# Kitchen Remodeling . . . it WAS going so well, and then!



## Melensdad

We've been living in our home for almost 11 years and the lovely Mrs_B decided that we should remodel the kitchen this year.  As we had already decided to do several other projects, including building me a new garage/shop I was not in a position to argue since I was spending the bulk of the money on something for *me* and she knew it.  

Besides, I'm still trying to live down last year's birthday present when I gave her a new HDTV and she still doesn't know how to turn it on.  Sort of have to wonder if that really was a gift for HER?   

Anyway all was going along pretty well with the kitchen.  The new tops were installed yesterday and look great.  I got home to find that the counter top installer even installed the new faucet and sink, although he did not hook up the plumbing.  But he did more than I expected so that is less work for me.

I decided to devote my attention to installing the new cooktop.  This is a 36" ceramic top unit with touch screen controls so it is perfectly flat.  Its a standard 220volt unit, hardwired in.  Looks like a snap to install so I pull it out of the box and set it into place.  Snug fit, but other than that it goes into the custom cut hole in the top without a hitch.  I crawl under the unit to begin to wire it up to the wall.  

That is when I hear a shriek that would have scared the last mastadon into extinction.  Now my head is under the cooktop so upon hearing the blood curdling yell I sit up and smack my head.  Hard.  Upon regaining my senses I crawl out from inside the cabinet and find out there are 2 hairline cracks in the surface of the cooktop.  No way to repair it, no easy answer other than to return it to the store and order a new one.  

And yup you guessed it, this is a special order unit, not kept in stock ANYWHERE because we never do anything the easy way 

So back to the appliance store I go this morning with the cooktop.  They are very nice.  They will order me a new one.  I explain that we are having Christmas dinner at our house and there is now a 36" wide hole in our counter.  

A replacement is due to arrive Dec 24 at the store.  

Can someone call my wife and tell her?


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## Wannafish

I hate it when that happens.

Good Luck - hope it turns out well...in the time frame you need.


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## Melensdad

Is that just a polite way of saying you *won't* call the lovely Mrs_B and explain it to her?


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## BadAttitude

B_Skurka said:
			
		

> Can someone call my wife and tell her?


Sure...give me her # and I'll tell her that your gonna fire up the grill  


better yet, maybe we can share...

I gots the range and cooktop & you gots the sink 
Then all the wimmens will be happy


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## DaveNay

BadAttitude said:
			
		

> Then all the wimmens will be happy



What the hell have *you* been smoking?!

ipo:


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## Melensdad

BadAttitude said:
			
		

> Sure...give me her # and I'll tell her that your gonna fire up the grill
> 
> 
> better yet, maybe we can share...
> 
> I gots the range and cooktop & you gots the sink
> Then all the wimmens will be happy



Heck now I have an EXTRA sink because the old sink & faucet are sitting on the floor of the garage.  You can have it if you want it!  (you pay for shipping)


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## BadAttitude

Tanx but I'll pass  

already have a new sink


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## BadAttitude

DaveNay said:
			
		

> What the hell have *you* been smoking?!
> 
> ipo:


 
it's 'the lack of' that's fogging my mind


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## Cowboyjg

Bob....it doesn't have to be all that bad if the real interest is in being able to prepare Xmas day dinner. Yes the new one has been ordered and we all know (including the Lovely Mrs. B.) that she *WILL* have the cooktop she wants!!!

Go to the used building supply place...there is one in every town, some have several....pick up a temporary for the dinner and then install the right one when it gets there. One benefit here is that she doesn't have to mess up the new one for all those folks. Another benefit here is that you won't have to worry on Xmas eve if the new one works or not.

Heck.....I have one in storage at the company building that I removed from a house we demo'd...it works great....what dimensions do you need....pay to ship it and I'll send it...


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## Melensdad

I have the old cooktop (sitting under the old sink) on the floor of the garage now.  The problem is the shape of the old unit.  Now way rig it up.  I'm thinking a hot plate may be the temporary solution.  Cheap enough too.  

The lovely Mrs_B still doesn't know the status . . .


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## DAP

Well, if I was a bettin man ... I'd say ... 

3 possibilities ... 

1. Pay now
2. Pay later
3. Pay now & later ...

One thing not made clear ... is the Vendor replacing the cooktop free of charge or not .... 

What did you tell them regarding the cracked cooktop?

Can you bail on them and get a new unit from another vendor ... (or is this entirely out of the question based on designs, expectations, etc. )

I'm thinkin #3 above Bob ... man that sucks.


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## Melensdad

The cooktop is being replaced with no issues, in fact they now are giving me the replacement for $125 less and they rang it up as a brand new sale so it also qualifies for an additional rebate of $50.  So I cannot complain about that.

Before I ordered it the first time, I did a price check at several appliance stores, all had it as a special order item.  Nobody stocks this unit.  Most stores stock the mid-priced units that appeal to most people.  The low end stuff is special order and they try to upsell to a mid-priced unit.  The higher end stuff is just too expensive to stock but they gladly take your order.  This was a higher end item.


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## BadAttitude

Ya know Bob, you disappoint me...

if you had ordered *2* of those like everything else
you wouldn't be in this predicament


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## Chief

Bob, if you have a scrap piece of plywood around the house, is is possible to make a cut out for the old cook top in the plywood and then cut the piece of plywood down small enough so it can safely lay over top of and cover the hole in your new counter top and safely support the old cooktop?  This would at least give you a temp cooktop with materials you already have and not have to buy anything else.  Just a thought.  We did something like that once with a 3/4 inch piece of plywood.  It ain't pretty but it worked and was good temp until the permanant cooktop arrived.


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## Melensdad

Quite the opposite.  The old cooktop is larger than the new one, it extends farther forward and hangs over the front of the cabinets.  The new cooktop is 36" wide just like the old one, but it sets into the surface of the top and is surrounded by the top on all 4 sides.

I sent my foodservice manager at my company out to the commercial equipment storage room to see what could be found to substitute for a burner or two so we can get by for the next 10 days.


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## Dargo

Hey Bob, I have a couple of good torches...


You know, no wait cooking that way!


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## Melensdad

Dargo said:
			
		

> Hey Bob, I have a couple of good torches...
> 
> 
> You know, no wait cooking that way!




Dargo, a torch is useful to carmalize the sugars on the surface of a true Creme Brulee, but beyond that, I'm not so sure I want torches used in the kitchen.  Especially since the remodeling is getting closer to completion.


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## Melensdad

*The day AFTER Christmas and we still have no cooktop!*

So we had a simple meal yesterday, veggies cooked in the oven and the microwave.  No sauces.  No sauteed veggies.  Nothing fried.

I do have a 'single burner' plug in unit for simple cooking.  I've got today and tomorrow off from work, hopefully the replacement cooktop will arrive and I can get it installed in short order.

But we had a great holiday meal anyway.  It turned out to be a good thing that we only had the lovely Mrs_B's sister over for the holiday.  Had my brother and his family showed up, I think we would have overwhelmed the single burner's ability!

I hope all of you had great holiday meals too.


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## Mith

Dont feel too bad Bob, we are 1 year exactly (we took the ceiling down last year christmas day) into our remodel thing.
We got a floor a couple weeks ago, before then it was just a mud floor with a bit of concrete on top in our kitchen. We still have no surfaces, just planks propped up on stuff, we have a new sink though, stood up on a frame made out of some scrap metal I found down the garden. The cooker is on a small trolley but is wired in on a long cable so it works. We finally got rid of the wood burner and now have central heating, even got some insulation in some rooms now too, lots warmer, this time last year I had to wear gloves when typing, now I dont, still have to wear 2 layers though. Its still really novel being able to just turn the cooker on, not having to stoke it up and add logs 2 hours in advance 

PS, gotta love those press button hobs, really easy to clean, for what we wanted that option wasnt available here, ah well


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## BadAttitude

Don't feel alone Bob, I still don't have a kitchen sink installed yet.  Too many irons in the fire. In fact I should be in there doing just that, instead of doing what I'm doing now.  

I tried to use the excuse that I have to keep an eye on the new puppy...and believe me, she's a handful...yet I don't think Mrs BA bought it


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## bczoom

Mith,

Got any pictures of that kitchen?


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## Mith

Brian, I went and took some, it looks alot better now with the plaster on the walls and a floor, all starting to come together. The units in the picture are the old ones, just using them to hold the surfaces up. No new appliences except the cooker yet.
The table in the secong pic is one that we got from the college, they had the sceince rooms redone and we got all the old tables and wood surfaces. The wood (cant remember what its called) is really posh, solid wood, we are sanding it and refinishing for the surfaces, most of the surfaces will be just solid wood. Sorry the pics are quite close up.

We have quite a few of those tables kicking around, make great outdoor workshops and workbenches.


Bob, are we gunna be seeing pics of your kitchen, or are you just wating to wow us with the finished product


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## bczoom

Mith,

Sorry man.  By the description you provided, it sounded like the decor was similar to your shop.  I see now that it isn't such and is much nicer.

Brian


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## Mith

Ha, no, its pretty nice at the moment, doesnt look too bad, should be OK when its done (say, 3-5 years  )

Hey, what are you saying about my shop! Nothing wrong with it, its very clean!  

PS, Im gunna take the pics out so it doesnt block Bobs thread


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## Melensdad

*HEY GUESS WHAT!?!

*My cooktop just arrived and I can pick it up today.  The lovely Mrs_B will be thrilled to see it.  I just hope this one is not cracked!!!


Mith . . . as for blocking my thread, no problem at all.  This thread is not one of anything more than a ramble.


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## Melensdad

Well all is well is the household again.

The little temporary one-burner counter top warmer is banished forever.  The new ceramic surface cooktop is now installed.  Unfortunately I was supposed to play a goame with my daughter and her friends and the cooktop install competed with that game time.  It took _*exactly*_ the same amount of time to install as a game of Mexican Train Dominos took my daughter and her friends to play 

The first picture shows the hole I was left with when the first cooktop arrived cracked. 
Picture 2 shows a piece of plywood that served as our countertop for 2 weeks.
Picture 3 shows the cooktop installed in place.
Picture 4 shows the touch controls and one of the burners on.  We've never had a cooktop like this, I was amazed at how fast it heats up. 
Picture 5 shows the finished wiring under the countertop.
All photos were shot with my camera phone, so the quality is pretty bad, but you get the idea.  

Now we have to work on the walls.  They will be covered with ceramic tile from the countertop all the way up to the ceiling.  I'm just not sure how long that will take.


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## BoneheadNW

I like the lime green color of the walls!  
We had a similar cooktop installed in our house in San Diego.  The cooktop worked great, but without a flame to remind you it was on caused some of us to, er, need to be reminded to keep his hands off the burners at all times.  
Bonehead


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## Melensdad

The walls are actually yellow, the camera-phone really distorts the colors unless the photos are taken in bright sunlight.  

I'm a little worried about the surface remaining hot, there are small red warning lights that stay on until the top is cool but I suspect there will be a burnt hand or two until we learn what "hot" really means!

On think that I like about the cooktop is that there are no control knobs to collect food debris. The surface is prefectly smooth and the controls are just touch sensitive areas on the surface.  It should make it very easy to keep clean.


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## bczoom

BoneheadNW said:
			
		

> I like the lime green color of the walls!


Me too!!! It matches his office desk


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## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

B_Skurka said:
			
		

> The walls are actually yellow, the camera-phone really distorts the colors unless the photos are taken in bright sunlight.
> 
> I'm a little worried about the surface remaining hot, there are small red warning lights that stay on until the top is cool but I suspect there will be a burnt hand or two until we learn what "hot" really means!
> 
> On think that I like about the cooktop is that there are no control knobs to collect food debris. The surface is prefectly smooth and the controls are just touch sensitive areas on the surface. It should make it very easy to keep clean.


 
I like our ceramic cooktop too.  My wife hates it because it shows off all the crud that now has to be cleaned off after each use.  I think she like the old elements where that crud just fell down below and she could pretend it wasn't there.  Can you guess which one of us is the "clean freak"?  Can you guess who used to spend tons of time cleaning the crud out from below the old elements?  Can you guess who bought the new stove?  It's all the same person.


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## Melensdad

PBinWA said:
			
		

> I like our ceramic cooktop too.  My wife hates it because it shows off all the crud that now has to be cleaned off after each use. I think she like the old elements where that crud just fell down below and she could pretend it wasn't there.



Our old unit was far more industrial or commerical looking and it was a nightmare to keep clean.  The old top was modular and you could move around the burners, pull them out and put in a grill or a griddle, or even change the burner size, it was ideal for a gourmet chef.  But it was a PITA to keep clean.  When we decided to replace the kitchen counter tops the cooktop became an issue.  I wanted the old unit tossed out, the lovely Mrs_B wanted to keep it.  But about 10 minutes of playing with the new top, she already likes it even if she looses the 'commercial' look and flexibility of the old cooktop.  I'm glad the old one is gone.  It was much larger (wider side to side and it protruded out the front too) and had 5 burners.  The new top has 5 burners, takes up less space and is easier to clean.   I know the trend is to build 'gourmet-style' kitchens with commercial style equipment, but I can tell you that I'm glad we got rid of that big commercial style top!


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## DaveNay

B_Skurka said:
			
		

> Our old unit was far more industrial or commerical looking and it was a nightmare to keep clean.  The old top was modular and you could move around the burners, pull them out and put in a grill or a griddle, or even change the burner size, it was ideal for a gourmet chef.  But it was a PITA to keep clean.  When we decided to replace the kitchen counter tops the cooktop became an issue.  I wanted the old unit tossed out, the lovely Mrs_B wanted to keep it.  But about 10 minutes of playing with the new top, she already likes it even if she looses the 'commercial' look and flexibility of the old cooktop.  I'm glad the old one is gone.  It was much larger (wider side to side and it protruded out the front too) and had 5 burners.  The new top has 5 burners, takes up less space and is easier to clean.   I know the trend is to build 'gourmet-style' kitchens with commercial style equipment, but I can tell you that I'm glad we got rid of that big commercial style top!



You wouldn't still happen to have that stove would you?  I found that my stove is too small for holiday cooking, and we have the extra width available where someone took out a wide stove and put in an average width one.

_edit:_ Was that a full stove with oven, or just a top?


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## Melensdad

DaveNay said:
			
		

> You wouldn't still happen to have that stove would you?  I found that my stove is too small for holiday cooking, and we have the extra width available where someone took out a wide stove and put in an average width one.
> 
> _edit:_ Was that a full stove with oven, or just a top?




Nope, I gave it away to the guy who is remodeling my office and he's done some work on my house (_gave hime the old sink/faucet too_).  But it was only a cooktop, we have a built in double oven because the lovely Mrs_B likes to bake.  Sometimes I regret building a 'normal size' kitchen because when she gets into holiday/party cooking mode, we could use 4 ovens and 2 dishwashers!!!


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## bczoom

Bob,

Did your new unit come with a bunch of warnings about care of the cooktop?

In particular, make sure sugar and foil don't get on the burners.

Watch out for abrasive cleaners as well.


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## Melensdad

Yup, lots of warnings of what not to do, how to clean it in the event you didn't heed the warnings, and it came with a special cleaner too.


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## Doc

What's her name?  (the special cleaner)


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## Big Dog

B_Skurka said:
			
		

> Yup, lots of warnings of what not to do, how to clean it in the event you didn't heed the warnings, and it came with a special cleaner too.



Bob you better mind all the warnings! We got cleaner too but it didn't help. I hate ours and it's a mess now. I can't wait until we get gas to the house from the well. I buying a gas range ASA gas is available.


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## bczoom

Big Dog said:
			
		

> We got cleaner too but it didn't help. I hate ours and it's a mess now.


Well, there's your issue.  Quit cooking with the darn thing.  That's what we do and have had no problems.  
Also, ours is a black top which seems to help.  The white (or light colored ones) show everything.


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## Dargo

Sweet!  My daughter would like your place, she has most of her stuff painted green as well. 

When I bought my wife a cooktop like that, it was because I got a deal on it.  Literally, it had fallen off of the truck.   It was damaged quite a bit, but not where you would see it installed.  At the time, it was the most modern available but it isn't nearly as fancy as yours.  Anyway, we have not had a single issue with it since it was installed in '92.

I don't know what Mrs. Dargo uses to clean it with, but we've never had any sticking or staining issue ever.  As a matter of fact, I just now had an idea.  I wonder if whatever she uses on that cooktop will work on the glass in my woodburner?  Seriously.  I can't get some of the stuff off of the inside of the glass and I like to see the fire.  Heck, it has lots of glass.  That's one of it's better features.  I'm off to find out...thanks for the idea!


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## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

We have a white one.  We use CeramBryte to clean it on a day to day basis.  It works best when you let it sit on the crud for a few minutes and soak in.  I use a flat razorblade paint scraper to take care of the bad stuff.  Had ours for three years now and it still looks good.  Only one small scuff/scratch where my wife tried to use steel wool on it (even though I told her not too).


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## bczoom

Dargo said:
			
		

> I wonder if whatever she uses on that cooktop will work on the glass in my woodburner?  Seriously.  I can't get some of the stuff off of the inside of the glass and I like to see the fire.


Dargo,

There's a woodstove glass cleaner available.  I went to look for the brand but can't find the bottle.

The best thing I've found for cleaning the glass is to use a razor/utility knife.  The kind with the square blade used to scrape stickers off windshields.  When the glass is warm/hot, everything comes right off.  I've never had any scratching or marks.  Obviously, wear your fire gloves if it's hot...


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## BoneheadNW

Dargo said:
			
		

> As a matter of fact, I just now had an idea.  I wonder if whatever she uses on that cooktop will work on the glass in my woodburner?  Seriously.  I can't get some of the stuff off of the inside of the glass and I like to see the fire.  Heck, it has lots of glass.  That's one of it's better features.  I'm off to find out...thanks for the idea!


Dargo- Here is what you do.  Take a page of newspaper and wad it up.  Dip it in water to get it fairly wet, then dip it in some of the (cool) ash on the bottom of the fireplace.  Wipe the inside of the glass, discard the newspaper (duh), and wipe the residue off with a wet towel.  I really works well!  No fumes, no expensive cleaner, just left over ash and old newspaper.
Bonehead
P.S. Clean when the firplace is cool (another duh)


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## Melensdad

*Here is an update . . . *

The lovely Mrs_B wanted to put up some wainscotting (sp?) but didn't want the normal beadboard.  She wanted cherry.  We have cherry cabinets so she wanted everything to match.  Damn, cherry is expensive.  

So here is the start of the project.  Some before and after photos.  This is the 1st section that is completed, there is A LOT MORE to go.  The first photo is the BEFORE shot, the other two are AFTER pictures.

And yes, I will be changing out all the outlets, covers, etc to a darker color after everything else is done.


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## DaveNay

B_Skurka said:
			
		

> Here is an update . . .



Beautiful!  I absolutely love the look of paneled wainscotting.


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## Melensdad

A little more . . . The corner of the room with the cabinet in place before the wood is in place followed by 2 shots of the corner in progress.


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## buckle97

Your kitchen is looking good.  I love Cherry; my wife on the other hand    .


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## Spiffy1

Sure nice to see other people's projects skyrocket in price to meet the expectations of their fairer half!  

That sure is beautiful though, Bob.


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## Melensdad

The only thing I worry about at this point is that the kitchen will be very dark when all the wood is up.  There are 6 sheets of 1/4" by 4'x8' cherry plywood that will be going into this room.  The panels in the photos so far are the easy ones, they are roughly 40" tall by 24" wide.  But these will also be fitted in between the counter top and the wall cabinets in the kitchen area and I suspect that our energy bills will go up as the darker walls will cause us to use the lights far more often, even in the daytime hours.  That is just a guess, but he lovely Mrs_B wants cherry so she gets cherry.

We decided not to extend the panels into the adjacent hallway, however, now that it is going up, I expect that there will another project coming right on the heels of this one.

There are lots of little things to finish up first.  All the existing trim had to be taken off and a 1/4" routed out of it to 'fit' the panels into, so all the nail holes have to be filled.  I've already decided that the trim around the windows in the kitchen area will be taken off (again) but replaced with newly finished wood.  The old wood is showing some wear and age and it is very visible over the sink so that will have to be stained up, routed, cut, installed. . .


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## bczoom

B_Skurka said:
			
		

> The only thing I worry about at this point is that the kitchen will be very dark when all the wood is up.


I can't see the entire picture but I don't think you'll have an issue since you have the glass door and at least 1 window (that's all I can see in the pics).

I have wainscoating as well as a wood ceiling, cabinets, venetion blinds... and it's not too bad.


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## Melensdad

This is the last of the major wall sections so the work will begin to slow considerably from this point forward.  One thing I did was space the vertical stiles at what I thought were visually the best places as opposed to sticking with a specific spacing.  For example the panels in this area are roughly 28" wide instead of 24" because if I would have stuck with 24" panels it would have forced me to make one very narrow panel along the longer of the two walls.  I just like the look of this better.  So the panel widths vary slighty from wall to wall.


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## Ice Queen

Just thought you might like to see my kitchen!


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## Dargo

Ugh...thanks for reminding me.  I promised my wife that I'd replace our two front doors this summer.  One is still the light blue primer color and it's been there for 13 years.    At least I painted the other about 10 years ago.  When I built the house I was forced to save money in some areas but couldn't in others.  For example, I used cheap steel entry doors figuring that they could be replaced later.  However, I did have to dig the basement when I built the house.  It would have been rather expensive to add later.

We made it for about 10 years without our porch.  If you opened any back door for the first 10 years, there was just a 4' drop to the ground.  I guess it was about 5 years ago that I finally got the wrap around, country style, porch installed.  It is about 1500 sq ft and took almost 9000 brick and 63 yards of concrete to build.  That doesn't include the huge expense for the vinyl railing and the roof which includes 16 ceiling fans, intercom system, 16 recessed lights, and Polk speaker system.  Most people couldn't understand why it took me nearly a full year to build my porch.

Well, now that Bob has brought this post up again, I see I need to make good on two new front entry doors.  I've waivered between solid wood or a high quality fiberglass stained to look like wood.  When I finish that, I need to put up crown molding in the family room...

It never ends.

Thanks Bob   


Oh yeah, nice kitchen.  Since I personally did all of our tile work, hardwood floors, and stone floors, I wanted to comment that I like your ceramic tile floor and the pattern.  I actually enjoy doing that work.  It just takes so long and is so hard on the knees and back.


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## Melensdad

Anita . . . the only thing I see missing from your kitchen is a stack of "carry out" menus from the local restaurants.  In my other house we tore out the kitchen and lived on carry out food.  We eventually got pretty inventive with "cooking" in a microwave oven. 

Dargo . . . I have a wood/glass front door and you are welcome to come get it.  Mine is oak.  It is the only oak in our house other than a couple threashold pieces.  As you can see from the kitchen we used cherry.  Every cabinet in the house is cherry as are all the fireplace mantels, surrounds.  We used poplar for all the other trim.  So the grain pattern of the oak just doesn't look right.  I've been considering making my own front door but just never got around to it.  At some point I will either do it or buy a replacement just because we don't like the look.  Its 11 years old and has held up very well, although it will need some varnish touch up within the next year.

The kitchen is going up very quickly.  But there was a lot of prep work before these panels started going up. All the trim had to come off and a dado was cut on the back side to accept the panels.  All the new trim was obviously done the same way, so these pictures simply show it being assembled on the wall.

Today starts all the hard stuff.  In the kitchen, between the counter tops and the wall cabinets there will be panels set into place.  That will require removing some lights and making a lot of electrical cut outs, in addition to working in tight spaces. 

Here is a photo of the last of the wall panel before moving the work into the kitchen.  The adjacent trim panel is missing and a trim piece from the top rail too, but it will be done in a few minutes.


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## Dargo

Okay, first off, what's with your chin up bar being about 3" off the ground in the doorway?  How are you going to get a workout like that?!

Is your oak door exposed to sunlight and the elements?  I'm trying to figure if a actual oak door would last in our main entrance.  Our porch extends 13' out over the door and I also have a storm door over it, so whatever I use likely won't get too much exposure, but it will get some direct sunlight during certain hours of the day.  Since most all of our interior wood is oak, I figured that oak would go well with what we have.  I'm still having sticker shock on what a nice 36" oak door with any glass in them costs.  I can probably put the addition on my barn I want for the same price these two doors look like they are going to cost me.


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## Melensdad

OK, taking a break, got the window trim off the wall, removed some outlet covers, loosened the under cabinet lights, etc.

The "_chin up bar_" is actually the bottom brace of a "dog gate" that keeps the little yappy dog out of the dining room.  

As for the door, it is exposed to the morning sun.  But the porch roof probaby extends 10' out from the front wall of the house so the door gets quite a bit of protection from the sun.  I do *NOT* have a storm door for additional protection. The door also faces east so it is protected from west prevailing winds and when DaveNay farts, burps and spits up his beer, all that comes at the west wall of the house along with any rain or snow storms.  The wood door has been up for 11.5 years and it was re-varnished about 5 years ago.


_EDIT 10:00am:  Today may be a long day!_

Its almost 10 am and this is as far as I've gotten. 

In the BEFORE photo you can see the window trim is not the same color as the new trim.  The new trim is installed above the tile border at the bottom edge of the wall where the wall and the countertop meet.  That new trim is a dado cut to accept the cherry panels.  So the old window trim had to come off and new window trim had to be installed so now the trim and the panels match the cabinets.
_
EDIT AGAIN ~ NOON_ . . . PICTURE #3 is the corner, finally finished.  The electrical cutouts caused some problems, but the main issue was the under cabinet lighting.  Hopefully the rest of the kitchen will go smoother than this did.


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## Melensdad

Going much faster now.


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## Melensdad

The last BEFORE and AFTER.

There are still lots of little things to finish up but the bulk of the project is done.  I think the room feels much 'warmer' with all the wood added, also, as the room is about 30' long, the wood wainscotting on the walls in the dinette side of the room seems to balance out the wood in the kitchen and helps to unify the look of the whole room.  

It is probably a lot more authentic this way too.  The house was designed in 1912 so it is very likely that it would have had wood details similar to this???


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## Dargo

I don't recall what counter top you opted to buy.  Is it quartz or granite?  It looks a lot like what I have in my pool house.  Mine is quartz and I really like it.  After I recover from putting up two new doors, I'll likely change her counters in the kitchen to the much more durable quartz or possibly granite.


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## Melensdad

Quartz.  I believe the brand was Silestone.  We looked at granite.  And my brother has it.  I'm glad we have quartz.  Granite, IMHO looks a little bit better, but the seams are not as tight, the edges can chip, and the surface can stain.  The higher priced Quartz is in line with most granites.  So costs are reasonably similar unless you go into the exotic granites.  Some of the smaller aggregate quartz is lower priced.


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## Junkman

Why not a wood panel on the dishwasher door or am I not supposed to ask that question....


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## Melensdad

Because the lovley Mrs_B said she likes the SS/black look for appliances.  I'm not going to argue with HER, but if YOU want to, feel free!


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## Junkman

Nope.......... I have the same problem.  The original dishwasher had a wood panel insert, but the replacement came with a black panel.  I have the wood panels for the new dishwasher, but the wife doesn't want them.  It is the _only_ appliance in the kitchen that has provisions for a wood panel that doesn't have a wood panel.  Arguing with women is like talking to a wall.... you can do it, but it won't get you anywhere.....


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## Melensdad

*DAMN ELECTRICIANS!!!*

I turned off every breaker that was marked KITCHEN or even remotely close to the kitchen and went to replace all the switches, sockets and GFIs in the kitchen with dark brown units.  I know enough about electricity to change outlets and swtiches while they are still 'hot' and have done that many times, but I've never changed a GFI hot until today.  And I didn't know it was hot until I shocked the hell out of myself.  Its been 20 minutes and my left hand is still tingling!  Every other outlet had something plugged into it, so when I went up to replace things, I unplugged all the appliances, radios, etc and each thing was inoperable.  SO I JUST ASSUMED that the one GFI was obviously dead too.  BAD ASSUMPTION.  For some odd reason, this one GFI is on the same circuit as the refrigerator, and they are not even close to each other or on the same wall.


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## OhioTC18 RIP

:StickOutT :StickOutT  Hee Hee Those bastards are like that


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## Melensdad

OhioTC18 said:
			
		

> :StickOutT :StickOutT  Hee Hee Those bastards are like that


I'm now done with the switches/recepticals and GFIs in the kitchen.  All have been changed over to brown from the original ivory, but until the switchplate covers arrive the covers are still the original ivory.  It looks pretty bad!  But hopefully not for long.

I did have a little trouble with a 3-way light switch, I changed the switch but it didn't work.  Upon further examination, I pulled the wires a bit and found one was broken and apparently had been taped together with masking tape 

Out to the garage to get the right stuff, fixed it.  *DAMN ELECTRICIANS*


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## OhioTC18 RIP

B_Skurka said:
			
		

> I'm now done with the switches/recepticals and GFIs in the kitchen.  All have been changed over to brown from the original ivory, but until the switchplate covers arrive the covers are still the original ivory.  It looks pretty bad!  But hopefully not for long.
> 
> I did have a little trouble with a 3-way light switch, I changed the switch but it didn't work.  Upon further examination, I pulled the wires a bit and found one was broken and apparently had been taped together with masking tape
> 
> Out to the garage to get the right stuff, fixed it.  *DAMN ELECTRICIANS*


Oh I see...the house is how old?? And you've owned it from day one? And you are certain that only an *electrician* has worked on it?


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## Melensdad

The house is 11 years old, a large electrical contractor did the work for me.  I know they had at least 1 apprentice on the job, but I know the supervisor who was here.  I think something slipped past him.


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## Ice Queen

I have been away at a rally for the weekend and have only just returned, so have missed part of your kitchen saga.  In reply to your comment on the 'stack of take-away menus' - you'de be lucky!  I live out in the sticks and the nearest fish and chip shop, our local 'take-away' is at least three miles away - so I though I would show you my cooking arrangements.  One microwave and one kettle on the lounge floor in case you can't make it out in the rather dark picture


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## Melensdad

Here is a bit of an update.  

Prior to installing the wood in the kitchen area, I installed a tile backsplash and tile border.  But as I needed the grout to fill in the gap between the new wood trim and the tile I had to leave the tile un-grouted until after the wood was installed. 

The grout is now in place!  
Photo one shows the tile border
Photo two shows the tile taped off so grout cannot fill the design
Photo three shows the grout filled in over the tiles​


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## beds

Those look like some nice tiles, Bob! Let's see some "after" pictures! 

Are you grouting the joint between the counter and the backsplash? I think that's supposed to be caulked and not grouted as it will shift and crack the grout.


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## Melensdad

Beds, I looked in my camera phone and don't have the AFTER photos?!?  Not sure what I did, but they are not on the memory card.  So I'll have to reshoot those photos.

As for the grout, this is a mildly flexible grout that should work fine for the purpose.  The countertop, being quarts, should not have any flex or movement to it, and I'm hoping the wall doesn't move either!  I used the recommended grout for the tile, and explained exactly what I was doing with it when it was purchased.

As for the tiles, I bought them from a small pottery in Ohio (Kreuger Pottery) that specializes in Frank Lloyd Wright style works.  You can order them in a couple of different clay choices and they hand cast them and fire them to order.  The artist in residence at the pottery is Vic Drennen.  They were actually a challenge to work with because they were very irregular in size and shape.  Dennis Kreuger is very easy to deal with for custom requests.

Below are individual images of 3 of the tiles we used.  I also had some plain tiles custom cast to fill in so the design over the cooktop was not too "busy" visually they break up the pattern nicely.  In total I think we used 5 different tiles?


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## Junkman

B_Skurka said:
			
		

> ....... The countertop, being quarts, .........



How many quarts did it take to make the counter top?????  Personally, I would have used _*quartz*_....


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## Melensdad

Junkman said:
			
		

> How many quarts did it take to make the counter top?????  Personally, I would have used _*quartz*_....


Oh, OK Gatorboy, er, I mean Junk.   Sorry for the transgression.  If only I could control my fingers and make them work in conjuntion with my mind, then I would be perfect just like you.

The countertops are quart*z*, the tiles are glazed clay, the wood trim is cherry, and the toilet is flushed after every use.


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## Junkman

B_Skurka said:
			
		

> Oh, OK Gatorboy, er, I mean Junk.   Sorry for the transgression.  If only I could control my fingers and make them work in conjuntion (*conjunction* ) with my mind, then I would be perfect just like you.
> 
> The countertops (*counter tops* )  are quart*z*, the tiles are glazed clay, the wood trim is cherry, and the toilet is flushed after every use.



Next, will you be blaming me for driving off Working Woman?????? You are in perfect control of your fingers, and they do work in conjunction with your mind, but your mind doesn't differentiate between the differences in the English language of words that when spoken, sound the same, or similar, but are spelled differently in the written text.  That is why the English language is one of the hardest to learn as a second language.  Some words are spelled the same, but pronounced differently depending on the meaning.  Lead is a perfect example of a word with different pronunciations and meanings.


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## DaveNay

Junkman said:
			
		

> How many quarts did it take to make the counter top?????  Personally, I would have used _*quartz*_....



Arrrggggggirate:  And if'n ya' 'ad jes one maaar of them quarts o' quartz, ye'd be hav'n a full gallon ye would.


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## Melensdad

beds said:
			
		

> Those look like some nice tiles, Bob! Let's see some "after" pictures!


 Here is the backsplash for the cooktop.  I still have to apply some silicone sealer to it because the tile and the grout are both porous.  I have to let the grout cure for about a month before I apply the sealer.

On the right side of the photo you can see one of the outlets. (_sorry about the cameraphone photo, not really good at the detail or color rendition_)  I opted not to buy the bronze switchplate covers and instead used mottled slate.  While the slate does not match the tile on the wall, it does perfectly match the slate inlay on the floors.  So the switchplates do a nice job of unifying the room visually. . .at least I think they do.

As for the kitchen project, as far as I am concerned it is done


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## BoneheadNW

Bob, I hate to tell you this but I think those tiles in the backsplash are chinese charactors and you have spelled up your ****!  Now, if you just were to rearrange them you could spell Kioti......... 
Bonehead


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## Melensdad

BoneheadNW said:
			
		

> Bob, I hate to tell you this but I think those tiles in the backsplash are chinese charactors and you have spelled up your ****!  Now, if you just were to rearrange them you could spell Kioti.........
> Bonehead


Like I said:


			
				B_Skurka said:
			
		

> As for the kitchen project, *as far as I am concerned it is done*


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## beds

Good looking countertop, Bob!


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## jakki

Great Kitchen Mr. B!!  Now, looking at the backsplash I have to say, you have more Opus in you than you realize...is the symbology intentional?


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## Melensdad

jakki said:
			
		

> Great Kitchen Mr. B!!  Now, looking at the backsplash I have to say, you have more Opus in you than you realize...is the symbology intentional?


I think you may have asked & answered the question.


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## Mith

Bob, looks real nice. I like the fancy materials you used.

The only thing I see, why couldnt you put the sink so you can look out of the window while you wash up? Looks like its right infront of the pillar.


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## Melensdad

Mith said:
			
		

> Bob, looks real nice. I like the fancy materials you used.
> 
> The only thing I see, why couldnt you put the sink so you can look out of the window while you wash up? Looks like its right infront of the pillar.


 The house was designed in 1912, when we layed out the kitchen it was simply not conducive to the work flow to have the sink moved off to either side because it made for too long of reaches to opitimize the space.  We contemplated adding a middle window, but that was not original the house design and we didn't want to alter that part either. 

But in our whole house there are really no good views to the outside.  We have no traditional picture window to look out at the land, despite the fact that we have great views.  Our house is perched about 3/4 of the way up a ridgeline, the views to our west are great because of elevation of the house above the lower land (everything to our west for about 1000 miles is at a lower elevation).  There are 28 windows facing the west.  In the living room there are 15 total windows, 10 face west.  But there is no 'view' of the western landscape unless you walk up to one of the windows and look out.  All of the windows in the house (except in our dining room) are like you see in the kitchen, that being that they are spaced apart from each other by roughly 24 to 30" of wall space.  It provides for a lot of light, it provides for a wonderful feeling that the house is part of the woods and the land, but it does not provide for the thought that you 'overlook' the land.  Many people who come to the house fall in love with the rooms and the tranquility they provide.  It is a very restful home that seems to instill a feeling of serenity into those who gather there.  Its not as big as many, its not fancy by most people's standards of "fancy."  What it is is a design that fits very nicely with the nature around it.  Our priest, an obviously spiritual man, loves to sit in the living room.  I admit it is also my favorite room.  From the living room you can see up into the open foyer that climbs about 22' above the floor of the living room, you can see down to the lower level of the foyer that drops a half flight below the living room floor.  From every direction you can see sky and trees.  Some of the walls are painted with bamboo and dogwood murals to mimic the dogwoods and other plants that surround the house, and "silk" trees that climb from the lower level up through the center of the foyer.  There are trees planted to cast shadows through a few windows to project their leaf patterns onto adjacent walls.  

So from the standpoint of viewing outside, it is a VERY UNTRADITIONAL home.  But then again, most 'prairie' style homes are similar in how they use walls, light, and spaces to work in harmony with the surrounding area rather than to impose themselves upon it.

The original home design sighted it in a very similar setting, part way up a ridge so it did not dominate the site, overlooking a creek and small valley.  While the home was never built by the architect, we took his plans long after his death and tried to hold reasonably true to his designs.  From some angles of approach you see very little of the house, often only the upper level or the rooflines.  The 'prairie' school of architecture was one that tended to site homes so they were not perched on top of things, but rather were designed to work within the layout of the surroundings.


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## Melensdad

B_Skurka said:
			
		

> *DAMN ELECTRICIANS!!!*
> 
> I turned off every breaker that was marked KITCHEN or even remotely close to the kitchen and went to replace all the switches, sockets and GFIs in the kitchen with dark brown units.  I know enough about electricity to change outlets and swtiches while they are still 'hot' and have done that many times, but I've never changed a GFI hot until today.  And I didn't know it was hot until I shocked the hell out of myself.  Its been 20 minutes and my left hand is still tingling!  Every other outlet had something plugged into it, so when I went up to replace things, I unplugged all the appliances, radios, etc and each thing was inoperable.  SO I JUST ASSUMED that the one GFI was obviously dead too.  BAD ASSUMPTION.  For some odd reason, this one GFI is on the same circuit as the refrigerator, and they are not even close to each other or on the same wall.





			
				OhioTC18 said:
			
		

> :StickOutT :StickOutT  Hee Hee Those bastards are like that


*DAMN ELECTRICIANS - AGAIN!!!*

Two months have passed since I shocked the heck out of myself so I figured I would try again today.  Not to shock myself but to finish the kitchen by replacing 1 GFI and 1 20amp Appliance switch.  Should be simple.  So after my last fiasco, I asked my daughter to stand next to the sink with the water running and flip the garbage disposal switch on-and-off when I flipped the breakers.  She did.  All went well.  I again assumed I had cut the power.  Oh how wrong I was.    I did manage to cut the power to the switch, but there was still power to the GFI even though both were in the same box.  I sure would not have figured that one out, at least not without grabbing it and running 20amps of power up my left arm, screaming and falling backwards off the kitchen counter and onto the hard tile floor. 

Damn arm still tingles and its an hour after the incident.

But it is official now, the kitchen is completed.  The wiring is done.  The switches are all the correct color.  The recepticals are all the correct color.  

It is amazing how fast you can change the color of a receptical with a can a spray paint


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## nikanone

I am looking to do my bathroom but want to avoid the high margin that stores charge you when they do the whole thing themselves - I know you can save 30-40% if you co-ordinate yourself but this is a nightmare when we are both working, is there anyone out there independent of a store that can help co-ordinate the whole thing. Does anyone have any good tips?


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## Melensdad

I don't know that you will see a 30-40% savings by doing the coordinating of the sub-contractors.  The costs come from 1) Labor and 2) Materials.  It is easier to control the costs of the materials than the costs of the labor.  

For labor you will spend time getting multiple bids and if you are talking about things like tile work, then ask for labor only prices and ask what the labor includes.  Then you have to coordinate things and you need to make sure your work is done in the correct sequence (electrical and plumbing can be done simultaneously, or nearly so, but tile work comes after those 2 sub-contractors).

Also ask for a "cash" price.  Even if you are talking out a home equity loan to pay for  the remodeling, you can still pay 'cash' and with many of the sub-contractors if you pay them in cash green money instead of writing a check, they will give you a discount.

Also, if you are able, some sub-contractors will give you an additional discount if you clean up the debris every day, dispose of the trash yourself, etc.  It saves them from having to sweep up, and it saves them from having to haul it off.


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## Bobcat

You _do_ see this coming, don't you?


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## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Bobcat said:


> You _do_ see this coming, don't you?


 
I've been waiting for it too.  Bob likes to debate with bots.


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## Melensdad

PBinWA said:


> I've been waiting for it too.  Bob likes to debate with bots.



Actually in my time here as a moderator I've been fooled by some posts that I thought were spam-bots but ended up being real people.  I give the benefit of the doubt if there are no links in the first post.  In this case there has been no followup for a couple days.  Might well be a person, could be a bot on delay mode?


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## Bobcat

They slipped in a sig change when you weren't looking. 


The last batch of spam posters have come in with posts that immediately set the font to Arial.


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## XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Bobcat said:


> They slipped in a sig change when you weren't looking.
> 
> 
> The last batch of spam posters have come in with posts that immediately set the font to Arial.


 

I am shocked!  Shocked I tell you!  How could this happen?


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