# Lawyers Making Toyota STOP fixing Faulty Pedals!



## Deadly Sushi

This is what is wrong with America.  This isnt govt waste, its Capitalizm at its worst. Pure greed that goes against everyones welfare except their own disgusting greed. Am I wrong here!??!?! If I am please show me because Im willing to entertain different views. 


Yesterday, the Wall Street Journal wrote: “Hell, in modern imagination, is not a place of fiery lakes and acrid fumes. It’s a maze of deposition rooms you can’t escape, where nothing is what it seems. That’s where Toyota has landed.“
Welcome to hell.
The Parker Waichman Alonso law firm , of Great Neck, NY, teamed up with the Becnel Law Firm, in New Orleans, LA and put on Businesswire that they “filed suit on behalf of several consumers who purchased Toyota vehicles subject to various recalls issued in January 2010 for defects in the vehicles’ gas pedals. The lawsuit, which was filed in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Louisiana, seeks class action status.”
So what does the Esqs. from Long Island and New Orleans want? That Toyota is ordered to recall all affected vehicles? Isn’t Toyota already doing that? To the tune of some 8m (and mounting) cars worldwide?

Au contraire!

Their complaint “asks the Court to enjoin Toyota from implementing any fixes in the accelerator pedals of the subject vehicles without approval from the NHTSA.” To those who are not familiar with a strange language called Legalese, “enjoin” means “issue an injunction,” or, in even plainer English, “order someone to stop doing something.”
*The lawyers ask the court to stop Toyota from fixing the recalled cars without approval from NHTSA. If the court grants this request, the cars will never get fixed.*
*The NHTSA never grants an approval. **Toyota issued a press release** that says “Regarding reports that the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has “approved” a plan for our pedal recall; it is Toyota’s understanding that NHTSA does not officially approve recall remedies.”*

CONTINUED: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/lawyers-ask-court-to-stop-toyota-from-fixing-cars/


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## muleman RIP

Why do you think so many in congress and higher up the ladder are lawyers? They have brought the same kind of nonsense to government and are looking to expand on it.


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## waybomb

I have a feeling this "fix" Toyota is going to perform is simply a medicine, not a cure.

I've heard a number of solutions, one being different floormats and another adding a shim under a gas pedal spring.

Could it be possible the attorneys have discovered what is really going on with these throttle controls and that Toyota is playing GM? Have you heard their press releases on this? Gawd they sound just like GM's bs.

I hope I am wrong.


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## Doc

Could the lawyers be playing two sides of the street and working for Ford.


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## Av8r3400

waybomb said:


> I have a feeling this "fix" Toyota is going to perform is simply a medicine, not a cure.



I saw on one of the car shows that this is not only a floor mat or peddle issue but a computer software issue, too.  These are all throttle-by-wire cars.  All the foot-feed is is a rheostat.

Runaway Lexus 911 call.

My VWs are throttle-by-wire, too.  However if you touch the brake and throttle at the same time, the throttle returns to idle, no matter the peddle position.  To reset it you, must release the throttle and then it will respond again.  If the peddle were to stick on the floor, touching the brake will send the engine to idle until the throttle peddle returns to idle, too.


Why don't the Toyotas have a safety like this?


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## 300 H and H

Maybe because they are not German!

Regards, Kirk


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## waybomb

How come they go to WOT? If they are simply sticking, they would stop at the farthest depressed positiion. Very few people ever floor their accelerator. I believe it to be an electronic issue if in fact the throttle progresses to WOT.


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## fogtender

Av8r3400 said:


> I saw on one of the car shows that this is not only a floor mat or peddle issue but a computer software issue, too. These are all throttle-by-wire cars. All the foot-feed is is a rheostat.
> 
> Runaway Lexus 911 call.
> 
> My VWs are throttle-by-wire, too. However if you touch the brake and throttle at the same time, the throttle returns to idle, no matter the peddle position. To reset it you, must release the throttle and then it will respond again. If the peddle were to stick on the floor, touching the brake will send the engine to idle until the throttle peddle returns to idle, too.
> 
> 
> Why don't the Toyotas have a safety like this?


 
They guy was stomping on the brake peddle, had time to dial 911 and was yelling into the phone, why didn't he just flip it into neutral? Or, turn off the key, either would have stopped the engine dead in it's tracks from speeding the car down the roadway... 

He killed himself, his wife and two kids from a shear panic and he was suppose to be an Police Officer at that and use to intense situations. I just can't imagine what he was thinking about, seems all the thought process went out the window.

Makes one wonder if he was suicidal or something else was wired wrong in his head, just can't imagine a guy losing it that drives at high speeds in the course of his work.


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## pirate_girl

fogtender;320769
[B said:
			
		

> why didn't he just flip it into neutral? [/B]
> 
> *just can't imagine a guy losing it that drives at high speeds in the course of his work.*



*That's the big question that everyone seems to be asking about this tragedy Mark.*
*
That doesn't matter- he panicked and wasn't thinking like a police officer at the time. That's my guess.
He was thinking --what the hell is going on with this car.


*


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## fogtender

Yeah, I can't imagine what he was thinking about, but the fix they are suppose to be installing is just a shim behind the gas pedal assembly, since it is just a rheostat for a pedal action, I don't see where that will solve anything at all. 

If it is a computer glitch, it may be that turning off the key and putting the computer controlled shifter into neutral won't work if the relays don't shut off. 

Don't know what the shifter system is on those units, but many are electric now and the shifter only accesses the key switch to lock the steering wheel and put the car into a manual park latch. All the other shift settings are electronic controlled by the computer program.

If it is a programming issue, they may be really up a creek as well as the owners.


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## grizzer

Depending on the size of the RAM chip is would take under 5 mins to reflash the engine control module.

******************

A former designer & manufacturer of <safety critical> on board electronics.

I would not want to be in the STOP SHIP & STOP SALE meeting...


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## muleman RIP

I am glad my Prius is not part of all this but when I bought the first one in 2007 one of the first things I did was make sure it could be shifted to neutral when driving. You can also turn it off and coast to a stop by holding the power button for 3 seconds. The 2010 is the same way. I also have a hard time believing someone could not stop a vehicle but could make a phone call. I make it a point to review with my wife what to do if I ever have a heart problem while driving so she can stop the vehicle.


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## Av8r3400

I just saw a story on the news that the Prius hype-brid is under a recall for brakes now, too.

Part of the gas peddle issue is there is a progressive friction & spring mechanism on the throttle to make it feel like it is hooked to something.  This is sticking.  BUT - there should still be a fail safe as I described earlier.

Who really knows why the driver in the Lexus didn't shut it off or shift to neutral.  Maybe he couldn't due to trying to control the runaway car, locked shifter mechanism, "safety" on the ignition switch or lack thereof (a start button).  

I didn't know that if you hold the start button on these cars, it shuts them off.

I thought that a passenger was on the phone...   Panic is a crazy thing.


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## Av8r3400

An update on the Prius brakes...  I just saw on the news that it is not a recall, yet.  However, the story was such that the brakes themselves may not be the issue, but the software (again) that controls the regenerative braking and electric motor.  That would not be good if instead of regen-braking the electric motor pulls...


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## rback33

My wife's car is part of the recall. I read this horror stories and wonder about the people that they happen to. You can't turn the car off in gear. HOWEVER... throw it into neutral! You can do this at any speed! I have done it many times on accident. I get to bobbing with the music and beating my hand on the shifter and kick it into neutral. When this first came about my wife looked at me and says, "can't you just put it in neutral?" She is not mechanically inclined, but she immediately knew the solution. The worst thing a person can do is panic. At any rate.. I am not getting too worked up about the fix. I am still not 100% convinced they know HOW to fix it yet.


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## muleman RIP

Av8r3400 said:


> An update on the Prius brakes...  I just saw on the news that it is not a recall, yet.  However, the story was such that the brakes themselves may not be the issue, but the software (again) that controls the regenerative braking and electric motor.  That would not be good if instead of regen-braking the electric motor pulls...


 I just scheduled mine for service and to have that checked out. Also filed a complaint with the NTHSA for it. Blew right through an intersection yesterday. Damn computer shit is unnecessary and dangerous. Stupid traction control is the reason I don't drive it when it snows. As soon as a wheel spins it locks out the drive and you lose all momentum and then you are stuck. At least in my suburban you can turn it off and go.


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## waybomb

See, this is why you should be driving a 1969 carbureted Boss 429 Stang, or a carbureted big block Chevelle, or a Hemi Coronet, etc.

Anybody can work on them, and no computers.

Have to admit though, brakes really sucked back then.


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## muleman RIP

waybomb said:


> See, this is why you should be driving a 1969 carbureted Boss 429 Stang, or a carbureted big block Chevelle, or a Hemi Coronet, etc.
> 
> Anybody can work on them, and no computers.
> 
> Have to admit though, brakes really sucked back then.


The first manufacturer who make a plain jane vehicle without all this ABS,traction control,stability control etc. I will be the first to buy one. I saw a show the other day with winter driving tips for women while at the hospital. they said starting in 2012 all cars will have traction assist. They better start waking up and realizing too much technology can be deadly. Good efficient drivetrains is one thing but they are taking too much control of the vehicle away from the driver. My next truck I am leaning toward buying a 2wd and taking it down and having a real 4wd with solid front axle put under it. With a real transfer case with a lever and manual locking hubs. All this auto stuff is more headache than it is worth.


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## Rusty Shackleford

this is why you dont buy toyotas. or hybrids. thats all i have to say on the issue.


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## waybomb

muleman said:


> The first manufacturer who make a plain jane vehicle without all this ABS,traction control,stability control etc. I will be the first to buy one. I saw a show the other day with winter driving tips for women while at the hospital. they said starting in 2012 all cars will have traction assist. They better start waking up and realizing too much technology can be deadly. Good efficient drivetrains is one thing but they are taking too much control of the vehicle away from the driver. .


 
My dd Benz has traction and stability control. I'll have to say, it is pretty cool how it works. I've tried to throw it into a spin in an empty snowed up lot; it is not happening. Turn the traction/stability off, and she'll spin out, but then at a second or two of that, it takes over anyway. Waycool. I feel very safe in these cars.


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## Av8r3400

muleman said:


> The first manufacturer who make a plain jane vehicle without all this ABS,traction control,stability control etc. I will be the first to buy one. I saw a show the other day with winter driving tips for women while at the hospital. they said starting in 2012 all cars will have traction assist. They better start waking up and realizing too much technology can be deadly. Good efficient drivetrains is one thing but they are taking too much control of the vehicle away from the driver. My next truck I am leaning toward buying a 2wd and taking it down and having a real 4wd with solid front axle put under it. With a real transfer case with a lever and manual locking hubs. All this auto stuff is more headache than it is worth.



That's why I will _*never *_get rid of my '94 Dodge Ram 2500HD, Cummins, 5-speed (NVG4500), 4x4 -  Straight axle (Dana 60 & 80), manual transfer case (NVG241HD)

Plain, simple, not even a computer in it.


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## waybomb

Av8r3400 said:


> That's why I will _*never *_get rid of my '94 Dodge Ram 2500HD, Cummins, 5-speed (NVG4500), 4x4 -  Straight axle (Dana 60 & 80), manual transfer case (NVG241HD)
> 
> Plain, simple, not even a computer in it.



Once you get that bay started, you can probably throw away the alternator and battery and it will run until you run out of fuel or oil, correct? 

I had a diesel Benz like that. Went on a long trip. Alternator went out, and the idiot light on the dash did not. Went about 400 miles, stopped for fuel, turned her off. That's when I found out the alternator died.

I loved my diesel. Alas, my wife did not.


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## fogtender

Rusty Shackleford said:


> this is why you dont buy toyotas. or hybrids. thats all i have to say on the issue.


 
Sadly, they are all pretty much drive by wire now...


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## Rusty Shackleford

fogtender said:


> Sadly, they are all pretty much drive by wire now...


 

not all of em!


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## Av8r3400

waybomb said:


> Alas, my wife did not.



Fred, you gave up too easy.  My wife got 'my' '01 TDi Jetta when we bought it new.  I was driving a '86 diesel Jetta at that time.  She's hooked on her '01 TDi Beetle now, too.


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## muleman RIP

Been doing a little reading up on the Toyota problems. It is leaning more toward dumb software than a physical problem. When the co-founder of Apple has it happen while cruising along with cruise enabled and his feet nowhere near the pedal I don't think a shim is going to fix it! My brake problem is also apparently a result of regenerative braking that uses software to maximize the charging of the battery during braking. Most every person has reported it happens at low speed and downhill on a bumpy road. It is not a good feeling when you are slowing up coming to an intersection and it just does nothing. I like the mileage but would love to have my old 85 suburban back in a heartbeat.


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## waybomb

Av8r3400 said:


> Fred, you gave up too easy. My wife got 'my' '01 TDi Jetta when we bought it new. I was driving a '86 diesel Jetta at that time. She's hooked on her '01 TDi Beetle now, too.


 
"If you get rid of that stinky diesel, yes, you can go buy a 600SL"

'nuff said


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## fogtender

fogtender said:


> Yeah, I can't imagine what he was thinking about, but the fix they are suppose to be installing is just a shim behind the gas pedal assembly, since it is just a rheostat for a pedal action, I don't see where that will solve anything at all.
> 
> If it is a computer glitch, it may be that turning off the key and putting the computer controlled shifter into neutral won't work if the relays don't shut off.
> 
> Don't know what the shifter system is on those units, but many are electric now and the shifter only accesses the key switch to lock the steering wheel and put the car into a manual park latch. All the other shift settings are electronic controlled by the computer program.
> 
> If it is a programming issue, they may be really up a creek as well as the owners.


 

Sadly it is starting to appear what I stated, bad software, if so, there is not much you can do if your car takes off on you except hit the brakes hard and find a controled place to crash before the brakes fade and you start to speed back up.


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## Lia

waybomb said:


> I've heard a number of solutions, one being different floormats and another adding a shim under a gas pedal spring.


 
Yes, I've heard about the carpet issue also. I bought a Peugeot 107 in Jan 2006, in England; I spend two thirds of the year there... Never had a problem with it, but then I went for the extra's, including the rubber mats, and so haven't noticed a problem with the carpet riding up, which I am told is the real issue with the cars.

I haven't been contacted yet, if I'm even gonna be, but I was assured by 'someone supposedly in the know' that this was the problem, and it is merely a case of a ten minute job at the service station, to sort. 

I don't know what 'drive by wire' means, why would I? That's why Daddy's and Uncle's were invented, but, I'm assuming that it means an automatic drive, and my Peugeot is manual. In any event, I have driven approx 57 thousand miles in it, and never noticed anything such as described., and I hope that this continues as I am about to do take another long trip on the 8th, so fingers crossed.

I am vaguely concerned, having read all of the posts here, but not understanding the er... technical terms and all that sort of thing, that a girl doesn't necessarily need to know, I shall just wait my turn in receiving my car recall.


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## Av8r3400

Lia, Drive by wire means that the gas peddle is not hooked (by a cable or mechanical linkage) directly to the engine.  It is an electronic switch (like a dimmer switch in your house) that sends its signal only to the computer that runs the engine.  The computer then controls the engine speed.

My VW is also a 5-speed, but it still has a drive by wire gas peddle.


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## Lia

Av8r3400 said:


> Lia, Drive by wire means that the gas peddle is not hooked (by a cable or mechanical linkage) directly to the engine. It is an electronic switch (like a dimmer switch in your house) that sends its signal only to the computer that runs the engine. The computer then controls the engine speed.
> 
> My VW is also a 5-speed, but it still has a drive by wire gas peddle.


 
Ohh, ok; thanks for that explanation Av8r3400. I really should try to understand more about it.


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## Av8r3400

The brake peddle is hooked directly to the brakes, but the computer controls the anti-lock mechanism.  Meaning if the computer sees fit it can cancel you braking input.  (The current issue with Toyota Prius.)

So far, I don't think any manufacturer has taken away the direct link from the steering wheel to the front wheels.  I know it has been done on some experimental cars, but I don't think anything in production, yet.

(That's why if there is a software issue in the computer these newer cars can get really uncontrollable.)

The person driving is really only a voting member of a committee operating the car...


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## muleman RIP

That is why I am demanding they disable the ABS and the traction control when mine goes in for service next week. They have taken control of the vehicle away from the driver.


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## Av8r3400

muleman said:


> That is why I am demanding they disable the ABS and the traction control when mine goes in for service next week. They have taken control of the vehicle away from the driver.




Better just get a different, older car.  These functions are integrated into the control computer and cannot be singly disabled.

Even if they could, it would open them to serious liability that would not be tolerated.  They would rather have an irate customer who won't come back than a liability lawsuit.

Sorry, but you're stuck with that silly hype-brid's computerized idiocy.


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## Rusty Shackleford

Av8r3400 said:


> Better just get a different, older car. These functions are integrated into the control computer and cannot be singly disabled.
> 
> Even if they could, it would open them to serious liability that would not be tolerated. They would rather have an irate customer who won't come back than a liability lawsuit.
> 
> Sorry, but you're stuck with that silly hype-brid's computerized idiocy.


 
if you dont mind an idiot light or two on, you can pull the fuse. disables abs and tracs


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## muleman RIP

Why aren't you out shoveling? If you take out the fuse it probably won't run at all. My suburban at least has a switch to turn off the stability system.


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## Rusty Shackleford

if i remove the abs fuse it will turn off abs and tracs, but the car will drive as normal otherwise. ive done it lol.

and im not shoveling because theres no dam use. the wind is too cold and if i shovel, its covered again in 5 seconds. besides, the snowdrifts are 3 feet high  im too damn lazy for that shit


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## muleman RIP

Waaaaaaa! Quit your crying. I hear you though. About the time you shovel the plow will come down the alley and close you back in anyhow.


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## Rusty Shackleford

i dunno. our roads are pretty fucked up right now, i dont see the plow coming through for a while.


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## grizzer

Av8r3400 said:


> The brake peddle is hooked directly to the brakes, but the computer controls the anti-lock mechanism. Meaning if the computer sees fit it can cancel you braking input. (The current issue with Toyota Prius.)
> 
> So far, I don't think any manufacturer has taken away the direct link from the steering wheel to the front wheels. I know it has been done on some experimental cars, but I don't think anything in production, yet.
> 
> (That's why if there is a software issue in the computer these newer cars can get really uncontrollable.)
> 
> The person driving is really only a voting member of a committee operating the car...


 
Lots of cars are electric power steering now - drive by wire. Saturn suv was the first GM in production in 2002. 

The electric steering is more fuel efficient (size weight & power consumption) than old hydraulic systems. In addition EPS allows better software that slows steering response at high speed & increases response.when slow as in parking.

Olds Aurora was the first model attempt at hydraulic graduated smart steering. You don't want to know the cost. The system was basically the conventional hydraulic parts and adding a computerized electromagnetic coil which stepped up steering wheel effort at speed.


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## muleman RIP

They are just announcing that it is now believed to be an electronic problem, not mechanical sticking of the pedal.


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## waybomb

Figured that all along. A car does not accelerate with a sticking pedal. It will stick at the furthest deflection, not go to WOT.

As for Prius, I believe the problem to be in the regenerative mode. The brakes don't fail. The computer is supposed to "tell" the electric motor to turn into a generator on deceleration, to recharge the batteries. This is done on electric lift trucks as well.

Seems that in the Prius, the computer for some reason is telling the motor to go forward, fast, when it should be transitioning into regeneration mode.


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## muleman RIP

The dealer is telling me it is the dwell time between regen braking and enabling hydraulic braking. They swear it will stop if you stand on the brakes. I have tried to get it to do it a few more times and it did not. when it does happen it catches you by surprise when you are driving the same road every day and it might happen once in 250 times. It did feel almost like it accelerated to me . I blew through a Y intersection in a hurry at about 30mph.


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## waybomb

Just to be clear - 

You want to stop the car, so you press the pedal, but the electric motor is still in power? 

So there is a lag? 

So when it actually switches to full braking / regen, it must stop real fast?

Or, you are running on dino, step on the pedal, and instead of going into regen, the motor actually becomes powered for split second? Or longer?

Interesting. And must be spooky when it happens.


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## muleman RIP

Yeah it is almost like when the abs on early versions locked out your rear brakes. You apply the same amount of pedal but if you are on a bumpy washboard type of road it feels like you are pressing on a brick. Two times it was very brief but the last one was NOT brief when you blow through the yield sign. I can make it repeat the brief lockout but not the long one. I do think the ABS has something to do with it as well. It acts like it gets 2 inputs and can't process fast enough to give proper response.


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## waybomb

It's the Oriental way of keeping you awake while driving.......

I wouldn't drive that car until they fix it. What if you were attempting to stop for a pedestrian? Damn.


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## Av8r3400

I watched the lady testify today in front of congress.

To the comments made earlier in this thread:  She testified that she not only was on the brakes with both feet, applied the emergency brake, but attempted to shut off the ignition to no effect, shifted to all gear selections - _including reverse_ - with no effect on the car.

This is truly scary.  The recording of the policeman driving his Lexus to a fire filled crash has a whole new meaning.


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## muleman RIP

I don't know about any other models but I can shift the Prius to neutral or hold the power button 3 seconds and it will shut off and stop. I did experience the brake issue again on ice this past Sunday while going to visit my dad. I am certain it is ABS related and maybe has to do with the stability control as every time it happens going downhill. One time in 460 miles on Sunday.


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## grizzer

If the university + lab testing simply shorted the gas pedal wow. Most safety critical circuits should have failure mode redundancy built in. For example if an action resistance goes up there has to be a corresponding lower resistance on a parallel circuit. If both circuits do not act as expected, output goes into limp home mode and a trouble code is set. 

With the testimony today Toyota not knowing the answer it's unreal...

My electric vehicle ESC knowledge is pretty limited but in a nutshell it takes various inputs, adds directional accelerometers & pulses individual wheel brakes and/or power. 

The Prius sounds like the software hierarchy has a problem with certain function combinations.


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## fogtender

I figured all along that this is a computer program issue, not a floormat or gas pedal problem.  I have a Toyota Rav4, but it was built in Japan and shipped to the Alaska Dealers, so far there is no recall for that version.

But I am going to install a manual power kill switch that will shut the engine off deader than a doornail when it is flipped on (or off) and will totally bypass the computer.  Not going to deal with this stuff, otherwise it runs fine.


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## grizzer

A power on/off is not as simple as a light switch. Under operation you could get back feed power that maintains PCM module power. Unintended switching is going to trip DTC's putting you in limp home mode (2nd gear, rpm limited, etc...)

Another problem when messing with vehicle switching is voltage spikes & power surges. They have enough potential to kill the module you are trying to save, or another one in the vehicle.

Think of the car as a 9600 baud network where stuff is communicating in order. Disrupt the order and the machine begins to save itself.


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## fogtender

grizzer said:


> A power on/off is not as simple as a light switch. Under operation you could get back feed power that maintains PCM module power. Unintended switching is going to trip DTC's putting you in limp home mode (2nd gear, rpm limited, etc...)
> 
> Another problem when messing with vehicle switching is voltage spikes & power surges. They have enough potential to kill the module you are trying to save, or another one in the vehicle.
> 
> Think of the car as a 9600 baud network where stuff is communicating in order. Disrupt the order and the machine begins to save itself.


 
NO, you put the relay in-line with the auto's power supply with a diode so there can't be back-feed to the relay's remote power supply. When the power is off, the relay goes dead, as well as the engine..

I haven't had a chance to look at the engine yet, but when I installed the factory made remote starter system, there is a few points that I may tap into the system. Either the fuel or spark lines. When the power is cut, the engine will die, there is no bypassing of those power supply systems. Not going to interfere with the computer itself, as you stated, it can get power from a couple of sources in a bad system.


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## Lia

I am awed by everyone's expertise and comprehension of the jungle of metal, pipes and rubber tubes under the bonnet of a car. Just blows me away to hear y'all talk about it... 

Well, I guess I'm off the hook then; no need to worry about my 107. It sounds like it's a computer problem after all; which is just as well, because mine still hasn't been recalled. It's 4 years old now, manual, never had a problem with it, and recently I put another 5/600 miles onto an already 57,000 on the clock, on an out of town trip, with not one hiccup.

You're absolutely right Av8r3400, it truly is scary!


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## rlk

Av8r3400 said:


> I watched the lady testify today in front of congress.
> 
> To the comments made earlier in this thread:  She testified that she not only was on the brakes with both feet, applied the emergency brake, but attempted to shut off the ignition to no effect, shifted to all gear selections - _including reverse_ - with no effect on the car.
> 
> This is truly scary.  The recording of the policeman driving his Lexus to a fire filled crash has a whole new meaning.



Can anyone explain to me why shifting to neutral will not work?  Or is shifting gears controlled by the computer as well?  I have a Rav4 and the gear shift lever sits right over the transmission, so I assumed there was a mechanical link between the two, but I may be wrong. 

Thanks, Bob


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## Av8r3400

Many of these cars will not allow you to do the "wrong" thing with the shifter.  The transmission is computer controlled and the shifter is only a switch in the system.  Often times they are not mechanically hooked to anything.  This is to prevent the "dumb driver" from doing something like bumping the shifter into reverse while traveling forward, or shifting into gear without a signal from the brake interlock switch.  They are not just a mechanical gate, hooked to gears like in years past.

To me the only real safety mechanism is a manual transmission with a clutch peddle!

(or an older car)


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## fogtender

Av8r3400 said:


> To me the only real safety mechanism is a manual transmission with a clutch peddle!
> 
> (or an older car)


 
That does seem to be the only really solid answer for newer cars, push the mechanical clutch in, the power to the wheels is 100% gone...  Engine may be racing, but no place to go.

Most people have no idea of how to shift a standard though, almost a museum piece in many cases.


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## grizzer

Sorry for old tech 1999 but story is about Mpls police van that killed 2 injured 10. To summarize van was modified with police eq. by trained mechanic. Mechanic pulled relay power from the brake circuit as always. Vehicle computer sensed foot on brake allowing PRNDL shift lock interface to release allowing trans lever out of park position. Only during the ON flashing light sequence. Cop climbs in vehicle steps on wrong pedal & shifts in gear... dead baby.  

http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/hise/safety-critical-archive/2000/0567.html

The trans will go into neutral in all cases. Depending on speed, RPM's, etc it will not downshift into too low a gear to avoid damage. Reverse at speed logic says no again avoiding damage. 

Yesterdays testimony I took at face value, people panic & think they do things which may or may not make sense later. 

Years ago I was driving a relatives 396 Impala back from the lake with a hottie early one morning & somehow popped the trans in reverse at 60 mph. Did not know why the car was shaking & slowing down, so hit the gas harder, the car started backing down the hwy in a cloud of burnt rubber. Then spotted the shift lever. That car left 2 truly impressive black stripes on the asphalt!

Never have told my aunt. he he he


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