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"Special Permit?"

M

mannix

Member
Hey all - I was up on Rabbit Ears Pass, Colorado last week, looking at the snowmobile map. For those not familiar, Rabbit Ears is a _very_ popular snowmobile area.

One thing the map mentioned is that "over the snow vehicles greater than 50" wide require a special permit."

Anyone know what that permit entails? All OHVs need the OHV sticker, so there's Something Else.

Naturally, no telephone number "for more information." I'll call the FS or whoever, but I figure someone here already knows it.

Thanks!


Iain
 
There have been reports and discussions about 'special permits' for snowcats in the past here on the Forums but honestly I could not find a thread when I did a search.

If nobody else chips in with a real answer then I'd suggest you contact the Colorado Department of Natural Resources or whichever body there has jurisdiction over that pass to find out.

It would be great if you could follow up with whatever you find out!!!
 
mannix said:
Hey all - I was up on Rabbit Ears Pass, Colorado last week, looking at the snowmobile map. For those not familiar, Rabbit Ears is a _very_ popular snowmobile area.

One thing the map mentioned is that "over the snow vehicles greater than 50" wide require a special permit."

Anyone know what that permit entails? All OHVs need the OHV sticker, so there's Something Else.

Naturally, no telephone number "for more information." I'll call the FS or whoever, but I figure someone here already knows it.

Thanks!


Iain
Click to expand...

Don't count on finding out what this specifically means, at least not in any of the current reg's. The only thing on the books in this state is for a snowmobile registration sticker for anything designed for transporting people over-the-snow. Other than that, they must be fishing for an OHV permit or guiding permits for commercial cat-skiing operators...

There is no such thing as a permit for "over the snow vehicles greater than 50" wide" in this state, yet, unless you plan to run a purpose-built ski slope groomer on the trails. However, the Colorado State Parks site has a new section as of Feb. 2010 for 'Special Equipment and Registration Restrictions', but only says "Coming Soon". I guess it at least gives you time to grab some 'lube' before they post the latest leaf-licker imposed restrictions for Rabbit Ears....
 
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Iain,

Well? Any updates on your quest with this new permit deal? I still don't see anything in the reg's about the 50" rule except for OHV's. A sno-cat is not an OHV. It's still a 'snowmobile' in CO and WY so the 50"-deal doesn't apply, legally, for now. What did you find out?
 
The snow mobile trail system in oregon on USFS land is by permit to clubs taking care of them. Recreational use is restricted during the winter season on those trails. Other areas on Federal lands cannot have a commercial venture going on without a permit, be it wood cutting or sno-cat skiing. Also, during the summer a forest ranger can write a fire season restriction and have the superintendent sign it, If the winter season has a public safety emergency, the same type of restriction could be imposed. The office controlling the federal lands will have the current restrictions on the front desk. The LEO enforcing these lands can further enlighten you as to what there intent is.
Restricted means there is a CFR written to control specific roads and trails. Law enforcement can then write tickets. This is to keep high speed snowmobiles from encountering something to big to pass on the trail and to protect the quality grooming of the trails for safety. Permits for other uses are generally to allow access to cell towers, and other facilities, Forestry purposes or any reason a Ranger sees fit to write a permit for. Roads not permitted to another user and not closed for another reason are usually open for our use. Don't ya just love all our new freedoms....
 
mannix said:
Hey all - I was up on Rabbit Ears Pass, Colorado last week, looking at the snowmobile map. For those not familiar, Rabbit Ears is a _very_ popular snowmobile area.

One thing the map mentioned is that "over the snow vehicles greater than 50" wide require a special permit."

Anyone know what that permit entails? All OHVs need the OHV sticker, so there's Something Else.

Naturally, no telephone number "for more information." I'll call the FS or whoever, but I figure someone here already knows it.

Thanks!


Iain
Click to expand...


Do you think, perhaps, they are talking about "side-by-side" ATVs like Yamaha Rinos, Polaris Rangers, etc.? I know here in Wisconsin they have tailored the laws to make it illegal for these on the trails.
 
I just went through all this with my snow trac. I contacted the forest service, parks service, local snowmobile clubs, and local snowmobile dealers. No one could tell me how to register it. I attempted to register it with the parks service and they sent it back stating that they had no records for this type of vehicle. I ended up resubmitting a regular snowmobile registration through my local Skidoo dealer. It was excepted (as an unknown model) and now I can just renew it online. I figure that if I can't find anyone that knows how this is supposed to be registered...that any parks ranger that I run into will most likely not know either. I will most likely find out this winter as we have plans to take it up on Vail pass this year and it is nearly impossible to avoid them up there.
 
You should not have any issues on Vail Pass; I was talking to the rangers about cats last weekend.

1. They ask that you not have a blade/tiller on the cat.
2. Register like an OHV/snowmobile
3. Don't be a jerk.

Sounds pretty straightforward, and there are a fair number of private cats on VP any given weekend. From what the ranger said (John, super nice guy), it does not sound like they can _stop_ you, if you've got a blade, but they'd certainly appreciate it if you did not USE it while out. That's the impression I got, anyway.

I never got a straight answer on the Rabbit Ears question - made a couple of calls, got transferred around to a few other people who had no idea what I was talking about, gave up.



Iain
 
I had the same issues and after being rejected as an OHV they said to register as a snowmobile. I did and they sent the same registration as my snowmobiles. So, unless they change it, I'm convinced that is all we need.
 
You guys are correct.

Unless your cat was manufactured as a "groomer", it is considered a snowmobile in the state of CO. The only real issue that you need to keep in mind is the following from the reg's:

33-14-116. Other operating restrictions.
(1) No person shall operate a snowmobile in a careless or imprudent manner without due regard for width, grade, corners, curves, or traffic of trails, the requirements of section 33-14-110 (3), and all other attendant circumstances.
(2) No person shall operate a snowmobile in such a manner as to indicate either a wanton or a willful disregard for the safety of persons or property.

This may not seem like much on first read, but if anyone (read: leaf-licking, hemp-smoking, bunny-huggers) has an issue with your cat than it can be used as a generic way to screw with you, legally.

Just get the snowmobile sticker, follow the snowmobile reg's, and be nice to everyone that you may come across.
 
That's the way the DNRE here in Michigan regulates personal use sno-cats....You have to have a snowmobile trail use permit and obey all the snomo rules, and as long as you put a "slow moving triangle" on the rear, you can run down the side of any "M" road much like a farm tractor can.
However, the groomed trail is not a very safe place to run a sno-cat in Michigan, but there are plenty of non-groomed trails, or lake Superior.
 

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It's obvious that regulations no matter how well defined or vague, are different from state to state. I am no expert but here is what I've learned in WA. National Parks- you can forget about operating anything off road streeet legal or not. Only licensed vehicles on designated roads. DNR land- unknown. I do know that most DNR land I've seen are gated off in the winter (closed to motorized traffic) for wildlife protection. USFS- only allows snowmobiles on USFS roads when A; those roads are part of a "snow park" or B; when the road is impassible to wheeled vehicles I.E. "snowed out". I do know for a fact a "snowcat" in Washington State is not a snowmobile unless it has a ski or skis. That information comes from the D.O.L. board of directors. Special use permits- I have not looked into this one yet but I understand that it's difficult at best to obtain one. Side note; I noticed that different National Forests have slightely different rules governing different things. The best answer for anyone is do your research. I could go to 7 different types of land within a hour of my house and encounter 7 different sets of rules.
 
The Snow trac I bought was registered and licenced as a "vintage snowmobile" in Washington state, and was titled as such as well. So with this paper work I simply registered it as a snowmobile here in Iowa. Between this machine being rather uncommon here and the fact that I have a state trail groomers licence, I have been told I won't have any trouble. I have installed prizm type D.O.T. semi trailer reflective tape on all sides as well as a SMV orange triangle on the back door, just like my farm equiptment has. Our trail system is built on old rail road right of ways or beds. The trails are pretty straight with good visibility, unlike in the mountains with tight curves through the forest. Our trails are quite wide if we wish to make them such, making getting past a cat somewhat easier.

But don't worry, I will be when I am on the trail, looking for snowmobiles. I don't want to be the first in the state private snow cat with a snowmobile smashed into me....SO I will be watching and avoilding snowmobiles, with my lights ON...

Maybe I fix up a drag to pull just to help out a little:whistling: sometimes as well....

Best regards, Kirk

PS. supposed to get snow Saturday....:clap:
 
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Thats good you were able to make the transfer to Iowa without a hitch. I tried to license the Tucker as a "vintage snowmobile" here in WA and the lady at the license agency looked for about 20 min. on her computer and told me she could not find such a category. You must of had a more knowledgeable license agent. I was able to license it as a regular snowmobile because technically Tuckers "ski pontoons" are by definition skis. Was it hard to get your groomers license? Thanks.
 
In MN they guys with cats would probably tar an feather a newbie that runs up to DMV insistant on registering his cat in some way shape or form.

Because we'd just be helping them figure out a new way to get $ out of us.

the bombardier buses might be stickering up but they are a track/ski rig and are legal to run on state trails.

but the track guys I know dont run any stickers of any kind.
 
muley,

In Iowa it is a 3-4 hour course, fallowed by 10 hrs of operation with a fully certified groomer to become certified. The DNR provides the equiptment and replacement parts, we supply fuel, shop/repair services and operators that are certified to their standards. We must document our every move though...... No guns, no alcohol, and no smoking allowed in the DNR groomers, either.

Our club has in all about 6 guys that run 95 miles of trail. 4 of us do the wrenching on the groomer of the 6 operators. This year we are going to add another machine and keep one up on the North end of the system were I an another guy are located. We will have the old Ski Dozer and do about the northern 1/3 of the trail while the newer Ram Ranger will do the rest South of were we turn around. With the new additional machine we are also looking to get two more operators. We should be able to half the time required to get it all done, maybe before the next weather system moves through, and messes things up again! Or the wind blows out our trail.....:hammer:

Regards, Kirk
 
Kirk,

I have a question for you as a groomer AND a private cat owner. What is the consesus within the "grooming community" on private cat owners running on state-groomed trails?

Just curious...........
 
muley180 said:
Thats good you were able to make the transfer to Iowa without a hitch. I tried to license the Tucker as a "vintage snowmobile" here in WA and the lady at the license agency looked for about 20 min. on her computer and told me she could not find such a category. You must of had a more knowledgeable license agent. I was able to license it as a regular snowmobile because technically Tuckers "ski pontoons" are by definition skis. Was it hard to get your groomers license? Thanks.
Click to expand...

I was able to license mine as a Vintage Snowmobile in WA state also. I even showed them pictures of it so they could see what I had. They actually gave me a choice to register it as a snowmobile or an atv.
 
I guess this winter I will be finding out!!:shifty:

I just came from our Snowmobile club monthly meeting. At the end of the meeting my private Snow Trac was discussed, with power point pictures so everyone could see what it looks like. The snowmobilers wanted to know if I could carry beer!!. (some thing not permitted in a DNR machine) and if they could stop and have one with me....

As for the groomers we are at a 20 mile dead end of a single northern leg in our trail system. Myself and a budy of mine ARE the "groomer community" in our neck of the woods. So I guess we don't care much!:brows: Private snow cat, why not? Plus some guys in the club realize that this machine can carry a work crew, and may come in handy for signing trails, or getting workers out with chain saws to clear the trail after storms. It may also be handy to use as a scout for the regular groomer, running ahead finding trouble spots before the groomer arrives. But remember, mine is the only private machine around these parts, and on trails with very little use compared to say the west of Laramie Wyoming in those mountains....I would not want my St 4 on those high use trails....We road out there last winter, no place for a private cat on some of those trails in the woods. Our trails are straight and flat for the most part, with good visibility.

I have plenty of private ground to play on, I only plan to occasionaly run on DNR trails. Just don't want to ruin it for others if another one turns up here. Play by the rules and be very carefull.:whistling:

Regards, Kirk
 
up here our trail's arn't groomed so the snow machiners love to have my cat running up and down the trails leveling out drifts and chewing up hard pack when making multipal runs i generaly try to stagger tracks to make the trails wider as a plus if i come across a broken machine they get a warm ride home and the st dosn't have any trouble towing their dead slead home.also no i don't carry beer gave up drinking manny years ago that way i don't accedently bring a krusty home.
 
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