# boat dock problem



## Doc

I've used permanent docks for 20+ years.   My dad used them 10 years before that and never have we seen the issue that just came UP this year.

We drive in 4x4's of varying lengths and attach the framing and top to the docks.  Since we are within 3 miles of a big damn the water fluctuation is minimal.  The pool between damns is 45 miles.  30 miles up river from us the water might raise 3 ft and we'll see maybe a 6" rise.  A good spot to be in, usually.

However the water is finally going down from a flood we had this past week.  Water got up to flood stage which means it was 30 ft high 30 miles up river and we were 5 ft higher than normal.  Before the flood we had seen a jumble of trees and trash stuck on a big tree that was under the docks.  No biggie, this happens every year.   But, then the flood came.  With the flood is fast moving water and it normally clears whatever is stuck under the docks.   And it did clear whatever was under the docks again this year but not before raising 5 sections of the docks about 2ft higher than they should be.   (see pics below)

The dilemma, how to get the docks back down to useable heigth?
I'm considering all options.  So far I've thought of:
Getting a group of folks to all jump at the same time and hope to drive the posts back down.
Get a container and put it on the dock and fill with water for weight to help get the docks down.  Water is about 8 pounds a gallon I think ...I can get 55 gallon barrells ...(400pounds) but two guys equal that. 
Put a generator on the docks to help vibrate and then jump and hope the vibration helps the pole go down.

The docks have just become visible. Mud is still drying on them.  Until it drys we will not walk on them.  Plus I had a mud slide on my access road so I need a track hoe to clear the road.  Road will have to be fixed before I can get to docks ...but still looking for ideas on how we might get the docks back like they were.  

1st pic is the docks in 2014
2nd pic is docks yesterday.


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## Galvatron

I would hire a heavy duty Kango (Jack hammer) and try to force them down again.

I could loan you mine but distance is a tab of a issue


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## Doc

Good thought Galvi.  How about a pic of your heavy duty Kango.  (I've been looking for a reason to cross the pond ....    )


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## Galvatron

Mine is a few years old but looks a little like this one....does the job....pretty cheap to hire....you may need one slightly bigger though.


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## Doc

Rental place here has a 60 pound one, with a 20 pound flat foot, it's electric like yours.  rents for 80 bucks a day.   
they also had air powered ones with a diesel generator on a trailer that went with it for 90 a day but they don't have a flat foot attachment for that one.   
Still there is potential for this solution.  Better than my ideas so far.  Thanks Galvi.


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## Galvatron

My only other idea has less technical input


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## Doc

...that could work too.    (Is that Rusty?  Was wondering what he was up to these days?)


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## Galvatron

If it is he has stooped to new depths that even i thought was below him


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## Kane

Trying to drive the 4X4 piles down can be damn near impossible. What you need to do is jet the things down, just like they do on major dock work. 

Rent a decent size water pump. Then reduce the long output hose down to a 1" pipe, about 6' long. You've made a high pressure water jet. Work the jet alongside each pile, lowering each one with minimal weight in increments, a little bit, one by one, until you're back down to grade. 

Confused yet?


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## Doc

Thanks Kane.  I have seen that done (Pictures) when discussing different ways to build docks.   I had forgotten about it though until your post.


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## Kane

Doc said:


> Thanks Kane.  I have seen that done (Pictures) when discussing different ways to build docks.   I had forgotten about it though until your post.



Yeah, it's amazing how a water jet can drive a 30 foot pile. Place the jet along side of it and it sinks like a rock into the bay bottom. Turns the bottom into butter. If you choose to do this with your 4X4's, be careful you don't jet down too far. If you had a way to vibrate the piles the final few inches, it'd be a big help.


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## deand1

Two questions:  

What is wrong with the current level? Looks odd but could be functional.

If you are not on a solid bottom, what is to keep this from happening again with the next flood?


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## MrLiberty

This is why I like a 55 gallon drum set up for docks, they are easily built and they rise and fall with the water level.

An elaborate dock.......


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## Doc

deand1 said:


> Two questions:
> 
> What is wrong with the current level? Looks odd but could be functional.




I'd guess we had 4 to 8ft of 4x4 buried in the river bottom.  With it up and out 2 ft or so, the docks will not be steady (I suspect).    Plus the docks would be a good bit higher than the edge of the boats we dock there.   would make it awkward getting in and out of the boats.  



deand1 said:


> If you are not on a solid bottom, what is to keep this from happening again with the next flood?



We have flood every year.  Nothing unusual.  But we've never had this happen before.   Reading and thinking more on this I doubt it was a tree that lifted the docks.  I'm guessing the extreme cold and the frozen river ice lifted the docks up.   They say this happens when the support posts are not long enough.  The section that raised has only been in two years and this was the coldest winter for sure.  Once I get the docks back down to a useable height I plan to put in 3 12 ft 4x4's on the shore side of the dock and 3 16' 4x4's on the far side of the dock to prevent them from lifting again.


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## Doc

MrLiberty said:


> This is why I like a 55 gallon drum set up for docks, they are easily built and they rise and fall with the water level.
> 
> An elaborate dock.......



Agreed Mr. L, those are nice.  And most of the folks on the river use just that.   The advantage to our permanent docks over the floating 55 gallon drum docks are that you do not have to take them out and put them back in each year.   It's always a big production to do both.  With the floods and river current if you leave floaters in the river they usually will not be there when next boating season comes around.   Most do not have the option of putting in permanent docks because of the water level fluctuation.


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## Alaska Snow Cat

What they do here in a lot of the boat harbors in Alaska, due to the extreme tide levels changes, is a combination of the pilings and floating docks. The pilings are driven in deep and permanent and then the docks are made to float up and down the pilings with a ring. Might be the best solution if you were building a new dock?  

I am surprised you are able to drive the post into the river bottom so easily and yet they have enough lateral support to last very long. How deep into the mud do they usually go?


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## Doc

We normally use 10 to 12 footers.  on the shallow side we have 1 1/2 ft of water to 2ft.  And the 4x4 is about 3 ft out of the water.  So a 10ft 4x4 would have 5ft in the mud.   on the other side of the dock it's 3 to 4 ft deep.  So again a 12 ft board would have about 5 ft  to 6ft buried.   I'm thinking I should have used 16's on the 3 to 4 ft side, and will add some this year, and 12 ft'ers on the shallow side.   

Mine are poor man's docks. 

The boat club I belong to and the yahct clubs on the river all do pilings the way you described.   That is by far the best way if you can afford it.

Oh, and it's not easy to drive these posts in the river bottom.  far from it.   We use a pole driver we named Bertha.   She's been around a long time and she's broke a lot of good men.   It's about 30" tall 6" or 7" inside diameter.  hollow up to about 4 inches from the top.  Has T handles coming out about 4 inchs from top.  Weights 75 or 80 pounds.   Two of us raise Bertha and bring her down on top of the 4x4 and drive the posts in.   Tough job but we get er done.   Getting Bertha on top of a 12 or 16' post can sure be tricky.   Bertha is popular in these parts.  Docks for 3 miles have been built using her.   One hell of a woman.


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## rlk

Doc, since you need a track hoe anyway, can the track hoe reach the raised section?  If so, use the bucket to push the 4x4 down.  

I put in a seawall on part of my pond by using a backhoe to push the 4x6 into the mud.

Bob


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## Alaska Snow Cat

Doc said:


> Mine are poor man's docks.



 Ah yes, my preferred mode of operation too! 

  There are a few contractors up here that use mini excavators to pound pilings and do a lot of docks in the winter when they can drive on the ice. They are not cheap however.


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## ki0ho

Here on the lake they do the floting  docks...and drive 20 ft lengths of 3in...oilfield pipe...as pillings to hold it in place......most of the dock companys have an air driven driver to drive themin place......most are driven about 10 ft into the bottom..............


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## Doc

rlk said:


> Doc, since you need a track hoe anyway, can the track hoe reach the raised section?  If so, use the bucket to push the 4x4 down.
> 
> I put in a seawall on part of my pond by using a backhoe to push the 4x6 into the mud.
> 
> Bob


I thought of that, and while they make excavators big enough that could reach the docks, it would need a 25 ft reach and the excavator I'm renting is not that large.   My trail / road is not that wide so I even wondered if a BIG excavator would be able to make it down to my dock area.

While talking to my brother yesterday I found out this same thing happeed to my dads permanent docks years ago when my family lived a couple hours away.  They took the aforementioned post driver 'Bertha', turned her upside down and pounded the posts back down in place.   I either forgot or never knew about his docks raising.  (I probably forgot since I was not involved in the fix).


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## Bamby

If the dock is structurally up to it, with some improvisation it "could work" if you didn't loose it to the river.

Honda Rammer Ground Pounder

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJL0BEIeI7g"]HONDA MBW Döngölő béka R480H rammer ground pounder. HONDA GX100-as motorral! - YouTube[/ame]


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## Doc

Alaska Snow Cat said:


> Ah yes, my preferred mode of operation too!
> 
> There are a few contractors up here that use mini excavators to pound pilings and do a lot of docks in the winter when they can drive on the ice. They are not cheap however.


On the river there is a small barge that will drive posts for homeowner docks.  For boat clubs you need the bigger poles (12 to 15" diameter, 30 or 40' long) and a full size barge. I've no idea of the cost but I know it's expensive.


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## Doc

Bamby said:


> If the dock is structurally up to it, with some improvisation it "could work" if you didn't loose it to the river.
> 
> Honda Rammer Ground Pounder
> 
> HONDA MBW Döngölő béka R480H rammer ground pounder. HONDA GX100-as motorral! - YouTube


Very slick Bamby.  that could work better than a jack hammer with the flat attachment, or maybe I should say easier on the operator.   Thanks.


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## Doc

Dock problem solved.
Bertha to the rescue.  Bertha is the tool we use to drive in the 4x4's.  We turned her upside down and pounded all the raised posts back down into place.  Took a little over an hour.  My back is sore but I'm sure smiling.  

Pics of docks before and after and then the star of the show.  Bertha.


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## Galvatron

Good job...now you best go get that back massaged.


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## Doc

Rain helped wash some of the crap off the docks.  Looking better every day.  
Downriver view


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## Doc

Upriver view ....docks are cleaner than they were but still need a good sweeping.   Have to bring the broom next trip down.   Back is better today, would not mind a massage but  ...


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## Kane

For a dock founded on mere 4X4's, it looks damn good!


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## Doc

Thanks Kane.  
We've found it helps to use 2x6s for the top, adds a lot more strenth than standard decking boards and costs just a little more.    The first section and the nub you see that appears to go no where have been there since 98.   When a barge got stuck in the damn we lost a whole leg of the dock that stuck out into the river.   When we finally rebuilt we went with long docks parallel with the banks.  Works great for our location.


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## Alaska Snow Cat

Yes nice work on fixing your dock Doc. I am amazed that manual post driver worked so well. Also nice to see some green leaves on the trees. We are still several weeks away from any leaves, still have snow on the ground here but it is slowly going away.


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