IR night vision ~ QUESTION ~ can I over illuminate an area with IR?

[Melensdad]

I've got cameras around my property but they have much greater range during the day than they have at night.

I'm thinking of putting out some IR Flood lights to illuminate some of the perimeter area with Infra Red light so the cameras can see beyond the edge of what is illuminated by the IR emitters that are integrated into the cameras.

My question is, is it possible to OVER ILLUMINATE an area with IR light and wash out the image?

I have 1 camera that picks up IR illumination from another camera and it really works well to extend the range of that camera. That is what gave me the idea of using some IR Floods to illuminate the area beyond the normal IR emitter range of the camera.​

ANYONE OUT THERE have real life I.R. illumination experience and can you tell me if this is a good idea or if I will destroy the images by over-illuminating the areas?

I'm looking at something like this for area illumination (45-degree wide beam). IR40 Infrared Illuminator, 48 pcs IR LEDs, 135FT Long IR Distance, 45° Light Angle, IP66 Rating,Infrared Bullet Security Cameras, - CCTVSecurityPros.com

And something like this to illuminate out to the far end of the swimming pool and the workshop that is beyond the pool (about 120' range)
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/KLS-IR110-Outdoor-200-300ft-Illuminator/dp/B003ZX1M88/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=INQK8HMVL0R50&colid=1XZNG6GHPC76F]Amazon.com: KLS IR110 - 114 LED Indoor/Outdoor Long Range 200-300ft IR Illuminator With Free 3A 12VDC Adaptor: Electronics[/ame]

 

[Snowtrac Nome]

i don't know about camaras but with the military nght vision it didnt take much of an ir light to see along way on a couudy night and if the stars were out with snow cover you could see for ever

 

[Melensdad]

The IR cameras see in total darkness but only for about 50 feet, maybe a bit more.



THIS IR EMITTER => http://www.vitekcctv.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductID=193 Looks to be one of the few that has a VERY WIDE beam spread. Most are "spot" light type beams, but this one has an 80-Degree beam spread and might be the ticket to what I am looking for, 80 degree spread and 100 foot range seems like a winning combination.

 

[Dargo]

All I can tell you from having 16 cameras for many years is to take the distance promised and divide it by 2 and then, if you need the image for prosecution, divide by 2 again. Distances for IR night vision is greatly overstated to put it mildly. I have a very expensive setup on my M107 and I can see decent at 100 yards and make out images at 200 yards. Remember, this is as high end as a consumer can reasonably buy, it's for a rifle, and it has a limited field of view.

For home use, unfortunately, the only real answer is to string more cameras. You're not going to get what you want otherwise. Besides, by the time you get images you want that are clear, it will probably be cheaper to add another 8 or 16 cameras.

 

[Melensdad]

All I can tell you from having 16 cameras for many years is to take the distance promised and divide it by 2. . .

For home use, unfortunately, the only real answer is to string more cameras. You're not going to get what you want otherwise. Besides, by the time you get images you want that are clear, it will probably be cheaper to add another 8 or 16 cameras.

I agree with you on IR distances. I've had systems for years at work, for commercial grade equipment the best you can hope for is 2/3rds the advertised distance.

The other thing with IR output is that it gets shorter as the emitters age. So a camera with a 50' range today will have a 40' range in a few years, maybe less. That is another reason I'd like to add some IR floods.

As for capturing the images, some of my cameras overlap the views, what I am looking to do is to pick up movement on the edges, as the person/dog/deer/raccoon gets close enough to do mischief then either that camera or another camera will have a good image.

FWIW, my cameras are all commercial grade units, not the $59 to $169 consumer grade stuff. I may be easily amused, but the other night I was watching moths fly across the driveway in total darkness; the cameras are pretty good. My system is not done yet, I've got at least 1 more camera to install, but we are putting up a small pool shed/bar and the camera will be mounted on that as soon as its done.

 

[DaveNay]

The problem with IR is that it is easily absorbed by most common materials. Obviously, when energy is absorbed, it can't be reflected back to the camera for you to see. That then comes around to the second issue with how most lighting sources are spec'd out. They are rated by the amount of light at a given distance from the source. Obviously, the light has to travel from the source, to the target and back to the camera before it is useful. This means there is a dramatic drop off in the quantity of light that actually makes it to the camera sensor.

You also need to make sure that your lenses do not have any coatings on them that are opaque to the IR energy, or else you will reduce your sensitivity even more.

Finally, color cameras are crap when it comes to IR. You need to stick with B&W and make sure there is not a IR-Cutoff filter on the sensor (used to reduce glare in daylight conditions).

 

[loboloco]

Short answer, Mel, yes you can over illuminate. the military has a special grenade just for screwing up IR sensors. I doubt, though, that unless you just completely flooded the cameras with the lights, that you would have that problem. Interesting experiment. The comercial grade is better than the consumer stuff, just as the military has stuff that would make commercial look sick. Some of the older mil grade can be bought at reasonable prices.

 

[Melensdad]

One reason I'm looking for extra illuminators is because they do degrade over a couple year span so it makes sense to add them into the mix.

I think based on the fact that I'm looking to cross illuminate the areas, and based on the feedback and the info I've been able to find, it doesn't look like I'm at a big risk of over illuminating.

 

[muleman]

So you are really saying you are not too bright?

 

[Melensdad]

THIS IR EMITTER => VITEK VT-IR2-12: 12VDC LED Infrared Illuminator w/100' Range Looks to be one of the few that has a VERY WIDE beam spread. Most are "spot" light type beams, but this one has an 80-Degree beam spread and might be the ticket to what I am looking for!

Best price I can find for this emitter is $189. VITEK VT-IR2-12

I've found other emitters that have similar range but offer an even wider spread (up to 130 degrees) but they come at a much higher price.

I believe that 3 of these augmenting my current system would be more than sufficient to light up the areas that I want to see at night. Each one will cover an area that is "seen" by 2 of my cameras. 2 will be mounted high, about 22 to 25' above the ground and fanning out along the edges of the woods. One will be mounted under a first floor roof eve and pointed at the extra garage/guest apartment/workshop which should light up the front and side walls (overhead doors, side entry door, shop windows).

Eventually I'd like to get a camera out to the back side of the workshop, but that will require a long video run that may not be practical? How long can you run video cable on a typical commercial grade system? While the pool house/bar's camera is about 85' from the house, the wire is over 120' because it has to run up/down walls, underground, etc. I've not measured it, but I'd suspect that running out to the back of the workshop would require at least a 200' cable, maybe a bit longer?

 

[joec]

Mine uses a two coaxial cable system per camera and they run up to 200+yards with no signal loss.

 

[Melensdad]

Mine uses a two coaxial cable system per camera and they run up to 200+yards with no signal loss.

That is what mine uses, I didn't know they would run that far. That's good news

 

[joec]

That is what mine uses, I didn't know they would run that far. That's good news

It was my understanding from the install crew that put it in their is little to no lose of single in up to 1000 yards with the right coaxial cable. Even at greater distances they can put a booster in the line from what they said.

As for your original question I can't help with that at all. I do know that some of our lights if angled wrong can cause the picture to wash out at night. To stop this I went out and changed the angle on several lights to correct it.

 

[Melensdad]

...As for your original question I can't help with that at all. I do know that some of our lights if angled wrong can cause the picture to wash out at night. To stop this I went out and changed the angle on several lights to correct it.

From what I can find out (both here and from another website) if the IR emitters are far enough away and not pointing into the cameras and if the beams don't have a high level of overlap close to the camera, what I want to do is not a problem. I am planning to use 3 of the above (or similar) IR illuminators, one of them will be about 75' from the 2 nearest cameras and pointing across their views. Another will be about 30' away from, and 10' above 2 other cameras and pointing out away from them to illuminate the edge of the woods where they can't 'see' because their IR is now powerful enough. The final one will be around the corner and 15+' away from another camera, pointing in the same general direction as the camera, and may mildly wash out the area close to the camera but shouldn't be too bad because of the distance from the camera.

 

[joec]

Our lights are all standard type flood lights so I kind of think they will wash out in lower light levels. I have never used IR lights so don't know.