termination from work question

[dzalphakilo]

Our "home office" is in Md, which is where our human resourses department is located.

Been with the company fourteen years, the last seven in outside sales (I'm considered by many co-workers as an "old timer").

Question is not about myself, but a co-worker.

Office manager hired a guy for a full time posistion, basic "idiot proof" stuff such as driving a forklift, unloading trucks, putting up inventory, and sometimes answering a phone or two.

Issue is the man in question had a criminal record, spent time in prison.

Now, this guy has been totally up front with the branch manager, filled out the employment form honestly, and even brought his "record" in (which we would of gotten anyway).

Technically (sp?) the manager cannot hire/fire anyone on the spot. The manager needs approval of the human resources dept. (located in Md).

Now, the branch manger has been with the company about as long as I have. Ex DI that was in the 82nd, takes no crap from anyone, but is fair and honest. He filled out the nesassary (sp?) paperwork for human resources, called this guys minister, mother and other people (such as old parole officer). Everything that the manager found out "told" him to hire the guy. Well, he "hired" him with human resources approval with the condition that they needed to go over the guys record (they had a copy of it before he was "hired" just wanted to go into it in more "depth") . Well, he's been working for us for two months and we were still waiting to here what HR had to say. Guy has been great. No problems, shows up on time, is courteous (sp?) with any of our customers, does what he's told and he can actually think for himself without being told to do something. The guy is Afro American and has dreadlocks. He told the branch manager that if he wanted him to cut the dreadlocks, he would. Both the branch manager and myself have been waiting to hear from HR.

Well, manger got the word yesterday that HR wants us to let him go due to his criminal record. Keep in mind, they found nothing new, just felt that with his "history" he wouldn't make a good employee (if they would of found out he lied, I could understand their decision).

Both manager and myself are very upset.

You have a guy who apparently has turned his life around, trying to "make good" and has a head on his shoulders.

Branch manager is probably more pissed of than myself becuase he feels like crap because he thought his "input" on the guy would matter (he's been telling HR that he's been working out great), and he's was telling the guy that he would probably be off his "probation time".

Honestly, I feel like telling the guy that if he wants a lawyer I will pay for it to take our company to court.

Our "office" is in N.C.

I just don't see how my company can do this.

Does this guy have any legal recourse.

We are a large privately (sp?) owned business that has over 1000 employees. Both the manager and myself know the "owner" and the operations vice president. We've decided that on monday we will call and speak on the guys behalf.

 

[Big Dog]

I really hope you guys can convince Mr. Big to overstep HR.

Good Luck!

 

[XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq]

I don't know. You are really sticking your neck out for someone. I hope you know and trust this guy as it may not reflect well on you if he screws up later. It's a touchy issue and it depends on how good your relationship is with the big guy.

Good Luck

 

[Kubota King]

you have to go with your heart or this will always bother you. There are things I didnt deal with years ago that I should have like this & now that I am older & wiser I wish I had! Hell, I would hire the guy if he lived in CT.

 

[dzalphakilo]

I don't know. You are really sticking your neck out for someone. I hope you know and trust this guy as it may not reflect well on you if he screws up later. It's a touchy issue and it depends on how good your relationship is with the big guy.

Good Luck

PB

I agree with you 100% and have gone over that scenerio in my head already.

I've dealt with the "big" guy before and he knows me pretty well from what I've done in the company, but...one issue is that this is an "operations" issue, not "sales". Fact is if I say anything, I'm overstepping my posistion (sp?).

Talking with the branch manager, he was very "indepth" checking on this guy. I was actually surprised that he hired him in the first place. But...after two months of seeing the guy work, he's a good worker. Per the manager, just seems like the guy made some bad mistakes in his past, but trying to do good. What I fail to understand is why it took them two months to make a decision. None of the "facts" that the manager supplied to HR has changed. They knew "what he was" before we hired him.

It would of been better if they just told the manager that he could not hire him on the spot due to his criminal record.

They let it drag on for two months and they shouldn't of. I was in "management/operations" before and this is one of the reasons I went into sales.

Sometimes "corporate" (sp?) really has their heads up their ass.

 

[dzalphakilo]

you have to go with your heart or this will always bother you. There are things I didnt deal with years ago that I should have like this & now that I am older & wiser I wish I had! Hell, I would hire the guy if he lived in CT.

I agree with you. I have "stuck my neck" out in that past with my company, doing some things I thought was "right" and not nessesarily (sp?) a good buisness decision. I truly beleive that if you do what you beleive is honestly "good", no matter what happens per your decision, good things will happen even if it isn't apparent in the immediate future. I guess I've been lucky in those decisions because for what ever reason, they did turn out to be good business decisions.

This hits home to an extent because although not the same circumstances, along time ago I was given a second chance.

I've already made some phone calls to my customers seeing if they would want to hire the guy.

I realize in todays world, you have to be careful about recommending (sp?) someone, but...

I guess what I'm wondering is isn't it illegal to descriminate (sp?) due to just having a "record"?

I could understand if they said no as far as hiring the guy when he turned in his paperwork, but they're saying no even after no more "new" info came out and he's been working with us for over two months now. HR told the manager that they're afraid he'll commit another "act" while being employed by us.

How is a guy supposed to get a "break" if he made a mistake.

Keep in mind, I'm no "bleeding heart" on this. Fact is, first impression looking at this guy when he came in, on top of the fact that he has a criminal record, I probably would of thrown his application away. 2nd point is that deep down I want to ask Kubota King if they actually have black people up in Ct

Different story now that I've been around him and seen him work.

 

[Dargo]

I can speak from the position of an employer. But first, I need to make a couple of points which will make sense later when I explain my thoughts on this guy. First, I do not care for our welfare system at all. I have no use for it or those who endorse it. I feel that those people who endorse welfare are terrible bigots who want to keep people down. By making people dependent on welfare, you insure that they will never succeed in life and never be a useful member of society. Welfare says that you are a worthless twit who can never make it on your own, so I'll toss you enough just so you can survive. Also, it says that I think you are too stupid to ever make it on you own, so please just sit at home and don't bother useful members of society.

Having said that, I have no problem at all with offering someone a helping hand, or giving them a hand up in life. Many bad things befall good people and, at times, cause those good people to make bad decisions. By offering a hand up, not welfare, I am saying that I believe in you and that I believe you can make it on your own with just a little jump start. It says that I expect you to be able to earn your own way and that I expect you to be able to get back on your feet again.

What does this have to do with the situation you describe? It sure seems to me like this person, and I honestly don't care if he is black, Hispanic, Asian, or white, is trying to admit that he has made poor decisions in the past and is only asking for a hand up; not a free ride. He sounds to me like a person who has some pride and wants to prove that he is a better person than what his record shows. It would be easy for him to work our welfare system and revert to a freeloader on society, but he is not. True, I would keep a fairly close eye on him, but it sounds like he is proving that his word is true. To pull the rug out from under his feet now would simply be a pathetic move. Even in general, I despise the ACLU, this situation would be one where they could actually do the right thing and help this individual. Someone is trying to hold this man down. Sure, he apparently has made past mistakes, but haven't we all. I have no criminal record at all, not even a speeding ticket, but that does not make me feel that I am a superior person to the guy you are describing. I'd just bet that he has been dealt a set of cards that were not as fortunate as mine. You have to play the cards you are dealt in life.

From the side of the story you told, it would be a travesty to end his employment now for unjust reasons. If this is done, I do believe that he should seek legal recourse. But, hey, that's just me.

 

[Cityboy]

What Dargo said pretty much sums up my opinion as well. I too am currently in the employer position, have been an employee, and have done some stupid things in my own life and see this situation from both sides. If your company fires this man without giving him a fair shake, I hope he sues the ass of the company and wins. If your heart tells you it is the right thing to do, go to bat for this man in whatever capacity you are able. You will never regret doing the right thing.

 

[dzalphakilo]

Dargo and Cityboy, sorta nailed some of my thoughts on the head so to speak.

He doesn't seem like the type of guy who would make waves. Talked with the manager today who talked to him today. Manager gave him the news and he told me the guy took it pretty well. Manager is going to call monday afternoon to home office.

Thats whats makes this hard. The guy went out of his way to be an great employee. When I found out he would cut his hair, well to me that said it all.

Thinking about ACLU may not be a bad option. Have a black employee who was hired, branch management thinks he's doing a great job, but company still lets him go even though they did have his background check and related information and they still let the manager hire him. and let him work for two months before the decide to let him go.

What really ticks me off is that we had an Afro American manager in a location who "couldn't cut it", was demoted, brought in another (caucasion) manager, but still paid the former manager his same salary even though he was demoted becuase the company was afriad it would be accused of discrimination.

I could go into long stories of our HR dept, sometimes I wonder why they even exists.

Thanks for the input

 

[Cowboyjg]

It's not clear what your company does or what his responsibilities or capabilities are. If this man has a desire to live in Florida, has construction skills, is willing to continue to be a stand up guy, I may have a place for him. God seems to have blessed me with the task of taking lost souls and providing a place for them to be productive participants in this somewhat crazy world of ours.

you can PM me and we can discuss this as an option. I also have connections in a variety of trades that may also be of help.

John

 

[dzalphakilo]

Cowboyjg

Appreciate it, but I don't think he wants to leave N.C. (I think he had a good "support group" here). He really doesn't have any trade skills, but I might be able to find him a job with one of our customers.

Thinking about, if we told HR that he (man being terminated) came in with someone who asked us about how he worked, and we explained to HR that we "accidently" told them the truth, and that the local ACLU was planning a protest at our location...

Guess part of the reason I feel involved (and I shouldn't) is that the other day I came in with my truck to pick some things up, accidently left the lights on and low and behold needed a jump. Asked this guy (guy per this post) if he could help me, told me no problem. I pulled out my jumper cables and came over to his car. I noticed in the back seat a couple of scriptures that he had written on paper along with a Bible. It touched me to know that at least he might find some answers.

Worst case scenerio I will let him use my name as a reference (along with the manager). Just need to see how it will play out. I only hope that this isn't the beginning (sp?) of something worse for him.

Funny thing as well is I was asked to come to this location to improve business. Everyone was telling me what a hard ass the manager was, hard to get along with and it was his way or the high way. People we're wondering how we would get along because I'm used to getting my way if you want things done. Well, been at this new location for over 8 months now and we get along great. He takes no crap from anyone, but he expects out of you what he expects out of himself. He won't ask you to do something he hasn't done, and he leads by example. What funyy is that he is taking really hard as well. I can tell that it's breaking him up as well. He thinks the guy has a lot of potential, and is learning better than he would of hoped.

The ironic thing here is sometimes it's so hard to find a person who will actually work, show up on time, do what they're told to do, don't need to tell them to do something because there is nothing to do because they find something to do, show up sober, not a smart ass and so on and so on.

We actually went through a guy before him that only lasted 3 weeks before he quit. Another guy here now after four months seems to be getting sick alot lately (missing work). We let this guy go and we have to go through the who process again (yet another reason why I got out of operations).

Sorry for yaking...just get the feeling if this guy gets screwed like he's going to be, I'll be pissed and other than perhaps getting myself fired as well for telling people what I think, won't accomplish much.

 

[XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq]

I could go into long stories of our HR dept, sometimes I wonder why they even exists.

HR departments exist to manage the human resources working for the company. They often try to be the employees "friend" but in reality they work for the senior management. I would suspect that unless your company is really big and has a VP of HR then the "Big Guy" probably is aware of the policies.

Tread softly, and make sure your career and importance to the company are solid.

Just my overly cautious recommendations.

 

[Cowboyjg]

You should be involved!! Glad you are!!!!!! Offer still stands!!!!!!

 

[dzalphakilo]

HR departments exist to manage the human resources working for the company. They often try to be the employees "friend" but in reality they work for the senior management. I would suspect that unless your company is really big and has a VP of HR then the "Big Guy" probably is aware of the policies.

Tread softly, and make sure your career and importance to the company are solid.

Just my overly cautious recommendations.

I agree. You have to know myself and my history with the company.

I have gone through this before where no one wanted to say anything and I was the one who made a phone call. When I made that phone call I knew I could be terminated, and at times, I would not drop an issue.

I can be pig headed for better or worse. My belief now is that you only go through life once. Do it with honor, due unto others as you would have done unto yourslef, and make your parents proud of the person you've become (a long time ago my dad wanted to kill me, now he thinks I'm ok ).

 

[Kubota King]

?)
2nd point is that deep down I want to ask Kubota King if they actually have black people up in Ct

Were I live...there are a few but they are wealth. But 15 minutes from here is New Haven & West Haven & in those cities, the white people are the out cast's & in their eye's, we are the minority there. I employeed an african american a few years back & although he was a nice guy, he did like to sweat which was a problem. I didnt fire him though, he quite on his own. Whenever we run into each other we are friendly.

 

[Kubota King]

It's not clear what your company does or what his responsibilities or capabilities are. If this man has a desire to live in Florida, has construction skills, is willing to continue to be a stand up guy, I may have a place for him. God seems to have blessed me with the task of taking lost souls and providing a place for them to be productive participants in this somewhat crazy world of ours.

I am the same & 90% of my existing crew were lost souls prior to working for me, that can make great employees if you take the time to train them

 

[dzalphakilo]

You should be involved!! Glad you are!!!!!! Offer still stands!!!!!!

I will mention it to him, again thanks. I do wonder though (and I don't know) if moving would be good for him. I think he has a support group here of family and church. Only thing I would be afriad of is if he moved, new area, new situations and he may find "trouble". I don't know this for a fact, and I can't speak for him, but I will mention it.

Skills wise, not many at this point that I know of (trade wise). I'm being paranoid I realize, but don't want to go into too many detail at this point.

What I do know of him is that he can operate a forklift with no problems, can unload trucks from a dock, can read orders and pick them for delivery, makes deliveries, is courteous with our customers (no complaints on attitude), can read, can learn basic functions on a computer system to access inventory and pricing, pulling up accounts and such. He will pick up a phone without being told to do so (a REAL plus when I see this), keeps busy when all of his work assignments are done, seems to be able to think on his own and can "figure" things out on ways to complete a task if at first the "meathod" isn't apperant at first, and seems to be able to joke around with the other emplyees and just seem like a good worker. I realize that some of these things may be common sense "type things", but honestly, I have seen some real IDIOTS working for us at times (such as delivery guys who uses a customers bathroom for AN HOUR after making a delivery or putting regular gas in a deisel (sp?) truck .

Down side (for better or worse) is his appearance. About 5'9", 190lbs, seems "solid" no flab but usually wears one of the Big but hats to hide his dreadlocks. LONG hair, thus the reason why he wears the hat. To his credit though, and this impresses me, he told the manager if it made a difference, he would cut his hair (which the manager told him not to worry about it). I hate to say it, but alot of time first impressions are important (particularly in a job interview).

 

[dzalphakilo]

I am the same & 90% of my existing crew were lost souls prior to working for me, that can make great employees if you take the time to train them

Thanks, your quote made me think of two other customers who might be interested in him (they have some souls working for them who are still lost and I don't think they want to be found ). I figure it will be hard for him to get into a "large corporate" business such a Home Depot or Lowes, but I do have some customers who have some very interesting people who work for them. Just last week one owner was telling me he felt like a high school principal (sp?) dealing with some of his guys. If he could get a guy that he won't have problems with and does what he's told, he may have a job. Thks!

 

[JimR]

Hat's off to you for trying to keep this guy. Everyone deserves a second chance regardless of the circumstances. This guy sure seems to be doing his job. Your HR sucks. They are nothing more than a bunch of Bigots that don't want a black ex-criminal as an employee. I think this guy has a good case for discrimination against your company. They should have made that decision about his criminal record before hiring him, not after the fact 2 months later. That is his ace in the hole. He worked there for 2 months and has done a good job, hasn't stolen anything and behaves. What the hell more does your company HR want? If I were him I would contact the ACLU. He has all the right in the world to keep that job after working there for 2 months. Your HR manager needs to get a life.

 

[dzalphakilo]

I think this guy has a good case for discrimination against your company. They should have made that decision about his criminal record before hiring him, not after the fact 2 months later. That is his ace in the hole. He worked there for 2 months and has done a good job, hasn't stolen anything and behaves. What the hell more does your company HR want? If I were him I would contact the ACLU.

Thats exactly what I'm thinking, and low and behold, I have the States (N.C) ACLU phone number.

Called the ACLU, if the guys wants to pursue it, he needs to mail no more than a 3 page letter detailing the circumstances, and he should hear something back within 2-4 weeks.

Talked with the manager again tonight. He didn't get much sleep over it last night. He talked with the guys mother and gave her HR e-mails address. We will actually have the guy, his mother and his minister in on Monday for a conference call. The manager is going to talk to the "big guy" himself to plead his case. As the manager said, first time in 14 years he's ever questioned a company decision, and he's questioning this one.

Should be interesting.

 

[bczoom]

Good job Joe. Fight the good fight.

Not sure if this can come into play but is there anything in the company's policy and procedure manual related to hiring/firing as it relates to this case? I have seen many times where decisions are made that do violate the P&P's.

 

[JimR]

Thats exactly what I'm thinking, and low and behold, I have the States (N.C) ACLU phone number.

Called the ACLU, if the guys wants to pursue it, he needs to mail no more than a 3 page letter detailing the circumstances, and he should hear something back within 2-4 weeks.

Talked with the manager again tonight. He didn't get much sleep over it last night. He talked with the guys mother and gave her HR e-mails address. We will actually have the guy, his mother and his minister in on Monday for a conference call. The manager is going to talk to the "big guy" himself to plead his case. As the manager said, first time in 14 years he's ever questioned a company decision, and he's questioning this one.

Should be interesting.

I hope for your sake and the manager's sake that he keeps his job and the employee keeps his nose clean. I think what told me the guy was serious about keeping his job is when you said he was willing to cut his dreadlocks off.

 

[dzalphakilo]

Good job Joe. Fight the good fight.

Not sure if this can come into play but is there anything in the company's policy and procedure manual related to hiring/firing as it relates to this case? I have seen many times where decisions are made that do violate the P&P's.

Brian, been around long enough to see the alot of things, it's not HR's decision, but "someone elses". They have changed the rules a couple of times to "fit the need" so to speak (and sometimes to benifit myself as well I might add).

For the record, if anyone is reading this from my company, this whole scenerio has been made up and is a practical joke (tin foil hat on).

I think the way this will be played out is the guys minister, mother and perhaps someone else will be in an offce along with some other people and a phone call will be made. The guy already has on record from the branch manager that he would keep him due to his job performance. After that phone call, if the guy is still "terminated", it will be up to him as to how far he want to pursue this.

Hypothetical (sp?) if it were someone else I know in his shoes, this person would probably go to the ACLU and get it documented as far as his work evaluation and the thoughts of the manager that he worked for. I would then pursue it through legal.

Apparently, his criminal record is at least 4 years old and he has been clean since (the record "started" when he was a young teenager).

I hate to say it, but I'll probably play it by the sidelines to see how it plays out. It's not my issue persay since it's not even in my department, and I hate to say it, but if he dosen't pursue it, not sure why I should.

 

[BoneheadNW]

Thats exactly what I'm thinking, and low and behold, I have the States (N.C) ACLU phone number.

Called the ACLU, if the guys wants to pursue it, he needs to mail no more than a 3 page letter detailing the circumstances, and he should hear something back within 2-4 weeks.

Talked with the manager again tonight. He didn't get much sleep over it last night. He talked with the guys mother and gave her HR e-mails address. We will actually have the guy, his mother and his minister in on Monday for a conference call. The manager is going to talk to the "big guy" himself to plead his case. As the manager said, first time in 14 years he's ever questioned a company decision, and he's questioning this one.

Should be interesting.

Good for you guys! It has been said already in this thread, but you are doing what you think is right. The way I always look at it is that if you do the right thing and live your life that way, you will never look back and say I woulda, shoulda, etc. If nothing else, you and the manager should be proud that you are acting as this man's advocate. More power to you!
Bone

 

[dzalphakilo]

Good for you guys! you and the manager should be proud that you are acting as this man's advocate. More power to you!
Bone

Wonder if that would help on the unemploymet line

Seriously, I happen to think that my company is the best in it's business. In the six years down here I have done a good enough job that my "compitition" has noticed. Only thing I might worry about is in those six years I've interviewed (sp?) with three competitors (per their request) and turned them down on job offers (not that I'm worried, well maybe a little but the possibility of being call as a witness has crossed my mind).

 

[BoneheadNW]

Again, not to sound preachy, but I always ask myself, what if this was you? How would you feel if the company wanted to terminate you after two months for reasons that they have been aware from the very beginning? You have asked yourself this question and are acting appropriately. What goes around, comes around, and you have every reason to be acting on behalf of this man.
Bonehead