Wild Wyoming Expedition

Sadly, we had to bail early on Monday. Just after leaving the trailhead I heard a noise. It was not a good noise, though it’s one we’ve heard before.

We went back to the parking area and confirmed there were some loose drive sprocket to sprocket drum bolts. The outer sprocket bolts can be accessed, but the inner sprocket bolts are another story.

If those bolts are loose, you can destroy a sprocket drum. I don’t know what Tucker charges for a new sprocket drum, but last time around I looked for a used one and the only price I got was $550. Ouch!

There really isn’t that much to them, so The Gorilla and I investigated making one. He used his CAD system to create a file to have the outer rings and center mounting plate water jet cut. Once we had those he had to figure out how to roll the drum. Being a crafty bastard (a compliment), he created a fixture. Then once that was done, the pieces needed to be carefully held in alignment while they were welded together.

After getting home and unloading the machine we split the tracks, removed the necessary damper and idler wheels and then the sprocket drums. Fortunately there appears to be no damage! We had been using stainless steel socket head cap screws and Nylok nuts, but if they are getting loose, we must find a better alternative.

Everybody loves pics. Here is the previously trashed sprocket drum. This is the outside.

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This is the inside. You can easily see the elongated bolt holes but note the cracks in the drum.

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A pic of the drum showing cracks. Ugly!

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We have some work to do, but we will be ready for the 2025 Serenade
 
day 2 bought us up to Alpine and the massive trail system, great adventure View attachment 187324View attachment 187325View attachment 187326
Just a heads up if you're going to run a cat down the snowmobile trails in Wyoming. Carry a very large insurance policy. And that might not even be enough. Local gentleman found that out the hard way. Had a snowmobiler run into him. The snowmobiler and his lawyer had a heyday. The snowcat owner proceeded to lose a small business and a very large sum of money. So precedence in Wyoming has been set. Just FYI.
 
Just a heads up if you're going to run a cat down the snowmobile trails in Wyoming. Carry a very large insurance policy. And that might not even be enough. Local gentleman found that out the hard way. Had a snowmobiler run into him. The snowmobiler and his lawyer had a heyday. The snowcat owner proceeded to lose a small business and a very large sum of money. So precedence in Wyoming has been set. Just FYI.
Any chance you have a link to that story or any info on where and who this happened to?
 
Happened to a guy in Cody probably 5ish years ago. He was actually one of my customers. I worked on his snowcat a few times. Actually helped him sell it after the accident. I would guess there's court records. I'm not sure if they would be in Park County or bighorn County. as the accident was not in the county he lived in. The guy that hit him was on vacation from Minnesota. I do remember that.
 
Just a heads up if you're going to run a cat down the snowmobile trails in Wyoming. Carry a very large insurance policy. And that might not even be enough. Local gentleman found that out the hard way. Had a snowmobiler run into him. The snowmobiler and his lawyer had a heyday. The snowcat owner proceeded to lose a small business and a very large sum of money. So precedence in Wyoming has been set. Just FYI


thank you for reminding me about that situation, just reaffirms the need to always check in with the local folks first and make sure all is good to go and listen to their advice,
And I did just that, stopped in at the USFS office spoke to the entire staff, including the USFS law enforcement officer, bought the snow mobile stickers, went over trail maps, made sure all our cats were equipped with all the required safety items, all n all they were pleased I stopped in first and talked with them, and left with a very good understanding of how things work in their district, they were very happy to have us come over and enjoy the great snow and extensive trail system

as for the story you refer to, sad all the way around, I am not sure as to the exact situation and how it happened, couple things I would like to ask about, is there a difference in the groomer cat and our group being on the trail? both have permission to be on the trail,
the other question, is there rule book for all that use the trails in Wyoming, the local USFS never referred to one, thank you mbsieg
 
thank you for reminding me about that situation, just reaffirms the need to always check in with the local folks first and make sure all is good to go and listen to their advice,
And I did just that, stopped in at the USFS office spoke to the entire staff, including the USFS law enforcement officer, bought the snow mobile stickers, went over trail maps, made sure all our cats were equipped with all the required safety items, all n all they were pleased I stopped in first and talked with them, and left with a very good understanding of how things work in their district, they were very happy to have us come over and enjoy the great snow and extensive trail system
Unfortunately if something would have happened, I guarantee everyone you talked to will have a memory lapse that day. Part of the problem is the way everything is ran. You talked to low-level federal employees about utilizing something ran and permitted by the state.
as for the story you refer to, sad all the way around, I am not sure as to the exact situation and how it happened, couple things I would like to ask about, is there a difference in the groomer cat and our group being on the trail?
Yes, a huge difference. Think about a road grader or snow plow doing their job (usually owned by a government entity) versus someone casually driving one down the road.
both have permission to be on the trail,
the other question, is there rule book for all that use the trails in Wyoming, the local USFS never referred to one, thank you mbsieg
Honestly in my opinion it's a mess. Has been forever and I doubt it will get straightened out anytime soon. I know it's been discussed many times on forums. Wyoming's biggest problem is Federal lands and federal law enforcement enforcing state of Wyoming laws. That can also be enforced by sheriff's deputies, game and fish, BLM rangers, ECT. There are not specific laws that prohibit it, but you are also taking a vehicle that is usually twice the size of the vehicle the trails were designed for.

The same problems come about in the summertime, when full size off-road vehicles utilize ATV trails. They have addressed that but there is a lot more people in those instances than there is snow cats.

And on the other side if you have a stickered snow cat and you are running down a forest service road that is ungroomed in my opinion, which doesn't mean much. I can't see how anyone would have a case in that situation.

All I was trying to say by my post was. Please make sure you are able to get a large insurance policy as I saw what can happen when you do not have one. And unfortunately the way our legal system works. all another lawyer needs to do is find that case where someone won a large sum. It just makes it that much easier for the next guy.
 
I am certainly no attorney, and this is (obviously) my opinion only.

I don’t dispute that the trails are intended for snowmobile use in winter, but that the USFS has specifically affirmed it’s perfectly okay for us to use those trails gives us legitimacy. Further, all of us had the proper Wyoming registration stickers making us compliant with Wyoming law. So, we were where we were allowed to be... and operating legally.

I’m not sure if it was Dacx or Jack, or someone else, who said it, but on Monday morning we were reminded to turn on our rotating beacons/roof strobes and to run in single file, and on the right side of the trail.

To briefly summarize, we were operating as legally and responsibly as we could have. BUT, personal injury attorney’s love to broaden the scope of law, whether it’s right or wrong, and to be forewarned is to be forewarned….

Perhaps we should investigate a group policy for our snowcat events?

My impression from a brief conversation with PP is that she more than did her homework (as usual), and the USFS basically welcomed us with open arms. The Star Valley in Wyoming typically gets great snow and is a mecca for snowmobilers due to both the trail network and vast areas of back country terrain accessible.

I’ll also mention I felt very welcome in Afton, and I am hoping the Afton “Cowboy Cat Rendezvous" becomes a yearly event.
 
I'm going to play The devil's advocate here. In no means am I trying to start a fight or trying to be in a hole. Please do not take it that way
I am certainly no attorney, and this is (obviously) my opinion only.

I don’t dispute that the trails are intended for snowmobile use in winter, but that the USFS has specifically affirmed it’s perfectly okay for us to use those trails gives us legitimacy.
Was this written down anywhere? And by whom? The local forest service district ranger? As we have many different forest service districts in a very small area. What's good in one area? Definitely is not in another. A huge part of the problem. As I stated in the past, it's not the forest service that does the trails. It's Wyoming state trails. If you would like some contact info, I have never contacted them to see what their thoughts on snow cats are. Honestly, I'm afraid of what they will say.
Further, all of us had the proper Wyoming registration stickers making us compliant with Wyoming law. So, we were where we were allowed to be... and operating legally.
The problem being what is the legal definition of a snowmobile? Depending on whose definition you look at, there are different definitions. The state has one definition, the feds another. So I can slap a snowmobile sticker on a d9 caterpillar and run down the trails? And not face any repercussions?
I’m not sure if it was Dacx or Jack, or someone else, who said it, but on Monday morning we were reminded to turn on our rotating beacons/roof strobes and to run in single file, and on the right side of the trail.
You guys had far better etiquette than most. Snowmobilers that is for sure.
To briefly summarize, we were operating as legally and responsibly as we could have. BUT, personal injury attorney’s love to broaden the scope of law, whether it’s right or wrong, and to be forewarned is to be forewarned….
Exactly the point I was trying to make. I know that case definitely caused a lot of cabin Snow cat owners to look at the way they operate and what paths they take.
Perhaps we should investigate a group policy for our snowcat events?

My impression from a brief conversation with PP is that she more than did her homework (as usual), and the USFS basically welcomed us with open arms. The Star Valley in Wyoming typically gets great snow and is a mecca for snowmobilers due to both the trail network and vast areas of back country terrain accessible.

I’ll also mention I felt very welcome in Afton, and I am hoping the Afton “Cowboy Cat Rendezvous" becomes a yearly event.
Definitely! It's great to see large groups of cats get together. I would love to join someday. In fact, I would love to welcome you guys into my state in a lot better way than this. But facts are facts. I would hate to see one of you guys leave staring down the barrel of a multi-million dollar lawsuit.
 
I'm going to play The devil's advocate here. In no means am I trying to start a fight or trying to be in a hole. Please do not take it that way

Was this written down anywhere? And by whom? The local forest service district ranger? As we have many different forest service districts in a very small area. What's good in one area? Definitely is not in another. A huge part of the problem. As I stated in the past, it's not the forest service that does the trails. It's Wyoming state trails. If you would like some contact info, I have never contacted them to see what their thoughts on snow cats are. Honestly, I'm afraid of what they will say.

The problem being what is the legal definition of a snowmobile? Depending on whose definition you look at, there are different definitions. The state has one definition, the feds another. So I can slap a snowmobile sticker on a d9 caterpillar and run down the trails? And not face any repercussions?

You guys had far better etiquette than most. Snowmobilers that is for sure.

Exactly the point I was trying to make. I know that case definitely caused a lot of cabin Snow cat owners to look at the way they operate and what paths they take.

Definitely! It's great to see large groups of cats get together. I would love to join someday. In fact, I would love to welcome you guys into my state in a lot better way than this. But facts are facts. I would hate to see one of you guys leave staring down the barrel of a multi-million dollar lawsuit.
mbseig,

I didn't take anything you said as anything other than making us aware of a potentially bad situation. You were/are trying to help, and I appreciate that. I'm sure others do as well.

Thank You!!!
 
mbseig,

I didn't take anything you said as anything other than making us aware of a potentially bad situation. You were/are trying to help, and I appreciate that. I'm sure others do as well.

Thank You!!!
If there's anything I can do to help I will gladly.
After thinking about it, I did make the phone call to Wyoming state trails. Friday afternoon. Obviously nobody was working. 🙂 They are going to give me a call back on Monday.
 
In my part of the world a slow-moving vehicle sign like we use on Ag equipment makes us a farm tractor in a sense.

From those that I have talked to who wear a uniform this seems to be universal with them.

I put one on my Cat on day one.

Just trying to be proactive, along with the D.O.T. reflective tape from semi-trailers applied to all sides of my machine make it quite visible.

So far so good with regards to the above.
 
In my part of the world a slow-moving vehicle sign like we use on Ag equipment makes us a farm tractor in a sense.

From those that I have talked to who wear a uniform this seems to be universal with them.

I put one on my Cat on day one.

Just trying to be proactive, along with the D.O.T. reflective tape from semi-trailers applied to all sides of my machine make it quite visible.

So far so good with regards to the above.
I would be really curious as you are very aware farm equipment is very large. When a piece of equipment is taking up 3/4 of the road and vehicle hits that equipment, who is at fault? It definitely does happen. Years ago when I lived in Minnesota and was doing farm work, I remember being told by numerous people to not straddle the white line because basically I was giving up my right to that lane and I've heard that a few times since. I was always taught if I went over the center line I needed to yield to oncoming traffic. What are your thoughts Kirk?
 
In Iowa you hit a SMV signed vehicle/implement from behind it is the fault of the driver of the person who hit it.
I believe in Iowa a snow cat is a "unit of animal husbandry" and is exempt from most DOT rules if clearly marked.
Since a snow cat is a qualifying method of tending livestock in winter weather it can qualify as such. It can even be
paid for as a pretax business expense if you have livestock.
If you don't have livestock, I am sure the SMV sign still applies as the definition of that unit of animal husbandry is quite
wide and encompassing. But in Iowa we are in the middle of one of the largest corn and bean fields in the nation.
Laws in states do vary a lot.
 
In Iowa you hit a SMV signed vehicle/implement from behind it is the fault of the driver of the person who hit it.
100%. I'm not talking about from behind though. Lol I think most everybody that has ran a snow cat has ridden down snowmobile trails on snowmobiles. It's a crap shoot riding a 4-ft wide snowmobile in twisty trails where everybody seems to think they own it. There's a reason the inside of the corner never has snow on it or in it. 🙂
I believe in Iowa a snow cat is a "unit of animal husbandry" and is exempt from most DOT rules if clearly marked.
Since a snow cat is a qualifying method of tending livestock in winter weather it can qualify as such. It can even be
paid for as a pretax business expense if you have livestock.
If you don't have livestock, I am sure the SMV sign still applies as the definition of that unit of animal husbandry is quite

wide and encompassing. But in Iowa we are in the middle of one of the largest corn and bean fields in the nation.
Laws in states do vary a lot.
Yep, I agree. I'll leave it alone from here on. I don't want to take princesses thread so far off track.
 
Been there and done that, good thing you caught it before leaving parts on the trail. My new sprockets from Tucker had 14 mounting holes and suspect this was the fix for the tear out, the drums were no longer available. I was running with BHCS with stover lock nuts. I think going from 7-5/16” bolts to 14-3/8” will give more clamping force and help prevent loosening and the tear out. I switched to nylock nuts and think I may have put a little red juice on them as well.

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Stock configuration

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New heavy duty configuration

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Rob,

I remember you had made new drums, and you did a really beautiful job of it!

I didn't realize they were no longer available from Tucker. When I was quoted $550 for a used one, I just assumed Tucker was even more expensive!

The Gorilla and I talked about going to 14 bolts (they were already 3/8-24). But Tucker welds the outer ring to the cylindrical drum continuously along the outside, and on the inside of the ring they skip weld it. The extra seven bolt holes would be through those skip welds. Certainly possible, but we thought we'd evaluate the changes we made before going that route.

We had used 3/8-24 x 1 1/4" stainless steel socket head cap screws, and stainless steel Nylok nuts. All of those will be replaced with plated Grade 8 socket head cap screws of the same size, and plated Grade C locknuts (aka: Stover nuts). My understanding is standard stainless steel fasteners are roughly equivalent to Grade 5, so the new Grade 8 fasteners are stronger and allow one to torque the bolts to a higher number of foot pounds. Scott had watched a YouTube video of Stover vs Nylok, and he said the Stover nuts have a greater resistance to loosening.

We will also change the fastener orientation from the bolt head on the outside, to the bolt head on the inside (with the nut on the outside). This was done for two reasons.

- Using 3/8" nuts, the wrench or socket size is 9/16", and on two of the factory drums there wasn't sufficient room for a socket to grab the nut, and the wrench engagement of the nut was lousy. But with the socket head on the inside, one uses a 5/16" Allen wrench and there is no socket-to-drum interference.

- When removing the stainless fasteners we could see that the grouser wheel guides had contacted (and worn) the ends of the bolts, which protruded a bit less than 1/4" past the end of the Nylok nuts. We think this may have caused, or contributed to, the loosening issue.

Scott suggested a further modification which we'll do. The sprocket drums are essentially like automotive wheels in that they attach to the axle's hub via studs. Automotive wheels are either "hub-centric" or "lug centric". A hub-centric wheel fits somewhat tightly to the hub, and is thus centered by it. Hub-centric wheels use flat lug nuts. Conversely, lug-centric wheels have a conical shape where the lug nut end also has a conical shape that mates with the wheel. this centers the wheel on the studs. (The Tucker sprocket drums are neither.)

The conical angle is 60º and we will chamfer the sprocket drums with a 60º chamfer angle and use conically shaped lug nuts. Is this modification worth it? I don't know, but The Gorilla is a smart cookie and I have found following his suggestions is generally prudent.

(On the infrequent situations when he says "You were right", I usually feign an inability to hear... and ask him to repeat himself. This annoys him, which isn't a good thing... it's a GREAT thing!)

Hope to see you at Hood River!!!!
 
You can see that my original drum had 14 holes but a previous owner drilled the 2nd set after having similar issues with loose fasteners. I also found that the drilled hole patterns were slightly out of time side to side which put more pressure on the leading sprocket. If I needed to make another I would probably make the diameter of the drum slightly smaller and then increase the height of the flanges to give it more clearance for the bolt heads and a little more material around the holes.

I did actually assemble them with bolts on the inside which worked great because they were a slight interference fit with one flat and didn’t need a wrench to hold them. I instead opted for looks over function with the low profile SHCS from the outside. I think I went to the other 3 corners and put a few small insurance tack welds to reduce the chances of the same thing happening on the others.

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You can see that my original drum had 14 holes but a previous owner drilled the 2nd set after having similar issues with loose fasteners. I also found that the drilled hole patterns were slightly out of time side to side which put more pressure on the leading sprocket. If I needed to make another I would probably make the diameter of the drum slightly smaller and then increase the height of the flanges to give it more clearance for the bolt heads and a little more material around the holes.

I did actually assemble them with bolts on the inside which worked great because they were a slight interference fit with one flat and didn’t need a wrench to hold them. I instead opted for looks over function with the low profile SHCS from the outside. I think I went to the other 3 corners and put a few small insurance tack welds to reduce the chances of the same thing happening on the others.

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Rob,

Have you had any issues with bolts loosening since installing your highly upgraded design?
 
Don’t know if it applies, but Montana allowed me to “title” both of my snowcats as snowmobiles, which I was then able to (due to their age) get permanent registrations for plus snowmobile stickers for. State Farm Insurance provides me liability coverage. I basically just operate on a county road that is closed to wheeled vehicles in the winter. The county road is used by snowmobiles and tracked UTVs. A portion of it is only occasionally groomed!
 
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