# is war right?



## ElfLove

if you believe war is acceptable if in the name of a good cause dose that mean I can kill you in the name of peace?


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## JEV

ElfLove said:


> if you believe war is acceptable if in the name of a good cause dose that mean I can kill you in the name of peace?


I think you may just have crossed the line, and are rapidly becoming irrelevant.


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## BigAl RIP

War is never right . We all lose in one way or another . When another country decides to use violence to make thier point it should be the last option they have .


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## ElfLove

JEV said:


> I think you may just have crossed the line, and are rapidly becoming irrelevant.



fair enough  I was trying to point out the pointlessness of a war in general with one phrase sorry   it didn't work I won't do it again. I guess I'm still used to sites like twitter sorry


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## BigAl RIP

ElfLove said:


> fair enough  I was trying to point out the pointlessness of a war in general with one phrase sorry  it didn't work I won't do it again. I guess I'm still used to sites like twitter sorry


 
 Word of advice to a 19 year old . *NEVER be sorry for what you believe in* !


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## ElfLove

BigAl said:


> Word of advice to a 19 year old . *NEVER be sorry for what you believe in* !



I'm not sorry for my belief that war is wrong, I am sorry that I created a thread that in JEV's words is irrelevant. which is fair enough but I did think this was for an off topic debate which is where you go to debate irrelevant stuff  which is also why I feel it is ok to say this. I'm not arguing or even disagreeing I'm just debating the right and wrong of posting a thread like this in a forum entitled Off Topic Debate Forum


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## BigAl RIP

Stick around and you will find there are quite a number of people who may or may not agree with you . Back up your beliefs with good sources and let the cards fall where they may .


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## bczoom

War is not determined by whom is right.  It's determined by whom is left.


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## bczoom

This pretty much lays it out.


“War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things, the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse. When a people are used as mere human instruments for firing cannon or thrusting bayonets, in the service and for the selfish purposes of a master, such war degrades a people. A war to protect other human beings against tyrannical injustice; a war to give victory to their own ideas of right and good, and which is their own war, carried on for an honest purpose by their free choice, — is often the means of their regeneration. A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.”

― John Stuart Mill


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## ElfLove

bczoom said:


> War is not determined by whom is right.  It's determined by whom is left.



I have to disagree with that. I believe war is wrong all together. while war is being though and blood is being spilled men and women in suits are discussing peace. if you look over history, more times than not war has ended when these men and women of discussion have come to a conclusion not when everyone is dead. so i believe its determined by who has the best negotiator there is no need for the war to be their.


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## ElfLove

bczoom said:


> This pretty much lays it out.
> 
> 
> “War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things, the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse. When a people are used as mere human instruments for firing cannon or thrusting bayonets, in the service and for the selfish purposes of a master, such war degrades a people. A war to protect other human beings against tyrannical injustice; a war to give victory to their own ideas of right and good, and which is their own war, carried on for an honest purpose by their free choice, — is often the means of their regeneration. A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.”
> 
> ― John Stuart Mill



I feel verry strongly about that statement by John Stuart Mill. it is very possible to be free and have beliefs and values that you are willing to die for without needing to purposely try and take another life. when that belief is that another life should not be taken due to their belief being different then it is simple to me at least that you discuss it with them rather than take their life. lead by example. to take their life for having a different view to you goes against why you are killing them, to supposedly protect those that he or she is killing because they have different views to what he dose. its a vicious circle that has to end with one man/woman not killing the other.


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## REDDOGTWO

I am sure that Hitler would have been very interested in your point of view.  I am sure that he would have sat down over a cup of tea with the emperor of Japan and them would have discussed the merits of your ideas on the subject.

Sometimes war is necessary.


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## EastTexFrank

ElfLove said:


> I have to disagree with that. I believe war is wrong all together. while war is being though and blood is being spilled men and women in suits are discussing peace. if you look over history, more times than not war has ended when these men and women of discussion have come to a conclusion not when everyone is dead. so i believe its determined by who has the best negotiator there is no need for the war to be their.



That is so wrong Elf my love.  War ends when the men in suits are FORCED to a conclusion not when they magnanimously reach one.  As long as both sides believe that there is a chance that they can win there will be NO agreement and the battle continues. 

Whoever said that, "The pen (or word) is mightier than the sword" never stood in front of a fully loaded automatic rifle.


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## mak2

I believe in war and self defense, on an individual and national level.  I think spending bizillions a year on arms is stupid, and having guys in Afghanistan and Iraq for extended periods of time is stupid too.  Perhaps Afghanistan is the first justified war we have had since WWII.  But we are still there and will be for a lot longer, burning that ammo and buying more.  Using Afghanistan as an example. When the Taliban was protected by the Afghans and they did what they did, the US should have geared up, put all military and economic resources into totally destroying the country and taking whatever we want to pay us for the trouble, then come home.  But only do this when it is self defense. Afghanistan should have been a balls to the wall, kill em all and let God sort them out sort of thing then come home. When the first round comes downrange at one of our guys they should get the full meal deal.  IF we are not cutting loose and kicking ass, our people should not go.  

Seems since WWII we have mainly went to war for economic reasons.


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## Danang Sailor

ElfLove said:


> fair enough  I was trying to point out the pointlessness of a war in general with one phrase sorry   it didn't work I won't do it again. I guess I'm still used to sites like twitter sorry




You sound like one of the many who believe violence, raw, unmitigated force, has never really solved anything; I would
ask that you convene a panel to debate this.  The panel could be made up of the Dodo, the Great Auk, and the Passenger
Pigeon.  It could be refereed by Hilter and Lenin, and judged by a jury composed of the city fathers of Carthage.

War may sometimes be the final result of failed diplomacy, but it is often the only way to prevent even more unspeakable
horrors.  And yes, there certainly are things much worse than the hell of war.  At your age I don't really expect you  to
believe that, but it is the truth nonetheless.


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## luvs

while war may be beyond painful in so very many ways, it's a reality. right/wrong- i say that depends. if a country decides to attack America, it's on. war can be horrific. i've seen the aftermath. yet, if we looked the other way, that's on us.


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## ElfLove

Danang Sailor said:


> You sound like one of the many who believe violence, raw, unmitigated force, has never really solved anything; I would
> ask that you convene a panel to debate this. The panel could be made up of the Dodo, the Great Auk, and the Passenger
> Pigeon. It could be refereed by Hilter and Lenin, and judged by a jury composed of the city fathers of Carthage.
> 
> War may sometimes be the final result of failed diplomacy, but it is often the only way to prevent even more unspeakable
> horrors. And yes, there certainly are things much worse than the hell of war. At your age I don't really expect you to
> believe that, but it is the truth nonetheless.


 
I respect what you are trying to say here, that it would nearly be impossible for my ides to work in reality when looking and the grand scale of some of the atrocities carried out in war. but if (I don't know if you have read my other views about how countries shouldn't exist and the word should be united) we had a united world where everything was equally distributed then my idea of people talking and negotiation would work. my views on everything all ties in to the idea that the world should be united and not divided in to different civilizations. 

and just to say to the last bit,  





> And yes*,* there certainly are things much worse than the hell of war. At your age I don't really expect you to
> believe that, but it is the truth nonetheless


. I don't think anyone who has lived through the battlefield of a war weather it be a soldier or the civilians living in the crossfire would agree with you. some of the stuff that takes place in war, lives taken, prisoners slaughtered, innocent people killed for crossing the road at the wrong time, and children watching their parents murderers rewarded for the work they did. if you think their is anything that is real in this world that is more horrific than this... *please keep it to your self!!,* I would be happier living in ignorance.


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## luvs

they say ignorance is bliss. it's not. bliss is a chocolate candy, now. rocks fer a few minutes, & then it's gone.
life continues.

ur life is ur life.
live in a pseudo-bubble. bothers me not. ppl pass. wrong occurs. life is not fair. life is a blend of worries, woes, grins, great daze, pain....... get used to reality. cannot dodge that 1.


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## JenKennings

Off-Topic, slightly............. I'm remembering an old quote, can't remember by whom........
"respect those who are earnestly searching for truth; suspect those who say they've found it ."


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## loboloco

Elf, I have been through combat and war.  Believe me, there are many things worse than war.
as for peace, how do you define it?  what are you willing to give up to achieve it? How do you enforce it?
Can you have redistribution without a means of forcing those who earn and produce the goods to give them up to those unwilling to get off their butts and work?

What your view of the world forgets is that there are irrational people in it.  In order to keep the majority of the world protected from them there must be military forces and occasionally they have to be used.


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## mak2

What does that have to do with the OP?





loboloco said:


> Elf, I have been through combat and war.  Believe me, there are many things worse than war.
> as for peace, how do you define it?  what are you willing to give up to achieve it? How do you enforce it?
> *Can you have redistribution without a means of forcing those who earn and produce the goods to give them up to those unwilling to get off their butts and work?*
> What your view of the world forgets is that there are irrational people in it.  In order to keep the majority of the world protected from them there must be military forces and occasionally they have to be used.


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## jimbo

EL, IMO part of the problem with the younger generation is that the last war with the US involved that had a clear reason was WW II.  I've yet to understand the reason for Korea, Viet Nam, or the current wars.  Going after Iraq to catch a terrorist who was probably hiding in Afghanistan or Pakistan, to extract revenge for an incident inflicted by a bunch of Saudis living in the US?  Somebody please explain.

Over the history of this country, we've fought a few cannot be avoided wars, but mostly the wars could and should have been avoided.

If we had not made ourselves involved in WW II, we those few of us not led to the gas chambers would be speaking German.


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## luvs

i speak German.~ i'm not of that era, tho


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## loboloco

mak2 said:


> What does that have to do with the OP?


In reply to some of the posts by Elflove, the originator of the op.


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## mla2ofus

ElfLove said:


> it is very possible to be free and have beliefs and values that you are willing to die for without needing to purposely try and take another life. when that belief is that another life should not be taken due to their belief being different then it is simple to me at least that you discuss it with them rather than take their life.



  Please tell these words to the taliban, alqueda(sp) and all the the other islamic jihadists. I'm sure they'll take those words to heart.
                                          Mike


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## loboloco

Elf, if you are interested, here is a fair dissertation on the use of 'just war', and some of the parameters and limitations thereof.  It also discusses pacifism and realism in relation to war.
I do not agree with all of the statements in the article but it is overall, a fair treatment of the subject.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/war/


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## ElfLove

mla2ofus said:


> Please tell these words to the taliban, alqueda(sp) and all the the other islamic jihadists. I'm sure they'll take those words to heart.
> Mike


 
this is the main problem with my views, no one is willing to take the first step. if one side shows humility after winning and shows repect and suddenly started to help the people of the previous enemy, peoples views of there suposed enamies would change. and if everyone was under a united banner of the world rather than trying to progress the interessts of individual groups it would all fit in to place. "no one wants to go to war with their brother but will with a stranger". basically as long as people are divided they will have different interests, if the world where to unite then everyones needs and interests become everyones. all humans can be missled and all can misslead so I say forgive those who have been trying to kill you when you have won and show them that guns and govenments are only there to help the few and not the many. I know that it would be hard and I don't claim to have the complete answer or even say that I understand everything but when you look at it verry simpley: millions of people are killing others for haveing different views to their own. surely anything that could stop this is better even if it means a large proportion of people haveing less than they have now. all we need in life is food shelter and happines, some people don't have this. I say we give people these things. 

yes I realize most people would discribe this view as fantacizing and hippie like. but if people aren't willing to try it and reply "well others won't follow" then how will you know it won't work. verry simply "don't knock it untill you try it"


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## Melensdad

ElfLove said:


> if you believe war is acceptable if in the name of a good cause dose that mean I can kill you in the name of peace?



Yes. 

I'm of the belief that the Catholics pretty much have the concept of "just war" figured out. If you are unfamiliar with their concept its worth looking up the Catholic view of a just war. Doesn't matter if you believe in any faith, their analysis is spot on. Would have allowed for Afghanistan but disallowed Iraq. Seems very logical.


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## ElfLove

Melensdad said:


> Yes.
> 
> I'm of the belief that the Catholics pretty much have the concept of "just war" figured out. If you are unfamiliar with their concept its worth looking up the Catholic view of a just war. Doesn't matter if you believe in any faith, their analysis is spot on. Would have allowed for Afghanistan but disallowed Iraq. Seems very logical.


 
I understand this view and I can see some logic of idea that it created justice and people need to pay for what they have done. but I also say by doing this then more injustice is created and then those you set out to punnish end up haveing just cause under the same beleif to retaleate against the new injstice and continues on and on.


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## luvs

ElfLove said:


> basically all we need in life is food shelter and happines, some people don't have this. I say we give people these things.


 
u cannot give ppl an emotion. 
i give to ppl when i know they're actually sans items. that aside- how 'bout comforts~ a shower. a comforter. security, within. a meal @ the table w/ luved ones. laughs. grins. a phone. tv. friends. new shoes. a jacket. many have nada showers, limited reads, relinquish  fer. most of us; we're adapted to a way of being that is comfy & 'an 'at. they may get jobs. they may not. jus' sayin~


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## ElfLove

luvs said:


> u cannot give ppl an emotion.
> i give to ppl when i know they're actually sans items. that aside- how 'bout comforts~ a shower. a comforter. security, within. a meal @ the table w/ luved ones. laughs. grins. a phone. tv. friends. new shoes. a jacket. many have nada showers, limited reads, relinquish  fer. most of us; we're adapted to a way of being that is comfy & 'an 'at. they may get jobs. they may not. jus' sayin~



I said its all we need, I say after everyone has these basic essential they will be happy, especially if they have not had it before. everything after that is a bonus. I don't think we should do without comfort and other things like luxuries but to me it seems wrong that so many have so much they don't even use when others don't have basic essentials, hence the belief of distributing everything equally.


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## luvs

now, this is a guy in need, & not by choice. i oft see this. too much. sad. he's not 
he's got cement, spare change, a pillow, & that's his day.


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## luvs

ElfLove said:


> I said its all we need, I say after everyone has these basic essential they will be happy, especially if they have not had it before. everything after that is a bonus. I don't think we should do without comfort and other things like luxuries but to me it seems wrong that so many have so much they don't even use when others don't have basic essentials, hence the belief of distributing everything equally.


 
i typed of nary 'equality'.
this would be 'equality'- snooze on the concrete tonite after u skip brekkie, lunch, dinner, snacks~
no shower. shave. clean gear. pride.


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## Danang Sailor

ElfLove said:


> I don't think anyone who has lived through the battlefield of a war weather it be a soldier or the civilians living in the crossfire would agree with you. some of the stuff that takes place in war, lives taken, prisoners slaughtered, innocent people killed for crossing the road at the wrong time, and children watching their parents murderers rewarded for the work they did. if you think their is anything that is real in this world that is more horrific than this... *please keep it to your self!!,* I would be happier living in ignorance.



As a matter of fact I have lived through war, and have seen both the atrocities and the nobility it can create.  I have seen
friends die, and civilians who were killed for one reason or the other, and yes, I have killed as well.  I feel that my views on
this are at least as valid as those of a young girl who has seen none of this, except perhaps on the telly in the comfort of her
cozy living room.  There are other military folks on FF who can speak to whether or not they agree with me, although
if you ask I believe you'll be both surprised and disappointed  by their answer.

This may have been best summed up by one of the greatest of your countrymen:

 "We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."
-- Winston Churchill



And yes, there really are worse things, some of which have lead to the wars you despise.  In consideration  of your
request, they will not be discussed here.


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## Leni

There are times when it is right.  If the world had stood up to Hitler or Stalin when they were killing people that would have been right and it would have saved a lot of lives.  

If it is to take over something that it is not yours, then it is not right.  If you have to ask if war is right then you have to look at the reason it is being waged.


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## ElfLove

Danang Sailor said:


> As a matter of fact I have lived through war, and have seen both the atrocities and the nobility it can create.  I have seen
> friends die, and civilians who were killed for one reason or the other, and yes, I have killed as well.  I feel that my views on
> this are at least as valid as those of a young girl who has seen none of this, except perhaps on the telly in the comfort of her
> cozy living room.  There are other military folks on FF who can speak to whether or not they agree with me, although
> if you ask I believe you'll be both surprised and disappointed  by their answer.
> 
> This may have been best summed up by one of the greatest of your countrymen:
> 
> "We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."
> -- Winston Churchill
> 
> 
> 
> And yes, there really are worse things, some of which have lead to the wars you despise.  In consideration  of your
> request, they will not be discussed here.



if you really have lived through wars and served in the armed forces then I would consider and accept what you are saying, but obviously as I have no proof that your view is that of a person who has lived through these things all I will say is, I respect you have your own opinion but I can not change my own without solid evidence and opinions from people I know that have experienced both war and the events that you claim to be worse than war.


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## bczoom

I'll vouch for Danang Sailor as being a veteran and speaks the truth in these matters.

Elf - There's a lot of Veteran's on this site.


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## mak2

I believe anything Danang Sailor says.  Might not agree with it...but accept what he is saying.  





ElfLove said:


> if you really have lived through wars and served in the armed forces then I would consider and accept what you are saying, but obviously as I have no proof that your view is that of a person who has lived through these things all I will say is, I respect you have your own opinion but I can not change my own without solid evidence and opinions from people I know that have experienced both war and the events that you claim to be worse than war.


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## luvs

i'm the Granddaughter of a decorated, high-ranking veteran, & friends w/ several veterans. my now-ex served. several of the guys @ the bar i frequent have served.
may not have seen combat personally, tho i know quite much of the goings-on & its effect on a person~


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## Leni

ElfLove said:


> if you really have lived through wars and served in the armed forces then I would consider and accept what you are saying, but obviously as I have no proof that your view is that of a person who has lived through these things all I will say is, I respect you have your own opinion but I can not change my own without solid evidence and opinions from people I know that have experienced both war and the events that you claim to be worse than war.


 
WHAT! What proof would you want? A copy of his DD214? Elf, we have been honest with you. Why are you doubting us? This is insulting. Yes I am pissed off.


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## mla2ofus

I think elflove's typing but not reading!!
                                       Mike


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## Catavenger

So if a bunch of paratroopers from nation X landed and started herding people into death camps you would just say "hey  howdy boys who'll looking for I can point them out?"


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## ElfLove

Leni said:


> WHAT! What proof would you want? A copy of his DD214? Elf, we have been honest with you. Why are you doubting us? This is insulting. Yes I am pissed off.



I doubt everything I see or read on any forum or any form of media where people are anonymous. If I didn't I would be naive and easily misled. quite frankly the fact that you seem to think I should believe everything you say just because you or the people you know here said it is quite surprising. I have been respectful of the fact that other peoples views are different to my own but as I only know you by the text you have written on a screen is it really that insulting that I take everything you all say with a grain of doubt. I would expect you to be doing the same to me as you don't know me either and all I am to you is text on a screen, I wouldn't expect anyone to change their views because of what they read here. yes I do see the irony of trying to change someones views of how forums should be used while saying they should not change their views because of what they read, but I am simply explaining my view and listening to others. to be aware of other peoples views dose not mean you have to change your own. 

I would also just like to say if you believe I have been insulting or hurtful in any of my comments then please report these comments to the moderators and send me a quote of the comment and I will apologize if I believe that you are right or I can see how what I have said may be hurtful, Insulting or even patronizing. I have the up-most respect for others opinions and the last thing I would want to do is insult someone. but in this case I don't think I am being insulting, I actually think that what I have said about not changing my own view when there is no evidence is common sense


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## ElfLove

Catavenger said:


> So if a bunch of paratroopers from nation X landed and started herding people into death camps you would just say "hey  howdy boys who'll looking for I can point them out?"



this is definately not what I am say what I do think is that if everyone wasn't divided into nations then the people from nation x wouldn't invade anyone because we would all be aiming for the same goal and the worlds interests wouldn't depend on where you are from because everyone is from the same place, earth. I do see the problem with this as it has been discussed before, people are too greedy and would not accept that they would have the exact same amount of wealth as everyone else.


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## Catavenger

> people are too greedy and would not accept that they would have the exact same amount of wealth as everyone else.


 Ah but people ARE too greedy. Humans are greedy and evil. Religions as well as philosophies, economic and political have tried to address this and failed. 
Unless humanity were perfect one man or many joined together would try to force their will and take. They would take goods or humans for slaves they would rape and murder. Would you just stand docily by and let this happen?


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## ElfLove

Catavenger said:


> Ah but people ARE too greedy. Humans are greedy and evil. Religions as well as philosophies, economic and political have tried to address this and failed.
> Unless humanity were perfect one man or many joined together would try to force their will and take. They would take goods or humans for slaves they would rape and murder. Would you just stand docily by and let this happen?



of course not and this is exactly why I accept that I don't have all the answers but surely it is better to try and figure out away to ensure that wouldn't happen rather than accept that we must live our lives in violence. I would rather have false hope and do what I can to make people happier and give what I can, over the option of accepting violence as apart of life


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## Danang Sailor

ElfLove said:


> if you really have lived through wars and served in the armed forces then I would consider and accept what you are saying, but obviously as I have no proof that your view is that of a person who has lived through these things all I will say is, I respect you have your own opinion but I can not change my own without solid evidence and opinions from people I know that have experienced both war and the events that you claim to be worse than war.




You're right; you have no proof that I am what I say I am.  By the same token, we are also giving you the benefit of the
doubt.  We have no way to establish that you really are a naive 19-year old girl from the UK.  You could just as easily be an
Islamic Supremacist from Dearborn, Michigan who is trolling this forum in an attempt to convince us that any war, even
one to prevent your warped pedophile followers from taking over this country, should be avoided.

However, I don't believe that is who or what you are.   I believe you really are a naive teen who has rarely, if ever,
left her own county and certainly not her country.  It would be difficult to believe anyone who had seen any of the rest of the
world could hold all the views you do.  That is not meant as a "knock", just an assessment based on the entirety of your posts.

But, I do have to admit, being called a liar by someone still wet behind the ears is galling.  I lost body parts in service to my
country, and have had others replaced, and your demand for proof that I am what I claim and not a contemptible liar is
beyond rude; it is, at best, boorish.  You're too old to spank and too young to understand the level of your insult so I don't
expect an apology.  But our dealings in the future - if any - are likely to be quite adversarial.


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## Danang Sailor

bczoom said:


> I'll vouch for Danang Sailor as being a veteran and speaks the truth in these matters.
> 
> Elf - There's a lot of Veteran's on this site.





mak2 said:


> I believe anything Danang Sailor says.  Might not agree with it...but accept what he is saying.



Thanks guys - and that comes from the heart.  Your support means more than you can possible know!


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## muleman RIP

Wonder if Elf has ever been to a VA hospital or seen the vets that attend a fellow vets funeral? She seems lacking about 40 years of experience to me.


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## Catavenger

Even though I am not a veteran I would like to thank all who are.  I am also not a draft dodger either. Even with my physical and neurological disorders if the nation ask me serve I would.


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## Leni

Elf, I agree that you have to be careful on the internet but you are not dealing one on one here. You are talking to an entire forum. 

Perhaps you should seek out and talk to a veteran of the Battle of Britain. You should also talk to a survivor of the Holocast. It is the nature of humans to form groups and then one group to try to take over another. Go to the library and take out a few books on psychology.

Frankly I'm wondering if this 'naive teen' is actually doing a term paper on this subject.


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## loboloco

Leni said:


> Elf, I agree that you have to be careful on the internet but you are not dealing one on one here. You are talking to an entire forum.
> 
> Perhaps you should seek out and talk to a veteran of the Battle of Britain. You should also talk to a survivor of the Holocast. It is the nature of humans to form groups and then one group to try to take over another. Go to the library and take out a few books on psychology.
> 
> Frankly I'm wondering if this 'naive teen' is actually doing a term paper on this subject.


Another enlightening conversation she could have would be with the survivors of the Soviet pograms.  Or, she could have a few minutes discussing the peaceful integrations of Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge with Cambodians or Vietnamese.


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## Danang Sailor

muleman said:


> Wonder if Elf has ever been to a VA hospital or seen the vets that attend a fellow vets funeral? She seems lacking about 40 years of experience to me.




If she's really from the UK as she says, there is no chance that she's been to the VA.


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## waybomb

Take a trip to Auschwitz/Birkenau.

You will see why entering a war is the RIGHT thing to do. There was no talking anybody could do, no diplomacy to be let, that could have done anything to stop the evil of the Nazi's.

Visiting that place, in the ice-cold of end-of-December winter, left an indelible impression upon my soul.


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## Catavenger

Maybe the term should not be is war "right? but is it _necessary?  _I would say yes in order  to stop evil.


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## mla2ofus

Maybe she should check out a book about her country's own Lord Chamberlain and how he dealt w/ hitler before Churchill became PM.
                              Mike


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## luvs

there is a movie named, 'the boy in the striped pajamas'. may give a 'lil insight & lend insight to u, elflove, on the sheer irony of how harsh life can be.


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## Catavenger

> Maybe she should check out a book about her country's own Lord Chamberlain and how he dealt w/ hitler before Churchill became PM.


 Have to remember this quote by George Santayana: "Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it,"


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## Kane

*Re: is war right?*

Once upon a time in 1776, a bunch of farmers and squirrel hunters thought so.  And it worked out all right.


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## Leni

Cat I think that you  hit the nail on the head.  It is not a question of is war right.  That comes across as a religious war or something of that ilk.  Necessary is a far better term for what has happened starting with WW II.  Recently the Taliban are waging a war of religious right against us.  Therefore it is necessary for us to defend ourselves and our families.


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## REDDOGTWO

ElfLove said:


> this is definately not what I am say what I do think is that if everyone wasn't divided into nations then the people from nation x wouldn't invade anyone because we would all be aiming for the same goal and the worlds interests wouldn't depend on where you are from because everyone is from the same place, earth. I do see the problem with this as it has been discussed before, people are too greedy and would not accept that they would have the exact same amount of wealth as everyone else.



Why would I be satisfied is the person next to be had the same wealth that I have when he had been a lazy welfare person all of his life and I have worked my ass off for more than forty years. I even has a more pragmatic view of life when I started working at fourteen in addition to still working on the farm where I grew up. That is the problem now, everyone wants something for nothing.


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## REDDOGTWO

ElfLove said:


> this is definately not what I am say what I do think is that if everyone wasn't divided into nations then the people from nation x wouldn't invade anyone because we would all be aiming for the same goal and the worlds interests wouldn't depend on where you are from because everyone is from the same place, earth. I do see the problem with this as it has been discussed before, people are too greedy and would not accept that they would have the exact same amount of wealth as everyone else.



Why would I be satisfied as the person next to be had the same wealth that I have when he had been a lazy welfare person all of his life and I have worked my ass off for more than forty years. I even has a more pragmatic view of life when I started working at fourteen in addition to still working on the farm where I grew up. That is the problem now, everyone wants something for nothing.


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## luvs

how so- i just dropped an absurd amount on schooling. my decision/future. the generalization u've made is bull. most have pride. they get jobs & pursue careers, rather than sponge. tho, ppl get ill, get injuries, get too elderly, were not taught to obtain careers, etc.


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## ElfLove

Danang Sailor said:


> You're right; you have no proof that I am what I say I am.  By the same token, we are also giving you the benefit of the
> doubt.  We have no way to establish that you really are a naive 19-year old girl from the UK.  You could just as easily be an
> Islamic Supremacist from Dearborn, Michigan who is trolling this forum in an attempt to convince us that any war, even
> one to prevent your warped pedophile followers from taking over this country, should be avoided.
> 
> However, I don't believe that is who or what you are.   I believe you really are a naive teen who has rarely, if ever,
> left her own county and certainly not her country.  It would be difficult to believe anyone who had seen any of the rest of the
> world could hold all the views you do.  That is not meant as a "knock", just an assessment based on the entirety of your posts.
> 
> But, I do have to admit, being called a liar by someone still wet behind the ears is galling.  I lost body parts in service to my
> country, and have had others replaced, and your demand for proof that I am what I claim and not a contemptible liar is
> beyond rude; it is, at best, boorish.  You're too old to spank and too young to understand the level of your insult so I don't
> expect an apology.  But our dealings in the future - if any - are likely to be quite adversarial.



I for some weird reason feel you are trying to start an argument here and I will not give you the satisfaction. I will however say this, I tried to have a reasonable debate in which I stated my own views and wished to listen to others. I have listened and said why I personally don't agree. 

to the comments about you saying you have no idea who I am and that in your word I could "just as easily be an
Islamic Supremacist from Dearborn, Michigan who is trolling this forum in an attempt to convince us that any war, even
one to prevent your warped pedophile followers from taking over this country, should be avoided." is exactly the point I was trying to make. just to point out I'm not that at all. 

to the comments that age somehow has something to do with intellect and experience is again another thing I wish to disagree with you on. you haven't even asked why I have these opinions or what experience I have to have been able to form these views. 

I am not going to argue with you but I do think that your claims of me being "naive" are false and anyone who is willing to risk their own life to progress the interest of corrupt polotitions in wars that are not justified should not be calling anyone naive. I will let you read in to that what you will but I have made my views clear.


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## waybomb

Ah, the naivete of an liberal thinking youngster.

Feels good, eh? No more wars; all we have to do is sit down and talk it out.

Tell me how you would have avoided WWII? Would have appeased Hitler until he was at your doorstep? oh. hmmm. Well, then what? Let him rape and pillage your country? Or you think he would have simply taken over? Would you be ok with that? 

Sorry lady, talk will not stop an aggressor wanting more. 

Let's say Danang was trying to start a fight with you. And he had a big gun and bullets for the gun. watchagonnado?


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## REDDOGTWO

She would try and stop the bullets as they were being fired with words of youthful idealism.  Those that do not learn history will repeat it. Something like that anyways. Guess I was to busy learning how to make a living rather that learn all the intellectual bullshit.


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## Danang Sailor

ElfLove said:


> I for some weird reason feel you are trying to start an argument here and I will not give you the satisfaction. I will however say this, I tried to have a reasonable debate in which I stated my own views and wished to listen to others. I have listened and said why I personally don't agree.
> ...
> to the comments that age somehow has something to do with intellect and experience is again another thing I wish to disagree with you on. you haven't even asked why I have these opinions or what experience I have to have been able to form these views.
> 
> I am not going to argue with you but I do think that your claims of me being "naive" are false and anyone who is willing to risk their own life to progress the interest of corrupt polotitions in wars that are not justified should not be calling anyone naive. I will let you read in to that what you will but I have made my views clear.



I'm not trying to start a fight with you; it would be pointless.  And I never said nor implied that age had anything to do with
intellect, or the lack thereof.  However, since you have broached the subject I will say that, in my experience, age does
not necessarily lead to wisdom; however, unless one is truly brain-dead it does tend to broaden the database with which
you may work.  If you are truly a 19 year old female in the UK, I can honestly say that I see very few ways you could have
accumulated the experience to debate my 65 years of experience in many corners of the world.  Nonetheless, you
have made a valid point in that I do *not* know what experience you may have had that lead you to your beliefs, and I herewith
offer you the opportunity to share those experiences, as I have done.

Until you *do* post your experiences I cannot give any credence to your comments on "corrupt politicians" and "unjust wars".
You simply do not seem to have enough data in your database on which to make such judgements.

I will end with a truth and question.
Truth:  Your country is bowing down to Islamic Supremacists daily, and you are losing more and more of your traditional
values and way of life.  At last count there were more than 85 Sharia courts in England, Islamic Supremacists march in your
streets and proudly proclaim that they won't follow any law not Sharia and those that make them can go to Hell, and there
are Islamic neighborhoods where your police are not allowed to go.
Question:  When the Supremacists begin their final takeover, will you fight (and I do mean *fight*) to preserve your own
country,  or will you convert to Islam, wear the _burka_, and become the slave of any and every male around you?

Your answer will tell *all of us*, yourself included, what you really, truly believe ... down in your gut, where it really matters.


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## Kane

Gosh, I wasn't aware that Miss Elflove was from the UK.  And you are right, Danang Sailor, about the danger of a European caliphate.  It is something she should fear and be willing to resist.  Oh well.

But with regard to war and "is it right", how can we(she) fail to consider the American Revolution of 1776.  Does she feel this war was wrong?  Apparently so, as written in British history.  But a bunch of farmers and squirrel hunters in the young colonies felt differently  -  down in their gut.

I wish her well with a one-size-fits-all burka.  They come in a deliteful array of grays, dark blue and a tasteful black. 
.


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## Danang Sailor

Kane said:


> Gosh, I wasn't aware that Miss Elflove was from the UK.  And you are right, Danang Sailor, about the danger of a European caliphate.  It is something she should fear and be willing to resist.  Oh well.
> 
> But with regard to war and "is it right", how can we(she) fail to consider the American Revolution of 1776.  Does she feel this war was wrong?  Apparently so, as written in British history.  But a bunch of farmers and squirrel hunters in the young colonies felt differently  -  down in their gut.
> 
> *I wish her well with a one-size-fits-all burka.  They come in a deliteful array of grays, dark blue and a tasteful black. *
> .



Fashion is coming to Islam.  Burkas can now be had in a beautiful cornflower blue!


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## mla2ofus

Danang Sailor said:


> I'm not trying to start a fight with you; it would be pointless.  And I never said nor implied that age had anything to do with
> intellect, or the lack thereof.  However, since you have broached the subject I will say that, in my experience, age does
> not necessarily lead to wisdom; however, unless one is truly brain-dead it does tend to broaden the database with which
> you may work.  If you are truly a 19 year old female in the UK, I can honestly say that I see very few ways you could have
> accumulated the experience to debate my 65 years of experience in many corners of the world.  Nonetheless, you
> have made a valid point in that I do *not* know what experience you may have had that lead you to your beliefs, and I herewith
> offer you the opportunity to share those experiences, as I have done.
> 
> Until you *do* post your experiences I cannot give any credence to your comments on "corrupt politicians" and "unjust wars".
> You simply do not seem to have enough data in your database on which to make such judgements.
> 
> I will end with a truth and question.
> Truth:  Your country is bowing down to Islamic Supremacists daily, and you are losing more and more of your traditional
> values and way of life.  At last count there were more than 85 Sharia courts in England, Islamic Supremacists march in your
> streets and proudly proclaim that they won't follow any law not Sharia and those that make them can go to Hell, and there
> are Islamic neighborhoods where your police are not allowed to go.
> Question:  When the Supremacists begin their final takeover, will you fight (and I do mean *fight*) to preserve your own
> country,  or will you convert to Islam, wear the _burka_, and become the slave of any and every male around you?
> 
> Your answer will tell *all of us*, yourself included, what you really, truly believe ... down in your gut, where it really matters.



  Well elflove, Id say at this point it's time to put up or shut up.
                                       Mike


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## loboloco

Elflove,
Neither youth or age have a monopoly on intelligence.  Unfortunately, by the very nature of the beast, age has an advantage in experience.
there is a saying that is somewhat apropos here "Old age and treachery beat youth and skill every time except the last one.
People are old because they have managed to survive in a world that quite often is doing its best to kill them.  This doesn't make them wise, nor does it make them smart.  It does give them experience, especially of the evils that the world contains.
It is my sincere hope that you never experience the things that Danang, Mak2, or myself did.  I wish with all of my heart that the world could be as you want it.  I know very well it will never be so as long as humanity inhabits it.


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## EastTexFrank

loboloco said:


> Elflove,
> I wish with all of my heart that the world could be as you want it.  I know very well it will never be so as long as humanity inhabits it.



True.

I remember when I was her age in the UK I had similar feelings about war.

1   Let the old fart politicians who started it go fight it and leave us young folks at home ... alive.

2  If the young soldiers on both sides refused to fight there couldn't be a war in the first place.  Simple and logical.

Alas, I lived long enough to grow older, wiser, more experienced in the ways of man and I must admit a lot more cynical.  

In the immortal words of John Wayne, "Some men just need killin'".  Unfortunately, that's a fact.  There's no way round it.


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## RedRocker

ElfLove said:


> if you believe war is acceptable if in the name of a good cause dose that mean I can kill you in the name of peace?



You're talking war and murder, two different things. War is normal, never in the history of mankind has there not been war. The only way to avoid it is to be the meanest sumbitch on the block. The USA used to own that title, but decades ago we stopped protecting ourselves and let political correctness take over. The Marine barracks in Beirut, Kobar towers, first World Trade Center bombing and many many more attacks on America and Americans went unanswered  leading our enemies to believe America was a paper tiger.
 All that led up to 9-11, finally evoking a military response, then of course we elected the biggest America hating communist that went on a world wide apology tour putting us right back in a position of weakness in the eyes of our enemies and the circle will continue, ambassador Stevens comes to mind. War may not be acceptable but its inevitable.


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## Danang Sailor

Elf, I'm waiting for your response to my questions.  Are you still here?


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## Freek

No, of course i never think and believe that war is right in tne name of peace. Infect dialogue or conversation is the best solution to the social, economic and political matters. War is only acceptable if someone is really teasing or attacking you witout any problem from your side.


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## Kane

RedRocker said:


> You're talking war and murder, two different things. War is normal, never in the history of mankind has there not been war. The only way to avoid it is to be the meanest sumbitch on the block. The USA used to own that title, but decades ago we stopped protecting ourselves and let political correctness take over. The Marine barracks in Beirut, Kobar towers, first World Trade Center bombing and many many more attacks on America and Americans went unanswered leading our enemies to believe America was a paper tiger.
> All that led up to 9-11, finally evoking a military response, then of course we elected the biggest America hating communist that went on a world wide apology tour putting us right back in a position of weakness in the eyes of our enemies and the circle will continue, ambassador Stevens comes to mind. War may not be acceptable but its inevitable.


The next six months of the Hussien administration will be very telling. We will see if Israel is left to swing in the wind in favor of the Arab Spring, as he seems content to allow Iran to arm Hamas thru Sudan. And he seems destined to allow Ahmadenijad to have his bomb, which might literally change the landscape in the Middle East.

But rest assured. Short-timer Hillary Clinton is on her way to play Henry Kissenger in-a-pant-suit until February. And when that doesn't work, Hussien will send Susan Rice to make the peace. And of course, we can always count on John 'swift boat' Kerry to mop up the mess left behind by Dave Betraus. Seems that all of our generals have plenty of time to have sex (whether in the flesh, on the phone or thru email) so the war in Afganistan must be under control.

I feel better. Don't you?


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