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Problem Neighbors in a private neighborhood . . .

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
I live in a private neighborhood, by that I mean the road is a private road and there are land covenants and an association with dues of $100 per year. There is nothing fancy about the neighborhood, there is no "gated" entry. But there are rules that are specified in the covenants.

Last year a new neighbor moved in. They let their dogs roam freely. They park a large (30,000# GVW) truck in their driveway. They don't pay their annual dues.

About week ago the "association" sent them a letter addressing the problems, asking them to cease and desist the violations, but did it reasonably nicely. Pointing out the legal covenants to the land, suggesting they read those, and giving them the address of where to mail their dues.

As of today the truck is still parked in the driveway. The dogs are still roaming the neighborhood. And the dues are not yet paid. And there are constant complaints from long term residents about these issues.

Any thoughts???
 
B_Skurka said:
I live in a private neighborhood, by that I mean the road is a private road and there are land covenants and an association with dues of $100 per year. There is nothing fancy about the neighborhood, there is no "gated" entry. But there are rules that are specified in the covenants.

Last year a new neighbor moved in. They let their dogs roam freely. They park a large (30,000# GVW) truck in their driveway. They don't pay their annual dues.

About week ago the "association" sent them a letter addressing the problems, asking them to cease and desist the violations, but did it reasonably nicely. Pointing out the legal covenants to the land, suggesting they read those, and giving them the address of where to mail their dues.

As of today the truck is still parked in the driveway. The dogs are still roaming the neighborhood. And the dues are not yet paid. And there are constant complaints from long term residents about these issues.

Any thoughts???

We have the same "issues" in our Neighborhood Assoc. People who don't pay their dues or abide by the few rules (there really aren't that many). All you can do is fine them (if so empowered by the association's covenants) and then place a lien on their place if they don't pay. The lien option has worked for us as it typically shows up for any home improvement loans and re-mortgages.

You can also see if they are violating any other municipal or county ordinances and report them but that is not something I advocate unless you are also in total compliance.

Good neigbors are priceless. Bad neigbors make life hell.
 
Catch the dogs and send them to the pound. Does the town have a ordinance about unleashed dogs? Are the dogs licensed, and if not, then the town might deal with it. I sure hope that the "association" has something in the deed restrictions that can put some teeth into the rules, if not, then they are not worth the paper that they are written on. Junk...
 
Well we are not allowed to 'fine' people but we are allowed 2 other options. We can place a lein on their property and we can go to court. The association has the backing of legal land covenants that are placed on each lot.

We are allowed to sue them in court for the truck parking violation and the dog roaming violation. We are allowed to slap the lien for the dues.

But who wants to go through all that? It is not like these are secret rules. And they are mostly just common sense rules. BTW, they are 'city' people.

PB. . .These are the same who woke up to gunfire!

Junk . . . we are 5 or 6 miles outside of any town limits, so the county would have to come to collect the dogs. The problem is the lovely Mrs_B would hate me forever if I called the pound to come get them.
 
Who is responsible for the cost of going to court? If they are, then have the association go for the court deal. If the most that can happen is the association winds up eating the court and legal fees, I suggest that the association be dissolved and the deed restrictions be legally removed. You have a paper tiger without a mouth..
 
You have to enforce these rules. These people are aware of them - especially if they just moved in. I would suggest a letter to them telling them that you will be proceeding with the fines and the lien if they do not comply within a timeframe, and then after that timeframe, proceed! There's nothing unfair or cruel about this - just paople who need to be disciplined and made aware that you will not stand for their abuse of the rules. Sounds like disciplining my 3 yo daughter!
 
The neighor would eat the court costs and would be issued a court order to cease and desist. Everyone would rather they just put up a "radio" fence for the dogs, leave the truck at work, and send the $100 check.

It really makes you wonder what goes on in the minds of people who do these things.

I was on the phone with another neighbor this morning who was complaining that the 2 dogs have been digging up peoples yards! Oh joy. I think my job as a board member for the association pays too little for this kind of fun. (there is no pay!)
 
Bob; I live in a similar setup as you. This is the 2nd house I've owned in the same area. When I sold the other house, I found I had a lein against it from the association, for 1 year in back dues I honestly forgot to pay. They were only something like $65 in the year I missed. Really bad thing was, this lein was placed on my property 5 years earlier, and I knew nothing about. I thought it to be rather sneaky of the homeowners assc. that they couldn't have told me in a "little" more timely manner.

To answer your question, I think your association may be able to do the same thing. I would suggest though, that it's done a bit more above board than what happened to me.:tiphat::beer:
 
Hit the dogs with a paint ball once or twice when they are trespassing in your yard. That will get the owners attention quickly. Another trick is to put out some EXLAX for the dogs to eat. Won't kill them, but will make a mess in the house when it hits. The owners will just think that the dogs got into some bad food and will want to keep them closer to home so they don't get sick again.
 
B_Skurka said:
PB. . .These are the same who woke up to gunfire!

Hmmm . . .

http://www.answers.com/topic/karma

:whistle:

Not that I am so righteous as to deny that I would do the same things as you.

I just spent Saturday planting and fencing in a 150 Foot Hedge of fast growing cedars to block out neighbors that haven't even begun to build on land next to mine. They just seem like the kind of people (dirt bikes, parking their truck right in front of our view, parking their tractor right in front of another neighbors front yard) that don't care about their neighbors. I'm just doing what I can now to limit and potential frustration they could cause in a few years. By then my trees should be 10 + feet tall and block their view of my property while I can easily still see over theirs (I am above them).

Neighbors suck - must by bigger land!
 
Junkman said:
Hit the dogs with a paint ball once or twice when they are trespassing in your yard. That will get the owners attention quickly. Another trick is to put out some EXLAX for the dogs to eat. Won't kill them, but will make a mess in the house when it hits. The owners will just think that the dogs got into some bad food and will want to keep them closer to home so they don't get sick again.

Ditto on the paint ball gun. Nice flourescent paint too!
 
johnday said:
Bob; I live in a similar setup as you. This is the 2nd house I've owned in the same area. When I sold the other house, I found I had a lein against it from the association, for 1 year in back dues I honestly forgot to pay. They were only something like $65 in the year I missed. Really bad thing was, this lein was placed on my property 5 years earlier, and I knew nothing about. I thought it to be rather sneaky of the homeowners assc. that they couldn't have told me in a "little" more timely manner.

To answer your question, I think your association may be able to do the same thing. I would suggest though, that it's done a bit more above board than what happened to me.:tiphat::beer:

I disagree...... you know that the dues are due and they did what they have a right to do. The lein was public knowledge and it is the owners fault for not paying or not knowing the lien was placed.
I bought a piece of property that had a lien on it since 1980, that the owner claimed no knowledge of. It was placed by the IRS!!! He knew that he hadn't paid his taxes and the lien was justified. They attached his income till the lien was paid, and then sent him the release of lien. Like the original demand for payment he ignored it. The lien was never removed and now it is costing him to have it removed.
 
John . . . when we place leins on property we have the lawyer send a letter. It usually gets the dues paid before the lein is placed on the land!

Junk . . . the problem is the dogs would probably end up messing all over everyone else's yards because that is where they spend most of their time.

PB . . . these people are creating their own bad karma with every neighbor in the neighborhood. They've been here for 6 months and things only are getting worse despite the subtle warnings. I had actually hoped the gunfire might create a situation where they might keep their dogs closer. While I would never shoot a friendly but annoying pet of another resident, I do belive a couple of the other neighbors are getting to the point that they may. And I suspect that the law would be on their side if they shote the dogs during an act being destructive.
 
Junk is right, You have to take this to court, or you won't have any rules. At the very least, they will have to appear in court, or the judgement will be the same as automatic.

However, even if the rules require them to pay the costs, likely the only thing you will be able to do is add those costs to the dues when you file the lien. Someone, probably a special assessment of the association members if your treasury is not sufficient, will have to front the costs, and it may be years before you get them back.

More importantly, if you do take them to court and get a court order for them to conform, what are your remedies at that point? Will the court hold them in contempt if they don't conform by a certain date, and put them in jail? You probably need to research this, and then, when you have some answers, put them in the letter you send them. I would also consider a committee to hand deliver the letter; that's more neighborly than certified mail.

The key is that you must take action, or the next thing you know you'll have someone build a stucco house and run a permanent garage sale. If you try to enforce it then, the court will take into account that you didn't enforce it earlier.
 
We actually enforce our rules pretty well, so we have not set any undefendable precidents. And really the best part has been that most people self-enforce the rules because they believe in them! So the board really has minimal work to do.

As for Indiana law, if we win a court case, which is about 99.99% certain, they would be held in contempt of court if they did not comply. Further, they would be assessed court costs BY THE COURT and those costs would be PAYABLE TO THE COURT so we would not have to worry about paying the court fees and then trying to get the neighbor to reimburse us through dues.

As for the 'next' contact, it would not be from the board, it would be an official letter from the lawyer containing a threat that if they don't resolve the issues then we'd be filing papers and seeing them in court.
 
B_Skurka said:
The neighor would eat the court costs and would be issued a court order to cease and desist. Everyone would rather they just put up a "radio" fence for the dogs, leave the truck at work, and send the $100 check.

It really makes you wonder what goes on in the minds of people who do these things.

I was on the phone with another neighbor this morning who was complaining that the 2 dogs have been digging up peoples yards! Oh joy. I think my job as a board member for the association pays too little for this kind of fun. (there is no pay!)

I've got a similar situation where I live. Private covenants but no homeowner association to enforce them. The county does not enforce private covenants and does not care unless it is a zoning violation. I talked to my attorney about it and pretty much decided on his advice that pursuing it in civil court would likely result in throwing money away. My neighbor has a 48' trailer he keeps pine straw in for his landscape business. I have forced him to move it in the past as this violates county law, but I'm just letting it go this year. When his dogs come onto my property I just call the sherriff and insist that the responding deputy file a report of each and every incident. That works well as the frequency of his dogs being on my property is decreasing.

I have considered selling my property to a developer who would build a subdivision on my 37 acres. Since most people around me ignore the covenants anyway, it would probably be easy for a developer to have them anulled and build lots of houses all around the problem neighbor :D (My property borders his on two sides)

If you do decide to take him to court, be prepared to spend some potentially serious bucks and know that even if the covenants appear to be in your favor, you could still lose if this guy convinces the judge that the covenants are unreasonable. Nothing in court is cut-and-dried these days it seems, especially in civil matters.
 
While liens are public knowledge, there is normally no notification by the clerk of court to a person that a lien has been filed against them. I suppose most people know when a lien could or should have been placed. But, liens are actually scary things. I'm grateful that most people are not aware how easy they are to place.

Anyone can place a lien for anything against you at any time. The clerk of court will record the lien, and it will stand until you try to transfer the property. If the reasons for the lien are bogus, you will most likely have no idea that it exists. How many of you check the public records regularly to see if there is anything outstanding? I think about it on rare occasions, but I've never done it.

A friend of mine had a business partnership that went bad. The situation went to court and the court decided that my friend had been wronged. In compensation, they awarded my friend the other partner's complete interest in the business. The partner, who was the cause of the problems in the first place, never accepted that he had lost. He filed a lien against the property owner by the business (it was a small shopping center) for the amount he believed was "stolen" from him by the court. A few months later, he thought of something he wanted to add to the lien. He did not amend it, or cancel the old lien first, but simpply filed a new one with the old amounts and the new amount. He did this three more times for a total of five liens against the property, each one cumulatively higher! The total was more than the property was worth!

When he went to sell the property, the liens were discovered. Of course, he eventually was able to have them all removed, but it took time, effort and money, and he lost several attactive purchasers because they weren't willing to wait, or because they were concerned that the liens might actually be true.

The worst happened. My friend had a financial problem and needed to sell quickly. By the time the liens were resolved, his financial situation had worsened to the point that he lost the property to foreclosure before he could get it cleared and sold.

The former partner did not have to prove a thing to file the liens. Scary, huh?


.
 
"I would also consider a committee to hand deliver the letter; that's more neighborly than certified mail."

Some may see it as a "show of force" if more than one person delivers it.


"The former partner did not have to prove a thing to file the liens. Scary, huh?"

Very scary. Not the first time I've heard of that either, unfortunately.
I hope your friend filed charges against his ex-partner for fraud...that is what he did when he filed the liens and would be liable for damages as well as the current value of the property if he can prove the liens resulted in his loss of the property.
 
Cityboy said:
I've got a similar situation where I live. Private covenants but no homeowner association to enforce them.

Bummer that you guys don't have an association because that is one nice thing we do have. And the vast majority of the residents like the rules and want them enforced. Some wish we had much stronger rules, others wish they were a bit weaker. But generally they are liked and they are enforced. We have never had to go to court. Usually a letter solves the problem and the offenders typcially call a board member (their names/phone numbers are on the letters) and it all gets resolved without much hassle.


As for the issue of leins, they are a bizarre thing. But they are useful for getting people to pay their dues. We've only had a couple people stuck in a position of getting a lein slapped on them for non-dues payment, but when it happens they learn their lesson because the lawyers fees, that they are also responsible for, exceed the dues amount. And we are also allowed to add interest every month too, so they get hit for that. Like I said, its only been used a couple times, and basically against vacant property owners who bought as an "investment" with no intention of building so they thumb their nose at the association. But that is no longer an issue as almost all the lots are built on or are owned by an adjacent property owner who is a resident in the neighborhood.
 
That was only the middle chapter in a tale that could make a movie -- a sad movie. Here's the outline:

1) Partners (Bob and Carl) own shopping center with a convenience store
2) Store goes bankrupt, owes back rent, partners take over store
3) Bob's wife runs store; profits evenly split
4) Carl (who is pretty weird but had the cash) decides that Bob is cheating him on store operation and sues.
5) Court appoints Trustee to operate shopping center and store while case is heard.
6) Case takes over one year and tens of thousands of dollars for accounting fees, etc. but in the end, it's proved that Bob did not cheat Carl.
7) Court awards Carl's share to Bob to cover those expenses.
8) Bob takes over operation from Trustee. Trustee moves to South America.
9) Bob discovers Trustee did not pay any payroll taxes, sales taxes or gasoline taxes during 14 months of operation; about $300,000 owed.
10) Court says there is nothing they can do because Trustee has absconded.
11) IRS and State tax agencies say, Pay Up! We'll review your case and refund you the interest and penalties if we discover it's not your fault.
12) Bob agrees to pay IRS in installments. Sales and Gas tax agencies agree to wait.
13) Carl files liens without Bpb's knowledge. Also files bogus complaints about dirty deli with Health Dept., illegal alcohol sales, contamination of underground fuel tanks and several others. At one point, Carl's accusations lead to alcohol agents confiscating all beer and wine from store and taking Bob to jail in handcuffs; released in 4 hours, and we had to rent a truck at our own expense to get beer and wine back.
14) Bob finishes paying IRS, but has taken no salary, and loses 32' Carver sport fisherman to repossession. Starts paying back sales tax.
15) Bob loses 2 story waterfront house because he can't afford mortgage while paying back taxes, moves into a rental.
16) Bob continues to battle bogus complaints, but that's getting easier as agencies are starting to recognize Carl's voice.
17) Bob finishes paying sales tax, opens negotiations for gasoline tax. It is now about 2 years since Bob regained store. Gas tax agency refuses to cooperate any further; wants entire amount immediately, with interest and penalties, about $180,000. Or, go to jail.
18) Bob decides to sell shopping center to pay taxes, get his life straightened out. Despite mortgage on property, he has enough equity to cover gas tax.
19) Sells property; title company discovers liens. Loses Buyer.
20) Starts to get liens removed. Finds and loses another buyer.
21) Gas tax agency orders sales of gasoline stopped at store. Income drops. Bob cannot pay mortgage on shopping center.
22) Continues to try to resolve liens and sell property.
23) Mortgage company (bank) orders foreclosure. Store closed. Locks changed. All furniture and equipment, including inventory, walkin cooler, etc., lost to either bank or gas tax folks.
24) Liens cleared up; too late. Carl dies.
25) Bob has no more income or assets; State arrests him, tries him for stealing gas tax money. Bob was well known in community; all normal judges recuse themselves. Assign a juvenile court judge to hear case.
26) Witnesses (including me) try to explain situation to judge, who reads other documents while ignoring us. Bob sentenced to two years in jail.
27) Bob, at age 64, is hauled off to State prison. Serves 8 months, becomes eligible for work release. I hire him for my business; he lives in work release center for 3 months, then is paroled.
28) Bob continues to work for me; my most trusted employee, while paying remuneration to state and reporting to parole officer.
29) Bob survives by-pass operation.
30) At age 66, Bob dies from rare lung disease possibly contracted in jail.


.
 
There is a lesson in this story somewhere and I believe it is not to have partners. I know the one I had put the screws to me to, but not in this fashion that Cark did and compared to this story, I came out smelling like a rose.
 
Wannafish said:
"I would also consider a committee to hand deliver the letter; that's more neighborly than certified mail.".


Yes , That would be the nice thing to do , but for whatever reason they have already cast the first stone . A certified letter can be used as material in Court that you actually show a time date in case they lie and say you never told them .
I also live in a private neighborhood and we have a lawyer whose has a "lot" here who has refused to pay one cent for any improvements or maintenace . Says he does not use the road and will not pay . Funny thing is we have increased his bare property value by a $100,000.00 or more . We paid to widen the road , bring it up to fire dept standards and pave it . We don't fight him ,he is not worth it as he says he will just tie us up in court cost .
Just lien them and forget it .
If your CCR's have restictions on parking large trucks in the nieghborhood . Turn then in .
If there dogs run free , Call the county dog catcher . A couple of fines and they will get the idea . If they do not pay their homeowners dues you can bet they don't pay for dog licenses .
What's the worst that can happen ??? They move?
If they are from the city as someone mentioned , please don't lump all city people into this group . Many "City Dudes" are unaware of country life and neighbors helping neighbors . They are from a area where most don't even know their next door neighbor and are afraid to even find out .
Maybe you can try the good nieghbor approach and explain it in detail ,but I would not do it as a posse .
Big Al
 
B_Skurka said:
PB. . .These are the same who woke up to gunfire!

The issue as I see it was that you were aiming to low:D

Seriously, letting your dogs run freely on others property is both rude and ignorant, particulalry if they are doing damage to others property. Their dogs are their responsibility. City folk or no city folk, there is a thing called manners.

Has anyone gone to them "face to face" and explain what their dogs are doing?

Worse case scenerio, get with the other neighbors and have a couple of shooting matches at various times of the day (and night) when you know these people will be home. Heck, if they have any saving grace, they will come out and ask to join you, then you can build on your relationship.
 
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I live in a townhome, so of course that means an assoc and all the rules. I also own two dogs. (Complete with a leash law) The assoc. is very strict with dog rules. We are only allowed to walk behind the townhomes, pick up after our dogs. If we are caught walking anywere else we are slapped with a 25.00 fine. Also, I we have monthly townhome dues, if the payment is 15 days late there is a late fee attatched. (think it is 15.00)
 
working woman said:
I live in a townhome, so of course that means an assoc and all the rules. I also own two dogs. (Complete with a leash law) The assoc. is very strict with dog rules. We are only allowed to walk behind the townhomes, pick up after our dogs. If we are caught walking anywere else we are slapped with a 25.00 fine. Also, I we have monthly townhome dues, if the payment is 15 days late there is a late fee attatched. (think it is 15.00)


I could never live in a condo....why dont you sell & buy a small home?
 
To me a townhouse is a single or multistoried house attached to others on either side. A condo could either be a single story or have more than one floor but attached to the other units on either side, top or bottom with common areas such as entries, hallways, etc.

Normally in a townhouse the garage is part of your individual unit, in a condo the garages are normally placed together.

In most instances you will own your own piece of dirt so to speak with a townhouse. In a condo the dirt is common to all.

With a townhouse you are normally responsible for the individual maintenance of your unit including the outside. With a condo you are responsible for the inside with the association responsible for the exterior as the area of responsibilty are less refined.

These examples are not meant to be all inclusive but general.

In the case of collection of dues, repairs, etc., collection would be easier with the condo as these are normally montly instead of annually.

Either way if it is a condo, townhouse, or an deed restrictions etc, all it takes is one person to make life miserable for the rest as Bob knows.
 
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