I have some test reports where the US military tested a series of vehicles for their cross-country abilities. One of them was called the Swamp Fox and was done about 1960 in Panama. They took just about every standard and prototype vehicle in their inventory and drove straight through the jungle making their own trail as they went. Starting out with about 70 vehicles, only about a dozen survived the trip, with only one being a wheeled vehicle, a Dodge Power Wagon with large Terra-Tires. The control vehicle used as a standard was a WWII Weasel. The other vehicles to survive included a Thiokol Trackmaster, a couple of Nodwells, an M113 APC, and I don't remember off-hand the rest. If there is some interest, I could dig up the reports and pics and post a bit more.
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Military Testing of Snow-Cats....
- Thread starter Manistee
- Start date
Kristi Kt-4
Member
I am interested to see the results.... My Kt-4 was delivered to the Detroit Arsenal in 1962. I am sure that it was involved in some testing since I know that there was a Remote Area Vehicle Evaluation (RAVE) on Galloway Lake outside of Detroit in November of 1962 with an open cab Kt-4. I have wondered many times where the other machine ended up or if it is even still together.
as a mvpa member that would peak my intrest
Don - I wrote an article that was published in Army Motors several years ago about the Swamp Fox I test. It was primarily centered on the Wheeled vehicles, particularly the Dodge Power Wagon that survived the test.
Kristi - They did a lot of testing with a lot of vehicles all over the world, but I only have copies of a few reports. In with the reports was some sales brochures and promotional items from a companies trying to sell to the government, including Tucker.
I will dig the reports out and share some of the information since there is some interest.
Kristi - They did a lot of testing with a lot of vehicles all over the world, but I only have copies of a few reports. In with the reports was some sales brochures and promotional items from a companies trying to sell to the government, including Tucker.
I will dig the reports out and share some of the information since there is some interest.
the m37 was a pretty good platform,one of the very popular conversions for the m37 up here for remote access is to use dc-3 tires ,nd an extra set of wheels with snap rings removed and bud nuts to hold the 2 halves together,in order to put oversized tires on the m37 platform.if additional traction is required than a set of chains is added. the preferred engine is a small diesel or the flathead as the goal is not to spin tires and tear up the vegetation or churn the mud up. the only limitation of the m37 is the lack of leg room for larger guys like me but that seems to be the standard for mv's
Yes, I'd like to see more too.
I found some stuff just searching:
http://asc.army.mil/docs/pubs/alt/archives/1962/Sep_1962.PDF
Specs on the Dodge:
http://s4.e-monsite.com/2011/08/16/93523038dodge-w-500-power-wagon-with-terra-tires-pdf.pdf
Here's a picture of one, but it doesn't quite look like the same truck the army file showed on pg. 10. Different bed and tires, I think.
I found some stuff just searching:
http://asc.army.mil/docs/pubs/alt/archives/1962/Sep_1962.PDF
Specs on the Dodge:
http://s4.e-monsite.com/2011/08/16/93523038dodge-w-500-power-wagon-with-terra-tires-pdf.pdf
Here's a picture of one, but it doesn't quite look like the same truck the army file showed on pg. 10. Different bed and tires, I think.
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Don - The M37 was included in the tests with several different tire set-ups, including aircraft tires. None could compare with the Terra tires as shown in the above photo.
Undy - Some very nice finds! I have the original test reports for both Swamp Fox I & II along with a file full of 8"x10" photos from S.F. II. The above photo is in my collection and is one that I shared online several times over the years. The reason it looks different than the other truck is because they are quite different. The Goodyear link shows an earlier body style Dodge, commonly called a 'Pilot House', while the S.F. II photo is of an early '60s 'Sweptline' series. Additionally, the first is a W500 series 2-ton Power Wagon and the second is a W300 1-ton series truck. Even if both trucks were of the same body style they would have different fenders, grills and running boards, though the hood and cab would be the same.
Undy - Some very nice finds! I have the original test reports for both Swamp Fox I & II along with a file full of 8"x10" photos from S.F. II. The above photo is in my collection and is one that I shared online several times over the years. The reason it looks different than the other truck is because they are quite different. The Goodyear link shows an earlier body style Dodge, commonly called a 'Pilot House', while the S.F. II photo is of an early '60s 'Sweptline' series. Additionally, the first is a W500 series 2-ton Power Wagon and the second is a W300 1-ton series truck. Even if both trucks were of the same body style they would have different fenders, grills and running boards, though the hood and cab would be the same.
Good call, I think. There was a strange look in one of those pictures.
I've never before heard of a twist frame. Very cool.
Just found it: Willock Swivel Frame in a Dodge: http://bringatrailer.com/2011/11/09/willock-swivel-frame-1958-dodge-power-wagon/
Here's video of one: http://bangshift.com/bangshiftxl/wa...gon-willock-swivel-frame-road-will-mess-mind/
I've never before heard of a twist frame. Very cool.
Just found it: Willock Swivel Frame in a Dodge: http://bringatrailer.com/2011/11/09/willock-swivel-frame-1958-dodge-power-wagon/
Here's video of one: http://bangshift.com/bangshiftxl/wa...gon-willock-swivel-frame-road-will-mess-mind/
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Here's a page with a detail of the swivel joint:http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general-4x4-discussion/41853-why-not-swivel-frame.html
Here's an ad:
Here's an ad:
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There is no mention of a swivel frame being used in the tests that I remember. They are very interesting but I do not believe one was included in these tests. I did dig out a couple reports and some pictures this afternoon, will try to look further into them a post some more soon.
SF I was a month long trip straight through the jungles of Panama while SF II took place in one place with specific courses created and specific tests performed. The variety and number of vehicles tested was pretty incredible, from scooters and early Rokons to M60 tanks. Several of the standard military vehicles of the time were tested with various modifications to run special tires. For example, the M151 1/4 ton truck was tested with standard tires, oversized NDT tires, aircraft tires and Terra tires.
SF I was a month long trip straight through the jungles of Panama while SF II took place in one place with specific courses created and specific tests performed. The variety and number of vehicles tested was pretty incredible, from scooters and early Rokons to M60 tanks. Several of the standard military vehicles of the time were tested with various modifications to run special tires. For example, the M151 1/4 ton truck was tested with standard tires, oversized NDT tires, aircraft tires and Terra tires.
I stand corrected, just did a quick review of the SF I report and here is what I found.
Swamp Fox I Vehicles
Equipment Evaluated:
Carrier, Cargo, Amphibious, M116 (Husky)
Carrier, Nodwell RN 110A
Carrier, Tracked, 1/2 Ton (Dinah)
Terrain Dynamometer Vehicle (Terrapin)
Transporter, Liquid, Rolling Wheel Type, 1,000 Gallon, M1 (RLT)
Tires; Highway, Military Desert, Rib Sand and Terra Tire
Tracks, Jungle, Three-Link Connectors, Dual Wheel (Jungletrac)
Support Equipment:
Carrier, Cargo, Amphibious, M29C (Weasel)
Carrier, Personnel, Full-Tracked, Armored, M113
Truck, Cargo, 1/2 Ton, 4x4, IHC-80 (Scout) w/ 9.00x13 Rib Sand Tires
Truck, Cargo, 3/4 Ton, 4x4, M37 w/ 11.00x16 Rib Sand Tires
Truck, Cargo, 1 1/2 Ton, 4x4, WM300 (Dodge Power Wagon) w/ 46x18-16R (rear) and 46x24-16R (front) Terra Tires
Truck, Cargo, 2 1/2 Ton, 6x6, M35 w/ 12.50x20 Military Desert Tires
Truck, Cargo, 2 1/2 Ton, 6x6, M35 w/ 46x18-20R Terra Tires (front), Dual 9.00x20 Military Mud & Snow w/ Jungletrac (rear)
Truck, Utility, 1/4 Ton, 4x4, M38A1 (Willy's Jeep) w/ 8.20x15 Highway Tires
Truck, Utility, 1/2 Ton, 4x4, CJ5 (Willy's Jeep) w/ 36x20-14R Terra Tires
Vehicles Which Completed The 41 Day, 118 Mile Test Course:
M116 (Husky)
Nodwell RN 110A
M113 APC
M29C (Weasel)
WM300 (Dodge Power Wagon)
Swamp Fox I Vehicles
Equipment Evaluated:
Carrier, Cargo, Amphibious, M116 (Husky)
Carrier, Nodwell RN 110A
Carrier, Tracked, 1/2 Ton (Dinah)
Terrain Dynamometer Vehicle (Terrapin)
Transporter, Liquid, Rolling Wheel Type, 1,000 Gallon, M1 (RLT)
Tires; Highway, Military Desert, Rib Sand and Terra Tire
Tracks, Jungle, Three-Link Connectors, Dual Wheel (Jungletrac)
Support Equipment:
Carrier, Cargo, Amphibious, M29C (Weasel)
Carrier, Personnel, Full-Tracked, Armored, M113
Truck, Cargo, 1/2 Ton, 4x4, IHC-80 (Scout) w/ 9.00x13 Rib Sand Tires
Truck, Cargo, 3/4 Ton, 4x4, M37 w/ 11.00x16 Rib Sand Tires
Truck, Cargo, 1 1/2 Ton, 4x4, WM300 (Dodge Power Wagon) w/ 46x18-16R (rear) and 46x24-16R (front) Terra Tires
Truck, Cargo, 2 1/2 Ton, 6x6, M35 w/ 12.50x20 Military Desert Tires
Truck, Cargo, 2 1/2 Ton, 6x6, M35 w/ 46x18-20R Terra Tires (front), Dual 9.00x20 Military Mud & Snow w/ Jungletrac (rear)
Truck, Utility, 1/4 Ton, 4x4, M38A1 (Willy's Jeep) w/ 8.20x15 Highway Tires
Truck, Utility, 1/2 Ton, 4x4, CJ5 (Willy's Jeep) w/ 36x20-14R Terra Tires
Vehicles Which Completed The 41 Day, 118 Mile Test Course:
M116 (Husky)
Nodwell RN 110A
M113 APC
M29C (Weasel)
WM300 (Dodge Power Wagon)
Somebody on the Pinzgauer forum found video! https://archive.org/details/gov.dod.dimoc.26065
Definitely was not a swivel frame Dodge. Cool shots of one of the prototype 6-wheel Jeeps.
Might have to rename this thread "Mud-Cats".
Definitely was not a swivel frame Dodge. Cool shots of one of the prototype 6-wheel Jeeps.
Might have to rename this thread "Mud-Cats".
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did you all see that a Thiokol 201
Undy - That looks like a great video find! I need to figure out how to save it. I have an original test report from Swamp Fox II complete with black and white photos glued to the pages and hand written notes in the margins. I also have a thick file of 8x10 black and white images, of which the above W300 is one I shared online years ago.
Don - As could be seen in the video, there were two Thiokols involved in SF II, a Trackmaster and a Spryte, both in open configuration. One of the recommendations of the test board was to include enclosed cabs on the vehicles because of brush hitting the drivers and occupants, along with snakes, spiders, and other critters which were sometimes quite unpleasant.
Don - As could be seen in the video, there were two Thiokols involved in SF II, a Trackmaster and a Spryte, both in open configuration. One of the recommendations of the test board was to include enclosed cabs on the vehicles because of brush hitting the drivers and occupants, along with snakes, spiders, and other critters which were sometimes quite unpleasant.
Another interesting little tracked vehicle used in SF II. I had never heard of the Durakats before and don't know how well they would do on snow, but they did not test well in the mud in Panama. The test report shows it did not have enough clearance below the hull or between the tracks and the tracks tended to load up with mud instead of shedding it.
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tracked vehicles don't scale down very well take the cushman trackster. it was a very cool idea with some great capability's ,for a machine that would fit in the back of a pickup. the down side was the length was so short they became prone to endoing when descending or ascending hill sides the other problem they had was also the low belly getting high centered on hummocks or stumps
Here is a complete list of Swamp Fox II Vehicles
1) Tote Goat Scooter, Model 400 & 600
2) Trailsster Scooter, Model 723
3) "Scat" Motorcycle
4) Trailbreaker, N-1000 Motorcycle 2x2
5) M-274, 1/2 Ton Carrier, 4x4 (Modified w/ 24x12-10R, Terra Tires)
6) M-151, 1/4 Ton Truck, Utility, 4x4
7) M-151, 1/4 Ton Truck, Utility, 4x4 (Modified w/ 36x20-14R, Terra Tires)
8) XM-408, 3/4 Ton Truck, Utility, 6x6
9) M-37, 3/4 Ton Truck, Cargo, 4x4 (Modified w/ 14.00x18 Widebase NDCC Tires)
10) FC-170, 3/4 Ton Truck, Cargo, 4x4
11) Unimog, 1 1/2 Ton Truck, Cargo, 4x4
12) WM-300, 1 Ton Truck, Cargo, 4x4 (Modified w/ 46x(18F & 24R)-16R Tires)
13) W-300, 1 Ton Truck, Cargo, 4x4 (Modified w/ 46x(18F & 24R)-16R Tires)
14) M-34, 2 1/2 Ton Truck, Cargo, 6x6 (Modified w/ 14.75x20 NDMD Tires)
15) M-35, 2 1/2 Ton Truck, Cargo, 6x6
16) XM-424E2, 3 1/2 Ton Truck, Cargo, 6x6
17) M-41, 5 Ton Truck, Cargo, 6x6
18) XM-453E3, 5 Ton Truck, Cargo, 8x8
19) XM-520, 5 Ton Truck, Cargo, 4x4, Goer
20) XM-409E8, Truck, Cargo, 8x8
21) XM-520E1, 8 Ton Truck, Cargo, 4x4, Goer
22) XM-438E3, Truck, Tanker, 5000 Gal., 4x4, Goer
23) Dura-Kat, 1/2 Ton Carrier, Tracked
24) Thiokol 201, 3/4 Ton Carrier, Personnel, Tracked
25) Thiokol 105, 1 Ton Carrier, Cargo, Tracked
26) M-116, 1 1/2 Ton Carrier, Cargo, Tracked
27) M-114, Armored Reconnaissance, Personnel, Tracked
28) XM-548, 5-Ton Carrier, Cargo, Tracked
29) M-113, Personnel Carrier, Armored, Tracked
30) Nodwell RN-110 D1, 5 1/2 Ton Carrier, Cargo, Tracked
31) Nodwell RN-200, 12 Ton Carrier, Cargo, Tracked
32) M-60, Tank, Main Battle, 105 mm Gun, Tracked
33) LGP D-7 Cat
1) Tote Goat Scooter, Model 400 & 600
2) Trailsster Scooter, Model 723
3) "Scat" Motorcycle
4) Trailbreaker, N-1000 Motorcycle 2x2
5) M-274, 1/2 Ton Carrier, 4x4 (Modified w/ 24x12-10R, Terra Tires)
6) M-151, 1/4 Ton Truck, Utility, 4x4
7) M-151, 1/4 Ton Truck, Utility, 4x4 (Modified w/ 36x20-14R, Terra Tires)
8) XM-408, 3/4 Ton Truck, Utility, 6x6
9) M-37, 3/4 Ton Truck, Cargo, 4x4 (Modified w/ 14.00x18 Widebase NDCC Tires)
10) FC-170, 3/4 Ton Truck, Cargo, 4x4
11) Unimog, 1 1/2 Ton Truck, Cargo, 4x4
12) WM-300, 1 Ton Truck, Cargo, 4x4 (Modified w/ 46x(18F & 24R)-16R Tires)
13) W-300, 1 Ton Truck, Cargo, 4x4 (Modified w/ 46x(18F & 24R)-16R Tires)
14) M-34, 2 1/2 Ton Truck, Cargo, 6x6 (Modified w/ 14.75x20 NDMD Tires)
15) M-35, 2 1/2 Ton Truck, Cargo, 6x6
16) XM-424E2, 3 1/2 Ton Truck, Cargo, 6x6
17) M-41, 5 Ton Truck, Cargo, 6x6
18) XM-453E3, 5 Ton Truck, Cargo, 8x8
19) XM-520, 5 Ton Truck, Cargo, 4x4, Goer
20) XM-409E8, Truck, Cargo, 8x8
21) XM-520E1, 8 Ton Truck, Cargo, 4x4, Goer
22) XM-438E3, Truck, Tanker, 5000 Gal., 4x4, Goer
23) Dura-Kat, 1/2 Ton Carrier, Tracked
24) Thiokol 201, 3/4 Ton Carrier, Personnel, Tracked
25) Thiokol 105, 1 Ton Carrier, Cargo, Tracked
26) M-116, 1 1/2 Ton Carrier, Cargo, Tracked
27) M-114, Armored Reconnaissance, Personnel, Tracked
28) XM-548, 5-Ton Carrier, Cargo, Tracked
29) M-113, Personnel Carrier, Armored, Tracked
30) Nodwell RN-110 D1, 5 1/2 Ton Carrier, Cargo, Tracked
31) Nodwell RN-200, 12 Ton Carrier, Cargo, Tracked
32) M-60, Tank, Main Battle, 105 mm Gun, Tracked
33) LGP D-7 Cat
And now for something unrelated to the Swamp Fox tests. This is an Oliver T-60 from the late 1950s that was submitted as a prototype for testing by the military. Do not know what ever happened to them, or if any others were ever built, but I have the manual for it.
Specs:
Curb weight: 8150 lbs
Loaded weight: 9150 lbs
Seating: 4 (1 driver; 3 passengers)
Width: 83 3/8"
Track Width: 30"
Track Length on Ground: 72"
Engine: General Motors AV 248 (120 degree V6)
Transmission: Borg-Warner DG 250 TL (3-speed automatic)
Aux Transmission: Borg-Warner & Oliver (3-speed manual)
Steering Transmission: Oliver Controlled Epicyclic
Performance Characteristics:
Max. Design Speed: 35 MPH
Fording Depth: Unlimited
Water Speed: Undetermined
Max. Grade Ability: 100%
Vertical Obstacle Ability: 21 1/4"
Trench Crossing Ability: 29"
Cruising Range: 200 miles
Specs:
Curb weight: 8150 lbs
Loaded weight: 9150 lbs
Seating: 4 (1 driver; 3 passengers)
Width: 83 3/8"
Track Width: 30"
Track Length on Ground: 72"
Engine: General Motors AV 248 (120 degree V6)
Transmission: Borg-Warner DG 250 TL (3-speed automatic)
Aux Transmission: Borg-Warner & Oliver (3-speed manual)
Steering Transmission: Oliver Controlled Epicyclic
Performance Characteristics:
Max. Design Speed: 35 MPH
Fording Depth: Unlimited
Water Speed: Undetermined
Max. Grade Ability: 100%
Vertical Obstacle Ability: 21 1/4"
Trench Crossing Ability: 29"
Cruising Range: 200 miles
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Undy - Thank you for the comment. According to my reference, the lower pic is an Oliver, Ground Hog that was made in 1949 and did very well in testing with it's unique track design.
There was no name or designation given for the unit in the upper pic, or when it was made. It does use a similar track system, which went through various stages with different pitches tried. It has more bogie wheels than the T-60 and appears to be longer, without the enclosed passenger area, and the bumped out front (probably for cooling). My guess would be it was an intermediate between the Ground Hog and the T-60.
Very cool pics and histories, not to mention it is great to get a response so I know it is not just me posting for my own amusement.
There was no name or designation given for the unit in the upper pic, or when it was made. It does use a similar track system, which went through various stages with different pitches tried. It has more bogie wheels than the T-60 and appears to be longer, without the enclosed passenger area, and the bumped out front (probably for cooling). My guess would be it was an intermediate between the Ground Hog and the T-60.
Very cool pics and histories, not to mention it is great to get a response so I know it is not just me posting for my own amusement.
Manistee,
Oh, by golly, I didn't notice the different suspension. I found the pic and identification here: http://www.unusuallocomotion.com/pages/more-documentation/21-two-tracks-rigid-vehicles-medium.html But I assume anyone on this forum has already seen that.
I always been more of a driver than a mechanic. As I've learned more about mechanics, I've been more fascinated by learning the design than by simply fixing a broken part. So the various forms that snowcats have taken over the years, and the way they do what they do, is of interest to me.
If the lower photo is the older machine, then they appear to have simplified their suspension, or at least swapped smaller bogies for larger ones.
Your photos and info are greatly appreciated!
Oh, by golly, I didn't notice the different suspension. I found the pic and identification here: http://www.unusuallocomotion.com/pages/more-documentation/21-two-tracks-rigid-vehicles-medium.html But I assume anyone on this forum has already seen that.
I always been more of a driver than a mechanic. As I've learned more about mechanics, I've been more fascinated by learning the design than by simply fixing a broken part. So the various forms that snowcats have taken over the years, and the way they do what they do, is of interest to me.
If the lower photo is the older machine, then they appear to have simplified their suspension, or at least swapped smaller bogies for larger ones.
Your photos and info are greatly appreciated!
David Fillman
New member
I have attached a picture of the Nethercutt prototype that I recently purchased. It is supposed to be one of a kind and appears to have the same muffler that the Swamp Fox II Nethercutt has.
