# Stuck starter



## pixie

Has anyone else had a starter engage and refuse to disengage even when the key is not in the ignition ? Someone told me it was rare....
Edit: It cranked until the batteries died which wasn't long since it was cold out.

Diesel truck. Kind of a good thing it was cold out ... I guess.. might have been messier if it had started. Smoke got out of the solenoid so I'll replace the whole thing. It will be my second starter in 12,000 miles... the first one fell off the day after I bought the truck. 

I've had a plow truck burn before so I was jumping up and down a little.... Packed the road with the J5.


----------



## 300 H and H

Sounds like the alinement of the starter is not good. Is there any shims to put between it and the engine block to get the bendix teeth off the ring gear? Not knowing how yours mounts of course...If there is not enough clearance, they can hang up and the bendix will not retract. This may be what killed the last one BTW, if it didn't disengage while you had the engine running, but couldn't hear it still engaged for a time...

Any way to get more clearance??

Regards, Kirk


----------



## pixie

I guess I didn't explain well. It kept cranking untill the batteries died.
It was easy to remove.


----------



## muleman RIP

When I have seen that happen before it was a low battery as the culprit. That and dirty connections will do it.


----------



## NorthernRedneck

Had something similar happen to the wife2B's kia van yesterday.  We had a rough day mechanically.  I went out to start the durango only to discover the battery was totally dead.  No lights on.  So after a trip to the auto parts store for a new battery, I come out to get in the van.  She says there's something wrong.  The van is running.  She turns off the key, takes it out, puts the van in reverse, and we drive away with no keys in the ignition.  Weird?!?!?!?  Only way the van would shut off was to open the drivers door.


----------



## the old trucker

That's the price you pay for Modern techknowledgely.


----------



## pixie

Well.. maybe I don't understand how solenoids work... isn't there a spring that the smaller wire overcomes the pressure of by electromagnetics which causes the larger wire to be engaged ? How would low voltage change this ?

Is one of the boxy looking solenoids different from one on a starter which looks more cylindrical ?


----------



## muleman RIP

As it was explained to me after I tore the starter out of a bobcat skid steer thinking it was bad. The low voltage does not spin the starter or the engine fast enough to allow the bendix to retract. Normally the small wire from the switch energizes the coil in the solenoid which slams the bendix forward to engage the flywheel. When it travels the full stroke it also makes the big contact to send the high amperage from the big wire to the starter windings. Normally the engine firing releases the torgue off the bendix and allows the spring to retract it. I have experienced it twice and both times a low battery and dirty connection were the culprit.


----------



## BigAl RIP

I have had the starter hang up when starting a veihcle . It is usually the solennoid but I have heard of not positionig shims back in place and that being a problem too . I would guess solenoid as the problem .


----------



## pixie

Thanks everyone ... I understand better.

I'm going to have to either warm the whole engine up with exhaust or a small salamander and/or take the batteries out when I'm not using it. The batteries are new and have been starting it fine but not this time after a couple weeks of ten below to ten above weather.


----------



## Snowtrac Nome

shimms are for gm starters, and gm's are bad for sticking solenoids  and mounting bolts breaking, as the 6.2 nd 6.5 starters are barely stong enough to start those engines. the way the solenoid works is that there are 2 contacts and a copper disc at the top when you energize the coil a plunger moves closing the 2 big contacts with the disc ,this also throws the bendix into the fly wheel. the contacts can sometimes weld them selfs together, causing your starter to run till the battery dies. there is a spring that is supposed to return the starter but it will not do this if the contacts fuse. the most common reason to fuse the contacts to the disc are a weak battery or too much cranking other things can build resistance causing heat is corrosin or a chewed up disc where contact might be minimal again causing heat to build up  ford diesels have 2 solenoids 1 high amperage solenoid on the starter and a low amperage one for the switch wire on the right front fender.


----------



## pixie

Thanks, Don. Mine is a Ford but the auto parts guy says that year ('00 ) doesn't have the solenoid on the fender. I will be following the wire though, because this is the second incident like this. The first time there was no nut on the big wire and I just poked it with a stick.... Don't you love paying for repairs that come back like that....


----------



## Snowtrac Nome

it's real bad in this town that's why chit just sits till i get around to it i'm too tight to pay some one to do a job i have to re do my self to have it right. lucky for you you have the nipondenso starter it's quite a bit smaller than the mistubisi style.


----------



## pixie

Ya, Don. I fix most things myself but the transmission housing on this truck broke and it sat at a mechanic's yard for 7 months waiting to get welded. 
For whatever reason, they put a used solenoid on it and when it  didn't start well, new batteries... probably would have started better if they had used a nut to hold the big wire on the solenoid...... but they did give me the solenoid and batteries free. The price of removing the transmission and welding it covered it, I'm sure.

I need some lettering for the back of this truck "Money Pit"


----------



## luvs

called my Dad & waiting on a return-call. his living was fixing automotive ails.


----------



## Snowtrac Nome

gotta luve ford and their better ideas. why did the belhousing break? wasn't it ford tough.


----------



## pixie

It was the transmission housing where it's mounted to the cross member. 6 speed manual. The only other mounts for the engine/transmission are along side the engine, 2 mounts plus this rear one. I think the truck hit a curb plowing because when I bought it, the front springs were new. I had lots of vibration problems and had replaced the driveshaft and rebuilt the rearend. It seems better since it was welded. 

I really thought an F450 would be a little tougher than a one ton. At least the frame rails are heavier so it will take them longer to rust out ...


----------



## luvs

whelp, glad my Dad's phone was busy. yinz solved this 1, sans a pro.

& to mention ford @ the dinner table- that meant certain death where i was given life


----------



## Dan in Napa CA

Sounds like a stuck starter relay.

DiNCA


----------



## Short bus

her is what happened to me last week i was lugging up a pile of snow crossig the road in my Tucker and flooded out stalling the motor I cranked it for a long while I quit cranking but the starter kept running I turned the switch off and it stoped. I waited for the starter to cool a few and started up the motor and drove off I thought I could hear a whine and stoped the starter motor was running so I turned off the motor but the starter motor was running the key was off so now I was in trouble I got out and started to take the cable off with a pair of pliers that was handy not wanting to take the time to open the tool box I gave up on that Idea and strted smaking the selinoid and as luck had it it the tarter motor quit running. I got back in the cab to start it up turned the key and nothing. My starter has a ruber boot over the leaver to ingauge the gear to the flywheel and a switich when pressed all the way so I pushed it and it cranked so turned the key on and started it then turned it of and started it with the key. no trouble since. I figured the contacts in the switch got hot and the switch was stuck closed. it is a new starter and two good charged Batteries and all new wires. I have two spare starters and one spar seinoid and anoter good key switch sooo I think I will carry them with me for a while and a hunk of wire or two but WTF I feel like I was on the twilite zone.


----------



## pixie

Ya, Twilight zone is a good description. Sometime wacking them with a piece of wood might help. Hard to find a piece of wood handy-by in the winter...

I think mine was from poor connection at the starter lug. I replaced the starter and sanded the connector and put dielectric grease on everything. Old starter might still be good... I'll test it sometime. And next winter, I'll be carrying a stick in the cab .... that reminds me of the Flintstones


----------



## muleman RIP

Woman and a hunk of 2X4 would scare me,let alone the poor starter.


----------



## pixie

Apparently the truck is immune to threats. It was a participant in mashing a printer that pissed me off, so it really should know better than to mess with me


----------



## muleman RIP

Now that is funny!


----------



## Short bus

OK fellers(and gals) let me define smack - (taping on the solenoid with the pliers) if you I have never used this divine technique I think it worthy of your development.


----------



## Dan in Napa CA

Pixie, it ain't a stick you need in the cab, it's a Ford Wrench (aka "Hammer").  ;-)


----------



## Dan in Napa CA

I think I just got it.  Pixie.  Stick.  Pixie Stick.  LOL - a little tube of sugar and tart flavoring?  That won't fix a starter.  

Sometimes I kill mysel;oised rgoa


----------



## pixie

Haha, Dan. 

No, I'm thinking any old stick; hardwood and over 3 feet long.

It's a ways under there and I know from experience not to use anything metal around that starter......


----------



## muleman RIP

pixie said:


> Haha, Dan.
> 
> No, I'm thinking any old stick; hardwood and over 3 feet long.
> 
> It's a ways under there and I know from experience not to use anything metal around that starter......


What? You don't like the free sparkler show?


----------



## pixie

The 'show' part is fine...it's being part of the circuit . . . I mean circus that's not as much fun. 
Had a wrench welded on the the starter trying to install it and various other fun times. I'd just rather wack it from a distance


----------



## Short bus

Taking the battery lead off just takes all the fun out of it.


----------



## pixie

Yes 

Takes longer than wacking it, too


----------



## Short bus

Is that a pun?


----------



## pixie

... Or a double entendre ?

No, not meant that way. Takes longer to find the wrench and undo the terminal than to poke the starter with a stick. I wrapped the wrench in a glove after I got it unstuck...still quite a mark on the starter where it stuck on  
Sure, I could have thought to put the starter in before the batteries but figured I'd want to lie down for a while after dealing with the batteries...silly me. 

The first time the starter mysteriously started cranking with the key out of the ignition, I was lying under the truck and couldn't remember if it was in gear or not. Just don't trust the beast any more.


----------



## prospector

Hi Pixie.
That problem happened to me once with my NH tractor in the winter. The culprit was temperature fluctuations that was real mild accompanied with rain, then within a few hours flash freeze. Condensation had build up somewhere, causing the internal to get stucked. Couldn't disconnect the battery group fast enought but fortunately they simply died down without having any damages done. For solving it, I simply plug the engine block heather on for a few hours.


----------



## pixie

Welcome to the Forums, Prospector !

Ya, that could have caused it. It had been sitting a while.
There's no electricity where the truck is. I've ordered a solar battery charger so the next time, the batteries should either be strong enough to start it or last long enough so I have time to disconnect them.  Ha Ha !!


----------

