-
Please be sure to read the rules and adhere to them. Some banned members have complained that they are not spammers. But they spammed us. Some even tried to redirect our members to other forums. Duh. Be smart. Read the rules and adhere to them and we will all get along just fine. Cheers. :beer: Link to the rules: https://www.forumsforums.com/threads/forum-rules-info.2974/
What do you think?
- Thread starter mbsieg
- Start date
California
Charter Member
It's real.
Gore's presentation probably has some minor flaws but the conclusions he presents are real and represent the consensus of all real scientists, minus a few crackpots and 'specialists' funded by the energy industry. There is plenty of room to debate the speed of change, and potential consequences, but the direction of change is undisputed.
My daughter graduated in biology and is a field scientist studying this. She's twice as discouraged as Gore, every time we see her she rattles off a list of species being pushed toward extinction. Her undergraduate research focused on the frogs in high altitude lakes that are dying due to the thinning of the upper atmosphere. Her field observations (above the tree line near Yosemite) observe the same pattern that other observers are reporting worldwide - Chile, Alps, Tibet.
Gore's presentation probably has some minor flaws but the conclusions he presents are real and represent the consensus of all real scientists, minus a few crackpots and 'specialists' funded by the energy industry. There is plenty of room to debate the speed of change, and potential consequences, but the direction of change is undisputed.
My daughter graduated in biology and is a field scientist studying this. She's twice as discouraged as Gore, every time we see her she rattles off a list of species being pushed toward extinction. Her undergraduate research focused on the frogs in high altitude lakes that are dying due to the thinning of the upper atmosphere. Her field observations (above the tree line near Yosemite) observe the same pattern that other observers are reporting worldwide - Chile, Alps, Tibet.
I just watched it today.
I think many of the facts he presents are real. However I am not sure that many of the REASONS given for the CAUSES are able to be proven and I am skeptical. Further there were issues like the Kioto (sp?) Treaty where he criticized the US and Australia for not signing onto the treaty but didn't bother to provide some legitimate facts about the treaty that really make it hard for the US and Australia to support.
Still, when it comes to the earth, it seems logical to error on the side of caution. I honestly don't know if the cause of global warming is man, cow farts, sun spots or some natural cycles. Given that nobody can actually prove the cause, it seems logical that we should strive to pollute less, save energy where possible, find alternative sources, etc.
So I will agree with California and say "It's real." But I won't go so far as to say his conclusions or causes are accurate. Then again I won't say they are not accurate. Science doesn't seem to support him in too many ways, yet the warming itself cannot be denied.
I think many of the facts he presents are real. However I am not sure that many of the REASONS given for the CAUSES are able to be proven and I am skeptical. Further there were issues like the Kioto (sp?) Treaty where he criticized the US and Australia for not signing onto the treaty but didn't bother to provide some legitimate facts about the treaty that really make it hard for the US and Australia to support.
Still, when it comes to the earth, it seems logical to error on the side of caution. I honestly don't know if the cause of global warming is man, cow farts, sun spots or some natural cycles. Given that nobody can actually prove the cause, it seems logical that we should strive to pollute less, save energy where possible, find alternative sources, etc.
So I will agree with California and say "It's real." But I won't go so far as to say his conclusions or causes are accurate. Then again I won't say they are not accurate. Science doesn't seem to support him in too many ways, yet the warming itself cannot be denied.
Cityboy
Banned
The Earth is a moving, constantly changing planet. As far back as scientists have been able to determine, the Earth's climate has been in a slow, yet constant state of change. The whole issue comes down to whether or not human activity has anything to do with it. Maybe, maybe not, but if so, I do not think it is to the extent that we can do much about it. The political left has seized upon the theory of global warming, as has the United Nations. And what is their solution? More taxation, of course. When these two bedfellows are in agreement, you cannot help but be skeptical about the whole issue.
Things change. Ocean currents change and cause changes in the weather. Volcanos erupt and cause ecological changes. Plates shift and fall into the ocean and cause tsunami's. The jet stream shifts north and causes droughts in the southeastern U.S. Do these natural occurrences have any correlation to vehicle emissions or refrigerant venting? These things were happening long before the first automobile or air conditioner appeared on the planet. What makes you think human activity is suddenly causing these changes to occur?
I think we should control pollution for the simple fact that it is not good for us to inject toxins into the air and water that we must breath and drink. As to this whole global warming theory and the political manuvering related to it? Well, I'm not buying Al Gore's story because I believe he has an ulterior political motive.
Things change. Ocean currents change and cause changes in the weather. Volcanos erupt and cause ecological changes. Plates shift and fall into the ocean and cause tsunami's. The jet stream shifts north and causes droughts in the southeastern U.S. Do these natural occurrences have any correlation to vehicle emissions or refrigerant venting? These things were happening long before the first automobile or air conditioner appeared on the planet. What makes you think human activity is suddenly causing these changes to occur?
I think we should control pollution for the simple fact that it is not good for us to inject toxins into the air and water that we must breath and drink. As to this whole global warming theory and the political manuvering related to it? Well, I'm not buying Al Gore's story because I believe he has an ulterior political motive.
The earth is warming. So is Mars and Venus. Correlative? What's the source of the heat for all three?
Th earth has been warming for at least 15,000 years - Ohio was covered in ice 15,000 years ago. Wasn't to much non-natural carbon emmisions back then.
And how many other ice ages has the earth cooled down into and warmed up out of?
Don't tell me it's man made warming.
Oh, ya, and some of the data is false - recently admitted and changed by NASA. The hottest year was 1934. How many more errors, either way are there?
Oh, and I just read how terrible it is that estimated CO2 emmisions are at the highest level ever. So, that begs the question, how much has the concentration of atmosphereic gases changed in the earth's atmosphere in the last 100 years? How much N2? How Much O2? How much everything else?
Th earth has been warming for at least 15,000 years - Ohio was covered in ice 15,000 years ago. Wasn't to much non-natural carbon emmisions back then.
And how many other ice ages has the earth cooled down into and warmed up out of?
Don't tell me it's man made warming.
Oh, ya, and some of the data is false - recently admitted and changed by NASA. The hottest year was 1934. How many more errors, either way are there?
Oh, and I just read how terrible it is that estimated CO2 emmisions are at the highest level ever. So, that begs the question, how much has the concentration of atmosphereic gases changed in the earth's atmosphere in the last 100 years? How much N2? How Much O2? How much everything else?
Some how I think Al Gore would have won the Nobel Peace Prize for dressing up like a girl guide and selling cookies.
The whole thing is so manufactured. I'm still waiting for the ice age that I was promised when I was a kid.
The whole thing is so manufactured. I'm still waiting for the ice age that I was promised when I was a kid.
Gatorboy
Active member
There is nothing to fix, and there is no problem. This is the normal cycle of this planet, and who is to say at what climate level is the most optimum? Regardless, we (humans) don't have any control over such climate changes.
Bob, not picking on you but it's a pet peeve of mine. "Save the Earth" or "Save the Planet" cries really aren't true. Earth has been here for 5 billion years and will most likely be here for another 5 billion. What everyone is really saying is "Save my ass". Humans are worried primarily about our own survival and secondarily all the cute things on the planet. The planet itself could care less if anything was on it...
Hey CA, ask your daughter about extinction over let's say, the past billion years. I don't have the statistics but somewhere in the vicinity of 99.8% of all living things that ever existed are now extinct. Well, it happens... Humans do have some but not all control over whether something becomes extinct. Simply, a species that is unable to survive or reproduce in its environment, and unable to move to a new environment where it can do so, dies out.
California
Charter Member
It's not so much an issue of losing a species, but rather concern that whole ecosystems can crash. Out here it doesn't rain all summer so we run on stored water half the year. Every stream is dammed. Now the tiniest fish are dying off and everything larger that depends on big fish eating little fish, is in decline. I kinda liked salmon, the native ones, now Alaska farm-raised is all we see.
It's that larger picture that causes concern, the individual species disappearing are just indicators of the present overall pattern. At some point if all the species we eat go down, we go down too. I don't think we've turned the corner yet to halt this decline.
It's that larger picture that causes concern, the individual species disappearing are just indicators of the present overall pattern. At some point if all the species we eat go down, we go down too. I don't think we've turned the corner yet to halt this decline.
Well, I read that several times. Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like those are in many facets, man-made ecosystems. Prior to the dams, wasn't the area void of these fish? If there were fish, were they as plentiful and of the variety after the dam construction or were many stocked?
What cracks me up is that it isn't "global warming" that is causing the problems its over population. We are selling our soles to the immigration and over-population devil and allowing too many people to inhabit the the land.
To be truly good stewards of the land we need to stop importing so many people into the land that is under our control.
It appears to me that a lot of the people that are up in arms over global warming are pro immigration and making it easier for immigrants to come to the country.
Yes, I'm an immigrant - a legal immigrant and it wasn't easy to get in. That's the way it should be.
To be truly good stewards of the land we need to stop importing so many people into the land that is under our control.
It appears to me that a lot of the people that are up in arms over global warming are pro immigration and making it easier for immigrants to come to the country.
Yes, I'm an immigrant - a legal immigrant and it wasn't easy to get in. That's the way it should be.
I'd add it's not just this country but the population in general.
Here's some population stats I just grabbed.
1 billion in 1820
2 billion in 1930
3 billion in 1960
4 billion in 1974
5 billion in 1988
6 billion in 2000
We're at 6.6 billion now.
At the current rate of population growth, there will be another billion people every 10 years or so.
Heck, with that much body heat alone, I'm surprised the world temperature isn't 98.6 (or even warmer during flu season
)
Snowcat Operations
Active member
HHMMmmm Man I must say US humans are SO POWERFUL. If you go by what Gore is Spewing out, we humans are the cause of Global Warming. Funny thing is Every other planet in the Solar System is also experiencing "Global Warming". Global Warming is a natural process that this and every planet in our System goes through! Same thing happens when we have Ice Ages. And yet Al; Gore flys to all his appereances in a GULF Stream Private Jet which spews more Carbon signature than a 737 carry 50 times the people. To and from the airport he rides in a motorcade of SUVs and lives in a 20,000 Square foot mansion with heated pools ect ect. AND thats just one of many. Yah I'm gonna listen to this guy. BUT HEY you can always buy Carbon credits right? Who the hell do you think owns these Carbon Credit Companies? NO, it couldnt be the Nobel Peace Price winner could it? YUP!
Snowcat Operations
Active member
Now Alaska Farm raised is all we see. PLEASE! There is no diffrence in site or taste. They are raised for humnas to eat. Leave the poor natural ones alone. Man shouldnt touch the natural ones. They would be killed and then we would have no more. OH MY GOD!
California
Charter Member
SO, you are missing my point. The native salmon were near the top of the food chain. The plumbing of California's rivers into water delivery systems to support subsidized cotton (Kern County) and population growth in the desert (Los Angeles) is impacting species all up and down the food chain as the climate changes and excess water disappears. I just used salmon as a visible example of that chain, not a single issue. If we lose the whole food chain top to bottom then the people will have to abandon the area too. That would be an extreme and unlikely outcome but I'm trying to illustrate examples of the direction a trend is moving. (And there *is* a difference in taste, farm vs native!)
Zoom - every second, somewhere some woman is giving birth. STOP THAT WOMAN!
re prior to the dams ... The salmon live in the ocean but breed upstream on shallow sandbars. Each salmon does this in I think their fourth year. (they die after breeding, rather than returning to the ocean). Now with several dams along their path they can't get 'home' to make the next generation and they have nearly all disappeared. (One interesting aspect is that those who make it home seem to sense their birth stream waters and choose the right tributary, even after passing through the huge reservoirs where you would expect that blending would mask this).
I'm consider salmon and other local fish in this context as a significant grocery staple supporting humans, not a gamefish.
There's no restocking for most of the species. F&G fees fees pay for stocking gamefish including a small number of native trout but not to an extent that affects the human food supply.
Zoom - every second, somewhere some woman is giving birth. STOP THAT WOMAN!
re prior to the dams ... The salmon live in the ocean but breed upstream on shallow sandbars. Each salmon does this in I think their fourth year. (they die after breeding, rather than returning to the ocean). Now with several dams along their path they can't get 'home' to make the next generation and they have nearly all disappeared. (One interesting aspect is that those who make it home seem to sense their birth stream waters and choose the right tributary, even after passing through the huge reservoirs where you would expect that blending would mask this).
I'm consider salmon and other local fish in this context as a significant grocery staple supporting humans, not a gamefish.
There's no restocking for most of the species. F&G fees fees pay for stocking gamefish including a small number of native trout but not to an extent that affects the human food supply.
Deadly Sushi
The One, The Only, Sushi
I personally dont care. I cant change anything. Im along for the ride. People have jobs to figure this shit out. I sell computers. All I know is I go to work.... sell things..... go back to my apt. wax the dolphin and go to sleep.
My point is Im not going to worry about something I cant change. These assholes arent even sure whats causing the warming OR how to cool the marble down. So when these snapper-heads get their crap together I'll be listening.
My point is Im not going to worry about something I cant change. These assholes arent even sure whats causing the warming OR how to cool the marble down. So when these snapper-heads get their crap together I'll be listening.
mak2
Active member
You know, I just dont know. Al Gore does not know either. He should have settled for discovering the internet. Didnt he also cause Three Mile Island or something. 
Seriously, I clearly remember Mr Georges, my seventh grade Latin american studies teacher (who was later murdered along with his wife, by a male dancer from one of the gay bars in the big city) telling the class the amazon rain forest will be gone in 20 years. I do think it was global cooling back then. 13 years old and we would probably have an ice age by my retirement. I really think we should stick with the existing science as we see it. Of course it is better to be good stewards of the environemnt. But alboreing is nutz.
Seriously, I clearly remember Mr Georges, my seventh grade Latin american studies teacher (who was later murdered along with his wife, by a male dancer from one of the gay bars in the big city) telling the class the amazon rain forest will be gone in 20 years. I do think it was global cooling back then. 13 years old and we would probably have an ice age by my retirement. I really think we should stick with the existing science as we see it. Of course it is better to be good stewards of the environemnt. But alboreing is nutz.
RedRocker
Active member
Owl Gore is a hypocrite, if he's your answer then you don't understand the question! PB hit the nail on the head, look at California, over populated like crazy! Who says "Man" is supposed to live forever? We'll be extinct just like everything else at some point in time, so relax and enjoy your stay.
daedong
New member
I reckon I would rather put my faith in the majority of specialised, highly educated scientist long before FF experts. Al Gore is only the messenger for the greater /broader / scientific community, I reckon they would know better than most of you folks.
I believe the
already in Australia, We are in the worst drought on record and believed to be the worst in more than 1000 years, and there is no sign of it breaking.
I believe the
already in Australia, We are in the worst drought on record and believed to be the worst in more than 1000 years, and there is no sign of it breaking.
RedRocker
Active member
You might check out what the founder of the weather channel thinks about this topic. There ain't any money for "scientists" that aren't on the global warming bandwagon, always follow the money!! As far as "Us folks" goes, I try to research who I listen to, and big Al ain't it. The only thing scarier than that is half the people here voted for him. I'm more worried about that than global warming.
http://icecap.us/index.php/go/joes-b...lobal_warming/
http://icecap.us/index.php/go/joes-b...lobal_warming/
My dad always told me that the really smart guys always start religions because they make so much money and don't have to pay taxes.
I think Al Gore is pretty smart, he saw the opportunity and got on the new religion bandwagon. He's working hard to get it tax-exempt too.
It's all about making money for Al:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21756222/
Remember that this was the guy that after he lost the Presidential election spent a year looking for work and the mainstream financial and investment firms wouldn't touch him. He had to find something to make himself marketable - the environment is what he chose.
I think Al Gore is pretty smart, he saw the opportunity and got on the new religion bandwagon. He's working hard to get it tax-exempt too.
It's all about making money for Al:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21756222/
Remember that this was the guy that after he lost the Presidential election spent a year looking for work and the mainstream financial and investment firms wouldn't touch him. He had to find something to make himself marketable - the environment is what he chose.
Just to give the dead horse another kick:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...in_article_id=500586&in_page_id=1766&ito=1490
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...in_article_id=500586&in_page_id=1766&ito=1490
Al Gore is criticised for lining his own pockets after £3,300-per-minute green speech
By NATHAN KAY - More by this author » Last updated at 23:25pm on 8th December 2007
Comments (2)
Al Gore has come under fire for making personal gain from his mission to save the planet – after charging £3,300 a minute to deliver a poorly received speech.
The former American Vice-President was also accused of being "precious" at the London event, demanding his own VIP room and ejecting journalists, despite hopes the star-studded gathering would generate publicity for the fight against global warming.
Many of the audience at last month's Fortune Forum summit were restless as Mr Gore, who has won both a Nobel Peace Prize and an Oscar for his campaigning work this year, delivered the half-hour speech that netted him £100,000. Scroll down for more...
Exclusion zone: The former Vice-President, with Fortune Forum's founder Renu Mehta
The glittering fundraiser was held in The Royal Courts of Justice and attracted world leaders, entrepreneurs and celebrity activists including Bob Geldof, Darryl Hannah and Jerry Hall, who was there as "a Special Ambassador of The Alliance for a New Humanity". Guests had paid between £1,000 and £50,000 to attend.
But a source told The Mail on Sunday: "Many guests looked tired and began to talk among themselves during his speech. Heads began to twitch with tiredness.
"Al uses his position for great personal gain. He goes from event to event delivering a similar speech, earning a large fee, and a lot of the time he doesn't actually inform the audience.
"He refused to speak to journalists and security would usher away VIP guests and the Press.
"He was being very precious and demanded his own VIP room before the event, where he held his own exclusive reception.
"The other guests were cut off. It was very clear that many guests were disappointed by this." Sroll down for more...
Bore: Gore picked up £100,000 for delivering a speech 'similar' to all the others and had heads 'twitching with tiredness'
Even some of the charities benefitting from the event were unhappy with the actions of 59-year-old Mr Gore and his entourage, especially the way they treated invited guests.
Paul Hetherington, media relations manager for WaterAid, said: "Pictures couldn't be taken and people were being moved out of the main hall so they couldn't experience the event. It was very disruptive.
"We had to apologise to people who were invited. We wanted to say thank you for all the support that many people had given us, but some of them were asked to leave.
"Many guests were invited by the hosts, so why should the speaker have any control over these guests and removing the media? It defeated the object of trying to raise awareness of the cause."
A source added: "Al had two people working for him: a woman who was his assistant and a male security officer who enrolled the help of security guards at The Royal Courts of Justice in a military-style operation to guard Al Gore. They took over the show."
However, a spokesman for Mr Gore, who won his Oscar for the polemic documentary An Inconvenient Truth, told The Mail on Sunday: "Mr Gore donates a percentage of all of his speaking fees to the Alliance for Climate Protection.
"With regards to the media arrangements, some of Mr Gore's events are open to the media, some of them are not. As you know, he has many open events coming up, including the Nobel Peace Prize.
"Unfortunately, this event had more limited availability. I do apologise for that. He does do his best to speak to reporters as often as possible." Fortune Forum, which was founded by socialite ex-model Renu Mehta last year with the aim of attracting wealthy philanthropists to large-scale social and environmental projects, declined to comment.
fogtender
Now a Published Author
Um, there is farm raised salmon, but not for the reason you think. Here in Alaska they still fish for them the "Old Fashion" way, with boats and nets. Farmed Salmon is done because it is cheaper to do, you can harvest salmon without the fishing fleet and costs, it is a money issue not a planet issue.
It appears that you have bought into all the hype of Global warming in the sense the "Sky is Falling". Fact is the world is getting warmer, it has been for centuries. During the last Ice age, most ice was land bound, much is now gone and the seas did rise and submerged the land bridge that connected Alaska with Russia.
To prove a point, fill a glass with ice, then add water until it fills up to the lip of the glass. The ice is floating above the lip of the glass, let it melt, what happens.... nothing. The ice contracts back to the normal mass of the water and nothing runs over the side, it just srinks back to normal water mass.
Most of the ice left is water born, not the same land mass at was 20,000 years ago. So when it melts, the world is not going to be flooded like Gore's predictions. The fact that NY City is 10 feet or so above the high tide level isn't world concern, just like New Orleans being built below water level... The Earth simply doesn't care how stupid people are.
This summer I spent much of my time on the North Coast of Alaska (those nasty oilfields) where the "Polar Bear" is endangered!!!... NOT!!! All summer (a daily problem) we had them swimming over 60 miles from the ice to shore, many with cubs and it didn't bother them at all, they just ate a few Caribou instead of cute Seals, then swam back out to sea. It appears that nobody got the Text message to the polar bears that they are in trouble....nor do they appear to care....
Funny how after Billions of years, that man is at fault for the last few dozen or so... By they way, they can't get this next weeks weather prediction right, so you want to sell your soul on "We caused Global Warming"? Besides, I don't mind it being only zero outside instead of -60F.... What is to say what is not "Normal" for us, is perfectly "Normal" for the planet.
Attachments
irate: 
Agreed. I gave him points for this post yesterday so I can't give them for you.Beautiful post FT!!
Cityboy
Banned
I can't. I must spread around more before coming back to you.Fine. Then just give them to me.
