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No escape...
- Thread starter OkeeDon
- Start date
That's a funny clip Don. I personally think the ones of Gerald Ford falling are even funnier, but I haven't seen any of those in years. I suppose the funniest are the ones of Clinton telling what we now know are clear cut lies to congress. Someone told me that he had Fleetwood Mac play at one of their conventions but asked them to not play "Little Lies". 
That was my reference to an incompetent elections official. The elections head of Palm Beach County was the "genius" who came up with the most confusing system ever devised. I sincerely doubt that more than a few people, even on this forum, would feel entirely comfortable about whether they had voted correctly. The sad irony is that this gal, whose name excapes me except that I'm pretty sure it had a French origin, was a Democrat.
That's why the exit polls were calling the election for Gore; the people were telling the exit pollsters who they thought they had voted for. If the ballots had been easier to understand, there would have been no need to try to determine the intent of voters in other counties.
The real irony is that every state in every election probably has as much, if not more, voter error and miscounted votes. The difference is that until the 2000 election in Florida, no total state count had ever been close enough for the miscounts to matter. In other words, every state has it's quota of idiots and morons, but the rest of you have gotten off easy because it never mattered. I get more than a little pissed when you start laughing at Florida; it's like the pot calling the kettle black. Those of you who are without sin...etc.
Or, to put it another way, in a kinder and more gentle fashion, if you don't know what the hell you're talking about, shut up.
That's why the exit polls were calling the election for Gore; the people were telling the exit pollsters who they thought they had voted for. If the ballots had been easier to understand, there would have been no need to try to determine the intent of voters in other counties.
The real irony is that every state in every election probably has as much, if not more, voter error and miscounted votes. The difference is that until the 2000 election in Florida, no total state count had ever been close enough for the miscounts to matter. In other words, every state has it's quota of idiots and morons, but the rest of you have gotten off easy because it never mattered. I get more than a little pissed when you start laughing at Florida; it's like the pot calling the kettle black. Those of you who are without sin...etc.
Or, to put it another way, in a kinder and more gentle fashion, if you don't know what the hell you're talking about, shut up.
OkeeDon said:
I certainly agree with that. What state was it that had a "voting issue" with the new touch screen voting machines that had the name and picture of the candidate? You know, the voting machines where you only had to touch the picture or name of who you wanted. This state had people complain that they were confused.
I'm fairly certain that the ACLU even joined them in protest! Sorry, but I'm 100% convinced that if you don't vote for their endorsed candidate, the ACLU and NAACP along with Jesse Jackass will protest. Those organizations and "leader" are a complete joke and the media only covers them because they are so frickin' stupid that the public gets a kick out of how absurd they can be.
OK, heres how it works in our state. I have worked the poles, if someone is confused, concerned, or can not read they can ask for help. ONE DEMOCRAT and ONE REPUBLICAN MUST be helping each person individually. They show them how to vote for EACH candidate, not each party or office. It is not rocket science. I believe that now we even have multi lingual persons available.
Personally I hate the party system we have, let the best man win........ON HIS OWN DAMN MONEY, not my part of the 75 million they get after the primaries.
Personally I hate the party system we have, let the best man win........ON HIS OWN DAMN MONEY, not my part of the 75 million they get after the primaries.
Danny, in the upper end of the state we do it the same way! One Repub & one Dem will help out whoever needs help. We didn't have bi-lingual assistance in our district, but we did have 2 personal helpers for whoever needed it. The lovely Mrs_B & I did it for about 8 years. Heck we might have even helped some of OkeeDon's relatives vote for the 'right' party.
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Okeedon, you know I always value your comments but regarding the 2000 election and the Supremes, I think your comments miss the big picture. If you will recall, Mr. Gore only wanted recounts in counties that favored him. The Bush campaign said a recount is fine, but let's do ALL the counties AND absentee ballots, a large part of which are military and pro Bush. Gore didn't like that idea. The Supremes merely said unless you recount ALL counties, it's unconstitutional. If you're not gonna recount all counties, stop.
Regarding the Florida ballots, I vote in Ohio where they still use the punch cards (like Florida). It's not all that difficult to vote for the right candidate, nor is it overly burdensome to check your card after voting for hanging or dimpled chads (like I've always done since I started voting 20+ years ago). Yes, the right to vote is a quintessential element of our democracy. It is so important of a right that a little personal responsibility is required to make sure it is done properly. I don't buy the argument that they make voting too hard. If you're not smart enough (or have the minimal attention span required) to vote, you probably shouldn't be voting in the first place. It's just too important of a constitutional exercise.
Regarding the Florida ballots, I vote in Ohio where they still use the punch cards (like Florida). It's not all that difficult to vote for the right candidate, nor is it overly burdensome to check your card after voting for hanging or dimpled chads (like I've always done since I started voting 20+ years ago). Yes, the right to vote is a quintessential element of our democracy. It is so important of a right that a little personal responsibility is required to make sure it is done properly. I don't buy the argument that they make voting too hard. If you're not smart enough (or have the minimal attention span required) to vote, you probably shouldn't be voting in the first place. It's just too important of a constitutional exercise.
Sorry, but you're simply wrong. The Dems called for a state-wide recount. It was supported. The recount took place in every county and all ballots. In most counties, like the one where I live, the recount came up lmost exactly the same as the first count, because there was no confusion, there was plenty of help, and the elections supervisor was competent in the first place.
The issue with "hanging chads" was primarily in Dade and Broward counties, where a significant number of ballots were tossed out because of improper punching. This was primarily a problem with the punches, which did not always punch cleanly. The recount in these cases was to determine whether or not a particluar position was punched, or not. It was an enormously time-consuming procedure, and was the source of all the famous pictures of elections judges holding up cards and looking at them from different angles to determine if a valid attempt had been made to punch a particular spot.
In Palm Beach County, while there was also an issue with improper punching ("hanging chads"), the issue was whether the ballots were too confusing. The problem is that they used a method called a "butterfly" ballot, in which the candidates are on either side of the fold between pages, and the punch positions are in the center near the crease. It was very difficult to tell whether one was punching for the right or left side of the pages; many people voted for two presidential candidates, thinking they were voting for one president and one of something else. They didn't ask for help because they didn't realize anything was wrong; they thought they were doing it correctly (the ballots actually did not look confusing; they just were too mixed up to be apparent that one's vote was wrong). These ballots were tossed out because they had two votes for the same position. It was ridiculous; most of them were a vote for Gore and a vote for Pat Buchanan, who nobody normally votes for. These ballots were not counted, period. There were thousands of these ballots thrown out; far more than enough to swing the election to Gore if they could have been accepted.
Part of what was requested was a new election in Palm Beach County; after the fact, it was obvious even to the dumbest person that the numbers weren't valid. Of course, the Republicans weren't dumb; they knew that if a legitimate ballot were to be used in a new election in that county, they would lose, Big Time.
But, by far the biggest problem in the entire state was that the Republican administration and the Republican state elections supervisor somehow managed to purge thousands of legal voters from the rolls because they had similar names to convicted felons. When these innocent folks showed up at the polls, they were denied their vote, and were denied an opportunity to deposit a provisional ballot that could have been counted later, once it was determined they really had been a registered voter. Amazingly, most of those who were purged were in counties with the largest cities, where most of the traditional Democratic voters reside. There were 50.000 such purges; and even a complete moron has to understand that if they had been permitted to vote, there would have been far more than enough votes to overcome the slim, 597 vote eventual margin. Of course, the Republicans weren't morons; they knew this very well. That's why they fought so hard.
What you may have heard about differences in counties is that the basis for the US Supreme Courts decision to perform another recount was that the various counties had different methods for recording votes, therefore no uniform method of recounting was possible. Of course, this is true in many other states. It is in the best conservative tradition, an extension of State's Rights. In State's Rights, the idea is that each State knows what is best for itself rather than the Federal government. In Florida, that idea is extended to each county, that the county can best determine for itself the way in which the vote is to be recorded, rather than the State making the decision. If one is a true conservervative, one would totally support that method. However, the sad fact is that most so-called "conservatives" in this country are only conservative when it's convenient; thus the conservative Supreme Court majority voted against local rights.
The election was flatly stolen by the Republicans; they were the ones who purged the legitimate voters from the rolls; they were the ones who used any wild and frivolous argument they could invent to circumvent the will of Florida voters.
Remember, there were recounts. In each case, the recounts showed Gore ahead. The exit polls showed Gore ahead. Gore won the popular vote in the nation as a whole. The Republicans really didn't start to scream about stopping the recounts until they got a count that showed Bush ahead; then they pulled ALL the stops and got the counts stopped at that point. The final margin of "victory" was: 527 votes.
Bush has NEVER been a legitimate president. And, while I was already swayed that way by Trent Lott, Bob Dole and their lies about the Clinton health plan, and by the ludicrous Ken Starr investigation and the ridiculous impeachment, I was absolutely turned against the Republicans for all time by that outright theft of an election. They can never redeem themselves in my eyes.
Attachment: The infamous Palm Beach County Butterfly Ballot.
The issue with "hanging chads" was primarily in Dade and Broward counties, where a significant number of ballots were tossed out because of improper punching. This was primarily a problem with the punches, which did not always punch cleanly. The recount in these cases was to determine whether or not a particluar position was punched, or not. It was an enormously time-consuming procedure, and was the source of all the famous pictures of elections judges holding up cards and looking at them from different angles to determine if a valid attempt had been made to punch a particular spot.
In Palm Beach County, while there was also an issue with improper punching ("hanging chads"), the issue was whether the ballots were too confusing. The problem is that they used a method called a "butterfly" ballot, in which the candidates are on either side of the fold between pages, and the punch positions are in the center near the crease. It was very difficult to tell whether one was punching for the right or left side of the pages; many people voted for two presidential candidates, thinking they were voting for one president and one of something else. They didn't ask for help because they didn't realize anything was wrong; they thought they were doing it correctly (the ballots actually did not look confusing; they just were too mixed up to be apparent that one's vote was wrong). These ballots were tossed out because they had two votes for the same position. It was ridiculous; most of them were a vote for Gore and a vote for Pat Buchanan, who nobody normally votes for. These ballots were not counted, period. There were thousands of these ballots thrown out; far more than enough to swing the election to Gore if they could have been accepted.
Part of what was requested was a new election in Palm Beach County; after the fact, it was obvious even to the dumbest person that the numbers weren't valid. Of course, the Republicans weren't dumb; they knew that if a legitimate ballot were to be used in a new election in that county, they would lose, Big Time.
But, by far the biggest problem in the entire state was that the Republican administration and the Republican state elections supervisor somehow managed to purge thousands of legal voters from the rolls because they had similar names to convicted felons. When these innocent folks showed up at the polls, they were denied their vote, and were denied an opportunity to deposit a provisional ballot that could have been counted later, once it was determined they really had been a registered voter. Amazingly, most of those who were purged were in counties with the largest cities, where most of the traditional Democratic voters reside. There were 50.000 such purges; and even a complete moron has to understand that if they had been permitted to vote, there would have been far more than enough votes to overcome the slim, 597 vote eventual margin. Of course, the Republicans weren't morons; they knew this very well. That's why they fought so hard.
What you may have heard about differences in counties is that the basis for the US Supreme Courts decision to perform another recount was that the various counties had different methods for recording votes, therefore no uniform method of recounting was possible. Of course, this is true in many other states. It is in the best conservative tradition, an extension of State's Rights. In State's Rights, the idea is that each State knows what is best for itself rather than the Federal government. In Florida, that idea is extended to each county, that the county can best determine for itself the way in which the vote is to be recorded, rather than the State making the decision. If one is a true conservervative, one would totally support that method. However, the sad fact is that most so-called "conservatives" in this country are only conservative when it's convenient; thus the conservative Supreme Court majority voted against local rights.
The election was flatly stolen by the Republicans; they were the ones who purged the legitimate voters from the rolls; they were the ones who used any wild and frivolous argument they could invent to circumvent the will of Florida voters.
Remember, there were recounts. In each case, the recounts showed Gore ahead. The exit polls showed Gore ahead. Gore won the popular vote in the nation as a whole. The Republicans really didn't start to scream about stopping the recounts until they got a count that showed Bush ahead; then they pulled ALL the stops and got the counts stopped at that point. The final margin of "victory" was: 527 votes.
Bush has NEVER been a legitimate president. And, while I was already swayed that way by Trent Lott, Bob Dole and their lies about the Clinton health plan, and by the ludicrous Ken Starr investigation and the ridiculous impeachment, I was absolutely turned against the Republicans for all time by that outright theft of an election. They can never redeem themselves in my eyes.
Attachment: The infamous Palm Beach County Butterfly Ballot.
Attachments
OkeeDon said:
First, did you not see the results of the last election?! Unless you've been out of the country and unable to receive any worldwide news, how can you say that Bush has "never" been a legitimate president? Second, I have to disagree 100% with your take on Clinton. I'll say that after the democrats made such complete buffoons out of themselves and totally disregarded the law in keeping Clinton in office, I can never trust the democrat party under almost any circumstance. Without a doubt, they put party politics well above the well being of our country or our laws. I think Ted Kennedy can be the official democrat idiot. He makes his state the laughing stock of the country for electing him. He should have served hard time for killing Mary Jo Kopeckne. For any person without his family money, getting drunk and killing someone in your car is considered manslaughter at best. Clinton made the office of the president a joke. Communist News Network (CNN) can't even spin things for the democrats enough. They are even embarrassed by how much the democrats try to exploit the less educated part of our population!
thcri
Gone But Not Forgotten
Dargo said:What?!Every legitimite recount done certified Bush as the winner. It's over. Gore lost. Period. End of story. Sorry, but facts are facts.
Yes every re-count to re-count the election came in favor of Bush. These recounts went on for a long time and Bush was the winner. Only Jesse Jackson could count it different.
But you guys, don't pick on Al Gore, remember it was him who invented the internet, thus we have forums like this one so we can all argue???
Can you all imagine post 911 if Gore was elected President!!!
Basically, Bush filed suit to make the state recount ALL the ballots. Gore only wanted 4 counties counted. He countersued. The courts ruled back and forth several times. In any case, Bush won the state by a bit over 500 votes.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia on the internet:
Following the election, recounts conducted by various U.S. news media organizations indicated that Bush would have won the most probable recount methods (including the one favored by Gore at the time of the Supreme Court decision) but that Gore might have won if other methods were adopted.
The Gore campaign lodged a complaint over the state's election results, requesting that disputed ballots in four counties be counted by hand.
On December 8, the Florida Supreme Court, by a 4 to 3 vote, ordered a manual recount of disputed ballots in all Florida counties in which such a recount was not already complete. This count was in progess on December 9, when the U.S. Supreme Court by a 5 to 4 vote granted Bush's emergency plea for a stay of the Florida Supreme Court recount ruling, stopping the incomplete recount.
Early in the afternoon of December 12, the Republican-dominated Florida House of Representatives voted nearly on party lines to certify the state's electors for Bush. Later that afternoon, the Florida Supreme Court upheld lower court rulings authorizing recounts in several south Florida counties.
Around 10 pm EST on December 12, the U.S. Supreme Court handed down its ruling in favor of Bush by a 5-4 vote, effectively ending the legal review of the vote count with Bush in the lead. Seven of the nine justices cited differing vote-counting standards from county to county and the lack of a single judicial officer to oversee the recount, both of which, they ruled, violated the equal protection clause of the United States Constitution. The crucial 5 to 4 decision held that insufficient time remained to implement a unified standard and therefore all recounts must stop.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia on the internet:
Following the election, recounts conducted by various U.S. news media organizations indicated that Bush would have won the most probable recount methods (including the one favored by Gore at the time of the Supreme Court decision) but that Gore might have won if other methods were adopted.
The Gore campaign lodged a complaint over the state's election results, requesting that disputed ballots in four counties be counted by hand.
On December 8, the Florida Supreme Court, by a 4 to 3 vote, ordered a manual recount of disputed ballots in all Florida counties in which such a recount was not already complete. This count was in progess on December 9, when the U.S. Supreme Court by a 5 to 4 vote granted Bush's emergency plea for a stay of the Florida Supreme Court recount ruling, stopping the incomplete recount.
Early in the afternoon of December 12, the Republican-dominated Florida House of Representatives voted nearly on party lines to certify the state's electors for Bush. Later that afternoon, the Florida Supreme Court upheld lower court rulings authorizing recounts in several south Florida counties.
Around 10 pm EST on December 12, the U.S. Supreme Court handed down its ruling in favor of Bush by a 5-4 vote, effectively ending the legal review of the vote count with Bush in the lead. Seven of the nine justices cited differing vote-counting standards from county to county and the lack of a single judicial officer to oversee the recount, both of which, they ruled, violated the equal protection clause of the United States Constitution. The crucial 5 to 4 decision held that insufficient time remained to implement a unified standard and therefore all recounts must stop.
JimR
Charter Member
Gore only wanted certain counties recounted. He was against a total recount Don. I don't know where you were when the elcetion took place. But I was here watching it all on tv. Ma. is just like Florida. People here are like horses wearing blinders. A Democrat could kill somebody (Ted Kennedy) and still get elected time and time again. But if a Republican screws up he's out for good. Anytime a Democrat does something wrong it makes the back page of the paper. Everytime a Republican makes a mistake it makes front page. This is the way it is here. It's a real shame as America is going to hell real quick because of it. By the way, I'm an independent voter and vote for the person, not the party.
OkeeDon said:
Don, don't be "gone". I've never agreed on politics (well, usually not; we obviously agree on certain issues) with you, so you would think that I'd lost my marbles if I agreed with you anyway.
Even though I don't agree, I do enjoy discussing political things with you. I honestly would never call you any names or think of you as a bad person. I do think it is a bad thing when people within the same party always agree. If they do, then somebody is only going along with what they are told to do; not with what they believe. That was the biggest beef I intended to describe earlier. Either way, you make most everyone here look at things in a way they may not have considered.
Brent I'll agree with you on the fact that Don makes me think before I post. Sometimes I post anyway. But I do have a tendancy to check things before I post or to more carefully word my posts. Fact of the matter is I am set in my ways & beliefs, not much can change that. I suspect based the the many conversations I've had with Don that he is very much the same. Doesn't mean we can't be friends even if we see things differently.
What does amaze me is how differently we each see the same thing.
What does amaze me is how differently we each see the same thing.
tcri said:Can you all imagine post 911 if Gore was elected President!!!
Viking said:The US would have become a Islamic Nation, similar to what is happening in France, and we would be praying on little carpets facing Mecca a few times a day.
Funny Viking!!!
I seriously think the US would have approx. 2000 more citizens and would not be near as far in debt. We would not be in Iraq, but would probably still be in Afganistan (which I see as a good thing!)
....and we can only imagine the improvements he would have implemented for the internet we all know and love.
