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Can the US avoid the street riots/unrest that is rocking Greece?

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Is there any way that we can pull back from the brink?

Obama is expanding government debt at rates that are unprecedented. Even George Bush (actually either or both of them) didn't spend at the 1/2 the rate that Obama is spending. And while spending like a drunken sailor, he is also expanding the scope of government services, reach and realm.

So how can WE AS A NATION prepare for this? And how can YOU AS AN INDIVIDUAL prepare for this?

Do you want to see what a 21st century economic depression looks like?

Just look at Greece. Once upon a time, the Greek economy was thriving, the Greek government was borrowing money like there was no tomorrow and Greek citizens were thoroughly enjoying the bubble of false prosperity that all that debt created. Those that warned that Greece was headed for a financial collapse were laughed at and were called “doom and gloomers”. Well, nobody is laughing now. You see, the truth is that debt is a very cruel master. Greeks were able to live way beyond their means for many, many years but eventually a day of reckoning arrived. At this point, the Greek economy has been in a recession for five years in a row, and the economic crisis in that country is rapidly getting even worse. It was just recently announced that the overall rate of unemployment in Greece has soared above 20 percent and the youth unemployment rate has risen to an astounding 48 percent. One out of every five retail stores has been shut down and parents are literally abandoning children in the streets. The frightening thing is that this is just the beginning. Things are going to get a lot worse in Greece. And in case you haven’t been paying attention, these kinds of conditions are coming to the United States as well. We are heading down the exact same road as Greece went down, and the economic pain that this country is eventually going to suffer is going to be beyond anything that most Americans would dare to imagine.

All debt spirals eventually come to an end. For years, Greece borrowed huge amounts of very cheap money, but there came a point when the debt became absolutely strangling and the rest of the world refused to lend the Greek government money at such cheap rates anymore.

Greece would have defaulted long before now if the EU and the IMF had not stepped in to bail them out. But along with those bailouts came strings. The EU and the IMF insisted that the Greek government cut spending and raise taxes.

Well, those spending cuts and tax increases caused the economy to slow down. Tax revenues decreased and deficit reduction targets were missed. So the EU and the IMF insisted on even more spending cuts and tax increases.

Even after all of the spending cuts and all of the tax increases that we have seen, the debt to GDP ratio in Greece is still higher than it was before the crisis began. Today, the Greek national debt is sitting at 142 percent of GDP.

Now the EU and the IMF are demanding even more austerity measures before they will release any more bailout money.

Needless to say, the Greek people are pretty much exasperated by all of this. They created this mess by going into so much debt, but they certainly don’t like the solutions that are being imposed upon them.

Protesters in Greece are absolutely outraged that the EU and the IMF are now demanding a 22 percent reduction in the minimum wage.

Most families in Greece are just barely surviving at this point. Unfortunately, Greece is probably looking at depression conditions for many years to come.

Over the past three years, the size of the Greek economy has shrunk by 16 percent.

In 2012, it is being projected that the Greek economy will shrink by another 5 percent.

Sadly, that projection is probably way too optimistic.

Over the past couple of months, it has been like someone has pulled the rug out from under the Greek economy. Just check out the following numbers from an article in the Telegraph by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard….
Another normal day at the Hellenic Statistical Authority.
We learn that:

Greece’s manufacturing output contracted by 15.5pc in December from a year earlier.

Industrial output fell 11.3pc, compared to minus 7.8pc in November.

Unemployment jumped to 20.9pc in November, up from 18.2pc a month earlier.

I have little further to add. This is what a death spiral looks like.
Can you imagine unemployment going up by 2.7 percent in one month?

This is what a 21st century economic depression looks like.

And needless to say, civil unrest is rampant in Greece.

The following is how a USA Today article described some of the protests that we saw in Greece this week….

Scores of youths, in hoods and gas masks, used sledge hammers to smash up marble paving stones in Athens’ main Syntagma Square before hurling the rubble at riot police.

The country’s two biggest labor unions stopped railway, ferry and public transport schedules, and hospitals worked on skeleton staff while most public services were disrupted. Unions were planning protests in Athens and other cities around midday.

Greek citizens are exasperated by the endless rounds of austerity that are being imposed upon them. They wonder how far all of this is going to go.

How much higher can taxes go in Greece? Greece already has tax rates that are among the highest in Europe….

Greece has the third highest rate of VAT in Europe, second highest gas/petrol tax, third highest tax on social insurance contributions, fifth highest VAT on alcohol, highest property tax and one of the worst corporate tax rates, without the quality of living or competitiveness to match.

How much farther can government pay be cut? Greek civil servants have had their incomes slashed by about 40 percent since 2010.

How would you feel if your pay was reduced by 40 percent?

Large numbers of Greeks are rapidly reaching the end of their ropes. The following is from a recent article in the Independent….

“People are scared and haven’t really realised what’s happening yet,” George Pantsios, an electrician for the country’s public power corporation, said. He has only been receiving half of his €850 monthly wage since August. “But once we all lose our jobs and can’t feed our kids, that’s when it’ll go boom and we’ll turn into Tahrir Square.”
Instead of turning violent, others are simply giving in to despair. According tothe Daily Mail, large numbers of Greek children are being abandoned because their parents simply cannot afford to take care of them anymore. The note that one mother left with her little toddler was absolutely heartbreaking….

One mother, it said, ran away after handing over her two-year-old daughter Natasha.

Four-year-old Anna was found by a teacher clutching a note that read: ‘I will not be coming to pick up Anna today because I cannot afford to look after her. Please take good care of her. Sorry.’
Sadly, there are an increasing number of Greeks that are giving up on life entirely. The number of suicides in Greece rose by 40 percent during just one recent 12 month time period.

But we haven’t even seen the worst in Greece yet. The worst is still yet to come.

And the people of Greece are going to get angrier and angrier and angrier.

According to one recent poll, about 90 percent all of Greeks are unhappy with the interim government led by Prime Minister Lucas Papademos.

This week, that government has started to fall apart. Over just the past few days, 6 members of the 48-member government cabinet have resigned. Not only is there real doubt if the new austerity measures will be approved, there is very real doubt if this government will be able to hold together much longer.

Frustration with the EU and the IMF has reached a fever pitch in Greece. Just check out what Reuters is reporting….
In a letter obtained by Reuters on Friday, the Federation of Greek Police accused the officials of “…blackmail, covertly abolishing or eroding democracy and national sovereignty” and said one target of its warrants would be the IMF’s top official for Greece, Poul Thomsen.
So what is going to happen next in Greece?

The truth is that nobody knows.

But whatever kind of “deals” are reached, the reality is that nothing is going to keep Greece from continuing to experience depression-like conditions for quite some time.

Unfortunately, Greece is not an isolated case.

Portugal, Ireland, Italy and Spain are all going down the same path and Europe does not have enough money to bail all of them out.

To get an idea of how much money it would take to bail out the financially troubled nations of Europe, just check out this infographic that was recently posted on ZeroHedge.

A day of reckoning is coming for the United States as well. As CNBC recently noted, the U.S. debt problem is far worse than the European debt problem is.

That is why I have written over and over about the U.S. national debt and about how the U.S. government is spending too much money.

Right now, the U.S. government is still able to borrow gigantic mountains of very cheap money and is spending money as if tomorrow will never come.

Well, just like we saw in Greece, when debt gets out of control a day of great pain eventually arrives.

What we are watching unfold in Greece right now is coming to America.

You better get ready.


http://www.blacklistednews.com/This...ke_In_The_21st_Century/17883/0/38/38/Y/M.html

 

FrancSevin

Proudly Deplorable
GOLD Site Supporter
Average Annual Disposable income per American household........ $32,400
Average Government income per entitlement American Household $32,800

I don't believe there is a civil way to unlearn 40 years of socialist public school programing. Add to that a larger percentage of college educated , (indoctrinated) voters and you have a mind bent towards an entitilement society.
Then you do the math and realize almost 50% of our population gets more from the governement than they put in. You won't change that at the ballot box or inthe Congress.

These facts don't, inandof themselves, make us Greece. But, when you factor our reckless borrowing of 40 cents on every dollar we spend and compare that to the 70% of our budget that goes to Entitlements, one must conclude we are going the way of Greece.

As for the riots, we are also already there.
 

joec

New member
GOLD Site Supporter
You know I am a bit skeptical about our debt and who's fault in these statements. Now if you give me a chance before going off, I will explain why. First they always use what the debt is when a president comes into office and compare that to what it is at any moment later. So if it goes up it is due to who is in office. Now that said their are some problems with that formula in that programs put into law under previous presidents will in many cases reflect on those number when a new president is in office. For example Obama care debt cost won't show up until after 2014 and the next president will have that tacked on his bill too.

I would like to see what the actually figures are that each president while in office signed off of legislation spending money instead of this kind of comparison. Oh and I'm not saying it isn't true just that I don't buy the way it is done.

As for Greece type riots in the streets here, who knows but it could happen as it has in the past over other issues of the time.
 

muleman

Gone But Not Forgotten
GOLD Site Supporter
Next comes martial law and no need for elections with the expanded powers we have been giving presidents for the past 30 years. It will all happen "for the good of the sheeple" and will result in those of us who have worked hard all our lives having to fight to the death for what we have. The minute they start cutting u/c, welfare and food stamps the ranks of OWS crowd will swell and all hell will break loose. The only safe place will be far off the beaten path with lots of ammo.:hammer:
 
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Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
You know I am a bit skeptical about our debt and who's fault in these statements. . .
Joe, with all due respect, I don't care who is at fault. I blame both parties. No question that Obama is simply making it worse, everyone agrees he is spending more than anyone else. Others spent too much too. Let's move BEYOND 'who' is to blame and blame them all!

But that is NOT the issue.


The issue is now that we are going down the rat hole can we pull ourselves out if it before we have a Greece style collapse. Italy is collapsing right behind Greece, the Italian banking system has just been downgraded. Portugal may come next?

All these nations have one thing in common, they are spending more than they can possibly raise in revenues (even with tax rates that make us cringe).

So to get back on topic, can we pull ourselves out of this mess of over-spending and unaffordable debt before there are riots in the streets? And how do we protect ourselves and families?



Average Annual Disposable income per American household........ $32,400
Average Government income per entitlement American Household $32,800

I don't believe there is a civil way to unlearn 40 years of socialist public school programing. Add to that a larger percentage of college educated , (indoctrinated) voters and you have a mind bent towards an entitilement society.
Then you do the math and realize almost 50% of our population gets more from the governement than they put in. You won't change that at the ballot box or inthe Congress.

These facts don't, inandof themselves, make us Greece. But, when you factor our reckless borrowing of 40 cents on every dollar we spend and compare that to the 70% of our budget that goes to Entitlements, one must conclude we are going the way of Greece. . .
Great points, and they reinforce the concerns posed in the original article.

Now back to the real question, how do we prepare for it? What can we (as a nation) do? What can we (as individuals) do?
 

joec

New member
GOLD Site Supporter
Joe, with all due respect, I don't care who is at fault. I blame both parties. No question that Obama is simply making it worse, everyone agrees he is spending more than anyone else. Others spent too much too. Let's move BEYOND 'who' is to blame and blame them all!

But that is NOT the issue.

The issue is now that we are going down the rat hole can we pull ourselves out if it before we have a Greece style collapse. Italy is collapsing right behind Greece, the Italian banking system has just been downgraded. Portugal may come next?

All these nations have one thing in common, they are spending more than they can possibly raise in revenues (even with tax rates that make us cringe).

So to get back on topic, can we pull ourselves out of this mess of over-spending and unaffordable debt before there are riots in the streets? And how do we protect ourselves and families?




Great points, and they reinforce the concerns posed in the original article.

Now back to the real question, how do we prepare for it? What can we (as a nation) do? What can we (as individuals) do?

No problem as I said we have had riots in the past over other issues and probably will in the future.

Now it really won't matter much how good the US economy is because if Greece falls or any other country in the EU we are so interconnected it will bring us down too. Might not be as far but way worse than we are now.
 

Kane

New member
It is just a matter of time, folks.

Right now the world is focused upon Greece et. al. and the EURO collective in general. The problems in Europe give pause the the EURO, making the USD artificially attractive. But as soon as the troubles in the EURO-Zone are resolved - one way or another - the focus will swing back to the USD.

And the overwhelming, unsustainable debt.

So soon it will be America undergoing austerity programs. And the entitlement society nurtured so long will flow onto the streets, well armed and pissed off.

Anarchy of historically bloody levels will ensue.
.
 

FrancSevin

Proudly Deplorable
GOLD Site Supporter
Assessing "who's fault" this situation is may be important for historians, but matter's little to the moment. The violence will come and fault will have little to do with the equation.
Besides, finding that fault is unlikely to keep us from repeating history again,,,,and again.

Never has.

Guns, gold, and TP. The rest will be just the debris of civilization
 

jimbo

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
As I see it, the only possible way to bail out the country is a total freeze on government spending. That would include all forms of government assistance and employment. There is no way to cut back programs. It might be possible to cut back based on attrition.

The 50 % dependent on government figure does not include those who work for the government. The number of people dependent on the government for their check is far larger than 50%. We are way past the tipping point.

The other possible salvation is the number of armed citizens in the two countries. I think we may soon have a better understanding of a well regulated militia.

Greece's numbers:

Number of Privately Owned Firearms

The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Greece is 2,500,0001
Compare
Rate of Civilian Firearm Possession per 100 Population


The rate of private gun ownership in Greece is 22.52 firearms per 100 people

Compare
Number of Privately Owned Firearms - World Ranking


In a comparison of the number of privately owned guns in 178 countries, Greece ranked at No. 311

Compare
Rate of Privately Owned Firearms per 100 Population - World Ranking


In a comparison of the rate of private gun ownership in 179 countries, Greece ranked at No. 232

Compare
Number of Licensed Firearm Owners


The number of licensed gun owners in Greece is reported to be 3,1803

Compare
Rate of Licensed Firearm Owners per 100 Population


The rate of licensed firearm owners in Greece is 0.034 per 100 people

Compare
Number of Registered Firearms


The number of registered guns in Greece is reported to be 100,0001

Compare
Rate of Registered Firearms per 100 Population


The rate of registered firearms per 100 people in Greece is 0.944

Compare
Number of Privately Owned Handguns


There are reportedly 5,0003 handguns in civilian possession in Greece

I think that is why the 2nd amendment is so important to me.
 

300 H and H

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
Guns ammo and gold will be the new currancy if this, what you're talking about comes to pass. Ignor this at your own perrill.

Get out of the cities, if you can. Better have a place to go though, or you need to stay put.

Regards, Kirk
 

Kane

New member
Ironically, the ones that have been supported or otherwise "entitled" by government will become the most dangerous.

Once a taker, always a taker.
.
 

Big Dog

Large Member
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Ironically, the ones that have been supported or otherwise "entitled" by government will become the most dangerous.

Once a taker, always a taker.
.

OWS is the start, it's going to take a revolution to get this back on track I fear.
 

pirate_girl

legendary ⚓
GOLD Site Supporter
The microcosm of our future, if what all you are saying turns to be the direction we are heading.
Shall we all be in fear for the same if the current man is re-elected?
Those in support of such policies after government collapse will be screaming to their leader for entitlements.. and as Kane stated, will become the most dangerous.

6a0147e137f31a970b015432ce09a1970c-800wi.jpg
 

joec

New member
GOLD Site Supporter
Though I feel this country will wind up in the same place I don't think it will happen due to those that expect to be cared for at all. I don't think those people really exist in this country with a few exceptions other than in some peoples minds. I do feel though it will be from those locked completely out of the system with no chance to have their voices heard or improve their lot in life.
 

jimbo

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
Though I feel this country will wind up in the same place I don't think it will happen due to those that expect to be cared for at all. I don't think those people really exist in this country with a few exceptions other than in some peoples minds. I do feel though it will be from those locked completely out of the system with no chance to have their voices heard or improve their lot in life.
And who might those people be?
 

joec

New member
GOLD Site Supporter
And who might those people be?

They are all around you jimbo, unemployed with benefits gone, veterans returning from the middle east, or kid in debt up to his eye balls on collage loans with no job prospect job or future ahead of him. Like others with no hope of a better future, that is where most revolutions start from. I can't think of a single revolution started from the top down, always from the bottom up.
 

FrancSevin

Proudly Deplorable
GOLD Site Supporter
If this happens, it will be about class warfare

The President continues to fan that flame
The Democratic leadership continues to encourage him.
The press endorses and gladly publishes the message.

So, if it does happen, ,,,,,will it still be GWB's fault?:ermm:

Or will those with common sense realize, we let our leaders do it to us all.
 

loboloco

Well-known member
They are all around you jimbo, unemployed with benefits gone, veterans returning from the middle east, or kid in debt up to his eye balls on collage loans with no job prospect job or future ahead of him. Like others with no hope of a better future, that is where most revolutions start from. I can't think of a single revolution started from the top down, always from the bottom up.
Actually, joe, there has almost never been a revolution where the truly poor and downtrodden have implemented and led it. The American Revolution was created and led by the elite of this country at the time. Ditto, the French Revolution, Ditto the Russian revolution, ditto the various peasant rebellions in Europe throughout history.
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
loco, excellent points all.

The 'poor and downtrodden' have been used as pawns and cannon fodder by those who wanted to overthrow the system. But they don't actually start the events. They are simply used.
 

Mtn-Track

Member
Next comes martial law and no need for elections with the expanded powers we have been giving presidents for the past 30 years. It will all happen "for the good of the sheeple" and will result in those of us who have worked hard all our lives having to fight to the death for what we have. The minute they start cutting u/c, welfare and food stamps the ranks of OWS crowd will swell and all hell will break loose. The only safe place will be far off the beaten path with lots of ammo.:hammer:

That about sums it up. Given all the "drills" that have been in the works lately, you can assume the gubmit is more-than-expecting it. In fact, it would seem they are actually planning it!:sad:
 

FrancSevin

Proudly Deplorable
GOLD Site Supporter
Actually, joe, there has almost never been a revolution where the truly poor and downtrodden have implemented and led it. The American Revolution was created and led by the elite of this country at the time. Ditto, the French Revolution, Ditto the Russian revolution, ditto the various peasant rebellions in Europe throughout history.

Agreed.

Historicaly it is generaly the Elite that motivate the masses of the poor to take down the overnment. Thus allowing them to accomplish their agenda without risk to life limb and,,,,,,,comfort.

Pied Pipers, whether they are named Osama or Obama; Soros or Saul Alynski, they have wealth, education, and comfort. It is the wretched masses that strap on the pipe bombs and throw molotov cocktails.
 

tiredretired

The Old Salt
SUPER Site Supporter
You know I am a bit skeptical about our debt and who's fault in these statements. Now if you give me a chance before going off, I will explain why. First they always use what the debt is when a president comes into office and compare that to what it is at any moment later. So if it goes up it is due to who is in office. Now that said their are some problems with that formula in that programs put into law under previous presidents will in many cases reflect on those number when a new president is in office. For example Obama care debt cost won't show up until after 2014 and the next president will have that tacked on his bill too.

I would like to see what the actually figures are that each president while in office signed off of legislation spending money instead of this kind of comparison. Oh and I'm not saying it isn't true just that I don't buy the way it is done.

As for Greece type riots in the streets here, who knows but it could happen as it has in the past over other issues of the time.

You know, I think if McCain had won the election he would have spent his fair share as well. With a Democratic congress he would certainly have been under pressure for stimulus type bills. We most likely would have had many of the bailouts too. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Barry, because I think Barry has spent more than McCain would have, but we will never how much for sure.

Not sure if it will happen here. The Europeans are a different breed of cat. Not a lot of respect for them and the way they do their business. They've had a lot handed to them since the end of WW2 Quite simply they are acting like a bunch of spoiled brats right now.
 

FrancSevin

Proudly Deplorable
GOLD Site Supporter
You know, I think if McCain had won the election he would have spent his fair share as well. With a Democratic congress he would certainly have been under pressure for stimulus type bills. We most likely would have had many of the bailouts too. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Barry, because I think Barry has spent more than McCain would have, but we will never how much for sure.

Not sure if it will happen here. The Europeans are a different breed of cat. Not a lot of respect for them and the way they do their business. They've had a lot handed to them since the end of WW2 Quite simply they are acting like a bunch of spoiled brats right now.

The Europeans have been at war with "Somebody" since the 15th century. The French revolution of 1789 lasted 60 years before the nation stabilized. And then only enough to go to war with it's neighbors.

The longest period of peace for Europe in the last 500 years was post WWII. Arguably under our reconstruction leadership. The world was a better place when America was proud to lead it. Now, not so much.

And Europe will fall again into it's secular and regionalistic abiss.
 

muleman

Gone But Not Forgotten
GOLD Site Supporter
That about sums it up. Given all the "drills" that have been in the works lately, you can assume the gubmit is more-than-expecting it. In fact, it would seem they are actually planning it!:sad:
Sure seems like more than coincidence that it has been going on. Look for the OWS crowd to be the initial pawns once the cold weather breaks. They will start the disturbances and then various "events" will happen in the cities to lead to the power play against the citizens.:hammer:
 

Kane

New member
Sure seems like more than coincidence that it has been going on. Look for the OWS crowd to be the initial pawns once the cold weather breaks. They will start the disturbances and then various "events" will happen in the cities to lead to the power play against the citizens.:hammer:
If the Right has any chance in November, the Tea Party had better be out in full force ... setting a good example.
 

CityGirl

Silver Member
SUPER Site Supporter
February 12, 2012 (Scribillare). A coalition of three Southern Oregon Occupy Movements is joining forces with a local libertarian/Tea Party goup called Wake Up America Southern Oregon for a Monday February 13th protest in Medford against the National Defense Authorization Act.

This is one of the first cooperative efforts between such groups. A statement noted that the joint action will "show that united we can begin to stand up to the problems which face us as a nation and a people."

Joe Snook of Wake up America stated in a message "it is time that We the People (all of us) unite!” Occupy Ashland Oregon and Occupy Meford Oregon: "The indefinite detention clauses within this year’s National Defense Authorization Act are a direct attack upon the civil rights of all Americans, and represent another step taken toward eroding the freedoms which lay at the foundation of our society." It also pointed to a link to a speech by Oregon Senator Jeff Merkley, who was one of only thirteen Senators to vote against the bill. (See speech at bottom of this article).
Speakers at the protest will include Gil Gilbertson, Josephine County Sheriff, Joseph Snook of Wake Up America, Ben Playfaire of Occupy Medford, Linda Sturgeon of Occupy Ashland, and Jeff Golden, affiliated with a public TV/Internet show called "Immense Possibilities."

Others have called for cooperation between the two groups in those areas where their interests overlap. Preservation of the rights defined in the U.S. Constitution appear to be one of the prime areas of mutual concern. The Wake Up America Southern Oregon states that "Written in plain English, the learning of the Constitution is pivotal to guarding each American's liberties. As it is learned, it will be shared with others so that they, too, can understand that through the Constitution they can be protected." The Occupy Movement bases the act of occupation upon "the right of the people peaceably to assemble" as defined in the first Amendment of the United States Constitution
http://www.scribillare.com/occupy-m...iers-find-common-cause-in-fight-against-ndaa/
 

Kane

New member
It is not to anyone's advantage that the Tea Party join forces with the OWS crowd. It fact it would be detrimental that the organizations show any coalition, show the same game face or state the same purpose or goals.

The very last thing that the Tea Party needs is to be associated with the violence and the poop fests demonstrated by the OWStreeters. The media would have a ball denigrating the behavior and tactics of the Tea Party, even tho it is the OWS bunch doing the dirty deeds.

Beware.
.
 
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