter situation


----------



## REDDOGTWO

paul webster said:


> You cant really be from N.D, Immigration is this, if someone enters with out inspection, they are here illegally, period... they have rights to rectify the situation, 90 days to leave, or get the10 year ban, but there are some exceptions, and that is the point I am trying to get across to you guys, I do not have all the answers, I just know that everone, legal or not has the right to due process,and legal representation, reguardless if its for a parking ticket, illegal entry,or murder, they have that right here in the United States.....


 
Why, if I may ask, can I not be from North Dakota?

Here is a link to the definition of Immigration, please note that immigration and illegal immigration are two different things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration


----------



## fogtender

paul webster said:


> You are absolutely wrong if you believe that they have no rights,you are illegal at some point in time also, Remember, Remember,All, of youthat All of you and I are decended fromImmigrants and revolutionists, Winston Churchill


 
My Great Grandmother was Cherokee and was on the "Trail of tears" when her, her brother and mom took off with my Great Grandfather (Who was a white guy from Germany and suppose to be a guide for the Army) and went to the Pacific Northwest.

Before the Whiteman showed up in America (good or bad), the locals that were here, had been killing each other for centuries, just like in Europe.  Nothing new except that the Locals lost this war with the new guys.  That is history, I didn't have anything to do with it, nor do I feel bad about it because there isn't anything I can do about it.  

Same for Slavery, I wasn't for it, didn't have anything to do with it, but it is over and done with and everyone needs to get over with it.

A person can go anywhere in America (that is legally here) and make a go of it and become successful.  

But why is someone like you trying to keep them down by saying it is ok for others to come here illegally and take that chance from them.


----------



## REDDOGTWO

paul webster said:


> It was estimated about 25 $ if I remember, but it was by the dutch and it was a barter situation


 

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/41/415.html


----------



## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

fogtender said:


> Same for Slavery, I wasn't for it, didn't have anything to do with it, but it is over and done with and everyone needs to get over with it.
> 
> A person can go anywhere in America (that is legally here) and make a go of it and become successful.
> 
> But why is someone like you trying to keep them down by saying it is ok for others to come here illegally and take that chance from them.


 
Very well said!

What about the Kennewick man? I'm pretty sure I'm descended from him so the whole damn place is mine.  Y'all better get the hell out!


----------



## fogtender

paul webster said:


> I think we should just do what alot of you guys here want, lets do this ! lets have the President start Military Law, have all the soldiers start rounding up people, and if they dont have their documents on their person they are automatically SHOT ON THE SPOT, but lets not play favorites here, any and ALL people are subject to this with out any subjection to race, or age or color, and If I am on the streets with out my papers I will be shot on the spot to, all grandmas, grand fathers, young and old alike, where would you guys like to start, what state, ALASKA, Wisconsin, Colorado ? where, THIS IS WHAT YOU GUYS SOUND LIKE......


 
You really are starting to lose the grasp of what America is about... 

Emigrants are welcome here legally, not illegally. 

How we got to this point in time, doesn't really matter now, we are here, and we have established laws to protect ourselves as American citizens. 

We have the right to protect our boarders with deadly force if required and it may come to that in due time because of people with your mindset is how wars get started, things get to far out of hand until it is too late.

The fire of illegal emigration is past the point of a small fire, it has engulfed a room and the house has a good chance of burning to the ground... at what point do you do something about it?


----------



## bczoom

paul webster said:


> You cant really be from N.D, Immigration is this, if someone enters with out inspection, they are here illegally, period...  they have rights to rectify the situation, 90 days to leave, or get the10 year ban, but there are some exceptions, and that is the point I am trying to get across to you guys, I do not have all the answers, I just know that everone, legal or not has the right to due process,and legal representation, reguardless if its for a parking ticket, illegal entry,or murder, they have that right here in the United States.....


OK, if I concede that they get due process (before being sent back across the border for being here illegally), will you concede they have no damn right to be here in the first place?  Do they have the right of using our school system, SSI, welfare...?


----------



## RedRocker

This land thing kinda works like this, who ever has the biggest guns, gets the land. It's still true today, China could come over and take all this away from us, then we could bitch about that. Stone age cultures don't stand a chance against technologically advanced ones. We don't really know who was on this land in the beginning, some guy with his bare hands lost it to the guy with the stone club who lost it to the guy with the arrow etc.
 Now, I have to admit that the Mexicans are doing a pretty good job of invading the US w/o firing a shot, well, except the gangs and robberies.
See, they think it's theirs too, or was it the Spanish or French? It's never ending.


----------



## fogtender

paul webster said:


> You are absolutely wrong if you believe that they have no rights,you are illegal at some point in time also, Remember, Remember,All, of youthat All of you and I are decended fromImmigrants and revolutionists, Winston Churchill


 

Maybe you should get a copy of the Constitution out and read it. 

Winston Churchill was an "American Citizen" because if I recall correctly, his mother was an American.  But he was loyal to the Crown, so his view of the American Constitution is pretty mute... so why would you quote him, that is no different than Quoting Hitler on American policy.

Regardless, the Indians lost the war and the rest of us won. Get over it. Even the Indians won in the long run, they have rights that we as the "Average" American don't have.  They can get a free college education and go anywhere they want with it, or back to the Reservation and get drunk, it is a free choice.

The Mexicans have declared a silent war on us and are doing the same thing. When do you figure that we should start fighting back, or just run up a white flag?


----------



## ddrane2115

paul webster said:


> I think we should just do what alot of you guys here want, lets do this ! lets have the President start Military Law, have all the soldiers start rounding up people, and if they dont have their documents on their person they are automatically SHOT ON THE SPOT, but lets not play favorites here, any and ALL people are subject to this with out any subjection to race, or age or color, and If I am on the streets with out my papers I will be shot on the spot to, all grandmas, grand fathers, young and old alike, where would you guys like to start, what state, ALASKA, Wisconsin, Colorado ? where, THIS IS WHAT YOU GUYS SOUND LIKE......


 
you are so out of your league on this.  NO ONE has said anything about military law, or shooting illegals.................lets just send them the heck HOME to their own land where they are legal!   And NO we dont want them to come back unless and until they do it legally......     YOU really need to get a grip on yourself here.  My guess is you ARE an illegal, or have illegals that you are protecting........cause you sure act like it.


----------



## ddrane2115

paul webster said:


> Mr truck guy, your ancestors are illegal, whether you like it or not, same as me,the US broke the treaties, the white man stole this country from the American indians, so, unless you are a native indian, you too are illegal, like me...


 

I knew it, you are Native American!   And you have a grudge.


----------



## ddrane2115

paul webster said:


> Sir ,WE, stole North America form the indians, sad, but true, then we put them on reservations.... this debate has become old, even for a retired fly fisherman like me......... can anyone tell me how to delete the e-mails from coming, I had 26 from forums at 9am today, thanks


 

you started this.


----------



## ddrane2115

paul webster said:


> You cant really be from N.D, Immigration is this, if someone enters with out inspection, they are here illegally, period... they have rights to rectify the situation, 90 days to leave, or get the10 year ban, but there are some exceptions, and that is the point I am trying to get across to you guys, I do not have all the answers, I just know that everone, legal or not has the right to due process,and legal representation, reguardless if its for a parking ticket, illegal entry,or murder, they have that right here in the United States.....


 

for crying out loud, you now want to give those that have violated the laws of OUR country for years, 90 more days to comply............get real, they wont do it, so we SHOULD at least enforce the laws AGAINST them coming in the first place and make sure they dont come back.  

as a person with lots of contract work to be done on my home.........one stipulation is going to be EVERYONE ON THE JOB MUST HAVE LEGAL STATUS AT THE TIME OF THE PROJECT TILL THE END.   THEY WILL HAVE TO PRODUCE SS CARDS AND DL OR OTHER ID, OR THE JOB WILL BE STOPPED.

2 reasons, one I dont want to get sued by someone NOT covered by workers comp insurance.  two, I want those working to be paying taxes, and to be legally here.  I dont give a rats ass what color, creed, nationality, or sex they are............they MUST be legal.   

If I find one not, he and his employer will be reported immediately.


----------



## paul webster

ddrane2115 said:


> I knew it, you are Native American! And you have a grudge.


You are wrong again, I am not a native american, but if I was I would say. if anyone on this forum has the F_ _ _k _ _n _ _tttttttttttt S to meet me for breakfast, I will prove to that the illegals have rights, case law.. are there any other lawyers on this site who care to jump in this bucket of yak manure conversation....... Mr dddrane, the day you believe in the bill of rights, is the day you will believe that PEOPLE have rights, ALL, not just you and I as "White" caucasion Americans.....MY grudge is against the F------G coyotes.........  by the way, My last name is Webster, NOT running blue feather......  when was the last time you met a indian with a name  like that.........


----------



## mak2

Why are you so hot to meet us or call us etc?  Why are you so animated and angry?  Are you a troll?  I bet you are really Doc getting some action going on the fourm.  Really what is the deal?


----------



## paul webster

PBinWA said:


> Very well said!
> 
> What about the Kennewick man? I'm pretty sure I'm descended from him so the whole damn place is mine. Y'all better get the hell out!


Hope you dont really believe that slavery is done and over with in this country, because its not......   its alive and thriving, see 60 minutes 3 weeks ago in San Francisco,the mayor was going into flop houses on live Sf tv, all the women brought here from the phillipines illegally for prostitution,  Brasilians in Boston & NY, and the Mexican women in Texas....... the list is endless.......


----------



## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

paul webster said:


> You are wrong again, I am not a native american, but if I was I would say. if anyone on this forum has the F_ _ _k _ _n _ _tttttttttttt S to meet me for breakfast, I will prove to that the illegals have rights, case law.. are there any other lawyers on this site who care to jump in this bucket of yak manure conversation....... Mr dddrane, the day you believe in the bill of rights, is the day you will believe that PEOPLE have rights, ALL, not just you and I as "White" caucasion Americans.....MY grudge is against the F------G coyotes......... by the way, My last name is Webster, NOT running blue feather...... when was the last time you met a indian with a name like that.........


 
There are lots of native indians with "anglo" names.  My brother in law is one.  Maybe you need to look within and see that perhaps you don't know everything.

What's with the veiled threats?  Why not just present your case here and see if you can argue a case outside of your comfort zone?


----------



## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

paul webster said:


> Hope you dont really believe that slavery is done and over with in this country, because its not...... its alive and thriving, see 60 minutes 3 weeks ago in San Francisco,the mayor was going into flop houses on live Sf tv, all the women brought here from the phillipines illegally for prostitution, Brasilians in Boston & NY, and the Mexican women in Texas....... the list is endless.......


 
Still a small percentage when compared to the vast numbers that enter willingly.  We are not denying these people justice and fair treatment.  We want the people that come here voluntarily and illegally to leave.


----------



## paul webster

Thank GOD finally a guy here who has made a intelligent response.... the problem is that the government has made the laws so they wont leave..... the 10 yr ban is a carnival ride at best, and the 90 day law is a complete joke, customs catches them at the border, photos & fingerprints them, them gives the a piece of paper with a immigration court date, boy, there's our law makers at there best, just so you guys know, I really am a real guy, not doc, or even a TROLL, but I have been called worse, by a Coyote, just unfortunately I believe in Human rights and will fight for them, no mater if the person is here WOI  "with out inspection" or not....... Paul


----------



## Bulldog1401

High school kides could get a decent job again...and our taxes would go down...and our children would not flunk english class becaouse they didn't know enough of their (manditory spanish)language....


----------



## RedRocker

paul webster said:


> Thank GOD finally a guy here who has made a intelligent response....



 I'm afraid your assessment on someone else's intelligence doesn't carry much weight.


----------



## paul webster

RedRocker said:


> I'm afraid your assessment on someone else's intelligence doesn't carry much weight.


  It does if that person is in court with me and the judge asks me a question abut there actions...........


----------



## Tractors4u

paul webster said:


> It does if that person is in court with me and the judge asks me a question abut there actions...........


 
Mr. Webster,

You have taken the "shotgun approach" to this argument.  You are all over the place and are approaching this from every angle possible in the hope that one of your techniques will work.  At first you seemed like a middle of the road guy who had kind of a "live and let live" approach to the illegals.  Then you used the argument that they did great things and when questioned about that, your reply was that picked fruit and did construction work.  Your next approach for defending them was the Constitution.  You then tried to spin the illegal discussion into a "We stole this land from the Indians" argument.  Your most recent angle has been the Coyote angle.  I will concede that coyote type events happen, but as someone else stated, they are a small percentage of the overall illegal problem and if these people are brought in against their will, we should politely help them get back to their families as they are innocent victims of a horrible crime.  

Is this the way you handle a case in a court room?  If so, does the jury have a hard time keeping up with you?  Are you typically successful?


----------



## Bulldog1401

Well said.


----------



## Glink

You know we really can't say that the criminal aliens don't have rights and not be hypocrites in that statement. In relation to 2nd amendment arguments, I have seen it argued and agree that we do not draw our rights from the constitution. The Constitution guarantees rights that are unalienable and creator given. As such any alleged criminals have rights under that Constitution. However in the case of the criminal illegals I believe their rights are limited to due process to determine their legal status, and a fu*&ing bus ticket south. I do not want my tax dollars spent to protect their rights further than that. It is the job of their government to acknowledge and protect their rights not mine. (Granted the collusion between our corrupt and incompetent government, and theirs, probably diminishes the rights they enjoy at home) But that is the subject of a different debate.


----------



## paul webster

Glink said:


> You know we really can't say that the criminal aliens don't have rights and not be hypocrites in that statement. In relation to 2nd amendment arguments, I have seen it argued and agree that we do not draw our rights from the constitution. The Constitution guarantees rights that are unalienable and creator given. As such any alleged criminals have rights under that Constitution. However in the case of the criminal illegals I believe their rights are limited to due process to determine their legal status, and a fu*&ing bus ticket south. I do not want my tax dollars spent to protect their rights further than that. It is the job of their government to acknowledge and protect their rights not mine. (Granted the collusion between our corrupt and incompetent government, and theirs, probably diminishes the rights they enjoy at home) But that is the subject of a different debate.


 Then I urge you to write to your congressman..........


----------



## paul webster

Tractors4u said:


> Mr. Webster,
> 
> You have taken the "shotgun approach" to this argument. You are all over the place and are approaching this from every angle possible in the hope that one of your techniques will work. At first you seemed like a middle of the road guy who had kind of a "live and let live" approach to the illegals. Then you used the argument that they did great things and when questioned about that, your reply was that picked fruit and did construction work. Your next approach for defending them was the Constitution. You then tried to spin the illegal discussion into a "We stole this land from the Indians" argument. Your most recent angle has been the Coyote angle. I will concede that coyote type events happen, but as someone else stated, they are a small percentage of the overall illegal problem and if these people are brought in against their will, we should politely help them get back to their families as they are innocent victims of a horrible crime.
> 
> Is this the way you handle a case in a court room? If so, does the jury have a hard time keeping up with you? Are you typically successful?


Them write to your congressman and try to change the laws to get them out or nothing short of shot by your standards....As to you court room question: Any lawyer will tell you that a Bad settlement is better than a roll of the dice with a jury.....I.E. any monetary settlement is beter than the possibility of 0% from the jury....


----------



## paul webster

Dont get me wrong here, I thought this was a discussion ? If you people would really like to see the illegals leave voluntarily, do this, cut off all public assistance..... Period. CUT OFF WESTERN UNION, AND MONEYGRAM TO ALL PEOPLE WHO ARE UNDOCUMENTED SENDING U.S. MONEY OUT OF OUR COUNTRY, thats why they are here, to work and send money out,and they do send it out in hoards, WRITE TO YOUR CONGRESSMAN TO TRY AND GET LAWS PASSED FOR, SEVERE PENALTIES TO COMPANIES WHO HIRE UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS, AND ENFORCE THEM.....


----------



## RedRocker

All that needs to be done is enforce the laws that are on the books.


----------



## paul webster

RedRocker said:


> All that needs to be done is enforce the laws that are on the books.


  You are right , but that will never happen, if you call I.C.E. ( immigration and customs enforcement), you will be hard pressed to get some one who cares or they say they will take a report and then investigate within 90 days........


----------



## mobilus

Important tax reminder: Don't forget to pay your taxes...... 



¡Muchas gracias! 



21 million illegal aliens are depending on on you


----------



## paul webster

NOW that sounds like something doc would say to stir the pot


----------



## mak2

paul webster said:


> NOW that sounds like something doc would say to stir the pot



How do you know, I still think you are Doc.


----------



## Deadly Sushi

Bottom line. Illegals are illegal. They are robbing America. Yet they try to scare its citizens by taking crappy jobs and say "what if we left". 
I say "what if we right"!!!!  wait......


----------



## paul webster

This has become nothing short of thrying to have a debate with a few 4 yr olds, their favorite word is why........


----------



## Bobcat

I take exception to that...Sushi is 12 years old.


----------



## Glink

and his favorite word is "hotchicks"


----------



## Big Dog

*WHAT IF 20 MILLION ILLEGAL ALIENS VACATED AMERICA?*

*probably this ......................*

*Mexican Tourism*


----------



## ddrane2115

paul webster said:


> You are wrong again, I am not a native american, but if I was I would say. if anyone on this forum has the F_ _ _k _ _n _ _tttttttttttt S to meet me for breakfast, I will prove to that the illegals have rights, case law.. are there any other lawyers on this site who care to jump in this bucket of yak manure conversation....... Mr dddrane, the day you believe in the bill of rights, is the day you will believe that PEOPLE have rights, ALL, not just you and I as "White" caucasion Americans.....MY grudge is against the F------G coyotes......... by the way, My last name is Webster, NOT running blue feather...... when was the last time you met a indian with a name like that.........


 

uh, the last time I met one with his American name....and for the record they are native american, not Indian, since they would not be from India......and if you can not talk without the foul language, I suggest you not talk.  

Illegals dont have the right to be here.  If I as a legal were to ask for what they get, I would get laughed at!  See I pay taxes, pay doctor bills, pay for my mortgage on my own, have a car that I pay insurance on, have a drivers license, car tags, a legal job, and not one that I have to hide when the "man" comes around.  If I get hurt my workers comp kicks in, not the free medical they get.  

IF AND ONLY IF they have applied legally are they legally here, any other existance here is ILLEGAL, and they along with their employers should be punished......them with deported and the employer with HEAVY DUTY fines..........not talkin pocket change here folks.

You can not go in their country and get what they get here................


----------



## Bobcat

paul webster said:


> You are wrong again, I am not a native american, but if I was I would say. if anyone on this forum has the F_ _ _k _ _n _ _tttttttttttt S to meet me for breakfast, I will prove to that the illegals have rights, case law.. are there any other lawyers on this site who care to jump in this bucket of yak manure conversation....... Mr dddrane, the day you believe in the bill of rights, is the day you will believe that PEOPLE have rights, ALL, not just you and I as "White" caucasion Americans.....MY grudge is against the F------G coyotes.........  by the way, My last name is Webster, NOT running blue feather......  when was the last time you met a indian with a name  like that.........



I have nuts. I am currently in the 'Mountains of Colorado'. I am no scholar, legal or otherwise, but I'd like to discuss the differences between human rights and the constitution/bill of rights, as well as a nations right to rule of law and sovereignty, that kind of thing. How about brunch?


----------



## bczoom

paul webster said:


> This has become nothing short of thrying to have a debate with a few 4 yr olds, their favorite word is why........


All of the "why" questions are directed to you.  "Why" do you have the position you do and why do you think they should be here?  Also, why don't you answer any of the questions posed to you?


----------



## Bobcat

Glink said:


> You know we really can't say that the criminal aliens don't have rights and not be hypocrites in that statement. In relation to 2nd amendment arguments, I have seen it argued and agree that we do not draw our rights from the constitution. The Constitution guarantees rights that are unalienable and creator given. As such any alleged criminals have rights under that Constitution. However in the case of the criminal illegals I believe their rights are limited to due process to determine their legal status, and a fu*&ing bus ticket south. I do not want my tax dollars spent to protect their rights further than that. It is the job of their government to acknowledge and protect their rights not mine. (Granted the collusion between our corrupt and incompetent government, and theirs, probably diminishes the rights they enjoy at home) But that is the subject of a different debate.



I agree with all of this except...I believe it was the Declaration of Independence that expressed our (and everyone elses) inalienable (and God given) rights while the U. S. Constitution defined our (and no one elses) legal rights.

If I have it wrong, someone bap me on the side of the head, please.


----------



## Bobcat

bobpierce said:


> I have nuts. I am currently in the 'Mountains of Colorado'. I am no scholar, legal or otherwise, but I'd like to discuss the differences between human rights and the constitution/bill of rights, as well as a nations right to rule of law and sovereignty, that kind of thing. How about brunch?




Turns out I even have an extra set. 

http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showthread.php?t=13518


----------



## RedRocker

paul webster said:


> You are wrong again, I am not a native american, but if I was I would say. if anyone on this forum has the F_ _ _k _ _n _ _tttttttttttt S to meet me for breakfast, I will prove to that the illegals have rights, case law.. are there any other lawyers on this site who care to jump in this bucket of yak manure conversation....... Mr dddrane, the day you believe in the bill of rights, is the day you will believe that PEOPLE have rights, ALL, not just you and I as "White" caucasion Americans.....MY grudge is against the F------G coyotes......... by the way, My last name is Webster, NOT running blue feather...... when was the last time you met a indian with a name like that......
> 
> *I believe you've had a taker on your breakfast offer.*


----------



## REDDOGTWO

paul webster said:


> You are wrong again, I am not a native american, but if I was I would say. if anyone on this forum has the F_ _ _k _ _n _ _tttttttttttt S to meet me for breakfast, I will prove to that the illegals have rights, case law.. are there any other lawyers on this site who care to jump in this bucket of yak manure conversation....... Mr dddrane, the day you believe in the bill of rights, is the day you will believe that PEOPLE have rights, ALL, not just you and I as "White" caucasion Americans.....MY grudge is against the F------G coyotes......... by the way, My last name is Webster, NOT running blue feather...... when was the last time you met a indian with a name like that.........


 
Not to try to stir the pot here, but are we not being just a little bit prejudicial in our statements here, not all Native Americans have a last name that would indicate just by the name that they are Native American.

The fact is that some Native American tribes have become so integrated with the round eyes that in some tribes there are a lot of blond people who are at least one half Native American.


----------



## Snowcat Operations

paul webster said:


> You are wrong again, I am not a native american, but if I was I would say. if anyone on this forum has the F_ _ _k _ _n _ _tttttttttttt S to meet me for breakfast, I will prove to that the illegals have rights, case law.. are there any other lawyers on this site who care to jump in this bucket of yak manure conversation....... Mr dddrane, the day you believe in the bill of rights, is the day you will believe that PEOPLE have rights, ALL, not just you and I as "White" caucasion Americans.....MY grudge is against the F------G coyotes.........  by the way, My last name is Webster, NOT running blue feather......  when was the last time you met a indian with a name  like that.........







Sorry guys I'm jumping in here late.  

Paul.  I will be back in Colorado today.  Not sure if your invite is still good for men with "F_ _ _k _ _n _ _tttttttttttt S".  But I would gladly have a discussion with you on the Illegal infestation of our country!


----------



## mak2

I think Mr Webster will disappear soon if not already.  Dont you guys think he was some sort of troll or somthing to get the fourm busier.  Kinda fun.


----------



## REDDOGTWO

mak2 said:


> I think Mr Webster will disappear soon if not already. Dont you guys think he was some sort of troll or somthing to get the fourm busier. Kinda fun.


 
He sounds like a defense lawyer, spelling, capitalization and pointing out my double negative and after reading it again, I still could not see it. 

Very liberal bias just like a defense lawyer, my personal preference would be the Dirty Harry approach, but what the heck.


----------



## mak2

REDDOGTWO said:


> He sounds like a defense lawyer, spelling, capitalization and pointing out my double negative and after reading it again, I still could not see it.
> 
> Very liberal bias just like a defense lawyer, my personal preference would be the Dirty Harry approach, but what the heck.


----------



## mtntopper

mak2 said:


> I think Mr Webster will disappear soon if not already. Dont you guys think he was some sort of troll or somthing to get the fourm busier. Kinda fun.


 
Paul is real. I had several telephone conversations with him about snow cats prior to this thread in late December. He does live in Colorado and I do believe he was a lawyer at one time and is now retired. His opinion is his and we all need to remain civil even when we disagree with him and he needs to do likewise. 

I stayed out of this debate because I have spent considerable time around a working Hispanic population and worked side by side with them on various projects. The ones I was around were very good and caring people who were proud to be in the US and providing for their families. I am not sure how many were even legally here but many were doing jobs in that area that no one else would do. That is a fact. Even with our high unemployment in many areas of the US, many of the people who are unemployed view certain jobs as beneath their dignity and these people are doing those jobs. 

The ones here illegally, on welfare, draining our system and not working should and need to be sent back home. The ones here that are trying to fit in to our society and make a better life by working should have the ability to gain citizenship some how and some way. I do not have the answers and it appears very much like our government does not have an answer or a way to solve the problem at the present time. I do believe our economy would suffer gravely if all of the illegals are deported and that is the reason the government does not want to address the problem. Which ever party is in power and does take a deportation stand will suffer in the end as the economy will be hurt.

I am not taking sides in this debate. I am only expressing my views which have changed after working and being around certain possibly illegal immigrants from Mexico that were very honest and good people except for the immigration issue. We need to take a second look at how we perceive others and make sure we see the complete picture and not just a snap shot of our own thoughts and beliefs that have been told to us by others.

Okay now rip me up............


----------



## mak2

I have always thought they were good hard working people.  The point is the illegal ones are ILLEGAL.  And that is my only problem with the entire issue.  I dont think the lawbreakers should be grandfathered in and some legal ones have to wait.


----------



## ddrane2115

mtntopper said:


> Paul is real. I had several telephone conversations with him about snow cats prior to this thread in late December. He does live in Colorado and I do believe he was a lawyer at one time and is now retired. His opinion is his and we all need to remain civil even when we disagree with him and he needs to do likewise.
> 
> I stayed out of this debate because I have spent considerable time around a working Hispanic population and worked side by side with them on various projects. The ones I was around were very good and caring people who were proud to be in the US and providing for their families. I am not sure how many were even legally here but many were doing jobs in that area that no one else would do. That is a fact. Even with our high unemployment in many areas of the US, many of the people who are unemployed view certain jobs as beneath their dignity and these people are doing those jobs.
> 
> The ones here illegally, on welfare, draining our system and not working should and need to be sent back home. The ones here that are trying to fit in to our society and make a better life by working should have the ability to gain citizenship some how and some way. I do not have the answers and it appears very much like our government does not have an answer or a way to solve the problem at the present time. I do believe our economy would suffer gravely if all of the illegals are deported and that is the reason the government does not want to address the problem. Which ever party is in power and does take a deportation stand will suffer in the end as the economy will be hurt.
> 
> I am not taking sides in this debate. I am only expressing my views which have changed after working and being around certain possibly illegal immigrants from Mexico that were very honest and good people except for the immigration issue. We need to take a second look at how we perceive others and make sure we see the complete picture and not just a snap shot of our own thoughts and beliefs that have been told to us by others.
> 
> Okay now rip me up............


 

No ripping up from me, you make sense.   NO ONE has said anything about the 'legal immigrants' and I totally agree with you.  It is a shame that some "Americans by whatever' think some work, even if they dont have any, and below them.  I have dug ditches and worn a suit every day...........I like what I do now, nites watching computers work!


----------



## Snowcat Operations

REDDOGTWO said:


> Not to try to stir the pot here, but are we not being just a little bit prejudicial in our statements here, not all Native Americans have a last name that would indicate just by the name that they are Native American.
> 
> The fact is that some Native American tribes have become so integrated with the round eyes that in some tribes there are a lot of blond people who are at least one half Native American.


 


BINGO!  I am 1/4 Indian.  My Mom is 1/2.  BUT I am as white as they come!


----------



## REDDOGTWO

Snowcat Operations said:


> BINGO! I am 1/4 Indian. My Mom is 1/2. BUT I am as white as they come!


 
While going to college, I went out with a gal that was half white, half Indian.  You could not tell apart from anyone else, guess you could, blond hair and better looking.


----------



## Bulldog1401

mtntopper said:


> The ones here illegally, on welfare, draining our system and not working should and need to be sent back home. The ones here that are trying to fit in to our society and make a better life by working should have the ability to gain citizenship some how and some way.



I completely agree. We are all immigrants here to some degree. The ones that chose to become U.S. citizens through proper channels (for lack of a better term) are some of the ones that make this country great. 

I believe that they should all be welcomed as long as they want to become productive members of our society.


----------



## paul webster

Thanks MTN TPR, I appreciate the support while you tried to stay out of this one, my biggest contention is that if they are here, they have rights, if you and I like it or not...... the whole basis of our society is equal rights, there is due process of the system for the " illegals also" its called immigration court, or a I9, and there are several others also, with out this system we would have Anarchy, similar to the cold war era, Paul


----------



## mobilus

Let's say I break into your house...

A lady wrote the best letter in the Editorials in ages!!! It explains things better than all the baloney you hear on TV. 

Her point:
Recently large demonstrations have taken place across the country protesting the fact that Congress is finally addressing the issue of illegal immigration.

Certain people are angry that the US might protect its own borders, might make it harder to sneak into this country and, once here, to stay indefinitely. 

Let me see if I correctly understand the thinking behind these protests. 
Let's say I break into your house.
Let's say that when you discover me in your house, you insist that I leave. 
But I say, 'I've made all the beds and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors. I've done all the things you don't like to do. I'm hard-working and honest (except for when I broke into your house).

According to the protesters: 
You are Required to let me stay in your house You are Required to add me to your family's insurance plan You are Required to Educate my kids You are Required to Provide other benefits to me & to my family (my husband will do all of your yard work because he is also hard-working and honest, except for that breaking in part) .

If you try to call the police or force me out, I will call my friends who will picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my RIGHT to be there. 

It's only fair, after all, because you have a nicer house than I do, and I'm just trying to better myself. I'm a hard-working and honest, person, except for well, you know, I did break into your house. 
And what a deal it is for me!!! 

I live in your house, contributing only a fraction of the cost of my keep, and there is nothing you can do about it without being accused of cold, 
uncaring, selfish, prejudiced, and bigoted behavior.

Oh yeah, I DEMAND that you learn MY LANGUAGE!!! so you can communicate with me. 

Why can't people see how ridiculous this is?! 
Only in America .
Certainly not in Mexico.


----------



## Doc

Welcome to FF Mobilus!!!!  I'm glad you came on over.  

Good post.  It gets the point across in a way that is hard to miss.


----------



## paul webster

mobilus said:


> Let's say I break into your house...
> 
> A lady wrote the best letter in the Editorials in ages!!! It explains things better than all the baloney you hear on TV.
> 
> Her point:
> Recently large demonstrations have taken place across the country protesting the fact that Congress is finally addressing the issue of illegal immigration.
> 
> Certain people are angry that the US might protect its own borders, might make it harder to sneak into this country and, once here, to stay indefinitely.
> 
> Let me see if I correctly understand the thinking behind these protests.
> Let's say I break into your house.
> Let's say that when you discover me in your house, you insist that I leave.
> But I say, 'I've made all the beds and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors. I've done all the things you don't like to do. I'm hard-working and honest (except for when I broke into your house).
> 
> According to the protesters:
> You are Required to let me stay in your house You are Required to add me to your family's insurance plan You are Required to Educate my kids You are Required to Provide other benefits to me & to my family (my husband will do all of your yard work because he is also hard-working and honest, except for that breaking in part) .
> 
> If you try to call the police or force me out, I will call my friends who will picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my RIGHT to be there.
> 
> It's only fair, after all, because you have a nicer house than I do, and I'm just trying to better myself. I'm a hard-working and honest, person, except for well, you know, I did break into your house.
> And what a deal it is for me!!!
> 
> I live in your house, contributing only a fraction of the cost of my keep, and there is nothing you can do about it without being accused of cold,
> uncaring, selfish, prejudiced, and bigoted behavior.
> 
> Oh yeah, I DEMAND that you learn MY LANGUAGE!!! so you can communicate with me.
> 
> Why can't people see how ridiculous this is?!
> Only in America .
> Certainly not in Mexico.


  The only problem with your " hypothetical situation is thats what it is"  I deal in real situations in real courts with real people, you cant justify what you say in your minds eye type situation...  not to mention that if someone did break into a home they would be arrested for B & E and charged with a felony, in which case they would have a immigration hold for deportation, which is real.


----------



## fogtender

paul webster said:


> The only problem with your " hypothetical situation is thats what it is" I deal in real situations in real courts with real people, you cant justify what you say in your minds eye type situation... not to mention that if someone did break into a home they would be arrested for B & E and charged with a felony, in which case they would have a immigration hold for deportation, which is real.


 
I assume that you don't see the Illegals as criminals in the way they got here. Nobody here has any complaints about those that came here legally, and America in general has been with wide open arms for those that go though the system legally.

I would also assume that by your unfailing view that "We" as Americans that are legal residents of America by modern laws, are a mean and cruel people in wanting to kick out those that don't respect our Nation's imigration laws? 

You keep refering to what happened hundreds of years ago to which none of us here were a part of in establishing America as it is today. Even Mexico was overrun by the Spanish and most of it's citizens are from a Spanish heritage, not the South Americans whom were mostly killed by sword or deseases brought over from Europe. 

So what are your thoughts on the Spanish that killed most of the Mexican Indians then and put them into Slavery.... You seem to only view history from one view point, which is "America Bad"


----------



## mobilus

Mr. Webster,  your legalistic banter points out your obvious flaw: Refusal to see the forest for the trees.  Taken as an analogous commentary of the greater state of illegal immigration, I think that my last post is accurate.  

Breaking into house = illegal entry into the USA.  This isn't just wading across the Rio Grande, you know.  Human trafficking is big money, and the cargo comes from all over the world.

Staying indefinitely = obviously the goal of the vast majority of illegal immigrants.  Of those that you make reference to when you speak of deportation, how many have committed a felonious act?  The reality is, if an illegal immigrant stays out of trouble once he or she gets here, they're very unlikely to be deported.

Illegals DO get free medical care...and my young working-class daughter and her family DO NOT.  Unless they're still under their parents health insurance (acceptable if still in college), the number of young adults without health insurance coverage is staggering.  This isn't a plea for universal health insurance, but a reason to cut off the free-flowing spigot from which the illegal population sao readily take advantage.

Illegals DO send their kids to our schools...overloading the school infrastructure in many cases, while creating a fiscal burden on local governments.  Giving citizenship to a US-born child of illegal immigrants (criminals) is totally different than appling that priviledge to a child born on U.S. soil to parents in a legal immigration status.  

Suppose a girl is raped, a terrible unconscionable act in any regard, but the caveat is that the act was committed by a convicted felon.  This man crossed acceptable, established boundaries of ethical conduct, and he forced himself on someone, taking from her something that cannot be replaced, and leaving in its absence something that will always bring great pain.  This simply describes the rape of America's people through the uncontrolled losses of national pride, finances, and good judgment.  Once, "Made in America" meant something other than an addendum to the line that starts with "I got it..."  

And as far as Mexico is concerned, what incentive is there for the nation to advance its culture and infrastructure as a whole when it is waiting north of the border?


----------



## paul webster

Then the only advice I can give  your daughter is to write her congressman and complain, because if they are here they have the rights you are complaining about !!!  I dont clain to know the immigration answer, I am just saying that if they are here they have rights, period. if you and I dont like then we have to try and get it changed, its that simple. good luck if you write the letter to congressman/woman.


----------



## fogtender

paul webster said:


> Then the only advice I can give your daughter is to write her congressman and complain, because if they are here they have the rights you are complaining about !!! I dont clain to know the immigration answer, I am just saying that if they are here they have rights, period. if you and I dont like then we have to try and get it changed, its that simple. good luck if you write the letter to congressman/woman.


 
The only rights they have being here illegally is to be arrested, read their rights in accordance with being arrested, and deported at the time it is determined that they are not U.S. Citizens or here legally.  Ok, maybe given a fee cup of coffee while waiting for the bus and a sandwhich so they aren't starving.  The second time they are caught, they get to go home after spending time in prision would be a better deal at hard labor since they wanted to come here to work anyway.


----------



## paul webster

Well, all I can say is thats why you have the occupation that you have and I am a Lawyer, its obvious that you are one dimensional, if that in your thinking, not to mention that you have denied them the right to due process, and in the process have violated the 1st,4th and probobly the 6th amendment rights, so unless you understand the legal process and have spent time in a court your miniscule thought process means less than nothing, thats all it is,  that would never hold any water in any court, not even the court of public opinion.


----------



## fogtender

paul webster said:


> Well, all I can say is thats why you have the occupation that you have and I am a Lawyer, its obvious that you are one dimensional, if that in your thinking, not to mention that you have denied them the right to due process, and in the process have violated the 1st,4th and probobly the 6th amendment rights, so unless you understand the legal process and have spent time in a court your miniscule thought process means less than nothing, thats all it is, that would never hold any water in any court, not even the court of public opinion.


 
Awww, a lawyer... That explains why you are so much in favor of the illegals, you see money rolling in from bogus class action lawsuits.

When I was a police officer in my youth, I had to read the rights to alot of them. They got nothing but due process, and that was too much, because I was arresting them after stealing, knifing each other, selling drugs, stealing cars and assorted sex crimes. 

I am well aware of the legal process and it is guys like you that have morphed it into a real mess and the criminals have all the rights and the victims none. 

Do you have any idea how easy it would be for me catching an Illegal that had kidnapped a 6 year old and was raping her when I caught him to put a bullet though his head. I didn't, I did the arrest with all legal "Due Process" and he got off with a hand slap for all practical purposes because a slimey lawyer said he didn't understand our laws....

Nope, I can see why you are so much in favor of defending the illegals, it is a gold mine for you.... They get no simpathy from me or most of the rest of American's, we have enough slime here without it coming here illegally, and that is the first crime they commited...

Seems that you have nothing but elitist arrogance and contempt for those that are Americans, my "miniscule thought process" and background in the legal system was based in upholding the Laws of the United States, not Mexico.

By the way, I had a better than 95% criminal conviction rating in Court and no appeals overturned any of my cases... can you make that claim....  The Illegal that was cut free for kidnapping and rape was one of the few exceptions, in that he did time, but only 30 days then deported, so it was a poor win record on my part.


----------



## bczoom

Paul, 

Your last post is a personal attack.  Not tolerated...  Please stick with debating the issue.


----------



## mobilus

paul webster said:


> ...not to mention that you have denied them the right to due process, and in the process have violated the 1st,4th and probobly the 6th amendment rights


 
From wikipedia:

First Amendment: addresses the rights of freedom of religion (prohibiting Congressional establishment of a religion over another religion through Law and protecting the right to free exercise of religion), freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and freedom of petition. 


Fourth Amendment: guards against searches, arrests, and seizures of property without a specific warrant or a "probable cause" to believe a crime has been committed. Some rights to privacy have been inferred from this amendment and others by the Supreme Court.


Sixth Amendment: guarantees a speedy public trial for criminal offenses. It requires trial by a jury, guarantees the right to legal counsel for the accused, and guarantees that the accused may require witnesses to attend the trial and testify in the presence of the accused. It also guarantees the accused a right to know the charges against him. The Sixth Amendment has several court cases associated with it, including _Powell v. Alabama_, _United States v. Wong Kim Ark_, _Gideon v. Wainwright_, and _Crawford v. Washington_. In 1966, the Supreme Court ruled that the fifth amendment prohibition on forced self-incrimination and the sixth amendment clause on right to counsel were to be made known to all persons placed under arrest, and these clauses have become known as the Miranda rights. 

So, Mr. Webster, how does the first amendment apply to illegal immigrants?  

As to the Fourth Amendment, if a person has violated the borders of this country by committing the crime of illegal entry, probable cause for search, seizure, and arrest has been clearly proven.

And for the Sixth Amendment, this is the teat from which all defense attorneys suckle...especially in a cut-and-dried case such as illegal immigration.  If a person cannot prove his or her citizenship, then he or she should get exactly what the Sixth Amendment calls for: A speedy public trial.  

If you are indeed a lawyer, you should have mentioned the Fourteenth Amendment, which I think is the ammo that you were searching for in your rebuttal to fogtender.  

The Fourteenth Amendment:

 ...stated, in part, that:No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

The question that you and I are likely to disagree upon is the clause in the middle of that passage.  I believe that it applies to citizens of the United States, as such that it is in the same Amendment, and follows the stated delineation (...of citizens of the United States;...) in the first part.

Your thoughts?


----------



## RedRocker

paul webster said:


> Well, all I can say is thats why you have the occupation that you have and I am a Lawyer, its obvious that you are one dimensional, if that in your thinking, not to mention that you have denied them the right to due process, and in the process have violated the 1st,4th and probobly the 6th amendment rights, so unless you understand the legal process and have spent time in a court your miniscule thought process means less than nothing, thats all it is, that would never hold any water in any court, not even the court of public opinion.


 
Could you try a little harder to insult him? If this is an example of your
prowess as a litigator, I'm not impressed.


----------



## fogtender

RedRocker said:


> Could you try a little harder to insult him? If this is an example of your
> prowess as a litigator, I'm not impressed.


 
I wasn't insulted in the least, that is exactly what happens when someone can't support a view that isn't correct, legal or even close to it. They just pop a cork, seems to happen here a lot.... it is sad, too bad.

I use to enjoy being crossed examined by the defense lawyers on a trial trying to make me look stupid to get their client off. It use to drive them nuts when you kept asking the the Judge to have them rephrase a ("trick") question because you couldn't "understand what they were asking" (while looking at the judge with a confused look on my face).

After the Judge directs them to rephrase the question a number of times, to a point it doesn't have any merit to his side of the trial, they would stomp off to their table.

Nope, dealt with that type for years, and much worse. 

But thanks for your opinion Redrocker!


----------



## Junkman

paul webster said:


> ............... not to mention that you have denied them the right to due process, and in the process have violated the 1st,4th and probobly the 6th amendment rights, so unless you understand the legal process and have spent time in a court your miniscule thought process means less than nothing, thats all it is,  that would never hold any water in any court, not even the court of public opinion.



Can we throw in the Bill of Rights also......... it makes for a more rounded defense.  Where is Clarence Darrow when you need him............. but then I haven't seen William Jennings Bryan around here either.  I have noticed that there are an over abundance of John T. Scopes types lurking around these parts....


----------



## Dusty

Junkman said:


> I have noticed that there are an over abundance of John T. Scopes types lurking around these parts....



Anyone in particular?


----------



## Junkman

Dusty said:


> Anyone in particular?



A hacking moderator .....


----------



## ghautz

REDDOGTWO said:


> He sounds like a defense lawyer, ...



Out of curiosity, I checked his profile.  Had to google "define advogado" and translate the result.  As I guessed, that is spanish for lawyer.  It is obvious he made his living defending spanish-speaking people.


----------



## REDDOGTWO

ghautz said:


> Out of curiosity, I checked his profile. Had to google "define advogado" and translate the result. As I guessed, that is spanish for lawyer. It is obvious he made his living defending spanish-speaking people.


 
Gee whiz, I always thought a advogado was a fruit!


----------



## Bulldog1401

RedRocker said:


> Could you try a little harder to insult him? If this is an example of your
> prowess as a litigator, I'm not impressed.



Well said. 

And he has proven "beyond a reasonable doubt, ladies and gentlemen" that a law degree doesn't always equal intelligence!!


----------



## paul webster

Actually this has become quite stupid, Advogado, is purtugese for Lawyer not spaish, and I am a retired criminal Lawyer for all your information, and NO, a illegal can not file a suit against you, its like force majur" so for you non believers here goes, they can file a Class action law suit only to have it dismissed faster than some of you can pull your trigger finger and execute them, I just believe in peoples rights to due process of law.... sorry guys the good OLD boys shoot and ask questuions later does not work with me, but if thats how you guys think its your RIGHT, I am just stating the facts no matter if either of us like them, maybe we all need to write our congressman/woman..... good day....


----------



## REDDOGTWO

Very interesting debate, it does not mean that we like it or that we like the way that our elected officials enforce our laws.

That is one of the problems in our country 300,000,000 people and each has an opinion on how things are run and they are all different.


----------



## fogtender

REDDOGTWO said:


> Very interesting debate, it does not mean that we like it or that we like the way that our elected officials enforce our laws.
> 
> That is one of the problems in our country 300,000,000 people and each has an opinion on how things are run and they are all different.


 
No, there is one Constitution, and some peole read it differently or not at all, mostly the guys we elected to govern....


----------



## Deadly Sushi

Is this STILL going on? He is probably using your retorts to defend the damn illegals.  

What else can one say? Illegal is.... illegal. Hey If they can put a 20 year old kid in jail for having sex with a 16 year old.... one can only hope they can do something about illegals that are leaches on our tax money.


----------



## waybomb

Sush, was that YOU?


----------



## paul webster

No I am not defending anyone, I am retired now, got tired of the BS, now I am just a fly fisherman.......but everyone has rights,its in our constitution, just a thought.....


----------



## Bobcat

The U.S. Constitution gives every U.S. citizen rights, not foreigners. If you feel otherwise, you would have to accept that every resident of China, every tourist from another country, any foreign diplomat can come here and vote for president of the U.S. Maybe you're thinking of the Declaration of Independence which makes a more gerneral statement of human rights?


----------



## paul webster

You raise a good point, BUT if they were trafficed in illegally by the coyotes for money,then they have right under a T visa, which raises your point again, illegal but they have rights ??? I am not confused, but maybe tired, but you have a valid point, I on the other hand believe We are a country of equal and non transpaent ideals, but that is another subject...


----------



## RedRocker

Bobcat said:


> The U.S. Constitution gives every U.S. citizen rights, not foreigners. If you feel otherwise, you would have to accept that every resident of China, every tourist from another country, any foreign diplomat can come here and vote for president of the U.S. Maybe you're thinking of the Declaration of Independence which makes a more gerneral statement of human rights?



  +1


----------



## Bobcat

paul webster said:


> You raise a good point, BUT if they were trafficed in illegally by the coyotes for money,then they have right under a T visa, which raises your point again, illegal but they have rights ??? I am not confused, but maybe tired, but you have a valid point, I on the other hand believe We are a country of equal and non transpaent ideals, but that is another subject...



The mere act of entering the country illegally with the aid of a coyote does not merit a 'T non immigrant visa'. Human trafficking by force, fraud, or coercion must be involved (they didn't enter by choice). If you paid a coyote to take you across, then you are not eligible for the visa. The T visa was mainly created for victims of slavery and the sex trade.

Once a T visa is obtained, that still grants no rights under the Constitution. It merely allows a road to citizenship, and other than that, still not much different than a tourist visa and much less than a green card.


----------



## EastTexFrank

paul webster said:


> No I am not defending anyone, I am retired now, got tired of the BS, now I am just a fly fisherman.......but everyone has rights,its in our constitution, just a thought.....



After an 11 month hiatus you return to to breathe new life into what must now be the longest running thread in FF history.  The fly fishing must have been really good this year to have kept you from stirring the pot since January or perhaps this is just your cold weather pastime.  

As a fly fisherman you have no doubt "played" many a fish until the point of exhaustion so that you could land it but rather than dispatching it and adding it to the creel, you obviously practice catch and release and are casting for the same fish again using the same bait.  

It'll be interesting to see if the same fish do indeed bite again.  

Oh, by the way, I think you're


----------



## Bobcat

EastTexFrank said:


> After an 11 month hiatus you return to to breathe new life into what must now be the longest running thread in FF history.
> <snip>



Hey, hasn't your green card expired yet?


----------



## EastTexFrank

Bobcat said:


> Hey, hasn't your green card expired yet?



They took it back when they gave me my citizenship papers and the right to apply for a US passport.  

I'm one of the resentful minority who went through all the rigmarole to get a Resident Alien Card and then Citizenship and think that anyone who wants to live in this country, and who can blame them for that, should do the same thing.


----------



## paul webster

its to cold to fly fish here now SO I have to stir the pot alittle, but I did not resurrect this subject, someone else did and it came to my e-mail, But as long as we are on the subject here goes, I dont know what I would know about immigration, I only went to court for over 26years, no matter what you guys and I say, just wait until Obama gets in there, then you will see some serious reform for ALL the immigrants, and yes they do have rights here no matter what WE say, try to call I.C E, ( thats immigration and customs enforcement, you will get a voice mail saying your illegal immigrant report will be investigated within 90-120 days, its a joke  I do agree with alot of you guys BUT, if they go to court for anything less than a Felony charge, sad but true, they are getting out, period....and if they are here for 10 years, its a automatic visa and a GREEN card, remember, we as citizens made the rules ............


----------



## benspawpaw

mr webster wanted a post about all the good the mexicans are dooing here,so here goes
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
well i guess thats enough for now


----------



## paul webster

I am not even going to comment on that last reply, it has no merit or substance to the topic...........


----------



## benspawpaw

sure it does if you are not a mexican or a person that has been affected by all of them otherwise cry a tear for them. i wish we could ship them all back. we could leave room on the bus for anyone that wants to go. are you packed yet?


----------



## paul webster

I guess it makes sense to someone like you who propobly has a 3rd grade education, and cant hold a logical conversation, and if you care so much then write your congressman or woman,or call I.C.E, depends on what state you live in,and if you need help I would more than willing to do the draft pro bono, if you know what that means...... good day... but President elect Obama and his cabinet will have the last say, so we will just have to wait and see what happens.


----------



## benspawpaw

you dont live here in ga where i am from and see it every day. people losing jobs and homes because companies will hire the illegals to work because they dont use their benefits like americans do and they will work for less. they use welfare and cost us taxpayers more each day. i live in the carpet capital of the world and even tho it says made in america, its made by mexicans who dont have a right to be here. like i said if you feel so strongly for them move your ass to mexico and take a load with you. and by the way i finished tha 12th grade but i didnt go to college but that doesnt make you any better than me!


----------



## EastTexFrank

Paul Webster, you really get your jollies off doing this, don't ya??????  It must be a lot like our Sushi and all his "hot chick" sites.  Enjoy while you can.

"I did not resurrect this subject" ..... yes you did!!!!! 

post #218 - Waybomb - 1/28/08

post #219 - Paul Webster - 12/26/08

I forgot, you're a lawyer (retired), nuff said.


----------



## benspawpaw

i must say that i let him, (paul webster) get under my skin. while i most of the time would say a person like him is not worth the shit it would take to make him stink, so i will shut up about this.
love all around


----------



## paul webster

Benspawpaw, you need to ACT, I mean you need to report these companies that are hiring the illegals to the proper authorities, you need to take pictures if possible and report them to ICE,and to your local state governing labor agency, immigration and custome enforcement, homeland security will take action on these companies, you need to look up the web site for your state and report it, if they are hiring the illegals the companies will be severely reprimanded and fined, if you want help, pm me, good luck


----------



## benspawpaw

after being insulted about my level of education by you i would not trust you to feed my dog.sorry as we say in the south, you done pissed in your corn flakes.and by the way the law enforcement agencies know about the illegals, there are too many bleeding heart idiots there to do anything.


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## paul webster

just remember one thing ben, you started with the shit comments and other personal comments,i reciprocated, law enforcement has nothing to do with this subject either, not the police, state police , FBI, DEA, highway patrol, none of these agencies care at all, YOU need to do 1 of 2 things,#1 take the bull by the horn ALL THE WAY and file complaints with I.C.E and homeland security against these carpet and textile companies,and put your old John Henry on it, or #2 quit crying the blues about me defending some of these people, I am retired now, I hope the next thing you are not going to tell me is to free Leonard Peltier also.......... so take ACTIONS and do it....


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## paul webster

paul webster said:


> I guess it makes sense to someone like you , and cant hold a logical conversation, and if you care so much then write your congressman or woman,or call I.C.E, depends on what state you live in,and if you need help I would more than willing to do the draft pro bono, if you know what that means...... good day... but President elect Obama and his cabinet will have the last say, so we will just have to wait and see what happens.


 ok good night


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## benspawpaw

webster you are not worth my time anymore. i will not lower myself to your level anymore. to the rest of the ff family please forgive me for getting so upset but when someone like webster insults a person he can only take so much. if we had been face to face i doubt very much he would have kept on talking because these kind of people need to hide somewhere like the internet since they are so small


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## paul webster

I see you cant hold a debate over a issue that neither you or I will ever win, I dont need to hide from anyone I am right here if you wish to talk to me in person some time, the subject is always open.....


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## Big Dog

Please gentlemen, let's keep the debate on track.

Let's debate enthusiastically but with a little constraint ......


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## mtntopper

> *WHAT IF 20 MILLION ILLEGAL ALIENS VACATED AMERICA*


 
A lot of the things many of us take for granted would not get done. Products and services we expect would not be available. Some of the lazy whites, blacks and others on handouts would still be there and some who really want jobs could possibly get one if they could or would actually do what the deported illegals were doing as productive people. Some of the dead weight illegals would be gone and our welfare rolls might actually decrease. Lawyers like Paul would have to find a different area to practice their trade profession in. As I stated in the past many of these illegals are productive people and do jobs that no one else will do. A program to keep the ones trying to assimilate into our society with work visas and citizenship ability would be a must. The ones leaching off society should be gone but only under due process of laws that should have some teeth and not just words without meaning...........

That is the short and long of what I see happening. I do have actual experience working beside some of these illegal aliens types that many of you only see the bad side and are blind to the good. Let me assure you there is a good side to many of them and they provide needed services and goods that others will not do and do seek to belong if possible legally. My views are not far off from what Paul is trying to explain to us about *the actual* *laws that protect even aliens when they are in our country*.......Bill


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## The Tourist

I thought about this one seriously to comment on how such a event would truthfully have impact on my wife and I.

So here it is.

When we would go to Taco Bell for a burrito, we would have to unroll it, and properly fold the edges in so it wouldn't leak.

This would be necessary since the work was now done by a caucasian amateur.  Other than that...


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## benspawpaw

i hope the link works it lasts about 4 or 5 min but is to the point you may want to use the pause button lower left when new text comes up to have time to read it this is pretty good//http://usawakeup.org/HowToDestroyAmerica.htm


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## BigAl RIP

Ben , 
 I look at the bright side . You never know who a person really is when you debate him on the internet . *I was once the President of the United States and know more than every other member here . LOL.*That must be true as I said it here on FF .  I always take a man at his word ,,, but I always make damn sure* I "Google his name and check the facts" to be certain they  are playin on the level ,*  to see what comes up . Maybe you want to try that to .

    The internet is an amazing tool and you can use it to reinforce your case and position .


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## Bobcat

I Yahoo'd 'Big Al' and had several hits on 'Big Al' Gore. Hey man, thanks for the Internet.  Also, while you did win the popular vote, I'm afraid you were technically NOT the POTUS.  But you're still our Poohbah!


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## Snowcat Operations

It is indeed truly amazing what dirt you can dig up on some people.


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## Deadly Sushi

Snowcat Operations said:


> It is indeed truly amazing what dirt you can dig up on some people.



Bobcat had boneless pork loins for dinner


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## Bobcat

Deadly Sushi said:


> Bobcat had boneless pork loins for dinner



This is what they're talking about, ya mook...


http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=253112


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## Deadly Sushi

Bobcat said:


> This is what they're talking about, ya mook...
> 
> 
> http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=253112




OK.... No freakin idea who this guy in Colorado is. Should I??? By the way SnoOps and I both have gas.


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## BigAl RIP

Deadly Sushi said:


> OK.... No freakin idea who this guy in Colorado is. Should I??? .


 
 you should ... he is a member here . Look at the name again  .. Sushi ? You been drinking ??????????


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## Deadly Sushi

BigAl said:


> you should ... he is a member here . Look at the name again  .. Sushi ? You been drinking ??????????



I dont remember this guy, but I have now updated my information.


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## brazospete

They talk all this bullspit about how we're a nation of Laws and it's just a lie cause they don't obey the law! We don't have laws about bankruptsy? We must not have a single law about harboring aliens! We are fast becoming a nation with no respect for the law because it isn't Respectable!


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## brazospete

They already know about me and sometimes they let me know they're watching! Don't worry you're only paranoid if They are NOT after you!


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