Electric heater for my shop

[Cowboy]

I didn't want to high jack MD's thread so I started a new one . I,m currently using a 150K torpedo using k1 kero in a very well insulated 24x32 shop , I have recentlly installed a storm door in it so I can open the window to let fresh air in and fumes out & it seems to work out great so far .

I also like to be able to look out since I have a solid steel entrance door so the storm door works great for that as well because it also has no windows in it . So far it never gets below 42 degrees in there overnight, and only takes about 30 minutes to bring it up to 70 degrees but almost an hour for it to hold close to that temp due to warming the concrete & the 2 tractors I keep inside .

At 6 to 7 bucks a gallon for K1 and the heater burn,s 1.1 gallons per hour, It is costing around 10 to 15 bucks a day for the fuel alone . Thats not really bad and it does not fume whatsoever but I am concerned about the co'2 it is putting out when I get busy and may not be paying attention . I also due a reasonable amount of painting in there is the reason for needing to have it at such warm temps .

My Question is, Finally . Does anyone know of a good quality electric heater that isn,t an energy hog ? I,m looking for a wall or ceiling mount electric heater ( blower type ) that I can use to where I can keep it at a constant 55 or 60 degrees and due away with the need for kero at all . We are total electric and I have 3 different 220 outlets out there to provide power for the heater .

Sorry for the long post , but I figure the more info I can provide the better it will help to determine the best options .

Last but not least , I'm a cheap bastard so the cheaper the better but I,m thinking of something in the $250 to $500 range . Thanks in advance for any input or advice .

 

[Melensdad]

Sorry but I'm clueless on this one and suppose it depends on your electric rates, etc but where I live if you tried to do electric heat you'd go bankrupt fast.

Electric Heat = Inefficient = $$,$$$.$$

 

[DaveNay]

Luckily for you, the math for electric heat is pretty simple since they are 100% efficient. The wattage of the heater can be directly converted to BTU's. Since you already have a good idea of the number of BTU's you are using, it should be easy to calculate the size electric heater you need. From there, you will need to know your electric rates to find out how much it will cost to run.

Let me look up some charts, and I will be back.

 

[DaveNay]

K1 Kero contains about 135000 BTU per gallon
135000BTU/gallon * 1.1 Gallon/Hour = 148500 BTU/hour (Close to the "Rating" on your heater)

148500 BTU/Hour = 43490 Watt hours

So, you would need a 44KW electric heater to equal your Kero heater.

I think you would probably be able to saw logs on your electric meter if you went that route.

 

[thcri]

Sorry but I'm clueless on this one and suppose it depends on your electric rates, etc but where I live if you tried to do electric heat you'd go bankrupt fast.

Electric Heat = Inefficient = $$,$$$.$$

Luckily for you, the math for electric heat is pretty simple since they are 100% efficient..

Even though electric is 100% efficient it seldom is the good choice. All that means is for every dollar purchased you get a dollars worth back. Most gas furnaces when you buy a dollars worth of fuel you only get 80 to 95 cents back. However the gas furnace the fuel is so much less per Btu.

As Bob said in our area electric is extremely expensive.

 

[Cowboy]

Sorry but I'm clueless on this one and suppose it depends on your electric rates, etc but where I live if you tried to do electric heat you'd go bankrupt fast.

Electric Heat = Inefficient = $$,$$$.$$

NP And thanks MD , I should have added . I am currently heating as well as cooling in the summer , a small part of 1, 24 x 32 garage , a 40 x 45 area of a 40x60 metal building , along with the house & the current 24 x 32 shop ( but no AC at this time ) as well as running all of the lights and any other equipment we use in any of the buildings or house . The electric bill for everything averages between $125 in the summer to $180 in the winter .

Our highest bill has never been over 200 bucks a month & that depends on how much we are out in the shop or the big building & what equipment I use . Thats not bad considering we pay no gas, propane or anything else other then the high cost of Kero , which is kicking my butt this year .

The house uses a water supplyed heat pump as well as we have a fireplace . The big building uses an electric only heatpump for heat and AC & everything is insulated and sealed to the hilt . The small area in the other garage used for a woodshop , uses a oil filled radiator electric heater . I hope that helps .

 

[Cowboy]

K1 Kero contains about 135000 BTU per gallon
135000BTU/gallon * 1.1 Gallon/Hour = 148500 BTU/hour (Close to the "Rating" on your heater)

148500 BTU/Hour = 43490 Watt hours

So, you would need a 44KW electric heater to equal your Kero heater.

I think you would probably be able to saw logs on your electric meter if you went that route.

Thanks Dave for taking the time to explain that . But the 150 K heater I'm using right now is really an overkill & I dont think I have ever ran it more then 3 hours out of a 24 hour period & thats only if I,m going to be painting to where I have to open the doors to let the overspray & fumes out .

I dont know if that makes any difference or not .

 

[DaveNay]

Thanks Dave for taking the time to explain that . But the 150 K heater I'm using right now is really an overkill & I dont think I have ever ran it more then 3 hours out of a 24 hour period & thats only if I,m going to be painting to where I have to open the doors to let the overspray & fumes out .

I dont know if that makes any difference or not .

The best way to get some "real" numbers is to do some empirical testing.

using your existing heating method, bring the temperature up to where you want to maintain it. Maintain that temperature for 24 hours (to allow all the heat mass to soak). Then turn off the heat, and wait one hour and then measure the temperature at various places around the shop. This will give you a rough idea what your heat loss is per hour. Ideally, you would do this on the coldest/windiest day of the year.

You will then need to calculate the volume of the room and factor that into the temperature change to determine the BTU loss per hour for the shop.

This will be the same number of BTU per hour that you will need to generate with your new electric heater.

I would probably add 50% extra capacity.

 

[Cowboy]

Even though electric is 100% efficient it seldom is the good choice. All that means is for every dollar purchased you get a dollars worth back. Most gas furnaces when you buy a dollars worth of fuel you only get 80 to 95 cents back. However the gas furnace the fuel is so much less per Btu.

As Bob said in our area electric is extremely expensive.

Thanks thcri . I dont know if this will help or not I had my wife type this from our last months bill to show what the rates run in this area , I dont know if it will help or not . FYI we have 2 seperate 200 amp services as well as meters so we get 2 bills every month . The 40 x 60 building which is used mainlly for storage the last few months is the second meter billing . Everything else is on the first one . Thanks again to all .

 

[thcri]

Do you have LP Gas available and what is the going rate per gallon?

 

[Cowboy]

The best way to get some "real" numbers is to do some empirical testing.

using your existing heating method, bring the temperature up to where you want to maintain it. Maintain that temperature for 24 hours (to allow all the heat mass to soak). Then turn off the heat, and wait one hour and then measure the temperature at various places around the shop. This will give you a rough idea what your heat loss is per hour. Ideally, you would do this on the coldest/windiest day of the year.

You will then need to calculate the volume of the room and factor that into the temperature change to determine the BTU loss per hour for the shop.

This will be the same number of BTU per hour that you will need to generate with your new electric heater.

I would probably add 50% extra capacity.

Thanks again Dave . I think I understand what you are saying , but without me leaving my torpedo heater unattended it would be hard for me to do that over a 24 hour period .

I'll see if I can at least figure out the volume of the area I am trying to heat , but once I get past adding 2+2 It,s perty much over my head calculating anything , I'm not lazy I'm just not good with numbers . Thanks again to all for the input .

 

[Cowboy]

Do you have LP Gas available and what is the going rate per gallon?

I had a 500 gallon propane tank here before but had never used it & sold it due to the fact it was from the 1950,s & I just dont trust propane . I have a friend that uses propane and he constantlly bitches about the cost going up so much , I really just want to stick with electric mainlly because it is the safest as far as i am concerned .

I'm not concerned about a perfect solution as I am not out there all of the time working , just trying to avoid using the torpedo heater , this is the first year I am using this shop during the winter and plan on it from now on for my main workshop . I just though if I can keep everything from getting to cold it would be easier to keep at an average temp of 60 degrees or so .

 

[thcri]

If your comfortable with electric then fine. Out of that 40 x 60 shop do you heat the whole thing or is it partitioned off and only heat a portion? On Monday if you can wait I can do a load calculation for you to tell you the size of heater needed.

I need.
1. Ceiling Height
2. How many overhead doors and size.
3. Service Doors and windows.
4. Tell me a bit about the construction.

You said you have a 200 amp service to the shop. How many other power sucking electrical appliances do you have in there like welders.

 

[Adillo303]

I have a slightly different slant / question along this line.

I am setting up a wood shop in a 24 X 18 Garage. Currently I plug in my 25 or so year old salamander for heat. My Kero is red and costs $4.00 per gal. Sitting in the garage is a 100K gas forced air furnace that we used 2 or 3 years. I believe it is 85% efficient. Would I be better off trying to figure out a way to hook that up?

 

[thcri]

I have a slightly different slant / question along this line.

I am setting up a wood shop in a 24 X 18 Garage. Currently I plug in my 25 or so year old salamander for heat. My Kero is red and costs $4.00 per gal. Sitting in the garage is a 100K gas forced air furnace that we used 2 or 3 years. I believe it is 85% efficient. Would I be better off trying to figure out a way to hook that up?

If you can yes. The only thing I would caution is if this is a residential house type furnace and 80% it will not be good for being used in a place with lower temperatures.

 

[Cowboy]

If your comfortable with electric then fine. Out of that 40 x 60 shop do you heat the whole thing or is it partitioned off and only heat a portion? On Monday if you can wait I can do a load calculation for you to tell you the size of heater needed.

I need.
1. Ceiling Height
2. How many overhead doors and size.
3. Service Doors and windows.
4. Tell me a bit about the construction.

You said you have a 200 amp service to the shop. How many other power sucking electrical appliances do you have in there like welders.

Sorry I am probablly confusing you with to much information . The 40 x 60 building has its seperate 200 amp service but I am only using it for storage mainlly & will more then likelly not even heat or cool it after this winter except on a need to basis .

The house & other 2 garages are on a seperate 200 amp service with the supply line running into the house & feeding the other 2 garages . One garage I very seldom use any power in other then our well & a little oil filled radiator type heater to keep it from freezing . I also have my woodworking shop setup in there but never use any of the equipment at the same time as my other shop so power shortage is never an issue .

The shop I am heating with the torpedo is the only one I am concerned with . It measures 23' 4" wide , 31' 4" long , ceiling is 8' 4" tall all inside dimensions . It is regular frame construction 2x6 studwalls , completly sheetrocked inside & heavilly insulated with the ceiling having a foot of blown in insulation . It has one 32 " walkin door & a 7 foot tall x 16 foot overhead door both being insulated doors no windows other then the storm door I recentlly put on it so I can open the window on it when using the torpedo heater .

Yes I have welders , a drill press & a 220 compresor but I never use any more then one piece of equipment at a time due to I know I am limited on power in this shop I now work out of . I plan on trenching a line from my big building & putting this shop on its own service this spring but I'm just trying to get through this winter for heat without risking the co2 fumes from the torpedo heater .

I am the only one that uses any of the out buildings or equipment & very cautious as to what power I use in any one building at a time . If that makes sense .

Same way with the house , we have very little appliances that are used at the same time & I cant be more then one place at a time . Thats probablly still more information then you needed . But thanks for taking the time to help .

 

[SShepherd]

find a cheap wood burning stove

 

[Cowboy]

find a cheap wood burning stove

Thanks Shep , but that defeats my purpose .

I dont want to have to go out & load it with wood nor clean it out, and it would be absolutlly worthless when I am painting as I cant just turn it on or off . Open flame vs Paint fumes , not a good ideal , I also dont want to lose the floor space it would take . Thanks again for the suggestion though .

 

[Cowboy]

I know this aint the best or most efficient type of heat & may very well not do the job , But these are the type of heaters I'm thinking about .


http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduct.cfm?productID=453061997&linkfrom=shopzilla


http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduct.cfm?productID=453061999&linkfrom=shopzilla

That being said . It got down to 7 degrees last night & the inside stayed at 40 degrees with no heat running for the last 24 hours . I ran the torpedo for 1 hour with the storm door window open for fresh air to bring it up to 80 degrees . I also use a ocilating fan to move the heat around all over the shop . 3 hours later with the shop closed up its still holding at 70 degrees .

That used about 8 bucks worth of fuel not to mention electric for the heater & fan . I can run it every 5 or 6 hours for 10 minutes or so & keep it at a comfortable 60 to 65 degrees which will use around another 10 bucks in fuel alone . I dont allways spend more then 3 or 4 hours in the shop everyday , But I do work out there everyday & like to be comfortable when I am .

Its very seldom when it will stay below 20 degrees outside for more then a few days at a time & sometimes it gets in the 40,s or more during the day so We dont have what I call extreme cold conditions like some of you . I also very seldom open the overhead door when its real cold other then if it snows to get the tractor out & only then just long enough to get in or out .

As I said this is my first winter using this garage for a shop & its much easier to heat then the big building & closer to the house . I Aint looking for a miracle heater , but right now I am spending around 2 to 300 a month on kerosene alone as well as risking the carbon dioxide fumes & losing heat while trying to bring in fresh air . An added 100 or 150 in electric to run the electric heater per month , would be quite the savings & I could adjust my usage of the shop accordinglly .

Thanks again & sorry for the long drawn out posts .

 

[Cowboy]

This is the shop I am wanting to heat . They say pictures are worth 1000 words , but I like to provide both when asking for suggestions or advice . Thanks

 

[thcri]

What temperature do you like keeping the shop at??

 

[DaveNay]

This is the shop I am wanting to heat . They say pictures are worth 1000 words , but I like to provide both when asking for suggestions or advice . Thanks

I see your problem....your shop's too damn nice.

If you had a crappy, dirty, cold shop like me, you 'd be perfectly happy to just keep the rain off your head.

 

[Cowboy]

What temperature do you like keeping the shop at??

I would say overnight or when I,m not out there 45 to 50 degrees mainlly to keep the concrete or anything like the tractors from getting to cold as they are the hardest thing to warm up it seems . If I am working in the shop 60 degrees is plenty comfy for me as long as everything else inside aint 40 or colder .

I would like to have the option of having it up to 70 if needed but not very often & I could schedule my days where its not miserablly cold outside . There are no wind leaks as well , I spent all summer & the last few months sealing it to where it is damn near airtight . Even the overhead door I have adjusted tight & weather stripped on the inside as well as the outside . the overhead faces the east & we very seldom get wind from that direction . The walk in door is on the south wall & fairlly protected by the house from direct wind .


I may still be wrong in my thinking that those types of heaters will do the job , Thats why I'm looking for expert advice . Thanks

 

[XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq]

I see your problem....your shop's too damn nice.

If you had a crappy, dirty, cold shop like me, you 'd be perfectly happy to just keep the rain off your head.

I agree, I don't even have a roof on my "shop" - it's a patch of gravel beside my shed.

 

[Cowboy]

I see your problem....your shop's too damn nice.

If you had a crappy, dirty, cold shop like me, you 'd be perfectly happy to just keep the rain off your head.

Thanks Dave , but you should have seen it before I started , it was damn near falling in on itself . I couldn't even light a ceegar in there because of the wind blowing in from several different places that had rotted out or wasn't sealed right in the first place .

 

[SShepherd]

NG is your only option.

if it runs to your house you're in luck

 

[Cowboy]

NG is your only option.

if it runs to your house you're in luck

NG is not an option either Shep . Its not even available to the surrounding few sections of land .

 

[thcri]

I would say overnight or when I,m not out there 45 to 50 degrees mainlly to keep the concrete or anything like the tractors from getting to cold as they are the hardest thing to warm up it seems . If I am working in the shop 60 degrees is plenty comfy for me as long as everything else inside aint 40 or colder .

I would like to have the option of having it up to 70 if needed but not very often & I could schedule my days where its not miserablly cold outside . There are no wind leaks as well , I spent all summer & the last few months sealing it to where it is damn near airtight . Even the overhead door I have adjusted tight & weather stripped on the inside as well as the outside . the overhead faces the east & we very seldom get wind from that direction . The walk in door is on the south wall & fairlly protected by the house from direct wind .


I may still be wrong in my thinking that those types of heaters will do the job , Thats why I'm looking for expert advice . Thanks

I will run it through a load calculation on Monday when back in the office.

 

[Cowboy]

I will run it through a load calculation on Monday when back in the office.

That would be Great , I really apreciate it just if & when you have time though .

 

[thcri]

I know this aint the best or most efficient type of heat & may very well not do the job , But these are the type of heaters I'm thinking about .


http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduct.cfm?productID=453061997&linkfrom=shopzilla


http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduct.cfm?productID=453061999&linkfrom=shopzilla

Actually without knowing your ambient design temperature the heaters abovw are good ones. The 5KW is short but the 10KW would be more than adequate. If you could find one like the above in a 7.5KW that would be perfect. Or what would be most efficient is two of the 5's so it can concentrate on the area your working in.