# Going off the utility grid?



## Melensdad

I would really like to go "off grid."  

Not for any logical reason, my home already has natural gas and electric service from the local utility.  Gas service has NEVER been interrupted.  We have regular electric service interruption so I have a natural gas generator installed for power back up.

But I'd like to complicate my life and spend money unnecessarily to go off grid, especially with electricity.  

So here is my thought.  A MULTI-PHASE approach with the transition done in stages.  
PHASE 1:
Install some solar PV panels, a battery bank, and an inverter.  Set the system up as a "net metering" system so that any 'excess' power is sold to the utility.  The solar PV panels change the batteries, the house draws power from the batteries, if the batteries get to low, the utility company is used to recharge the batteries.  If the batteries are charged and there is surplus power then the excess power is sold to the utility.  

In a power failure situation the solar PV panels would charge the battery bank, the house would draw power from the batteries, if the batteries get too low then the Natural Gas generator would re-charge the battery bank.

Install a solar water heater array to heat the household water.  Excess heat could also be used to heat part of the house. ​PHASE 2:
PART A)  Based on the *actual* performance of the above system during the first year of the system, expand the solar PV panels or add a wind generator to supplement it as needed.

PART B)  Install a "wood gasification" system to power the natural gas generator.  These systems use burning wood to create a burnable gas and would remove the need have the natural gas line in place to power the generator.  One example of a wood gas system => http://victorygasifier.com/​The problem I still would have is that the house uses Gas Forced Air for heating.  So I would still rely on natural gas for most of the home heating needs, but it would be dramatically reduced if I can heat part of the home, and the water heater, with a solar collector.  

Thoughts?


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## loboloco

Phase 3:  Build a methane generator, convert your LNG heating system to burn methane.
Tank the excess during the summer months and burn it through the winter.


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## Dargo

My step father tried just that and was fleeced out of tens of thousands of dollars just to discover that we don't have the technology to have any solar panels, batteries and windmills that are efficient enough to even run a single household.  He had to fight a zoning board for his windmill too.

In the end, he ended up with huge panels covering the entire south side of his home that needed to be taken down (resale value was a net zero - best offer was to take them down free if they could keep the panels).  It cost us to get rid of his windmill.  Nobody would even take free unless we took it down and delivered it to them (no thanks).  It was a HUGE loss getting rid of the large bank of 6v lead acid batteries that were suppose to hold the power that was supposed to be generated.  At best, he ended up being able to take a luke warm shower at the end of a sunny day and could run the lights in his bedroom over night with the power generated during the day.

This was about 15 years ago.  To my knowledge, there hasn't been any absolutely HUGE increase in technology.  Heck, GM has played with tens of billions of our dollars and they can't get a small car, their "Volt" to run more than about 25 miles after charging on 220 all night.  Battery replacement on them is expected in around 8 years at the approx cost of $10k.  Many tow companies have orders to not touch a Volt that has been in an accident to boot.  I don't have billions to spend on battery technology and better power generating equipment (Volts and other similar vehicles actually use the braking system to generate power when braking, but so far I don't think the amount generated over the expected life of the car would buy the equipment generating said power.

I always considered my father in law a very, very frugal man who was not stupid.  Clearly someone sold him on being able to go off the grid, but it was a complete disaster.  I would want to see, in person, a few places that are successfully doing this before I'd consider it; especially since I've witnessed such a tremendous loss of time and money attempting to do so.


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## Doc

I saw a report on 60 minutes over a year ago where google and some other companies in CA were using what they called a Bloom Box for power.  It appear to be totally off the grid as it was not wired into the electric companies, it was a stand alone energy source.  Sure sounded interesting.  I have no idea how far they've come with this technology .. but it sure would be worth a look.

Alternative Energy: The Bloom Box - 60 Minutes - CBS News

Aug 29, 2010 · 60 Minutes on CBS News: Alternative Energy: The Bloom Box - Large corporations in California have been testing a new device that can generate power on the ...
www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6816773n

another link : what 60 minutes did not tell you about the "Bloom Box".

http://www.csmonitor.com/Innovation/Horizons/2010/0222/Bloom-Box-What-60-Minutes-left-out


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## Alaska Snow Cat

Your plan looks pretty good. There have been huge advances in battery/inverter technology in the past 10 years. Really do your home work before you buy. You definitely get what you pay for in off grid gear.

Expect it to supplement your current power as opposed to replacing it, or greatly reducing your household power needs. See if your utility company has off peak rates and use that time frame to recharge your batteries if you need too.

The best reason, but not the only one, for going this route is standby power incase of an outage. I personally would consider a diesel generator with a 300-500 gal tank to be prepared in case of your natural gas service being interrupted.

My wife brings home a magazine from the library from time to time called "Home Power" that is chuck full of information. I've lived using gen/bat/inverter for 16 years now and it is a daily grind. I have never invested in solar but if I had it would have paid for itself about 5 years ago. Of course they have really improved the efficiency in the past 5 years so it would have been time to replace then.

Unless you live in an area that get steady wind I would pass on the wind generator. I don't know of too many folks that would buy them again if they had a chance to do it all over.


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## Melensdad

Doc, I've actually talked to those people.  I don't know if I can run one of those off of wood gas.  It would still require me to be connected to NG.





loboloco said:


> Phase 3:  Build a methane generator, convert your LNG heating system to burn methane.
> Tank the excess during the summer months and burn it through the winter.


That is NOT legal.  The wood gas unit will technically run the NG heating system too.  But its illegal to burn any gas inside your home that is not treated with a perfume agent in case of a leak.  





Dargo said:


> My step father tried just that and was fleeced out of tens of thousands of dollars just to discover that we don't have the technology to have any solar panels, batteries and windmills that are efficient enough to even run a single household........


Brent, I have been exploring this for the past decade and it is STILL NOT ECONOMICALLY VIABLE but it is technically feasible.  Batteries have gotten better, PV technology has gotten better.  If you have the money and the desire you can build it.  Since I have the utility grid this is not a money saving project.






Alaska Snow Cat said:


> Unless you live in an area that get steady wind I would pass on the wind generator. I don't know of too many folks that would buy them again if they had a chance to do it all over.


I live due north of one of the largest wind farms in the nation, on top of a ridge line.  I simply don't trust wind generators to perform well.  Most seem like they are selling hype.  Still, I think I live in an area where I could use it if I put up a tall enough tower.


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## squerly

Melensdad said:


> Install some solar PV panels, a battery bank, and an inverter. Set the system up as a "net metering" system so that any 'excess' power is sold to the utility. The solar PV panels change the batteries, the house draws power from the batteries, if the batteries get to low, the utility company is used to recharge the batteries. If the batteries are charged and there is surplus power then the excess power is sold to the utility.


 
I may be wrong (certainly won't be the first time) but I don't think you can use the same "net metering" system to power your house with if the grid goes down.


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## Melensdad

squerly said:


> I may be wrong (certainly won't be the first time) but I don't think you can use the same "net metering" system to power your house with if the grid goes down.


You are correct.  The system has to have a utility cut off for times when the grid is down.


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## FrancSevin

My Ranch/farm is totaly off the grid.

Solar panels, wood heat, Wind power, Backupt diesel genertor.

In three years, here are my issues.
IT IS A FRACKING LOT OF WORK!

Initial costs are high and trust me,there is not payback benefit.

There are maintanance issues and the technologies are marginal.

If your deep well, or any of your eqipment is is three phase, then it gets even worse.

Theonly advantage at the current time is that you are not at the mercy of the utility power companies.  And that there are very few EPA regulations, so far, on home fired, selfsustaining power and heat systems.

I suspect there soon will be. About the time, such systems become technicaly and economicaly  useful for the average consumer.

Keep in mind that the power utilities collect taxes  as part of your bill.  nce that source of revenue begins to wane, the government will  lokk at your  tax free system and stop subsidiing it.  And start taxing it.

Just sayin

Meanwhile however, I am staying "OFF THE GRID."


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## Melensdad

FrancSevin said:


> My Ranch/farm is totaly off the grid.
> 
> Solar panels, wood heat, Wind power, Backupt diesel genertor.
> 
> In three years, here are my issues.
> IT IS A FRACKING LOT OF WORK! . . .



The guy up the road from me heats with wood, using a wood boiler system.  I am trying to avoid that because it would require me tearing out my forced air heating system and replacing it with underfloor or baseboard and that would be a nightmare remodel in terms of mess and cost.  Natural gas is really easy.  I like easy.  My gas is (so far) reliable and I like reliable.

But I also see that my electricity service is the weak link.  Its not reliable.  Its expensive.

So my first goal is to get off the teat of the electric company.  

My second goal is to MINIMIZE my use of natural gas.  

A long term goal would be to eliminate the need for natural gas but I'm not sure that its economically practical given that I'd have to retrofit my home's entire heating system and that alone may not be worth the effort.


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## muleman RIP

All you need for heat using your existing system is a coil in the plenum above your furnace. I have one and it makes all the heat you could ever want. My wood boiler heats everything including my hot water.


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## bczoom

Melensdad said:


> The guy up the road from me heats with wood, using a wood boiler system.  I am trying to avoid that because it would require me tearing out my forced air heating system and replacing it with underfloor or baseboard and that would be a nightmare remodel in terms of mess and cost.


Not necessarily true Bob.  Many go with a coil insert into an existing forced air furnace.
You just put the coil in you furnace and plumb into your wood boiler.  Existing furnace components remain and your heat exchanger fan just blows over these coils for heat.
When I break down and do a wood boiler, that's my plan.

A google search gives lots of results.  Here's a link to one of the first that popped up.
http://www.brazetek.com/


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## Melensdad

That I did not know!

Hmmmm . . . . might have to re-evaluate my plans.  At least it gives me a long term option for replacing the natural gas heat.


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## Dargo

Melensdad said:


> The guy up the road from me heats with wood, using a wood boiler system.



My "crazy" neighbor has done that for almost a decade now.  All his hot water is from his wood boiler as is his pool heater.  The only issue is it's a lot of work to keep the burner stoked and loaded, ashes removed etc.  The only real way he has been able to do so is because his business is making wood pallets.  That way he has a constant supply of wood and most of his workers live where they work, if you know what I mean, and it's part of their job to keep the wood burner going.  To allow the burner to go out is well known to result in automatic termination.  I considered one of those units, but I don't have the desire to keep it going all the time and, even if I could get them to work any, all but two of my kids are in college.


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## bczoom

Bob,

If you're burning pallets, yep... you'll be at it a lot.

As Bill will  (should?) attest, don't let the firewood scare you.  They don't burn much when you throw big chunks in.  A friend of mine has one and only loads it once or twice a day.  There is no splitting into "little" chunks (like you would use in a fireplace).  You throw in logs as big as you can handle and they burn forever.


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## Melensdad

Dumb question, but is it possible to have a natural gas furnace with a wood furnace back up system *(have dual heat exchangers???)*



Going back to Post #1, I'm comfortable with PHASE 1 and with Part A of PHASE 2.  I'm going to have to re-evaluate Part B of PHASE 2.


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## Dargo

Melensdad said:


> Dumb question, but is it possible to have a natural gas furnace with a wood furnace back up system *(have dual heat exchangers???)*
> 
> 
> 
> Going back to Post #1, I'm comfortable with PHASE 1 and with Part A of PHASE 2.  I'm going to have to re-evaluate Part B of PHASE 2.



My last house had a wood burner (with a cast iron insert to also burn coal - nice with my coal mine ties) in the garage that simply was an additional feed into the supply system of the house.  It was a cast iron "burn box" with an outer enclosure.  It simply had a fan that blew the air between the cast iron burner and the outer enclosure into the duct work.  It worked extremely well.  I all but quit using wood when I found that a bowling ball sized chunk of coal put in a wood fire (to get it started) would heat my home for 14 hours or so.  The only problem was when the neighbors began to start looking for the source of all the black dust on their cars.


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## FrancSevin

If you have a big enough swimming pool you can use it to cool you house and the house will heat the pool. I did it for next to nothing in Chicago back in 1970.
You can use the same exchanger as for your wood  heater.  Just change the valves for heat or cool.


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## bczoom

Melensdad said:


> Dumb question, but is it possible to have a natural gas furnace with a wood furnace back up system *(have dual heat exchangers???)*


Mine is electric (and will work) but even for NG it should be yes. (Bill?  Murph?) The wood exchanger fits above your gas exchanger or if your air handler doesn't have the space, as Bill did, put it in the plenum.  You'll need dual thermostats.  You set the wood at desired temp and the NG a few degrees lower.  If your wood stove goes out or can't keep up, the NG kicks in.


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## Melensdad

bczoom said:


> Mine is electric (and will work) but even for NG it should be yes. (Bill?  Murph?) *The wood exchanger fits above your gas exchanger or if your air handler doesn't have the space, as Bill did, put it in the plenum.  You'll need dual thermostats.  You set the wood at desired temp and the NG a few degrees lower.  If your wood stove goes out or can't keep up, the NG kicks in.*



I think I like that idea.


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## bczoom

If/as you pursue it, consider your outdoor burner location.  A good one will supply a lot more heat then your furnace and hot water tank can use.  Properly located, it can heat the pool and pool house and (I forgot the distance) but maybe your garage and guest house as well.

As you consider location, also remember prevailing winds.  You don't want it in the NW corner as the smoke will always be upwind from the house.  A real bitch if you want to open windows or just hang out around the house/pool.


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## Mtn-Track

Whatever you do, DON'T do net-metering! Best to get the paperwork from your electric company and read the 'fine print'. Their jurisdiction stops at your meter now, but sign up for net-metering and they now have full jurisdiction/control of your entire house. Add to that, your electric company is tied-in to the DOE, EPA, and tons of other agencies that would then have jurisdiction of your house/property as a public generation facility. Go Off-The-Grid and be done with it or do a partial system that you can switch over to in an outage and run critical functions.

No matter what you do, read your electric contract and then their paperwork on net-metering. Depending on your contract, they may penalize you for pulling the plug on them, as mine says if I disconnect or go to another electric supply, I have to pay them for 'loss of service'. I even paid for all the poles and the transformer to my property but that doesn't matter, that's what my contract fine print says. In addition, they don't hand out financial 'incentives' or 'rebates' just to get people to 'go green'. It's really a way for them to officially 'buy' all the rights to your system and the structure that it's installed in! 

Best read the fine print!


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## Melensdad

Mtn-Track said:


> Whatever you do, DON'T do net-metering! Best to get the paperwork from your electric company and read the 'fine print'. Their jurisdiction stops at your meter now, but sign up for net-metering and they now have full jurisdiction/control of your entire house...


Ahhh, OK.  No net metering.  My goal is to minimize or eliminate them so I am a smaller_ (or non-existent)_ customer, not become their employee.





bczoom said:


> If/as you pursue it, consider your outdoor burner location.


As I looked at my original post, I had not really looked at even having an outdoor burner.  Now that it is in the possible mix for Phase 2, Part B it is something that becomes problematic.


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## Dargo

Melensdad said:


> Now that it is in the possible mix for Phase 2, Part B it is something that becomes problematic.



For you or a neighbor?


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## bczoom

If you have a SE location, you should be good.  If not, put it where your neighbor is downwind. 

My plan when I break the piggy bank to do it is to incorporate the wood burner into a larger structure.  I'm thinking of building a 24x48ish picnic pavilion similar to what you see in parks.
On the south side will be wood storage of 12'x24' (12' on the 40' dimension).  Next to that will be a couple enclosed rooms.  One for wood burner and the other for an outdoor kitchen and utility area.  That's another 12x24 (and again 12' on the 40').  The last 24x24' area will be open for picnic tables, grill... for a general party area.


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## Melensdad

Dargo said:


> For you or a neighbor?



For me.

As with many others here, despite the fact that I live on several acres, the problem I have is that the house site is actually pretty compact on the ridge area of the hill.  We have woods very close to the downhill side of the house, which is also the side from which we get prevailing winds.  The open area to the side of the house _(on the side where the home's mechanical room sits)_ is the side where our kitchen patio sits, also where the swimming pool sits, etc.  But its also somewhat 'crowded' because of landscaping, a small fountain, the fencing, and part of the hill slope.  

The ideal location_ (in my mind now)_ is on the south east side of my attached garage and would require tearing out an expensive fence, digging up a couple small trees, putting in a new retaining wall, pouring a new concrete slab, then reinstalling the fencing around the area where the boiler would sit.  

Then I'd bet a boring machine would be needed to run the new lines under the gas and electric lines I have criss-crossing my yard, under a patio, etc only to bust them through a wall to access the mechanical room.


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## bczoom

Dargo said:


> For you or a neighbor?





bczoom said:


> If you have a SE location, you should be good.  If not, put it where your neighbor is downwind.


Brent beat me to it...


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## FrancSevin

Melensdad said:


> For me.
> 
> As with many others here, despite the fact that I live on several acres, the problem I have is that the house site is actually pretty compact on the ridge area of the hill. We have woods very close to the downhill side of the house, which is also the side from which we get prevailing winds. The open area to the side of the house _(on the side where the home's mechanical room sits)_ is the side where our kitchen patio sits, also where the swimming pool sits, etc. But its also somewhat 'crowded' because of landscaping, a small fountain, the fencing, and part of the hill slope.
> 
> The ideal location_ (in my mind now)_ is on the south east side of my attached garage and would require tearing out an expensive fence, digging up a couple small trees, putting in a new retaining wall, pouring a new concrete slab, then reinstalling the fencing around the area where the boiler would sit.
> 
> Then I'd bet a boring machine would be needed to run the new lines under the gas and electric lines I have criss-crossing my yard, under a patio, etc only to bust them through a wall to access the mechanical room.


 

And you are just talking about system installation.
Like I said,  It is a frackin' lot of work.

I go to my ranch in the Spring summer and fall everyweek end.  I'll bet I spend at least an hour dealing with the power and/or heating issues.


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## loboloco

loboloco said:


> Phase 3:  Build a methane generator, convert your LNG heating system to burn methane.
> Tank the excess during the summer months and burn it through the winter.


That is NOT legal.  The wood gas unit will technically run the NG  heating system too.  But its illegal to burn any gas inside your home  that is not treated with a perfume agent in case of a leak.  

Why in the world do you have your heat burner in the house?  Switch to an outside burn unit.  By the way, methane, unless specially cleaned, already comes with a perfume.  It smells like a nasty fart.


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## Melensdad

loboloco said:


> Why in the world do you have your heat burner in the house?  Switch to an outside burn unit.  By the way, methane, unless specially cleaned, already comes with a perfume.  It smells like a nasty fart.


I have a traditional NG forced air furnace/combo AC unit.  Those are always in the house.  

The NG furnace can actually burn wood gas, the wood gasifier would be outside the house, the wood gas could simply be pumped through the exiting NG lines right to the furnace.  However, as stated, its illegal.


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## BigAl RIP

I seem to have a little trouble understanding all this . I have a solar home in a Panama where we get 300 inches of rain a year . Lots of cloudy days .
It is a 5 bedroom 3 bath 7500 sq ft home . It runs on a 2500 watt solar system. I have 12 days of backup from the batteries in case of bad weather . I also have a wind turbine that is basically not needed . *The system works perfectly . It has been installed for 8 years with no changes made .*

Let me ask a question : *Did you guys design your own system or have a solar pro do the calc's ?* Most quality dealers will do a solar evaluation of your needs and the area you are in to get the most out of your system . Many also hold Day Classes so you can become very comfortable with solar System .

I strongly recommend anyone thinking of going solar to take one of these classes . The solar industry is discovering new ways everyday to make the systems more efficient . A system 10 years old is not like the systems of today .

With that being said I would not hesitate to install another solar system in the future .
_*A good system is not cheap and if you already have grid power the cost will never be recovered for installing a back up solar system even if you sell power back to the utility company .*_


Also consider that when converting DC battery power to AC you will lose about 20% . So make sure you add extra Solar wattage for the decrease .

Also go for the most efficient electric Refrigerator you can buy or go with a gas unit , I use 2 gas units set up side by side in my place , Dryer is gas , Hot water is gas , Stove is gas . Water system is 24 volt DC .


Good luck ! JMO


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## Melensdad

Al, your post, in many ways, illustrates the problems I'm having.  

You built your home with solar in mind, planned on using propane appliances, etc.  Not so in my case.  In fact both myself and my builder argued with my wife about things like gas cook tops, to no avail.  Our whole kitchen is electric.  Lots of other electric current users here too.  Well pump, multiple freezers, refrigerators, 2 pool pumps, forced air heat, electric AC.  

As for solar installers in my area, that is proving problematic.  I have not even gotten an email back from the short list that I can located within a hundred or so mile radius of where I live.

If I am going to get this done this summer then I need to get people out here fairly soon to start assessments, plan wiring routes, see if my plans actually make sense on where to locate the battery banks, allow for expansion, etc.


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