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Water heaters, HELP!

ddrane2115

ddrane2115

Charter Member
The water heater in our home is over 10 years old, electric 40 gallon, and I beleive going the way of the gas one...........out the door!

My question is simple, has anyone installed, used, or in any way been around or know about these tankless water heaters. It is just me and the wife unit here, so shower for each per day, and dishwasher once a day. I like the idea of not heating water all day just to use it once per day, but dont know if the cost of the unit is worth the savings in energy...........and no I dont trust what the manufacturers say totally.

also along those lines, what about programmable thermostats, worth it? and how to install them properly.

thanks guys.
 
Danny,

The Honeywell Pro 6000 has been a pretty good thermostat for us. Easy to program and have not had any troubles what so ever. Easy to install also. Will you save, yes but don't go hog wild on setting it too far back at your unoccupied times.

Tankless water heaters. They are not allowed in our area, not the State of Minnesota but our own municipality has put a stop to them. I can't tell you why but can find out from my Master Plumber tomorrow for you. However my dad in a neighboring town wants a new water heater and we are installing one of the tankless ones for him. Talk to your local plumbers and see what they say about them. Are you planning on installing yourself?


murph
 
These are just my opinions, but it seems to me the tank type wastes a lot of energy keeping the water hot. But the tankless type wastes a lot of water to get the unit to heat it up and get it to the faucet, as it's flow activated.
 
There's a couple members that have the tankless.

When I replaced my HW tank a few years back, I thought about going tankless as well.
I changed my mind for a few reasons.
The ROI just wasn't there. I could get a new ele 40 gal HW Tank for about $150. The tankless were a heck of a lot more although I don't recall the price.

If/when there's a failure, replacing the 40 gal is a piece of cake. I put disconnects about 18" above the tank so I can drain, disconnect, yank it, pop a new one in and re-plumb in under an hour. This was important to me since they always quit at the most inconvenient times.

For the programmable thermostat, take a look at the operators manual before choosing one. The one I have is about 60 pages long and requires a Doctorate from MIT to figure it out/use it. I actually have to pull the manual out to figure out how to switch from heat to cool. Others aren't that complicated. Make sure you get one that's easy to program. Myself, I just set the temp and leave it there, 24/7. If you do start using the programming, don't vary the temp too much (e.g. don't set it to 60 for the night then 70 for first thing in the am). It'll use more electricity/energy trying to climb the 10 degrees then it would use if you set it to 67 or 68.
 
I installed a Rheem 199,000 btu NG indoor unit this summer.

I replaced a 50 gallon water heater with it. I think this thing is great! We have a very large 2 person whirlpool in one of the bathrooms. The 50 gallon heater would get it about 1/4 full before delivering cold water. So, since we had the place, we never used the whirlpool.

Now, we can fill the whirlpool, have the washing machine, the dishwasher, and a couple of hot water tap open the whole time, and I NEVER run out of hot water. I did this once, and wasted energy, but I just had to see it work. It kept on pumping out hot water.

The response time to a hot faucet is about the same as with the tank heater.

To install this, I had to get the gas company to install a larger gas meter. They did that no charge. The install of the unit was simple. It even has a remote thermostat.

The stainless steel vent kit is pricey.

I bought it all on eBay and saved a few hundred bucks, Plus I get a $300 tax rebate this year. So the whole thing, installed by me, cost net about $700 including the vent kit, all the fittings, solder, delivery, etc.

I will never go back to a tanked heater ever again.
 
My next water heater will be a tankless.

Currently I have a 50 gallon direct vent. Hole is already in the wall for ease of replacement. Cost of my current water heater makes it worthwhile to go to a tankless.

They can save you a great deal of money depending on the application and fuel (for myself, that will be the case).

Here in N.C, plumbers put hordes of them in.

Pretty easy to install if your familiar with them. The instructions are easy to follow.

There is a reason why they don't call them instantainious (sp?). You could wait some time, but I already do with my master bathroom being on the third floor and the water heater in the mechanical room in the basement.

If you have an electric heater already in place, no, it probably won't be worth the time to get a tankless if you're looking for money savings. You would also probably have to go with a verticle vent, and that vent pipe is not cheap by any means (cheapest vent option is a horizontal discharge kit) or by going to an exterior mount. In your area, if mounted on the exterior of the home, a freeze protection kit would be a must due to the chances of a power failure.

By the way, the tax credit is going by by next year.
 
Danny, I just installed an electric water heater in my barn. Talked to the plumber about tankless. His thoughts were as follows:

He can install a 40 gal electric for $200.

He can install a propane tankless for $1400.

He asked me to figure how long it will take to recover the $1200 of additional installation costs.

Since this is a low use situation, I could not see the savings of tankless, however, in a high use situation, where there is lots of hot water being constantly used, the savings may be there.

Bob
 
The main reason I went tankless was because of the want of constant hot water. I wasn't trying to save money, though it looks as if it is saving something. I'm thinking in the neighborhood of 20 bucks a month.

If I did not install a tankless, I'd have had to put a 100 to 120 gallon tanked heater in. Made no sense to me.

But ya, it would make no sense to put one in an out building.
 
When we built our house ten years ago we installed a Lennox CompleteHeat system. We had it plumbed with a passive recirculating system to always have instant hot water at each faucet.

Last year the tank developed a small leak and we had to replace our system under a full warranty. We chose a 95% variable speed furnace and a Rinnai tankless hot water heater. I want limitless hot water during showers and running our dishwasher and clothes washer; ROI was somewhat secondary. Our gas bill this past year was 50% lower than the previous year and it was colder this year.

The biggest downside is planning for a shower or hot water at the kitchen sink. My in-laws came to visit this summer and thought we still hadn't replaced our hot water heater since it took two minutes to finally get hot water to the guest bathroom!

I am contemplating installation of a five gallon electric heater and plumbing back into the passive recirculating system.

We got spoiled with the instant hot water that never ran out!

Kevin
 
thcri said:
Danny,

The Honeywell Pro 6000 has been a pretty good thermostat for us. Easy to program and have not had any troubles what so ever. Easy to install also. Will you save, yes but don't go hog wild on setting it too far back at your unoccupied times.

Tankless water heaters. They are not allowed in our area, not the State of Minnesota but our own municipality has put a stop to them. I can't tell you why but can find out from my Master Plumber tomorrow for you. However my dad in a neighboring town wants a new water heater and we are installing one of the tankless ones for him. Talk to your local plumbers and see what they say about them. Are you planning on installing yourself?


murph
Click to expand...

I have 3 tankless Water heaters and love them ! I'll never go back to a standard water heater .
 
I have a gas water heater than recently had the pilot light go out.
My brother in law said it was because of the 45 mph+ winds we were having and it somehow came down through the vent?
He came over and lit it for me, because I feared I'd blow the house up.
Anyway.. that's small potatoes in this discussion I think.
* skulking away red faced*
 
waybomb said:
The main reason I went tankless was because of the want of constant hot water. I wasn't trying to save money, though it looks as if it is saving something. I'm thinking in the neighborhood of 20 bucks a month.

If I did not install a tankless, I'd have had to put a 100 to 120 gallon tanked heater in. Made no sense to me.

But ya, it would make no sense to put one in an out building.
Click to expand...

Your quote could be a little misleading.

EVEN with a tankless hot water heater, you still need to figure out the flow rate needed, and in some cases, two or three tankless heaters are needed for some homes to keep up with the demand.

At that point and money, a good boiler with an indirect storage tank can start to look real good.
 
Dargo has tankless heaters too.

I am wondering about them too because I have a traditional natural gas water heater, but its a big one. 75 gallons. At 13 years old, I sort of figure it may only last a short while longer and when it goes, I really wonder if the new tankless units would be a better option. One thing I do know, it takes a lot of fuel to keep 75 gallons of water hot . . . anyone want my utility bill?

I've also wondered about passive solar with a storage tank connected to a tankless heater. Seems like that would be the real way to go as the tankless heater wouldn't have a lot of work to do because the water would start out "warm" before it ever got to the heater.
 
I have electric now, do these things not come in electric...........I thought they were in fact. What is the vent that you guys are talking about. There is a vent from the old gas, but afraid it is probably shot.

thanks for all the responses, ROI is not a concern, hopefully in 5 years when and if we sell that might be a thing. I too thought about a smaller unit for the kitchen dishwasher and laundry.

Keep um coming please.
 
No, they do not come in electric (or at least I haven't seen any).

The standard vent pipe that I deal with is made I believe from Norway, under a private lable. Very speciffic vent pipe for the manufacturers tankless water heater. You will not be using standard sheet metal or double wall (B) vent pipe for the tankless water heater (or at least not with the brand I'm familar with).

"Usually" the easiest installation for an interior tankless water heater is in a room or basement where you can go straight out through the sidewall to the exterior of the house (that's why with my house, I already have a hole in the brick wall from my direct vent water heater, replcement is already made easier ).

You can vent them straight up through your roof, however, if you'er in a basement, you could end up needing a bunch of fittings and length of pipe, which as I mentioned, is gets pretty exspensive.

Again, you cound mount them on the exterior of the home, no problem, and here in N.C with basements almost being non existant, a lot of guys do use the exterior water heater (couple of different fittings may be needed). As mentioned, with an exterior heater, the further up north you are, the better chances you'll be wanting a free protection kit (two selenoid vales that stop and dump the water out of the tank if your house has a power failure). In the dead of winter, if it's freezing, you don't want water sitting in your water heater on the outside of the home.

Bottom line, you if size the water tankless water heater properly for use (usually for two or three people with a standard amount of useage points within a "regular sized" home, one heater will do just fine), you will never run out of hot water, and yes, it should cost less to operate than a standard Natural or LP water heater (if you're running hot water 18 hours a day, you probably won't save money on your fuel bill).

Again, looks like the tax credit is going by by.
 
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Danny, if you can go tankless do so. The ROI won't be quick and will vary based on your habits and needs. From a serviceability, reliability and convenience perspective they are tops. As some of the others have mentioned there are other thngs you can do to tweek the system to get max performance. The installation of a recirculating system will help with the immediate gratification aspect. You'll love the endless hot water which has a definate value that most don't factor into the ROI. I don't know where your hot water tank is or if the extra space generated for not having it is of any benefit but for me it was a plus. I have a small partial basement and it gave me welcome space for other things. I have put them in many houses I've built and have had not one person wish for something else.
 
I don't currently have a tankless water heater, but I did research them when I replaced my last water heater. The only electric model I could find locally required 2 dual pole 50 amp breakers :4_11_9: .
 
I've had a Takagi T-K1 since I built my house in '01 . It's a nice unit,has been trouble free ,and supplies endless hot water . ( the last part was very important when Tina lived here )
It's compact 18x24" ,has a remote with which You can set the output temp .
(100-167 f ) It will supply hot water to two showers ,and the washing machine at the same time without any noticeable temp. variations .
If for some reason it was to go bad and needed to be replaced ,I'd replace it with a similar unit .
 
Ummmm. 100-167 F water temp...

That's the difference between a residential and commerical tankless water heater.

Residential usually can't go over 140 degrees whereas a commercial unit can go up to 180 degrees (tankless heater).

hot_water_burn_scalding_lrg.gif
 
DZ , whether or not it's in compliance with regs,or not, it does go from 100-167 . I generally leave it at 140as it provides all the hot water for My needs . John
 
nixon said:
DZ , whether or not it's in compliance with regs,or not, it does go from 100-167 . I generally leave it at 140as it provides all the hot water for My needs . John
Click to expand...

John, I copied the hot water burn graph not because I doubt what you say, just that you need to be VERY careful about the water temp setting.

I'm not familiar with the Takagi master controller, however, if that tankeless water heater does go up to 167 degrees, I'm assuming (and perhpas incorrectly) that you could actually set your water heater to go up to that maximum temperture. Mistakes can happen, and at 167 degree water temp coming out of a shower head can lead to some serious issues if someone is in the shower at that time (in seconds).

I spoke incorrectly. The tankless water heater line I'm familiar with only goes up to a maximum of 140 degree water temperature for residential use, just as a safety precaution.

However John, I sincerely don't think that you are taking a shower with a water temp of 140 degrees. Honestly, you might last four or five seconds in that water and then you'd have to get out. Look at the burn graph at what you would get if you stayed in 140 degree water for five minutes.

After looking at some manuals, the Noritz line will also go past 140 degrees on residential applications as well. I'm incorrect in thinking that it was only Takagi.
 
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dzalphakilo said:
John, I copied the hot water burn graph not because I doubt what you say, just that you need to be VERY careful about the water temp setting.
\
Click to expand...

Thank You ,and I agree. .The Takagi has a very large digital display as to water temp .
I can even read it with out My glasses ;)
One of the things that I find annoying ,yet at the same time comforting is ..
If power fails the heater has to be reset to ON ,and then a temp has to be selected .
 
My 3 tankless water heaters have no 120v at all . 2 D batterys is all it needs . Great up in the back country of Idaho where we lose power a lot. There is no stand by pilot either .
 
ddrane2115 said:
I have electric now, do these things not come in electric...........
Click to expand...

Yes they come in electric models too, just not from Rinnai. As already mentioned, you'd need some pretty large wire to feed that thing.
Vents are not needed on the electric models.
 
dzalphakilo said:
I spoke incorrectly. The tankless water heater line I'm familiar with only goes up to a maximum of 140 degree water temperature for residential use, just as a safety precaution.
Click to expand...

I had to have a licensed and certified Rennai installer put my tankless Rennai tankless water heaters in a few years ago. Since my poolhouse could be considered boarderline commercial for parties, he went ahead and agreed to put in a commercial Rennai unit there and a residential in the upstairs portion of my home (which we promptly switched :)). For residential purposes, Rennai tankless heaters will not go above 120 degrees. For the smaller class commercial units they still will not go above 140 degrees. Trust me, at 140 degrees; that's HOT!
 
Dargo said:
For residential purposes, Rennai tankless heaters will not go above 120 degrees. For the smaller class commercial units they still will not go above 140 degrees. Trust me, at 140 degrees; that's HOT!
Click to expand...

All Rinnai commerical tankless water heaters will produce hot water between 120-180 degrees (some newer units 95-185). This is why Rinnai has a residential (96-140 degrees) and commerical line.

That said, Rinnai is doing a overhaul with their product line going into next year, getting hard to keep up with their nomenclature.

Agreed, 140 degree temperature is hot. Per the graph, more than 5 SECONDS and your looking at the possibility of severe burns.

Average water temp for a HOT shower usually does not go over 105 degrees.
 
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Well, I was going to take a picture to show the color difference between the commercial line and residential line and I poked the temp button on the commercial water heater. Sure enough, it went all the way up to 180. :pat: I have to assume that since I've slept a few times since they were installed the 140 degree figure must be the figure he hammered into my head as the figure to not exceed in a residential setting with kids. At 180 degrees, you can make hot chocolate or instant coffee plenty hot right from the tap.
 
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