# I'm In Deep Doo-doo



## EastTexFrank

OK, now I'm in trouble and need advice.

Last Sunday since it was a nice day, I went to a Boat, RV and camping show.  I brought along my wife and S-I-L.  We all had a great time and the girls were enthusiastic about the RV's and were really pumped about this being something that we might and should do.  I didn't think too much about it and wrote it off to girlish enthusiasm and wishful thinking. 

Today they had an appointment with a lawyer on family business so I was at home piddling around outside when my cell phone rings.  "We've found a 5th wheel we like, we want you to come and see it".  To cut a long story short, it seems that I am now the proud owner of a 40 foot 5th wheel.  Don't get me wrong, the thing is beautiful and the floorplan will work for the 3 of us but the problem is .... *what the hell do I use to tow a 40 foot 5th wheel weighing 10K pounds empty with a gross weight of 14K pounds.* 

Sitting outside the house is a F350 diesel, crew cab, 4x4, long bed dually.  It's 10 years old but only has 67K miles on it and still in great shape.  I reckon it would tug this thing around with ease.  

Now here is where it gets interesting.  My 93-year old M-I-L has been wanting a new truck for the farm and she decided that if she buys a 3/4 ton, gas, crew cab truck and puts the hitch on that, then maybe we'll bring her along on our trips, which we would have done any way.  I don't know much about these things so *what would make the better towing vehicle?*   I'm open to all kinds of suggestions and any kind of advice for a total novice.  

1 ton diesel vs 3/4 ton gasser, that is the question and are any things that I should be aware of before going to buy this new truck to make sure it'll do what we want it to do.

Help please.


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## muleman RIP

I would stay with the diesel. Better load pulling in the long term. Can't beat a dually for handling a heavy trailer.


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## AAUTOFAB1

Wow thats a big 5th wheel, i vote for a diesel, the bigger the better, especially in the crosswind and braking. Sure you can pull it with a 3/4 ton but i think with a 5th that better control is more important.(stuff to think about)have fun.


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## Adillo303

My 5er is about 35 feet. My dodge 3500 dully diesel does just fine. Stick with the diesel.  65K on that truck isn't even broken in.


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## jwstewar

I would bet with that size trailer, you would be over loading a 3/4 ton with the pin weight that bad boy is going to be carrying. Of course, this coming from the guy that pulls a 36' bumper pull w/ 2 slides with a 1/2 ton Silverado.


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## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Diesel hands down.  Better mileage too.


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## rback33

Diesel. No question.

And congrats btw!


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## RedRocker

What rback said, I'm amazed to see how many SRW trucks there are pulling big ass fivers.


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## JackieBlue

Got any pics of your new purchase?


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## loboloco

EastTex, explain to one and all that neither the one ton or the three quarter will safely and securely do the job.  Then go out and pick you up a single screw Mack or Mercedes so that everybody will be safe when you move that thing down the road.


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## EastTexFrank

JackieBlue said:


> Got any pics of your new purchase?



Not yet.  Pick it up next Friday.  If you're interested in a look see, check out Open Range RV's, Open Range Model 399BHS.  

http://www.openrangerv.com/open-range/construction.aspx


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## EastTexFrank

loboloco said:


> EastTex, explain to one and all that neither the one ton or the three quarter will safely and securely do the job.  Then go out and pick you up a single screw Mack or Mercedes so that everybody will be safe when you move that thing down the road.



I wish that I could explain but I'm not knowledgeable enough.  You obviously do so please, smarten me up.  I don't know much about these things.  That's why I'm asking for help and advice.


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## rback33

EastTexFrank said:


> I wish that I could explain but I'm not knowledgeable enough.  You obviously do so please, smarten me up.  I don't know much about these things.  That's why I'm asking for help and advice.



Frank.... lobo is being sarcastic about needing the bigger pick up and is giving you an excuse to do the manly thing and go BIGGER for over kill.

For the sake of towing, your one ton will pull it much better than the gasser 3/4 ton. You will want the wider base if it's a dually and the heavier springs will help a lot. Diesels are meant to pull and you will see better mileage than the gasser.  Truth be told, to get a gasser rated to tow that much, you will need a v10 or 8 liter gm... You have what you need and it's not even broke in. Put'er to work.


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## jwstewar

The 1990 Dry hitch weight seems awful light. On a bumper pull you typically want 10 - 15% on the hitch. In the case of this one, it puts you at 1400 - 2100. I thought fivers typically ran closer to 20%. If that is the case, it should be closer to 2800 lbs - dry. Wait until you are carrying 249 gallons of water in it. Plus all of your clothes and food.

My cousin has a Montana with almost that exact same layout except he doesn't have the extra half bath. We lived in it for about a month when our house burnt. It is a very nice camper, nice layout. He pulls it with his 2002 F350 CCLB 4x4. His is probably an 05 or 06 model. He has dropped his transmission 3 times towing it. He has had to have his F-I-L or his B-I-L come pick the camper up with their 3/4 ton Chevy's both with the 6.0 gas to get it home. I won't (and I'm a Chevy guy) and he won't say the Chevy's pulled it near as well up his driveway, but they kept their transmission in the truck 

I think no matter what brand you buy, it is way too much camper for any 3/4 ton - gas OR DIESEL.


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## rback33

jwstewar said:


> I think no matter what brand you buy, it is way too much camper for any 3/4 ton - gas OR DIESEL.



That was the point I was getting at but really failed to make. My guess is that it's actually pushing mfg specs on the tonner if it's not a dually.


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## tommu56

With the weather we all are having having the enclosed tanks and lines are a good option



tom


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## EastTexFrank

Thanks guys.  As you can tell I'm a little worried about this.  My wife and I have talked about doing it over the years but something else always came up.  That's the reason I initially bought the F350 dually all those years ago but I always reckoned on getting something in the 30' range, not something quite this big.  It'll be a challenge.  

We've already picked out a couple of spots within an hours drive so we can go practice for a couple of days at a time.  Hopefully, by the time summer comes round we'll be a lot more comfortable and knowledgeable and increase our driving range.  Then again, it may be back on the market come summer.


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## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Two bathrooms in an RV?


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## RNE228

That is HUGE. My concern would be where do you want to take it? Most RV parks can hold something that big. Although I have been to a couple where it would be a pain to back in. 

Not all state and federal campgrounds will take something that big though. Some restrict slides, and some restrict length. 

I would consider some of the places you might want to go, and see how big of rigs they allow; ie Yellowstone, Bryce Canyon, Yosemite, and then some state parks. 

I think the place in Pt Aranasas we stayed could handle that...


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## loboloco

Frank, I was giving you the excuse to go get another man toy, but, seriously, you want to haul a 7 ton trailer with a rated 1 ton truck?
Check the mfg specs on your one ton and determine the *axle weight* you can handle.  Then add the tongue weight to 1/2 your vehicle weight.  this will get you close to the axle weight you will have.  The dealer should be able to provide the tongue weight.  remember, as you add weight in supplies, you will also add tongue weight in proportion to how it is stored in the trailer.  Forward of the COB, most goes to the tongue, back of the COB, most goes to the trailer axle.  
For your own safety, and the safety of others, make sure whatever vehicle you use is rated to tow the trailer.
I am thinking you might want to look at a higher grade truck.
Also, make very sure the tires you use are rated for haulage.  Many light truck tires are not actually designed to stand up under heavy haulage.  And I promise you, you do not want blowouts with a light truck hauling a heavy load.

I will look a little bit deeper and try to give you a better idea on tonnage.  Sorry for the original reply, even though it would have given you a new toy and would have easily handled the trailer.


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## EastTexFrank

RNE228 said:


> That is HUGE. My concern would be where do you want to take it? Most RV parks can hold something that big. Although I have been to a couple where it would be a pain to back in.
> 
> Not all state and federal campgrounds will take something that big though. Some restrict slides, and some restrict length.
> 
> I would consider some of the places you might want to go, and see how big of rigs they allow; ie Yellowstone, Bryce Canyon, Yosemite, and then some state parks.
> 
> I think the place in Pt Aranasas we stayed could handle that...



It's not huge, there are some even bigger but it's at the top end of my comfort zone, that's for sure.  I was really looking at something around 32 or 33 feet but the floorplan is ideal for our use.  

It's a bath and a half.  I'm too old and grumpy to be sharing a john with more than one woman.  

I've been checking around today and most RV parks have pads that will accommodate it but, you're right, backing it in to some of those pads could be a nightmare.  Quite a few places have at least a couple of drive through pads which is what I think that I'd be looking at, at least at first.  

I just talked to my S-I-L and she had just finished talking to her son.  He's a Mercedes trained diesel mechanic and all he works on now are light, medium and heavy trucks.  He's convinced her to go with the diesel although neither of us can get her off the 3/4 ton, single rear axle but we're working on it.  Did I mention that she is a little bit stubborn but she'll give a little bit at a time.  His recommendation is a Chevy/GMC.  He says that it is a Subaru developed engine that he seldom sees in the shop.  He also said that the Cummins really hasn't changed all that much since it was used in automobiles way back when.  Something else, he said that in order to pull the engine out of the newer Ford diesels, you have to lift the whole cab off the frame first.  That's 5 hours labor before you even touch the engine.  Seems crazy to me.


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## loboloco

Frank, somewhere on your truck wil be a data plate giving a GCWR.  This is Gross Combined Weight Rating.  What you want is to have a GCWR  that meets or exceeds your loaded trailer's weight and the loaded truck weight including the people in the truck.   I honestly believe you might want to look at a slightly heftier duty truck than the 350.  Sorry, but I would only use the gasser for moving it around the yard.


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## loboloco

Frank, definitely go with a dualie.  If you lose one tire on a dualie, you have another to let you limp to the side of the road.  On a single, you are gonna wind up screwing up the rim, and possibly the axle.
A single screw (or single rear axle) if it is rated high enough is ok.  But every one of those are going to be dual wheel.


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## RedRocker

If I was pulling a big trailer I'd go with a FL60 Freightliner or a 
http://sportchassis.com/ 
You can never have too much truck.


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## Doc

Sure bigger is better, but I think you'll be fine with your F350 4x4 dually.  You might have the brakes upgraded but otherwise I figure you are good to go as it sits.  Now, if your MIL really would feel better if she bought a new truck to help you out with the towing go with Reds suggestion.


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## loboloco

One other suggestion, Frank.  If you decide to go with the 350, get the transmission cooler upgraded.


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## jwstewar

> He says that it is a Subaru developed engine that he seldom sees in the shop.


 
The Duramax wasn't developed by Subaru. It was developed by Isuzu and GM jointly. Now since GM sold their ownership of Isuzu they bought the rights to the Duramax, it is owned soley by GM. You sure he is a diesel mechanic?


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## NorthernRedneck

I vote for the 1 tonne dually with a deisel.  Dad's got a 3/4 chevy deisel single axle and it was just enough to pull his 30ft Golden falcon with a 14ft slide.  Anything bigger, and he figured he'd need a dually at least.  This is coming from a guy who was a bush truck driver for 40 yrs.  It's better to have too much truck for the job than not enough truck and wind up in a mess along the innerstate somewhere in the middle of nowhere.


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## EastTexFrank

RedRocker said:


> If I was pulling a big trailer I'd go with a FL60 Freightliner or a
> http://sportchassis.com/
> You can never have too much truck.



Or too much money.    I'm familiar with Sportschassis and they run $120,000 on up.  We have a dealer on I-20, just west of Canton.  Beautiful machines but that's way overkill for pulling a 14K pound trailer ... but if I ever win the lottery ......


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## EastTexFrank

jwstewar said:


> The Duramax wasn't developed by Subaru. It was developed by Isuzu and GM jointly. Now since GM sold their ownership of Isuzu they bought the rights to the Duramax, it is owned soley by GM. You sure he is a diesel mechanic?



I stand corrected.  He was right.  I got it wrong.  Subaru ... Izuzu ... this country boy classifies them all as "firrin".


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## EastTexFrank

loboloco said:


> Frank, somewhere on your truck wil be a data plate giving a GCWR.  This is Gross Combined Weight Rating.  What you want is to have a GCWR  that meets or exceeds your loaded trailer's weight and the loaded truck weight including the people in the truck.   I honestly believe you might want to look at a slightly heftier duty truck than the 350.  Sorry, but I would only use the gasser for moving it around the yard.



I agree with you about the gasser. 

Yea, I had all the manuals out today, it was too cold to do anything else, and I found it a little bit confusing trying to work out what you could actually pull on a gooseneck.  I reckon if it is rated to pull 10K on the rear, it should surely be rated to pull 14K on a 5th wheel hitch.  Just my opinion.  But, having said that, if you follow all the instructions for calculating allowable towing weight, you're right, it's pretty darned close for my dually 4x4.  

We're going to make a few short trips when we get it home just to check it out.  The destinations are all within about 10 miles of the house or the farm.  We'll see how that goes.  Good Lord, I hope I don't have to drop another $70K on an upgraded tow vehicle.  I may have to sell the house and live in the freekin' thing.


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## RNE228

Yes, a friend of mine had a 43' toy hauler, three axle jobber. It was sweet. But he was limited on parking. 

FWIW, he towed his with a 3500 Dodge Megacab dually, '07 I think. 



EastTexFrank said:


> It's not huge, there are some even bigger but it's at the top end of my comfort zone, that's for sure.  I was really looking at something around 32 or 33 feet but the floorplan is ideal for our use.
> 
> It's a bath and a half.  I'm too old and grumpy to be sharing a john with more than one woman.
> 
> I've been checking around today and most RV parks have pads that will accommodate it but, you're right, backing it in to some of those pads could be a nightmare.  Quite a few places have at least a couple of drive through pads which is what I think that I'd be looking at, at least at first.


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## rback33

I am thinking medium duty truck is your best bet... 450/4500 or bigger...  you won't be out as much as you think...

http://www.truckpaper.com/list/list.aspx?pg=2&ETID=1&catid=809&bcatid=27&Pref=0&Thumbs=1&scf=false


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## EastTexFrank

rback33 said:


> I am thinking medium duty truck is your best bet... 450/4500 or bigger...  you won't be out as much as you think...
> 
> http://www.truckpaper.com/list/list.aspx?pg=2&ETID=1&catid=809&bcatid=27&Pref=0&Thumbs=1&scf=false



Man, that was interesting.  

I'd looked at the Ford web page and had seen that the F450 had a stickered starting price of something like $61,000.  That didn't impress me too much.  

I'll have to keep that in mind.  Thanks.


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## RNE228

Only bummer about a bigger truck(like the 450/4500 series) is parking ect. When we take the 5th wheel out, we wind up doing sight seeing, shopping ect. It is nice to be able to find parking.


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## loboloco

Frank, glad I could point you in the right direction.  Another option, rather than purchase a new truck is upgrade the rear axle and suspension, thus increasing the tow weight.  Of course, you have to register and tag the upgrade to be legal, but not sure how 'stiff' they are around there about that.


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## EastTexFrank

loboloco said:


> Of course, you have to register and tag the upgrade to be legal, but not sure how 'stiff' they are around there about that.



Basically, this is East Texas.  It's legal as long as you don't get caught.


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## RedRocker

I'm trying to figure out how they'd know.


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## EastTexFrank

I towed it with the F350.  It did pretty good.  

We went on a one week shakedown trip to the Mineola Civic Center which is about 6 miles from the house.  We made up a list of things that needed attending to and drove it back to the dealer to have them fixed under warranty.  There wasn't too much, mainly little stuff.  

I was actually surprised how well the 5th wheel towed.  It was a lot better and easier than towing a tractor on the receiver hitch.  

I'm looking into adding a chip to the ol' truck to get some more torque and fuel economy.  I found a company not too far away, Texas Performance Diesel, that installs them.  I was looking at, "The Edge with Attitude".  

Anybody know if it's a worthwhile addition?  I'd like to get you guys input before I plonk down my money.


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## VXclimber180

I have the perfect truck for you....OK I am sure you have heard that before. But really I have a 08 Dodge 5500 quad cab with 26,000 miles that I am forced to sell. I have been pulling a 44' horse trailer with it. I used to pull the trailer with a 3500 with a short bed. I have to say the difference in the 3500 and the 5500 is big. Lots bigger brakes, much more heavy duty axle. Mine has a 11'4" flat bed and still turns shorter than my short bed 3500, they have a different frt end that lets if turn sharper. The long wheel base rides much better. Asking $38,500. Also has the built in navigation with 6 disk changer. PM if you have any questions or want any more photos.


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## EastTexFrank

EastTexFrank said:


> I'm looking into adding a chip to the ol' truck to get some more torque and fuel economy.  I found a company not too far away, Texas Performance Diesel, that installs them.  I was looking at, "The Edge with Attitude".
> 
> Anybody know if it's a worthwhile addition?  I'd like to get you guys input before I plonk down my money.



Well, nobody gave me their opinion so I went and did it anyway.  I took the truck to Texas Performance Diesel and talked to the owner.  We talked about what I wanted to use the truck for, what I expected to get out of a chip and other general stuff.  He recommended a 6-position programmer from T-S Performance.  He said that in his experience that is what worked best on my truck and for what I wanted to do so that's what I went with.  

It actually took longer to download the program over the internet from T-S performance to the module than it did to install it.  The six positions are: 
stock, 50 hp, 75 hp, 100 hp, 135 hp and high idle.  Counter intuitively, at least to me, the 50 hp setting is for heavy towing, the 75 hp is for light towing, the 100 hp is the economy setting and the 135 hp is for racing and not to be used under normal circumstance or unless escaping from the police.  

Now, let me tell you what a difference that baby makes.  On limited experience of a couple of tankfuls of mixed running around and towing it looks as if it'll give me an extra 2 mpg or so, maybe a little higher but I look on that as a bonus.  Where the difference is most noticeable is towing that 38 foot fiver on the 50 hp setting.  I don't know how much extra torque you get at that setting but I never thought that 50 extra horses would make that much of a difference.  I know that it's a cliche but you can almost forget that the trailer is back there.  It pulls it up these East Texas rolling hills and inclines and the speed never wavers from what it's set at.  I feel a lot more comfortable about pulling it up those Colorado mountains this summer.  We can do it.!!!!!  

Oh, I'd better mention how pleased I am with how well that 5th wheel tows.  I brought her back from camping at Lake of the Pines, in NE Texas about a week ago.  The wind was blowing 20 to 25 mph and gusting to 40+ mph.  Even though it was only about a 60 mile drive home, I wasn't looking forward to it all that much.  It wasn't a problem.  Even though we got hit with some really strong cross winds, that thing was remarkably stable when hitched to the dually.  I'm getting more and more comfortable with this combo every time I drive it.  

Starting to love this rving thing.


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