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oh no.

M

mannix

Member
Hey all, thanks for keeping a great site going! I've spent the past couple of days reading & trying to figure out what's what. LOTS of good information here (despite the constant bickering about whose cat is better;).

I'm in the market for a cat. Plan on buying this summer, if I can find what I need.

About me - skier, live in Colorado (Front Range). I currently use snowmobiles to ski, and while they're good, they also have a fair number of limitations. A lot of people I know through snowmobiling seemed to think that I'd wind up quitting skiing after riding snowmobiles for a while - so far, not the case. I like snowmobiles, I guess, but I really like skiing.

Taking new people out on the sleds is a challenge - there's a short but super steep learning curve on snowmobiles, at least to get proficient enough to use them as ski lifts (the learning curve is certainly not "short" to actually get _good_ at riding them, but it is short if "ski lift" is the primary objective).

So, I started thinking about it - side by side 4 person ATV with tracks? Did some reading and asking, and it seems that they're not good in deep snow.

Suzuki Samurai/light 4x4 with tracks? More of the same, although as a car-guy, that was appealing.

Snowcat. Why not? Started reading about them, and, well, yeah! I can afford an older cat, from what I've seen, I'm pretty mechanically adept, I have a tow vehicle/trailer....sooooo....

....which one?

My current short list is simple:

-Imp
-Snow Trac

I _think_ those two would best suit my needs/budget. Small, towable with a normal car, 8' 6.325" wide;), seems like they'd both work in reasonably deep snow.

Snow - live in Colorado, so the snow is not as deep as in Utah or the Sierras. That said, with lots of little storms and wind redepositing the 4" that fell, I've found myself in some pretty deep snow in the past.

For those that live in CO, do you think that the Imp or Snow Trac would suffice for moving a total of 3-5 people around? I currently do most of my skiing at Vail Pass, where a 4x4 would almost work, but ultimately, I'd like to get to some more remote areas, make a road, use it for skiing. That's where sled-skiing gets tricky - I can take new sledders out at Vail and not really have any trouble, but if we have to make a road, it gets ugly. Fast.

LMC1200?

So far, I don't really have any bias as to _which_ cat. Okokok, Kristis are ugly. Snow Tracs are appealing because of the VW engine; I get those (although....has anyone fabbed up a radiator and put a Subaru boxer engine in one yet?).

Imps are attractive because they're small.

Any others that I'm missing? The drivetrain is the big-scary for me - on one hand, they seem fairly simple, on the other, it is totally foreign to me.

Anyone in Colorado that has an Imp or Snow Trac who'd not mind giving me a ride? Will pay for gas, errr, _share expenses_;). I have a tough time visualizing how bad/good these things work in deep snow - when some of you say "a Super Imp will struggle in deep snow," it is hard for me to really put a metric on it - some of your definitions of "deep" snow are RIDICULOUS. I've seen a lot of snow over the years, but some of the videos I've seen of cats pushing through deep snow are astounding.

One other question - in these smaller cats, if you're trying to ascend a hill, and it starts digging down, can you safely back up 20', get a running start, try again?

Once the path is made up the hill, can they pretty much crawl right back up?

Seems like a fun mix of mechanized recreation & snow, both things I like a lot.


Thanks!


Iain
 
OK I'll agree that Kristis are ugly too. But they are very capable, and they are light and they are towable by a regular car. I think the real downside to them is their rarity, finding one is simply hard to do. BTW, the KT2 and KT3 both have VW engines so that is a plus for those units and they are the most common.

The Snow Trac, clearly my favorite choice, has some advantages as it has the ability to store skis on the decks above the tracks outside the cabin. Certainly a roof rack would be easy to fit, and I've seen many "ski baskets" added to the back for vertical ski storage adjacent to the back door on Snow Tracs. I think they are the easiest units to tow because they fit on a regular car carrier type trailer or landscape type trailer with the deck between the trailer wheels. I use a VW Touareg to tow mine. I figure the weight of the Snow Trac, trailer, and odds & ends is probably 5000#, add more equipment it the weight would go up, use an aluminum trailer and the weight would go down.

The Imp would be a great choice, if you can find one with a cabin that is suitable. Many Imps have 2 seat cabins with a flat bed deck behind the cabin, some have 5 seat cabins. I'm not sure how many people you want to transport but either might work for you depending on your needs. The Imp, like the Kristi, needs a trailer that has a deck OVER the trailer wheels but its weight allows it to be towed by a car or modest SUV.

Spryte is a great machine, not sure about the weight, you might not be able to tow one behind a car?
 
Thanks!

Snow Trac is certainly moving up the list; it'd fit in the garage, it'll fit on my car trailer (have a custom made car trailer with what I always thought was a too-wide deck....hmmmm). An Imp would require a new trailer. Actually, the Snow Trac MIGHT require a new trailer; it currently tows a <2000# racecar just fine, but it is single axle. Sounds like the Snow Trac is a bit heavier than the race car, although I'd be comfortable putting ~3k on that trailer.

I currently tow everything with a 1-ton van; I guess when I say "towed by a normal car," I mean what I already have - it does just fine with either the car or snowmobiles. I do worry that the added weight would make it MORE difficult in snowy conditions (2wd), but as it sits, with studded snows, I've only had to chain up once or twice (with the snowmobiles on their trailer - 1800# at most).

Whatever, cross that bridge when I get to it. I'm not opposed to buying a 1-ton 4wd truck, and generally speaking, as long as I can get to the trailhead, I'm OK. With chains, the van is pretty unstoppable, but the snowmobile trailer has a similar track to the van; the car trailer puts the wheels out to the side considerably. Maybe an airlocker? Dunno.

Thanks for the welcome/help!



Iain
 
here's pros and cons on the snow trac you can't power up a hill like a snowmachine they will climb a steep hill in the right conditions the snow trac will be able to steer in deep snow and when climbing a hill because of the variator system nock on wood but i believe that my snow trac is almoste impossople to tip over ran a bv206 on the same side hill as i have run my snow trac several times before and it was a white knuckle ride the imp is a built heavyer and has a weight penelty i can't speak of the preformance of one as i have no stck time in them as a final thaught you are restricted to snow but the snow master is the king of the hill in deep snow and on the hills hope this helps.
 
Stay small and light. The 1200 sprytes LMC DMC are getting in the heavier catagory and you need a good trailer and truck combo. Lighter cats are allot easier and safer to tow around. The IMP is a great choice as well as the snow tracs. If you climb steep hills then a Snow Master would be your best choice. Every single Kristi I have seen and I have seen more than almost everyone here needed to be completely rebuilt with the exception one one. It had been rebuilt a few years prior to me picking it up for a friend. If you have time, knowledge and the money to spend then a Kristi KT3 would also be a good choice. But I have seen allot of imps that were trail ready as well as Snow Tracs. I hope this helps.
 
Just so happens I have a Snow Trac for sale,& you are right side by sides do not do well in deep snow.I own a 700 Ranger with tracks.It sucks in deep fresh snow
 
Thanks! You people are awesome.

Peter - not ready to buy yet (June, most likely), but roughly how much are you asking?

It seems that prices on these things are all OVER the map, and I'm guessing that cheaper != better. There's probably a bottom end on price - I don't know where it is, but I suspect that finding one that is mechanically solid is pretty important, or even mechanically solid with one glaring (needs motor/tranny/rear end) flaw.

Need to look into Snow Masters. The ability to move in deep snow is important; the deeper the snow is, the more I care.

Thanks!


Iain
 
If you haven't already, check out some of my posts for pictures of our Snowcats up on the Pass. You'll see what works up here.
 
There is a Tucker for sale in Colorado and the price seems reasonable but others may not agree. It comes with a blade and some sort of groomer. It is a newer version(2000 series?) and looks like it has the bigger tracks but I'm no Tucker expert.
http://www.resortboneyard.com/list.php?category=9
 

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That Tucker looks lovely, but a bit on the large side, I think.

Some little birdie got me thinking about Kristis and suspension and sidehilling. THAT'S pretty interesting, too. A lot of times, finding a straight shot up a hill is challenging. hhmmmmmm.

About 20 years ago, I drove my first(and only) cat, and I _think_ it was an Imp. Northern Vermont, in the town of Lyndonville - there is a small community based ski hill, I got involved in a project to paint their lift towers.

We were given a small snowcat to move around the mountain. I was looking at Imps this morning, and I'm 90% sure that's what we had. It was fun, but at the time, I doubted it's ability to move around in deep snow. It was tiny, two passenger cab, small "pickup bed" on the back. Interesting. Maybe they do move around in deep snow, but I remember it being slow and clunky (but fun).

How realistic is this - buy a cat (Imp, Snow Trac/Master, Kristi). Go through cat; fix everything. Run it all winter with nothing but maintenance - greasing stuff, changing oil. "Run it all winter" means 3-6 days a month from December-March. 30-50 miles/day (based on what we do on snowmobiles).

???? Realistic, or do they break down frequently? If gone through, is it unreasonable to expect one of these older cats to basically survive a winter without failure?

I expect SOME issues, naturally, but if they're sorted, with a good going-through before the snow falls, can they be reliable for a season? I asked the same thing of my snowmobiles; the answer was (and has been) "yes." I'm pretty meticulous about maintenance.


Iain
 
Iain,

First of all, I don't want anybody to get the impression I'm trying to bash them, their equipment, or tank a possible sale...OK?

The reality is that we live in CO which is already at 5000' just on the front range. An air-cooled VW-powered Cat? Not at this altitude, especially if you want to go faster than 3-5mph up in the mountains. Add the weight of 3-4 more people and their gear and you'll soon be very dissapointed and/or stuck.

Anything with 'mattracks' or similar on it is a waste of time unless you're riding on hard-pack. You're a mountain sledder (as am I), so I think you know what's involved there.

I'm former S&R, and one of my cats served in that role for MANY years, with me at the wheel. It was replaced by a Spryte which we found to push more snow than it drove over, especially when loaded. The low position of the radiator was also an issue and always seemed to be partially choked off with snow. The Tuckers will go about anywhere due to their 4-track design and the fact they wagon-steer and not skid-steer. That makes a huge difference in the types of snow we get in the higher CO mountains, but they do take a lot of maintenance. Especially the steel-track one's....!

Whatever you decide, make sure you can readily get parts for it and it's maintenance friendly.


....maintenance friendy...:whistling:... can't believe I just used that term on a sno-cat forum!:yum:
 
mannix said:
How realistic is this - buy a cat (Imp, Snow Trac/Master, Kristi). Go through cat; fix everything. Run it all winter with nothing but maintenance - greasing stuff, changing oil. "Run it all winter" means 3-6 days a month from December-March. 30-50 miles/day (based on what we do on snowmobiles).

???? Realistic, or do they break down frequently? If gone through, is it unreasonable to expect one of these older cats to basically survive a winter without failure?

I expect SOME issues, naturally, but if they're sorted, with a good going-through before the snow falls, can they be reliable for a season? I asked the same thing of my snowmobiles; the answer was (and has been) "yes." I'm pretty meticulous about maintenance.


Iain
Click to expand...
Theres a Kristi KT3 in Colorado for sale now for $4500 . Do you have Mechanical experience ? Can you do basic repairs . I am restoring one right now and will have about $10-$12 thousand by the time it is BETTER than NEW . It would more than handle your requirements . Ski's on top in the rack and you can get 4 in comfortable or 5 a little tighter .
 
Mtn-Track said:
Iain,

First of all, I don't want anybody to get the impression I'm trying to bash them, their equipment, or tank a possible sale...OK?

The reality is that we live in CO which is already at 5000' just on the front range. An air-cooled VW-powered Cat? Not at this altitude, especially if you want to go faster than 3-5mph up in the mountains. Add the weight of 3-4 more people and their gear and you'll soon be very dissapointed and/or stuck.

Anything with 'mattracks' or similar on it is a waste of time unless you're riding on hard-pack. You're a mountain sledder (as am I), so I think you know what's involved there.

I'm former S&R, and one of my cats served in that role for MANY years, with me at the wheel. It was replaced by a Spryte which we found to push more snow than it drove over, especially when loaded. The low position of the radiator was also an issue and always seemed to be partially choked off with snow. The Tuckers will go about anywhere due to their 4-track design and the fact they wagon-steer and not skid-steer. That makes a huge difference in the types of snow we get in the higher CO mountains, but they do take a lot of maintenance. Especially the steel-track one's....!

Whatever you decide, make sure you can readily get parts for it and it's maintenance friendly.


....maintenance friendy...:whistling:... can't believe I just used that term on a sno-cat forum!:yum:
Click to expand...










I understand your missconception that a little VW engine in say a Snow Master could only go 3-5 mph at anything above 5,000 feet. But you are wrong. I live at 7,000 feet. I have a Snow Master with a 50hp motor. I have transported on several occassions 7 Adults plus all of there provisions through shoulder deep champagne powder with NO problems.That was to 11,000 feet! I was well over 6k and pushing 7K. Thats more than twice the weight of my cat. Up hill we were going at least 8 to10 mph. Normally I go 11 to 13mph unloaded. (the Snow Master is geared much lower than the Snow Tracs or Kristis. 14MPH with stock gears is max. Going down the mountain I had 11 people in and on my cat. No one wanted to wait the 3 hours for me to come back as a huge storm was coming in so they pilled onto my side decks and held onto my roof rack. I had 11 people plus all of there gear and stuff. On one of my trips going to the lodge a new 2000 XL Tucker got stuck in the deep powder. I pulled him out. I also had to keep pulling him as the powder was just to deep. Sure the Tucker passed me going up the compacted road but when I got to the top and turned off for the lodge there he was in all his $135,000 glory stuck and wallering around like a harpooned whale. I have since purchased a set of high speed gears since I dont groom and thats what the Snow Masters were made to do. I usually dont carry heavy loads either. But on occassion I was asked to do so and she performed beautfully. A good speed for any cat in all but flat straight terrain is about 15 mph. I should see 17 mph with my new gears and above if I go with a higher reving engine. The snow Master is not great on narrow trails. She is 8'6" wide. The Snow Master is strickly a winter rig. The Imps Snow Tracs and Kristis are pretty much all year round rigs. Not that I would run them in none winters conditions. The Snow Master has a 0.32 psi rating. Anytime you get down to 0.50 you have a good powder rig. To tow the smaller little rigs imps ,snow tracs and such are super easy to tow. They dont want to yank your truck off the road and usually track right behind you in the worst of conditions without giving you problems. My 7,000 DMC was a terror to tow in the worst winter conditions. That and my heavy trailer really made me appreciate my lighter cats and trailers! In fact I try NOT to tow the heavier rigs in bad conditions anymore. My Snow Master outperforms any of the new $150,000 to $400,000 rigs hands down. Now if you stick 10' plus wide tracks on them then they start to get to where my Snow Master is at 8'6". But you cant tow the 10' plus rigs at night. You have to stop at all DOT stations and are usually over 10K in trailer weight. That brings on a whole lot of BS there alone. No for your average Joe any of the VW powered or Wisconson engine rigs is an excellent choice. Plus parts are easy and cheap to get (vw that is) and are easy to work on (vw that is). On the down side. A light cat SUCKS at plowing. In fact NEVER put a plow on a light snowcat. If you need to plow then Thiokol 1200 (with OC12) is hard to beat. Tuckers also make a good plow platform as well. BUT if you dont have to TOW your rig then a TUCKER 1643 would be very nice! I do love the BIG older Tuckers!
 
mannix said:
That Tucker looks lovely, but a bit on the large side, I think.

Some little birdie got me thinking about Kristis and suspension and sidehilling. THAT'S pretty interesting, too. A lot of times, finding a straight shot up a hill is challenging. hhmmmmmm.

About 20 years ago, I drove my first(and only) cat, and I _think_ it was an Imp. Northern Vermont, in the town of Lyndonville - there is a small community based ski hill, I got involved in a project to paint their lift towers.

We were given a small snowcat to move around the mountain. I was looking at Imps this morning, and I'm 90% sure that's what we had. It was fun, but at the time, I doubted it's ability to move around in deep snow. It was tiny, two passenger cab, small "pickup bed" on the back. Interesting. Maybe they do move around in deep snow, but I remember it being slow and clunky (but fun).

How realistic is this - buy a cat (Imp, Snow Trac/Master, Kristi). Go through cat; fix everything. Run it all winter with nothing but maintenance - greasing stuff, changing oil. "Run it all winter" means 3-6 days a month from December-March. 30-50 miles/day (based on what we do on snowmobiles).

???? Realistic, or do they break down frequently? If gone through, is it unreasonable to expect one of these older cats to basically survive a winter without failure?

I expect SOME issues, naturally, but if they're sorted, with a good going-through before the snow falls, can they be reliable for a season? I asked the same thing of my snowmobiles; the answer was (and has been) "yes." I'm pretty meticulous about maintenance.


Iain
Click to expand...






The side hilling capability of the Kristi is Gimmiki at best! LYNDON who has more hours than all but the veteran groomers and has more hours in all makes and models of snow cats agrees with this statement. In fact he may have been the one that coined it. Dont make your decision based on that. BUT a Kristi KT3 is a good little cat of you dont have allot of gear or people to haul around.

(Boy this should get the KKK clowns all fired up!)
 
uh oh, looks like it is starting;).

I _really_ appreciate all the comments.

One question - how would the rest of a Snow Trac/Master deal with, say, a 110hp engine? I saw that someone had put a 1.6i watercooled (rabbit) motor in one. I'm very familiar with older VW watercooled motors, can put together a ~110hp engine for next to nothing (85 GTI motor with a mild cam), which is dimensionally identical to the 1.6 liter that the other person has in theirs.

Would that just cause other problems?

I guess a hotrodded 1800cc aircooled engine is an option, too, or a 2 liter busmotor, but....thoughts?



Iain
 
S.O.

I was refering to the OLD Tuckers, not the new ones. The new ones have a lot higher GP than the older, smaller ones, but you already know that...

Tell me you took pictures of towing that new Tucker out!:w00t2:

My experience in the VW-variety is from the Kristi and SnoTrac, with a steel-track Tucker, all in the same location above 9000'. The Tucker was by far the better cat at breaking trail with speed, agility, and power. The VW's were greatly lacking in power and always seemed to be getting hot (the engines, not the cabins). Also, the Tucker was the only one that would pull a large utility sled. Just my experience, not bashing...
 
mannix said:
uh oh, looks like it is starting;).

I _really_ appreciate all the comments.

One question - how would the rest of a Snow Trac/Master deal with, say, a 110hp engine? I saw that someone had put a 1.6i watercooled (rabbit) motor in one. I'm very familiar with older VW watercooled motors, can put together a ~110hp engine for next to nothing (85 GTI motor with a mild cam), which is dimensionally identical to the 1.6 liter that the other person has in theirs.

Would that just cause other problems?

I guess a hotrodded 1800cc aircooled engine is an option, too, or a 2 liter busmotor, but....thoughts?



Iain
Click to expand...
the only problem i see with the lc motor would be the weight penalty 110 horse is getting to the limit of the trans i think properly tuned and jetted the 1600 at about 60 horse will do you just fine one bored to over 1700 cc would be better i would also suggest staying with a stock carb for reliability or talk with member leadvillerpm about the efi system he can get out of mexaco other wise just bore and stroke the vw and cam it for 5 k or less because of the fact the faster it revs the shorter the life of the motor.
 
Just A quick thought on an Imps. If you are over 6 foot you may not fit in the drivers seat. Any cabs that style might not fit. I am 6'2" and tried to drive a Imp and simply no room for my right leg to hit the gas safely. I have a small cab snowmaster and its a little snug getting in but comfy in the drivers seat. Something to think about.
 
I'm telling you guys a Kristi KT3 is the way to go ! Not only can you tow a Snot Trac to safety , but if your move the seat bar back 4 " you will have room for a 300 pound 6'4" fat guy !!!! These things are simple to work on , AMERICAN MADE , and you will look good ! Look at my KT3 thread and a SnotTrac thread and tell me which is easier to work on ???? KT3 .... hands down !:smile:
 
BigAl said:
I'm telling you guys a Kristi KT3 is the way to go ! Not only can you tow a Snot Trac to safety , but if your move the seat bar back 4 " you will have room for a 300 pound 6'4" fat guy !!!! These things are simple to work on , AMERICAN MADE , and you will look good ! Look at my KT3 thread and a SnotTrac thread and tell me which is easier to work on ???? KT3 .... hands down !:smile:
Click to expand...
Gee Al i think if i were sitting in a krusty i might look like i was sitting in a orange bath tub when i'm sitting in the snow trac i look cool also my snow trac gets around under its own power not on a trailer.
 
Now Al you is starting to talk bad about us 6'3" 325# guys... I fit in the imp just fine including my fire shelter.
 
So, wait, let me get this straight.

I have to choose, Snow Trac or Kristi (or Tucker or or or....)

At this point, I'm not choosing a CAT, I'm choosing what kind of abuse I'll have to take from the other side?

;). Hilarious.

I must admit, I'm liking Snow Tracs/Masters the most so far; seems like the smallest overall package with largest human capacity.

Actually, no, I've read more about Tuckers, and I REALLY want one, but it is just not as realistic as a ST/M or Kristi.

Don - good points. I do have to wonder how much more a LC VW motor weighs vs the aircooled unit. Cast iron block (are old bugmotor cases cast iron or AL?), coolant, radiator (the radiator is LIGHT).

EFI is a must, particularly if I get a VW engined device; I have a fair bit of experience putting aftermarket fuel injection on them. I'm a big fan.

That said, the OEM enginerds do a great job of making stuff run/start when it is cold; the cars I've converted from carb to FI have always run great, but suffered in the cold start department (my current race car has started as cold as 20F, but it took some babying - just don't use it enough in the winter to justify the time tweaking the cold-start stuff).

Hmmm. Too much, in a sense, to think about.

The lightness of the Kristi (1200#?) is really, really appealing.




Iain
 
mannix said:
So, wait, let me get this straight.

I have to choose, Snow Trac or Kristi (or Tucker or or or....)


The lightness of the Kristi (1200#?) is really, really appealing.




Iain
Click to expand...
Who in the hell told you a Kristi weighed 1200 pounds ??? I bet it was a bunch of lying Snot Tracters .

Mannix I have never lied to you , unlike those Snot Track Bastards ... Buy a kristi KT3 :w00t2::yum:...
 
I read it somewhere on der-internet:). Seems like they might be closer to 2000#.

What's a Kristi weigh?

Going to Vail Pass tomorrow; I pity any of you that are out with your cats, I _will_ be the guy asking a bazillion questions;).



Iain
 
mannix said:
I read it somewhere on der-internet:). Seems like they might be closer to 2000#.

What's a Kristi weigh?

Going to Vail Pass tomorrow; I pity any of you that are out with your cats, I _will_ be the guy asking a bazillion questions;).



Iain
Click to expand...

By the time you get it loaded up I would figure 3000 pounds plus .
Still it has a lite footprint and is easier on the pocket book then a Snot Trac . Both our good units and will do the job for you .
 
If Iain was to buy a lighter cat, wouldnt he need some kind of plow to get through drifts to make it to the top of the mtn?


Would it do a good enough job just to get through?



Cletis
 
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