# War is an ugly thing



## bczoom

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

John Stuart-Mill


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## Treefriend

Is this about Bill O'Reilly?


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## BigAl RIP

bczoom said:


> "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
> 
> John Stuart-Mill


 
 War should be the last option we have . If by any chance we can keep from getting to this point it should be considered .

 If we sacrifice our freedom to  do this them we need to reconsider our options . allen hutson 2010


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## bczoom

Treefriend said:


> Is this about Bill O'Reilly?


Haven't heard Bill lately so I'm not sure what you're referring to.

The quote is circa Civil War.

It's something I remember from about 25 years ago that came to my mind tonight and thought the words seemed relevant in today's climate.


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## loboloco

War is diplomacy by other means.
War is both the most glorious and mos beastial thing invented by the mind of man


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## EastTexFrank

loboloco said:


> War is diplomacy by other means.
> War is both the most glorious and mos beastial thing invented by the mind of man



Except that these days we try to sanitize it.  

I always remember what my history teacher taught me many years ago before political correctness was even invented.

The Romans defeated the Carthaginians in the First Punic War.

The Romans defeated the Carthaginians in the Second Punic War.

The Romans defeated the Carthaginians in the Third Punic War.  They killed all the men, sold the women and children into slavery, razed the city to the ground and destroyed all the surrounding farm land.

There was no Fourth Punic War.


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## pirate_girl

Loboloco/Jeff has seen the worst end of anything when it comes to war, and I say that as a friend who's known him for quite some time now.


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## bczoom

War is not about who's right, it's about who's left.


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## RobsanX

Regime change in Iraq is not worth US soldiers dying, and all the other consequences.


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## loboloco

It is both my duty and my greatest honor to place myself between my friends and countrymen and those who would do them harm.

If you would have peace prepare for war.

The most expensive thing in the world is a second rate military.


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## loboloco

Thank you, Lord, for what we are about to receive
USMC WWII.


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## rc2james

My dad was a decorated veteran of several major battles in the European theater during WWII and he rejoined for the Korean conflict. He never said all that much except while drunk and then, they were some of the saddest stories that you could imagine, usually what he saw involving civilians primarily children. Those memories dug at his soul until the day he died.


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## loboloco

Come home with your shield, or on it.
Roman mothers to their sons.


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## darroll

If you don't like war, don't attack other countries or give the attackers a safe place to hide.


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## PATMCGROYNE

*Re: War is NOT an ugly thing*

War is similar to child-birth; making the baby is fun; preparing for the birth is fun; but those are from this man's perspective.  But when one considers the final delivery, there is joy, despite pain.   The sort of joy that overwhelms the last warrior standing, covered in sweat that reeks of expended adrenalin,  having pi$$ed and dirtied your shorts, on your knees praying, shaking without control.   Finally hearing sound.   And for me there was ultimate Peace: I WON!  I and one other of squad.   War was beautiful then because it was over for us for  awhile, we two were alive, and The Cause we fought for had conquered.  Shear luck, and  clean weapons.   But you can't forget.    It will happen again.   Every night.   Thank God for Vodka.    Pat


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## loboloco

I will make this land a desert and call it peace.    
Genghis Khan.


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## loboloco

Poor, brave bastards, but damn what a ride


  [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica,  sans-serif][SIZE=+1]The Charge Of The Light Brigade[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial,  Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+2]
[/SIZE][/FONT]      [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]by Alfred, Lord Tennyson[/SIZE][/FONT]      [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Memorializing  Events in the Battle of Balaclava, October 25, 1854
Written 1854
  [/SIZE][/FONT]      [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

  [SIZE=-1]Half a league half a league, 
Half a league onward, 
All in the valley of Death 
Rode the six hundred: 
'Forward, the Light Brigade! 
Charge for the guns' he said: 
Into the valley of Death 
Rode the six hundred. 

'Forward, the Light Brigade!' 
Was there a man dismay'd ? 
Not tho' the soldier knew 
Some one had blunder'd: 
Theirs not to make reply, 
Theirs not to reason why, 
Theirs but to do & die, 
Into the valley of Death 
Rode the six hundred. 

Cannon to right of them, 
Cannon to left of them, 
Cannon in front of them 
Volley'd & thunder'd; 
Storm'd at with shot and shell, 
Boldly they rode and well, 
Into the jaws of Death, 
Into the mouth of Hell 
Rode the six hundred. 

Flash'd all their sabres bare, 
Flash'd as they turn'd in air 
Sabring the gunners there, 
Charging an army while 
All the world wonder'd: 
Plunged in the battery-smoke 
Right thro' the line they broke; 
Cossack & Russian 
Reel'd from the sabre-stroke,
Shatter'd & sunder'd. 
Then they rode back, but not 
Not the six hundred. 

Cannon to right of them, 
Cannon to left of them, 
Cannon behind them 
Volley'd and thunder'd; 
Storm'd at with shot and shell, 
While horse & hero fell, 
They that had fought so well 
Came thro' the jaws of Death, 
Back from the mouth of Hell, 
All that was left of them, 
Left of six hundred. 

When can their glory fade? 
O the wild charge they made! 
All the world wonder'd. 
Honour the charge they made! 
Honour the Light Brigade, 
Noble six hundred![/SIZE][/FONT]


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## loboloco

Kind of says it all.


*Tommy*

 I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
    O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
    But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
    The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
    O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
    For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
    But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
    The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
    O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
    Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
    But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
    The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
    O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
    While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
    But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
    There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
    O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
    For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
    But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
    An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
    An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!


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## loboloco

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCrnF844_ww"]YouTube- Heather Alexander - March of Cambreadth[/ame]



When you get this in your gut, then you know what war is like.


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## loboloco

Lora, this makes me think of you and all the others who give so much of themselves.


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9Sp1RESMw8"]YouTube- 'Salute to the Nurses' SSgt. Barry Sadler (Ballads of the Green Berets)[/ame]


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## pirate_girl

loboloco said:


> Lora, this makes me think of you and all the others who give so much of themselves.
> 
> 
> YouTube- 'Salute to the Nurses' SSgt. Barry Sadler (Ballads of the Green Berets)




Thank you, Sir Jeffrey.


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## loboloco

Not sir, I was a dogface.


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## pirate_girl

loboloco said:


> Not sir, I was a dogface.



You're a gentleman, so it's SIR, sir..


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## Danang Sailor

loboloco said:


> War is diplomacy by other means.
> War is both the most glorious and mos beastial thing invented by the mind of man



Quotes from Robert Anson Heinlein:

War is not violence and killing, pure and simple; war is controlled violence, for a purpose. The purpose of war is to support your government's decisions by force. The purpose is never to kill the enemy just to be killing him but to make  him do what you want him to do. Not killing... but controlled and purposeful violence.

**********

Anyone who clings to the historically untrue - and thoroughly immoral - doctrine 'that  violence never settles anything' I would advise to conjure up the ghosts of  Napoleon Bonaparte and of the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The  ghost of Hitler could referee, and the jury might well be the Dodo, the Great Auk and the Passenger Pigeon. Violence, naked force, has settled more  issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is  wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedom.

**********

You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.

**********

What are the marks of a sick culture? It is a bad sign when the people of a country stop  identifying themselves with the country and start identifying with a group. A racial group. Or a religion. Or a language. Anything, as long as it isn't the whole population.

**********

All of these make sense to me, as they mirror the world as I have known it.  That last one makes me sad, as it describes the situation I see around me every day.  The events of 9/11 actually gave me hope, as we all seemed to identify as Americans then, but we have since gone back to seeing ourselves as hyphens --  African-Americans, Mexican-Americans, Left-Hand-Gum-Chewing-Americans -- anything except plain Americans.  We are Balkanizing ourselves with these hyphens, and can't seem to see that it is destroying us.

I fear for my children.


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## darroll

It may be that perpetual peace can only be brought about by perpetual war.
Unknown author

If the world wanted peace, they would stop killing American's.


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## tsaw

Hows about: If the world wanted peace humans would stop killing humans?


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## darroll

That would work.


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## loboloco

If you would have peace, prepare for war.


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