# Bombardier ring and pinion



## pixie

I'm on a mission. I need a ring and pinion for my mid 50's J5 Bombardier.
I believe that Muskegs had the same differential. I know of two places to get it but I'm sure that it was used in some other type of machine and it might cost less if it was , say, a Massey Ferguson or Case part.
So, I'm asking for suggestions for a tractor dealer that can look things up by part number and not the brand. Or maybe you know of a piece of equipment with a similar differential.

The numbers on the ring say "jii  made in usa 1 62 M493-C " There is a funny symbol like a verticle dogbone at the beginning of the numbers.

Thanks for any help


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## King of Obsolete

i'll ask my buddy, he has just finished his j5. note he widen the cab so the wife and kids can go along too, LOL

thansk


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## mtntopper

Pixie,
Call Brad at Minnesota Outdoor Sport Specialties. I think he may have several used gear units available. He recently had a bunch of sidewalk plows and other Bombardier machines to part out or sell which may use the same ring and pinion. Good luck, hope this helps....

Brad's Phone Number: 218-828-7876
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Brainerd, Mn. 56401[/FONT]


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## pixie

King o O, That J5 sure looks warm and cozy.... most importantly, it's RUNNING !!!! Mine was running when it got here and things have gone downhill from there ..... 

Thanks, mtntopper. Brad was one of the people I was sure would have one.

Between the bad ring/pinion and the banged up and leaky housing I'm pretty discouraged. I know about an old ag sprayer with hydraulic drive for sale and I'm enjoying the fantasy of putting the pump and drives in this machine. It would surely cost more and probably be more work but it's fun to think about


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## King of Obsolete

pixie, my buddy darcy banged his head a few time on the J5 this past summer. bolt it together and take it for a test drive then inbolt it and fix it. he had a very hard time getting parts in canada. lots of phone calls but he got it done. he did everything on it with no budget (he doesn't have a full time job, just seasonally work) 
the heater is from a bus and it has 3 setting on it. OFF, HOT and HOTTER, LOL

here are some more pictures to tease you. also will be passing brad's number around to the out J5 boys up here. 


thansk


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## pixie

You are a wicked tease, King o O !!!! Not just the running J5 but the snow  and to top it all off, the J5 is my favorite color !!

I got some more numbers off a rusty one. 35 6 I think this is the # of teeth on the ring and pinion which makes it a 5.83 to 1 ratio. There were a bunch more #s on that one. The only # they have in common is M493C


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## J5 Bombardier

Hi Pixie
              Sidewalk plows (SW48) seem to be the most plentiful Bombardier around for suspension and diff parts. The dealers up here are  stripping them down , a used diff assembly was around $2000.00 this summer.
                Just how bad are the gears ? , Teeth broken off or pitting from condensation. Usually the pinion is the one to chip and  fail out of the two, the matched set rule doesn't need to apply to these old slow machines if only one of them needs replacing. The Muskeg I'm restoring has 9 teeth on the pinion so there are a couple of different ratios . Smile, it will be great when finished !             J5 Bombardier


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## jaybe_2

Pixie I have 2 at my shop RIGHT HERE IN NH. They are out of my groomer,I put in a reman. One is junk and just for parts the other is complete.


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## pixie

Jaybe2, I sent you a message 

Thanks for the encouragement, J5 . The outside cornors of the ring are chipped and there is some pitting. If I'm going to take it apart enough to replace the pinion bearings , which is what it really needs, then I might as well put a good ring set in. 

I haven't cut it out of the machine yet.... I'm dreading that. I'm also dreading cutting the side tub 1/4" plate enough to weld in a piece of metal to hold the oil in  Might have to get a real welder person to do that !!!


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## Eric L

pixie said:
			
		

> The outside cornors of the ring are chipped and there is some pitting. If I'm going to take it apart enough to replace the pinion bearings , which is what it really needs, then I might as well put a good ring set in.



  I bet it'll be fine...ask me how I know...



			
				pixie said:
			
		

> I haven't cut it out of the machine yet.... I'm dreading that. I'm also dreading cutting the side tub 1/4" plate enough to weld in a piece of metal to hold the oil in  Might have to get a real welder person to do that !!!



Huh?   You're telling me an O/A torch is required to rebuild the rear diff...  Something I'm not getting here...

Eric


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## mbsieg

Eric L said:
			
		

> I bet it'll be fine...ask me how I know...
> 
> 
> 
> Huh?   You're telling me an O/A torch is required to rebuild the rear diff...  Something I'm not getting here...
> 
> Eric


I would like to know!!!!!!


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## pixie

Check out the first picture. The diff is mounted to the verticle plate at the top left. It's welded in at the cornors !!!

I'll get you a close up tomorrow.

I was going to cut it with an abrasive wheel.

Maybe I'll use this gear set again. I still need another one for the second J5 ...


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## Eric L

While it may be welded in... I"m not understanding why it needs to come out for rebuild...unless its just the lesser of two evils (easier to cut it out than to deal with access issues). 

Edit: is the carrier welded in?



			
				mbsieg said:
			
		

> I would like to know!!!!!



I've torn down plenty of diffs with damage that was not known 'till opened up, and I've put a few together in very much less than perfect shape with no ill results, especially for low speed off road use. My main concern would be why its got chipped teath...probably due to the bearings being bad as Pixie stated. the tough part is a person would probably never get a good pattern on that used set of gears, having been run with bad bearings like that. Diff was probably full of water at one time. Once again, not the end of the world, just give it some clearance and "it'll be fine"... when in doubt, remember "loose is fast"

BUT... since its getting torn down, there is nothing wrong with installing good "new" parts, as long as its not cost prohibitive.

 

Eric


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## pixie

Yes, it's easier to cut out than deal with access. There is not enough room to pull the pinion shaft with the gears etc. in there. And, yes, it's the carrier that's welded in. I realize that it's possible to unbolt the gears from the carrier but it's not easy and if I was going to have someone else do the rebuild ( yes... I'm intimidated by this !! ) having the unit portable is an advantage.

Thanks for the comments about reusing damaged gears. I don't know much about this stuff and real world experience is very helpful. I'll consider the choices. Mostly, I don't want to do this again !!!!

I'll put up some pictures this evening.


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## pixie

Here's a couple of pictures. One shows the outside shape of the housing and the other is a removed differential. 
It looks like this machine had  a 'crash' at sometime or a problem with sucking debris into the track. It IS a forestry machine and was used as that so it's not surprising to see this damage. I was just hoping it leaked less badly


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## King of Obsolete

good pictures and you have the rust on only 1/2 a gear. i think that is very common with water getting in to the compartment.

there has to be a farm machine that uses this diff, the machine was made in quebec out of common parts and pieces. with the use of the BBs hopefully we can find a source of cheap parts. 

thansk


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## Eric L

I'm not seeing how the oil stays in there and how water stays out...doesn't look like they're sealed very well.

​
Eric


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## King of Obsolete

water ususally gets in around the top cover. i have yet to see a diff that is not rusted up. 

thansk


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## J5 Bombardier

Pixie:
         Hold the torch and zip-cut ! The diff carrier assembly pulls out easy enough, side caps backed off  and lift it out  with a chain block. Should be able to see that leak from the inside.  J5 Bombardier


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## Eric L

you sure thats factory?...looks like somthing a farmboy would whip up in metal shop class.. I'm questioning the precision of that weldment.


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## J5 Bombardier

Not  so bad  for 40 plus years ago, actually I think Bombardier was a farmer. Must have paid off though, because now his little backwoods company sells subway cars and jets to the states.: 
                                                     J5 Bombardier


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## pixie

Thanks, J5. I am still on the fence about which way to do it. Looks like it will be a pain getting the pinion bearing cups out with the carrier still in the machine ??? Then when the gears are back in, I would have to adjust the backlash myself. That would be less intimidating with a new gear set......
There are several leaks about an inch forward of the verticle part of the carrier. 

The front of the machine isn't very easy to work around.


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## BigAl RIP

Wow ! You certainly are not afraid to tear into a piece of equiptment . Where were you when I torn down and rebuilt my JD 450 crawler ???


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## King of Obsolete

wow is that hard to work on, better work out then in the gym, LOL

any more numbers found or leads??????

thansk


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## King of Obsolete

this is a canadian website just started and it is for the bombardiers with the skis on the front, tracks on the back. these guys might be able to help since some parts are interchangable.

http://www.northerntracks.com/forum/index.php

thansk


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## King of Obsolete

pixie, try changing a bearing on a d6 9u cat, i could only see a 1/4 of an inch but i got it out using the torch and lots of luck. then press the new bearing back in. it keeps me in shape with all the climbing and lifting heavy stuff.

this cat is 1950 and it spent 3 years under water and i have been using it for 3 years after salvaging, LOL it was not rusted anywhere from the water.

thansk


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## pixie

Al, I have excellent references as a taker-aparter 

Getting things back together doesn't always go as well ......

Just to straighten me out ... the 'carrier' is the whole part that is gears ? What's the thing that is welded in that holds the pinion gear and carrier called   They are all called 'assemblies' in the book ....

I have a couple of new leads but haven't gained any knowledge about them yet.

That looks like a serious project, King o O ! I am sure you are experienced at this !!!!

I only had to cut one bearing off ....


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## 79bombi

Pixie,

I got my ring and pinion from Gordon at Tracked Vehicles Technologies.  It was a Dana and he also suggested putting in new shims which he sold me.  He was very helpful and worked me thru the process.  My bolts backed off thus trashing my ring and pinion.  My gear case slowly got louder until it was too late.


http://www.afmi.ca/






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## pixie

Thanks for the info, 79bombi !

I took the shaft side of the pinion shaft apart today and don't think it was put together right the last time. ( Not the only screw up on this machine ! ) I sent away for a new bearing and we'll see if that takes some of the slop out.

It wasn't making any noise but the ring is chipped on the outside edges. Time will tell 

The machine is going to a real welder next week to have new steel panels put on the sides of the differential housing .


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## J5 Bombardier

Looks Good pixie !
            I never saw that style of brake bands are they two piece ?
                                                                           J5 Bombardier


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## NorthernJ5

Hi Pixie, here are a couple of pics of the diff and its workings. WARNING, these Diffs are timed!!!! Meaning the sunshine and planetary gears have timing dots on them. If not in time correctly it will turn and bind, and in turn will take out axle gears and sunshine gears, basically destroying the whole diff.


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## pixie

Thanks for the excellent exploded view, NorthernJ5  And welcome to this Forum.

My 'manual' is a copy of a copy, and on and on, and is very hard to see. I read somewhere about the timed planetary gears. They look OK and the ring and pinion aren't all that bad. I'm really hoping that replacing the accessable pinion shaft bearing will be enough to keep this rolling for a couple of years.
Of course, "hoping" hasn't gotten me very far yet ....  ......

J5Bombardier, The brake bands on 79bombi's machine do look different....a little more heavy duty, maybe ?

I got a price to reline mine of $275. How's that sound ?


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## J5 Bombardier

Hi Pixie
                    I never had to get my bands relined, you might want to get another price . There isn't  much more than 3 feet of lining in total on both of them plus the rivets. I'm going to call the rebuild shop near work next week and see what they say.
                                      J5 Bombardier


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## harkat34

I find your message very interesting. I a a mechanic in northern Manitoba and we have a J5 Bombardier in the shop that looks like the one you are showing. We are going t fix the differential and pinion in it and I was looking for hints on doing this. If you have any shortcuts on getting the axle out I would appreciate them. 
Bob in The Pas, Manitoba.


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## pixie

Hello, Harkat34 and welcome to this forum !!!

To remove the drive axle, undo all the bolts around the cone shaped support and it pulls right out in one piece.

I took my J5 to a real welder. He has the differential out and has cut the front bogey axle out. Since the rear bogey axle is an inch longer on each side, we plan on making the new front axle the same length. The drive sprocket has a spring in it that allows it to move outward. When reassembled, the tires' centerline will be the sprocket centerline also. 

The new diff housing will be 1/4" plate and be welded to the 5/16" plate that someone in the past added to the tub sides and bottom. The whole diff housing will be replaced.

The diff was to the right.


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## J5 Bombardier

Pixie :
              Easy on the torch or your J5 might look  like this!

                                                          J5 Bombardier


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## pixie

I sure hope mine stays in one piece  

You did a major job, J5Bombardier


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## Bob Cantin

Well, if my memory serves me correct, the early J-5's, and the muskeg tractors (M-5) used 1939 Ford 3-ton crown and pinions in the diffs. In the 60's we bought up several NOS Ford crown and pinions and replaced our damaged units in our Bombardier lease tractors, as the same units from Ford were about 3 times the price---Bob C


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## King of Obsolete

thansk, i like this kind of info, more please if you can????

thansk


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## aulen2002

Found something I thought was odd on my j5.  The 1/4" bottom plate of the Diff extends back past to the front bogey axle.  The floor pan extends past the axle to the diff.  There is a small gap between the two (1/8"?) that is open to the diff & is filled with gear oil.  This is the same area partially cut out here.  It's as if there's a weld missing inside the diff mounting flange.



pixie said:


>



The j5 I bought had a hole drilled under the foot rest, and had a bolt in it.  When I removed the bole to drain some water that had collected out came the oil.  Is this supposed to be this way, or is it an indication of an issue with the diff?


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## MNoutdoors RIP

aulen2002 said:


> Found something I thought was odd on my j5.  The 1/4" bottom plate of the Diff extends back past to the front bogey axle.  The floor pan extends past the axle to the diff.  There is a small gap between the two (1/8"?) that is open to the diff & is filled with gear oil.  This is the same area partially cut out here.  It's as if there's a weld missing inside the diff mounting flange.
> 
> 
> 
> The j5 I bought had a hole drilled under the foot rest, and had a bolt in it.  When I removed the bole to drain some water that had collected out came the oil.  Is this supposed to be this way, or is it an indication of an issue with the diff?




Have never seen that on any of the J-5's we have or ever worked on I think you have a leak.


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## J5 Bombardier

When they put a new skin over the old hull did they end up with a gap between the two hulls  and the old hull is weeping diff oil into the space
                                                           J5 Bombardier


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## aulen2002

J5 Bombardier said:


> When they put a new skin over the old hull did they end up with a gap between the two hulls  and the old hull is weeping diff oil into the space
> J5 Bombardier



I think (essentially).  The heavy outer plate looks original though.  I did have a look at a buddy's parts muskeg last night.  It had a thin diff/hull with two smaller partial 1/4" plates on the front.

My 1/4" plate does appear to have been "beaten down" where I assume the crown gear is (for clearance?)  Possible place for damage.  Guess i'll be pulling the cab and gas tank and having a look. Worst case I plug the holes and have a larger fluid reservoir!


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