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Safety issue, or hint of Orwell?

muleman

Gone But Not Forgotten
GOLD Site Supporter
SF cell shutdown: Safety issue, or hint of Orwell?

By: TERRY COLLINS | Associated Press | 08/13/11 4:52 PM




AP Photo/Robin Weiner, File
FILE - Commuters enter and exit a Bay Area Rapid Transit station in San Francisco's financial district in this Sept. 15, 1997 file photo. Officials with the Bay Area Rapid Transit system, better known as BART, said Friday Aug. 12, 2011 that they blocked cellphone reception in San Francisco train stations for three hours to disrupt planned demonstrations over a police shooting.

An illegal, Orwellian violation of free-speech rights? Or just a smart tactic to protect train passengers from rowdy would-be demonstrators during a busy evening commute?
The question resonated Saturday in San Francisco and beyond as details emerged of Bay Area Rapid Transit officials' decision to cut off underground cellphone service for a few hours at several stations Thursday. Commuters at stations from downtown to near the city's main airport were affected as BART officials sought to tactically thwart a planned protest over the recent fatal shooting of a 45-year-old man by transit police.
Two days later, the move had civil rights and legal experts questioning the agency's move, and drew backlash from one transit board member who was taken aback by the decision.
"I'm just shocked that they didn't think about the implications of this. We really don't have the right to be this type of censor," said Lynette Sweet, who serves on BART's board of directors. "In my opinion, we've let the actions of a few people affect everybody. And that's not fair."
Similar questions of censorship have arisen in recent days as Britain's government put the idea of curbing social media services on the table in response to several nights of widespread looting and violence in London and other English cities. Police claim that young criminals used Twitter and Blackberry instant messages to coordinate looting sprees in riots.
Prime Minister David Cameron said that the government, spy agencies and the communications industry are looking at whether there should be limits on the use of social media sites like Twitter and Facebook or services like BlackBerry Messenger to spread disorder. The suggestions have met with outrage — with some critics comparing Cameron to the despots ousted during the Arab Spring.
In the San Francisco instance, Sweet said BART board members were told by the agency of its decision during the closed portion of its meeting Thursday afternoon, less than three hours before the protest was scheduled to start.
"It was almost like an afterthought," Sweet told The Associated Press. "This is a land of free speech and for us to think we can do that shows we've grown well beyond the business of what we're supposed to be doing and that's providing transportation. Not censorship."
But there are nuances to consider, including under what conditions, if any, an agency like BART can act to deny the public access to a form of communication — and essentially decide that a perceived threat to public safety trumps free speech.
These situations are largely new ones, of course. A couple of decades ago, during the fax-machine and pay-phone era, the notion of people organizing mass gatherings in real time on wireless devices would have been fantasy.
BART Deputy Police Chief Benson Fairow said the issue boiled down to the public's well-being.
"It wasn't a decision made lightly. This wasn't about free speech. It was about safety," Fairow told KTVU-TV on Friday.
BART spokesman Jim Allison maintained that the cellphone disruptions were legal as the agency owns the property and infrastructure. He added while they didn't need the permission of cellphone carriers to temporarily cut service, they notified them as a courtesy.
The decision was made after agency officials saw details about the protest on an organizer's website. He said the agency had extra staff and officers aboard trains during that time for anybody who wanted to report an emergency, as well as courtesy phones on station platforms.
"I think the entire argument is that some people think it created an unsafe situation is faulty logic," Allison said. "BART had operated for 35 years without cellphone service and no one ever suggested back then that a lack of it made it difficult to report emergencies and we had the same infrastructure in place."
But as in London, BART's tactic drew immediate comparisons to authoritarianism, including acts by the former president of Egypt to squelch protests demanding an end to his rule. Authorities there cut Internet and cellphone services in the country for days earlier this year. He left office shortly thereafter.
"BART officials are showing themselves to be of a mind with the former president of Egypt, Hosni Mubarak," the Electronic Frontier Foundation said on its website. Echoing that comparison, vigorous weekend discussion on Twitter was labeled with the hashtag "muBARTek."
Aaron Caplan, a professor at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles who specializes in free-speech issues, was equally critical, saying BART clearly violated the rights of demonstrators and other passengers.
"We can arrest and prosecute people for the crimes they commit," he said. "You are not allowed to shut down people's cellphones and prevent them from speaking because you think they might commit a crime in the future."
Michael Risher, the American Civil Liberty Union's Northern California staff attorney, echoed the sentiment in a blog: "The government shouldn't be in the business of cutting off the free flow of information. Shutting down access to mobile phones is the wrong response to political protests, whether it's halfway around the world or right here in San Francisco."
On Saturday at the station where cell phone service was disrupted, passenger Phil Eager, 44, shared the opinion that BART's approach seemed extreme.
"It struck me as pretty strange and kind of extreme," said Eager, a San Francisco attorney. "It's not a First Amendment debate, but rather a civil liberties issue."
Eager said many of his friends riding BART on Thursday were upset with the agency's actions, some even calling it a "police state."
Mark Malmberg, 58, of Orinda, Calif., believes that BART could've used a different approach instead of shutting down cellphone usage.
"Even though it sounds like they wanted to avoid a mob gathering, you can't stop people from expressing themselves," Malmberg said. "I hope those who protest can do so in a civil manner."
The ACLU already has a scheduled meeting with BART's police chief on Monday about other issues and Thursday's incident will added be to the agenda, spokeswoman Rebecca Farmer said.
But others said that while the phone shutdown was worth examining, it may not have impinged on First Amendment rights. Gene Policinski, executive director of the First Amendment Center, a nonprofit educational organization, said freedom of expression can be limited in very narrow circumstances if there is an immediate threat to public safety.
"An agency like BART has to be held to a very high standard," he said. "First of all, it has to be an immediate threat, not just the mere supposition that there might be one. And I think the response has to be what a court would consider reasonable, so it has to be the minimum amount of restraint on free expression."
He said if BART's actions are challenged, a court may look more favorably on what it did if expression was limited on a narrow basis for a specific area and time frame, instead of "just indiscriminately closing down cellphone service throughout the system or for a broad area."
University of Michigan law professor Len Niehoff, who specializes in First Amendment and media law issues, found the BART actions troublesome for a few reasons.
He said the First Amendment generally doesn't allow the government to restrict free speech because somebody might do something illegal or to prohibit conversations based on their subject matter. He said the BART actions have been portrayed as an effort to prevent a protest that would have violated the law, but there was no guarantee that would have happened.
"What it really did is it prevented people from talking, discussing ... and mobilizing in any form, peaceful or unpeaceful, lawful or unlawful," he said. "That is, constitutionally, very problematic."
The government does have the right to break up a demonstration if it forms in an area where protests are prohibited and poses a risk to public safety, Niehoff said. But it should not prohibit free speech to prevent the possibility of a protest happening.
"The idea that we're going to keep people from talking about what they might or might not do, based on the idea that they might all agree to violate the law, is positively Orwellian," he said.



 

Danang Sailor

nullius in verba
GOLD Site Supporter
I can see both sides of this one, but ultimately have to come down on the side of free speech. It is not right to curtail communications
services on the basis of what might happen, or because of fears that people may say things that could lead to unlawful actions.
The First Amendment was put in place primarily to protect political speech, which seems to be what the proposed protest was
trying to accomplish: to protest the actions of a particular unit of the local political system.

This is not a good precedent.
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
Orwell - I'm assuming tax dollars or fares paid for those repeaters. The "officials" have no right to disable them at their convenience.
 

Catavenger

New member
SUPER Site Supporter
What if there was some kind of emergency where someone needed to use a cellphone? I don't like this at all.
 

Cowboy

Wait for it.
GOLD Site Supporter
What if there was some kind of emergency where someone needed to use a cellphone? I don't like this at all.
You mean folks can still use a phone to call in an emergency ? :neutral:

Hell I thought they were just for playing games and texting the asshole thats standing 10 feet from Ya . :whistling:
 

Catavenger

New member
SUPER Site Supporter
I only keep one for an emergency but since I am paying for the stupid thing I expect it to work when I want to use it. Just curious if the people in this case could file a lawsuit?
 

Cowboy

Wait for it.
GOLD Site Supporter
I only keep one for an emergency but since I am paying for the stupid thing I expect it to work when I want to use it. Just curious if the people in this case could file a lawsuit?
Yup came here CA. We had a couple of "so called" friends over last night and why we were trying to have a serious discussion they were both texting each other . :glare:

I told them both either shut the damn phones off or GTF off the property. It was a short evening. :whistling:
 

loboloco

Well-known member
Nowhere in the constitution is there a guaranteed right to use your cell phone. nothing the BART did stopped free speech, they just cut off the transceivers they own and pay for.
 

Catavenger

New member
SUPER Site Supporter
Okay maybe I don't understand first I saw:

"they blocked cellphone reception "






Now I see:



Nowhere in the constitution is there a guaranteed right to use your cell phone. nothing the BART did stopped free speech, they just cut off the transceivers they own and pay for.

I didn't and maybe still don't understand HOW they blocked the cellphones.
So I am confused?
 
Last edited:

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
Nowhere in the constitution is there a guaranteed right to use your cell phone. nothing the BART did stopped free speech, they just cut off the transceivers they own and pay for.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_Area_Rapid_Transit

Governance

The San Francisco Bay Area Rapid Transit District is a special governmental agency created by the State of California consisting of Alameda County, Contra Costa County, and the City and County of San Francisco. San Mateo County, which hosts six BART stations, is not part of the BART District. It is governed by an elected Board of Directors with each of the nine directors representing a specific geographic area within the BART district. BART has its own police force.[80]

Seems like it is a government agency, hence the citizens of the San Francisco Bay area "own" (and probably pay for) the transceivers.

Why do people forget who the government is supposed to work for? :wink:
 

loboloco

Well-known member
But, PB, you miss the point. Anyone who wanted to communicate from the subway could have purchased a transceiver booster and power cells to operate it. All they did was cut off a service provided for convenience. It is not a necessity to bump your gums into a cell phone every minute of every day. I actually wish that businesses and government agencies would install and use jammers to shut the idiots up.
 

loboloco

Well-known member
Okay maybe I don't understand first I saw:

"they blocked cellphone reception "






Now I see:





I didn't and maybe still don't understand HOW they blocked the cellphones.
So I am confused?
In an underground environment, cell phone transmission is blocked by the earth and metal between the towers and the phone. BART and other subterranean facilities use transceivers that pass the signals up to the surface and re broadcast them. This is similar to ATT, SPRINT, or ALTEL shutting down a tower so that there is no cell service for an area.
 

jpr62902

Jeanclaude Spam Banhammer
SUPER Site Supporter
But, PB, you miss the point. Anyone who wanted to communicate from the subway could have purchased a transceiver booster and power cells to operate it. All they did was cut off a service provided for convenience. It is not a necessity to bump your gums into a cell phone every minute of every day. I actually wish that businesses and government agencies would install and use jammers to shut the idiots up.

Or, you could see it as the gummint shutting down telecommunications to qwell a protest. I'm not sure that I'm comfortable with that.
 

Glink

Active member
Site Supporter
Nowhere in the constitution is there a guaranteed right to use your cell phone. nothing the BART did stopped free speech, they just cut off the transceivers they own and pay for.

Nowhere in the Constitution does it specifically say you have the right to own an AR15. But it is pretty much accepted, at this point, that you do indeed.

Your interpretation of the Constitution, in this instance, is quite dangerous in that you imply that the only rights we have are those specifically listed in the Constitution.
Several of the Framers resisted the adding of the Bill of Rights due to the fear of this exact type of interpretation. Our rights exist as a function of birth in general, and of being a US citizen in particular. Governments either acknowledge them, or they infringe on them as policy if the people allow it.

Like them or not, and I too hate the bastards, cell phones have become an accepted form of communication, much like radio and TV. If the receivers that were turned off were paid for by taxpayers, I say this was an overreach.

The real intent of the Constitution is to layout, and limit, the responsibilities and authorities of the Federal Government.
 

loboloco

Well-known member
Nowhere in the Constitution does it specifically say you have the right to own an AR15. But it is pretty much accepted, at this point, that you do indeed.

Your interpretation of the Constitution, in this instance, is quite dangerous in that you imply that the only rights we have are those specifically listed in the Constitution.
Several of the Framers resisted the adding of the Bill of Rights due to the fear of this exact type of interpretation. Our rights exist as a function of birth in general, and of being a US citizen in particular. Governments either acknowledge them, or they infringe on them as policy if the people allow it.

Like them or not, and I too hate the bastards, cell phones have become an accepted form of communication, much like radio and TV. If the receivers that were turned off were paid for by taxpayers, I say this was an overreach.

The real intent of the Constitution is to layout, and limit, the responsibilities and authorities of the Federal Government.
Correct, limit the federal government. This is not a federal agency, however, this agency pays for and maintains the transceivers as a convenience. There was no restriction on cell phone use, any person who desired could have purchased a transceiver and power cell and continued to use their cell phone. If they had jammed reception, then I would have a problem with it. If you want to use your cell phone, it is up to you to be able to get a signal. The same if you have a political view you wish expressed, there is no onus on government to assist you in printing said view, that is entirely up to you.
Further, it is legal for private businesses and government agencies to actively jam cell signals under some circumstances, mostly, in the case of government, for security reasons.
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
Seems to be Illegal . . .

http://www.techdirt.com/blog/wirele...barts-mobile-phone-shutdown-was-illegal.shtml
A Legal Analysis For Why BART's Mobile Phone Shutdown Was Illegal

from the free-speech-isn't-free dept

There's been a lot of coverage over BART's bizarre decision to shut down mobile phone service in one of its stations to hinder some potential protestors. With the FCC investigating, we've heard a number of folks say that there's no First Amendment violation here because there's "no right to mobile phone service." And while it's true that there's no right to mobile phone service, the law is pretty clear that there is a right to not have the government try to stifle a particular form of speech by shutting down infrastructure, solely targeted at that form of speech.

That is, the key issue isn't whether BART needed to keep its mobile phone service up all the time. If it goes down for maintenance, that's fine. But it can't turn it off if the decision is to try to block a particular type of speech. And that's exactly what BART clearly admitted to doing. Of course, it's not just the First Amendment at issue. There's also telecom law, and it appears BART violated that too.

Telecom lawyer/consumer rights advocate Harold Feld has a long and detailed explanation for why the shut down both violates telecom law and is also just a bad idea in general. It's pretty detailed, pointing out the specific citations in telecom law that were violated and a series of relevant caselaw decisions. There's a lot in there, but here's a key citation that reads like it could apply almost directly to the BART situation:
In Pike v. Southern Bell Tel. &Telegraph Co., 81 So.2d 254 (Ala. 1955), Mr. Connor, in his capacity as Commissioner of Public Safety for the City of Birmingham, ordered Southern Bell to remove the telephone of one Louis Pike, described by Mr. Connor as “a negro” of “questionable character” alleged by Mr. Connor to be a “well-known lottery operator in the city” and to be using his phone for unspecified “illegal purposes.” Reviewing cases from other jurisdictions (including People v. Brophy), the Alabama Supreme Court found that the right of every citizen to use a phone was guaranteed by federal law and could not be deprived without due process. As the Court observed:
The present tendency and drift towards the Police State gives all free Americans pause. The unconstitutional and extra-judicial enlargement of coercive governmental power is a frightening and cancerous growth on our body politic. Once we assumed axiomatic that a citizen was presumed innocent until proved guilty. The tendency of governments to shift the burden of proof to citizens to prove their innocence is indefensible and intolerable.
We are not able to glean from the bare conclusions set up in the letter of the Commissioner, whether it is claimed that the “illegal” use of the telephone was by the appellant, her husband, or a total stranger. From aught that was alleged in the plea, except for the conclusion of the Commissioner, no “illegal” use of any type was made of this telephone by any one.
The notice alleged to have been received by the Telephone Company was couched in the terms of a direct order from the Commissioner of Public Safety. What is the source of Mr. Connor’s authority to issue such an order? We know of none. And we hold that none exists.
If we took a contrary view, it would naturally flow and follow that the telephone company would be justified in acting on the notice of any over-zealous law enforcement official who, without evidence, and on mere suspicion, is impressed with the bad character or occupation of a particular telephone subscriber. The letter from Commissioner Connor set up in the plea is no defense. It is the Telephone Company’s burden to show that the use being made of the telephone did, in fact, justify its removal.
These depredations of a subscriber’s legal right to telephone service constitute a denial of due process guaranteed by the Constitution of 1901, art. 1, § 6. The gratuitous and arbitrary action of a police official is no justification for an abridgment of this right. To hold that the Telephone Company is justified in discontinuing service by “order” of a police official would require judicial recognition of a police power which does not exist. The bald assertion of an executive officer, be he the Attorney General of the United States or a constable of some remote beat, cannot be accepted as a substitute for proof in the judicial process. No presumption arises as to the sufficiency of evidence based on a law enforcement officer’s conclusions.
Similarly, the BART's possession of “intelligence” that individuals may use their mobile phones to coordinate illegal activity does not confer “police power that does not exist.” BART must still go to the California agency with actual jurisdiction, the CPUC, and obtain a legal order authorizing the shut down of cellular service.
 
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