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st4 no power to fuel pump, lights etc

vtmtnbob

vtmtnbob

New member
After getting the rebuilt transmission back in, machine ran great. I went up to camp again after a small snow storm (only about 12 inches of fresh snow). no problems except had trouble turning sometimes so i had to back up turn, pull forward turn etc which worked fine.

i stopped at camp for several hours to do some work. when i got back into my rig it started right up but died in short bit. i noticed the tac was not working. if i let the machine sit for awhile it would start again but then just die again. we checked the fuel pump (Which we replaced when we did the tranny work) and it was not coming on.

i checked the wipers, lights etc and nothing worked. when i checked the fuses one wire was loose (the starter wire surprisingly) . to draw a picture (to see if i have this correct). power goes from the battery to the solenoid to the fuse box to the starter. all the other electrical lines go to the pull buttons then to the fuse box then to the whatever needs the power like the wiper blades, lights fuel pump etc.

so if non of those are working i need to look for the main power from the Solenoid to the pull switches. that wire must be loose.

does any one have any thoughts on the matter?
 
If this is a gas engine, the symptoms of running then dying might be the coil.
But I would also look at the frame and engine grounds. Losing a ground wire
will give you all kinds of whacky problems.

Ralph
 
Mine died the other day, just after I took off to get home. It died so suddenly I knew it was either fuel or spark. I could see there was fuel a the accelerater pump, so fuel was not it. Got to looking and discovered the tach not working, as it usual does when cranking over the engine. So when I knelt down so I could see the wires on the coil as it is upside down....Bingo, one had come off it's spade connector. Moral of the story, if your tach isn't working, better go through the ignition system with a fine toothed comb.

JMHO, Kirk
 
you might oaso check your coil wires to make sure the nut/s are tight I found this out out the hard way on my bombardier 200 it only took me a week/ part time and I found it by accident
good luck
 
the snow tracs all have spades on the coil which hangs up side down and they do come loose this is not your problem your problem has to do with electrical supply to the dash and the wiring is not factory in yours here is the way it should be wired power goes to the starter usualy a #6 gauge wire than comes off with a #10 wire to the master switch aka ignition switch from there one lead goes to the push button for the starter and another one goes to the fuse buss from that buss power should go to each switch or accessory that is not switched like a fuel pump iM guessing the wire feeding your dash may have rubbed on your varriator linkage and shorted through the clearances are tight at the top of the starter this has also happened to me once also if your battery is grounded to the bady hook a jumper cable from negitive termanal to your bell housing see if it starts you should always ground to the engine block and than run a bonding wire or strap to the body not just ground to the body like snowtrac did. if these ideas don't fix it your next step will require some tools and i can help you make it work.
 
i need to inspect all the grounds once again, i went up and followed the connections by hand and they all seemed tight. i did not notice any breakage by the varriator linkage. to make a long story short i could not find anything but since i was there i tried starting, she started right up. which leads me to believe that in inspecting all the wires one of them must be loose or broke and in inspecting it i moved it so it was connected.

when i find it i will post it. for now it is working great once again.
 
Well it was working fine, I took the family and friends up to camp for an overnighter but then when we went to head home Sunday afternoon, she lost electric power again. it would start but once the carb runs out of fuel she stops. no electricity to anything but the starter.

I went up Thursday last week and replaced the starter solenoid and she started right up so i drove her down to her parking space. We went up today and she started right up as usual however i could see there was no power to anything :(

i did find the wire you were talking about don (it is hard to reach under the variator) and followed it, it seemed ok but i will have to check it again. Al the wiring looks pretty tight, my guess is a connection someplace is loose when we replaced the transmission and put everything back together again.

I will have to recheck how it is all wired, all the wires are really tight under the dash but it looks like the power goes to the solenoid, then the ignition and on the other side it goes to the fuse boxes.
 
did they use the origional fuse box if so the problem may be the conections at the fuses i some times have to spin them around to get contact otherwise i might lean toward a bad ignition switch or a loose wire at the back
 
ruling out more items.

dds said:
did they use the original fuse box if so the problem may be the conections at the fuses i some times have to spin them around to get contact otherwise i might lean toward a bad ignition switch or a loose wire at the back
Click to expand...

I am not sure if it is original, i did find a loose wire and reconnected it, Here is a picture of the solenoid and a picture of the switches.

I spoke at length with a friend of mine and we came up with the idea of trying to replace the switch as well, so i will give that a try in the next couple of weeks (its a busy time now so i may not get it right away). To summarize the problem:

0. machine running perfect.

1. machine would start but no power to any electrical items (fuel pump being the important one to keep running)

2. fiddle around, no real changes and nothing. (disconnect reconnect), follow all connections they seem fine. wiring is pretty "tight".

3. a couple days later turn the key and starts right up and runs great.

4. couple days later again starts right up runs great. stop unload. starts again runs great.

5. next day machine starts but no power again to electrical items (item one)

6. couple days later replaced solenoid and started right up and ran great.

7. couple days later machine starts but no power again to electrical items (item one and five)

8. scratch head. when it runs it runs fine (i would think a loose wire or ground would act up as machine moves but when it runs it runs great), we came up with dons suggestion is maybe the ignition switch is not working correct. though if history repeats itself it will work great for a little while :)

one more question, mostly i put the picture of the switches up so that i can ask if anyone can explain the lube oil cooler fan and when and how long i should use it?
 

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lowell said:
you might check any in line splice from the selenoid to the switch
Click to expand...

good suggestion, i have followed most of the wires and they appear (famous last words) to be all ok. i will try the ignition switch next and keep everyone posted.
 
on the solenoid did you use a starter solenoid or a continueous duty solenoid the starter solenoid will get hot a and shut down the cd solonoid will work as a power shut down relay which is what yours is
 
Re: ruling out more items.

vtmtnbob said:
I am not sure if it is original, i did find a loose wire and reconnected it, Here is a picture of the solenoid and a picture of the switches.

I spoke at length with a friend of mine and we came up with the idea of trying to replace the switch as well, so i will give that a try in the next couple of weeks (its a busy time now so i may not get it right away). To summarize the problem:

0. machine running perfect.

1. machine would start but no power to any electrical items (fuel pump being the important one to keep running)

2. fiddle around, no real changes and nothing. (disconnect reconnect), follow all connections they seem fine. wiring is pretty "tight".

3. a couple days later turn the key and starts right up and runs great.

4. couple days later again starts right up runs great. stop unload. starts again runs great.

5. next day machine starts but no power again to electrical items (item one)

6. couple days later replaced solenoid and started right up and ran great.

7. couple days later machine starts but no power again to electrical items (item one and five)

8. scratch head. when it runs it runs fine (i would think a loose wire or ground would act up as machine moves but when it runs it runs great), we came up with dons suggestion is maybe the ignition switch is not working correct. though if history repeats itself it will work great for a little while :)

one more question, mostly i put the picture of the switches up so that i can ask if anyone can explain the lube oil cooler fan and when and how long i should use it?
Click to expand...


I hope Mtn Bob doesn't mind me kicking up one of his old threads.:flowers:


With that said, I realize there has been a bit of a gap in time on this wiring issue, but I believe I solved the intermitant current issues. Before I just spill it does any one want to guess one more time?

It was a compound problem and is quite entertaining (to me) as I am a master electrician and I am still intrigued by the way this combination of issues presented themselves.

Hats off to who ever built this machine I am usually very critical of other wiremens work and I often just start over if i find any one thing out of place. this machine is well documented and professionally done. getting into the wiring harness is never enjoyable but this one was fun for me.

Mike
 
this intrigues me because he dosn't ave the origional equipment fuel fuse box gould be some corrosion around a wire termanal usualy a lot of vw guys like to grab power for fuel pumps and chokes off the coil otehr wise they may have missed a ground strap between the engine and body. also is the external coil resistor still hooked up .
 
I was 100% convinced it was a grounding issue as well, when i got home everything in the machine worked as it should so I figured the bumps in the hwy shook the motor and chassis back into contact with each other.
Grounds:
Upon inspecting the grounds I determined them to be intact.
Main Ground strapped from battery to engine. #2 AWG welding cable.
Engine to both frame and Body. #4 Welding cable x 2.
Power or positive:
Battery to motor @ Starter. #2 Welding cable.
battery to MCS main (control Solenoid) #4 AWG
attachment.php


That handfull of tens go up to each circuit breaker.
Only items fed hot are the ingnition and Lube oil cooling.

The external Crank Resistor is Gone. ( I like where your headed there)

Mike
 
with out being there i wouldn't have a clue as they have changed the wiring so much mine is still basicly stock
 
My WAG would be the culprit is in the last photo. The lead back from the switch to the power on solenoid had intermittent contact allowing the other items powered to not have power.
 
if the wiring didn't look so good i might have guessed that too but they did an out standing job with new wire good termanals and hd shrink wrap
 
All except the AMP terminal on the solenoid. One bad connection or using a fork terminal instead of a ring can do it. It looks to be crimped too close to the connection.
 
Well,

Since he told me on the phone what it was I guess I had better keep out of this one...

Ran the crap out of my ST today. Quiet enough to use the phone while driving.

Regards, Kirk
 
F1 is the problem.

If you count the wires on the MCS there is the large feed/line wire.(Black) and seven load wires.(red) One hot all the time. Six switched or keyed wires. there is ______ breakers!

Kirk you can weigh in as I found out what (did-that-component-in) in the first place last night, I was out last night Actually working and another final piece fell in place that i missed in regards to F6 the back up lights. every time I crossed a creek or deep ditch i put on the back up lights to see how deep the water was and surprise F6 would pop.

Mike
 
ok mike what is it he has a starter solenoid instestad of a continious duty solenoid for his mcs or does it have a weak breaker
 
#1
F1 was not supplying current. breaker was failed. I drilled the rivets out and saw the cause as the temper of the trip element was gone. very blue in color it must have gotten hot. Yet It would not trip.

If you put a meter on F1 there was voltage. no current.

So I ordered a replacement and installed.

#2

The sun went down and I got called to pack snow flakes. Well the creeks are not frozen and they are flowing pretty good so I was paranoid about dunking so I had all the lights on and that is when F6 popped.

so here I sit with a compound problem and How the heck did the element of F1 ever get so hot it turned blue.

It appears to me that the line feeding F2 was intended to be pig tailed to F1 (seven wires on the relay Eight breakers). at some point the jumper/pig tail put F2 and F1 in series as opposed to parallel. this forced current out through the fuel pump then the One of the gauges. with two loads in series they recieved current proportional to their resistances and then attempted to consume current high enough to generate the correct wattage.
In simpler words two hots on one breaker, Two loads on another.

As of now the F1 breaker feeds the gauges. F2 is the fuel pump. F6 lights on the rear. The tops of all breakers have 12V the bottom conections are the loads. One load per breaker.

Fun stuff Mike
 
now i understand all this talk got me to getting to work re wiring under the dash and cabin i have already done under the hood.under the dash was terrable with all the crap added thrugh the years i also had some crap like yours just hadn't come out to bite me in the but yet
 
well I figured out my password again so I can comment :) I don't mid at all I have been waiting to hear!

thanks for posting. I vaguely recall having one of the fuses pop now I wonder if it was I had all the lights on which was rare.

the good news this way is my wife will start work in the new year. so hopefully things turn around for us in 2013.
 
Hey good news.

I suppose it is snowing like crazy there as well.

I found a rolled up paper stuffed up in the dash that had the fuse number and corresponding circuit assingment on it. once I figured out the order of the breakers the intermittent issue fell in place.

the only other item I fixed electrically was the charge light, it never lit up so I looked into it and found a termimal that was sort of loose, now the little red light on the dash glows when the alternator is not charging.

I will remember to snap some photos as I play.

Mike
 
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