What have Palestinians done?!

[Dargo]

If I'm not mistaken, our government has poured hundreds of millions of dollars into Palestine to support their impoverished people. Now they have voted in a radical terrorist government. Do they not realize that we will not keep pouring money into them?! Are they that stupid? I have to think that there is a severe communication issue with the Palestinian people not being able to know the world situation and they do not realize what losing support from any government that does not support terrorism will do to them.

I can see the the pleas now. We will see starving people and starving kids in the street and they will make it out to be our fault because we stopped supporting them because they voted in a terrorist government. The more liberal groups will protest and insist on the U.S. giving them aid and support anyway; as a humanitarian gesture. That gesture will be in truth supporting and raising people who are only out to kill us. If we stop supporting them, we are cruel. If we continue to support them, we are stupid.

 

[Av8r3400]

What have they done?


They have rung their death nell.

 

[XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq]

What have they done?


They have rung their death nell.

They get what they deserve - nothing. I hope Israel is able to deal with their anarchist neighbor. Israel has my support as long as they don't give anything up and stand up to these kooks.

PB

 

[Melensdad]

I hope that there is some level of pragmatic logic that comes into play by the new coalition government.

From what I see, the election results are close to being done, but Hamas will have roughly 57% of the seats, 10% will be split among small parties, the remainder goes to a very corrupt Fatah party that has held power and accomplished nothing for years.

Western nations poured BILLIONS of dollars into the Fatah money pit and gotten nothing from it, and to be honest I think most of the money was stolen or squandered or wasted but certainly didn't go to the people, infrastructure, etc.

Honestly, there is a ray of hope in my mind. I think there is a marginal chance that Hamas may end up renouncing violence. Perhaps not initially. But perhaps after they wake up from their drunken celebrations?

 

[OkeeDon]

According to what I've heard, Hamas has built up an enviable record of domestic activities and support. Yes, they have supported terrorism. Yes, they have had an armed wing of their party. But then, according to that definition, the Continental Congress and their Continental Army were a radical terrorist government, also, at least in the eyes of the British.

The former Palestinian government was corrupt and ineffectual. The people chose the Hamas representatives in a democratic election. Some time in the recent past, President Bush stated that democractic elections were what was important, and sometimes the results are not what we would like.

Several observers have stated that Hamas will, like almost all other revolutionary governments, do away with their armed wing and their radical activities now that they have achieved leadership. If we are serious about promoting peace in the Middle East, I suggest it would be wise to give them the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise.

{Edit} Once again, Bob and I were typing at the same time. And, once again, we're closer together than we are split apart. Interesting.

Don

 

[Melensdad]

Israel just announced that they will not deal with a government that is controlled by Hamas.

For those who do not know, one bad thing is that Iran is reported to be the major source of funding for Hamas. Now for the good news, Hamas has abided by a cease fire with Israel for quite a while (relatively speaking).

This will be very interesting to watch the dynamics. Hamas, in its core beliefs, states that it is committed to the destruction of Israel. Israel, has now stated that it will not deal with the new Palestinian government. It may be that the nation of Israel will move much farther toward a defensive mode and much farther away from a cooperative mode because of this election. Hamas, if it is to work for peace, will now have to renounce its core belief. Or, if it stays true to its word, is now in a position to wage war. Hmmmm.

 

[JimR]

Time will tell for sure. Personally I think we should stop all foreign aid and start looking at saving America before it is too late.

 

[Dargo]

I just had an interesting conversation with a long time customer, and friend, of mine who fled Palestine about 20 years ago. He fled then to America so he could raise his family without fear and without his children being taught to hate people and to have a better life. He said that the children in Palestine are taught openly in school to hate all Jews and all infidels. He was taught in school when he was a child that all Jews and all those who do not follow the teachings of Muhammad should be killed. It was his choice to flee to the U.S. to escape that atmosphere and to have his children brought up without that tradition of hate.

He also told me that it has nearly been a generation now that the Palestinians have been brainwashed into believing that they can militarily destroy Israel. He called his brother there today to try to get him out of Palestine. His brother told him "no way" because Palestine was finally going to destroy Israel and all infidels. He tried to explain to his brother that Israel can easily wipe Palestine off of the map but his brother laughed at him.

This tells me that the average Palestine person has no idea what fate will befall them should they openly attack Israel. Personally, I think that Israel has shown pretty good restraint, but I don't know how long they will do so if openly attacked. I think it would be a very short war.

 

[Av8r3400]

...He said that the children in Palestine are taught openly in school to hate all Jews and all infidels. He was taught in school when he was a child that all Jews and all those who do not follow the teachings of Muhammad should be killed...

This is not unique to Palistine. It is common to all (yes, I said all) of Islam.

The Koran is believed (by Muslims) to be the words of God (allah). Not the teachings of God through profits or the interpretations of profits (as Christians believe the Bible is), but the actual words dictated to Muhamid from allah. This belief, therefore, is not open to interpretation or a "reformation" like Christianaity went through. This means that as long as Islam exists, this type of 3rd century barbarianism will exist because that is how the koran tells Muslims to act.

The notion that Islam can be, or is a religion of peace is a falicy. By definition it can not happen. Welcome to the continuation of the crusades, only with with neuclear weapons.

 

[OkeeDon]

This is not unique to Palistine. It is common to all (yes, I said all) of Islam.

The Koran is believed (by Muslims) to be the words of God (allah). Not the teachings of God through profits or the interpretations of profits (as Christians believe the Bible is), but the actual words dictated to Muhamid from allah. This belief, therefore, is not open to interpretation or a "reformation" like Christianaity went through.

Man, you sure haven't bumped into many Southern Baptists, have you. Try telling them that the Bible is not the literal Word of God. The various fundamentalist sects, often with a TV evangelist at the head, are even more conservative.

 

[Av8r3400]

Do they believe that anyone who doesn't believe the same as they do, either need to convert or be killed? They (fundamentalist Christians) may be fanatical, but not to the point of "convert or die."

 

[Dargo]

Do they believe that anyone who doesn't believe the same as they do, either need to convert or be killed? They (fundamentalist Christians) may be fanatical, but not to the point of "convert or die."

I actually have a church on either side of my property. One is a Pentecostal and the other is a Baptist. The Pentecostal people get a bit rowdy at times, but they have never come out of the church shootin' yet. The Baptist folks are pretty quiet and don't get to hootin' and hollerin' nearly as much. Heck, I even get the Mormon folks wonderin' back my lane a few times a year. They all ought to be salespeople. They will not take "no" for an answer. I'm wanting to turn the dogs loose on 'em next time, but the wife won't let me. Each church seems determined to save folks from the other, but nobody does any shootin'.

Now that I think about it, a Catholic church owns the property behind me. I guess that makes me perty well surrounded by churches. Still, I'm about the only one around here that does much shootin'. I guess in the summer time when I am out working in my barn with the doors open I ought to watch what I shout when I'm pissed off. I s'pose I've burned all their ears at one time or another over the years. The closest is a few hundred yards away, but I bet they prolly have heard me at one time or another.

 

[XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq]

Heck, I even get the Mormon folks wonderin' back my lane a few times a year. They all ought to be salespeople. They will not take "no" for an answer. I'm wanting to turn the dogs loose on 'em next time, but the wife won't let me.

Dargo, just answer the door totally nude and act as if nothing is different. I've uhhh "heard" its a very successful method of getting rid of unwanted solicitors.

 

[OkeeDon]

Do they believe that anyone who doesn't believe the same as they do, either need to convert or be killed? They (fundamentalist Christians) may be fanatical, but not to the point of "convert or die."

Depends. I wouldn't want to be an abortion doctor around some of them, for example. Very few Muslims, only the deepest fundamentalists and any pre-teens they can brainwash, believe the same. Most Muslims are as harmless as Dargo's Mormons. My son is dating a Muslim, by the way; her Father is Egyptian and her Mother is Thai.

 

[bczoom]

Do they believe that anyone who doesn't believe the same as they do, either need to convert or be killed? They (fundamentalist Christians) may be fanatical, but not to the point of "convert or die."

Isn't that in part what the Crusades were about?

 

[OkeeDon]

Isn't that in part what the Crusades were about?

Don't confuse them with facts...

 

[Melensdad]

bczoom . . . that is exactly what the Crusades were all about. And it went well beyond the Crusades. King Olaf of Norway was a convert to Christianity became the Patron Saint of Norway. He converted while on one of his raiding & pilaging journeys and upon returning to Norway he converted Norway from a nation of Viking raiders to a nation of Christians. And those who did not want to convert were given no choice in the matter if they wanted to remain alive.

However, while there are many stories of forced Christian conversion, those basically date back to 1000 years ago. I think the Christian world has changed pretty dramatically since the spread and the reign of the Knights Templar. Don pointed out that some of the Southern Baptists are very vocal, but while vocal, they are evangelical in a non-violent way. Mormons believe in spending about a year of their lives doing evangelical work to convert people to their religion, but again they do it in a non-violent manner that involves discussion, prayer, and preaching.

It does seem evident, however, that at least some very large factions of the Islamic world still believe in the docterine of conversion or death. There are certainly many non-violent followers of Islam.

 

[OkeeDon]

If you go back only abut 400 - 500 years, you have the Spanish conquistadores killing off entire civilizations unless they converted to Christianity.

Today, we are responsible for the deaths of over 30,000 Iraqis killed as a result of our invasion of Iraq, while Franklin Graham, the son of Billy Graham, visits the White House to encourage them and plots to send Christian missionaries to Iraq. Bush has invoked the name of God and thanked God for his blessings on the success of our intial invasion, as if God approves of our killing.

 

[bczoom]

Isn't that in part what the Crusades were about?

bczoom . . . that is exactly what the Crusades were all about.

Bob,

I'm going to stick with "in part".

As I understand it, the primary reasons for the crusades were:
1. To reclaim land taken by the Turks/Muslims
2. Save those being persecuted by the Turks in the lands they have taken.

One of the last (and most grey) reasons was the interpretation that Christ commanded it. Although never dictated by a pope (as the aforementioned reasons were), some in the crusades misinterpreted parables in the Bible as to mean that non-Christans are to be converted or killed.

 

[Melensdad]

Today, we are responsible for the deaths of over 30,000 Iraqis killed as a result of our invasion of Iraq

Don, there is plenty of debate over why we invaded Iraq, but it certainly was NOT a religious invasion. It is simply wrong to even suggest it.


While there are evangelicals who want to send missionaries into Iraq, I think it is fair to say they also want to send missionaries into every other non-Christian dominated area. I also think it is fair to say that the US policy is not one that is pushing this, but I also doubt there is any condemnation of it. I would also suggest that Muslim nations are also sending their evangelicals out to Christian nations, and in that case, those are actually sponsored by those nations, which is dramatically different.

 

[OkeeDon]

Don, there is plenty of debate over why we invaded Iraq, but it certainly was NOT a religious invasion. It is simply wrong to even suggest it.

That's what they say. You know I don't believe a word they say.

 

[Melensdad]

That's what they say. You know I don't believe a word they say.

So you are willing to take their words and simply insert a totally unsupported and unsupportable position into its place, defend it as the truth, and suggest that everything the coalition forces did was in the name of religion?

That is pretty unbelievable.

Interesting too because some of the coalition nations have large Islamic populations.

 

[Av8r3400]

"... If you go back only abut 400 - 500 years, you have the Spanish conquistadores killing off entire civilizations unless they converted to Christianity... "

I did mention the judeo-christian reformation, didn't I?

That is when the idea of convert to Chrisitanity or die went away. Islam is not capable of this because of their core beliefs. (Not just the fundamentalists, either. If your son's friend is religions at all, she can quote the passage in the Koran that say this.)

 

[Cityboy]

According to what I've heard, Hamas has built up an enviable record of domestic activities and support. Yes, they have supported terrorism. Yes, they have had an armed wing of their party. But then, according to that definition, the Continental Congress and their Continental Army were a radical terrorist government, also, at least in the eyes of the British.

You have got to be kidding! The Continental Army was a terrorist group? Brilliant leftist reasoning, Don. That you would utter the name of Hamas in the same sentence with our Founding Fathers is beyond all logic and sense. I don’t recall any similarity between Hamas leaders and George Washington or Samuel Adams. I do not recall anyone of our Founding Fathers calling for the annihilation of all British Citizens as Hamas is calling for the annihilation of all Jews.

. If we are serious about promoting peace in the

Middle East, I suggest it would be wise to give them the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise.
Don

This is one of the major problems I have with the political Left in America. They are terrorist apologists. This is unbelievable and unforgivable. Give them the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise???? What have they proven up until now? You hate Bush, our own president but you are willing to give a known and proven terrorist organization the benefit of the doubt”? Typical Modern Liberal logic these days, I suppose. I should not be surprised, but it is still shocking to hear this type of rhetoric from a "fellow" American.

 

[beds]

What option do they have but to give them the benefit of the doubt - to some extent? Should you go in and take them out before they commit any aggresion? Oh yeah, I guess you would.

 

[XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq]

What option do they have but to give them the benefit of the doubt - to some extent? Should you go in and take them out before they commit any aggresion? Oh yeah, I guess you would.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

 

[Dargo]

Nobody noticed that I changed my avatar just for this particular discussion?

 

[rico304]

You have got to be kidding! The Continental Army was a terrorist group? Brilliant leftist reasoning, Don. That you would utter the name of Hamas in the same sentence with our Founding Fathers is beyond all logic and sense. I don’t recall any similarity between Hamas leaders and George Washington or Samuel Adams. I do not recall anyone of our Founding Fathers calling for the annihilation of all British Citizens as Hamas is calling for the annihilation of all Jews.

This is one of the major problems I have with the political Left in America. They are terrorist apologists. This is unbelievable and unforgivable. Give them the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise???? What have they proven up until now? You hate Bush, our own president but you are willing to give a known and proven terrorist organization the benefit of the doubt”? Typical Modern Liberal logic these days, I suppose. I should not be surprised, but it is still shocking to hear this type of rhetoric from a "fellow" American.

 

[kensfarm]

I was raised Southern Baptists.. I just have to say that some of the comments here show the lack of knowledge of the "true" Southern Baptists faith.. and some are just plain offensive.

 

[Cityboy]

What option do they have but to give them the benefit of the doubt - to some extent? Should you go in and take them out before they commit any aggresion? Oh yeah, I guess you would.

BEFORE the commit any agression? Since I can remember they have been killing Jews. Surely you have not recently arrived on this planet. These are the folks who call for the death of all Jews and infidels, including YOU, beds, and teach their children to do exactly that. Benefit of the doubt? Yeah, OK.