# "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...



## RobsanX

*"Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



> *By MIRIAM  JORDAN *
> 
> Arizona lawmakers on Tuesday passed  one of the toughest pieces of immigration-enforcement legislation in the  country, which would make it a violation of state law to be in the U.S.  without proper documentation.
> It would also grant police the power to stop and verify the  immigration status of anyone they suspect of being illegal.
> The bill could still face a veto from Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer. A  spokesman for Ms. Brewer said she has not publicly commented on the  bill. Ms. Brewer, a Republican, has argued for stringent immigration  laws.
> Under the measure, passed Tuesday by Arizona's lower house, after  being passed earlier by the state Senate, foreign nationals are required  to carry proof of legal residency.
> Immigrants' rights groups roundly criticized the bill. "The objective  is to make life miserable for immigrants so that they leave the state,"  said Chris Newman, general counsel for the Los Angeles-based National  Day Laborer Organizing Network. "The bill constitutes a complete  disregard for the rights of nonwhites in Arizona. It effectively  mandates racial profiling."


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...4.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsForth

Hmmm. No mention of the police going after the employers of illegal aliens. They are crossing the border for work, so why not deny them the opportunity.


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## Doc

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

It appears to be a step in the right direction, but I'll agree with you Rob that the employers of any illegal aliens should also face penalties.  Make the employer verify citizenship and then if they are found with any employees who are not citizens or here legally with proper paperwork then the business owner should be fined and possibly jailed.


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## Glink

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



RobsanX said:


> Hmmm. No mention of the police going after the employers of illegal aliens. They are crossing the border for work, so why not deny them the opportunity.



Agree completely on the employers.

Of course those employers make campaign contributions.

I have to edit after catching this.



> It would also grant police the power to stop and verify the immigration status of anyone they suspect of being illegal.



After rereading your post Rob, I guess I now think this new law sucks. 

Forcing employers to insure, maintain, and provide proof of legal status; that would make more sense.


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## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

I think the law is good because it allows the local police to enforce immigration laws.  This brings the enforcement control back to the state and not on the national level.  I suspect many of these immigrants will be released by the feds even after the local police catch them.

Unfortunately, we are at a state where the bureaucrats are undermining the will of the people.  I suspect a majority of the people (at least the legitimate citizens and immigrants) want to see immigration laws enforced against the employers and the illegals.  Unfortunately, there seems to be this crazy thing called the government that is incapable of doing what the population wants.


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## RobsanX

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

The part that worries me is that this law doesn't just apply to people under arrest. It applies to any Tom, Dick, and Harriet walking down the street. The police can detain anyone until they prove that they are in the country legally. What exactly constitutes proof of citizenship? I don't carry my passport, birth certificate, or SS card with me...


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## loboloco

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

Actually, Federal law requires anyone here on any form of visa to have it on their person at all times.  Just Az backing up the Feds.


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## Melensdad

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



RobsanX said:


> The part that worries me is that this law doesn't just apply to people under arrest. It applies to any Tom, Dick, and Harriet walking down the street. The police can detain anyone until they prove that they are in the country legally. What exactly constitutes proof of citizenship? I don't carry my passport, birth certificate, or SS card with me...



There are checkpoints all over the the southwest.  This is not new, its just that AZ is defying federal orders.  AZ simply wants to crack down because of the huge burden to the state tax payers that illegal aliens create.

FWIW, many of the illegals who cross are also employed by individuals as maids, gardeners, etc.  When my in-laws lived in the border town of El Paso, TX it seemed that EVERYONE had a Mexican maid, a Mexican gardner, a Mexican handyman, etc.  They worked for cash, cheap.  So cracking down on the EMPLOYERS would be pretty tough because not only would they have to go after the farms, orchards, ranches, etc.  They would also have to go knocking door-to-door to find private employers.

Mexicans are an easy target because they "look" different.  But there are obviously MILLIONS OF AMERICAN CITIZENS of legal Mexican decent living here that may also get caught in these sweeps.  My real estate partner is a Mexican from El Paso, his mom and most of his siblings still live in the southwest.  They are all legal and I feel for any legal person who is swept up in something like these citizen checks that most likely will target people of hispanic heritage.  On the other hand, its clear that many are here illegally and we need to crack down on them.


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## JEV

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



RobsanX said:


> The part that worries me is that this law doesn't just apply to people under arrest. It applies to any Tom, Dick, and Harriet walking down the street. The police can detain anyone until they prove that they are in the country legally. *What exactly constitutes proof of citizenship? *I don't carry my passport, birth certificate, or SS card with me...


Well, we can start with speaking English without a Spanish accent...


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## Melensdad

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



JEV said:


> Well, we can start with speaking English without a Spanish accent...


Unfair and wrong.

My dad was an immigrant here from Czechoslovakia.  Hard as he tried to lose his accent he could not shake it.  

My uncle, who was born here but raised among Slovaks who smoke Slovak at home and English in public had a worse accent than my dad and he was a citizen at birth.

There is nothing wrong with a Spanish accent, or any other nationality accent.  Heck PBinWA is here as a legal alien and he can't get rid of his Canadian accent


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## dzalphakilo

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

Guys, you're missing the forest through the trees here...

You can enact ANY law you want to send people "back", the problem is, we as a country don't have the manpower nor the resources to actually accomplish anything.

What I'd like to call a "feel good law", or perhaps someone is running for re election.



> My dad was an immigrant here from Czechoslovakia.


 
And I'm sincerely curious as to how your father felt about Americans of Japaneese decent?

I think sometimes the hate is hard to let go of.


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## Doc

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

I agree with you that it is a feel good law for the most part DZ.  Since it is for AZ only the end result will be the neighboring states will see and influx of illegals.  It will move the problem out of one state and into others.  

Like was mentioned before, I wonder what will constitute proof?  If a drivers license will suffice the law won't have much affect as (I've read) many illegals have a drivers license.


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## loboloco

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



Melensdad said:


> Unfair and wrong.
> 
> My dad was an immigrant here from Czechoslovakia.  Hard as he tried to lose his accent he could not shake it.
> 
> My uncle, who was born here but raised among Slovaks who *smoke* Slovak at home and English in public had a worse accent than my dad and he was a citizen at birth.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with a Spanish accent, or any other nationality accent.  Heck PBinWA is here as a legal alien and he can't get rid of his Canadian accent


How do you smoke a Slovak?


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## dzalphakilo

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



loboloco said:


> How do you smoke a Slovak?


 
With anything larger than a 9mm?


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## Chetdb

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

Didn't the make a movie about Cheech getting caught up in a immigration sweep?


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## fustyruk

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

Interesting. Since AZ is now in the business of profiling Americans of Hispanic or Latino heritage and demanding proof of citizenship based solely on ethnicity. Perhaps AZ could demand brown skinned Americans be tattooed at birth to make proof of citizenship easy to confirm or perhaps AZ could require brown skinned Americans wear an identifying patch... perhaps a star on  their clothing. 

AZ has lost its damned mind and this law is as unAmerican as it gets. This is profiling pure and simple and demanding anyone fitting the profile, including natural born Americans, based on ethnicity to prove their citizenship can't be constitutional.  Why is it that Americans that claim to uphold the principles of real freedom in this coutry are so determined to eliminate those principles?


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## EastTexFrank

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

I agree with Bob as far as the accent thing goes.  I was born in Scotland grew up in the UK and have been in the US for 25 years and I'm told I still have an accent.  Just goes to show, I thought I sounded like John Wayne.

As far as the Resident Alien Card is concerned, loboloco is right.  You have to carry it with you at all times.

The "fine employers of illegal alien" thing sounds like a good idea but there are some very significant difficulties.  They tried to introduce a similar law in Texas several years back but it failed to pass because there is no way for an employer to check whether a prospective employee is in fact legal.  There is no State or Federal database that they can access to verify immigration status.  Illegals can buy a forged driving license or a Social Security card for less than $100.  Now, in a lot of cases, it's fairly obvious if they're illegal or not but until you have some sort of verification process or procedure in place, it's just not practical.  It is a nice idea though.


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## loboloco

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

Actually, immigration status can be checked thru ICE.  My wife was working at a plant where they take this serious.  2 women hired the same day were terminated because of immigration status.  One got it straight and went back to work,  The other took off in front of an ICE team.
It should be made mandatory that any employer check status.  With whopping big fines for none compliance. Like 250,000.00 per violation.
When I had my business I always checked for legal status.  SSAN can be ran also, but it takes time to get the info back, or used to.


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## EastTexFrank

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



loboloco said:


> Actually, immigration status can be checked thru ICE.  My wife was working at a plant where they take this serious.  2 women hired the same day were terminated because of immigration status.  One got it straight and went back to work,  The other took off in front of an ICE team.
> It should be made mandatory that any employer check status.  With whopping big fines for none compliance. Like 250,000.00 per violation.
> When I had my business I always checked for legal status.  SSAN can be ran also, but it takes time to get the info back, or used to.



Yes, but what information do you use to check?  I don't know.  I was going on the information given to me by a friend who operates a business here in East Texas and petitioned the State Government not to pass the law until there was a reliable procedure in place that would allow him to verify their status.  He also said that some of the forged documents he sees are pretty bad but some are very, very good.


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## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



loboloco said:


> Actually, Federal law requires anyone here on any form of visa to have it on their person at all times.  Just Az backing up the Feds.



As a permanent resident I am supposed to have my "green card" on me at all times.  Never been asked for it but I carry it.


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## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

I bet if the Feds made a big deal of arresting a bunch of employers all over the US, and repeated it occassionally the flow would ebb and soon the illegeal Mexicans would be headed south in a tidal wave.  They are only here because the Republians want the free labor and the democrats hope for a vote someday.  Simple, not really any matters of opinions here, just the facts.


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## nixon

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



mak2 said:


> They are only here because the Republians want the free labor and the democrats hope for a vote someday.  Simple, not really any matters of opinions here, just the facts.



Got anything to back up Your "facts " ?


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## Cowboy

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



mak2 said:


> I bet if the Feds made a big deal of arresting a bunch of employers all over the US, and repeated it occassionally the flow would ebb and soon the illegeal Mexicans would be headed south in a tidal wave. They are only here because the Republians want the free labor and the democrats hope for a vote someday. Simple, not really any matters of opinions here, just the facts.


 

Highlly unlikelly Mak . How would THEY , the Rich & in control get their houses cleaned , Landscapeing done , Meals cooked, dinner partys, & Nannys to take care of their spoilt Kids , Etc , Etc


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## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



nixon said:


> Got anything to back up Your "facts " ?



Who was the last employer arrested for hiring illegeals?


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## SShepherd

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



mak2 said:


> I bet if the Feds made a big deal of arresting a bunch of employers all over the US, and repeated it occassionally the flow would ebb and soon the illegeal Mexicans would be headed south in a tidal wave.* They are only here because the Republians want the free labor* and the democrats hope for a vote someday. Simple, not really any matters of opinions here, just the facts.


 

huhuhuhu..y..HUHU EVIL REPUBLICOOTS

http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2010/03/28/obamas-appointee-supports-u-s-business-hiring-illegal-aliens/

This weekend President Obama implemented a recess appointment for Craig Becker to head the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB).
On January 8th, 2001, Becker told a radio audience that he was a supporter of American businesses hiring undocumented, illegal aliens.


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## ghautz

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

Arizona passed a law to crack down on the hiring of illegal aliens about three years ago.  There has not been a lot in the news lately about it.  I recollect hearing about a couple of employers being pursued, but I don't recall the details.  Here is a link to a forum discussing it:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/ille...a-passes-strict-illegal-alien-employment.html

Like someone on the forum mentioned, it requires enforcement.  The only cop in the state working to enforce the immigration laws (Sheriff Joe Arpaio) is constantly catching heat for his efforts.


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## nixon

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



mak2 said:


> Who was the last employer arrested for hiring illegeals?



So , You base Your "facts"  on a person that You fail to name ? 
Come on You can do better ,can't You ?  Give Us a link to substantiate Your claims .


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## Cowboy

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

I dont know how good the source is But This is by far the only one I,ve ever heard of . Allthough I know nobody was talking to me 

http://us.altermedia.info/news-of-i...y-bureaucrat-caught-hiring-illegals_4231.html


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## nixon

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



Cowboy said:


> I dont know how good the source is But This is by far the only one I,ve ever heard of . Allthough I know nobody was talking to me
> 
> http://us.altermedia.info/news-of-i...y-bureaucrat-caught-hiring-illegals_4231.html



Thanks for the link . It kind of lost Me a Bush Neocons though


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## RobsanX

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



EastTexFrank said:


> Yes, but what information do you use to check?  I don't know.  I was going on the information given to me by a friend who operates a business here in East Texas and petitioned the State Government not to pass the law until there was a reliable procedure in place that would allow him to verify their status.  He also said that some of the forged documents he sees are pretty bad but some are very, very good.



You can look up the federal I-9 form. There are a number of documents, or combination of documents used to show that a person can legally work here.


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## SShepherd

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/23768802/Nancy-Pelosi-Illegal-Alien-Employer/

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2006/11/pelosis_illegal_alien_employee.html


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## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



nixon said:


> So , You base Your "facts"  on a person that You fail to name ?
> Come on You can do better ,can't You ?  Give Us a link to substantiate Your claims .



OK, why do you think?


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## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

Hell, you can arrest Pelosi too.  If they are illegal they are illegal, no matter who employs them.


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## SShepherd

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



mak2 said:


> Hell, you can arrest Pelosi too. If they are illegal they are illegal, no matter who employs them.


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## nixon

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



mak2 said:


> OK, why do you think?


???? Non sequitur  !


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## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



nixon said:


> ???? Non sequitur  !



Step away from the threasus.


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## nixon

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



mak2 said:


> Step away from the threasus.



Can I use a thesaurus in it's stead ? 
 Keep typing , You look brighter with every post .


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## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



nixon said:


> Can I use a thesaurus in it's stead ?
> Keep typing , You look brighter with every post .



never said I could spell.


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## loboloco

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



EastTexFrank said:


> Yes, but what information do you use to check?  I don't know.  I was going on the information given to me by a friend who operates a business here in East Texas and petitioned the State Government not to pass the law until there was a reliable procedure in place that would allow him to verify their status.  He also said that some of the forged documents he sees are pretty bad but some are very, very good.


That number on the green card.  There is a special program for employers that is run thru ICE.  Verifies number, name and address.  SSAN can be checked thru the Social Security people.  Please note, if you don't check the SSAN's you can pay into non existent accounts and the IRS will never say a word.   They won"t give you the money back either.


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## daedong

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

ETF, hell mate you would even sound Scottish in OZ


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## rc2james

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

I think it is a great law! I have been keeping an eye out for those sneaky Canadians and I carry around a picture of Red Green so I know what they look like.


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## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

I loved Red/Green show.  We dont get it here anymore.  200 channels and no R/G show, it just aint right.


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## SShepherd

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

eww..does evil canadians !

day come down here and bring dat skunky beer !


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## EastTexFrank

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



loboloco said:


> That number on the green card.  There is a special program for employers that is run thru ICE.  Verifies number, name and address.  SSAN can be checked thru the Social Security people.  Please note, if you don't check the SSAN's you can pay into non existent accounts and the IRS will never say a word.   They won"t give you the money back either.



If you have a green card.  What happens if they say that they are a natural born American of Hispanic descent and they don't need no stinkin' green card?  Here is my Soc. Sec. card and driver's license and the names match.  They moved from the address on their license to their present address looking for work and haven't had time to change it.  There are too many holes to be exploited and still no surefire way to check.  Besides, you want to hire someone to start work next week not in a couple of months.  

There is still no good, practical way that I can see to run these checks in an efficient, timely manner except by hiring no Hispanics at all and that's only going to lead to all kinds of trouble.


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## loboloco

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

Update:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_immigration_enforcement


*Arizona law raises fears of racial  profiling*

                                    By JONATHAN J. COOPER, Associated Press Writers        Jonathan J. Cooper, Associated Press Writers          –     21 mins ago
                                 PHOENIX – Arodi Berrelleza isn't one of the targets  of Arizona's new anti-illegal immigration law  — he's a U.S. citizen.
                 But the 18-year-old high school student from Phoenix  said he's afraid he'll be arrested anyway if police see him driving  around with friends and relatives, some of them illegal immigrants.
                 "If a cop sees them and they look Mexican, he's going  to stop me," Berrelleza said. "What if people are U.S. citizens?  They're going to be asking them if they have papers because of the color  of their skin."
                 Berrelleza's concerns were echoed at rallies in the  state Saturday, a day after Gov. Jan Brewer signed a bill that requires  police to question people about their immigration status — including  asking for identification — if they suspect someone is in the country  illegally.
                 The new law, which will take effect in late July or  early August, was cheered by many, including Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio, whose  tough crackdowns have made him a hero in the anti-illegal immigration  community.
                 He said it gives him new authority to detain  undocumented migrants who aren't accused of committing any other crimes.
                 "Now if we show they're illegal, we can actually  arrest them and put them in our jails," Arpaio said.
                 Current law in Arizona and most states doesn't  require police to ask about the immigration status of those they come  across, and many departments prohibit officers from inquiring out of  fear immigrants won't report crime or cooperate in other investigations.
                 The new measure also toughens restrictions on hiring  illegal immigrants for day  labor and knowingly transporting them.
                 Arizona  has an estimated 460,000 illegal immigrants and is the state with the  most illegal border crossings, with the harsh, remote desert serving as  the gateway for thousands of Mexicans and Central Americans.
                 Arpaio said he hoped Arizona's example coerces the  federal government into acting to seal the border.
                 President  Barack Obama has called the new law "misguided" and has  instructed the Justice  Department to examine it to see if it's legal. He added that the  failure to enact immigration  reform in Washington left the door open to the "irresponsibility  by others."
                 Arpaio said the law's passage is going to spur  politicians on Washington "get something done."
                 "Because I think they'll be afraid that other states  will follow this new law that's now been passed," he said.
                 Mexican President Felipe Calderon's office said in a  statement Saturday that "the Mexican government condemns the approval of  the law" and "the criminalization of migration." It said the law will  serve as an obstacle as Mexico and Arizona try to solve the shared  problems along the border.
                 Mona Patton, a 58-year-old real estate agent from  Prescott, said she's proud of Brewer and the Legislature for trying to protect people  from violent drug cartels.  "When Arizonans aren't safe then something has to be done. We've got to  let law enforcement handle things," Patton said.
                 A handful of protesters lingered at the state Capitol  Saturday morning, with a bigger rally expected to draw hundreds on  Sunday afternoon.
                 Opponents of the law also gathered in Tucson outside the  campaign headquarters of U.S.  Rep. Raul Grijalva, a Democrat who opposes the measure and said  his staff has been flooded with phone calls, some from people  threatening violence and shouting racial slurs. 
 Brewer has ordered state officials to develop a training course for  officers to learn what constitutes reasonable suspicion someone is in the U.S.  illegally. Civil rights  advocates vowed to challenge the law in court, saying it would  lead to racial profiling despite  the governor's assurances. 
 Supporters dismissed concerns about racial profiling, saying the law  prohibits the use of race or nationality as the sole basis for an  immigration check. 
 The bill's sponsor, Republican Sen. Russell Pearce, said opponents are using  racial profiling as a cover for their true concern — deportation. 
 "This is not about profiling. They're worried about the laws being  enforced," Pearce said. 
 Largely because of Arpaio's policies, Arizona was known for tough  illegal immigration crackdowns even before Brewer signed the bill into  law. 
 But Arpaio's jurisdiction is limited, and the new law will have its  biggest impact in the rest of the state, where many police bosses have  long resisted suggestions that their officers conduct day-to-day  immigration enforcement. They say it would distract their officers from  investigating other crimes and sow distrust among immigrants. 
 Immigrant advocates say the bill could worsen an already tenuous  relationship between law enforcement and Hispanics in Arizona. 
 State Sen. Rebecca Rios, a Phoenix Democrat and fourth-generation  Arizonan, said she's concerned about her 14-year-old son being harassed  by police because of his brown skin, black hair and dark-brown eyes. 
 "I don't want my son or anyone else's son targeted simply because of  their physical characteristics," Rios said. "There's no reason I should  have to carry around any proof of citizenship, nor my son." 
 ___ 
 Associated Press writers Paul Davenport in Phoenix and Mark Stevenson in  Mexico City contributed to this report.


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## JEV

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

If I run a red light in front of a police officer I expect to be ticketed and fined. The law clearly states that you must stop at the red light. 

If I rob a bank with a gun, I expect to be charged with robbery, tried, and if convicted, spend time in jail. The law clearly states that you can't just run around and rob banks at gunpoint (or otherwise).

If I smack the living shit out of you because you just don't get the fact that the law says that there is a protocol for entering the United States if you are not a US citizen, and that there is a process for applying for permission to stay if you choose to stay here for more than a short visit, then I think it's worth the chance of being convicted of smacking the shit out of a dope who just doesn't get it.

We have laws for a reason. No, they all don't make sense, and some are downright discriminatory. But there is a process for changing them. In the meantime, round up the illegals, build a big ass wall like we should, and send the illegals back where they came from. We have enough democrats here that don't get it already, without a bunch more that can't speak English.


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## dzalphakilo

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



> Mexican President Felipe Calderon's office said in a statement Saturday that "the Mexican government condemns the approval of the law" and "the criminalization of migration." It said the law will serve as an obstacle as Mexico and Arizona try to solve the shared problems along the border.


 
I have to laugh. If the Mexican president is upset by this new law, we should just ask him to let us use the same legal standards Mexico uses to deport their illegal aliens coming in from the south of THEIR border.

Two things...

1. Our legal system will most likely tie this and any other "draconian law" up in the courts for years

2. We don't currently have the man power, and with the war on everything else this country is figting, good luck charlie.



> build a big ass wall like we should


 
I would just love to see your submittal for such a wall



> "If a cop sees them and they look Mexican, he's going to stop me," Berrelleza said. "What if people are U.S. citizens? They're going to be asking them if they have papers because of the color of their skin."


 
Just ensure that you have your papers and everything will be fine. Given time, I have no doubt that the wetbacks will have the documentation figured out.



> "Now if we show they're illegal, we can actually arrest them and put them in our jails," Arpaio said.


 
This poor sheriff has't really thought things out in advance yet.

Given time, Arizona will probably look to the Feds for money and that's where they will get em.


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## rc2james

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

During my job retraining after our factory closed, I did a report for one of the manufacturing classes about the effect of undocumented (illegal if you will) people on the economies of states that boarder Mexico. The impact of the flood of these people is staggering and not only from the illegal drug traffic and murders but to the medical facilities as well. I can’t quote an exact figure but Texas alone lost money in the billions of dollars taking care of these people. I’m sure a quick Google search can give a much more accurate total but remember I’m not taking about Americans without insurance, but just people that are here illegally. The Arizona law is in response to the lack of action from our federal government over the last 20 years or more. Sometimes desperate times require desperate measures.


----------



## RobsanX

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



dzalphakilo said:


> Given time, I have no doubt that the wetbacks will have the documentation figured out.



Are racist remarks really necessary?


----------



## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

Small vocabulary?  or something.


----------



## dzalphakilo

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



RobsanX said:


> Are racist remarks really necessary?


 
1. Since I don't feel that my white hairy butt is really "superior" to people from Mexico (or any other "race" for that matter), the comment wouldn't be considered racist, but perhaps biggoted.

2. I see you're from the land of Cheese. Ever spend any time near or around the Rio Grande? Know where the term "wetback" comes from? The term isn't used to describe a certain race of people, but people coming into the our country illegally. 

Now, spend some time driving around in the south in town, and sooner or later your bound to pick up some racists remarks 



> Small vocabulary? or something.


 
Big words never impressed me


----------



## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

I remember a guy in the Marine Corps (Mexican) knocking someone goofey cause he called him a wetback.  Are you really trying to say wetback is not derogatory.  Perhaps I should call LCpl Montenez(Ithink) to tell him to apoligize.


----------



## JEV

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

Here we go. The left is getting violent because things are not going their way. *Fight! Fight!*Just like they were in the 60's. Hey. look! They're turning over a VW on its roof!  The cheese head started it!!!!


----------



## dzalphakilo

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



mak2 said:


> I remember a guy in the Marine Corps (Mexican) knocking someone goofey cause he called him a wetback. Are you really trying to say wetback is not derogatory. Perhaps I should call LCpl Montenez(Ithink) to tell him to apoligize.


 
I didn't say the term wasn't derogatory. 

Call Montenez if you'd like, but I don't think you'll accomplish anything. Added the fact that Montenez was/is serving in our armed forces, chances are his paperwork was in order when he enlisted


----------



## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

so you are saying it was a derogatory term but....what?  Much funnier after you added to it.


----------



## dzalphakilo

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



mak2 said:


> so you are saying it was a derogatory term but....what? Much funnier after you added to it.


 
I'm not dumb enough to call some strange Mexicans who I don't know a "wetback".

"Wetback" was a term used for people from Mexico "Sneaking" into the U.S via a river, and when they got to the US side, their back's we're dripping from the river.

Any Mexican who comes into this Country illegally, to some extent is a "wetback".   I'm sorry, will it make you feel any better if I call them an "illegal alien"? 

Kind of like when I was talking with Warren, a buddy of mine a couple of months ago (or perhaps longer). For some reason, Al Sharpton came up in our conversation, and Warren called Mr. Sharpton a "dumb ass nigger".

Ironically enough, Warren is a black man. 

As Warren told me, it may not be politically correct for me to call Mr. Sharpton a "nigger", but he sure in hell could.


----------



## RobsanX

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



dzalphakilo said:


> 1. Since I don't feel that my white hairy butt is really "superior" to people from Mexico (or any other "race" for that matter), the comment wouldn't be considered racist, but perhaps biggoted.
> 
> 2. I see you're from the land of Cheese. Ever spend any time near or around the Rio Grande? Know where the term "wetback" comes from? The term isn't used to describe a certain race of people, but people coming into the our country illegally.
> 
> Now, spend some time driving around in the south in town, and sooner or later your bound to pick up some racists remarks
> 
> 
> 
> Big words never impressed me



Actually I'm from Oklahoma, and yes I lived around, worked with, and are friends with many Americans of Hispanic heritage. You stated that they would have their documentation in order, so you were talking about the entire ethnic group whether they be here legally or otherwise.

If you want to be a racist, that's your right, but don't backtrack when someone calls you out on it.


----------



## JEV

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



RobsanX said:


> Actually I'm from Oklahoma, and yes I lived around, worked with, and are friends with many Americans of Hispanic heritage. You stated that they would have their documentation in order, so you were talking about the entire ethnic group whether they be here legally or otherwise.
> 
> If you want to be a racist, that's your right, but don't backtrack when someone calls you out on it.


You're the racist for picking on white guys who are just calling a spade a spade. If a bunch of 20-something year-old black youths were sitting around, slammin down a few Colt 45's and talking about the "pasty-faced honkey white trash," that  they have to work for, your mouth would be silent. But you have no problem picking on the white guys for calling an illegal a wetback. You crack me up.


----------



## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



JEV said:


> You're the racist for picking on white guys who are just calling a spade a spade. If a bunch of 20-something year-old black youths were sitting around, slammin down a few Colt 45's and talking about the "pasty-faced honkey white trash," that  they have to work for, your mouth would be silent. But you have no problem picking on the white guys for calling an illegal a wetback. You crack me up.



Jev, do you remember the 60's?  You would have been right at home, in the south.  Oh and by the way, not all black people drink Colt 45's.  I have drank some very nice IPA's with a black guy just this week.  Your comments are racial slurs, no matter what else you say.


----------



## dzalphakilo

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



RobsanX said:


> You stated that they would have their documentation in order


 
Where did I state that "they would have their documentation in order?

I beleive what I said was



> Just ensure that you have your papers and everything will be fine. Given time, I have no doubt that the wetbacks will have the documentation figured out.


 
I'm not back tracking on a darn thing. By having the "docmentation figured out", I mean that when new rules are in place, people who break the rules usually figure out new ways to circumvent those new rules. If you're circumventing the new rules, you're doing so most likely because you're here illegally, thus I used the term "wetback", because those people ARE here illegally.



> you want to be a racist, that's your right, but don't backtrack when someone calls you out on it.


 
Dude, if your comment were coming from some of the people I know in this world (who happend not be "white" or not "christian"), it would probably hurt my feelings that someone would think that of me. Coming from a guy from what looks to be in your avatar on an internet forum, I'm kind of laughing my ass off.



> Oh and by the way, not all black people drink Colt 45's. I have drank some very nice IPA's with a black guy just this week.


 
Likewise, not all young black males walk the streets with their pants hanging down past their kneecaps with a baseball cap on sideways, walking a pitbull.


----------



## JEV

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



mak2 said:


> Jev, do you remember the 60's?  You would have been right at home, in the south.  Oh and by the way, not all black people drink Colt 45's.  I have drank some very nice IPA's with a black guy just this week.  Your comments are racial slurs, no matter what else you say.


The wetbacks need to go home. End of conversation. If you don't want them deported, then take them into your home and be responsible for them and their families.


----------



## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



JEV said:


> The wetbacks need to go home. End of conversation. If you don't want them deported, then take them into your home and be responsible for them and their families.



You are a racist.  Who else do you hate, maybe that is why you call Obama a Kenyan?


----------



## jpr62902

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

Again, simmer down, everyone.


----------



## RobsanX

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



jpr62902 said:


> Again, simmer down, everyone.



No problem. I'm going grocery shopping. That's my happy place!


----------



## dzalphakilo

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



mak2 said:


> You are a racist. Who else do you hate, maybe that is why you call Obama a Kenyan?


 
Am I a racist because I feel that if you are in this country illegally you should be deported back to the country you came from? 

Am I also a racists because I think the current president by definition isn't "black", but claims to be because it does nothing but enhance his political career?



> The wetbacks need to go home. End of conversation.


 
By definition, the "wetbacks" do need to go home IMO because they are here illegally.


----------



## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



dzalphakilo said:


> Am I a racist because I feel that if you are in this country illegally you should be deported back to the country you came from?
> 
> Am I also a racists because I think the current president by definition isn't "black", but claims to be because it does nothing but enhance his political career?
> 
> 
> 
> By definition, the "wetbacks" do need to go home IMO because they are here illegally.



NO, quit trying to move the targets and change what you are saying.  IF they are illegal they should be arrested, those who employ them should be arrested and deported or imprisoned per the law.  This thread is about leagl law biding citizens being forced to carry papers and submit them to authorities at will.  No you are backtracking. 

I dunno what you mean about Obama not being black, you think he is....what?


----------



## JEV

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



mak2 said:


> You are a racist.  Who else do you hate, maybe that is why you call Obama a Kenyan?


I guess I am what I am. At least I'm not hiding behind some phony altruism and political correctness. These are real problems that require real action, not codling by a bunch of wimps worried about their polling numbers. Obama is a Socialist and a Chicago street thug who is trying to take this country down. He will be stopped starting this November, and it will be finished in 2012. He makes Jimmy Carter look like he really had a brain. And yes, he is a Kenyan. His wife said so.


----------



## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



JEV said:


> I guess I am what I am. At least I'm not hiding behind some phony altruism and political correctness. These are real problems that require real action, not codling by a bunch of wimps worried about their polling numbers. Obama is a Socialist and a Chicago street thug who is trying to take this country down. He will be stopped starting this November, and it will be finished in 2012. He makes Jimmy Carter look like he really had a brain. And yes, he is a Kenyan. His wife said so.



I still like you man.


----------



## waybomb

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



mak2 said:


> NO, quit trying to move the targets and change what you are saying.  IF they are illegal they should be arrested, those who employ them should be arrested and deported or imprisoned per the law.  This thread is about leagl law biding citizens being forced to carry papers and submit them to authorities at will.  No you are backtracking.



I have to produce "papers" - Drivers License, yacht club card, etc. So What? Shouldn't be a problem if you have one. I guess if you don't, then you probably want "Hope" and "Change".


----------



## dzalphakilo

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



mak2 said:


> NO, quit trying to move the targets and change what you are saying


 
Hey, when some Honkey is calling me a racist, please allow me to respond



> This thread is about leagl law biding citizens being forced to carry papers and submit them to authorities at will.


 
The reason why so many legal law abiding citizens will be forced to carry papers is because so many people of their same skin color are breaking the rules (don't see many "white people" sneaking north across the border do you?).  Carry you're papers or whatever else you need to carry, and you won't have a problem, end of discussion.

Shit, why don't we all just move to Canada and do what the illegals are doing here? 



> I dunno what you mean about Obama not being black, you think he is....what?


 
His mother was white, his father was black.  Honestly, he comes across more of a very lucky bastard child than anything else, however, technically, he would be considered bi-racial.  However, he gives blacks hope, and he uses that to his advantage (nothing wrong with that I guess being in politics), thus, he is "black".


----------



## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



waybomb said:


> I have to produce "papers" - Drivers License, yacht club card, etc. So What? Shouldn't be a problem if you have one. I guess if you don't, then you probably want "Hope" and "Change".



You are not really this simple.  A drivers license is reqired to drive a car on public roads.  I am really disappointed Americans have completely given upon their constitutional rights.  I guess we deserve what we get.


----------



## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



dzalphakilo said:


> Hey, when some Honkey is calling me a racist, please allow me to respond
> 
> 
> 
> The reason why so many legal law abiding citizens will be forced to carry papers is because so many people of their same skin color are breaking the rules (don't see many "white people" sneaking north across the border do you?).  Carry you're papers or whatever else you need to carry, and you won't have a problem, end of discussion.
> 
> Shit, why don't we all just move to Canada and do what the illegals are doing here?
> 
> 
> 
> His mother was white, his father was black.  Honestly, he comes across more of a very lucky bastard child than anything else, however, technically, he would be considered bi-racial.  However, he gives blacks hope, and he uses that to his advantage (nothing wrong with that I guess being in politics), thus, he is "black".



This is really scary, but I will try one more time to explain it to you.

Yes, if someone calls you a honkie, he is a racist too.  Two wrong make a right?

It scare the hell out of me how eaisly you say: 
"The reason why so many legal law abiding citizens will be forced to carry papers is because so many people of their same skin color are breaking the rules (don't see many "white people" sneaking north across the border do you?)."  I dont know the statistics but if I remember correclty young black men commit most crimes in this country, lets just search the house of all young black men cause so many people of the same skin color are breaking the law.  

I dont think discussing the black vs biracial thing is even worthy of comment.


----------



## dzalphakilo

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



mak2 said:


> You are not really this simple. A drivers license is reqired to drive a car on public roads. I am really disappointed Americans have completely given upon their constitutional rights. I guess we deserve what we get.


 
Driving a car is not a right, it's a privilidge.

If some group is making my life horrible in the country I live in, I would work to get rid of that group. If the people of Mexican heritage who live along the Mexican border want this issue to go away, they should help solve the problem instead of helping people cross the border illegally. Long story short, the few (or many) coming into the country is going to make it rough for the people here legally. Gun owners have that same problem, but usally it's only a few who give everyone a bad name.

Crap, lets make EVERYONE in the world U.S citizens and solve this problem once and for all.



> Yes, if someone calls you a honkie, he is a racist too.


 
Dang it, some of my buddies were racists and I didn't even know it. 



> It scare the hell out of me how eaisly you say:
> "The reason why so many legal law abiding citizens will be forced to carry papers is because so many people of their same skin color are breaking the rules (don't see many "white people" sneaking north across the border do you?)." I dont know the statistics but if I remember correclty young black men commit most crimes in this country, lets just search the house of all young black men cause so many people of the same skin color are breaking the law.


 
Dude, if I'm in a grocery store in the middle of a summer day and a guy comes in wearing a long raincoat, my guard will be up.  Not because I have anything agasint guys wearing raincoats...

Likewise, when I get lost driving, and actually end up in Camden NJ at 0100, I'm not going to stop the car and ask for directions with a bunch of "youth" standing on the corner.

By chance if my dog is hit on our rural road by a speading car (very unlikely because all our animals are watched) and I hear the car go by and hop in my truck to go up the road (which I would never do), and there in front of me two cars are pulling into a parking lot, one being an older make oldsmobile with an elderly black women driving it, and the other a "souped" up chevey Neon with those fabulous wings sitting on the trunk driven by a young white male, call me what you will, but I'm leaning towards the young white male as to being the culprit as far as who might of hit my dog.

We are all products of our experiences to some extent.



> I dont think discussing the black vs biracial thing is even worthy of comment


 
Not sure why?  Am I wrong?  Is not the current presidents mother white and his father was black?  if that is indeed the case, why is he (the president) called "black" and not "white"?


----------



## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



dzalphakilo said:


> Driving a car is not a right, it's a privilidge.
> 
> If some group is making my life horrible in the country I live in, I would work to get rid of that group.  If the people of Mexican heritage who live along the Mexican border want this issue to go away, they should help solve the problem instead of helping people cross the border illegally.  Long story short, the few (or many)* coming into the country is going to make it rough for the people here legally*.  Gun owners have that same problem, but usally it's only a few who give everyone a bad name.
> 
> Crap, lets make EVERYONE in the world U.S citizens and solve this problem once and for all.



If we agree to discriminate against a group of legal citizens becase of race, skin color, ethnic.... well we dont deserve the freedoms we have now.  I am sad, think I will start drinking early today.


----------



## waybomb

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



mak2 said:


> You are not really this simple.


 
Actually, yes, it is this simple. So now I am simple. I take that as an insult. Why can't you make a post that does not include slamming other members here? So now I have two liberals on ignore; who's next.


----------



## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

Well, I am sure you cant see this but.....  CYA.


----------



## dzalphakilo

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



> If we agree to discriminate against a group of legal citizens becase of race, skin color, ethnic.... well we dont deserve the freedoms we have now.


 
How are we discriminating? 

Dude, if I ended up next to a couple of fellows on an air plane who look like some Mohammad (insert some long last name here), my guard would be up. Does that make me a biggot or show discrimination because my guard is up?

Like I said, people ruin it for others.

Per that posted news article



> PHOENIX – Arodi Berrelleza isn't one of the targets of Arizona's new anti-illegal immigration law — he's a U.S. citizen.
> *But the 18-year-old high school student from Phoenix said he's afraid he'll be arrested anyway if police see him driving around with friends and relatives, some of them illegal immigrants*.


 
Why the heck should I feel sorry for Mr. Berrelleza? 

If I'm stupid enough to put myself in a situation with people who are breaking the law (which I know is illegal) and I get busted, that's my own stuid ass fault.

If I were Mr. Berrelleza, I'd be pissed at "some" of the wetbacks (AKA illegal immigrant) he's hanging with.

I found out a guy that was driving with me was carrying some weed some time ago. I read him the fuc*ing riot act. Know what would happen to me if a guy in my car was carrying illegal drugs and I had a firearm in my possesion and for some stupid reason I was pulled over or got into an accident? Common sense.



> I am sad, think I will start drinking early today.


 
Ironic, per this discussion and you're avatar, and your drinking comment, Ira Hayes comes to mind.


----------



## bczoom

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

[mod hat on]

As JPR said, settle down boys.  Beat up the issue, not each other.

[/mod hat off]


----------



## jpr62902

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



loboloco said:


> Actually, Federal law requires anyone here on any form of visa to have it on their person at all times. Just Az backing up the Feds.


 


PBinWA said:


> As a permanent resident I am supposed to have my "green card" on me at all times. Never been asked for it but I carry it.


 
Bimp.

Can anyone explain how this AZ bill differs from existing immigration law?


----------



## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

If you think it is ok to demand papers from legal American citizens cause other people with the same skin color do illegal things.  If that is ok and you dont understand the problem with that I dont think explaining it again will help.  People ruin it for others is ok in thrid grade, when it is the constitution of the US it is completely different.


----------



## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



bczoom said:


> [mod hat on]
> 
> As JPR said, settle down boys.  Beat up the issue, not each other.
> 
> [/mod hat off]



Is the moon thing another one of my funnies that piss people off?  Sorry.


----------



## jpr62902

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



mak2 said:


> If you think it is ok to demand papers from legal American citizens cause other people with the same skin color do illegal things. If that is ok and you dont understand the problem with that I dont think explaining it again will help. People ruin it for others is ok in thrid grade, when it is the constitution of the US it is completely different.


 
Does the AZ bill really permit this form of untailored enforcement?


----------



## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

What OP, I have forgotten what we are even talking about.


----------



## pirate_girl

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



mak2 said:


> What OP, I have forgotten what we are even talking about.


Funny how that happens, eh Mak?


----------



## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

*It would also grant police the power to stop and verify the immigration status of anyone they suspect of being illegal. *
Yes, this would allow a police officer to demand papers of anyone who was hispanic looking driving down the highway.


----------



## Cowboy

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



mak2 said:


> *It would also grant police the power to stop and verify the immigration status of anyone they suspect of being illegal. *
> Yes, this would allow a police officer to demand papers of anyone who was hispanic looking driving down the highway.


 

Just curious since this threads been all over the place  . How would this be any different then the so called legal DUI checkpoints or licence checks that are done at the spur of the moment ?


----------



## dzalphakilo

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



mak2 said:


> *It would also grant police the power to stop and verify the immigration status of anyone they suspect of being illegal. *
> Yes, this would allow a police officer to demand papers of anyone who was hispanic looking driving down the highway.


 
And you have your legal papers, you go about your business.

They have these things called police check points. How about we just put one up on every street corner and ask EVERYONE for their "papers"?

Honestly, if I knew doing this would take all the illegals off the street, I would have no problems putting up with this type of check point. This way, you can't say you're discriminating, because you're checking EVERYONE'S "papers".



> How would this be any different then the so called legal DUI checkpoints or licence checks that are done at the spur of the moment ?


 
I'm guessing because ANYONE who came into said checkpoint would be "checked out" unlike leaving it to the descretion (sp?) of the LEO's.


----------



## jpr62902

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



mak2 said:


> *It would also grant police the power to stop and verify the immigration status of anyone they suspect of being illegal. *
> Yes, this would allow a police officer to demand papers of anyone who was hispanic looking driving down the highway.


 
Where does it say a police officer can, "demand papers of anyone who was hispanic looking driving down the highway?"

If the bill permits such conduct, I think it's wrong, and probably unconstitutional.  But the article doesn't say that.

What does the bill say?


----------



## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



Cowboy said:


> Just curious since this threads been all over the place  . How would this be any different then the so called legal DUI checkpoints or licence checks that are done at the spur of the moment ?



I dont think the random roadblocks for seatbelts or drinking are constitutional  either.  But I am not as worked up about them because driving is a privilige not a right as a citizen like the search and seizure thing.


----------



## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



jpr62902 said:


> Where does it say a police officer can, "demand papers of anyone who was hispanic looking driving down the highway?"
> 
> If the bill permits such conduct, I think it's wrong, and probably unconstitutional.  But the article doesn't say that.
> 
> What does the bill say?



Well, maybe I read too much into this.  If he doesnt demand papers how does he verify he is legal?


----------



## Cowboy

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



jpr62902 said:


> Where does it say a police officer can, "demand papers of anyone who was hispanic looking driving down the highway?"
> 
> If the bill permits such conduct, I think it's wrong, and probably unconstitutional. But the article doesn't say that.
> 
> What does the bill say?


 
Sorry jpr , been so long since I looked at the Original post its hard for me to remember WTF were talking about . I was just saying The cops have the legal right to put up checkpoints anytime they want & pick & choose who they ask for papers from . 

At least around here they do . I just dont see the difference myself , They are trying to catch people that are doing anything illegal , wether its driving under the influence drinking/Drugs or no insurance, seatbelt , Suspended drivers licence or warrants OR being here illegally . 

Wether I agree with it or not Its not neceasirlly a bad thing as They have everyones safety in mind & Making sure laws aren,t being broken IMO .


----------



## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



dzalphakilo said:


> And you have your legal papers, you go about your business.
> 
> They have these things called police check points. How about we just put one up on every street corner and ask EVERYONE for their "papers"?
> 
> Honestly, if I knew doing this would take all the illegals off the street, I would have no problems putting up with this type of check point. This way, you can't say you're discriminating, because you're checking EVERYONE'S "papers".
> 
> 
> 
> I'm guessing because ANYONE who came into said checkpoint would be "checked out" unlike leaving it to the descretion (sp?) of the LEO's.



Do you really think checkpoints to check peoples papers in America is ok?  Wow.


----------



## RobsanX

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



Cowboy said:


> Just curious since this threads been all over the place  . How would this be any different then the so called legal DUI checkpoints or licence checks that are done at the spur of the moment ?



Not that I agree with any kind of police checkpoint, but in that case they have to have probable cause to pull you over. Probable cause could be something as small as having an air freshener hanging from your mirror, or your tag light being burnt out. It's one of those cases of the police pushing right up to the line without crossing it.

What the probable cause for these stops? BigAl says that it is racial profiling. So is that it? If you have brown skin are you guilty until proven innocent? The neo-cons don't mind. I won't even do them the honor of calling them conservative, because true conservatives believe in upholding the Constitution.


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## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

I cant beleive they have aruged the point the authorities should be able to stop citizens at will and demand papers all morning.  Unbelieveable.  Next time they bring up the constitution I will have to whip out the LOL smilie. I am stuck here cause I am doing laundry.


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## dzalphakilo

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



mak2 said:


> Do you really think checkpoints to check peoples papers in America is ok? Wow.


 
Honetsly, no.

However, I sincerely think that sooner or later, the freedoms we all take for granted will some day be our own demise as a nation.

Personally, I'd be willing have some headaches for the time being if it would ensure that ANYONE and EVERYONE who is living in our country is here legally.


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## Cowboy

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



RobsanX said:


> Not that I agree with any kind of police checkpoint, but in that case they have to have probable cause to pull you over. Probable cause could be something as small as having an air freshener hanging from your mirror, or your tag light being burnt out. It's one of those cases of the police pushing right up to the line without crossing it.
> 
> What the probable cause for these stops? BigAl says that it is racial profiling. So is that it? If you have brown skin are you guilty until proven innocent? The neo-cons don't mind. I won't even do them the honor of calling them conservative, because true conservatives believe in upholding the Constitution.


 
Rob , I,m not sure if every state is different or not . Here there is no need for probable cause . Its a checkpoint period & as far as I know its legal .

  But once again I probablly dont have a right to an opinion since I haven,t drove for a long time . I let my Drivers licence expire over 8 years ago when they made it state law I had to have My social security # on it as well as fishing & hunting licences .  

 The Illegals have the same choice as I had


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## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



Cowboy said:


> Rob , I,m not sure if every state is different or not . Here there is no need for probable cause . Its a checkpoint period & as far as I know its legal .
> 
> But once again I probablly dont have a right to an opinion since I haven,t drove for a long time . I let my Drivers licence expire over 8 years ago when they made it state law I had to have My social security # on it as well as fishing & hunting licences .
> 
> The Illegals have the same choice as I had



Cowboy, how bout if the Feds come out to your place and say a bunch of cowboy looking guys snuck accross the border adn demand to see your "papers". That is what we are talking about.  

 How can that possibly be ok with you guys?


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## dzalphakilo

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



> Not that I agree with any kind of police checkpoint, but in that case they have to have probable cause to pull you over.


 
Get your facts straight. The police DO NOT have to have probably cause to have you stop at a check point. Now, at that point if they find something out of the ordinary, they can pull you over and proceed more in depth.



> What the probable cause for these stops? BigAl says that it is racial profiling. So is that it? If you have brown skin are you guilty until proven innocent? The neo-cons don't mind. I won't even do them the honor of calling them conservative, because true conservatives believe in upholding the Constitution


 
Screw it, check EVERYONE so no one can say your profiling. As a U.S Citizen, I be more than willing to subject to these checkpoints to ensure illegals were taken off the streets.

Problem is, the wetbacks will have it figured out and then stay off the streets



> Cowboy, how bout if the Feds come out to your place and say a bunch of cowboy looking guys snuck accross the border adn demand to see your "papers". That is what we are talking about.


 
Because once I was "checked out", I would be in the clear. I have nothing to hide. Want to come onto my property to check me out, fine. I'll have a problem if you come out a second time for the same issue.  Then I'm guessing it could border on the lines of harrasment.

What people tend to forget is that freedom isn't (free in more ways than one). 

As I've said before, lets just take Mexico's policy on illegal aliens.


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## RobsanX

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



Cowboy said:


> Rob , I,m not sure if every state is different or not . Here there is no need for probable cause . Its a checkpoint period & as far as I know its legal .
> 
> But once again I probablly dont have a right to an opinion since I haven,t drove for a long time . I let my Drivers licence expire over 8 years ago when they made it state law I had to have My social security # on it as well as fishing & hunting licences .
> 
> The Illegals have the same choice as I had



That's what's confusing about it. They can stop you, they can talk to you, but they have to have cause to pull you out of line, and take it to the next level.


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## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



dzalphakilo said:


> Get your facts straight. The police DO NOT have to have probably cause to have you stop at a check point. Now, at that point if they find something out of the ordinary, they can pull you over and proceed more in depth.
> 
> 
> 
> Screw it, check EVERYONE so no one can say your profiling. As a U.S Citizen, I be more than willing to subject to these checkpoints to ensure illegals were taken off the streets.
> 
> Problem is, the wetbacks will have it figured out and then stay off the streets
> 
> 
> Because once I was "checked out", I would be in the clear. I have nothing to hide. Want to come onto my property to check me out, fine. I'll have a problem if you come out a second time for the same issue.  Then I'm guessing it could border on the lines of harrasment.
> 
> What people tend to forget is that freedom isn't (free in more ways than one).
> 
> As I've said before, lets just take Mexico's policy on illegal aliens.



What freedom?  IF you want to allow the authorities to just come into your home at will you dont care about any freedoms.


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## dzalphakilo

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



RobsanX said:


> That's what's confusing about it. They can stop you, they can talk to you, but they have to have cause to pull you out of line, and take it to the next level.


 
I can see why you get confused

Normally, what do they ask you for at a police check point?

Here is a hint, if you don't have your proper drivers license on your along with a proper insurance card, or if you breath smells of alcohol, OR you have some sort of contraband sticking out like a sore thumb, CHANCES are they are going to take it to the next level.

Anyone here get stopped at a check point who is a legal US citizen, has their drivers license, and is "legal to drive" get pulled over if you were stone sober?

As previously mentioned, driving is not a right.


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## Cowboy

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



mak2 said:


> Cowboy, how bout if the Feds come out to your place and say a bunch of cowboy looking guys snuck accross the border adn demand to see your "papers". That is what we are talking about.
> 
> How can that possibly be ok with you guys?


 

I dont think your getting my point Mak . Do I mind if My wife gets pulled over in a checkpoint that they are doing to make sure she,s safe on the highways , NO & She has no problems with it either . 

 Now Since I gave up my driving privledges by choice because of then demanding My SS # on My licences , Not because I,m wanted or scared of being pulled over doing something illegal , Other then Yes I have carryed a gun since I was a kid & have been known to drink a few beers while I,m driving the backroads . Thats the way I was brought up . 

  I did nothing to have those rights taken away . Laws just changed & I dont like them , Used to be around here it was legal to drink 3.2 beer why you were driving as long as you weren,t drunk , same as carrying a gun . Hell I used to even be able to smoke any place I wanted  

Times change , You either adapt or not . I chose to do the latter . 

  To address What I would do if the feds stormed my property & wanted to see My papers . Not only would I not like it , I,d probablly prove I didn,t like it .


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## jpr62902

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



Cowboy said:


> The cops have the legal right to put up checkpoints anytime they want & pick & choose who they ask for papers from .


 
I don't think so. I'm aware of two SCOTUS cases that provide limited permissibility with regard to checkpoints.

UNITED STATES V. MARTINEZ-FUERTE, allows _permanent_ checkpoints to verify immigration status. As I understand, all passers through these checkpoints are required to verify their rightful presence in the US. http://supreme.justia.com/us/428/543/case.html

_Michigan Department of State Police v. Sitz_ permits _random_ checkpoints for DUI purposes. These checkpoints are permissible if drivers are randomly selected to verify their status, unless probable cause is shown. http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0496_0444_ZO.html

Y'all might have better info on this. I'm relying on my Con Law classes from almost 20 years ago.


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## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

How bout if we set up check points in high crime neighborhoods.  Just stop cars at "random" check out their papers er seat belts, any stolen stereos in the trunk, make sure they act "normal", you guys really ok with that?  Hey it would cut down on drugs and crime.


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## Cowboy

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



jpr62902 said:


> I don't think so. I'm aware of two SCOTUS cases that provide limited permissibility with regard to checkpoints.
> 
> UNITED STATES V. MARTINEZ-FUERTE, allows _permanent_ checkpoints to verify immigration status. As I understand, all passers through these checkpoints are required to verify their rightful presence in the US. http://supreme.justia.com/us/428/543/case.html
> 
> _Michigan Department of State Police v. Sitz_ permits _random_ checkpoints for DUI purposes. These checkpoints are permissible if drivers are randomly selected to verify their status, unless probable cause is shown. http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0496_0444_ZO.html
> 
> Y'all might have better info on this. I'm relying on my Con Law classes from almost 20 years ago.


 

I dont know either but its on the local news here every week .  Each time they say what laws were broken & how many were taken into custody . Some times it is for being an illegal imigrant . But this is Kansas , There used to be a sign on the KS Nebraska border that said ( set your watch back 100 years You are now entering kansas . Green river ordinance applies )


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## Cowboy

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



mak2 said:


> How bout if we set up check points in high crime neighborhoods. Just stop cars at "random" check out their papers er seat belts, any stolen stereos in the trunk, make sure they act "normal", you guys really ok with that? Hey it would cut down on drugs and crime.


 

That would mean goin up against gangs Mak . Allthough Wichita has a gang enforcement unit . I think in most cases they wait for the gangs to come to them


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## OhioTC18 RIP

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



Cowboy said:


> Green river ordinance applies )


A Green River Ordinance is prohibiting soliciting door to door without a permit or license.


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## Cowboy

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



OhioTC18 said:


> A Green River Ordinance is prohibiting soliciting door to door without a permit or license.


 
Not in Kansas TC , They used the term jokinglly meaning turn around & go back Speed trap . I dont know if they even have the signs up in the small towns anymore Or the one I,m talking about on the border . 

  But its not as bad as the ones They used to have entering some small towns in Oklahoma years ago . Posting a afterdark curfew for some people


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## dzalphakilo

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



mak2 said:


> What freedom? IF you want to allow the authorities to just come into your home at will you dont care about any freedoms.


 
How many times do you actually think the authorities are going to come to my home?

As mentioned previously, they should have a good reason.

You might of missed it, but every once in a while I'm the guy who brings up Ruby Ridge. I very familiar and scared what the goverment can do.

That said, I have nothing to hide. 



> How bout if we set up check points in high crime neighborhoods. Just stop cars at "random" check out their papers er seat belts, any stolen stereos in the trunk, make sure they act "normal", you guys really ok with that? Hey it would cut down on drugs and crime.


 
If you aren't breaking any crimes, you don't have any worries.

Likewise, if you're carrying 100 pounds of weed in the car, you shouldn't be speeding and your seat belts better be buckled up and you ensure you have you're drivers license and registration on you, and ALWAYS call the LEO "officer" and answer with a "yes" and/or "no" to the question.


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## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

IT just matters that they can.


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## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

Fourtuantely, what you guys say is ok with you is still illegal almost everywhere in US, unless you are hispanic in Arizona.  Didnt someone on one of these threads say we were the country with the most freedoms in the world?  Geeze.


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## dzalphakilo

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



mak2 said:


> Fourtuantely, what you guys say is ok with you is still illegal almost everywhere in US, unless you are hispanic in Arizona. Didnt someone on one of these threads say we were the country with the most freedoms in the world? Geeze.


 
And ironically enough, even those now living in the state of Arizona still probably have more freedoms AND rights than people living in the rest of the world.



> IT just matters that they can.


 
A "good" cop can stop me for any reason he wants to. A "good cop" could also probably arrest me for any reason he wants to make up or drop on me.

The FACT is, this is still the best damn country in the world.

Don't worry, Arizona won't have the man power nor funds to keep this "thing" going.  Then it will become like the Patriot act, only difference is that a State initiated it, not the Feds.


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## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



dzalphakilo said:


> The FACT is, this is still the best damn country in the world.
> 
> Get over it or re up.



I love it when you talk like that.


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## jpr62902

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

Just so y'all can talk about this from an informed perspective, here's the bill:

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf


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## jpr62902

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



mak2 said:


> How bout if we set up check points in high crime neighborhoods. Just stop cars at "random" check out their papers er seat belts, any stolen stereos in the trunk, make sure they act "normal", you guys really ok with that? Hey it would cut down on drugs and crime.


 
Probably wouldn't pass Constitutional muster, per _Michigan v. Sitz_.

It seems the bill does not provide for AZ LEO to stop folks based on skin color. It reads:


*B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY **OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT **PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).*

(emphasis added)​


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## dzalphakilo

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



mak2 said:


> I love it when you talk like that.


 
Please keep in mind, I'm not trying to make excuses

We are not a perfect country and we're still learning.

Here is a question though...

ALL of my grandparents came over on a boat in the 1900's and stopped at Ellis island.  Both sets of families learned how to speak English but spoke their native language in the home.  Both grandfathers died "young" while working in the coal mines, and all my aunts and uncles "chipped in" by working to keep the family unit going (by the way, "Honkey" for me is a slavonic term, not a "white term").

Pretty much ALL of my uncles (and father) served in the armed forces, more than a couple killed in some wars.  

1.  Why is the influx of illegal aliens now from Mexico coming across the border?  Did these illegal aliens exist prior to the 1950's?  What changed?

2.  Why when I go to a movie with my wife, why do little spanish kids have to translate for their parents at the movies?


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## SShepherd

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/rightsandfreedoms/a/illegalrights.htm

*Do Illegal Aliens Have Constitutional Rights?*

*Courts Have Ruled They Do*


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## muleman RIP

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

Come on up to NY and see what checkpoints are all about. 8-10 troopers and sheriffs stop every car both directions long enough to check for seat belts,inspection and current tag. The first unit each direction has a scanner camera that reads and runs your tag to see if you have anything outstanding. If you are clean it takes about as long as a long red light. I don't like it but it keeps a lot of law breakers off the road. If they come on my property they had better have a warrant or they will be asked to leave. Since they can't find my place without asking directions I don't worry about it.


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## mak2

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

SS, I dont care about illegals and it has no bearing on this discussion.  The problem is it casues leagal American rights to be infringed. I have said over and over, illegals should be deported adn those that hire them jailed.  This is not about the rights of illegeals.


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## SShepherd

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*



mak2 said:


> SS, I dont care about illegals and it has no bearing on this discussion. The problem is it casues leagal American rights to be infringed. I have said over and over, illegals should be deported adn those that hire them jailed. This is not about the rights of illegeals.


 
in effect it does, because people keep muddying the waters with "racial profiling" and "what ifs'"
I really think this is much ado about nothing personally. Someone mentioned before, a cop can "find" a reason to pull anyone over--period. Weaving in your lane, or one of the many moving violations can be a simple reason. Some states even make it perfectly legal for the police to stop you- as a driver- and ask for your lic. and other documentation to see if you are a valid driver.
When a crime has been comitted, police can search ANYONE in the area, or fitting a description, as part of a criminal investigation. Thats probable cause enough. When they recieve a call saying " 15 people crossed the boarder, and as part of the description are listed as hispanic, the can search everyone the come in contact that matches that description- citizen or illegal.
here's the law on Probable Cause:

Probable cause is a standard used in justifying certain police actions. For example, police need to have probable cause to believe evidence of a crime exists in requesting a search warrant to be issued. It is more than mere suspicion but less than the amount of evidence required for conviction.
The Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution has two clauses. The first states that people have a right to be protected from unreasonable searches and seizures, and the second states that no warrant shall issue except upon probable cause. *Probable cause is the level of evidence held by a rational and objective observer necessary to justify logically accusing a specific suspect of a particular crime based upon reliable objective facts.*
For example, a police officer may claim there is probable cause for attempted theft when someone is found trespassing on private property late at night wearing a stocking mask, in order to justify stopping and searching the person for possession of criminal tools.


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## pirate_girl

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

Posted on April 26, 2010 at 7:30 AM
Updated today at 10:02 AM 

PHOENIX -- Investigators are looking into a case of vandalism at the state Capitol, sparked by the newly signed anti-illegal-immigration law.

Capitol police arrived on the scene at about 6 a.m., after a swastika was found smeared on the glass doors of the House and Senate buildings.

While it first looked like mud on the doors, it turned out be refried beans.

On the sidewalk, beans were used to write "AZ=Nazi," again with a swastika.

It's not clear when exactly the vandalism happened, but police believe it was some time overnight.

"That is what happens when there is so much fear and there is so much disappointment," said Gustavo Ramirez, a protester from California. "The laws that have been passed, they are Nazi laws. They are not considering humanity. They are a crime against humanity."

Ramirez said while he does not support the new law, vandalism is not the way to make a statement.

This is the first case of hate-crime vandalism since Gov. Jan Brewer signed the controversial Senate Bill 1070 into law on Friday.

While there have been protests and rallies by people on both sides of the issue, they have been peaceful.

Protesters are still at the Capitol, vowing to stay and peacefully make their voices heard. The new law will go into effect this summer.

Those opposed to the measure say it essentially legalizes racial profiling.

Supporters say that's not the case. Law-enforcement representatives and the governor insist that racial profiling will not be tolerated.

While protests have been nearly constant since Friday's signing, polls taken before that indicated a majority of Arizonans -- 70 percent -- were in favor of SB 1070.

..link and video

http://www.azfamily.com/news/Swastikas-painted-with-beans-found-on-Capitol-grounds-92091314.html


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## RobsanX

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

Well you can't spell Nazi with out AZ!


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## JEV

*Re: "Show us your papers!" AZ law will force people to prove citizenship to police...*

Looks like the liberal democrat machine has kicked into high gear. Pretty original using refried beans to make their message. Probably didn't have enough money to buy a can of spray paint, so they used what they had in the cupboard. If they would have just gone to the local ACORN or SEIU  office, they could have gotten a _CASE_ of spray paint in their choice of colors. Probably could have gotten some templates as well.


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