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looking for a cat, what should i get

S

spencerhenry

New member
i have wanted a snowcat for many many years. for some reason i never bought one. i live at 8500 feet with national forest and blm accessible without traveling public roadways. i am an avid coyote hunter and am disappointed that for 5 or so months of the year i cant access most of the state. i want a cat so i can get back into these areas most of the year, some areas are traveled by snowmobiles so there may be some kind of path, but many areas i would guess will be virgin snow. with most of the areas i want to go being very remote and at high elevation. i plan on traveling into these areas and spending a night or two. so far from my limited research i have determined that a spryte is a good choice. for my purposes i think a full cab or troop carrier cab is best, gives me a "camper".
if i buy a spryte, what are the advantages of certain years, or should i get as new as possible? i know i dont want the c-4 rearend, but other than that what do i look for? whatever i get, if it has a manual transmission i will probably switch it to an automatic. i really want it to have a blade for sidehill cutting and operating in virgin territory, but i rarely see a spryte with a blade, where can i find a blade? there is an old bombardier near here that may be for sale, but i havent got any info on them, it is a 2 man cab with a flat bed, looks like hydraulics are there for a blade and maybe some rear attachment. i dont know what model it is, but how on average does a bombardier machine stack up to a thiokol or lmc? i am guessing that the bombardier is a 70's machine. suggestions?
 
what part of the country are you located? what kind of snow? how deep? How wide are the roads or pathways? Is there a limit to how wide of cat you can use? Will you need to transport the cat around on a trailer or can you just leave it in one spot and drive it were you need to go? Personally if i were side hilling a lot and breaking new trails i would go with a Wide Track Spryte, maybe even a 2100 with a custom full cab on it. In addition to a blade, get a winch, some extra line, and read up on how some of the members here have been using them when the get in tight situations. Fuel injection, super charger or a turbo would be nice at your altitude.
 
Just got in a 1981 DMC C model Spryte with front 8 way blade and large crewbox 6 to 8 person from a county SAR . Runs very well and has like new"J" style 36'' tracks and lots of up grades like brush bars lights top racks etc. but does need some minor cosmetics due to fleet use, surface scratches and minor dings.This would be a good snow cat for youy application as it would be easy to convert man box to overnight camper with stand up room. call for price and and photos .located Weiser Idaho 208-549-2501
 
what i have determined so far is a wide track spryte. some of the areas i will be in will be only a couple of feet of snow, but 9 miles from my house i can be at 11,000ft with 5 to 6 feet on a low year and 10 or more on a big year. the high country around aspen is where i hunt the most in the summer and would really like to access it in the winter time. elevations there are going to range from 9000 to 12000 where snow could easily be in the 8 to 10 foot range depending on the year. the trails for access are summer roads that are going to have narrow spots where a 100" machine could be tight, but most areas are pretty wide.
i am no stranger to self recovery and or winching. i used to be into big tire 4x4 for accessing high altitude lakes in june or juy where with locked axles, chains and minimum 36" tires you could drive miles on top of several feet of snow. i also work part time as a logger and have hundreds if not thousands of hours winching logs and other machines. i think i would probably put a hydraulic winch on the cat. i have one sitting on the bench without a home right now.
what is the difference in the different years as far as tracks go? i have heard of the late model "j" tracks but have no idea what that means or how it is different.
i found a lmc 1200 wide track with 12 person cab locally. i have not gotten more info on it yet, but i assume that would be a ford 300 six, c6, oc12, and "j" tracks. it is a 5 axle, but has no blade. i have no idea how many hours are on it yet. i am not worried about a worn out motor or trans as they are easy to come by and i am a ford guy, but what would the concerns be with a high hour machine of that vintage?
 
if i was giong out alone i would not rule out a snomaster they are smaller and a little cramped most need a good rebuild to be reliable but at .25 psi ground pressure there isn't much out there that can out preform one in the deep snow the old n/a vw motor will like some upgrades like a larger carb and big bore kits at those altitudes but being short and wide there should be no reason you need a blade to side hill i have run snow trac on side hills that would flip a truck and it stays put rock solid
 
We also have a year 1998{ sold and titled as year 2000 from a LMC dealer one of the last LMC,s made}LMC Wide track 1200 C with 6 way blade, 5 man cab and also has a lot of options like power assist steering, ROPS, rear deck extension and lights. Machine has low hours and has been one of our lease machines for 4 years and has had a very good service history.Machine will be for sale March 15, 2011 located in Wyoming or, Utah at a major construction company,s yard for inspection Call Bill 208-549-2501 for contact information if interested.
 
other than a worn out engine and trans, the higher the hours the higher the probability the rear end is worn out too. Look for rust and corrosion on the LMC's. The thiokols and early DMC's used more aluminum and less steel. Steel was a bad move for LMC. Look for wornout rubber on the tracks...replacing the rubber is a huge project.
 
so is the body on an lmc 1200 steel?

as far as the rear end being worn out, how can you tell? what wears out, the ring and pinion or the brake bands, or axle bearings? how can you tell without tearing one apart if the rear end is bad? if it is bad, how much does it cost in parts to rebuild one?
 
part of the LMC cabs are steel, the older sprytes were aluminum. The front doors, the floors in the front and the lower half of the front of the cab on the lmc's are steel.

all the parts you mentioned will wear out and you at least need to pull the cover and drain the oil to get a good look. On a high hour cat odds are things are worn and yes it can get very expensive. Bearings will wear and start slipping, bushings will wear out, ring and pinion will wear or possibly break. If you are going to be deep in the back country you really should know what shape things are in rather than roll the dice.
 
so i got a call back today from a guy with a 1987 lmc 1200 with a 12 passenger cabin. from everything i can tell it is a wide track, auto trans. the guy says it has no rust, no leaks, and either he himself or his friend have owned it for almost all its life and there have been no problems. it has one cracked window in front. it also turns out that it has a blade that goes with it that is not currently mounted on it. he is going to get back to me with actual hours and a few other details, he says the tracks are in excellent shape as are the tires.

provided it is as he says and doesnt have any major issues, what is a 1987 1200 worth?
 
I am a new to Snow cat guy myself ( non owner) so take my input for what it is worth. I have looked at Three machines *thiokol sprytes and a ski dozer*this winter and the 638 hour machine had the worst shape rubber of the three. the sun appears to have eaten the life out of the belts. the 3289 hr machine seemed to be a better deal as the belts looked great and the metal parts inside the track have all been removed and rewelded. the dozer was steered by the drag and that seemed weird? If I could order a used cat I would spec a rebuilt rearend and a non running motor with a blown trans. I can't seem to establish a value on the tracks. eight bolts per cleat and four 19' foot loops of belting can't be that much??
where are you at in your search, I found that hours doesn't seem to mean much here in WI?
 
i'm guessing you will have close to $2500.00 into parts to rebuild the track and maybe a week of labor don't forget the labor your time is worth something
 
without doing a tremendous amount of searching, it appears that the belting on a wide track 1200 is around $4000. 8 belts at $500 each approximately. some of the hardware could undoubtedly be reused, however the locking nuts are probably in need of replacement, if badly rusted the bolts are junk too. the labor to replace the belting has got to be significant, i dont mind working on stuff, i have a shop and the tools but really dont want to make it a career. high hours on a machine can mean alot of things, the motor may still be strong and not burn oil, but hours are hours. my pickup has an hour meter on it, and at 80,000 miles the hour meter is at about 2000 if i remember right. so just as an approximation 3000 hours could be the equivalent of 100,000 miles on a car. if no service work has been done on the cat in recent history, the assumption has to be made that the rear end will need a basic service, the bogie wheel bearings will need to be repacked, the motor and trans will at the very least need a filter and oil change, and then all the smaller parts like driveshaft, parking brake, batteries, master cylinders, slave cylinders, starter, alternator, hydraulic pump, etc.

i am told that the hydraulic pump for the blade if bad could cost as much as $1500, rear axle service assuming no broken parts could be around $800 to $900. replacing belting not including labor, around $4200. general service on motor and trans, about $150. repacking all the bogie wheel bearings i would estimate a minimum of $35 per hub not including parts, and that is assuming that the tracks are already off. after doing all that you have a good solid machine, but a chassis that still has lots of hours.
i intend to use mine for backcountry trips where i could be 20 miles from the trailhead at 12,000 feet where few people go. i do not want to be broken down because i lost 2nd gear in the trans, or one of the track belts broke.
i keep telling myself to be patient and the right machine will come along. if i were to buy the local high hour machine, i think in the long run i will have more money in rebuilding it than if i bought a lower hour machine. the local machine has 2800 hours on it. even if i could get it for a good price, i will have around $5000 not including labor just to update the tracks, service the rear end, and clean up some cosmetics. add that to the purchase price and it gets to be an expensive machine real fast. say i have to replace the motor in a year, add another $1000. the small parts add up fast.
 
a higher hour machine can be alot better than a low hour, there is nothing worse for machine to sit for years and years without starting and moving, I have bought machines that are 30 years old with under 300 hours and they cost alot more to put on trail than the ones I have bought with 5000 hours, it is all about how previous owner serviced machine
 
i agree with the statement that a machine that has been sitting for years can be in worse shape. the BIG question is how the machine was used and taken care of. but 2800 hours on a motor is a lot of hours, may run for a couple more years with no issue, or it may use a quart of oil every 20 hours. good thing about the later model lmc/dmc is that a 300 straight six ford is not only a good engine, but they are everywhere. i would guess that i could pick up a good used motor out of a wrecked truck for under $500, a c-6 trans is a great transmission and also very easy to come by.
just have to really look the machine over, and also know what issues you might find on an older machine regardless of hours.
 
People/Companies often change hours meters... so inspection is the only real answer. I think a person can buy a machine that has been used quite a bit but maintained with new belts, welds on grousers, etc. and get it at a good price with the plan on spending a reasonable chunk of change on repairs/replacements. Then you KNOW it's true condition. If you buy a mid-range machine then you take on risk because you've paid more $ and parts/condition may be 50/50 but not good enough for deep back country access. Then you pay double. You buy a machine that appears to be in top condition and pay top dollar... and then find out that all was good except for one key component and you get stratend in the mountains.
If I were in that situation, I'd buy a machine with higher hours and/or iffy condition and get a deal with plan of replacing key components...and then you really know the true condition and can go far into the country and enjoy rather than worry if it will start in the morning or if you'll break down in a nasty condition.
 
all good points. things like tracks are easy to look at and determine condition, a rear end on the other hand is a little harder. unless i had documented service work done i would assume that i would have to do the work. if i can work a deal on the cat i am going to look at, even before i get there i have to make some assumptions. first assumption is that i will have to service the rear end with new gaskets, seals, fluid, and brake bands, and probably slave cylinders. second assumption is that i will have to replace all fluids, air, fuel, and oil filters, cap and rotor, and perhaps plugs, plug wires. but unless the machine came from a dealer that could document all that work, it would do that on any machine. the machine may be in operable condition, and if i were buying it to run up and down a hard packed road it might be fine for a season or more. but i am going to use it in areas where i could literally be 15 or 20 miles from a trailhead, not a place i want to be with a broken rear end or track belt.

speaking of a broken track belt, what do you experienced cat owners carry to repair a broken belt? and in general what parts and or tools do you carry? when i was running off road races, we carried spare steering boxes, trans oil, motor oil, water, tie rod ends, ball joints, driveshafts, caps and plugs for brake, oil, and hydraulic lines.
 
if when applying pressure to the left stick, it take mores pressure to than the right stick and doesnt seem to slow the track, until all of a sudden it grabs violently with a bang, does that mean the brake band is worn out? are there other problems that this might be a symptom of?

this is on an lmc 1200.
 
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