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VW engine starting issues ~ Help an idiot!

Melensdad

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
My Snow Trac, like most of them, has a VW engine in it. The engine runs great. The problem is starting it. At first I thought I had a starter problem, but now wonder if it is an electrical problem?

I've had occasional problems starting it in the past, winter or summer didn't matter it just seemed like some days it would fire up immediately other days the starter would barely turn the engine. The problem has slowly gotten worse to the point that now the only way to start it is to hook it up to a 20 or a 50 amp jump starter and fire it up. I have a new deep cycle marine battery, and it is kept on a Battery Conditioner when not in use. Doesn't help.

Press the starter button and the starter barely rolls the engine over. :mad:

Connect it to a jump starter and it fires right up :D

Let it run for a while, drive it around, turn it off and try to restart it. No dice :(

Someone with more VW experience care to jump in and tell me if this is electrical or starter related? I want to resolve it before the snow falls in my region.
 
Bob check your engine grounds first, BOTH ends clean the attach point on engine and battery. Check the pos cable for corrosion. If that is not the case it will be the brushes in the starter do not let them soak you for a rebuilt starter just replace the brushes for 5 bucks.
 
B_Skurka said:
My Snow Trac, like most of them, has a VW engine in it. The engine runs great. The problem is starting it. At first I thought I had a starter problem, but now wonder if it is an electrical problem?

I've had occasional problems starting it in the past, winter or summer didn't matter it just seemed like some days it would fire up immediately other days the starter would barely turn the engine. The problem has slowly gotten worse to the point that now the only way to start it is to hook it up to a 20 or a 50 amp jump starter and fire it up. I have a new deep cycle marine battery, and it is kept on a Battery Conditioner when not in use. Doesn't help.

Press the starter button and the starter barely rolls the engine over. :mad:

Connect it to a jump starter and it fires right up :D

Let it run for a while, drive it around, turn it off and try to restart it. No dice :(

Someone with more VW experience care to jump in and tell me if this is electrical or starter related? I want to resolve it before the snow falls in my region.
Click to expand...

Bob ,Have you tried using another battery ?? Maybe yours is bad and will not accept a charge .

My Mercedes 450 SL had the same thing happen as you describe and it turned out to be a bad cable connection at the starter .
 
BigAl said:
Bob ,Have you tried using another battery ?? Maybe yours is bad and will not accept a charge .
Click to expand...
I just brought it up to my warehouse to play with it (bigger shop, more resources) so I will try that. The battery is a new coil type battery, under 1 year old, but it could be bad. It certainly would be easy enough to check out, I've got some truck batteries here at the office that I can test it with.

If not, then I can try the route of replacing the brushes, etc.
 
Always start with a known good battery. Check for bad grounds, and if the cables are old, replace them. If they are old, and have had repair terminals put on them, there is a strong possibility that there is corrosion under the insulation. If all this checks out, then gently tap on the starter with a ball peen hammer while someone else operates the starter. If the starter suddenly starts to spin, then the bronze bushings in the front or rear are worn and allow the starter armature to be pulled down by the fields when power is applied. In this case, new bushings are in order. Rebuilding a starter isn't difficult. Check these items, and then let us know. Junk.
 
Is a deep cycle marine battery the appropriate battery type? I thought the deep cycle were meant for long continuous usage, such as a trolling motor or communications equipment. They have the capacity to be drawn down to 50%-60% ampacity before they need to be recharged. A normal starting battery has extremely high cranking amperage, but can only be drawn down to 95%-97% until it should be charged.
 
Re:OK, Step aside here:

1) there's a brass bushing in the bell housing. It comes in 2 sizes, one for 6Volt, one for 12V. There is also available a 6 to 12 volt reducing bushing. Most Snow trac's have a 6V starter with a 12V solenoid. You are committed to what ever flywheel you have on your engine, 6 V flywheels have larger teeth and fewer of them. It sounds like you have a bad bushing. When this bushing fails, or if it's the wrong size, the armature will rub against the field winding and eventually fuse the laminations together. Now it won't work worth a hoot! Pull the starter, have it re-wound. I recomend against trying to fit a new starter in. Newer starters often cannot even be modified to work. You need a Bosch, German starter with the Steel Cast Nose. Then you need to cut off one of the mounting ears, just like the one that came off your machine. The bushing can be removed with the engine in, but it's a bear. The starter and the Master Brake cylender are probably the 2 hardest things to get at on a snow trac. This is why I always direct folks to rebuild both anytime they have the engine out. There is a full length "Rap" on the starter in the Variator Rebuild section I wrote elsewhere in this forum.
 
mbsieg said:
did you figure your problem out???
Click to expand...
No, but then I've not tried to yet. I got busy at work and my Snow Trac is still sitting on the trailer at my office. I probably won't get to it until the week after Thanksgiving.
 
Hi Bob,

It's Brad up at Mountain Home Lodge. With our SnowTrac we started to see the same problem last year and determined that it was the starter. Apparently, most starters can act "stiff", hard to start once warm. But in this case it seemed to happen especially when the engine was cold. We did replace the starter (sorry not sure of starter model#) and that did fix it.

FYI: Ours got to be so hard to start even jumping to another battery didn't have enough juice to crank it over.

Take Care,
Brad Schmidt
Mountain Home Lodge
www.mthome.com
 
That can also be bad cables. Usually when a starter wears out, it isn't the electrical part of the starter that wears, but the bushings in the drive end and the commutator end. If you renew the bushings, sand down the armature and install new brushes, it will work like new again for very little money. When the bushings wear, they allow the armature to "sag" closer to the field coils. The magnetic attraction of the field coil pulls the armature to it, but doesn't allow the armature to spin. When that happens, no amount of "boost" will over come it. In fact, the more amps you put to the starter, the harder the coil will pull on the field. The "field repair" when this happens is to gently rap the starter case with a ball peen hammer while someone operates the key. Usually you can get the starter to engage using this method, but it only works once or twice before the starter fails completely. When replacing starters, it is best to also replace the cables to the battery at the same time. Even cables have a life expectancy that is usually about the same as the starter.
 
Well I got an email from Gordon Robertson who is having the same problem so I thought I would bump this thread back up to the top with an update on my situation. Mine is still in limbo.

The new wiring (described starting with post #103 at this LINK ) will be completed before the end of the week, new battery wires are now in place, but the battery transfer switch is still not installed. So honestly I don't know if my wires are the issue or if I have a starter issue. But I should know later this week if it was just the wires!

BTW, Gordon's starter is a rebuilt unit and his wiring is new. Any thoughts to help him?
 
Bob, the early VW's were notorious for bad electrical connections. NHTSA issued bulletins re dim headlights and failing wipers. This was before they switched from terminals secured with screws, to the more modern push-on blade type. This might be something to check.

Sorry, there's no help for the second part. :D :yum::yum: :D
 
California said:
Sorry, there's no help for the second part. :D :yum::yum: :D
Click to expand...
That's what my wife says too . . . I was hoping for a little sympathy here from friends but I guess that is too much to ask for :moon:
 
B_Skurka said:
That's what my wife says too . . . I was hoping for a little sympathy here from friends but I guess that is too much to ask for :moon:
Click to expand...

Hmmm..
  • SnowCat VW electrical issues.....
  • Toureg VW electrical issues (brake controller).....
Sound's like you need to re-think your choice of vehicle manufacturer Bob. :yum:
 
Being a VW man for many many years, I have seen this in the past.. The battery is a good place to start. Just make sure the battery is not that old. Meaning no more than 5 years old.. That is as long as a battery will last anyway..
But the answer is in the starter.. Don't just buy any starter from any auto parts place. Sure they will last for a while starting like they are a good one. Go out and get the best one, a Bosch. Last time I bought one it was around $100 bucks (maybe a little more).. And you might have to hunt around for one, but don't settle for any other one.. you will see.. it will last years and years.. Bruce.
 
It's been quite a while since I've been into a VW engine, but I certainly ran across several issues that acted like a bad battery or bad starter motor but weren't. This especially seemed to happen in the tube frame buggies. On several occasions it ended up being the little voltage regulator. I don't recall what they cost, maybe $20, but they seemed to constantly go bad. When they did, the symptoms ranged from dim headlights to constantly dead, or weak, batteries, to extremely slow cranking issues. I don't know how many starter motors I changed and batteries I changed only to still have the same symptoms and find the culprit to be the voltage regulator. You may want to give that a try. I'm actually surprised that I didn't see that listed previously. Maybe it is and I just missed it. Oh well, good luck!
 
Bob/ Guys : you are just going to love this story -- now beating my head against a wall... total machine is done , most parts replaced etc.. full restoration -- however, the starter is the only thing keeping me from hitting the snow..... since we had this apart decided to have the starter rebuilt - which we had done via a parts supplier in Pittsfield mass. he sent out the starter to be rebuilt rewond... etc... we went to put it in the other day and ----- nothing .. we bench tested it ---nothing ...

the parts supplier contacted the rebuilder sent it back and one week later
they sent it back free of charge ...indicating that there would not be a
gaurantee on this one ..... we again bench tested it nothing -- we suspect that this was not even opened up....

sounds like i am going to have some fun with this -- but it does not help me get out on the snow..... has anyone put the the guts of a vw. starter in the casing / mounting part of a st4 starter..... or does anyone have a suggestion... I did purchase a hand crank from bob metzle (sp) in north pole ak. before he move south -- this started machine inside warm building with one crank... but would really like a working starter any suggestion.... gordon robertson
 
Did you have the Transaxel/Variator out of the machine? If so did you re-install the ground bonding strap? It's a braided strap that goes from the chasis to the tranny near the engine mount thats by the shifter. Take a meter and read from the engine block to the negative post on the Battery. There shouldn't be more than 1/4 of an OHM resistance. If you have it mounted in such a way that the pinion wont engage the flywheel the contacts on the solenoid will never close. Have you got the right Voltage? read the section under Variator on ST4 Starters. It explains the 6 Volt Versus 12 Volt issues, gear size, bushing size ..... There's a way around having a body grounding strap, Run a new #2 AWG CU cable from the negative to the engine block direct. There's a bolt hole at the case seperation line on top right in front of the fan housing and also one on the trans axel that were for lifting the engine at the factory. Bolt on to this, it makes an exellent ground point. The wire that actuates the solinoid comes from a push button on the dash that is only hot when the ignition is on. Try taking a jumper directly from the battery to the spade terminal on the starter. It should try to engage. If not your not getting power to the push button.
 
OK !!!:mad: Lyndon should not be allowed to help Bob figure out whats wrong with his Snow Trac . He sold his to Bill . He has lost all rights to discuss Snow Tracs and all there problems .:yum: . A J5 does'nt count either . I am sure that whatever he said is right ,but that doesn't matter . Lyndon ..... Please refrain from sticking your nose in Bob's starter .
Besides I have lots of questions that need answers about my Kristi .
 
Al . . . you are just a spoiled sport!

Besides, it appears that my Snow Trac starting problems may have been resolved when all the new battery wires were run. After getting the new wires in, hooking up the dual battery set up with the switch, it fired right up without any trouble.

Gordon . . . sounds to me like you were screwed by the guy who rebuilds starters? If you tested it on a bench and it didn't spin then the guy obviously didn't do something! Are there any other shops around that can do the job (properly)?
 
Because VW Starters have only one bearing, the other bearing being in the Bell Housing of the Transaxel, they cannot be "Bench Tested" without being plugged into a bell housing. The Armature draggs so severely that it won't turn, or will just barely turn. Not good for the laminations also. This is why the correct bushing in the bell housing is so critical too. Having owned 31 VW's, 9 Porsches, and 13 Snow Trac's that were all VW Air Cooled (except one converted water cooled ST4) I've had a bit of experience in this department.
 
Lyndon, so from what you say, it is possible that Gordon may have to install the starter to properly test it to see if it works. Is that correct?
 
Your Starter MUST look like one of the above pictures. They came with a steel 'nose' and an aluminum 'nose'. Either will work, but you have to hack saw off one of the mounting ears to accomodate the variator towers just like the one that came out of your machine. Early machines had 6 Volt Flywheels and a 6 volt aramature and a 6 volt solenoid. For at least 5 years of production after they switched to 12 Volt they continued to use the 6 volt flywheel and starter. It is critical that you find out which you have and make sure that the bushing in the transaxel/Variator bellhousing is the proper one. 6 Volt is larger diameter than 12 volt and there is a special bushing available to adapt a 12Volt Starter with the small diameter shaft to the larger diameter hole in an old 6 volt bell housing. A worn out or incorrect size bushing will result in the starter "Dragging" and generally not being able to start the engine no matter how much batteries you have. Other "Aftermarket" Starters won't mount up properly. I generally had the starters 'Re-Built' rather than swapping out for a new one. I recently gave at least a dozen of the correct cores, both 6 Volt and 12 Volt to Warren Jones(Snow Trac.Com). Also on the 12Volt vehicle that has a 6 Volt Armature, they changed the solenoid to 12 Volt. This specific starter used between 1965 and 1970 is kind of a home made affair having a 12Volt outer winding, 6 Volt inner core and 12 Volt solenoid. Westeraskmaskiner had to do this to accomodate the 6 Volt flywheel on a surplus of older engines they had. I covered this material in depth in the Variator article elswhere in this Forum. The teeth are diferent sizes on 6 volt and 12 volt. There are roughly 173 teeth on a 6 Volt and some 300 on a 12 Volt. they are not interchangeable.See John Muir's "Idiot Book" it also covers this in depth.
 
Gordon, I just loaded my Snow Trac up onto my trailer to bring it back home (its at my office now). I could not believe the difference having 2 batteries makes when starting the Snow Trac!!! :cool2:

I set the battery switch to "BOTH" turned the key and pushed the starter button.

The engine "roared" to life. Well at least as much as any VW engine can ROAR :yum:

I drove it around a little turned it off and got the trailer ready for loading. Got back in, hit the starter button and again it fired right up. Shut it down and tried it one more time just to make sure it was not dumb luck and it again fired up the third time as if it was a finely tuned race engine ;) Or at least a finely tuned VW engine. It has never started up as easily in the time that I have owned it. In fact I typically jump started it the first time I fire it up for the day. Now some of my problem may have been a stray electrical drain that was slowly bleeding the battery, and that should now be resolved as most of the wires are brand new.
 
POSTS #7, 19, 22, & 26 give more detail than what was in the Variator thread. Perhaps these could be combined with the select parts of the Variator Thread to generate a comprehensive ST4 Starter guide?
 
Lyndon,
I find these threads of yours exceedingly helpful! Now I need to print these out and place in my shop manuals. Seems to me these starters were about the most bizzare combination of parts that any VW powered vehicle saw! Thanks.
 
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