# Thiokol 601



## barber1981

Hey everyone,

I just recently join because i have the opportunity to buy a 1963 Thiokol 601 snowcat. It was bought new by the State of North Dakota, and was used up till 2001 at which point a farmer bought it from them. I have the opportunity to buy the sled from him for the price of $5500.00. It runs, and drives well, but has a couple of small issues that any 1963 machine would have. It is structurally, and mechanically sound, and the tracks seem to be in good shape for the age as well. What do you guy's think. Also any information, or insite on this model would be greatly appreciated as well. I just want to fix it up, and play around with it mostly. I live in the foothills of Colorado so i have plenty of places to use it.

What do you think guys?

Josh



P.S.

This is the only picture i ended up taking of it, but from the looks of the tags that were on the door i'm starting to think that it may have been givin to the state of north dakota by the u.s. Air Force after it was done with service with them. Any insite on this guys?....It also has the origional trailer that goes with it as well. it is wide, and has grooves in the bed to fit the track perfectly. Seems to me that $5500.00 for all if may not be a bad price, but i don't know anything about them. I'm only 25, and have worked on car restorations alot, and wanted to try something different. Let me know what your thoughts are.


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## Snowcat Operations

What the hell are you waiting for!  If you dont someone else will real soon.  We are starting to get alot of 601 owners here.  Lucky for you most of them have done or are in the process of doing frame off restorations.  Dont think about it just do it.  Thats what I think.


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## Snowcat Operations

It has a trailor too!!  Man If you dont want it or change your mind call me.  I will drive up tomarrow and pay cash for it.  Jump on it.


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## Melensdad

Hi Josh, I have to agree that you are looking at a 'steal' for that price.  I'd hop on it and have it home before someone else snags it right out from under you.

It would also be very interesting if you could find the history of that unit.  The paint is correct for a military unit used by the Air Force, so it probably has some stories to tell, if you can find them.


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## barber1981

Well it's out of state, and in a good hiding spot where there isn't much snow.  Noone there wants it because it never snow's enough.  I'm going to go back and buy it if it is as good of a deal as it seems it may be.


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## mtntopper

He who hesitates, loses out. Do you want to make a quick 1k, I would bet that someone on the forum would give you a quick 1K to be first in line...   If I buy anymore snow cats, I will probably be less one wife.


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## barber1981

Well for anyone who care's, i'm going to pick it up this weekend, i'll post a few pics, so keep tuned in....


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## Melensdad

barber1981 said:
			
		

> Well for anyone who care's, i'm going to pick it up this weekend, i'll post a few pics, so keep tuned in....


Congrats 

What are your plans for it?  Will you be doing a restoration, or some other upgrades?


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## BigAl RIP

Congrats! And have a safe trip . Make sure the tires and trailer brakes/lights are working well . Do you have to travel in any snow ?? Tire chains for Truck and Trailer ?? Bottle jack for flats and a good 4way lugnut wrench .
 I'll leave a light on .
 Al


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## mtntopper

barber1981 said:
			
		

> Well for anyone who care's, i'm going to pick it up this weekend, i'll post a few pics, so keep tuned in....


 
Looks like you are getting a great deal, congrats. Jump in and post often on your new snowcat.


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## Snowcat Operations

Glad we pressured you into getting it.   Have a safe trip and good luck!  Take lots of pictures please.  Start you own thread on your trip.  Have fun. 

I stole this from another thread. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=259972213427415746&hl=en  I think you will like it.


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## bronco bruce

This machine looks to be in good shape for the year. I suspect it was used by the Air Force before the state of North Dakota picked it up. You did well with the price, especially with the trailer. 

I own two 1962 Thiokols, a 10 passenger like the one you bought and an 8 passenger. We've used the 10 passenger several times this winter going into our cabin in NW Colorado and it did very well in 2 - 2.5 ft of snow. We're finally starting to get more snow so we're waiting to see how it performs in 3 - 5 feet of snow. 

Good luck with your machine and if the tires aren't foamed I'd recommend doing it ASAP. Also check the lug nuts on the wheels regularly. 

Bruce


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## yellowpine O.T.S.

Dido on all the above JUMP ON IT!  Thats a great deal and they only come along once in awhile.  There is a lot of snow cat dealers out there that will beet you too it if they can, so wire the money close the deal!

Good luck,KIF

ps. if you ever want to sell it, I will buy it and or if you need help with transport or anything else feel free to call 208-633-9878(YURT)


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## MNoutdoors RIP

Bill, you only need one good one. keep the one named Janice


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## MNoutdoors RIP

barber1981    Do not buy that machine  .................... instead give me the phone number of the farmer and we will go look at it for you ..... by the way what size ball do you think the trailer is............ 



Good luck, By the way the differential is worth what you paid for the machine


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## weatherby

I told ya it was a steal when you first pm. me . I,ve been away for the last  five days so as soon as I got home I got on to see if you bought it because I have someone who REALLY wants it if you did not buy it but if that was the case I would be just one of many in a mad race out to N. Dakota  to be the first in line .You got a VERY good deal I want to see more pic. when you get it home


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## barber1981

Well as you all requested here it is.  It made the trip back perfectly, and i've done quite a bit of work on it since these pictures.  Cleaned it all up inside....fixed the coolant leak it had, got all the lights, and blinkers working perfectly.....it's amazing that everything actually works...even the old am radio works!....working on putting a kit in the carb., and one of the steering master cylinders needs a kit as well....Anyway's here are some picks...like i said this is what it looked like when i picked it up....it look alot better now....(took those ugly mudflaps off the front)

It drives great too....tracks are in pretty good shape....kind of amazing given the history of it, and how old it is.

Unfortunatly it looks like i won't be able to keep it so i'm going to be selling it after i get everything in good running order (isn't much to do)......I'm getting married this summer, and building a new house all at the same time, and don't have the time, or the money to go to any great length on restoring the old cat.  It is actually in pretty good shape anyway's.  I don't want to get rid of it, but the timing is all wrong for me.  Plus i live in the middle of Fort Collins colorado, and there isn't enough snow here for me to really utilize it. 

 Let me know what you guy's think of it!


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## barber1981




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## barber1981




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## MNoutdoors RIP

Barber1981, I think you should sell it to me for what you  paid plus gas money. only if you kick in the binders and chains though. 

let me know if you are going to sell and when...........

by the way what size ball is that trailer...........


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## Melensdad

Yup boggie right about this Thiokol, it sure lacks potential, but don't sell it to boggie, sell it to me.  I can take it off your hands.  Heck, I'll even make sure you don't lose too much in the deal.


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## barber1981

Nice try, but no cigar.......i've already got more money that what i paid into it.  Replaced all the hoses, belts, and redid a bunch of wiring.....the trailer i was supose to get with it was home made, and a total piece of crap, and the spindels were broke on top of it.  I borrowed the trailer from my place of work along with the binders, and that won't  be going with the cat.....but nice try!


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## Melensdad

Well it sure looks like a great unit for a restoration & interior upgrade.  Keep the photos coming so we can watch your progress.


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## barber1981

My next question is what size of motor does this cat have in it....i know its a ford straight six, but they made several sized...i've hear that the air force models had a 240 cubic in motor.  is this true, and where can i get a rebuild kit for the steering master cylinders?  And Either a new carb, or a kit for the one that is on it.  Anyone have any idea's?


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## yellowpine O.T.S.

I bet it's a ford 300 industrial straight six. Give me an email or call with the selling price 208-633-9878


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## mtncrawler

Could also be a 223 if it's an older one. 300 six has the carburator on the right side of the engine. I am trying to figure out which serial number was the break over point for engine size.


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## socal4t12

my 4t10 was made in late 1961. has the serial# 183. came with the ford 223. hope this helps.


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## crafttree

I have the chance to purchase a snow cat in good running condition for $6000. The only ID the machine has on it is snow craft industries. This snocat looks like a thiokol 601. Not sure what it is.I could not find any info on the internet on snowcraft industries of colorado. Any comments on price or what I am looking at would help. Thanks


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## weatherby

crafttree said:


> I have the chance to purchase a snow cat in good running condition for $6000. The only ID the machine has on it is snow craft industries. This snocat looks like a thiokol 601. Not sure what it is.I could not find any info on the internet on snowcraft industries of colorado. Any comments on price or what I am looking at would help. Thanks



What you are looking at is a Thiokol 601 and it looks like a 1963, it should have a ford 223ci gas motor. 4 speed trans. $6000.00 could be a good price "if" tracks, motor, and trans. are in descent shape. I have a thread on restoring one of these 601s on the Snowcat Restoration & Modification page, then go to page 2 and it is Titled THIOKOL 601 RESTORE


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## crafttree

Thanks for the reply, after looking into the snocat a little more I am told it has a ford 6cly motor and auto transmission. So it looks like it was upgraded along the way at some point.


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## weatherby

crafttree said:


> Thanks for the reply, after looking into the snocat a little more I am told it has a ford 6cly motor and auto transmission. So it looks like it was upgraded along the way at some point.



We would like to see more pics if possible, If you check out my thread on my restore of my 601, you will learn a lot.


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## crafttree

I found the ID tag in the front of the cab and it says 4t10 made in 1962. It has a c5 ford 3 speed auto trans and an oc-15 rear end. The bogey drive wheel looks like the ones on the 601. Sorry the pics are not the best.

601 or 4t10?


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## Mainer

It's a 4T10, highly modified.
You see there are no axles... and hence it is not a 601.
The way the OC-15 is fitted, it shows it is not stock.
The tracks are 601.  The OC-15 is obviously 601.
The transmission is neither 4T10 or 601.  Sprockets are 601.
I've never seen a conversion like this.  Machine itself looks to be in nice shape and the conversion looks to be quite good.... the axle-less design of the 4T10 is most likely weaker than the 601 yet gives you clearances.  
Clearly a mixed bag... the most valuable piece of that conversion are the OC-15 and the tracks.  If in nice condition, the OC-15 is worth about $8K (the lighter OC-12 is about $4K).  The tracks are worth about $4-5K if also in similar condition...which they look from the photos.
Whadya think?  Pick it up for $6K?  Good you're asking questions... but buy it before someone else does as there are certainly people hunting for it as you contemplate it.  It's a hybrid... it's a great conversoin... it's a stupid-good price if it's running.  Your decision should be made.


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## crafttree

You are right, I am not at all familiar with the under carriage of this machine. could you explain what I am looking at in this pic of the under carriage?

Dick


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## weatherby

Yes...It is definitely a 4T10 that somebody has morphed into a 601. One other "quick" way to identify a 4t10 from a 601 is 4t10s have the wiper motors above the windshield, unlike a 601 that have the wiper motors below the windshield. 

It still "may" be worth 6000.00 "IF" it was done correctly.


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## crafttree

The machine has snowcraft stickers on the doors so I assume they did the mod. Know much about them?


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## weatherby

crafttree said:


> The machine has snowcraft stickers on the doors so I assume they did the mod. Know much about them?



No ..never heard of them!


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## weatherby

Here is a pic of a 601 frame & axles


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## weatherby

Sorry I forgot the pic in the last post, so here it is


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## Mainer

weatherby said:


> It still "may" be worth 6000.00 "IF" it was done correctly.



Yea, very good point and advice.

Crafttree----In terms of history and mods... as you'd imagine, once people start to muck with the machines... ya never know..some are done beautifully and others...  Even maintaining a standard machine is quite poorly done, let alone one with significant modifications.

Personally, the 4T10's are often misunderstood ... like the one you have found, it's the original cab design and the predecessor to the 601 that this one is made out to be...

See the below... this was the design of what this machine was... schematic and photo of the back-end 4T.  Also you will see sprocket variations between 4T's and 6's and also track style differences between 4T10 (with wheel guides) and 601.

Subtle nuances that we are all so very passionate about.  8)


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## crafttree

Since I don't know a good mod from a poor one, are there some things I should look for that might give me some clues as to how well the job was done?


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## Snowtrac Nome

crafttree said:


> Since I don't know a good mod from a poor one, are there some things I should look for that might give me some clues as to how well the job was done?


 as far as mods go do do items used to addapt stuff look factory or did they use addaptors cut out ometal witha torch and your second clue should be welding are the beads uniforn and looking like pennys laied down or do they look like bird terds of full of pin holes 3 rd thing is routing of pipes hoses and wiring harnesses are they laied out nicely with no chafing or rubbing or do they look added on an run haphazzardly.


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## weatherby

crafttree said:


> Since I don't know a good mod from a poor one, are there some things I should look for that might give me some clues as to how well the job was done?



I wish I could look at it in person for you, because without physically looking at it, It's nearly impossible to assume the mods on this cat were done correctly or incorrectly. The best we can do on this site is answer any questions that you have. One thing that I did notice, in your pic of the dash, it shows the Master switch in the ON position and the Tach. reading about 2800 RPM, unless somebody was revving the engine, the normal idle rpm should be around 700 rpm, and if the engine "was" idling normal when that pic was taken, then the tach is not reading correctly.


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## Snowtrac Nome

weatherby said:


> I wish I could look at it in person for you, because without physically looking at it, It's nearly impossible to assume the mods on this cat were done correctly or incorrectly. The best we can do on this site is answer any questions that you have. One thing that I did notice, in your pic of the dash, it shows the Master switch in the ON position and the Tach. reading about 2800 RPM, unless somebody was revving the engine, the normal idle rpm should be around 700 rpm, and if the engine "was" idling normal when that pic was taken, then the tach is not reading correctly.


 ihave seen some electronic tachs jump when the power is shut off don't ask me why but i have seen both aftermarket and oem do that on certin cars.


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## mtncrawler

Question I have is how many guys have PM'ed you with the idea that "if you're not real interested I'd sure appreciate it if you'd give me the phone number" routine. Haven't seen a 601 or a Trackmaster hit the open market for a while now.


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## Mainer

I echo that question as well... awww heck... I'm guilty of that and not ashamed for a second.  I'll also say... that it never actually has worked for me either!  Seems that anyone that actually gets 'involved' with a TM/601 ... well... it's usually love at first sight and that's all she wrote!
Hey, it's an unparalleled high-demand super performing model of machine!  No comments from the 'powder-puff' lightweight cat peanut gallery.... proof is simply in the pudding guys... they get snapped up lightning fast and people clammer and hunt high-and-low for them... and when you see the Weatherby rebuild... it just makes it not only all that much more attractive... but that much more doable as he's created the 'bible' for not only 601 concours show-grade restoration...but general restoration of a Thiokol machine.


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## crafttree

The tach is apparently stuck at 2800. No batteries in it at present. The ignition switch was left on. Going to see if I can get it started today.
Is there a good pic posted some where of a 4t10 with the cab removed so I can see what it looks like with out any mods. I plan on crawling under it to day to see what all was done.
You are right I love looks of this cat. Wish I had the $ to do a frame up restoration.
With so many 601 mods to it I am not sure what to call it.
I plan on replacing tires,
 bearings and seals.  I suspect the brake bands need to be redone and the brake steer hydrolics gone thru.
I don't know much about the suspension on the 4t10, not sure what needs to be done there.
I am sure this will be an adventure, and I'll be asking lots of questions.


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## weatherby

I don't think a pic of a 4T10 undercarriage as ever been posted, (at least since 2006) but I will see what I can find. 
   You ask all the questions you want, there is a lot of knowledge on this site about these Thiokol 4T10 and 601s and they would be more than happy to try and help you any way they can. Also, (there is no such thing as a stupid question on this site).


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## Snowtrac Nome

weatherby said:


> I don't think a pic of a 4T10 undercarriage as ever been posted, (at least since 2006) but I will see what I can find.
> You ask all the questions you want, there is a lot of knowledge on this site about these Thiokol 4T10 and 601s and they would be more than happy to try and help you any way they can. Also, (there is no such thing as a stupid question on this site).


 you forgot about one  question is a krusty better than snow tracs or thiokols


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## weatherby

dds said:


> you forgot about one  question is a krusty better than snow tracs or thiokols



I think we all know how I would answer that question


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## crafttree

Here is a pic of the mods around the c6 auto trans. I fired it up today, ran great, and will load it on a trailer tomorrow and bring that sweet thing home. will post some more pics as I go


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## Mainer

Although there are several 600's around with the auto tranny upgrade... this is the first ever posted photo of the guts.  Keep those pics high-resolution please so we can enjoy the details!  Keep 'em coming.  Once you get in there, a thorough photo shoot around mounting brackets, etc. would be interesting... you should be able to tell alot based on how well some of the gear has been mounted...OC-15, tranny, etc...


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## Mainer

crafttree said:


> ...Is there a good pic posted some where of a 4t10 with the cab removed so I can see what it looks like with out any mods. I plan on crawling under it to day to see what all was done....



Like Weatherby, I've never seen a pure untouched 4T10 tub photo... these are the closest I've seen from a forum member...diff was changed to a Bombi diff... not too high res.

I think there may be some very nice 4T10 tub photos in process from one of the forum member with a T10 in process...that will be going under the knife soon...but before it does, certainly some very hi-res photos will be taken.


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## Snowtrac Nome

i liked the 4t suspension that was posted further back resembles the christi suspension of the early russian tanks like the t34


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## crafttree

Here are smoe better pics of the mods on the 4t10.
Can the tracks be removed by just using the track clamps or does the track tension adjuster have to be backed off a little too?


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## crafttree

a few more pics


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## weatherby

To remove your tracks, you can probably just use the track jacks, however, when installing the tracks, you should adjust the track adjusters all the way back, it will make it all that much easier to bring the track ends together.


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## crafttree

Loading up and heading home, gonna be fun


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## Snowtrac Nome

i like the drain plug mod added to the oil pan you should always change the filter to but the drain plug makes the job neet and clean


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## Mainer

Greeeat photos! Really luv the blow-by-blow... looks like a great machine.  Nice and neat and nicely accessorized.  I like the color...haven't seen one this color before... I've seen a couple dark green units that were forestry units.  Some Army tan, Army green, etc... but not this sage color that blends like a chameleon to the landscape.  If the mods of the tranny and OC-15 were done well... properly aligned, etc... then you got a great machine & deal there!


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## crafttree

The fun begins?  Got all the wheels off on one side and all the bearings were in good shape, that was the good news. It did not take long to see that the bushing was out in the rear suspension arm, only one missing, can a new bushing be made and pressed in or do I need to find another arm?
The manual says that all four wheels are connected to one large central spring. Looking at the photos there are what looks like two tubes with springs in them Right?  Both rear cylinders in the suspension look like what ever was functioning inside is long since worn out. Do both tubes have springs in them or is the rear one some kind of  shock? Am I looking at  replacing this part of the suspension or rebuilding?
  Hopefully you guys have some answers or suggestions for me.
Looking closer underneth I could see the whole chassis has been lifted so the axle will clear the rear frame cross member.


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## Mainer

Welcome to the world of the 4T.
I think this will serve as the first detailed 4T suspension 'redo' so we're all going to take note...just rip it all open and dig in there.  
Worst case scenario, the machine has enough other mods... you can yank out all that suspension and drop in spryte axles ...see posts by tomelroy who bought one already mod'd with spryte axles and tracks.


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## crafttree

Into the oc-15 rear end today, looks brand new in there including the brake bands. The slave cylinders are leaking so I need to see where to go to get them rebuilt or purchase new.
There is a bushing or rubber gromet in the case where the shaft goes thru, do these need to be replaced? The shafts were pitted a little looks like some new ones are in order.


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## crafttree

These are the slave cylinders that were on the oc-15


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## dlmorindds

Here is a picture of the slave internal components

View attachment L537_b (1).pdf


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## weatherby

crafttree said:


> Into the oc-15 rear end today, looks brand new in there including the brake bands. The slave cylinders are leaking so I need to see where to go to get them rebuilt or purchase new.
> There is a bushing or rubber gromet in the case where the shaft goes thru, do these need to be replaced? The shafts were pitted a little looks like some new ones are in order.



Those seals that the shafts go through can and should be replaced, they are inexpensive. If your shafts are pitted, you should look into getting new ones, or your new seals will still probably leak. I made my new shafts out of stainless rod.


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## weatherby

Here is a pic of the new shaft next to the original.


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## dlmorindds

crafttree said:


> These are the slave cylinders that were on the oc-15



Dick--this Enerpac distributor is in the town where I work.  These buggers are pricey  Give then a call to see if they have slave rebuild kits

http://www.hagemeyerna.com/ProductC...3db8d&bc=e3efbf4a-d3fe-4270-9828-8334c65f7d46


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## crafttree

Brake fluid was used in the brake system on my machine. I was reading about enerpac cylinders and they say to use only hydrolic fluid. What is best to use in the oc-15 brake steer system. I have heard mention of using atf, brake fluid or hydraulic fluid. Any opinions? Advantages of one over another?


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## Snowtrac Nome

crafttree said:


> Brake fluid was used in the brake system on my machine. I was reading about enerpac cylinders and they say to use only hydrolic fluid. What is best to use in the oc-15 brake steer system. I have heard mention of using atf, brake fluid or hydraulic fluid. Any opinions? Advantages of one over another?


 the thiokol guys would kow best but i would guess that you would want to use something like 5606 aviation hydraulic oil


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## crafttree

I got all the new parts and have everything back together. Putting the tracks back together today. How does one tell what the proper track tension should be on 601 tracks?


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## Snowcat Operations

When you turn and they dont fall off......  OK just joking.  I believe MAINER would be the man to answer this question.


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## crafttree

I finally got the spare track that came with the 4t10/601. The belts look new and the grousers are in pretty good shape too. The deal keeps getting better.
My partners son works for NASA and recognized an airforce # on the ID tag. He said with that number he can look up the history of this machine, where its been etc. Has anyone heard of being able to do this? If its possible, it sure would be interesting to know where that old girl has been.

I also got 4 extra 4t10 manuals that came with it.


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## MAD

Barber 1981 I am a new owner as well and in Masonville co Where will you run the 601? Maybe we can go for a trip together. I would like to see your progress on the new purchase. Enjoy.


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## crafttree

I am in eastern oregon, might be a bit of a stretch for getting together for a ride. No one in my area owns a snocat that I know of so it looks like solo trips for me. I imagine once the word gets out I will have a few folks that x country ski that will want to get into the back country for some sking though. I got lucky with the purchase of this machine, it was a fairly easy restoration job to get it ready for the snow.


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