Oh crap! shorted wire...

[rockaukum]

Today I went out to put the cat on the trailer for a trip tomorrow. Had difficulty getting it to start. The starter would engage but the engine would not start. I tried started fluid but no luck. Then nothing from the starter but a click from the solenoid. I did some trouble shooting to figure things out and found that the cable from the solenoid to the starter had shorted out due to it rubbing on the engine block. The starter is fried and I need to replace I took it in and had it tested).
My question is this: With the cable shorting out, would that prevent the engine from firing? I ran the cat two days prior with zero issues, fired right up. As a note, while cranking, it would momentarily catch like it wanted to run but as soon as it did, it stopped?
Needless to say, I am baffled with this. Any insight would be great!
ra
71 thiokol 1202B with Ford industrial 200 straight six.

 

[andyv916]

Do you have electronic ignition or points in the distributor ? just thinking maybe there could be a problem there since the heavy 12v+ cable put voltage to ground .

 

[BoyToys]

Weird. Just because the 12V feed to the starter solenoid shorted to ground, if anything it would have blown a fuse (if one exists) and shouldn't have done anything else other than toast the wire if no fuse. Shouldn't hurt the solenoid or the starter motor. Just my view from 40,000 feet.
Check for spark at the coil. If you still have points, just manually open and close them by turning the engine (or short between the gap with a screwdriver to simulate closing and opening). A process of elimination

 

[rockaukum]

Thanks guys, I have the pertronix ignition in this. That was a thought as before I had issues with that and it turned out to be a grounding issue. The distributor lock down bolt was loose and had oil / grease / dirt blocking the ground. I'll run a check on that once I get the replacement starter back in on Monday. The one thing I did find was that the vacuum advance mount at the distributor was loose, just two screws.
I am unaware of any fuse so if someone has knowledge, please share.

 

[BoyToys]

Will be following as you get it resolved. I have no idea if my feed to the solenoid is fused or not, without pulling the instrument panel to look.
Pertronix has some mixed reviews...mostly positive but a few problematic. Just 2 months ago I installed one "just because". Used their newer version supposedly immune to failure if you leave the key on for too long without running the engine. So far so good, but no more than an hour's worth of run time sitting in the driveway.

 

[rockaukum]

Yeah, I had that issue and dealt with their C/S. The guy was great and very helpful. They replaced the unit N/C. I keep the old one thinking My issue was the ground problem at the distributor. It was his advice that led me to find the bad connection on the distributor. I used to carry a set of points just in case. They say they have resolved the "key on" issue but I try to not leave the key on just in case.... I P/U the replacement starter tomorrow and hope to get it installed.
A old mechanic friend I spoke with felt that with the cable being shorted out to the engine block would prevent the motor from catching. I have a replacement cable that is longer and I will reroute it away from the motor and hope for the best.

 

[zspryte]

Just a shot in the dark - The short could have dropped the voltage "everywhere", including at the coil, resulting in a weak spark-plug spark. Some engines always send the full voltage to the coil. In others, e.g. Fords of your vintage, a resistor is used to lower the voltage to the coil when running, to extend the coils life, and a circuit provides full voltage to the coil to generate a stronger spark to help starting when the starter is engaged. In either setup, the short may have made the spark too weak to start the engine. Low voltage is also consistent with the starter frying. As voltage to a starter decreases, the starter draws more current which, at a high enough level, will melt a wire inside it.

 

[rockaukum]

Today, while on hold with SW (an hour as of now) I looked at the back of the panel for the "fuse". Nothing obvious to me, but there is a block, possibly some kind of fuse (?) but it has 12v in and 12v out when tested. It is shown in the picture with the pencil pointing at it on the diagram. Also included the wiring diagram but The part is not noted? Any insight to what this is and does? I thought I'd add it here due to BoyToys question. YES, I know it is a mess back there!
I hope to P/U the started today and will update but I am hopeful that the summation from zsprite and my mechanic friend are on point with this.
ra

 

[redsqwrl]

Your possibly pointing to the power supply for the instrumentation.

The heavy cable from battery to solenoid is not fused. Nor is the solenoid to starter.

Your comment that the starter is toasted should not not related to the starter cable going to ground. That cable to engine short would have stunck/smelled really bad.

I think you have two problems.

A chaffed starter wire will pull the system below 11.7 v and your elctronic ignition is a crap shoot at 10v.
The only time your system would be shorted would be while cranking.
Cranking power is only on the ballast/coil resitor while cranking. Letting go of the key switchs the current to the coil/ballast. You can get them to catch with healty spark and good cranking speed. You lost your cranking speed with the chaffed wire.

 

[rockaukum]

Thanks redsqwrl. That thing is supplied from the key on position. If it shows the same voltage as the battery, the keyed switch and the output of the "thing", what is its purpose? I'd guess it is fused in order to protect the instrumentation?
As for the starter? it is toast anyways, possible from my dumb A.. getting inpatient as the motor did not catch. Whats the general rule? 30S on 2M off?
ra

 

[redsqwrl]

Thanks redsqwrl. That thing is supplied from the key on position. If it shows the same voltage as the battery, the keyed switch and the output of the "thing", what is its purpose? I'd guess it is fused in order to protect the instrumentation?
As for the starter? it is toast anyways, possible from my dumb A.. getting inpatient as the motor did not catch. Whats the general rule? 30S on 2M off?
ra

You dont want 12v in your fuel tank. Its purpose is to maked pulsed 3v (typically)

Thanks redsqwrl. That thing is supplied from the key on position. If it shows the same voltage as the battery, the keyed switch and the output of the "thing", what is its purpose? I'd guess it is fused in order to protect the instrumentation?
As for the starter? it is toast anyways, possible from my dumb A.. getting inpatient as the motor did not catch. Whats the general rule? 30S on 2M off?
ra

Yeah i abuse the 30 and 2 rule myself. Starters are cheap and easy to change on a v4, so ive been know to over crank.

 

[rockaukum]

Got it. Thank you. When I put a volt meter on it, it shows a constant battery voltage? I am also currently having issues with the fuel gauge. I bench test the gauge as well as the sending unit and both test okay independently. The fuel gauge has never worked since my ownership. Not a pressing concern as there is a 50 gallon tank in the bed and I have the "stick" to ensure I am good for the trip.
ra
This is an aftermarket gauge and it is marked 12v? The bench testing that ZI have seen / read about shows the gauge hooked directly to 12v?

 

[zspryte]

A while back had a starter go out and replaced it. Within a few weeks the new one went bad too. When getting a replacement under warranty, the NAPA guy told me to check the battery voltage with no load and while cranking. With load the voltage was down a couple volts which fired the starter for the reason above. Turned out the battery has a bad cell. Replaced the battery and long lived the starter. I hope you have the same luck after fixing your shorted wire.

 

[zspryte]

In Spryte manuals the thing your pen is pointing to is labeled "Voltage Regulator, Dash Unit". Per Redsqwrl, a lot of older gauges used lower voltage, e.g., 1969 Mustang has 5 volt gauges and older GM's used 6 volt, and some were pulsed and others not. Also gauges need the voltage to be constant to read correctly - even12 volt ones. Older ones relied on dash voltage regulators while most newer ones internally control it.

Just curious, was the voltage the same on both sides of the regulator and what was it when you measured it? As SW sold 12 volt gauges in the 1960s and later, I wonder what voltage the original gauges were.

 

[rockaukum]

Thank you zspryte. The voltage was the same form the battery (the one I was using to start it originally), the same at the key on, and the same on both sides of the voltage regulator which was 12.3v. I did not check the voltage under load but can do that soon. Good point, on the potential damage to the starter. I have a call into sprite Improvement to determine what it should be and I will respond with their response once I hear back.
I picked up the replacement starter today at Oreilly's Auto. He said it has a lifetime warranty. I asked what that means to me. His response was anything short of bringing it back in pieces, you are covered. I have the receipt in a safe place! I got it installed and ran a new wire, zip tied out of the way. She fired right up! WooHoo! Glad the Pertronix was not damaged as well.
I have a new voltage gauge and a new fuel gauge coming in soon. I am not going to install anything until I get confirmation on the wiring situation.
This is a fun machine when it runs good which is more often than not but when the gremlins come out.... very frustrating for sure.
Thanks to the above members for chiming in and offering assistance with the starter! My thought is this:
1. The cable was shorted out meaning reduced volts to the starter as well as the ignition leading to no start.
2. Due to my lack of patience, I toasted the starter. Man it sounded horrible when they tested it.
3. I'm certain there are other options but I think the guys above covered it spot on!
Thank you all once again. On to electrical....

 

[redsqwrl]

Do u have a v4 or a inline six?

Fuel and oil gauges get a pulsed voltage its like 3 or 4 volts....

 

[rockaukum]

This has the Industrial Ford 200 six cylinder motor. BUT... the gauges have been changed to SW gauges. The install sheets note 12v.
The voltage regulator (as noted by zspryte) has 12v in and 12v out, I have only used the volt meter, perhaps I should put a test light on them to identify if it pulses or not? I have only checked this with the engine off, not sure if that would change with the motor running or not. Gauges are arriving today. Temp and fuel gauges. I look forward to any input you may provide! Thanks!
ra

 

[zspryte]

Had some fun digging around and found a 1976 Steward Warner catalog ( https://www.stewartwarner.com/wp-co...art-Warner-Corp-Product-Catalog-1976_0001.pdf ). There are fuel, temperature and pressure gauges in the same style and ranges as in my 1967 Spryte.

In 1976 the electrical gauges SW sold were essentially all 12 volt. The switch to 12 volt systems in cars and trucks happened in the mid 1950s so 12 volt gauges likely emerged around then too. The reason for pulsing is to stabilize the gauge's needle; SW uses a two coil system with fluid to damp its needle which I think means pulsing is not required.

 

[rockaukum]

Interesting info zspryte.
I went down today to take a look at the fuel sender and gauge. I put a test light on the tank and turned the key on, engine not running. The light was steady and not pulsing. I am still learning a lot on the electrical front. Is the engine supposed to be running for the pulsing to show up? I would think not as with the key on, the gauge normally shows the fuel level, at least on my other vehicles but they are not old like the cat. I tried to contact SW yesterday and was on hold for an hour before I gave up. Tax day must now be a holiday?
Anyway, the search for info continues as I want to be certain before I hook any new gauges up. I have replaced too many already!
ra

 

[zspryte]

The regulator does its thing any time is gets power - engine running or not. The vintage car folks say a pulsed regulator is like an on/off switch and produces a square wave. The frequency is too fast to see by eye and volt meters show the time average value. The same folks claim when these regulators break, the output is usually zero volts or the same as the input voltage. Still looking for specs on the output voltage.

Tad funny you measured the same voltage on the input and output sides. You might discount the output wire from the regulator and with the key on measure the voltage on the discounted wire. It should be zero. If not, the gauges are getting power by another means and that's why both readings were the same.

 

[redsqwrl]

Ok starter.
With a 200 six im
Pretty sure u have a fender/tunnel mounted solenoid.

Ide be surprised if your battery cable is energized beyond the solenoid. (Unless cranking)

 

[rockaukum]

zspryte, I disconnected the output side from the regulator, zero reading there. My thought is the voltage regulator is bad. However with the three gauges that are powered from it are all new, not working, but new, and they operate on 12v, so I'm under the assumption that I will disconnect it permanently. Still doing leg work on getting the confirmation of the correct wiring. I may end up pulling new wires to each sender. Confused as they test out okay with continuity and also tested to a good ground and no continuity....
redsqwrl, Yep the starter is good to go now. She fired right up! Correct it is a remote solenoid mounted on drivers side of the cowl. Fortunately I did not ruin that and the pertronix ignition! The starter got toasted from my lack of patience. Did not let the starter cool down, just cranked away... Stupid is stupid does they say. You are correct, no power beyond the solenoid unless I am pushing the magic button.
I hope to head out with the cat on Thursday but still working on the gauges.
ra

 

[zspryte]

Correction - the voltage pulses from a pulsed regulator aren't super fast and can be viewed with an analog volt meter but not a digital one. Some folks say that a mechanical regulator needs a load on it for the pulses to occur.

You measured the voltage on the output wire - right? (Just making sure I'm reading your words correctly.) Good to know gauge power is only coming from the regulator consistent with the drawing, and no wires were added where they shouldn't have been. Good idea to disconnect things until you figure the regulator out.

I'll try to measure the voltage on my cat's regulator and gauges this weekend as they work and are original.

 

[BoyToys]

A lot of good info here on gauges and regulators and such. My voltage gauge reads just shy of 6 volts, the ammeter works, the engine temperature gauge works, the tach is toasted, and the oil pressure gauge has been basically not working...10psi only...and I've confirmed 50 psi with a remote test gauge. Sender or gauge or both are suspect; I've bench tested and taken both apart for cleaning etc. The problem is finding a 6 volt replacement gauge so I just said screw it and ordered an Autometer brand gauge with paired sender. 12V of course, so I'll be running a dedicated 12V feed just to it.

 

[Idaho IMP]

I just went through this on my IMP. I have original Stewart Warner fuel, oil, and temp gauges. I found a guy on eBay that a handful of old 1950{s FoMoCo constant voltage regulators. I had shorted out the one I had and had to replace it. The newer vr’s put out 12 volts, which is too much. The fuel gauge danced all over the place!
Here is the Part number for the correct CVR’S I found on Flea-Bay:

NOS 1959 Lincoln Instrument Cluster Voltage Regulator FoMoCo B9LF-10804-A

 

[rockaukum]

zspryte, I only have the digital meter. Yes, no voltage on the output wire and no continuity to ground either. Power comes from the key on to the regulator then to the three gauges noted, oil, fuel, and temp. On one video I watched on YT. he used a test light and it showed the pulsing light and if memory serves me correctly, it was not flashing very quickly.
On another note, got the Ahooga horn working! Small victories.... hopefully it will lead to other victories!
Good to see others may learn from this as I have gained a lot of knowledge, What I do with it remains to be seen. I heard back from SI, he says the ford number is C6DZ-10804-A for a constant instrument voltage regulator. Said I could reference 1966-1968 Falcon. Interchange part number GR-510.
I hope to speak with the tech guy at SW in the morning. My hope is that I can bail on the voltage regulator all together since the gauges are 12v. But, I need to get out and stretch the legs, so off to the mountains I go for a day off with the skis! I need the reset.
It is admirable and cool that you all are able to keep yours original! That would be nice but with my limited knowledge with these, just does not seem a good route for me.
I'll let you know what I find out.
ra

 

[redsqwrl]

While your resetting, i have a new old stock dash in a box. Ill dig it out and see if those parts on on the dash. (I never compared if it was a super imp or normal imp.

And as far as tachs go. Most of them are still good but the battery is just dead in it.

 

[rockaukum]

Just about out the door and I contacted SW. Robert was great. Omit the voltage regulator and direct wire 12v from key on to the gauges as mine, temp oil and fuel, are all new SW 12v gauges. The rest is ground from gauge to chassis, signal direct to sender. confirm (again) ground on the tank.
At this time I plan on rewiring these gauges and deleting the old wires as a measure to make sure I am getting a fresh start.
I may be back in time to start this later today and I will update on the progress.
redsqwrl, Yeah that would be interesting to know. Also, if it has the regulator, what does it test at with a digital meter? Just curious if the pulsing shows up or not as suggested by zspryte.
Thanks again for all the help.
ra

 

[zspryte]

The original dash setup grounds the instrument panel via screws/contact to the frame/chassis. I added a panel ground wire so the panel is grounded - mounted or not.

 

[BoyToys]

I just went through this on my IMP. I have original Stewart Warner fuel, oil, and temp gauges. I found a guy on eBay that a handful of old 1950{s FoMoCo constant voltage regulators. I had shorted out the one I had and had to replace it. The newer vr’s put out 12 volts, which is too much. The fuel gauge danced all over the place!
Here is the Part number for the correct CVR’S I found on Flea-Bay:

NOS 1959 Lincoln Instrument Cluster Voltage Regulator FoMoCo B9LF-10804-A

My gauges are all 6v made by Actron, which I think was or is now a Bosch company. Thiokol may have switched to them in later years for all I know (mine is 1977).