New woodstoves

[bczoom]

Put in 2 new wood stoves yesterday. Inserts to be exact. What a PITA but it is nice and toasty in here today... More later. Too hard to type with band-aids on all my fingers...

 

[muleman]

If you put them in masonry fireplaces I hope you ran a pipe up the chimney. The colder masonry chimney will cool the exhaust and creosote will form quick.

 

[tsaw]

If you put them in masonry fireplaces I hope you ran a pipe up the chimney. The colder masonry chimney will cool the exhaust and creosote will form quick.

Good point Muleman. But... depending on the insert installed, won't the efficient "burn' taking place take care of that?

 

[fogtender]

Been using wood for a number of years to cut down the oil heat bill, but started using coal in the wood stove a few years ago, it has an updraft to allow the coal to burn. Downside is that there is no "Shakers" to dump the coal ash, so I had to shovel out sections and put new coal into them to burn. In as much as it was a pain to work, it was by far better heat than wood. One ton of coal is about three and a half cords of spruce firewood. To buy that now it is about 200 to 300 dollars a cord to buy. Coal on the other hand is about $65 a ton, and it takes about five tons to heat a 3,800 sf house for the winter, in winters that hit -50 and colder at times.

So for about 400 dollars, I can heat the entire house for the winter, verses three to four thousand dollars using wood or oil.

So I bought a new coal stove this summer and installed it. For about $2,200.00 I have a stove that burns coal, and can use wood should I need it. So I have had it on line now for about two months and have no idea why I didn't get one years ago.

The ash I am pulling out now is cold, not full of hot embers which is wasting a good source of heat that is thrown out. The coal stove will burn up to twenty hours if I stoke it up and put it on low (book says 60 hours), but normally stoke it every eight to ten hours depending on how warm/cold it is. Wood would burn out around four to six hours before needed to be re-stoked.

I can get about 2 tons per pickup load at the coal mine down the highway, no way I will use wood again if I can help it. Now the monitor heaters rarely fire up unless I am gone for a long period of time or get to lazy to bring the coal inside.

Not a clue to why people got away from coal at the prices of other heat sources.....

 

[fogtender]

Good point Muleman. But... depending on the insert installed, won't the efficient "burn' taking place take care of that?

I put an insert in a fireplace years ago, and it really made a mess, like muleman said, the concrete was cold and all the creosote stuck to the sides making an extreme fire hazard. I quit using that stove when I crawled up on the roof and looked down the chimney with a flashlight. Sold the house and the new owner pulled out the insert and re-piped it.

 

[bczoom]

If you put them in masonry fireplaces I hope you ran a pipe up the chimney. The colder masonry chimney will cool the exhaust and creosote will form quick.

The fireplaces are the manufactured type with triple-wall pipe. I inserted a 6" liner (Olympia Forever Flex) inside that with new stainless steel offset on the bottom and capping on top.

One ton of coal is about three and a half cords of spruce firewood. To buy that now it is about 200 to 300 dollars a cord to buy. Coal on the other hand is about $65 a ton, and it takes about five tons to heat a 3,800 sf house for the winter, in winters that hit -50 and colder at times.

Not a clue to why people got away from coal at the prices of other heat sources.....

I have several acres of woods (all hardwoods) so I can't see going to coal since I have an endless supply of wood. The only woods that will see these stoves is oak, cherry, maple and ash.

I put 4 relatively small at approx. 6" diameter logs in each last night about 10:00. When I went to get them going this morning, there was still parts of the logs as well as a nice bed of still-red coals. The wood stove that I replaced would have burned those same 8 logs and would have hardly anything left come morning. It's 25-degrees out and the stoves kept the house warm enough that the furnace never kicked on, heating about 3400 sq/ft with lots of windows, cathedral ceilings....

 

[Cowboy]

The fireplaces are the manufactured type with triple-wall pipe. I inserted a 6" liner (Olympia Forever Flex) inside that with new stainless steel offset on the bottom and capping on top.


I have several acres of woods (all hardwoods) so I can't see going to coal since I have an endless supply of wood. The only woods that will see these stoves is oak, cherry, maple and ash.

I put 4 relatively small at approx. 6" diameter logs in each last night about 10:00. When I went to get them going this morning, there was still parts of the logs as well as a nice bed of still-red coals. The wood stove that I replaced would have burned those same 8 logs and would have hardly anything left come morning. It's 25-degrees out and the stoves kept the house warm enough that the furnace never kicked on, heating about 3400 sq/ft with lots of windows, cathedral ceilings....

BC could you tell more about the liner you purchased & how much trouble it was to install as well as price ?

I have a similiar setep with triple wall pipe & I,m thinking for added safety about adding a liner to it if its not to difficult to install . I,m guessing it would be about a 20 foot length to go up & out the second story chimney . It is a wood shell with fake stone on the outside & the outside of the triple wall where I can access it gets a bit hotter then I care for , I beleive there may be some minor heat seepage in the joints allthough there is never any smoke . Thanks for any input .

 

[bczoom]

Prices provided are not retail prices as they don't sell to the public. It's the prices for a retailer whom you would purchase from and normally have them install.

The liner I bought is Olympia ForeverFlex. 6" - approx $1.20/foot.
http://www.olympiachimney.com/products/cat/FF/31605LINER

With matched screened caps - I don't recall the price but thinking they were about $60.
http://www.olympiachimney.com/products/cat/FF/FFCM-CAPS/CSLF

Below the top caps, a storm collar - about $15.
http://www.olympiachimney.com/products/cat/AF/AFCM-TP/SC_

To attach to the chase cover, I got 16" diameter collars (I can't find a pic, but they look like a big saucer or pan which covers the existing triple wall pipe to keep the elements out. I cut out the 6" diameter needed for the liner. No idea what these cost...

In my application, the existing chimney was set back farther then the outlet on the insert so I had to install an offset adapter. About $75.
http://www.olympiachimney.com/products/cat/SP/SPPR/OSBOX

So, starting from the bottom and going up:
Woodstove
Offset box (to attach liner pipe to woodstove)
The 6" liner pipe (going out the roof)
16" collar with 6" cutout. This slides over the new 6" pipe and covers the existing triple-wall.
A storm collar that sits on that 16" plate (with silicone caulk to keep the rain out)
The cap.

Insulation around the liner pipe is needed if you have a masonary chimney but not required if you're installing inside triple-wall pipe.

Installation is relatively easy. The hardest part (for me) was getting the offset adapter connected to the top of the new stove as it was a tight fit and there was no place to work. I was trying to slide the woodstove in and to connect the pipe, you have to reach in from the inside of the stove and align/connect the adapter. Once that was done, it was a piece of cake. Not counting that part, the rest of the pipe was installed, capped and completed in about an hour.

One of the existing pipes had a couple bends in it. I was able to snake the pipe in (from the roof, going down) and by twisting/pushing down, the insert pipe made it's bends and came out the bottom. I did have to do a little tugging from the bottom as well.

Here's a pic of the top caps. Although both stoves are burning, I can see the one on the right needs to be stoked up a bit. When burning properly, there's no visible emissions, like the one on the left. BTW, that beat-up cedar is going to be replaced...

 

[Cowboy]

Great info/links & the pic was a bonus , thanks much BC very helpfull . BTW I prefer the beatup looking cedar look verses any newer looking type of siding , but our place is old & I want it to look that way .

 

[bczoom]

Our house is cedar and although darkened, it's in good shape. Up there at the chimney, the wood is cracking and needs replaced.

Meant to add this before. Here's the inserts we installed. Mrs. Zoom is having me build granite hearths and framing/flashing.

http://www.regency-fire.com/Products/Wood/Wood-Inserts/I2400.aspx


Specifications
Maximum BTU 75,000
Log Size 18"
Burn Time up to 8 hrs
Optimum Efficiency 77.00%
Firebox Capacity 2.3 cu. ft.
Emissions (gms/hr) 3.44
View Area 183 sq. in.
Room Size 2000 sq. ft

 

[Cowboy]

Thanks for the added pic , That explains the need for the offset . In my case Its a straight shot up & I allready have the new cap & all up top as well as the collars .

Where I,m getting confused is how it would tie into my exsisting insert at the top of where it would slide into the triple wall pipe , seems like there would have to be some kind of flange inside the insert that would seal off between the liner & pipe if that makes sense . Or am I thinking about it wrong ?

 

[bczoom]

You're thinking about it right...

What's your current pipe size going up?

You're looking for a flange at the bottom of the pipe (top of the stove) to connect the stove to the new liner. Do you have an insert or is it a free-standing stove (how hard is it to get to where the existing pipe meets the stove)?

What's the diameter of the outlet on your stove? What's the diameter of your innermost pipe (of the existing triple-wall)?

Bill, Steve... Is he going to be looking for something like a Flush Stove Adapter DSP Double Wall 6in Stove Pipe

 

[Cowboy]

You're thinking about it right...

What's your current pipe size going up?

You're looking for a flange at the bottom of the pipe (top of the stove) to connect the stove to the new liner. Do you have an insert or is it a free-standing stove (how hard is it to get to where the existing pipe meets the stove)?

What's the diameter of the outlet on your stove? What's the diameter of your innermost pipe (of the existing triple-wall)?

Bill, Steve... Is he going to be looking for something like a Flush Stove Adapter DSP Double Wall 6in Stove Pipe

I,ll have to do some measuring for sure But I beleive the The inside of the triple wall is 8" & the outside is 12 " . The firebox where the wood goes isn,t that big but the outside of the cabinet is about 4 1/2 foot tall , & has fresh air ducts that come in at the bottom & outlet ventilation pipes that goes out the top , If that makes sense .

But its enclosed & only access to it would be tearing out the wall from the backside to get to where the triple wall connects to the firebox , So I guess it wouldn,t be considered an insert . Its hard to explain so I took some pics . I obviously need to give it a good cleaning to . Sorry for highjacking your thread with all the questions & pics .

 

[bczoom]

I'm going to have to defer to thcri and muleman on how best to adapt a liner to the stove as they're a couple of our resident experts... You're probably going to need a new cap as well (since the one you have is set for 8" and a new liner will be smaller diameter). I'm also guessing that you may have to remove and/or replace that damper.

I guess if I was in your shoes, I'd start by asking what's an acceptable temperature and such on the exterior of your pipe as that seems to be your concern but the temp may be OK after all.

 

[fogtender]

The fireplaces are the manufactured type with triple-wall pipe. I inserted a 6" liner (Olympia Forever Flex) inside that with new stainless steel offset on the bottom and capping on top.


I have several acres of woods (all hardwoods) so I can't see going to coal since I have an endless supply of wood. The only woods that will see these stoves is oak, cherry, maple and ash.

I put 4 relatively small at approx. 6" diameter logs in each last night about 10:00. When I went to get them going this morning, there was still parts of the logs as well as a nice bed of still-red coals. The wood stove that I replaced would have burned those same 8 logs and would have hardly anything left come morning. It's 25-degrees out and the stoves kept the house warm enough that the furnace never kicked on, heating about 3400 sq/ft with lots of windows, cathedral ceilings....

Having the wood on the property is a hard agument against going to coal. My issue is that to cut and stack about 13+- Cords of wood, would take a great deal of time and effort. Where I can get the required amount of coal in an Saturday afternoon. Can haul about two tons in the pickup at a time so it works out much easier for me. Still have a few cords of birch and spuce cut and stacked in case of an emergency out of the weather though.

 

[Cowboy]

I'm going to have to defer to thcri and muleman on how best to adapt a liner to the stove as they're a couple of our resident experts... You're probably going to need a new cap as well (since the one you have is set for 8" and a new liner will be smaller diameter). I'm also guessing that you may have to remove and/or replace that damper.

I guess if I was in your shoes, I'd start by asking what's an acceptable temperature and such on the exterior of your pipe as that seems to be your concern but the temp may be OK after all.

Thanks BC I appreciate the info & pics at least I have an idea of how it should be done now . I beleive this setup is probablly 25 to 30 years or so old & it certainlly wasn,t done by an expert as far as I can tell , thats one reason I was concerned about it . But even with a really hot fire in it I can lay my hand on the outer pipe upstairs & not get burnt but it just seems hotter then I thought the triple wall pipe should be on the outside but I have nothing to compare it to .

 

[bczoom]

Having the wood on the property is a hard agument against going to coal. My issue is that to cut and stack about 13+- Cords of wood, would take a great deal of time and effort. Where I can get the required amount of coal in an Saturday afternoon. Can haul about two tons in the pickup at a time so it works out much easier for me. Still have a few cords of birch and spuce cut and stacked in case of an emergency out of the weather though.

Are you talking 13 face cord or full cord? If I had to do 13 full cord a year, I'd move... I can cut/split/stack about 6 face cord (2 full cord) in a weekend. It would be more if I didn't have to cut it so small so it'll fit in the insert(s) but I need to cut at approx. 16" lengths and small enough to grab with a single gloved hand. I burn about 5 full cord/year but that may go up since I'll be tempted to run 2 stoves at a time.

But even with a really hot fire in it I can lay my hand on the outer pipe upstairs & not get burnt but it just seems hotter then I thought the triple wall pipe should be on the outside but I have nothing to compare it to .

Again, check with thcri, muleman and our other resident experts but check your cap up on top of the chimney. As I was instructed, your capping should be such that air can flow between all the walls of the piping to the outside (and the innermost is where you have your rain cap). On the plate/pan looking things I was mentioning earlier, I have them raised/vented so air can escape/move through those triple walls. If yours are covered such that they're not getting any ventilation, it may cause some raised temperatures.

 

[muleman]

Cowboy, Most triple wall pipe will over time suffer a little degradation about 2-3 inches from the top of each section. The insulation installed in the sections settles and shrinks a small amount. If you can lay your hand on it and there are no visible leaks it is probably still ok to use. If it had been seriously overheated from a chimney fire then it is more likely to need replaced. The flex liners are great and do offer a seamless pipe for better draft and safety. The toughest part is getting the flex attached to whatever it is venting. If you have 8 inch now I would not drop below 7 for the type of fireplace you have. If your house is very tightly insulated you may have draft troubles if you downsize it. Does your current triplewall have standoff plates keeping it centered in the cavity it runs in?

 

[fogtender]

Are you talking 13 face cord or full cord? If I had to do 13 full cord a year, I'd move... I can cut/split/stack about 6 face cord (2 full cord) in a weekend. It would be more if I didn't have to cut it so small so it'll fit in the insert(s) but I need to cut at approx. 16" lengths and small enough to grab with a single gloved hand. I burn about 5 full cord/year but that may go up since I'll be tempted to run 2 stoves at a time.

Don't know what a "Face Cord" is, but a Cord is about 4'x4'x8' of stacked split wood about 18" long (three rows). We don't have the oak and maple here which are a lot harder wood and do burn longer, but mostly birch is somewhat a hardwood and spruce (like pine) which is a bit lighter. The amount I burn is becaue of the extreme cold we get in the winter time (-50F +-). Window are triple pane glass and the house walls are in the ten to twelve inch thick range. The house is well insulated, just the cold is also intense. If this house was in milder temps, would cost almost nothing to heat/cool using just oil. When I first bought the house, we used 500 gallons a month to heat it at about .86 cents a gallon. Now after rebuilding the complete place, I would now use about 140+ gallons a month at $3.35+ a gallon to heat 3,800 sf of house with three levels.

So using four or five tons of coal for the winter at $65.00 a ton verses oil or buying cut firewood at $200 to $300 a cord (if I didn't do it myself) saves thousands every year.

Can get a entire winter's worth of coal in two or three trips to the coal mine on a Saturday (or two). Much easier all around!

 

[Av8r3400]

A face cord is 4' high x 8' long, only one row of 16-18" pieces.
(One of the three rows that make a "full" cord.)

The coal idea sounds very intriguing. What are you burning the coal in?

 

[fogtender]

A face cord is 4' high x 8' long, only one row of 16-18" pieces.
(One of the three rows that make a "full" cord.)

The coal idea sounds very intriguing. What are you burning the coal in?

I had an "Arrow" wood stove for years, and since it had an updraft grate under the wood, I started to burn coal in it a few years ago, and it worked OK, but had to dig out the bed with a shovel, would start on both sides in the morning, then add coal, in the afternoon would dig out the center and add coal, then in the evening I would dig it all out but a small pile to relight it and fill the firebox with coal for the night.

Downside is that I created a lot of "Dust" with the constant shoveling, so this fall I bought a "Harmon TLC 2000" coal stove, which has shaker grates which eliminated the dust issue. I pour the coal in on top instead of shoveling it in like the old stove. But this has a front door as well if I do want to use wood for any reason. Ash comes out the bottom in a big tray.

Here is their website on the stove:
http://www.harmanstoves.com/products/details.asp?cat=stoves&prd=coal-stoves&f=TLC2000STV

This is the stove with a stack robber above it, I built the tiling area a few years ago when I did some remodeling so the stove has a dedicated corner!

 

[Cowboy]

Cowboy, Most triple wall pipe will over time suffer a little degradation about 2-3 inches from the top of each section. The insulation installed in the sections settles and shrinks a small amount. If you can lay your hand on it and there are no visible leaks it is probably still ok to use. If it had been seriously overheated from a chimney fire then it is more likely to need replaced. The flex liners are great and do offer a seamless pipe for better draft and safety. The toughest part is getting the flex attached to whatever it is venting. If you have 8 inch now I would not drop below 7 for the type of fireplace you have. If your house is very tightly insulated you may have draft troubles if you downsize it. Does your current triplewall have standoff plates keeping it centered in the cavity it runs in?

Thanks Bill , I,m not sure what standoff plates are . but it does have a 2x2 foot metal square that is around the pipe where it goes through the upper floor & the same thing at about the roof level .

I got a better look from an access door up stairs & the outside diameter is closer to 20 inches rather then 12 inch & they stack on each other & connected to each other very well so I,m sure its all fine even without an insert .

I had noticed a few years ago some rust streaks on the outer walls that was caused from a water leak at the top of the stack & allowed water to run down the outside of the pipe in heavy rains . Thats when I built the metal cap that covers the entire chimney top & redid the seal & put a new cap on it so it wouldn,t leak .

After rereading BC,s post about running the triple wall pipe high enough & letting all of the layers breath out the top , I,m wondering if My metal cap was a good idea or not ? But I cant get it through my head how else I could have done it without allowing rain to get into the layers of the triple wall pipe & leak down inside the house . Any thoughts on that ?

BTW Nice looking coal stove Foggy , sure makes sense up in your area where winter temps are so extreme