Home Generator for upcoming power shortage season?

[Melensdad]

I have a whole house generator, have had one for 25-ish years. Saw this article and was surprised and how much of the US and Canada is at risk of losing power for extended periods of time.

Full story at the link:

Time For A Generator? New Warning Says Half Of US At Risk Of Grid Down This Winter | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

Time For A Generator? New Warning Says Half Of US At Risk Of Grid Down This Winter​

The 2023-24 Winter Reliability Assessment (WRA) report by the North American Electric Reliability Corp. warns of a heightened risk of "insufficient energy supply" during extreme cold spells. This concern extends over large swaths of the US and Canadian power grid, affecting approximately 180 million people. Those living in the highlighted regions should consider securing backup power generation sources.​

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Power grid operators from Texas to New England are "at risk of insufficient electricity supplies during peak winter conditions," the report said.​

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The report continued that the reliable operation of the Bulk Power System (BPS) and the availability of fuel for natural gas-fired generators are at risk during severe, widespread cold snaps. It said that recent winter incidents have shown that over 20% of generating capacity can be knocked off online by freezing temperatures in areas of North America that are not accustomed to such cold. When power supplies are limited, BPS operators may experience a sharp rise in demand due to the increased use of electric heating systems in colder temperatures.​

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According to Bloomberg, this year's WRA is "even more dire than last year's report, which said a quarter of Americans were at risk of cold-weather power emergencies. It includes for the first time some of the most densely populated areas on the East Coast, a region that relies heavily on natural gas as it transitions to renewable energy. Gas generators there widely failed during a brief but fierce winter storm last December because they broke down or couldn't get fuel."​

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Earlier this year, PJM Interconnection, the power grid operator in 13 states that stretch from Illinois to New Jersey with over 65 million customers, published a study that found an alarming trend of state and federal decarbonization policies across the grid that "present increasing reliability risks during the transition, due to a potential timing mismatch between resource retirements, load growth and the pace of new generation entry."​

 

[Cidertom]

For most of my life, I have been where commercial power was not a sure thing, especially in Winter. Before my last move (2005) a 2 week outage was a yearly event, and a 28 day outage happened twice in the 6 years I owned my home. At this new place, the longest has been a 8 day outage. In the Pacific NW, the cities are fairly well protected, those of us in the rural , not so much. The difference between the article and our reality, we probably have the generation capacity (today) but the grid has much more single points of failure compared to the midwest and East.

Up on the mountain were I was, Our fire District gave out "welcome to the area" packets. These discussed the issues the area faced. I'm pretty certain most people threw them away before I got back to the command rig. No power also meant no water. That lead to some interesting conversations during the extended outages.

 

[chowderman]

anyone living in an 'iffy' grid situation must be prepared to support themselves.

we are not in an 'iffy' electrical grid situation.
however,,,, some years back a water slug hit the high pressure reducing valve station and knocked it out. and the gas company had NO SPARES meaning . . . no quick repair.
shame that none of those executives ever served in the Navy. one thing about being on a ship in the middle of the ocean - it teaches you to think ahead and plan for the never-gonna-happen stuff. . . .

we were without natural gas - no heating, no cooking, no hot water . . . for days.
we had electricity.
hot plates, griddles.
space heaters, open oven door, everybody sleeping on the floor in the warmest room in the house . . .

I had a generator - just not a natural gas generator . . .

 

[EastTexFrank]

Like Bob, I have a whole house, natural gas generator. Well, not quite but almost. During the winter it will run everything. The heat, hot water and cook top all run on natural gas and the generator supplies the power to run the electronics on those and power the rest of the house. The problem is that, during the summer, the generator will not power the a/c or the well pump because they are both 3-phase. We can get by with 2 portable a/c units, a big evaporative cooler and a multitude of fans.

It also helps that we are on a rural electric co-op and not tied to ERCOT. Our co-op buys it's electricity from a number of smaller producers and we've never had a problem with supply. So, as long as the storms, falling trees and freezing rain don't bring down the lines, I think that we're good.

For years before the whole house generator, I had two smaller gas generators which allowed us to get by in an emergency with a lot of extension cords and managing the power.

 

[m1west]

Like Bob, I have a whole house, natural gas generator. Well, not quite but almost. During the winter it will run everything. The heat, hot water and cook top all run on natural gas and the generator supplies the power to run the electronics on those and power the rest of the house. The problem is that, during the summer, the generator will not power the a/c or the well pump because they are both 3-phase. We can get by with 2 portable a/c units, a big evaporative cooler and a multitude of fans.

It also helps that we are on a rural electric co-op and not tied to ERCOT. Our co-op buys it's electricity from a number of smaller producers and we've never had a problem with supply. So, as long as the storms, falling trees and freezing rain don't bring down the lines, I think that we're good.

For years before the whole house generator, I had two smaller gas generators which allowed us to get by in an emergency with a lot of extension cords and managing the power.

How many KW

 

[m1west]

I have 2 diesel generators 1- 10kw that almost runs everything like ETF, over the summer I picked up a 15KW, that one should do the whole house in the summer. The 10KW will go to the Cabin.

 

[tommu56]

I have 2 one dual fuel 4500 watts 220v that feeds my house essentials internet, heat, lights refrigerator and freezers. And one for camping that is gas powered at 4500 watts and is relatively quiet compared to the other for plan B plan C is to go to camp and get generator from there same dual fuel as the other 4500 watts.

 

[EastTexFrank]

How many KW

Generac 24KW natural gas.

 

[Cidertom]

When I was in the mountains the 12.5 KW diesel provided energy two ways. The electricity and heat. I had a heatpump central air which during the snow was worthless. It relied on it's backup heat which took 4-6 KW.

I plumbed two insulated lines from the duct work under the house to the generator building. At the duct, I installed a radiator that fit in the duct. In the generator building was a selector valve to switch between the regular radiator and the house. In line with the house feed was a small hot water boost pump to make up for the pressure loss in the pipe. Since most of the long outages were snow based it worked wonderful. And using the waste heat drove my efficiency way up.

 

[bczoom]

I have several generators from 1.5KW up to 15KW depending on what all I want to run. All are gas. I sold my 2 diesel gensets and my 30KW blew up.
I recently added a small solar system to my backup power plan.

 

[m1west]

Generac 24KW natural gas.

Does it take the 24kw to start your AC in the summer

 

[EastTexFrank]

Does it take the 24kw to start your AC in the summer

The a/c is 3-phase as is the well pump. They're not even hooked up to the back-up generator which is single phase.

 

[m1west]

The a/c is 3-phase as is the well pump. They're not even hooked up to the back-up generator which is single phase.

AAHH, you know you can get a phase converter to fix that. All my stuff is single phase, except a mill and lathe I have in the shop, I use a phase converter to run it. Wasn't that expensive or difficult to wire in.

 

[EastTexFrank]

AAHH, you know you can get a phase converter to fix that. All my stuff is single phase, except a mill and lathe I have in the shop, I use a phase converter to run it. Wasn't that expensive or difficult to wire in.

Yes, I do but I know nothing about 3-phase converters except in principle. I don't know how to size it and I have the feeling that the 24kW generator may not be big enough to run all the stuff in the house plus a 5-tonne and 3-tonne a/c unit. Then there is also the well pump. Off the top of my head, I don't know what size that is. If I wanted to try that, I'd definitely need some help. It's not something that I'd try on my own.

 

[m1west]

Yes, I do but I know nothing about 3-phase converters except in principle. I don't know how to size it and I have the feeling that the 24kW generator may not be big enough to run all the stuff in the house plus a 5-tonne and 3-tonne a/c unit. Then there is also the well pump. Off the top of my head, I don't know what size that is. If I wanted to try that, I'd definitely need some help. It's not something that I'd try on my own.

Im no electrician but able to pull it off. I would at least get the well pump hooked up with one. If you know how many Volts, watts and amps the manufacturer of the phase converter can size it for you. There a couple ways to go, one is a rotary phase converter, thats what I have. Its like an electric motor that runs from the single phase 230V then its converted to 3 phase 230V that goes to the Lathe.
Also there is an electronic version that does the same thing. Its about $1500.00 to do it, but a drink of water or a shower in a long power outage is priceless.

 

[Cidertom]

if the well pump is 2hp or less, surplus center has some 1ph >3ph VF drives that deliver true 3ph. fairly cheap. Rotary converters do a great job, but still are not true 3 phase. https://www.surpluscenter.com/Electrical/AC-3-Phase-Motors/Variable-Frequency-Drives/

I won't touch a "static" 3 phase converter. at best is 2/3rs of hp and motors overheat.

 

[m1west]

if the well pump is 2hp or less, surplus center has some 1ph >3ph VF drives that deliver true 3ph. fairly cheap. Rotary converters do a great job, but still are not true 3 phase. https://www.surpluscenter.com/Electrical/AC-3-Phase-Motors/Variable-Frequency-Drives/

I won't touch a "static" 3 phase converter. at best is 2/3rs of hp and motors overheat.

I've been using my rotary converter for years now without issue, sounds like you know more about it than I do. the manufacturer walked me through it and recommended the rotary over a static inverter.

 

[chowderman]

three phase converters get real expensive real fast as their capacity goes up.
a rotary converter to run a well pump shouldn't be all that expensive - as for capacity, check the spec on the pump or worst case the size of the breaker.

exactly how to wire it in depends on your set up - the most important thing is that you must ensure the pump is not being supplied power from two/both sources simultaneously. for "automatic" operation you'll have to install a transfer switch. it can be done manually - but not by anyone who is clueless and can't follow directions.
the biggest "problem" will be getting the phases correct so the pump runs in the correct rotation.

 

[Cidertom]

I've been using my rotary converter for years now without issue, sounds like you know more about it than I do. the manufacturer walked me through it and recommended the rotary over a static inverter.

Rotary have been the workhorse of converters until recently, and in many areas still are. They can supply more than one load at once, give great starting ability. Their downside is that they generate a "high leg DELTA" 3 phase. Some 3 phase loads need the supply to be a WYE (Y). This is usually because some part of the load needs 120 v. To make the delta into a wye, you have to add a 3 phase transformer ($$). The newer inverter style is rapidly taking over in the 2HP and less category and in the sub hp really shine. Add in the ability to soft start and if you're doing machine tools/ blowers etc : fine speed changes.

 

[Cidertom]

the biggest "problem" will be getting the phases correct so the pump runs in the correct rotation.

Any electrician that does 3ph will have a phase clock. makes it easy to match the two .

 

[chowderman]

yes. but I'm pretty sure the guy DIYing it doesn't

 

[XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq]

Everybody should have Generac whole house generators ... at least as a shareholder I think they should.

 

[tommu56]

Yes, I do but I know nothing about 3-phase converters except in principle. I don't know how to size it and I have the feeling that the 24kW generator may not be big enough to run all the stuff in the house plus a 5-tonne and 3-tonne a/c unit. Then there is also the well pump. Off the top of my head, I don't know what size that is. If I wanted to try that, I'd definitely need some help. It's not something that I'd try on my own.

Look at a 220v single phase drive to 3 phase I've converted a few machin tools over for a shop near me I prefer the AC TECH SMVector drives simple to program variable speed can be fixed if you need it.
One had a R head bridgeport and he sais it worked like the J head after I put the VSD on it.

 

[Cidertom]

Well, right now I wish I had the hot water system plumbed into the current house. They restoration predictions run to a week from tuesday. Unfortunately, we are expecting another round of freezing rain with up to an additional inch of ice accumulation. The Power company outage numbers are increasing not decreasing. Still I have diesel for about another 240 hours with out refueling.

Wife unit saying thank you to puttputt

 

[300 H and H]

I bought a city owned mid 1980's Onan 125 KW gen set from the community where it had powered the wastewater treatment plant.
MId 1980's manufactured, 8.3 liter Cummins turbo rated at 207 HP @1,800 RPM with a grand total of 118 hrs on it.
It was on a cement slab mounted on top of the 300 gal diesel fuel tank. I took it home for $4K. Complete with a remote control panel and service entrance and all the automatic power sensing switch gear for automatic operation and exercise every 30 days.
The city had put in a new larger wastewater treatment system with of course government grants. Even though the old gen set
was big enough, it had no emissions controls on it, and that was the kiss of death. The new one with Tier IV emission controls was over $60K.
It is way too big for my needs so I sold it to a good friend who can keep his business going in a power out event.
I need to run into a deal on a 30-40Kw set. Thinking ex Military might be what I need? WE have propane here, but I prefer Diesel.

 

[m1west]

I bought a city owned mid 1980's Onan 125 KW gen set from the community where it had powered the waste treatment plant.
MId 1980's manufactured, 8.3 liter Cummins turbo rated at 207 HP @1,800 RPM with a grand total of 118 hrs on it.
It was on a cement slab mounted on top of the 300 gal diesel fuel tank. I took it home for $4K. Complete with a remote control panel and service entrance and all the automatic power sensing switch gear for automatic operation and exercise every 30 days.
The city had put in a new larger wastewater treatment system with of course government grants. Even though the old gen set
was big enough, it had no emissions controls on it, and that was the kiss of death. The new one with Tier IV emission controls was over $60K.
It is way too big for my needs so I sold it to a good friend who can keep his business going in a power out event.
I need to run into a deal on a 30-40Kw set. Thinking ex Military might be what I need? WE have propane here, but I prefer Diesel.

I had a 50kw unit that I traded a old forklift for. It ran on propane, and a lot of it with a 6 cylinder Perkins. I was overkill for me too. I sold it to the Marina next to where my boat is for $3500.00

 

[Cidertom]

One thing I found servicing gensets for communication sites that people miss. Every genset has a minimum fuel consumption. For mine it's around 3.75 KW under that load the fuel consumption is basically the same. For a 30KW unit that may well be 8-9KW. At that consumption it can get pretty expensive if the load isn't justified. I admit having to do manual load shedding is a pain, but at todays fuel prices..... The second thing that is "new" is with bio-fuel being added to the mix (If you can get straight dinosaur diesel this doesn't apply) the bio fuel degrades over a 18-24 month period. So if that's the only use of a diesel supply it can degrade before use. Doesn't seem to hurt the equipment, but it loses the power of the percentage of bio. If you can use the diesel each year, it's not an issue.

If I didn't already have the diesel, I would have gone propane. Here, the frequency and duration of outage doesn't justify the diesel. I get around the bio issue by using the genset diesel for tractor work each summer and top off each fall, that way it's still fresh.

 

[300 H and H]

One thing I found servicing gensets for communication sites that people miss. Every genset has a minimum fuel consumption. For mine it's around 3.75 KW under that load the fuel consumption is basically the same. For a 30KW unit that may well be 8-9KW. At that consumption it can get pretty expensive if the load isn't justified. I admit having to do manual load shedding is a pain, but at todays fuel prices..... The second thing that is "new" is with bio-fuel being added to the mix (If you can get straight dinosaur diesel this doesn't apply) the bio fuel degrades over a 18-24 month period. So if that's the only use of a diesel supply it can degrade before use. Doesn't seem to hurt the equipment, but it loses the power of the percentage of bio. If you can use the diesel each year, it's not an issue.

If I didn't already have the diesel, I would have gone propane. Here, the frequency and duration of outage doesn't justify the diesel. I get around the bio issue by using the genset diesel for tractor work each summer and top off each fall, that way it's still fresh.

Great post. The fuel to run a gen set that is too large for your needs is noteworthy.

I have a 10K gasoline set that in winter would run all I need in the winter, if I use the water heater at night.
I would eventually put a diesel set together with a 35HP Hatz diesel engine I have. It should pull a 15KW generator.
Or a 12 KW unit with engine speed reduced to 2,200 rpm.

Unfortunately, in the Summer it might not run my AC in the house. If I am calculating things correctly it would probably take a 20KW to run the AC in the house.

I guess I would rather be too warm in the summer when outages historically are rare and short lived. Winter is the real killer if you
cannot heat in subzero temps.

I keep enough diesel here year around that it makes sense to use it for fuel.

 

[Cidertom]

one option for those with tractors, you can buy a generator that utilizes the PTO. The frequency regulation isn't as good as a dedicated power unit with a stable governor, but it's usually good enough.. The downside is that many of the commercial ones are set to 540 RPM input which may not be great for engine speed. Or fab a belt drive where you can get a more reasonable tractor RPM.

 

[bczoom]

one option for those with tractors, you can buy a generator that utilizes the PTO.

I've considered those over the years but opted against it in every case for a couple reasons.
1) When we get power outages, it's normally weather related. When there's bad weather, the tractor normally has other duties.
2) I'd rather put engine hours for things like gensets, log splitters... (implements that "could" be used via PTO) on their own, cheaper engine and right-sized engine. Why run the tractor's oversized diesel to run a log splitter that can instead be run by a 6HP Briggs & Stratton?