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well water "conditioning"?

dzalphakilo

dzalphakilo

Banned
Moved into new house this past March. Built in '88 unoccupied for at least 4 years before we moved in.

Took care of some trees, fencing and a roof, now the "water" needs to be addressed.

Of course water passed the home inspection, nothing serious pertaining to health.

Sulfur (sp?), calcium and probably Iron is what we need to look at removing.

Our "new" washer from our old house is less than 2 years old. Since March, living here, heavy color discolorization (sp?) in the washing machine due to the well water. Faucets (sp?) have the same issue.

Can "smell" the sulfur (sp?) as well.

Issue is driving my wife nuts.

What type of filter/filters should I be looking at.

Can I get by with a $50 box store filter or do I need to call a "professional" company to come out and spend more money that I would like.

Any input/experiences would be appreciative.

Thks
 
Do you have a water softener and a whole house filter in place?
 
Luckily, we don't have a sulphur issue, only iron.

We have a softener servicing the whole house, and a small Reverse Osmosis unit that feeds the refrigerator. For some reason, ice made with anything less that crystal clear water tastes funky. :puke1:
 
We had the same issues with our well water.

I put in a Rainsoft system that took care of everything. Makes some nice soft water...
It was kind of pricy though. It was about 10 years ago and cost about $4800 back then.
 
How coincidental! My sons best friend ran over my water well head (top of the casing) on his ATV yesterday. It was covered in snow and all sorts a chit (mud & snow) fell in the well, stirring it up. Didn't have the stuff to fix it last night so we flushed the well and I changed filters. Ran out of water this morning after two showers (house is full by the way), plugged sediment filter (the only filter I run for water). Flushed the well, changed the filter and went to get the stuff for repair. By the time I got back, plugged filter.

Fixed the well head, flushed the well, changed the filter and dumped a gallon a bleach in the well (bacteria). We're now going through the arduous task of flushing the lines in the house and completing the bleaching of the lines. Bad thing is the bleach breaks up the deposits in the lines and it takes a little longer than if they were new. It's getting better and I'm only on the 2nd filter since the bleach. I reckon by Sunday we'll be back to normal, jeez I hope!

Good Luck DZ!
 
dzalphakilo said:
Sulfur (sp?), calcium and probably Iron is what we need to look at removing.

Our "new" washer from our old house is less than 2 years old. Since March, living here, heavy color discolorization (sp?) in the washing machine due to the well water. Faucets (sp?) have the same issue.

Can "smell" the sulfur (sp?) as well.

Issue is driving my wife nuts.
Click to expand...

We had the same problem here. It turned out it was not the water but the rubber blatter in the pressure tank. The rubber harbored a bacterium that released hydrogen sulfide gas. A quick way to check this is to sample the water before the tank.



Good luck,



Gary
 
bczoom said:
We had the same issues with our well water.

I put in a Rainsoft system that took care of everything. Makes some nice soft water...
It was kind of pricy though. It was about 10 years ago and cost about $4800 back then.
Click to expand...

THAT'S what I'm trying to stay away from:eek:
 
GaryE said:
We had the same problem here. It turned out it was not the water but the rubber blatter in the pressure tank. The rubber harbored a bacterium that released hydrogen sulfide gas. A quick way to check this is to sample the water before the tank.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I'll have to look.

P.S How do you do "mulitple" quotes so I don't have to respond to each post with yet another post?

I've seen it done here before:o
 
You have to open multiple windows and have the same thread on each. Then you do a "quote" as if you are going to reply and then copy and paste that into the one window that you are replying to. Then you do the same with the next persons post until you are done replying to each person. It isn't hard, but it depends on your computer literacy skills as to how easy it is to do. Replying individually is just as good if you are not one of our computer literate guru's. Junk......
 
Lets make it complicated.

Sulfur in water is actually Sulfur Dioxide, a dissolved gas much like carbonation in a can of pop. When you open the top of the can, the interior pressure lessens and the Co2 liberates from the pop (carbonation). Same thing with well water. When you pump the water in your house and out of the faucets, the So2 is liberated from the water due to reduced atmospheric pressure. What you smell is the liberated gas. So2 is chemically reactive with many household metals and rubber items such as copper (as in wiring), vynil (such as refrigerator door gaskets), silver (such as your good silverware, gold (such as your electronic tuners...TV, stereo, etc.). What you need to do is use a chemical that will bond with the So2 while it's in solution with the raw water, solidify it so you can filter it out before it gets to the faucet. That compound is H2O2 or Hydrogen Peroxide. H2O2 will combine with So2 to form a solid which can be filtered off via a main inline filter. That filter will also filter out the Iron dioxide at the same time.
 
M9000 said:
What you need to do is use a chemical that will bond with the So2 while it's in solution with the raw water, solidify it so you can filter it out before it gets to the faucet. That compound is H2O2 or Hydrogen Peroxide.
Click to expand...
Cool info.

How do you go about introducing H2O2 into the system?
 
I've got one of the regular whole house filters, but I put a carbon filter in it, and it gets rid of the sulfer smell for about a month, then I have to replace the filter. One of these days, I'll spend the money for a better system, but that was all I had the money for at the time.
 
dzalphakilo said:
No, but we're going to look.
Click to expand...

The reason I asked is because I wanted to know where to start, so it sounds like you essentially have nothing.

The very first thing to do is take a large glass and fill it up. Let it sit for 30 minutes or so. Does the water start out reasonably clear, then turn to an orangish brown and then eventually all the orangish brown settle to the bottom leaving you some reasonably clear water?

If the answer is YES, then you have an iron problem, not sure how bad, but you at least have that.

You already said you have a sulfer smell too.

Do you also get white build up around your faucets that turns hard? That would be calcium and then you'd have hard water also.

You should be able to take a water sample (fill a quart glass jar with water) to somewhere near buy who sell water softeners/supplies and they will test it for free. My water is very hard, and has a lot of iron, but no sulfer. I had Culligan and a few others come in to do a free analysis, all of them came back with answers that (11 years ago) were priced at $2500 to $3000 (back then). I went to an independant guy, he said start with a filter and a water softener, he suggested that often a good water softener will remove all the iron too. He said in extreme cases, there are iron removers, but he said that they are usually not necessary. And those are expensive.

So guess what, I went to the SEARS store, bought one of their largest capacity water softeners, installed a whole house filter, and my water is fine!!! His advice saved me a boat load of money, the softener was about a $500 model. It died a couple years ago, I replaced it with a new one that cost $739 (also a SEARS Kenmore model).


I also have a Reverse Osmosis system that feeds water to the Ice Maker in the freezer and there is also a spigot for drinking water at the sink from the same Reverse Osmosis system, but I almost never use it. The lovely Mrs_B does, but she drinks a lot of water every day. We use the tap water for cooking, for making coffee, and I use it for drinking.


I would start with a water test. But I would not be hoodwinked into buying a load of equipment. I know a lot of folks who swear by the Sears Kenmore softeners. I can tell you I'm happy I have one. If your iron content is very high, you will need a very large capacity softener. I think mine is their second largest? I should also tell you that every one of the softener people who came out to do the water test for me told me that a softener alone would not be enough (Kenetico, Culligan and some other company came out) They were all wrong! They were all 4 to 6 times the price of what I ended up spending.

I have no clue about the sulfer smell. I don't know if the filtration or the softener will resolve that.
 
I already answered about the sulfur (sic) Smell.

Personally, I'd not have a softener simply because the resin bed in the softener acts as a catalyst if you will, exchanging sodium ions for calcium ions. Essentially what you have is salt water. I have an old Culligan Mark5 in the shop that I'll give anyone who wants it...free.

I switched to H2o2 injection years ago before even Culligan had it. Nice thing about H2o2 injection is that hydrogen peroxide kills ALL the organisms in the raw water while it solidifies gaseous So2. So long as you use an industrial in-line filter of at least 5 microns or less of filtration capacity, the filter will remove the free iron dioxide along with the solidified So2.

I have installed 5 systems, one on my home, one on my rental property, one on my partners well, one down the road and one in a large church. They all work fine. As a testament to the purity of the water, around here, any well newly drilled or deepened has to have a water sample submitted to the county. No one ever passes because of micro organisms present in the well water here. All of our water passed the first time, no questions.

I will tell you all that because of liability issues I will only provide a list of necessary components. Culligan sells and rents a similar unit. I believe their unit costs in the area of 2K. The total cost of the components in my system is around $500.00 complete. The only outside items needed is a supply of 35% H2o2 which is introduced into the holding tank of the injection unit at a ratio of 1 part 35% to 4 parts distilled water. The necessary components are readily available and the installation can be done by anyone with rudementary plumbing and electrical skills.

Any of you can go to your local Culligan dealer and ask them about hydrogen peroxide injection. Like I said, they sell a unit, or maybe more than one unit. They also sell dilluted H2o2 in 5 gallon containers at an inflated price if you don't want to handle it. Personally, I don't mind, I'm overly cautious and always careful.

The liability issue concerns H2o2. H2o2 is photochemically reactive in a concentrated state. It must be kept in a cool place with subdued lighting. Transfer of H2o2 from it's parent carboy to the holding tank of the injection unit must be done carefully wearing safety goggles and rubber gloves. 35% is quite capable of causing blindness as well as skin burns, however, once it is diluted with distilled water it is relatively harmless and the injection process introduces less than 5ppm to the water supply and that is absorbed by the chemical reaction between the So2 and the H2o2 so there is nothing left in the water.

I have personally had this unit on my farm well for over 15 years and not had any maintenance issues other than a filter change once a month and ocasionally cleaning the check balls on the injection pump.

H2o2 is readliy available from any chemical supply firm. It's usually sold in 15 gallon carboys or 55 gallon carboys. I buy the 15 gallon size. 15 gallons last us (our home and my rental property) around 1 year and cost around $120.00

Culligan, in their infinite wisdom, looked at my setup over 12 years ago and told me flat out it would never work, that they had the answer....potassium permagnate...a poison and a cancer causing agent (like sodium hypochloride)(clorox) to boot. Interestingly enough, Culligan came out with about the same unit I have about 3 years later and patented it. Actually, they patented the mixing chamber where the H2o2 mixes with the raw water stream. The rest of the components are off the shelf by other manufacturers so their monopoly on that was out the window. The mixing chamber is superflouous. What is critical is WHERE you inject the solution in the raw water stream.


I have watched folks spend literally thousands of dollars on water softening and purification systems from aireation systems to potassium permagnate regeneration systems to sodium exchange systems and not have the water quality I obtained for practically pennies.
 
Thanks for ALL the info guys.

Had a Rainsoft rep come over per my wifes phone call.

Of course we both HAD to be there for the "sales pitch".

Surprising, very little iron in the water (per this rep), PH level is almost normal, but, per in his words, we have some of the "hardest" water he's ever seen.

Well, after learning how much money we're going to SAVE, first quote was at $7100, BUT for a "first time" somthing or another, we could get it for $5800 if we "signed" tonight.

Told the rep that there was no way I was going to make the decision that night.

He makes a call to the office, tells them his findings, then comes back and tells us that he quoted us for a "two tank" systmem, but he made a mistake due to the sulfur smell, that we actually will need three tanks. BUT...if we sign the paperwork that night, he will "throw in the extra tank" at no extra charge.

Nice guy, but it really ticked me off on the "hard" sales pitch of buy now or pay more later. Not only that, they give you other "things" such as coupons and such, and I'm thinking to myself, just give me the info/product that I'm looking for!

Will need to look at some good water softner systems and compare I guess.

Company that handles Rainsoft also does not have the best track record with the better business buro which has me concearned as well.
 
dzalphakilo said:
Company that handles Rainsoft also does not have the best track record with the better business buro which has me concearned as well.
Click to expand...
Then I would probably walk away...
One thing about them is that they have regions that they stick to. You can't call a different place as they won't touch a different region.
 
I got a very similar HARD sales pitch from both Kinetico and Culligan.

Go to Sears, take your water sample with you. Go to a couple other places and just take a water sample.

Did they tell you how many grains of hardness you have? If so, what was it?
 
B_Skurka said:
I got a very similar HARD sales pitch from both Kinetico and Culligan.

Go to Sears, take your water sample with you. Go to a couple other places and just take a water sample.

Did they tell you how many grains of hardness you have? If so, what was it?
Click to expand...

No, the rep used a "solution" to add to the water. I should of put more thought into it, but after a long day and wanting to see Penn State play, I was letting my wife do the listening:whistle:

Thanks for the input on taking the samples to Sears.
 
My water is very very hard as well. It also has a medium amount of iron. Mine doesn't have a sulfer smell but it does have an odor. I honestly cannot recall the hardness number of mine, but I know my softener is set near its upper limit and it resolves all the problems when combined with a whole house filter.

I knew I was on the right track with fixing my problem when the independant guy and the old guy who was a plumber before working at the Sears Hardware store both told me the same thing. Both also told me that a filter and a softener MIGHT not solve all the problems, but that those two things were the first steps. Both basically said, I needed both of those things no matter what and if the smell and the iron problems were not resolved then they could recommend more stuff. Turned out that I didn't need all the stuff that Kinetico and Culligan (and some other company that I can't remember) recommended I start with.

If your water is as hard as they said it is, then make sure you only look at the upper end water softeners. The higher you go up the price scale, the more efficient they are, and also the more capable they are at softening.
 
The house I left in NY used to be called, "Stinkwata Holla"...

It had high sulphur particulate. M9000 has some valuable information but failed to point out that suphurous water odors can either be gaseous or particulate. Depending on which, a different solution may be required. My house required the installation of a chlorination system. Chlorine, a carcinogen itself, must be used and then removed from the water stream via carbon filtering in order to be safe. The system cost about 2500 USD and was saddled with manual maintenance.

It DID solve the sulphur problem though.

Culigan, Kinetico, the Hague ... they are all big box type shops with severely limiting capabilities.
 
Hey DZ,
They make it all to easy to buy on the spot when they do the in home demo's. I think you'd be shocked at how much of that price is commison for the salesman and the sales manager. They play numbers games. Be glad you did not purchase that way. You saved yourself a bunch of cash. I bet the Kenmore or any other brand you can buy in a plumbing store could do the trick for you and save you at least half the cost of that Rainsoft model.
I'm amazed they still do that pitch, buy now and I can take x amount off the price. Well, then why couldn't you do that tomorrow, or the next day. It's not like the cost is going up. ....but we still have the kitchen knives we got as a 'gift' for enduring a Rain Soft sales pitch. Man, those guys just don't like to leave.
 
When I got the rainsoft sales pitch, I turned him down the first day but said we're still interested.

Each time he called back (every couple days), the price kept going down...
 
B_Skurka said:
Did they tell you how many grains of hardness you have? If so, what was it?
Click to expand...

"8" was the answer I recieved (sp?) tonight.

Ph level was 7.

Called a good customer or mine who does commercial boilers and asked him if he could recommend (sp?) someone who I could "trust" in this area if I want a job done.

Called the guy this afternoon, he and his partner came out about an hour later.

Seemed very professional and informative on the "chemistry" involved, and my wife likes him.

Plus the fact he did the water testing and "sales pitch" all within a half hour.

Did I mention he was about four grand less than the rainsoft system?

Without me even asking, he told me he would have a typewritten proposal out to me the next day (hate to say it, I like those type of "things" when I'm the customer, and the Rainsoft guy didn't even mention anything about a proposal).

Water softener that he would install is a Hydrotech. Any experiences on this "unit" from anyone.

My customer I called is what I would consider a friend (to some a no no in the business world) and I trust him. If this is the guy he would reccommend, and he seems like he knows what he's doing , and he's not giving me any fancy "examples" but the facts, he most likely will be getting the job.

Honestly, I don't give a rats behind about our water (hey, it's clear when it come outs), but my wife does, so if she can be happy and we can save 4 grand, I can be happy:coolshade
 
If it was just the hot water, in many cases it can be a matter of changing to a different type of sacrificial annode in your water heater. When we moved to the ranch, the our house too had been setting unoccupied for some time and we had to add in a second well that had been drilled but not used for 5 years. The sulfure smell knocked over when we removed the well cap but once we got the pump hooked up and water running; we continually flushed the well running it dry repeatedly (we installed a Pump Tech to protect the well pump and shut the motor down when the well ran dry) you do the same thing with a low pressure shut off switch. Anyhow, after running the well empty numerous times the water flow GREATLY improved and the sulfur smell was virtually eliminated. Depending upon the well and your area, this may not work in your case. Another means of removing the sulfur from the water is shown in the below website link. You could do something similar to this on a much smaller scale. Not sure how rural you are but this may or may not be practical.


http://www.malibuwater.com/SulfurMountain.html
Calcium in the water is just a pain in the neck. Iron can stain your clothes and some dishes. You can remove the iron with an iron filter if the content is not to high.

Water Filters - Ametek, KX MATRIKX , Big Blue housings , Sediment, Taste and Odor filters

Otherwise you will have to resort to more expensive methods to remove the iron.

I installed a 1,000 gallon cement tank (septic tank with the baffle removed) that I sterilized and sealed up with silicone caulking that I will have my wells pump into as a reserve tank and then feed the house. The tank costs about $800. You can vent the tank which should release the majority of sulfer or you can use the bubbler stones there as well.

I don't like water softeners as they make my skin feel like I can never get all the soap washed off, not to mention some of the draw backs already mentioned.

Anyhow, just wanted to share a few ideas with you. Hope you can get something worked out on the cheap and make the Misses happy as well!. :thumb:
 
Hey guys.

Sitting here with my BIL who needs a reverse osmosis system for both the ice maker as well as drinking water in the kitchen sink.

He's seeing them all over the place for a wide range of prices. A couple hundred $ at a box store or $800 from Culligan.

Can someone say what the differences are or what he should expect if either was purchased or are they all pretty much the same?

Thanks
 
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