EV charging stations could soon outnumber Gas Stations.... but is that enough?

[Melensdad]

So this is good news for EV drivers.

But the lovely Mrs_Bob's hybrid Toyota Venza can fill up at a gas station in about 3 minutes, sometime less. My gas only Honda Ridgeline, with larger tank, can take 3 to 5 minutes.

This is an HONEST QUESTION, how long does it take to 'fuel up' a typical EV from 20% to 100% on one of these 'DC Fast Chargers'?
Is it 5 minutes? 10 minutes? 20? 30? Longer? Seriously I don't have a clue.

But if it is longer than 5 minutes then we need at least TWICE as many DC faster charger stations (actually "cords") than we have gasoline "nozzles" to be competitive. And if it is 20 or 30minutes to charge, then we probably need a minimum of QUADRUPLE or QUINTUPLE the number to service EVs. And maybe more.

Still the more the better. Competition is good. I am concerned with the wording of the article. The article says "chargers' and refers to "stations" and that confuses me. A gas station can refuel 10 to 30 cars at one time. A typical station has 20-ish gas nozzles. So is the article saying a single charging station with 1 EV cord is similar to an entire gas station? Or is it referring to EV stations with 20-ish cords? Honestly I don't know. But I typically see a group of about a half dozen charing stations, each with 1 cord. That seems to be the equivalent of roughly 25% of 1 gas station? Now granted EVs make up a smaller % of vehicles, so fewer cords are needed ... except last time I looked (and it has been months since I did so) it took roughly 30 minutes on DC fast charger to 'fill up' an EV.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

Full Story at Bloomberg above ^^^

US Public EV Chargers Set to Surpass Gas Stations in Eight Years​

The US added about 700 new public fast-charging stations for electric cars in the second quarter, bringing the nationwide total to nearly 9,000.​

Kyle StockJuly 18, 2024 at 6:00 AM CDT


On April 16, piloting an electric vehicle through the north of North Dakota became far less fraught. That’s when a new fast-charging station switched on at a Simonson Station Store gas station in Minot, close to a Red Wing boot shop.

Zero-emission drivers around El Paso, Texas can also rest easier thanks to two new stations up the road in Deming, New Mexico. So can anyone heading down the Gulf Coast by Mobile, Alabama, where a new bank of chargers started pumping electrons May 2 in Robertsdale, down the street from Buster’s Southern Pit BBQ.

America’s EV charger deserts continued to vanish in the second quarter, as a motley array of networks switched on 704 new, public fast-charging stations, an increase of 9% in three months, according to a Bloomberg Green analysis of Department of Energy data. There are now nearly 9,000 public, fast-charging sites in the US.

At the current pace, public fast-charging sites will outnumber gas stations in the US in about eight years — but charger momentum is only expected to accelerate. North American operators will spend a collective $6.1 billion on charging infrastructure this year, nearly double their 2023 investment, according to BloombergNEF estimates. That annual spend is expected to double again by 2030.

“We’re seeing demand for fast charging skyrocket,” said Sara Rafalson, executive vice president at EVgo Inc., which operates almost 1,000 stations in the US. “We’re continuing to build bigger and bigger stations because we need to keep up with that demand.”

EV cords are increasingly being added by retailers eager to attract the nearly 10% of US car buyers who are plugging into battery-powered vehicles...

 

[Melensdad]

And also today...

Apparently it takes an hour to wait & charge an EV?

Full story at the link below:

Effect of EV mandates could mean drivers will wait an hour to charge their cars, research shows

The Biden administration's EV mandates will create such a large demand for charging that, to avoid hour-long wait times for EV owners, an additional 166,000 fast DC charging stations will need to be built for a cost of $3.4 billion.

justthenews.com

Effect of EV mandates could mean drivers will wait an hour to charge their cars, research shows​

The Biden administration's EV mandates will create such a large demand for charging that, to avoid hour-long wait times for EV owners, an additional 166,000 fast DC charging stations will need to be built for a cost of $3.4 billion.​

​

In the next decade, electric vehicle owners may find themselves waiting up to an hour to get a chance to charge their cars, unless the number of DC fast charging stations increases five-fold by 2050.​

​

New research by the Energy Policy Research Foundation (EPRINC), a nonpartisan, not-for profit think tank founded in 1944, finds that the United States' charging infrastructure will have to expand greatly to satisfy projected demand that will arise from all the electric vehicles that automakers will be required to produce under the recently finalized Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards.​

​

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration’s (NHTSA) CAFE standards were finalized in June, and they limit the amount of carbon dioxide a vehicle can emit per mile. Together with the Environmental Protection Agency’s tailpipe standards, which were finalized in March, the Biden administration is attempting to pressure automakers to transition their lines to EVs. . .​

 

[NorthernRedneck]

That's obviously for down in the states. Just for fun, I searched for charging stations in Ontario which gives a breakdown for each community of how many and what types of chargers are available. This is how many public charging stations are available for a city of 115000 people with a total surrounding population of less than 200000 people within an 8 hr drive either direction. Within that distance, there's only smaller communities with maybe 1 or 2 public chargers available. See the issue when the only highway either direction gets closed in the winter time due to weather or an accident (which happens every few days throughout the winter) leaving motorists stranded in their vehicles often for periods longer than 24hrs in the winter time along vast desolate stretches of highway.

Last winter, I recall when motorists were stranded in a snowstorm for 2 days only a few hours east of here due to a. A bad accident which closed the highway., and B. Weather moved in dropping a larger amount of snow. Forget about finding a hotel room.

 

[mbsieg]

I don't have a lot of time today, unfortunately. I'll try to come back tomorrow to reply more. You guys are missing one very important fact. Most people who own an EV have a gas station at their house (charger). The only time you fast charge is on a road trip. as there gets to be more and more charging stations. I find myself opportunity charging more and more and less DC fast charging. Imagine waking up every morning with a full tank.

 

[NorthernRedneck]

I don't have a lot of time today, unfortunately. I'll try to come back tomorrow to reply more. You guys are missing one very important fact. Most people who own an EV have a gas station at their house (charger). The only time you fast charge is on a road trip. as there gets to be more and more charging stations. I find myself opportunity charging more and more and less DC fast charging. Imagine waking up every morning with a full tank.

There's that too. But my question is how does that work in the summer months when we are told to not use ac at home and do everything we can to conserve hydro and still experience brown outs and full hydro interruptions lasting all day? I mean...I and many others at camp have generators to run ac and charge golf carts because of the crappy 80 year old hydro infrastructure can't even push 90v let alone 110v. We already have two huge diesel generators out hooked up to the main hydro lines near the highway running steady to pump extra hydro into the grid.

 

[mbsieg]

That's obviously for down in the states. Just for fun, I searched for charging stations in Ontario which gives a breakdown for each community of how many and what types of chargers are available. This is how many public charging stations are available for a city of 115000 people with a total surrounding population of less than 200000 people within an 8 hr drive either direction. Within that distance, there's only smaller communities with maybe 1 or 2 public chargers available. See the issue when the only highway either direction gets closed in the winter time due to weather or an accident (which happens every few days throughout the winter) leaving motorists stranded in their vehicles often for periods longer than 24hrs in the winter time along vast desolate stretches of highway.

Last winter, I recall when motorists were stranded in a snowstorm for 2 days only a few hours east of here due to a. A bad accident which closed the highway., and B. Weather moved in dropping a larger amount of snow. Forget about finding a hotel room.


View attachment 181094

I know we talked about the loop around the Great lakes. We actually considered that this summer for a vacation. In my research there's actually plenty of chargers to make the trip. This is a screenshot of just the Tesla chargers that are available to us. I was actually surprised how many there are on this trip about every 100 mi.

 

[mbsieg]

There's that too. But my question is how does that work in the summer months when we are told to not use ac at home and do everything we can to conserve hydro and still experience brown outs and full hydro interruptions lasting all day? I mean...I and many others at camp have generators to run ac and charge golf carts because of the crappy 80 year old hydro infrastructure can't even push 90v let alone 110v. We already have two huge diesel generators out hooked up to the main hydro lines near the highway running steady to pump extra hydro into the grid.

I'm sorry I really know nothing about Canada and their electrical grid. All I know is what you tell me. Yes, it sounds like they have a lot of work to do. Keep in mind I am currently and have been for the last few years charging both my EVS on a 16 amp 240 volt circuit overnight. Normally we do not put a lot of miles on, on the occasion. We do a Walmart run. That's about a 200 mile round trip. It takes a few nights to get that vehicle caught back up. But if your commute is under 100 mi a day, you could easily charge your vehicle with a 16 amp 240 volt (3840 watts) charger overnight.
Imagine two space heaters. That would be pretty close a little under.

 

[mbsieg]

So this is good news for EV drivers.

But the lovely Mrs_Bob's hybrid Toyota Venza can fill up at a gas station in about 3 minutes, sometime less. My gas only Honda Ridgeline, with larger tank, can take 3 to 5 minutes.

This is an HONEST QUESTION, how long does it take to 'fuel up' a typical EV from 20% to 100% on one of these 'DC Fast Chargers'?
Is it 5 minutes? 10 minutes? 20? 30? Longer? Seriously I don't have a clue.

But if it is longer than 5 minutes then we need at least TWICE as many DC faster charger stations (actually "cords") than we have gasoline "nozzles" to be competitive. And if it is 20 or 30minutes to charge, then we probably need a minimum of QUADRUPLE or QUINTUPLE the number to service EVs. And maybe more.

Still the more the better. Competition is good. I am concerned with the wording of the article. The article says "chargers' and refers to "stations" and that confuses me. A gas station can refuel 10 to 30 cars at one time. A typical station has 20-ish gas nozzles. So is the article saying a single charging station with 1 EV cord is similar to an entire gas station? Or is it referring to EV stations with 20-ish cords? Honestly I don't know. But I typically see a group of about a half dozen charing stations, each with 1 cord. That seems to be the equivalent of roughly 25% of 1 gas station? Now granted EVs make up a smaller % of vehicles, so fewer cords are needed ... except last time I looked (and it has been months since I did so) it took roughly 30 minutes on DC fast charger to 'fill up' an EV.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

Full Story at Bloomberg above ^^^

US Public EV Chargers Set to Surpass Gas Stations in Eight Years​

The US added about 700 new public fast-charging stations for electric cars in the second quarter, bringing the nationwide total to nearly 9,000.​

Kyle StockJuly 18, 2024 at 6:00 AM CDT


On April 16, piloting an electric vehicle through the north of North Dakota became far less fraught. That’s when a new fast-charging station switched on at a Simonson Station Store gas station in Minot, close to a Red Wing boot shop.

Zero-emission drivers around El Paso, Texas can also rest easier thanks to two new stations up the road in Deming, New Mexico. So can anyone heading down the Gulf Coast by Mobile, Alabama, where a new bank of chargers started pumping electrons May 2 in Robertsdale, down the street from Buster’s Southern Pit BBQ.

America’s EV charger deserts continued to vanish in the second quarter, as a motley array of networks switched on 704 new, public fast-charging stations, an increase of 9% in three months, according to a Bloomberg Green analysis of Department of Energy data. There are now nearly 9,000 public, fast-charging sites in the US.

At the current pace, public fast-charging sites will outnumber gas stations in the US in about eight years — but charger momentum is only expected to accelerate. North American operators will spend a collective $6.1 billion on charging infrastructure this year, nearly double their 2023 investment, according to BloombergNEF estimates. That annual spend is expected to double again by 2030.

“We’re seeing demand for fast charging skyrocket,” said Sara Rafalson, executive vice president at EVgo Inc., which operates almost 1,000 stations in the US. “We’re continuing to build bigger and bigger stations because we need to keep up with that demand.”

EV cords are increasingly being added by retailers eager to attract the nearly 10% of US car buyers who are plugging into battery-powered vehicles...

The answer is unless you were on a road trip, you don't need a fast charger. Or in my opinion, if you don't have a way to charge it at home, you should not own an EV. How many of us actually go on long trips repeatedly year-round ? Most of my miles are the bi-weekly trips to Walmart 200 MI trips to see my mother-in-law by my wife, 350 mi. ECT ECT

You should never be charging at a DC fast charger to 100%. That would be a last resort if there's not another DC fast charger in range which is getting less and less in this country as they build out the charging system. It takes just as much time to go from 10% to 80% as it does to go from 80% to 100%. I have gotten into a groove where I charge only what I need plus a little bit extra to get to the next charger on long trips. I know this is not the typical way of a ice vehicle but it is faster with EVS. The longer I own, the more I learn. 10% to 80% is going to take you roughly 20 to 30 minutes. That varies by vehicle a lot. There are still a lot of very slow charging EVS being sold. Uneducated people and salesmen need to be educated before they purchase.
As technology advances this time frame drops.

I have learned I actually enjoy the 150 to 200 mile stops. I have rheumatoid arthritis have had for years. It gets me out of the car every 3 to 4 hours and gives me a reason to walk around. If you're honest with yourself, you plug in the vehicle you walk to the bathroom walk back. Check the vehicle and wait an extra 5 to 10 minutes. It's done. It honestly does not add that much time to a trip. Yes, I know the road trip Rambo's need to be able to drive a thousand miles without stopping. That's not me and I don't want to travel that way.

 

[mbsieg]

I will add into this thread. That I am appalled at what it costs to DC fast charge. There are still a few stations here and there where it is reasonable and cost less than getting gas. But that is getting less and less. If it was not for the cheapness of charging at home, EVS would not even be a consideration for me.

 

[Melensdad]

. . . Or in my opinion, if you don't have a way to charge it at home, you should not own an EV . . .

. . . if your commute is under 100 mi a day, you could easily charge your vehicle with a 16 amp 240 volt (3840 watts) charger overnight.
Imagine two space heaters. That would be pretty close a little under.

I think this was what held me back from an EV and moved me to a hybrid

I plugged in my mileage into the (at the time) Hyundai electric vehicle website to see what vehicle they would recommend for me. They literally said NONE.

But all that said, it does not address my primary questions in the first post. How long does it actually take to charge from 20% to 100% and Is the article comparing gas stations, with approximately 20 nozzles, that can fill a typical car in 5 minutes, with a single charge point cord?

I'd also point out my observation is that MOST residents who live in Chicago in either high or low rise rentals or condos have no access to private charging so the only option will be public chargers. Seems like urban dwellers are at a serious disadvantage

 

[mbsieg]

I think this was what held me back from an EV and moved me to a hybrid

I plugged in my mileage into the (at the time) Hyundai electric vehicle website to see what vehicle they would recommend for me. They literally said NONE.

But all that said, it does not address my primary questions in the first post. How long does it actually take to charge from 20% to 100% and Is the article comparing gas stations, with approximately 20 nozzles, that can fill a typical car in 5 minutes, with a single charge point cord?

There are so many variables. What vehicle? A Chevy bolt. They can only charge at 50 KW? A. VW id4? Ect ECT.
Both my Fords are pretty equal in charging times, the Mach e has a smaller battery but does not charge quite as fast. As I said in my prior post 20 to 30 minutes to do 10 to 80%. 80% to 100 % can take another 20-30 minutes. But as I said in the prior post, you should never be charging to 100% at a DC fast charger. In fact, electrify America in California has been limiting people 's charging to 85%.

Trying to explain why the battery charges slower at a higher rate of charge. The analogy of a sports stadium is how it was explained to me. To fill the stadium to 80% capacity is easy and quick. Grab a seat sit down. Once the stadium is 80% full you have to look for a seat. It's not near as easy. Just to plop down you have to jump over people split your group.. That is the reason why the charge rate or the people in this instance slow down.

I'd also point out my observation is that MOST residents who live in Chicago in either high or low rise rentals or condos have no access to private charging so the only option will be public chargers. Seems like urban dwellers are at a serious disadvantage

I agree with this statement.

 

[FrancSevin]

I think this was what held me back from an EV and moved me to a hybrid

I plugged in my mileage into the (at the time) Hyundai electric vehicle website to see what vehicle they would recommend for me. They literally said NONE.

But all that said, it does not address my primary questions in the first post. How long does it actually take to charge from 20% to 100% and Is the article comparing gas stations, with approximately 20 nozzles, that can fill a typical car in 5 minutes, with a single charge point cord?

I'd also point out my observation is that MOST residents who live in Chicago in either high or low rise rentals or condos have no access to private charging so the only option will be public chargers. Seems like urban dwellers are at a serious disadvantage

Ironically, it is the urban drivers who would benefit most from owning an EV.

 

[300 H and H]

Ironically, it is the urban drivers who would benefit most from owning an EV.

That is exactly what a city is. A point of source of air pollution.
This should be obvious.

 

[FrancSevin]

So this is good news for EV drivers.

But the lovely Mrs_Bob's hybrid Toyota Venza can fill up at a gas station in about 3 minutes, sometime less. My gas only Honda Ridgeline, with larger tank, can take 3 to 5 minutes.

This is an HONEST QUESTION, how long does it take to 'fuel up' a typical EV from 20% to 100% on one of these 'DC Fast Chargers'?
Is it 5 minutes? 10 minutes? 20? 30? Longer? Seriously I don't have a clue.

But if it is longer than 5 minutes then we need at least TWICE as many DC faster charger stations (actually "cords") than we have gasoline "nozzles" to be competitive. And if it is 20 or 30minutes to charge, then we probably need a minimum of QUADRUPLE or QUINTUPLE the number to service EVs. And maybe more.

Still the more the better. Competition is good. I am concerned with the wording of the article. The article says "chargers' and refers to "stations" and that confuses me. A gas station can refuel 10 to 30 cars at one time. A typical station has 20-ish gas nozzles. So is the article saying a single charging station with 1 EV cord is similar to an entire gas station? Or is it referring to EV stations with 20-ish cords? Honestly I don't know. But I typically see a group of about a half dozen charing stations, each with 1 cord. That seems to be the equivalent of roughly 25% of 1 gas station? Now granted EVs make up a smaller % of vehicles, so fewer cords are needed ... except last time I looked (and it has been months since I did so) it took roughly 30 minutes on DC fast charger to 'fill up' an EV.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

Full Story at Bloomberg above ^^^

US Public EV Chargers Set to Surpass Gas Stations in Eight Years​

The US added about 700 new public fast-charging stations for electric cars in the second quarter, bringing the nationwide total to nearly 9,000.​

Kyle StockJuly 18, 2024 at 6:00 AM CDT


On April 16, piloting an electric vehicle through the north of North Dakota became far less fraught. That’s when a new fast-charging station switched on at a Simonson Station Store gas station in Minot, close to a Red Wing boot shop.

Zero-emission drivers around El Paso, Texas can also rest easier thanks to two new stations up the road in Deming, New Mexico. So can anyone heading down the Gulf Coast by Mobile, Alabama, where a new bank of chargers started pumping electrons May 2 in Robertsdale, down the street from Buster’s Southern Pit BBQ.

America’s EV charger deserts continued to vanish in the second quarter, as a motley array of networks switched on 704 new, public fast-charging stations, an increase of 9% in three months, according to a Bloomberg Green analysis of Department of Energy data. There are now nearly 9,000 public, fast-charging sites in the US.

At the current pace, public fast-charging sites will outnumber gas stations in the US in about eight years — but charger momentum is only expected to accelerate. North American operators will spend a collective $6.1 billion on charging infrastructure this year, nearly double their 2023 investment, according to BloombergNEF estimates. That annual spend is expected to double again by 2030.

“We’re seeing demand for fast charging skyrocket,” said Sara Rafalson, executive vice president at EVgo Inc., which operates almost 1,000 stations in the US. “We’re continuing to build bigger and bigger stations because we need to keep up with that demand.”

EV cords are increasingly being added by retailers eager to attract the nearly 10% of US car buyers who are plugging into battery-powered vehicles...

Hell no! Not even close!
It takes five minutes to give my 20 miles per gallon Truck enough fuel at the pump, to go 600 miles. It takes 55 minutes to charge an EV to go 200-300 miles. At best.

Simple math says we therefore will need 10 times as many EV charging stations as fossil fuel stations.

We are a long way from there.