Thiokol Wheel Seal Problem

[fubar]

Need help or advice on correct boggie wheel seals.
The project is a 1301 Swamp Spryte. The instructions and the design call for greasing the seal at the end of each day. The bearing cap has a zerk just like a 'bearing buddy'. The theory is squirt in a little grease and it purges water out the back.
To accomplish this the seal must be put in with the knife edge pointing outwards. But, with the knife edge pointing outwards, this puts the cup and spring exposed to the elements. When we put the seals in 'automotive' fashion, knife edge inwards, it causes the seal to be jacked out of the housing or blows the rubber and spring out when serviced!!!

#1
What I think I need is a proper part number for a seal with knife edge OUT and guts and feathers IN. I assume that some time in the past the seals that are on the machine have been replaced with the incorrect ones therefore the numbers on the current seals are incorrect. And the part number in the manual is a Thiokol number that the part stores can't cross.

#2
Also, apparently the front axle has been replaced and is of a different dimension. And the rear axle has had damage so that where the seal edge rides is pretty rough. Does anyone know if the axle spindles, from the coil spring outwards, can be replaced?

Thx in advance,

 

[Alaska Snow Cat]

Go to Alaska Bearing and they will set you up with the seals that allows grease to flow through.

Some front axels are different dimensions from the factory on snowcats/trackrigs as they take a lot more stress but I'm not sure about the Swamp Spryte

Depending on the extent of the damage to the axel it may be easier to repair the existing one than replacing but I would think that replacement is possible with aftermarket parts.

Where are you using the Spryte? Just curious. Randy

 

[fubar]

I will take an old seal into them and see what they can do.

Three places,
from Eureka north to a Gold Mine.
Up Baldy (dollar and montana creek) behind Talkeetna.
Playing out Petersville way
and of course around home here on Horseshoe lake.

Have you ever removed the axle spindle piece from the axle?
If so,,,how?

 

[Alaska Snow Cat]

Not sure what your looks like but on the Thiokols I had the axel assembly was drop axel that had the spindle suspended and dampened by a rubber torsion assembly. The spindle was a standard dimension and was welded in place. You could cut the welds, knock out the old one, install the new one and reweld.

Pictures of you set up would help.

 

[Snowtrac Nome]

sounds like you have a 600 series axle if you have a torsion spring on the axle give me a call on the alaska reflector or 304 1383 i will you in touch with some one that has some up here also the seal surface can be repaired with a speedy sleeve if it's real bad i have used a sleeve and jb weld to fix a bad one in the past also what you may be looking for is a doubble lipped seal ak bearing can hep you there getting the right seal bearings and sleeve

 

[Mtn-Track]

I have the same seal issue as you on my Tucker wheels. There is a rubber-coated (or some type) C-R seal that Tucker supplied with the new wheels. They are fully sealed so there is no exposed spring. Maybe what you're looking for?

For me, it didn't matter which way I installed them, they would be pushed out by the grease. The only one's I could get to stay in were Timken seals with the metal outer flange but they had to go in with the "guts" exposed. What I may end up doing is use some large washers as a 'cap' for the seals(?).

As a reference, the old seals I took out of the old wheels (that were installed at the factory) were 'guts in' and had been staked in around the edge of the hub. I tried that method and still ended up pushing rubber-coated seal out.

 

[fubar]

Great tips...thx
Randy, it's answer creek not dollar creek...sry

Don, The speedy sleeve is the answer, but I gotta get the spindle off the axle so I can turn it down in my lathe, I have found the codes and will try you on IRLP..Actually will be calling you from the Thiokol on my 2 meter radio.

Pics of the axles to follow...i hope.

I am using national brand seals, but I had forgotten about Chicago-Rawhides coated seals, beats knurling, and they are sealed both sides.

thx

 

[Snowtrac Nome]

drop me a pic as i remember looking at randys 600 axles they didn't like the axles were removable but that was a couple of years ago

 

[MNoutdoors RIP]

we drill a small hole in the face of the seal 3/32 it allows grease to purge without blowing the seal then put them in like you should spring in .

Need help or advice on correct boggie wheel seals.
The project is a 1301 Swamp Spryte. The instructions and the design call for greasing the seal at the end of each day. The bearing cap has a zerk just like a 'bearing buddy'. The theory is squirt in a little grease and it purges water out the back.
To accomplish this the seal must be put in with the knife edge pointing outwards. But, with the knife edge pointing outwards, this puts the cup and spring exposed to the elements. When we put the seals in 'automotive' fashion, knife edge inwards, it causes the seal to be jacked out of the housing or blows the rubber and spring out when serviced!!!

#1
What I think I need is a proper part number for a seal with knife edge OUT and guts and feathers IN. I assume that some time in the past the seals that are on the machine have been replaced with the incorrect ones therefore the numbers on the current seals are incorrect. And the part number in the manual is a Thiokol number that the part stores can't cross.

#2
Also, apparently the front axle has been replaced and is of a different dimension. And the rear axle has had damage so that where the seal edge rides is pretty rough. Does anyone know if the axle spindles, from the coil spring outwards, can be replaced?

Thx in advance,

 

[fubar]

It turns out the spindles are not removable...I thought they pivioted independantly on the end of each axle, under the springs. Only way to fix em is to turn my milling machine head horizontal, lash up the entire axle and machine them down for a speedy sleeve...ain't happening. So I'm going in search of a replacement axle.

 

[Snowtrac Nome]

send me a pic with mesurements i will go check out randys 600 axles

 

[Snowtrac Nome]

also can you just jb weld the sleave in i have done that in the past and it works great

 

[fubar]

Can't send pic of the spindles right now, we have put the tracks back on to move it in and out of the shop.
I understand you used JB weld to hold the sleeve on, but how did you get the Dia turned down enough to get the correct sleeve on? Or are you now using a larger ID Seal?

 

[Snowtrac Nome]

the sleaves i have used are paper thin and can be pressed over a damaged seal surface with the special installer they come with the magic word is pressed if you beat with a hammer you will damage it if the surface is torn up too bad and the sleave slides over it than i use jb weld to hold it in place works good that way some times i need to use like thin wire to keep stuff centered

 

[Snowtrac Nome]

the 2 meter is on the ak reflector now so go ahead and give me a call if you have questions i will be listening for a bit have to clean a stove pipe this morning also i know where there is a sprite for salvage i can put you in touch with the owners it also has the coveted drop box rear axle the rest of the rig was lost in a fire wheels and suspension look pretty good.it belongs to gold prospectors association of americia i would bet they would love to get rid of it

 

[fubar]

Don:
I'm at work right now, (Ha, no radio at the Radioshack!!)
and YES I'm very interested, where is it and how do I get in touch with whomever?
Can't be in Alaska, the tip top radiator ain't shot full of holes!!!

 

[Snowtrac Nome]

Don:
I'm at work right now, (Ha, no radio at the Radioshack!!)
and YES I'm very interested, where is it and how do I get in touch with whomever?
Can't be in Alaska, the tip top radiator ain't shot full of holes!!!

go to the out door channel .com should be a contact there the hulk is located on there cripple river property at the stella creek property i don't know if it can be moved right now but i would give it a try other wise there isn't much snow on the ground which means it could be towed to the road

 

[Blackfoot Tucker]

I have the same seal issue as you on my Tucker wheels. There is a rubber-coated (or some type) C-R seal that Tucker supplied with the new wheels. They are fully sealed so there is no exposed spring. Maybe what you're looking for?

For me, it didn't matter which way I installed them, they would be pushed out by the grease. The only one's I could get to stay in were Timken seals with the metal outer flange but they had to go in with the "guts" exposed. What I may end up doing is use some large washers as a 'cap' for the seals(?).

As a reference, the old seals I took out of the old wheels (that were installed at the factory) were 'guts in' and had been staked in around the edge of the hub. I tried that method and still ended up pushing rubber-coated seal out.

I bought a bunch (well over 100) wheel seals from Tucker last year. Jeff (parts and service manager) told me Tucker had them custom made using a special urethane rubber compound. He said they had experimented with all kinds of seals and found these to be the best. The urethane rubber performs better than a standard automotive seal in cold weather.

The ones I received were not covered on the inside. He suggested installing the inboard wheel seal backwards ("guts" facing out, or in this case in).

While you mention using large washers, Tucker sells a "seal washer set" for about 2 bucks each (one set per wheel). They are essentially stamped washers but they have a slight step and they're fairly thin.

I know Tucker has changed their wheel lubrication methodology over the years and what fits my machines (1979 and 1980 vintage) may not work on yours.

 

[fubar]

Don:
Thanks for the tip, They said that is 12 miles down the beach to the Cripple River Camp, I didn't talk about aquiring it as it is beyond my means to get it to Nome where I can fly it out.
But, if someone else wishes to pursue it....GPAA phone number in CAlI, (home base and operators of the Cripple River Camp) is 1-800-551-9707

Don, Thanks for sharing!!!

 

[Snowtrac Nome]

if you are interested in it it's about 3 miles from the road and i could get it out of there once it stops raining and freezes up again with no snow i could drive in with my pick up if you wated till summmer would have to drag it out with my snow trac i could also strip all usable parts off and ship them out to you i'm only guessing i bet selling that rear end would recoupe all your expences

 

[fubar]

Well, I see axles that I need and you are correct about the rear end.
Let me contemplate this some more and I'll call GPAA again, I'll get back to you, that is a very generous offer you have made.

 

[spoolvalve]

Wow, wish i could get my hands on that !!! doing axles this week, and mounting my seals backwards w/bearing buddys ??? may drill/tap a keeper screw-washer x3 to keep the seal in just in case.. Del k7rlp hey don !

 

[Alaska Snow Cat]

If you mount your seals backwards using the Bearing Buddy it will immediately push all the grease it would normally hold under pressure right out through the seal.

Another thing that folks keep talking about is installing the seals backwards which I'm sure is fine but the make a seal with the lip reversed just for this application.

I grease my axels frequently and repack the bearings every year and still the bearings get water stains on them and some need replacing. Probably if I repacked them at the end of winter instead of waiting all summer and then repacking them I would have better luck.

 

[Snowtrac Nome]

bitto ak snow cat get a doubble lip seal and mount it properly if using a bearing buddy or your greese is going streight out the back . Scotty go ahead and dial up the ak reflector 9070 some time almost always listening you can also do it off echo link. there is a bridge port so echo linl users have access to it