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First hydrogen car. Could this be true?
- Thread starter Doc
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chowderman
Well-known member
it's true:
www.hyundaiusa.com
of course, fueling stations are too easy . . .
2023 Nexo Fuel Cell | Vehicle Overview | Hyundai USA
Click here to learn more about the 2023 NEXO Fuel Cell, the first dedicated hydrogen-powered SUV with an estimated range of 380 miles and zero emissions.
www.hyundaiusa.com
of course, fueling stations are too easy . . .
Thats a good start and the direction things should go. I am hoping soon the technology would advance to the point where you fill up with water and an on board hydrogen generator would do the rest. Also would be much safer than having a tank of compressed hydrogen.
So, not to be a naysayer, I think Hydrogen is a great concept. However, thousands of cars, cars spewing water vapor on the pavement, would be fine all summer. But come winter, the streets would be glazed with ice.
its distilled water just bottle it
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chowderman
Well-known member
regrets to add, one needs a nuclear power plant to generate enough KW to split the water into H and O on a commercial scale.
and even that is pretty iffy - $s and donuts wise.
hydrolysis happens at voltages as low as 1.5v - which leaping off a large solar array . . . looks OMG! it's FREE!
however at such low power levels one could expect to generate enough hydrogen to fill up your tank once every 12-16 months . . .
somethin' about that "no free lunch" idea just keep making the rounds . .
and even that is pretty iffy - $s and donuts wise.
hydrolysis happens at voltages as low as 1.5v - which leaping off a large solar array . . . looks OMG! it's FREE!
however at such low power levels one could expect to generate enough hydrogen to fill up your tank once every 12-16 months . . .
somethin' about that "no free lunch" idea just keep making the rounds . .
If they have there thinking caps on, if you are making Hydrogen from water and the exhaust is water. if you have a way to make the Hydrogen onboard right before its injected in to the engine, the whole thing could be a close loop. Water goes into a tank, the exhaust is water that would also return to the tank to be used again. There would be no exhaust exit.
One big problem. From where does the original base energy to do that come?
You are talking about a perpetual motion machine. Implausible.
It will be difficult to catch the wave that EV's have already made. If this technology is successful at the right moment in time
it will get adopted. But from what I have seen and read; it will be a decade before it is commercially ready for sale.
That is a very long time. In that time frame the electrical grid will be very different than it is today. Already here in the sticks
we are getting a huge upgrade to the amount of electricity at the local level. This State is a leader in wind energy, and when
this is coupled with battery storage at grid scale all will change, wind and solar will make a much better alternative to what we
have today. Energy price is roughly equivalent to how much heat or BTU it a particular form of energy contains. That said we
waste over 60% of the heat in a typical car through it's cooling system. This is why electric is cheaper, as long as it is priced accordingly.
Hydrogen stored in a vessel in the vehicle is a bad idea. Recently a hydrogen powered bus I believe exploded while fueling,
killing several people. Remember the Hindenburg? Fuel cells are different but have been known to us for decades, yet no real world
changing thing has ever come from it with decades of trying. I hope this will change.
If hydrogen fueled cars comes to pass, let the market forces determine if it is viable. I think the same for EV's should be true as well.
In the long run I believe we should be building at least a dozen nuclear power stations across the nation ASAP.
Cheap energy lifts all boats.
it will get adopted. But from what I have seen and read; it will be a decade before it is commercially ready for sale.
That is a very long time. In that time frame the electrical grid will be very different than it is today. Already here in the sticks
we are getting a huge upgrade to the amount of electricity at the local level. This State is a leader in wind energy, and when
this is coupled with battery storage at grid scale all will change, wind and solar will make a much better alternative to what we
have today. Energy price is roughly equivalent to how much heat or BTU it a particular form of energy contains. That said we
waste over 60% of the heat in a typical car through it's cooling system. This is why electric is cheaper, as long as it is priced accordingly.
Hydrogen stored in a vessel in the vehicle is a bad idea. Recently a hydrogen powered bus I believe exploded while fueling,
killing several people. Remember the Hindenburg? Fuel cells are different but have been known to us for decades, yet no real world
changing thing has ever come from it with decades of trying. I hope this will change.
If hydrogen fueled cars comes to pass, let the market forces determine if it is viable. I think the same for EV's should be true as well.
In the long run I believe we should be building at least a dozen nuclear power stations across the nation ASAP.
Cheap energy lifts all boats.
If you make hydrogen from water the waste product is Oxygen. Mix those two back together and you go boom!
Injected into an engine does not solve the 60 of the heat energy wasted cooling the thing. I know I love ICE engines to.
But the thermodynamics are not lying about the efficiency of the IC engine.
Another of the ways Hydrogen is produced now and we have plenty is natural gas but the current goberment is antifossil fuel’s so that puts a crimp in my royalties thanks JB for another reduction of my income!
path
www.energy.gov
Subsequently, in what is called the "water-gas shift reaction," the carbon monoxide and steam are reacted using a catalyst to produce carbon dioxide and more hydrogen. In a final process step called "pressure-swing adsorption," carbon dioxide and other impurities are removed from the gas stream, leaving essentially pure hydrogen. Steam reforming can also be used to produce hydrogen from other fuels, such as ethanol, propane, or even gasoline.
thanks JB for another reduction of my income!path
Hydrogen Production: Natural Gas Reforming
Natural gas reforming is an advanced and mature production process that builds upon the existing natural gas pipeline delivery infrastructure.
Steam-Methane Reforming
Most hydrogen produced today in the United States is made via steam-methane reforming, a mature production process in which high-temperature steam (700°C–1,000°C) is used to produce hydrogen from a methane source, such as natural gas. In steam-methane reforming, methane reacts with steam under 3–25 bar pressure (1 bar = 14.5 psi) in the presence of a catalyst to produce hydrogen, carbon monoxide, and a relatively small amount of carbon dioxide. Steam reforming is endothermic—that is, heat must be supplied to the process for the reaction to proceed.Subsequently, in what is called the "water-gas shift reaction," the carbon monoxide and steam are reacted using a catalyst to produce carbon dioxide and more hydrogen. In a final process step called "pressure-swing adsorption," carbon dioxide and other impurities are removed from the gas stream, leaving essentially pure hydrogen. Steam reforming can also be used to produce hydrogen from other fuels, such as ethanol, propane, or even gasoline.
One big problem. From where does the original base energy to do that come?
You are talking about a perpetual motion machine. Implausible
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A hydrogen fuel cell works by converting hydrogen into electricity via a chemical reaction1. Hydrogen gas enters the fuel cell through the anode, where a catalyst splits it into protons and electrons2345. The protons travel through an electrolyte membrane to the cathode, while the electrons go through an external circuit, generating electricity2345. Oxygen from the air enters the fuel cell through the cathode, where it reacts with the protons to form water23.
From where comes the original energy to power the fuel cell?
What you fill at the pump is Hydrogen into the fuel cell. It cannot use that energy to create/split water to a new supply of hydrogen without some loss. Add to that what powers the IC engine and you have a zero gain of hydrogen.
Energy is a conversion. Mass to energy or energy to mass. It is not created out of thin air or water.
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Im not a scientist but the way I understand it, water flows through a membrane sandwiched between an electrode and an anode. when electricity is applied, through a electrolysis process it separates the Hydrogen and oxygen as a gas, then when combusted it turn back into liquid water.
I understand how to generate Hydrogen from water. That takes primary energy.
You are missing my point. What makes pure hydrogen available in the first step? That powers the IC engine to drive the wheels expending the energy from the Hydrogen mass. It cannot then be re-used?
You would have some form of battery or capacitor to get the process going then the ICE engine can produce the electricity needed from there. Right now you fill a tank with compressed hydrogen ( big explosion potential ) what I'm hoping for is engineers to make an on board hydrogen generator that would make hydrogen from a water tank, inject it into the engine, then put the water from the exhaust back into the tank. Im sure it can be done at some point, just not sure when
Explain to me why liquid water from the exhaust could not be used to make hydrogen if the hydrogen generator was in the vehicle?
The generator turns water into hydrogen/oxygen gas, the combustion process turns it back into liquid water.
I didn't say that it could not be. What I asked is what energy source would you suggest is used to do it?
The fuel cell cannot be the source of it's own power.
It seems the whole idea/concept is Hydrogen is produced like LG or Propane and compressed into tank storage. IT is consumed via the IC engine to produce motive power. Like a conventional gasoline or propane engine, the energy is consumed via the conversion to HP in the IC engine. What purpose is served by making Hydrogen on board via petroleum products.
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Who said anything about petroleum, the power to start the process would come from a battery or capacitor, then when you start the engine, a generator run by the engine could supply the power needed to keep the process going. One problem that would have to be overcome is cold climates freezing the water. if this could be made to work, you would not need hydrogen filling stations and the vehicle would be a lot safer from explosion in an accident.
I suggested external petroleum because you will need more power than the IC engine can produce from a generator run off the Hydrogen supplied.
The energy loss to heat in the IC engine is 60%. That would make the closed loop recovery of the energy impossible.
You are suggesting a self sustaining reaction so long as fresh supply of water was injected.
I suspect that has been tried.
Physics suggest it doesn't work.
Apologies my good friend but,,,
I give up.
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It doesn't work right now but there are folks working on it that think it will at some point, remember the first computers were as big as a house, now your phone in your pocket has vastly more processing capability.
chowderman
Well-known member
it does not work and cannot work. did you watch the video?
every transformation energy to energy and energy to work causes a net loss of energy - nothing is 100% efficient.
the energy required to dis-associate the hydrogen from the oxygen does not produce enough 'H-H-O fuel' to 'pay' for the energy consumed.
the ICE/generator/alternator combo is so inefficient that 100% of its electrical output is insufficient to generate the H-H-O fuel needed to run the engine
in a similar vein, using H-H-O fuel to power a hydrogen fuel cell (vs. an ICE) is about 60% efficient - a tidy increase over an ICE.
but take note, you've lost 40% of the energy required to produce the fuel . . . . and . . . . you haven't moved the car yet . . .
a step-up transformer is required to provide the voltage needed for drive motors - transformers are not 100% efficient - a lot of energy is lost to heat, just like an ICE.
could the water be recycled? yes - but since it is pure water, and a very poor electrical conductor, you'll need to add some impurities + (more) energy to be break it down into H-H-O, again.
basically, a hydrogen fuel cell cannot power even itself, much less itself + a car . . .
every transformation energy to energy and energy to work causes a net loss of energy - nothing is 100% efficient.
the energy required to dis-associate the hydrogen from the oxygen does not produce enough 'H-H-O fuel' to 'pay' for the energy consumed.
the ICE/generator/alternator combo is so inefficient that 100% of its electrical output is insufficient to generate the H-H-O fuel needed to run the engine
in a similar vein, using H-H-O fuel to power a hydrogen fuel cell (vs. an ICE) is about 60% efficient - a tidy increase over an ICE.
but take note, you've lost 40% of the energy required to produce the fuel . . . . and . . . . you haven't moved the car yet . . .
a step-up transformer is required to provide the voltage needed for drive motors - transformers are not 100% efficient - a lot of energy is lost to heat, just like an ICE.
could the water be recycled? yes - but since it is pure water, and a very poor electrical conductor, you'll need to add some impurities + (more) energy to be break it down into H-H-O, again.
basically, a hydrogen fuel cell cannot power even itself, much less itself + a car . . .
I know it doesn't work right now but think about what didn't work in the passed that now does. Yes there are mechanical losses keeping it from happening and the power required to make hydrogen from water breaks the bank. But there will be advancements in making hydrogen in the future that may not require so much energy. If everyone in the passed only focused on what didn't work, you would still be walking everywhere.
And yes I watched the video, the equipment used was bought off of eBay for a couple hundred bucks and the engine is a harbor freight lawnmower engine. Not exactly the most advanced or efficient available, just the cheapest. It did work in a limited fashion but not enough to make it sustainable. There will be advancements in the future..