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Global Agriculture Collapse | Peter Zeihan

300 H and H

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Fertilizers, fuels, feed grain and cheap wheat--we've seen prices across the board jump in recent weeks following Moscow's invasion of Ukraine. We know what happened last time Russian wheat exports didn't reach markets in 2008--a series of price spikes that left several vulnerable governments reeling. Across the Arab world, we saw these consequences play out as the Arab Spring. But what happens when food inputs are not only more expensive, but impossible to find? What of the globalized agricultural market, where producers across the global are dependent on imported inputs to grow exported feed grain? Where subsidized bread is made from imported grain? And the transport systems moving everything face rising fuel costs? Russia's abundance of flat, cool-temperate land doesn't provide much in terms of defensible geography. But it is good for growing grain, particularly wheat. Russia's place in global grain markets is also a great example of technology helping a country overcome geographic limitations. Moscow was not blessed with a country boasting an American or German level of navigable riverways, nor are its prime grain producing regions particularly close to any of its ports. Enter rail. Russia is often derided as a gas station masquerading as a country. As I have noted before, this is an oversimplification that belies the significant role Moscow plays in global agricultural markets. Russia and its wheat belt neighbors, particularly Ukraine, are significant agricultural exporters of grains and seed oils. But Russia is also leading global exporter of fertilizers and fertilizer components. Not only do Russian fertilizer exports help support agricultural production in Brazil, China, India and Europe, but they help provide necessary supply in a globalized market that is increasingly seeing farmers' input costs rise. The breaking of trade relationships, spasms in energy pricing, and most certainly the Ukraine War will limit sharply what is possible in the world of agriculture, and do so more quickly than I have ever feared. Join us March 11 for a seminar on the impact of the Ukraine War on global agriculture. We’ll dive deep into the product and input disruptions that will shape our world this year, and deep into the future.
 

Melensdad

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YUP

I have listened to some interviews of him recently and what he is saying is scary as hell. And he is brilliant, but speaks simply.

In North America we will have food, but high prices. In the middle east there will be starvation. In China and parts of sub saharan Africa there will probably be starvation.
 

m1west

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Fertilizers, fuels, feed grain and cheap wheat--we've seen prices across the board jump in recent weeks following Moscow's invasion of Ukraine. We know what happened last time Russian wheat exports didn't reach markets in 2008--a series of price spikes that left several vulnerable governments reeling. Across the Arab world, we saw these consequences play out as the Arab Spring. But what happens when food inputs are not only more expensive, but impossible to find? What of the globalized agricultural market, where producers across the global are dependent on imported inputs to grow exported feed grain? Where subsidized bread is made from imported grain? And the transport systems moving everything face rising fuel costs? Russia's abundance of flat, cool-temperate land doesn't provide much in terms of defensible geography. But it is good for growing grain, particularly wheat. Russia's place in global grain markets is also a great example of technology helping a country overcome geographic limitations. Moscow was not blessed with a country boasting an American or German level of navigable riverways, nor are its prime grain producing regions particularly close to any of its ports. Enter rail. Russia is often derided as a gas station masquerading as a country. As I have noted before, this is an oversimplification that belies the significant role Moscow plays in global agricultural markets. Russia and its wheat belt neighbors, particularly Ukraine, are significant agricultural exporters of grains and seed oils. But Russia is also leading global exporter of fertilizers and fertilizer components. Not only do Russian fertilizer exports help support agricultural production in Brazil, China, India and Europe, but they help provide necessary supply in a globalized market that is increasingly seeing farmers' input costs rise. The breaking of trade relationships, spasms in energy pricing, and most certainly the Ukraine War will limit sharply what is possible in the world of agriculture, and do so more quickly than I have ever feared. Join us March 11 for a seminar on the impact of the Ukraine War on global agriculture. We’ll dive deep into the product and input disruptions that will shape our world this year, and deep into the future.
So Kirk, you are on the ground living it in real time. What is your opinion on it all. Is it BS or are we in for a real ride here?
 

300 H and H

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The wild ride I believe will be mostly in Europe, and Nothern Africa.
Bread is a stapple of the poor. They will be harmed the most.
We will be OK, but expect higher prices ahead.

Commodities in general don't tend to move very far, as shipping costs eat up the values pretty fast.
Fuel prices are included in all commodities. So watch what fuel does.

We also have a Canadian Rail Road on strike that supplies North America with potash. That worries me.
 

m1west

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The wild ride I believe will be mostly in Europe, and Nothern Africa.
Bread is a stapple of the poor. They will be harmed the most.
We will be OK, but expect higher prices ahead.

Commodities in general don't tend to move very far, as shipping costs eat up the values pretty fast.
Fuel prices are included in all commodities. So watch what fuel does.

We also have a Canadian Rail Road on strike that supplies North America with potash. That worries me.
what about 2023 and beyond
 
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Melensdad

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Get the Ukraine situation settled in 2022 and 2023 is much more normal.
If it drags on into 2023 there will be even more issues.
Kirk, I'm not as optimistic as you are.

Potash for fertilizer, has, prior to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, been halted by a couple major exporting countries. While the US gets a good deal of it from Canada, Europe and other places are going to have problems. There is an ongoing phosphorus shortage for fertilizer that has been been growing worse.

Europe, already facing a shortage of affordable Natural Gas before the Russian invasion of Ukraine, had already shut shuttered most of its nitrogen fertilizer production.

I don't see any food shortages in North or Central America. Probably not in South America or in Europe. But I see food prices in the middle east jumping perhaps 10 to 15 fold. In the middle east much of the food is subsidized. The Arab Spring uprisings were largely caused by food price increases and those price increases were based on far smaller disruptions in the supply chains. China could also be in serious trouble. It imports a huge percentage of its food and is dependent upon Ukraine, Russia and other nations for both food and fertilizer. Parts of sub-Saharan Africa are also dependent upon Ukrainian wheat, grain, sunflower oil, etc.

I would hope you are correct. I hope I am wrong.

I hope Peter Zeihan is wrong, but I trust much of what he says. There are several long interviews of his that have come out recently and all of them are very doom & gloom for world food supplies, he predicts widespread famine, he is also predicting 5 and 10 year timelines for recovery.
 

m1west

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Kirk, I'm not as optimistic as you are.

Potash for fertilizer, has, prior to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, been halted by a couple major exporting countries. While the US gets a good deal of it from Canada, Europe and other places are going to have problems. There is an ongoing phosphorus shortage for fertilizer that has been been growing worse.

Europe, already facing a shortage of affordable Natural Gas before the Russian invasion of Ukraine, had already shut shuttered most of its nitrogen fertilizer production.

I don't see any food shortages in North or Central America. Probably not in South America or in Europe. But I see food prices in the middle east jumping perhaps 10 to 15 fold. In the middle east much of the food is subsidized. The Arab Spring uprisings were largely caused by food price increases and those price increases were based on far smaller disruptions in the supply chains. China could also be in serious trouble. It imports a huge percentage of its food and is dependent upon Ukraine, Russia and other nations for both food and fertilizer. Parts of sub-Saharan Africa are also dependent upon Ukrainian wheat, grain, sunflower oil, etc.

I would hope you are correct. I hope I am wrong.

I hope Peter Zeihan is wrong, but I trust much of what he says. There are several long interviews of his that have come out recently and all of them are very doom & gloom for world food supplies, he predicts widespread famine, he is also predicting 5 and 10 year timelines for recovery.
I hope Kirk is right too
 
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Melensdad

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If I were all that optimistic I would not posted the OP.
I put it here as a warning to our members who care to read.
Ah, good. More people need to realize what is going on and how bad it could get.

Here is a tag along article, describing what is happening in other parts of the world, but nowhere near as doom and gloom as it can be. We sit here in North America with 1st world problems while many in the 3rd world will literally starve to death. But our North American 1st world problems will hit a lot of people very hard as they cut back on meat, switch to beans for protein. The food will be there, but it will be expensive.

Soaring Prices Are Changing the Way People Eat​


(Bloomberg) -- In India, roadside restaurateurs are halving their palm oil use and moving into steamed snacks. Bakers in Ivory Coast want to cut the size of their standard baguette. Sandwiches from U.S. fast-food stalls are headed for fewer slices of bacon, pizzas for a more parsimonious sprinkle of pepperoni.

With the world economy already shackled by Covid-related shortages and now reeling from Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, prices of such basics as bread, meat and cooking oils have jumped across the world, sending shock waves through the commodity markets and damaging the global food system.

For the most vulnerable societies—think Yemen, which imports 90% of its food in the midst of a grinding conflict and depreciating currency—this poses a genuine risk of hunger. Elsewhere, it triggers worries about what economists call demand destruction, a phenomenon when goods get too pricey to purchase.

“The cupboards are bare,” said Julian Conway McGill, head of South East Asia at consultancy LMC International, “and consumers will have to reduce their intake.”
Soaring Prices Are Changing the Way People Eat

In households as well as in the food-services industry, vegetable oils have become indispensable, used for deep-frying instant noodles, making cakes moist and giving pastries their flaky texture. Exporters were already grappling with labor shortages and bad weather. The attack on Ukraine further roiled global crop trading and sent prices of the two most common oils, palm and soybean, to records. Governments are starting to step in, curbing exports, controlling prices and coming down hard on hoarders. But as higher costs seep through to grocery bills and with festivals in Asia fast approaching, consumers are being forced to scale back.

Raju Sahoo, a 48-year-old roadside restaurant operator in the eastern Indian state of Odisha, has halved his daily palm oil purchases to 15 kilograms by selling fewer fried snacks and switching to more steamed foods.

“I am currently making 300 to 400 fried dumplings a day compared with about 1,000 pieces earlier,” Sahoo said. “I have started making idlis and upma to give more options to my customers,” he added, referring to steamed rice cakes and semolina, popular breakfast dishes.

Cooking oil shortages have been worsening since last year. In Malaysia—the world’s number two palm oil producer—output fell drastically due to a chronic labor shortage. Then drought decimated the canola crop in Canada and slashed the soybean harvests in Brazil and Argentina. Buyers were counting on filling in with sunflower oil from Ukraine and Russia, which together make up about 75% of the world’s exports. The invasion ended that possibility.
Soaring Prices Are Changing the Way People Eat

The market reacted swiftly. Prices of the four major cooking oils—palm, soybean, rapeseed and sunflower—soared, and the rally is set to cascade down to shoppers in the form of higher costs for everything from candy to chocolate. Sub-Saharan Africa and South Asia face the likelihood of heightened poverty, LMC’s McGill added, and demand destruction may arise suddenly as companies use less oil or shrink their product size all at the same time.

For instance, the Organization of Bakery Employers in Ivory Coast is seeking to cut the weight of a baguette, whose price is fixed by law, because of the rising cost of wheat due to the Ukraine war. It suggests 150 instead of 200 grams, the current approved weight, it said in a statement Friday.

With changes like that, social unrest may be looming, especially in India, according to Brice Dunlop, principal industry analyst for food and drink at Fitch Solutions. “India has a long history of unrest related to shortages in key food products, and vegetable oils are a key ingredient in many of the different Indian cuisines,” he said.

The war is also exacerbating a record surge in fertilizer prices, which will only make food more expensive. Brazilian farmer Zilto Donadello plans to cut fertilizer applications 30% to 50% in the next soybean crop, likely resulting in lower yields on his 400-hectare-farm in northern Mato Grosso in the agriculture heartland of the world’s biggest soybean producer. Donadello hasn’t bought crop nutrients for the planting in September because he was waiting for a price drop after last year’s high—and then faced the new sticker shock from the invasion. Soybean prices have risen but not enough to make up for higher costs.

“Risks are very high for a tiny margin,” Donadello said.
Soaring Prices Are Changing the Way People Eat

Still, Donadello’s plan is in line with a recommendation from Aprosoja, Brazil’s largest farming group. “We have fertilizer savings in the soil that should be used amid troubled moments like this one,” said Antonio Galvan, Aprosoja’s head. “We have been telling farmers to not buy anything at abusive prices.”

It’s not just crops. In Chicago and surrounding suburbs, Joe Fontana owns five locations of the spicy-chicken restaurant Fry the Coop. Prices for chicken have been elevated since the pandemic closed meatpacking plants two years ago. Now, drought in Brazil plus war in Ukraine have boosted feed prices, pushing up chicken costs even more.

Fontana was already avoiding vegetable oils made from seeds such as canola, similar to the trendy diet from the Bitcoin community. Instead, he fries his chicken and potatoes using only beef tallow. But the cost of that fat has also surged amid issues at the slaughterhouses and soaring demand for fats and oils to produce renewable diesel.
Soaring Prices Are Changing the Way People Eat

“Since January 2021, it seems like we’ve almost doubled our costs across the board,” Fontana said. A 50-pound cube of beef tallow cost about $29 for years, but now it’s $56, he said.

He’s raised prices for his chicken sandwiches a few times already and more increases are planned, putting them above $10. Customers tell him they are delicious but expensive. “You can only charge customers a certain price when it’s fast casual,” he said. “My fear is that it’s going to get to a point where it’s the $15 sandwich.”

He’s renegotiating all of his supplier deals and creating a centralized kitchen to prepare foods such as coleslaw for all of his restaurants. Still, right now, he’s barely breaking even with labor and natural gas costs also rising sharply.

Other favorite dishes won’t be spared either. Pizza makers might start to cut the pepperoni that gets placed on a pizza by half, Rabobank protein analyst Christine McCracken said. And that’s not all.

“Keep watching bacon,” she said. “You’ll start to see food service take one strip off the sandwich.”
 
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FrancSevin

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Food shortages hit home the hardest. Most revolutions start over starvation. We can expect revolution wherever such starvation happens.

Given the news Kirk brings to the forum, we can expect revolution in one form or another this fall. Not neddesarily here in the USA but inmany nations of South America and Africa.


If it happens in the Middle east, how would we know?
 

Melensdad

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Food shortages hit home the hardest. Most revolutions start over starvation. We can expect revolution wherever such starvation happens.

Given the news Kirk brings to the forum, we can expect revolution in one form or another this fall. Not neddesarily here in the USA but inmany nations of South America and Africa.


If it happens in the Middle east, how would we know?
If you look at the supply chains then the broken chains are where we could see revolutions.

North and South America will face higher prices but there will be food.

Ukraine & Russia supply much of the grains, seeds and cooking oils used in the middle east, in some parts of Africa and to a lesser degree in China. But China cannot feed its own population so if their supply from Russia breaks then China will be in trouble. Yemen imports 90% of their food. Other nations somewhat less but are still very heavily dependent upon imported food. Some of the sub-Saharan African nations will face famine, other African nations will be reasonably fine. The so-called Arab Spring revolts/revolutions were the result of food disruptions that were far less that what is projected to happen now.

We know that Europe is no longer producing nitrogen fertilizers because the prices of Natural Gas are too high to produce the fertilizers. We know that Belarus and Russia supply a large percentage of the potash used for other fertilizers and sanctions are shutting off those supplies to many nations. The US gets ours from Canada so we don't need to worry too much. But other nations have farmers facing severe shortages of fertilizer, and on marginal lands they will not be able to grow crops. On the better land the yields will be reduced. So food supplies will be further reduced.

I think we are looking at a 5+ year disruption in the food supply, largely because of the problems with the nitrogen fertilizer supply lines. The current US policies literally are designed to break the natural gas supply lines. The infrastructure will need to be rebuilt and we can't do that in a year, probably not 2. So 5 years could stretch to 10 years.

People who want to moderate the effects of inflation should have already purchased a good bit of food. But it is not too late to stock up on more. It will delay and displace some of the inevitable.
 

FrancSevin

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"Stocking up on food" is a good plan for the short term. But it won't get one thru five years of shortages.

With half our population in High rises and Condos, Victory Gardens will not be a solution for many. They might want to make friends with some country hicks. You know those Trumpster's outside of the city limits who know hard common work and how to grow food.
 
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300 H and H

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With half our population in High rises and Condos,
And there in lies the problem. When you live in a bubble you don't even get a chance to miss the tree's for the forest. :unsure:

Even simple tasks like being able to take a piss outdoors in a 45 mph wind without getting it all over one self would be a challenge for these Urban folks. :pat::yankchain:
 

chowderman

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well, all the radical ideologues who thunderously insist we must go to organic farming to avoid killing the planet - eliminating all fossil fuel products, like fertilizers....
are shortly going to find out how starvation affects global climate change.

I've gardened organically since the 1970's - using my grandfather's first edition of Enc. of Organic Gardening.
it's nice - especially when you find your kids picking / eating peas right off the vine . . . or munching on just rinsed off / just pulled carrots . . . but it is seriously more labor intensive and seriously lower yields.
 

Melensdad

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And the high prices are already hitting the middle east.

Riots by summer?


UN Warns Middle East At "Breaking Point" As Food Prices Hit Alarming Highs​

Could it only be a matter of time before food riots erupt across the Middle East?
Even before Russia invaded Ukraine and disrupted the global food supply, menacing food inflation ripped around the world, crushing emerging market households the hardest.​
. . .​
WFP said millions of Middle Eastern and North African families struggle to buy even the most basic foods to keep hunger at bay.​
"People's resilience is at a breaking point. This crisis is creating shock waves in the food markets that touch every home in this region. No one is spared," Corinne Fleischer, WFP Regional Director said.​
For example, the cost of basic food for a family in Lebanon registered an annual increase of 351%, the highest in the region, followed by Syria with a near 100% rise, and Yemen at 81%. These three countries are incredibly reliant on food imports and prone to currency depreciation. A devastating drought has reduced Syria's annual wheat production, while Ukraine's grain exports have ceased. . .​
 

Melensdad

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Farmers are switching crops from Corn to Soybeans becasue of fertilizer costs, there are ramifications for doing that.


"Fertilizer Is Out Of Control" - US Farmers Ditch Corn For Soy To Save On Costs

Fertilizer prices are at record highs following Russia's invasion of Ukraine puts massive pressure on American farmers to transition to crops that need less fertilizer.
A Bloomberg survey found that farmers will plant 2 million more acres of soybeans and about 2 million fewer of corn. That's because soybeans require very little fertilizer versus corn.
Farmer Tim Gregerson of Omaha, Nebraska, said he'll plant more soybeans this year because "fertilizer is out of control." He said fertilizer prices spiked even before the Russian invasion, and it was then he decided to reduce the corn-to-soy ratio to about 50-50 this upcoming growing season.
On top of soaring fertilizer prices, he told Bloomberg, diesel, tractors, machine parts, feed for livestock, herbicide, and seed costs, and just about everything to do with farming are astronomically higher this year.
Farmer John Gilbert near Iowa Falls, Iowa, said his decision was made in January when fertilizer prices spiked.
A gauge of prices for US Gulf Coast Urea, US Cornbelt Potash, and NOLA Barge DAP, called the Green Markets North American Fertilizer Price Index, is up 43% since the Russian invasion and up 233% to $1,270 per ton since the start of the 2021 growing season.
The rising cost of natural gas, the primary input for most nitrogen fertilizer, has been one reason for rising fertilizer prices. Also, global supplies are expected to tighten as Russia will limit fertilizer exports to 'unfriendly' countries. Russia is one of the biggest exporters globally -- the US just so happens to be a large importer of nitrogen and potash from Russia.
Gregerson said due to global disruptions, "getting fertilizer is going to be more and more of a problem for the world in general." In return, farmers will transition to crops that use less fertilizer -- and it will be done globally.
In central Illinois, farmer Kenneth Hartman said he might not get much income off the soybeans but won't have the expenses of planting corn.
 

mla2ofus

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Maybe it will come down to whether to use corn for food or ethanol. I know this will PO H&H but IMO ethanol is a waste of resources and is nothing but a govt. mandated and subsidized boondoggle.
 

Melensdad

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Maybe it will come down to whether to use corn for food or ethanol. I know this will PO H&H but IMO ethanol is a waste of resources and is nothing but a govt. mandated and subsidized boondoggle.
E15 gas blend used to be 20+ cents cheaper per gallon at the pump, now it is the same price. No reason to even make it anymore.
 

300 H and H

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Ethanol is ok (I've never really been on that band wagon) only when corn is in surplus. But at the present time and circumstances
it is questionable. It is present in gasoline supplies because of reduced Ozone emissions over straight gasoline.
I am hauling corn to market shortly. In my case it will be made mostly into Busch Beer. Rarely do I sell to an ethanol plant.
It is what I wish to do, and most times it pays better, but the quality standards are food grade so it should.
 

mla2ofus

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That is only true in my world if something is unused for an extended period of time.
Regular gas will do the same eventually.
Since I switched to non ethanol gas I've has zero carb problems on all my small engines that sit unused trhu the summer or winter months. That also includes 2 two stroke engines. Yes, any gas will eventually evaporate in a carb, especially in hot weather, leaving varnish behind. Ethanol just seems to accelerate the process. If it sits unused for a long time empty the gas tank and start and run it 'til it dies. JMHO.
 

chowderman

Well-known member
thinking back to the early ethanol days . . . some cars had big issues - their fuel systems were sensitive to water, and ethanol sucks water out of the air - then things corrode. my mother had a Mercury that the ethanol/water rusted thru the gas tank.

I have a pre-China JD, and an pre-China Troybuilt rototiller that have no issues with ethanol in the gas - but a China built snowblower corroded the carb first year - had to replace the carb.... there's like one station in our area that has no-ethanol gasoline.
 

m1west

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With the winter gas and ethanol, the gas pressure boiling point is very low. basically will boil at room temperature, then the ethanol makes a lean mixture. I have a couple older carbureted vehicles. On warm days in the winter, just like when I drove it to the cabin make a horrible driving experience. Erratic idol at the stop light, lean popping on take off and hard to restart when shut down and re started, like at the gas station. Almost un drivable.
 

Melensdad

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And now US farmers are getting hit with DIESEL prices that are exceeding $6 per gallon and some can't afford to put fuel in their tractors. No fuel = No planting. No planting = No harvesting. No harvesting = No food.


Record diesel prices are crushing Pa. farmers, lawmakers told

Jun 14, 2022 at 5:30 pm
HARRISBURG — A Lehigh County farmer recently called Kyle Kotzmoyer and said something like “I’ve got a tractor hooked up to my corn planter out here, no diesel fuel, and I can’t afford to get any.”
. . . the crushing reality of record diesel fuel prices is pushing farmers to the brink and may affect food availability.
“We have reached that point to where it is very close to being a sinking ship,” Kotzmoyer, a legislative affairs specialist for the Pennsylvania Farm Bureau, testified to state lawmakers Tuesday. “We are teetering on the edge right now.”
His appearance came in the third hearing on soaring inflation held by the House Republican Policy Committee.
The overall testimony suggested the dire farm situation will exacerbate the rate of already steep food price increases. The federal government reported last week that food prices in May were 10.1% higher than a year earlier, with the rate of increase gaining speed.
After the hearing — in a phone interview — Kotzmoyer made clear that food may not be as available because of the fuel price surge.
“One, if they can’t afford to put it in the ground,” he said of farming using diesel-thirsty machinery. “Or, two, if they can’t afford to take it out.”
Average diesel fuel prices Tuesday in Pennsylvania were $6.19 a gallon, about 75% higher than a year ago, according to AAA. . .
Story continues at the link above
 

Melensdad

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And ZeroHedge has a summary of the situation with farmers and diesel:

"We Are Teetering On The Edge": Food Shortage Worries Mount As Farms "Crushed" By Record Diesel Prices

There's nothing like the sweet smell of Building Back Better...
The situation looks as though it will continue to push food prices higher, after the government reported that food prices in May were 10.1% higher than last year. . .
The PA average for diesel is now $6.19 per gallon, up about 75% from a year ago . . .
One farmer who works on about 3,500 acres burns through about 2,000 gallons of diesel per month, he said. “If the farmers cannot get crops out of the ground, then there is not food on the shelves.”
 

300 H and H

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Bob

The real issue that is being ignored besides fuel is Diesel exhaust fluid. DEF..
All current Diesels require it. None will run with out it.
Much easier to create an artificial shortages of not just food but everything by limiting DEF.

If I had time I would check that out.
 
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