# British Cars versus American Cars



## Melensdad

OK, maybe not actually British cars, but cars that are available in the UK versus cars we have here in the US.

*Diesel:  No contest here, UK wins this one without debate*
From my observations, diesel was running about $1 more per gallon over the price of gasoline, as I was leaving prices were dropping but diesel was about $12 and gasoline about $11 per gallon.  That said diesel cars were plentiful, seeming to be at least 40% of the newer vehicle, perhaps much more than 40% and they also seemed to get (based on the British car rags I picked up) at least 20% better fuel economy.  For what its worth, I can only find 1 diesel car for sale today in the US, it is the Mercedes.​
*Straight line performance:  USA wins, but who cares?*
Yup, want to go fast in a straight line, the USA wins easily.  We have dozens of cars that go fast and a long history of the same.  Given that there isn't a straight stretch of road in all of the UK it is easy to say that our fast cars are pretty worthless on their roads.  In fact given how narrow some roads are, some of our best cars won't even fit on their roads.​
*ECONOMY:  UK wins, again there is no contest*
There are several major reasons why cars in the USA get such lousy fuel economy.  1- Our environmental regulations measure emissions differently than other nations do so we cannot get a diesel engine to pass our emissions tests.  2- Even in gas engines we hobble the engines with catalytic converter units that rob economy.  3- Weight due to mandated safety features _(5mph bumpers are very heavy)_.  Simply put our cars weigh more and consequently get less fuel economy.  4- Safety features have a second effect, they prevent many of the small cars from ever getting to our shores because the tiny, and even some not so tiny, cars in the UK _(and the rest of the world)_ can't pass our crash safety standards.  

It all boils down to the fact that the same car in the UK versus its American equivalent will get at least 10% better fuel economy in the UK than it will get here.​
*VARIETY:  UK wins this one, again no contest*
Basically the UK has most every car we have here in the states, and then a dozen other brands too.  Further for each brand they have, most have many models that are not imported into the USA.  By this I do not mean they have more variants of each model, I mean they have models.  

However just looking at variants, the little Volvo C30 is available in the US in 3 trim levels with only 1 engine.  In the UK that car is available with at least 4 or perhaps 5 different engines and each in multiple trim levels.​
Now to be fair, the American car market is really hobbled by our government regulations for safety and for emissions.  The rest of the world uses other measurements and/or tax schemes to measure and encourage emission efficiency.  The cars in the UK are simply better in many ways than the cars in the US, but it appears that very few are actually make or designed in the UK.  Still I wish we could have their cars here.

I'm curious to hear what Vin thinks of the cars in OZ versus the cars in the US.  I believe the Aussie roads are more similar to our American roads so some of the disadvantages associated with American cars may  be moot and irrelevant to him?  Then again, I may be dead wrong on that point!


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## pirate_girl

I drove a Renault19. 
My late hubby had a Toyota Paseo.
Mine of course was auto transmission since I can't drive a stick.
I had to search far and wide for that car, and finally found it at a dealer in Batley, Leeds.
The Renault got good mileage, as I bought it with under 20,000 on the clock.
We drove it all over the UK on holiday and I was sad when I had to part with the little ugly thing when I moved back to the states.
I sold the Toyota to a family member over there.
The Renault -I gave to my step daughter Leeanne, and she still has it. 
I rather liked the British cars myself.


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## daedong

Bob I will make a comment after I have visited the US.
Here is a link that probably covers most if not all new cars sold in OZ.
http://www.discountnewcars.com.au/


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## EastTexFrank

Bob, I think most of your observations are true.  My son who still lives in the UK has a Ford Focus with a 1.6 litre turbo diesel engine that gets 45-50 mpg and he says it's quite quick in the acceleration department as well.  

As far as straight line speed is concerned, I'm not so sure because I think the philosophy is different between the two countries.  British and European cars tend to have higher revving, higher compression engines without all the catalytic converters and stuff.  In other words they try to engineer their way to better 0-60 times while in the U.S., if you want to go faster you just plonk in a bigger engine.


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## Spiffy1

Interesting that UK has a larger percentage of diesel cars, yet the ratio in price is a much smaller chasm than here [I think they were about a dollar apart here last time I fueled].  I wonder if UKs fuel taxes leavy per Liter or per GBP.

Great threads from your vacation Bob!  My skills of observation tend to take a break when I'm on vacation, rather than remaning as keen enough to catch the detail you've noted here alone.


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## Melensdad

Spiffy1 said:


> Interesting that UK has a larger percentage of diesel cars, yet the ratio in price is a much smaller chasm than here [I think they were about a dollar apart here last time I fueled].  I wonder if UKs fuel taxes leavy per Liter or per GBP.



I don't have any idea what the fuel tax is, but on an episode of a British TV show called TOP GEAR the main host stated something about 70% of the cost of fuel being a national tax.  He may have been generalizing or averaging the gas/diesel taxes?  It may be that the cost of fuel is only 30% of the price?  It may have been stated for entertainment purposes only!  All I know is that the prices there are roughly 2.5 times higher than our prices but the cars get much better fuel economy.

Mini Cooper Diesels were advertised as getting about 65 miles to the gallon!!!  I believe the Audi A4 Diesel I was driving was rated at 51.4mpg!  In the USA, the EPA rating for an Audi A4 gas engine is 24mpg combined, so the diesel engine yielded MORE THAN DOUBLE the fuel economy and it was a peppy little car that made short work of the steep hills, had no problem accelerating on the few straights I found and was a pleasure to drive.  A little Volvo C30 is ranked by the EPA at 23mpg, but in the UK, with the same engine they get 33.6mpg and with a 2 liter Diesel engine they are rated at 49mpg.

Here in the US we use so much fuel because the EPA hobbles our cars with all sorts of pollution gear.  Wouldn't it make sense to allow these super-efficient cars into our country so we burned less fuel and therefor emitted less emissions?  Sure, per gallon our emissions are cleaner, but we burn 2 gallons for every 1 of theirs so we end up spewing more crap into the air.

Like I said, advantage in this category clearly goes to the Brits (and all of Europe too based on my prior travels there).


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## darroll

Do the Brits still put lead in their gas?
All my cars got better mileage while using the lead additive that was in all of our (US) gas.


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## Mith

Bob, dont forget our gallons are bigger than yours, I dont know if your MPG figures take that into account.

No lead in fuel here.


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## Melensdad

Mith said:


> Bob, dont forget our gallons are bigger than yours



Jim, I totally forgot about the "Imperial Gallon" difference.  So that would inflate the milage figures for your cars because an Imperial Gallon is a bit more than 1 pint more than a US Gallon.  But even with that difference, all the other information would be reasonable, such as the USA's inability to see the economy of small diesels and our inability to consider the fact the more "MPG" also translates into less emissions, and also our idiotic fascination with big heavy "5 MPH" safety bumpers on cars that add weight, drag down MPG and increase cost while doing essentially nothing in a 30mph collision but adding to repair costs in a 10mph collision.  No matter how you add it up, a diesel Audi A4 getting 51 Imperial MPG beats the heck out of a gas Audi A4 getting 24 US MPG any day.


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## Av8r3400

B_Skurka said:


> *Diesel:  No contest here, UK wins this one without debate*From my observations, diesel was running about $1 more per gallon over the price of gasoline, as I was leaving prices were dropping but diesel was about $12 and gasoline about $11 per gallon.  That said diesel cars were plentiful, seeming to be at least 40% of the newer vehicle, perhaps much more than 40% and they also seemed to get (based on the British car rags I picked up) at least 20% better fuel economy.  For what its worth, I can only find 1 diesel car for sale today in the US, it is the Mercedes.​



VW is now available again in the US with their TDi.

Diesels average 35% better fuel economy than gasoline.  The trade off is awesome in Europe (9% fuel premium) where the ecco-nazis haven't gone after the diesels, yet.

The US EPA measure emissions by gallon of fuel burned rather than per mile traveled.  Stupid.


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## Melensdad

Av8r . . . I just looked at the VW website yesterday and notice that I can buy a JETTA with a diesel engine.  For 007 fuel economy, according to the EPA is about 35/42 for city/highway, not sure about 2008 mpg.

If it was a Passat I'd buy it in a heartbeat.  Or an Audi A4.  Not sure about the Jetta, its a nifty little car but may be smaller than the lovely Mrs B would want for hauling school stuff around. . . _but I'd actually like to try a Mini Cooper Clubman or a Volvo A3 because those are sort of like gas powered roller skates and would be a blast to drive around!!!_



OOPS . . . the VW TDI JETTA is not available yet.  It is listed on the website as available fall 2008.
​


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## Av8r3400

Demos are in stock now and you can order now...  (Per the pestering phone calls from my stealer.)


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## EastTexFrank

A friend just bought a "Smart Car".  Strangest thing I ever saw. I could probably get it in the back of my pick-up if necessary.  But, it makes a lot of sense ... they're retired, max of two passengers, don't take long trips anymore, it'll hold groceries and the milage is ridiculous.


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## Melensdad

EastTexFrank said:


> A friend just bought a "Smart Car".  Strangest thing I ever saw.* I could probably get it in the back of my pick-up if necessary. * But, it makes a lot of sense ... they're retired, max of two passengers, don't take long trips anymore, it'll hold groceries and the milage is ridiculous.



And you can fit 2 of those cars in a parking space on a London side street!


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## Ice Queen

I for one, wouldn't be seen dead in one, they look rediculous.


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## Melensdad

Ice Queen said:


> I for one, wouldn't be seen dead in one, they look rediculous.



I hear that they are coming out with a new model.  Its a HEARSE for eco-funerals


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## Wyn

Ok time to get in on this one the UK cars are a lot more zippy than the Americans because:
There are so many speed cameras (painted bright yellow!) that you have to stand on the brakes just before them then boot it hard once you have gone past the camera to drive like this you NEED a Turbo! Added advantage smaller engine lighter weight less TAX! Nowadays you get taxed for thinking about your car, let alone actually driving it!
re small cars try the BMW Z3 /Z4 derivatives NICE or for real fun try Lotus eg Exige, Aston Martins, Jags. Then come back and we will discuss straight line speed and please don't even think of mentioning that monstrosity of the 600BHP Dodge viper engined pick up truck!!!!! who lost the plot there eh?


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## Melensdad

Well rumor has it we are getting the best selling car in Europe here in the US later this year.  Its an Opel and will be sold here in the states under the Saturn brand name.  I'd like to see the Vauxhaul Astra imported here.  The little coupe with the 240hp engine!!!  That is a sweet little car.


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## Hutchman

Bob, we've had the Astra in Saturn dealers for months. Can't sell 'em. We've had 'em in my dealer for probably five months now, and have sold three. This is a hugely popular car in Europe. Gm vice-chairman Bob Lutz even stated the other day that, due to unfavorable exchange rates between the Euro and dollar, the Astra is over priced. Sales are at about 7,000 of an expected 25,000. Every review of the Astra I've seen has been positive. I drive 'em often and they're OK. Underpowered for my tastes. 1.8L is the only engine currently available. A turbo is badly needed. Haven't heard about it coming though.


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## Rock350

All countries have had good and bad cars. I like American cars better than British, but they all have good and bad cars. Good cars for American: 1955-57 Chevy Bel Air; the 59 Cadillac; the early Ford Mustangs, the late 60's Dodge Charger, etc. Bad American cars: the Ford Pinto; the Chrysler K-cars. British good cars: The E-type Jaguar; the Bently R-type; the RR Silver Ghost, etc. Horrible British cars: The Mini; unreliable Range Rovers; the 1976 Aston Martin Lagonda; the 1958 MGA Twin Cam, etc. So there.


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## tiredretired

Anyone know why the British drink warm beer?  Because Lucas makes the refrigerators too.


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## FrancSevin

Smart Cars get 35MPG. Not allthat spectacular. Their appeal is tight parking places where they are Aces.

Diesel is better the gasoline for some perspectives. Cold starting, not so good. Acceleration,,,,, Not so good, even the turbos'

Heavier, louder, clunkier, smellier, despite all the advances.

And don't forget the mess at the pump.

Unless you have owned diesel vehicles you are not aware of these differences.

It is not an apples to apples comparison. More like Apples to Crabapples. Or pears.

I own several diesels. ave owned many over the years. My 350SDL Benz was my favorite. had an identical gas version 420 SEL. Loved the diesel best but then the fuel went to $3.50 per gallon. Not worth the trade off.

All that said, I do wish we had more of them available here.  Diesel is easy to make from soybeans and cost effective.  The by products are still excellent for annimal feed. But ETOH won the politics, not the market.  So we burn food in our cars andpay taxes to do it.


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## Melensdad

FrancSevin said:


> Diesel is better the gasoline for some perspectives. Cold starting, not so good. Acceleration,,,,, Not so good, even the turbos'
> 
> Heavier, louder, clunkier, smellier, despite all the advances.
> 
> And don't forget the mess at the pump.


We have a diesel 2010 VW Jetta and I will agree with you about the mess at the pump.

However as for louder, clunkier, smellier . . . all those are untrue with the TDI engines.  

Oh, and the cold starting requires NO warming of glow plugs, just turn the key and the car fires up.  

Acceleration is quick enough that I can squeal the wheels from a stop.  

From what I understand, not all the modern diesels are as good as the TDI diesels, but I'm sold on these things.  The Jetta is much larger than a SMART car, yet gets better fuel economy, seats 4.5 adults and has a big trunk.

I'm seriously considering the new Passat TDI for a replacement to our Volvo XC90.


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## muleman RIP

You keep mentioning the paasat tdi but I have not found anything on it being available stateside yet.


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## Catavenger

Hey Baby! shagadelic Brit car!


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## pirate_girl

^^groovy baaaaaaaabay!!


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## Melensdad

muleman said:


> You keep mentioning the paasat tdi but I have not found anything on it being available stateside yet.



Its right on the website => http://web.vw.com/all-new-passat-experience/


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## SShepherd

FrancSevin said:


> Smart Cars get 35MPG. Not allthat spectacular. Their appeal is tight parking places where they are Aces.
> 
> *Diesel is better the gasoline for some perspectives. Cold starting, not so good. Acceleration,,,,, Not so good, even the turbos'*
> 
> *Heavier, louder, clunkier, smellier, despite all the advances.*
> 
> And don't forget the mess at the pump.
> 
> Unless you have owned diesel vehicles you are not aware of these differences.
> 
> It is not an apples to apples comparison. More like Apples to Crabapples. Or pears.
> 
> I own several diesels. ave owned many over the years. My 350SDL Benz was my favorite. had an identical gas version 420 SEL. Loved the diesel best but then the fuel went to $3.50 per gallon. Not worth the trade off.
> 
> All that said, I do wish we had more of them available here. Diesel is easy to make from soybeans and cost effective. The by products are still excellent for annimal feed. But ETOH won the politics, not the market. So we burn food in our cars andpay taxes to do it.


 we just traded in our BMW X5d, 425lb. torque- it was very fast off the line


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## FrancSevin

YA DA YADA.

I said I like diesel but have yet to be blown away. Diesels are great for economy of fuel and Longevity. That some models are overcoming bad traits is good but the models praised here are high ticket cars, not the average Joe communters.
Besides, no one has talked about diesel availability and here, one cannot bring up their BMW.

Just not enough stations carry diesel. Yes you can always find it. Just not always covenient.

I currently drive two diesel vehicles. I am constantly amazed at the QT's and other station Chains that do not always carry it, even at high volume highway stops.

And I have too often been on a long road trip in strange waters and been in stress over finding a diesel outlet. For cars.

Perhaps if we have more diesel powered cars out there, more outlets will spring up. But diesel is just about the highest cost fuel at the pump. Making it's economy suspect. I do not see a trend forming in that direction.

I used to brag on my Benz having the flagship model running on the cheapest fuel. Getting 26 MPG on a 6,000 lb four door sedan. 
But at $3.80 a gallon I'm not sure that is worth the extra initial costs.

For vehicles that work, I'll take diesel anytime. For sporty little roadsters I'll take the gasoline version.

But this is about British cars vrs American cars. Jag hasn't had a diesel version since the 50's. So,What British or UK available diesels are out there?


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## SShepherd

FrancSevin said:


> YA DA YADA.
> 
> I said I like diesel but have yet to be blown away. Diesels are great for economy of fuel and Longevity. That some models are overcoming bad traits is good but the models praised here are high ticket cars, not the average Joe communters.
> Besides, no one has talked about diesel availability and here, one cannot bring up their BMW.
> 
> Just not enough stations carry diesel. Yes you can always find it. Just not always covenient.
> 
> I currently drive two diesel vehicles. I am constantly amazed at the QT's and other station Chains that do not always carry it, even at high volume highway stops.
> 
> And I have too often been on a long road trip in strange waters and been in stress over finding a diesel outlet. For cars.
> 
> Perhaps if we have more diesel powered cars out there, more outlets will spring up. But diesel is just about the highest cost fuel at the pump. Making it's economy suspect. I do not see a trend forming in that direction.
> 
> I used to brag on my Benz having the flagship model running on the cheapest fuel. Getting 26 MPG on a 6,000 lb four door sedan.
> But at $3.80 a gallon I'm not sure that is worth the extra initial costs.
> 
> For vehicles that work, I'll take diesel anytime. For sporty little roadsters I'll take the gasoline version.
> 
> But this is about British cars vrs American cars. Jag hasn't had a diesel version since the 50's. So,What British or UK available diesels are out there?


where the hell are you from anyway?

I was just answering you blanket statement about them being slow-- you know better.
BTW, I got about 7k in barry bucks, he decided it's a green car


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## Ice Queen

My everyday car is a Volvo V40 estate which is petrol, I use this for most purposes as it is reasonable fuel economy over my Land Rover Discovery, which is diesel.  I have to keep the Discovery for towing purposes, and it is not uneconomical for its capacity.  The disco is not the fastest car on the planet, I think the volvo is better, though much older.  It is a case of 'horses for courses'.  I also own an old Landrover 109 which originally was petrol, but now has a diesel engine, this thing pulls like a train, but is only used for going to Military rallies etc., slow and noisy, but it would probably go up the side of a house.  The old Jeep is petrol and is also slow and noisy and very uncomfortable to drive, but as it is mainly carried in the back of the horsebox, I don't luckily, have to drive it far.  I do have a couple of other old cars, both are petrol as in the days when they were made, we didn't have the choice of petrol or diesel.  As for straight roads, Bob, we do have some, but cars are not legally allowed to do more than 60 miles an hour on ordinary roads and are limited to 70 on motorways so it is the government, not the road conditions, that make for slow journeys - lorries, by the way are limited to 40 mph on ordinary roads, 50 mph on dual carriageways and 60 on motorways, though we can't actually do that as lorries (trucks to you) are fitted with limiters that operate at 56 mph.  This makes for very slow journeys in trucks, it takes me nine and a half hours, at least, to go to the War and Peace show in Kent, from where I live in Wales.


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## Melensdad

FrancSevin said:


> YA DA YADA.
> 
> I said I like diesel but have yet to be blown away. Diesels are great for economy of fuel and Longevity.* That some models are overcoming bad traits is good but the models praised here are high ticket cars, not the average Joe communters.*



The VW Jetta TDI is about $23,000.00 and the VW Passat TDI is about $26,000 . . . nicely equipped.

The Passat is aimed at the Honda Accord, Ford Fusion, Chevy Impala and Toyota Camry market . . . about as average as you can get!  The Jetta is aimed at the Honda Civic, Chevy Malibu, Nissan Sentra market . . . which may be a notch below average.


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## FrancSevin

Melensdad said:


> The VW Jetta TDI is about $23,000.00 and the VW Passat TDI is about $26,000 . . . nicely equipped.
> 
> The Passat is aimed at the Honda Accord, Ford Fusion, Chevy Impala and Toyota Camry market . . . about as average as you can get! The Jetta is aimed at the Honda Civic, Chevy Malibu, Nissan Sentra market . . . which may be a notch below average.


 
MB diesels are also lower in initial cost for the same bodelin petrol, but often at the expense of upgrades. BMW is not cheap no matter what.

These brands tend to be expensive to service. I never went to the Benz dealer without getting service for "free" because it was in the purchase contract or spending a grand because it wasn't. My BMW friends say the same. Don't know about the VW brand.

250K on my 1995 Dodge 3500. Only thing on the engine I have fixed was a fuel control valve. Cummin's puts together some fine machinery.
And, as it is turboe'd it is quick off the line.

But a V-10 it ain't. And 90 MPH is it on the top end. 
Sorry guys, diesels are just,,,,,slower.


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## Galvatron

read lots here on the diesel engine being loud,messy ect....not here in the UK i can assure you.

you can pretty much buy any make or model here with a diesel lump and they are all in a different league these days... quiet with plenty of grunt,from a 1.4 litre diesel right up to 3.o ltr and above ,the smaller lumps are yes sluggish but do a good job,most are di or tdi ect and like my neighbours bmw 325 diesel gives a return of 84mpg used with care or 28 driven like a animal,sounds like petrol and performs amazingly and from a car that is 4 years old and a price tag of £15,000...pretty damn neat.

yes we do have the added bonus of gas stations having 50/50 on pumps to serve both,this is the biggest problem the USA has...as for well gas and diesel is close on price well trust me mpg pays of on a diesel.

ps....Rusty drives a bucket of shit


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## Melensdad

FrancSevin said:


> Sorry guys, diesels are just,,,,,slower.



Yes, I believe we conceded that point about diesels being slower, despite the fact that I can spin the tires in my daughter's Jetta. 

But your points about stinky, loud, clanking, etc are all untrue in the modern TDI engines.

As for your point about them not being for the "average joe commuter" that is also disproven by the VW brand of diesels which are nicely equipped and priced to compete with other "average joe" cars like Honda, Ford, Nissan and Toyota.


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## SShepherd

FrancSevin said:


> MB diesels are also lower in initial cost for the same bodelin petrol, but often at the expense of upgrades. BMW is not cheap no matter what.
> 
> These brands tend to be expensive to service. I never went to the Benz dealer without getting service for "free" because it was in the purchase contract or spending a grand because it wasn't. My BMW friends say the same. Don't know about the VW brand.
> 
> 250K on my 1995 Dodge 3500. Only thing on the engine I have fixed was a fuel control valve. Cummin's puts together some fine machinery.
> And, as it is turboe'd it is quick off the line.
> 
> But a V-10 it ain't. And 90 MPH is it on the top end.
> Sorry guys, diesels are just,,,,,slower.


 
have you priced a new 3500 ? I think you'll be suprised.

as far as BMW service,_  I didn't pay for anything for 16months_


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## FrancSevin

SShepherd said:


> have you priced a new 3500 ? I think you'll be suprised.
> 
> as far as BMW service,_ I didn't pay for anything for 16months_


 
Buy a used one...I said service was free on items under the contract. Actually you did pay for it when you bought the car. Or did you think that was all FREE. If so, can I sell you something?

And for the record, you didn't buy a new BMW for $25K

Apples and Pears pal.

As for the Dodge 3500, I don't get your point. I never said it was cheap to buy. It is a real work truck, not a grocery getter.
( I did pay only $21K for it in 1995, brand spanking new)

And in that GG arena $25K is not cheap or average. One can get a GG econobox for $12to $15K

Apples and Pears again

Look, you like your diesel, I like mine. But they are not equal footing with Petrol any more than a Chevy Cobalt is the same as an Infinity M35.

If the two power plants were equal in performance and appeal, they would be equal in sales.

They ain't

Nuff said.


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## Galvatron

FrancSevin said:


> Buy a used one...I said service was free on items under the contract. Actually you did pay for it when you bought the car. Or did you think that was all FREE. If so, can I sell you something?
> 
> And for the record, you didn't buy a new BMW for $25K
> 
> Apples and Pears pal.
> 
> As for the Dodge 3500, I don't get your point. I never said it was cheap to buy. It is a real work truck, not a grocery getter.
> ( I did pay only $21K for it in 1995, brand spanking new)
> 
> And in that GG arena $25K is not cheap or average. One can get a GG econobox for $12to $15K
> 
> Apples and Pears again
> 
> Look, you like your diesel, I like mine. But they are not equal footing with Petrol any more than a Chevy Cobalt is the same as an Infinity M35.
> 
> If the two power plants were equal in performance and appeal, they would be equal in sales.
> 
> They ain't
> 
> Nuff said.



soooooo....apple or pear????...you seem to be confused but at the same time like them both????

sounds going south to me


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## FrancSevin

Galvatron said:


> soooooo....apple or pear????...you seem to be confused but at the same time like them both????
> 
> sounds going south to me


 
I have been clear, I like and own them both but,,,,,they are not the same. Both from the same genus of vehicles but distinctly different in flavor and use.

Apples and pears, is that too complicated a metaphor?


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## Galvatron

FrancSevin said:


> I have been clear, I like and own them both but,,,,,they are not the same. Both from the same genus of vehicles but distinctly different in flavor and use.
> 
> Apples and pears, is that too complicated a metaphor?



"but"....thats where you piss me off as you have lots of but and no real answer...get franc or fuck off...do i dont i????...got a view on all things unless you want a opinion that people give a fuck about....

come on ff whats this all about???? ff giving up on being real or what???


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## FrancSevin

Galvatron said:


> "but"....thats where you piss me off as you have lots of but and no real answer...get franc or fuck off...do i dont i????...got a view on all things unless you want a opinion that people give a fuck about....
> 
> come on ff whats this all about???? ff giving up on being real or what???


 
So I was right, that metaphor WAS too complicated. My apologies sir.

I did answer the question...I like both diesel and Petrol. I favor one over the other for different purposes 

Are you suggesting I absolutely must chose? Now that sir is wanky.


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## Galvatron

FrancSevin said:


> So I was right, that metaphor WAS too complicated. My apologies sir.



answer the "but" mr educated ???simple???


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## FrancSevin

Galvatron said:


> answer the "but" mr educated ???simple???


I could engage in this tit for tat crap all day galvie. But the Forum belongs to everyone here. So ,,I'll leave you to stew in whatever that is which has made you so lovable today..






Bye.


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## Galvatron

FrancSevin said:


> I could engage in this tit for tat crap all day galvie. But the Forum belongs to everyone here. So ,,I'll leave you to stew in whatever that is which has made you so lovable today..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bye.



try not to rush back...love on a postcard...via i dont give a shit.

get your votes elsewhere


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## Ice Queen

So FrancSeven, basically you agree with me, that they both have their uses and disadvantages, as I said 'horses for courses' or as you said 'apples and pears' - different expressions, same meaning.


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