Nooby needs advice on Sno cat ...... 3 pics

[berg]

Yo... Just thought I'd say Howdy

My 2nd post... I have been lurking for a while and thought I'd ask some basic questions and maybe avoid looking for the wrong unit. I am new to the Sno Cat world...Currently I do not own a Sno Cat but would like to start looking for one. I live near Park City ,Utah and Sundance Ski resort In Utah.. There are some units around Thiokol's) that keep changing owners once the novelty wears off. I have no reason to own one other than I just want one for back county trips and cross country skiing outings. I do not own a cabin but have friends that do. I am not afraid of the upkeep part of it.

My criteria for a Cat...
I would like to have at least a 3/4 cab and be able to haul 6 persons. I would like diesel as well and stay under 5K lbs machine weight. The LMC 1500 seems to fit( although not diesel that I have seen) and wondered what the good and bad on the LMC and thikol Sprytes. What are the basics to look for? I do my own Mechanic work and own welding . plasma and lift equipment.
There is a a Tucker used for rescue operations that is parked a few blocks from my home. I have not talked with the owner yet. ( pic1).
I have found 2 Aktiv Snow tracs locally and for the past year I was thinking about trying to buy one. I really don't want a complete rebuild project as these might end up being. The other thing I noted is that allot of you guys call them Slow Traks... and some of the parts seemed pricey and hard to get. Probably not in my future. So...............
A Few basic Questions
1.What is the preferred drive train of the common machines out there?
2. Is a Spryte too small for 6 persons and gear for deep powder?
3. What is the desired brand/ model used Machine ( No Kristi's I assume)that you guys look for?

Pics:
First is the Tucker and the second is a bad pic but a 70's era Snow trak out near a barn.. currently not for sale . Another red one I found may be for sale .. I will post a pic later this week when I see it up close.
Last pic is my Snow removal system..76 Land Cruiser

Thanks .. all opinions appreciated...

berg

 

[Bobcat]

<snip>
( No Krisit's I assume)
<snip>

Oh, wanna start right off like that, do ya? Be warned, we Kristi owners are few in numbers, but we tend to be barrel chested, swaggering fools, looking for a fight wherever we can find one!


Ok, ok, now that I've got that out of the way, I'd recommend a Spryte for you. Easy to find parts, Petersen Equipment in Logan can help you with anything else you need, easy to maintain, roomy, etc.


A couple of sources for Sprytes and Imps...even a snot trac in Logan.

http://www.snotrans.com/lmc_thiokol.html

http://www.petersonequipment.com/used.html

 

[BigAl]

Yo... Just thought I'd say Howdy

.
I have found 2 Aktiv Snow tracs locally and for the past year I was thinking about trying to buy one. I really don't want a complete rebuild project as these might end up being. The other thing I noted is that allot of you guys call them Slow Traks... and some of the parts seemed pricey and hard to get. Probably not in my future. So...............

I may be as guilty as anyone in giving the Snow Trac owners a hard time ,but I actually have never heard of any Snow Trac owners complaining that their machines were slow . All parts for snow Cats seem expensive to me . If you have one in Utah and can get it for a decent price , you should check it out . VW engines are easy to work on and parts ,though expensive can be obtained .

OH ! I almost forgot to say welcome !!!

 

[tomelroy]

First of what is your price range? I am in utah as well and know of a few units for sale.

The oc-12 is the stronger rear end if you are looking for a spryte, the c-4 is the other rear end on the spryte models. Most of the local sprytes are in the 12 to 25k price range. I personally would go with a full cab spryte in your situation. The extended cab sprytes that seat 5 dont have enought leg room for the rear passangers.

However, Petersons has a yellow spryte that has a custom cab on it that is very comfortable, more leg room for the rear passengers, but 6 passangers might be a bit much and it is a model A spryte with the c-4 rear end (not as strong as the oc-12). It also has new rubber tracks with the new j style grouser. ( may need new tires)

The sprytes have different grouser options and track widths. You dont want to get stuck in the soft Utah powder.

I have seen some sweet cats recently sell in the area that would work great for you. You may have seen the Yellow LMC 1800 for 36K that thing would be nice. Full cab, diesel.

The LMC 1500 and 1800, Thiokal/DMC Sprytes, and the super imps are very popular in this area.

 

[Snowcat Operations]

The LMCs are ok but pricey. I ran one for years and the only real complaints were the weak grousers and the weight. Not a great powder machine for sure. If you want a good powder machine you should look for a Thiokol 1202B (6 passenger). Also Diesels tend to be heavy and you will be hard pressed to find a good diesel powder machine. 99% of the cats you will find for sale will be gas. The other option is a Aktiv Snow Master (One of the best deep powder machines). Snow Tracs are great but not for real deep powder. As far as speed I too was guilty of always wanting more. BUT these are snowcats not Indy cars. 15 MPH is a good speed. Expect speeds in the range of 10 to 15 mph. My Snow Master runs at about 12 to 13 mph max. Unless of course you have the optional gears then expect 15 to 16 mph. My 1202B Thiokol runs at about 10 to 12 mph. My Super Imp will go about 20 mph but I run her between 12 to 15 mph. Running any track rig at speed really wears on them and is not advisable or safe in my opinion. I hope this helps.

 

[Snowcat Operations]

In general if you go with the 1200 series Sprytes do not get one with the OC4 rear diff.. Only go with the MUCH MUCH STRONGER OC12. The Ford inline 6 are bullet proof engines. The NP435s are also bullet proof. You couldnt go wrong with a 1200 series Thiokol. Now as far as Tuckers they a great! BUT the roller bearings can really run you into the poor house fast. The newer ones are better but still have allot of regular maintenance. I would say at least twice as much as a 2 track machine.

 

[paul webster]

post photos of the snow tracks so we can try to go get them ?? hahahaa

 

[Melensdad]

Snow Trac = Slow Tracs . . . well as mentioned by Mike (Snowcat Operations) all snowcats are pretty darn slow. Especially slow in deep powder. Faster on smooth crusted snow. Mine will go about 20mph in ideal conditions. But as slow as that seems, there isn't much on the snow that can outrun a snowcat, and most snowcats travel in the 12 to 15 mile per hour range no matter what brand you are talking about.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a Kristi, despite what we hollow chested milk toast eating Snow Trac owners tell you. Well not much. Actually in your case a Kristi is probalby not going to fit your needs, if you want to haul 6 + gear then I simply don't know of any Kristi large enough to do that. A KT4 would work, but there are literally only a handful of those known to exist, none are known to be for sale. A KT3 will probably seat 6 in a pinch, but not with gear. The Kristi owners get kicked around a lot, and they typically deserve it, but their snowcats are good enough (for them).

Your budget is going to be strained, no matter what you look at, unless it is a fixer-upper. And even then, some of those will be over your budget.

 

[Mainer]

So, I'm gonna say it just cuz Snowcat Ops isn't that forward... he has an AWESOME 1202B Spryte for sale... 5-people...6 would be tight but I once took a NYC taxi cab with six in it, excluding the driver...so anything is possible.

Anyway, see his thread of the 1202B he worked on...last I knew it was for sale at probably the best price you'll find for an OC-12 based multi-pass unit that has been detailed by a professional (well... hmmm...). But seriously... it's a steal and you simply will not find a unit of this quality for the price anywhere... well, until he reads this and jacks the price up double. LOL

You see it with a few cosmetic things to do...finish interior carpet, blah, blah...nothing...but new exhaust, went through the engine, rewelded and extended the bed...anyway...see his threads on it...he has threads and subthreads so find them all. Don't let his personality scare you away. He can't help it sometimes.

I would buy it but I'm loyal to a different lineage of the Thiokol line-up (which will do 35 MPH), which no one should pursue because that makes it harder for me to own more than a handful....they're ugly, yuk...brauny icky...ex-military...high maintenance...ewww! (no comments from the peanut gallery...or rather...the many peanuts in the gallery).

I'll post a photo here of SnowOps 1202B to entice you/others to go look at his thread and BUY IT! It's a frigging steal at whatever it is...$9 or 10K...something like that...it's a $13-15K cat. Hours and miles are both low. I'm pushing it cuz I keep coming close to buying it and don't want to stray from my committed relationship of the Trackmaster.

PS...he did this rig up to keep as his own so he did it right...the only reason he's selling it is cuz he's got a pimped out limo that Boggie did up for him that's sweet enough to give you cavities. All relative I guess. Now I'll go sit in my exhaust-filled, run-down, raunchy Trackmaster and oogle some photos of real cats.

 

[berg]

Thanks for the good info guys....


I probably spoke a little too soon as far as not wanting a project. I have found in my time that finding... resourcing and fixing projects is the major part of my quest. Seems like when I'm done, having a finished project is not the highlight. As they say... the best part is the journey.

I found this locally.........Is this a 1202?.......any thoughts

http://saltlakecity.craigslist.org/rvs/956068963.html

 

[Lyndon]

I highly recomend Bill & Mary Guthrie, in weiser Idaho. They don't sell "junk", and there prices tend to be the lowest of all the dealers. Snowtrans is their website which someone else posted ahead of this posting. The business name is Sales Unlimited.208-549-2501

 

[tomelroy]

that spryte on craiglist has the oc12, has been cleaned up ...the only thing you might be concerned about is the belting. That gets pricey! Peterson want ~5k if they do it, ~2.5k for the belting alone.

 

[Mainer]

There are a variety of people out there but snotrans and boggie are really the two that are best to deal with... well, Boggie's personality is so difficult but you have to look past that when getting good deals and great work! OK, ok, just kidding. Relax, call off the hounds Boggie.

But, if you want very nicely customized machines of whatever generation cat-type/brand/budget then Boggie does a fantastic job... he does tons of big-time niche engineering work and also private... so he has a lot of know-how and tools that are required for large complex jobs so you can get some great engineering bennies at a residential/consumer price.

An example is snowcat ops latest pimp-daddy machine that boggie did... i think the brass dancing pole was photoshop'd out of these pics.

http://www.mn-outdoors.com/equipment_USED3.html

He also has tons of great sources for reasonably priced machines then it's T&M as to where you want to take it....

 

[Bobcat]

I'm pretty sure Mikes 1202B is on it's way to Boggies, so that one is probably off the market.

 

[Mainer]

Ah... oh well.... y'all had a chance with his signature that said it was for sale months and months.... but then again.... this whole thing is about cat-sourcing so Boggie can take the cat and customize it to the buyer's requirements...

 

[srexecmark]

if you are doing a lot of back country snow-catting in powder, you cannot beat a Tucker. They are better on side hill stiff and uneven terrain. If you want a diesel, you will not find anything under 5,000lbs. My 78 Tucker has a gas industrial Chrysler 360 and weighs just about 7,000 lbs. But, it will go anywhere!

 

[leopard_colony]

Diesels suffer from 2 major problems in cold weather. First is fuel, you have to get #1 fuel for winter or use additives. At low temperature #2 will have large crystals of paraffin, causing it to "jell" and be useless. Second is diesels are hard to start in cold weather, even with glow plugs. This especially true with a tired engine that lacks proper compression. In fact military diesels often are set up with fuel fired engine heater. We civilians get by with electric block heaters. Where there is no electricity you will have to leave the engine running all the time. Diesel tractors without glow plugs often have a starting fluid system permanently attached. Here in Iowa temperatures of -10 F are common, so I have lots experience with cold diesels! I love diesels also, but stick with gas engines for winter use.

 

[Melensdad]

Diesels suffer from 2 major problems in cold weather. First is fuel, you have to get #1 fuel for winter or use additives. At low temperature #2 will have large crystals of paraffin, causing it to "jell" and be useless. Second is diesels are hard to start in cold weather, even with glow plugs. This especially true with a tired engine that lacks proper compression. . .

DITTO

Don't get me wrong, I love diesels, but I also used to own a truck fleet and in the winter we had to thin out the fuel with kerosene and/or use an anti-gel. Our trucks were parked and plugged in with engine block heaters, and even then, on the really cold nights it was not uncommon to find a big tarp thrown over the cab of the truck with a "torpedo heater" blowing in hot air to thaw the fuel lines and engine enough to get the truck started.

 

[mtntopper]

A little more than a week ago I tried to start my F350 super duty diesel after sitting where there is no power available for several days. The temp had been down in the -15 to -28F range for several days but was only about -10F when it failed to start. I did not keep cranking after it died the second time and failed to start again as it appeared to just run out of fuel that day. I let it sit until the temps were finally up to 10F and it was still a b!tch to get started and keep running. I have the local winter diesel fuel blend with the proper fuel additive added to the fuel system. New filters were installed in the past month.

On a snow cat I think gas is the better way to go for a personal snow cat. Now if it is a bigger cat and used for grooming or other heavy work the diesel will be a better option as long as you can keep the engine heated and running. I have run several diesel snow cats and owned one. If you can keep them plugged in and have a decent in line fuel heater they work ok. Mine without being plugged in, was able to start down to about -10F fairly consistently and below that forget it unless you preheated the engine.

 

[berg]

Thanks for the heads up on diesel... I have a diesel Mecedes that I use a block heater with. Without it I would be toast....I can see without it on a sitting cat.. big problem in low temps.

I am still thinking the Snow trak might be the better option for me. I am not in a hurry and the (red one)one located near me might be for sale. It has sat for 10 years that I know of. Track is going to need attention and motor needs
rebuilding IIRC.
I like the size and the fact it could be hauled on a car hauler. 4k-5k lbs?

So what Motor is a good upgrade in the Snow Trak and can the trans and the variator take a few more horses ?

I am going to approach the owner on a trade, as he is not looking for $$$ right now... He used to own a land Cruiser so I am going to see if he is interested in a White 76 Land Cruiser( No rust) I own and see if we can reach a deal. Again It depends on condition. I have been reading everything I can on ST's so shoot me a buyer beware list on a ST if you have one.
I'll keep ya posted. I hope the ST is not a rust bucket...

thanks

Berg

 

[Snowcat Operations]

Subaru is the engine to use. The stock VW trans can take up to 100 hp.. I have a thread on subaru engines ect.. Kennedy Engineering is the place to get the adaptor. I have a Subaru engine rebuild company in Colorado the build the engines for aircraft ect. I cant remember the name off hand but will look them up. They even have the wire harness already made for this application. Except its in a snowcat and not an airplan But who cares. Its one less hassel to deal with.e.

 

[berg]

Price on those adapters is reasonable...My sons used to drive an 87 Soob 4 dr Manual trans to high school... that car would never break down.
I had no idea ST guys were using those. Got any links to conversions/ build ups using a Subaru?
BTW.. is the ST transaxle the beefier bus transaxle or the car?

adapters
http://www.kennedyeng.com/vw_por.htm

 

[Lyndon]

Never Saw a Subaru engine in a ST4, but I have in a Radcliff. In Snow Trac's I've seen: 36 HP, 40 HP, and 40 HP VW Industrials, a "Pancake Motor" or "Suitcase Engine"(55 HP Fastback and Squareback engine with dual carbs), 1600 VW 126 Industrial, 53 HP engine, Porsche 1600 Industrial, and VW Rabbit Gasoline Watercooled 4 cylinder conversion. >
In response to yor query about the Transaxel/Variator: ST4's all came with tranaxels bearing VW Bus part numbers(Type 2,starts with 211followed by nine digits), from more that one manufacture. Due to the additional gearing to the tracks, that is the Chain Drive that either goes from 11, 12, or 14 tooth sprocket on the variator to 36 or 48 tooth main drive sprockets it is unlikely that one can over Horsepower the transaxel. Things like the axels that carry the front sprockets fail before the tranaxel.

 

[Snowcat Operations]

Either way. VW or Subaru you will have a great engine. Thjere is allot more work to install aSubaru for sure. The VW is simply to install and you can just about get anything you want in one. A 75 HP moto would be really sweet in a Snow Trac and a Snow Master. I have a set of the very rare 15 tooth smaller sprockets I will install in my Snow Master. Not sure what my top speed will be but I suspect 15 MPH will be a very reasonable cruising speed. With a top end speed of 20 mph with a vw engine. A Subaru should see me at about 25 to 30 top end speed.

 

[mtmogs]

Berg,

I upgraded the original 1600cc VW type 1 engine last year to a 1915cc type 1 (http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showthread.php?t=13653) The performance improvement is striking. You can take off from a dead start in 3rd gear (as shown in this video [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wCOhp0CsOU"]YouTube - Snow-Trac at night[/ame]). There is power to spare on the top end so I considered a performance tranny with a higher 4th gear, but I'm satisfied for now. I clocked the top speed with GPS at about 22 mph, and practically speaking that feels close to the safe limit of these machines. I recall Lyndon mentioning that you shouldn't neglect checking the brakes. Good advice.

You can read in the attached thread about the CHT issue I had. I rectified the problem this year by removing the old style oil cooler from within the fan housing and adding an external cooler with thermostat and fan. I post a write up on it one of these days. Anyway, I've dropped the CHT of cylinder #3 by 30-40º I'd estimate, well into the safe zone.

Good Luck!

 

[Snowcat Operations]

OH How cool is THAT! Youve been busy Mtnmogs!

 

[Lyndon]

I recognize this rig! For those of you that have never seen a Military ST4, the give-away feature is the "hooks" sticking out of the front fenders. These were for picking up the machine by helicopter! The custom cab was built in Boise Idaho. this was originally 24volt, and had a canvas cab. Wing windows were "Fixed" in place. In the place of the original generator was a Dummy generator to support the fan and there was an additional 24Volt alternator belted off the engine where the Hydrolic Pump for the groomer models went.