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Gas Mileage? Diesels?

The Tourist

The Tourist

Banned
I've never been in a snow-cat. In fact, I've only been on a snowmobile twice.

Some of these machines look quite large, and have very big tracks front and rear.

Granted, some have to push plows and pull heavy weight in the dead of winter, but how much fuel does one of these bad boys consume? Does it matter if it's a diesel?
 
My Snow Trac's, all 11, big engines and little engines got about 4 miles to the gallon, my big tucker 443 got around 4 or 5 MPG. The Trac Master got 3 MPG. My little Bombi got about 6 MPG, and I never checked the milage on my Muskeg carrier. The big Nodwell I drove in alaska got less than a mile to a gallon, and the Rolligon, which ran on tires got less that a mile on 6 gallons of fuel for each of 2 engines! They are all gas guzzlers. This was always the problem for millitary tracked vehicles. APC personel carriers and Tanks with often 900HP engines get less that a mile on 10 gallons of fuel. One of the ways we were able to starve Hitler out was to cut off his fuel supply to his mechanized armor.
 
And that's why I asked the question.

It doesn't look like there's anything "bulbous" in the shape of these vehicles like a fuel bladder, it looks like the inside of one seats several people, and it doesn't look like many pull extra fuel.

In a situation where the cats go out into remote areas it would appear as if they have to stay pretty close to home.

How do you guys do it?
 
Because of the average speed is low, one can only cover so much ground in a day. Most of my trips average about 24 miles in a day. The fartherest I ever went in a day, was from West Yellowstone to Old Faithful and back, 38 miles each way, 76 Miles total. This was a 10 hour day. In the Arctic it took 6 hours for us to go 20 miles in a caravan or rolligons. >
Rolligon.jpg>
This is one of six Rolligon's that I rode from Badalmi to Prudhoe in, at about 40 below. Originally built by Bechtel, at a price of 1.7 Million each. Powered by (2) diesel V8's. Carries over a thousand gallons of fuel. (4) 55 gallon drums will fit on each fender in the place of a regular "GI" gas can. Top speed is about 10MPH. CATCO, the current owner of the rolligon patents, builds one new machine a year, and they all live in Deadhorse Alaska. They are one of the only machines that are approved to run on the tundra without building an Ice Road and can carry substaintial loads.
 
The Tourist said:
In a situation where the cats go out into remote areas it would appear as if they have to stay pretty close to home.

How do you guys do it?
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There is a thread here somewhere (with pictures) about my misadventures where I went out on a nice sunny winter day, driving along the river bordering my property out into the woods, playing in the fields and then coming home again. I was out alone, without a radio or phone, for several hours.

A half tank of fuel got me all the way out there, but only most of the way home. :whistling:

It was a cold walk home, fortunately it was just about a mile back to the house and it was dark by the time I got back. Walking back through the fields in deep snow with 5 gallons of gas is no fun. Fortunately I don't live in a remote area so there was nothing life threatening about my stupidity. Some of the folks here are in seriously isolated areas and running out of fuel for them could lead to a life threatening situation.

Our snowcats are fun toys, but the conditions we operate them in can be seriously dangerous.
 
B_Skurka said:
Some of the folks here are in seriously isolated areas and running out of fuel for them could lead to a life threatening situation...fun toys.
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I know that 'feeling' as new EFI Harleys have no reserve tank.

The sport looks like fun, at least the little cats that seem more designed for leisure.

But truth be told, I would construct some "little niche' onboard" for a cheese sandwich and a gas can before I hit the high country.

I really liked that little sno-cat with the custom interior. You have to hang chrome somewhere...
 
My longest trip last year was 51 miles in to one of our remote sites. I broke trail the entire way and consumed almost 30 gallons! Coming out I burned about 10 gallons. I drove back out on my original trail. That was a 20 hour day. I believe it took me over 10 hours to go the 51 miles. Total for the day was 102 miles! Thats allot in any tracked rig.
 
The Tourist said:
The sport looks like fun, at least the little cats that seem more designed for leisure.
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Well I don't really know of too many that are/were designed for leisure. I think many of us use the older units for that purpose, but these things were really designed as workhorses. The origins of my Snow Trac go back to rural Sweden and were used for winter hunting and winter transport. Commercially they were used for snow grooming in the Olympics, as search and rescue vehicles, winter ambulances, utility companies in Canada and Scotland used them for remote access. Snow Tracs were used in Antarctica at the Scott base and others and they were adapted by the British military and used to patrol the Norwegian mountain border areas under NATO auspices during the cold war. Small as they are, a Snow Trac will seat 7, haul a half ton of cargo and pull a similar amount.

Thiokol and Tucker had similar commercial, expedition and military histories. Probably the one snowcat that was used more for personal use than any others were the Kristi snowcats, and that may explain why so few were built?
 
Wisconsin got over 100" of snow, and this year is targeted to break that record.

We had a serious Interstate shut-down last year that stranded 100 cars. Emergency supplies were ferried in by snowmobiles. The head of our State Patrol was lucky to keep his job.

My thinking is that not everyone benefits from a snowmobile. Let's face it, they seem to build them for performance. A lot of good that is going to do for older folks or the injured.

To me, a snowmobile is just a 'winter motorcycle.' I see most of them parked behind snow covered taverns.

I've often wondered when some entrepreneur is really going to build a real "mobile" for snow.

And I believe that day is coming, albeit slowly. For example, we now have plug-in electric vests for motorcycles. Harley just built a commercial three wheeler.

The idea of safety, comfort and snowstorms seems to be coming together.

Now granted, today my vision here is a crackpot idea. Kind of like a SmartCar with tracks and heater. But the idea of firing up a realistic city-sno-cat you operate like a small winter car would definitely aid many folks.

As the population ages...
 
I have an IMP that I have driven about 80 miles in one day out to my cabin and back, it took about thirty gallons of gas for the round, so that is about 2.5 MPG. ON the trips where the snow was deep and pulling a load, I took that to get out the first forty miles. Normally I go out and spend a few days there before coming back, just the drive out will beat you up pretty good if the trail is hard packed and rough, not beat up as if you were cutting firewood all day, but as if someone was beating on you with a hammer all day all over your body... Your arms get a bit tired of the pull steering when you spend a lot of time darting in and around the trees on the trails. Other rigs ride like a car, but they cost ten times as much too and are normally "shop queens" (ride for an hour, work on it for two).

If I was on a hard pack flat trail/road and could get up to about 18 MPH, instead of the 8 to 10 I get on a the normal trail, I would double my mileage when running the engine at about the same RPM but in a few hears higher. You don't have the friction of dragging the tracks though the snow/mud/grass and life it good...

Much depends on the trail conditions, load and terrain. A diesel verses gas would get better mileage due to a higher lower end torque on the same size diesel, which allows the engine to use lower RPM and go in a higher gear. If I found a diesel that I liked, I would put one in the Imp to replace the gas engine. But the gas engine runs very well and that is a hard thing to change out when it isn't broken....
 
Tourist,
The description you are painting is a 4x4 with a set of Max Tracks. For city or town that gets allot of snow I feel they are the perfect combination. Back country use would be limited to firm hard pack or low levels of powder. But great for the city for sure. Anything approaching deep fluff you need a Snowcat.
 
There is no doubt in my mind that you guys are right. I was thinking out loud. In other words, why does the current product line need to follow the idea of your work cats?

Yes, you guys need working cats, or in some areas nothing is ever going to be repaired or transported. Emergency services are going to always need you guys.

Today in the Madison area we have several inches of slush on the street, a light rain, falling temperatures and the threat of more snow. Traffic is about to come to a halt.

Several years ago, my boss took a financial team to northern Wisconsin to see about buying out an electronics engineering firm. We took the company van, and got plastered with a snow storm long before we hit the northern part of the state!

As we pulled in for gas, we noticed that the locals had all switched over to snowmobiles, and it seemed the local law enforcement either looked the other way or permitted the use in storms. Folks were going to the store, returning from work and doing last minute errands on snowmobiles on city streets.

I envisioned some form of covered, track-driven, golf cart.

I was wondering about fuel costs as things progress this year. Yikes, it looks like cats eat more fuel than a Dodge Hemi.
 
The Tourist said:
As we pulled in for gas, we noticed that the locals had all switched over to snowmobiles, and it seemed the local law enforcement either looked the other way or permitted the use in storms. Folks were going to the store, returning from work and doing last minute errands on snowmobiles on city streets.

I envisioned some form of covered, track-driven, golf cart.

I was wondering about fuel costs as things progress this year. Yikes, it looks like cats eat more fuel than a Dodge Hemi.
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Well a few things. There are new snowcats that are roughly the equivalent in size, convenience of a modern well decked out mini-van. They are very expensive, $80,000 is not unreasonable for a base price. Second, these things are comparatively slow, not suited for longer trips but suited for around town, however the town roads are usually the very first to be opened. A track drive golf cart would work, but only if the engine was bumped up in power. There are conversion tracks that can be put onto a Kubota RTV1000 or Polaris Ranger or similar unit.
 
Ski Doo Elite.

Yes, that's what I envisioned. And for the northern parts of Wisconsin it would make a good deal of sense.

Here's my thinking. Not eveyone needs a heavy four-wheeler like an F-150 for the entire year. However, we do have five months of snow and storms and folks still have to go out to work and for errands.

If, as your comments imply, a traditional cat would just be too much to afford for extended daily use.

I'm surprised this Elite isn't more popular.
 
Back to the question at hand....
I operate a snowcat on more of a commercial scale than the guys here with personal cats. I put in long hours on a regular basis in a snowcat with a 174hp cummins deisel pulling a drag full of snow. The machine I run has a 79 gallon fuel tank. our machine also has a 30 gallon long range tank. With both tanks full, I can run 120 miles without refueling. But that's in 3-4 ft of fresh powder pulling a 3400lb drag full of snow at roughly 7-9mph
 
B_Skurka said:
<snip>
Probably the one snowcat that was used more for personal use than any others were the Kristi snowcats, and that may explain why so few were built?
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Weren't you corrected on this once before? :rolleyes: :poke: As seen on the 'other' site, the far majority of Kristis were sold to the FAA, police departments, water departments, ranching concerns, ski resorts, etc. Several are still in use by such agencies and companies.

I suspect, but have no evidence, that the reasons contributing to the relatively low production numbers include the unusual looks, customer fear of fiberglass, and poor business acumens of the company owner(s). Too bad, as they were the most advanced cat out there. :thumb:
 
The Tourist said:
However, we do have five months of snow and storms and folks still have to go out to work and for errands.
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Chico, do you actually live in Madison, Wisconsin??

I would say that there is no more than approximately 24 HOURS (not even consecutive) per year that I couldn't take my front drive VW Jetta anywhere I want in the state of Wisconsin. I have never missed an entire day of work due to weather in my life. I may have been a couple of hours late, but that's it.

An Elite is a toy. It isn't even as useful as a Kawasaki Mule, Polaris Ranger or similar UTV. Like a snowmobile, it's useful season could be measured in weeks at best, not months (again in Wisconsin).

This is why these vehicles (snow-cats) are not more popular with the general public. They are not needed by the masses. They are very limited use, specialty vehicles.





As a side note, did anyone here know that Honda is now making a UTV?? Big Red. I wish I had the money, I could use one of these... :whistling:
 
I live just outside of Madison, but the area isn't the issue, it's been the conditions.

Usually, we have very good crews keeping the roads open. Many times I don't even use four-wheel drive.

The reason I make the comment was our last year coupled with the first part of this year.

Normally we get 44 inches of snow per winter. Last year we got 100. We're over that amount per day now. We've had ice, sleet, rain, fog. And as I stated, we had that political mess from last year.

Madison is in the southern part of the state. You go north and the issue gets worse.

One thing that always happens in the early part of the season is that peole "forget" how to drive in snow. It is not uncommon for numerous accidents and roll-overs to occur during the first storm.

And as the 'boomers age, our skill is going to diminish. Now granted, you seem to know how to react in this weather, I drive slow. In fact, my wife and I carefully plan excursions in bad weather.

But driving in the northern states is a fact of life. I was just opining on how to make it better. That, and I thought that a smaller tracked vehicle might even save fuel.
 
The #1 problem is stupid drivers. Hauling ass when there is clearly ice on the raod is just being stupid as hell! Also driving when you have no business on the road in said conditons. Ive been towing snowcats now for 10 years in winter conditions. Some times Im very lucky and am able to drive under better conditions. Sometimes I have to drive or get stuck in the middle of horrible conditions. With proper tires, chains and a good 4x4 you will beable to get through just about anything as long as the roads are open. If I can help it I will not drive under Icey conditions period. The last time I did was when I was 100 miles from no where and was already on the road. When that happens just take it easy and keep it slow. If the roads are closed then stay home or get a motel if possible. Always keep an Emergency kit in the car to last you 72 hours in case you do get stuck under the worst conditions. Stay warm and wait for help to come to you.
 
True story. Ice seems to be the big problem around here this year.

One of the busiest commuter areas is Madison's Beltline, and the four miles of Interstate 39/94 that connects it to Hwy 151.

Just about the time you think you're doing really well, you find a truck just like yours flipped over in the medium and crushed like a pop can.
 
Snowcat Operations said:
The #1 problem is stupid drivers. Hauling ass when there is clearly ice on the raod is just being stupid as hell! Also driving when you have no business on the road in said conditons. Ive been towing snowcats now for 10 years in winter conditions. Some times Im very lucky and am able to drive under better conditions. Sometimes I have to drive or get stuck in the middle of horrible conditions. With proper tires, chains and a good 4x4 you will beable to get through just about anything as long as the roads are open. If I can help it I will not drive under Icey conditions period. The last time I did was when I was 100 miles from no where and was already on the road. When that happens just take it easy and keep it slow. If the roads are closed then stay home or get a motel if possible. Always keep an Emergency kit in the car to last you 72 hours in case you do get stuck under the worst conditions. Stay warm and wait for help to come to you.
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Question for Mike and others who drive regularly in snow conditions.
If you have 4wd do you always run with it on? Is there a top speed that you should never exceed in 4wd? Do you use 4wd when towing, on dry or snowy roads?
 
Lets see... "Drive Regularly on Ice and Snow" >
It's 60 miles on ice roads each way to and from Endicott. Made that 120mile round trip 5 times so far this hitch. Never had to put it in 4 wheel. >
As a full time inspector for the Trans Alaska Pipeline I drove up to 2000 miles a week on the frozen ice covered "Haul Road", ending up in Fairbanks which is like an Ice Rink half the year. Like today it's about 40 below there. In "Squarebanks" we left the trucks in 4 wheel for months at a time. Up here on the "Slope" we don't. As a rule you want to take it out of 4 wheel as soon as you are on surfaces that provide good traction. If you don't it tears up the tires, differentials, "U-Joints", and the locking hubs. On "Black Ice" above minus 32, a truck will actually stop better in 4 wheel than in 2 wheel because it tends to defeat the anti skid and slow down all the wheels at the same time. Ice isn't slick below -32.... well sort of. What makes an Ice Skate glide along so smoothly is actually the friction causes a thin layer of water to form, so the skate is hydroplaning on water, even though it's only thousandts of an inch thick. Below -32 Ice skates don't work so good. Likewise, on Ice Roads, beolw a certain temperature there is outstanding traction. This probably will not come into play where you live.
 
There is no "Top Speed". Some race cars have full time 4 wheel drive. But again you wouldn't want to do it on good surfaces.
Towing: You tend to use 4 wheel alot towing. Because of the ease of Jacknifing in Snow and Ice it is highly recomended, and so is the use of chains on the trailer. More than once I and my fellow snow cat owners have had to take the snow cat off the trailer, to use it to rescue the now stuck truck! A Snow Cat will see you better thru times of No Winch, than a Winch will see you thru times of no Snow Cat.
 
Lyndon said:
A Snow Cat will see you better thru times of No Winch, than a Winch will see you thru times of no Snow Cat.
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Good info Lyndon and a good quote to. :D :thumb: :beer:
 
I got called away by my inspection duties, but just to clarify: If you took your 4 wheel vehicle, or even a toy one, and rolled it on an Ink Pad, then drove it around a circle on a piece of papper, the 4 wheels inscribe 4 distinctly different size circles. This means they actually travel different distances. As they are geared and shafted together this doesn't work so well. A 4 wheel drive vehicle will buck and snort and 'hop', and immediately let you know that it doesn't like it. It actually wants to twist the frame of the vehicle, which leads to the hopping. On pavement if you try going straight it's fine, but take a sharp turn and it will actually stop the vehicle. This stress on the U-Joints and especially the locking hubs will eventually lead to their failure. The Alyeska Pipeline maintenance folks have to change out about a dozen stripped out locking hubs a year. It it doesn't matter weather it's Ford, Chevy or Dodge. >
Many SUV's and some years of Blazers, and other 'Full Time 4 Wheel Drive Vehicles' have 3 differential to overcome this. The engine drives into a differential that splits the drive to the front and rear differentials. >
Unimogs, and various custom Rock Crawlers and beefed up 4 wheel drives have a feature that defeats the Differential. Due to the afore mentioned physics, they cannot be turned while the differentials are locked up. It works in mud and snow where the wheels can slip, but try it on pavement. It drives straight fine but is almost impossible to steer.
 
Doc said:
Question for Mike and others who drive regularly in snow conditions.
If you have 4wd do you always run with it on? Is there a top speed that you should never exceed in 4wd? Do you use 4wd when towing, on dry or snowy roads?
Click to expand...

Normally I don't use the fourwheel drive on the highway if I don't have to, I just drive slower and get better gas mileage anyway. When I get to Fairbanks I put it into 4WD because everyone spins out at the lights to make sure the road is highly polished ice when it snows.

Since I have to repair my own systems as they break, I use the 4WD sparingly when the roads are snow covered, and I drive slowly (like 55 instead of 65). What people don't grasp about 4WD and 2WD is that 2 x 0 = 0 just like 4 x 0 = 0. If you don't drive responsibly, the fact that you have 4WD just means that you will go farther out into the ditch before you are stuck...

I have been driving in Alaska well over forty years and the only problems I have had is with those that don't pay attention to road conditions or have defective genes and can't grasp the fact that I use to make a good living by towing guys like them out of ditches....

When it is -45 like this morning, the roads are almost as good to drive on as the dry asphalt is. When you get into the 20's and 30's, that is when the ice has water on it from the salt and such and is really bad. The fact that when I left the house, the tires had very flat spots on them from being parked and cold, it took about three miles down the road before they quit hammering. If the cold is going to be like today, I will engage the 4WD when I park the car/truck while the system is warm. At subzero temps, the wheel bearing grease can be like glue and when you try to back up, the front wheels won't spin, so the drive tires do and you go nowhere, in 4WD it forces all the tires to turn and allows you to get going, after a few min's I disengage the system back to 2WD.

4WD has advanages if you know what they are, if not, they are just something you will spend a lot of money on getting repaired at some time sooner than later.
 
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