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Brake Band Lining materials?
- Thread starter Snowcat Pat
- Start date
Snowcat Pat
Active member
Feel free to post your opinions.Anyone?
Pat
Pat
Snowcat Pat
Active member
OK, here are some alternatives that seem interesting to me. Your thoughts and experiences, please.
http://www.tribco.com/about.html
http://www.rowland2.com/products/frictionMaterials.htm
Why am I asking? Because I have seen some pretty shoddy relines and I want to improve my rebuilds.
Pat
http://www.tribco.com/about.html
http://www.rowland2.com/products/frictionMaterials.htm
Why am I asking? Because I have seen some pretty shoddy relines and I want to improve my rebuilds.
Pat
Snowcat Operations
Active member
Pat,
Why do you use the Champion Friction 9010 material. Is it the best you have found so far? I have no experience with any brake lining material.
Why do you use the Champion Friction 9010 material. Is it the best you have found so far? I have no experience with any brake lining material.
Snowcat Pat
Active member
Because 9010 was recommended highly by some folks in the hard rock mining industry who's opinion I respect, but their application is externally mounted in the muck, not in an oil bath. Then I called Champion and their tech guy gave the nod for using it in the oil bath steering brakes. Thats all I had had to go on over the years, other than no customer complaints. The 9010 is much better than the stuff they use at the brake place in Spokane who's name I won't mention, and far less expensive than Petersons. But no one has been able to say with certainty that Petersons is better, and I think that all that grooving just reduces the surface contact area, pieces of lining break out near the grooves and it certainly wears the drums unevenly. Champion can provide it that way they call it RNAW Diamond groove. Instead, I cut horizontal slots .025 wide and .060 deep between every two rivets to let the oil in or out and to help prevent chatter. You can just see them in the photo. I'm always looking for the best performance for the buck. I would like to eliminate the metal threads in the lining but it's there for heat transfer, the kevlar stuff doesn't have the metal threads but is spendy. It's suposed to take the heat but then the drums have to do all the heat transfer. There seems to be a lot of mystery about these linings-generically called Heavy Duty Woven.
Reminds me of when I first got into Snowcats in '88 and tried to get any answer to any question. Some of the people then reluctant to give good info are on this board, sorry if they are offended. We are lucky to have this forum now to share info, if only people will. As you know, Snow Ops, I will share all the info I have on Thiokols.
Pat
Reminds me of when I first got into Snowcats in '88 and tried to get any answer to any question. Some of the people then reluctant to give good info are on this board, sorry if they are offended. We are lucky to have this forum now to share info, if only people will. As you know, Snow Ops, I will share all the info I have on Thiokols.
Pat
Snowcat Operations
Active member
Snowcat Pat,
Yes you have freely given me diagrams and advice over the years. I really appreciate all the work and effort you have done. wheI needs brakes replaced you have my business. When my oc-12 need refurbishing you will get that business too. Anything dealing with the oc-12 and its functions will get you business. Thanks for the work and I too hope everyone whos knows stuff will post. Most of the detailed work is beyond 95% percent of us. BUT it sure helps us figure out what is wrong or going wrong with our equipment or what we need to have replaced before there is a serious problem.
Yes you have freely given me diagrams and advice over the years. I really appreciate all the work and effort you have done. wheI needs brakes replaced you have my business. When my oc-12 need refurbishing you will get that business too. Anything dealing with the oc-12 and its functions will get you business. Thanks for the work and I too hope everyone whos knows stuff will post. Most of the detailed work is beyond 95% percent of us. BUT it sure helps us figure out what is wrong or going wrong with our equipment or what we need to have replaced before there is a serious problem.
mtncrawler
Bronze Member
I never have asked what type of material the linings were. I described the application and used what was recomended. I'm assuming you're doing your own riveting where I've dropped my off at a heavy equipt/truck shop. The only thing I've noticed with OC-4 is especially with the woven looking material they tend to wear the lining at the last 3 or 4 inches on the bands. Then the ends of the band butt up against each other and restrict the tightening process. Continued exterior adjustment at that point can damage the band itself. I think I have an example band around here someplace. I'll post a picture if I can find it.
wannagoflying
Member
Pat,
Are you ready for my set to reline? We appreciate your efforts.
John
Are you ready for my set to reline? We appreciate your efforts.
John
MNoutdoors RIP
Gone But Not Forgotten
When I get back I'll post pictures and the specs of what we have used for the last 25 years we buy it in 100 foot rolls and cut the length as required.
it has Brass in the weave. it is green
it has Brass in the weave. it is green
MNoutdoors RIP
Gone But Not Forgotten
On some off the bands we have relined for the OC 4 we have found that a fullwidth short piece of brass has been riveted to the ends of the bands not sure where or who decided that this should be done but apparently it keeps the ends from wearing so fast. With the materials that we use we have not put the brass back. in the past with the use of gear lube in the differential there was a tendency for the liner material to get soft. with the newer materials this and the use of ATF or Trans hydraulic fluid this is not a problem
much any more. The Kevlar linings offered by Tribco will last 5-6 times longer than standard but we rarely go that route because they want to mount
it on the bands, and as of yet will not just sell material to us.
The material for lining that we use is semimetalic woven lining with maximum
coefficient of friction of .55 The max rubbing speed is 5000 feet per minute
max operating temp is 500 degrees far. the max operating pressure is 500 psi
we have it custom manufactured in 100 foot rolls then bring it in and cut the length and predrill the linings for rivets and counterbore for the brass rivets
the thickness can be 5/16" or 3/8" or in some cases 1/2" thick.
MNoutdoors RIP
Gone But Not Forgotten
Question that I have. how offen are you changing you linings after how many hours of use? I would think in most of the recreational user's use of equipment it would not be very offen and the small lightweight units that most of the people on the forum would run. In the industrial sized units that get almost Daily use and have operating weights of 20,000-30,000 pounds we see about three years of use in these new materials in the old materials it would be about half of that. in the light units with just now and then use we have seen 10 years.............. how about your's ?
MNoutdoors RIP
Gone But Not Forgotten
Snowcat Pat
Active member
Thanks for the responses, Yes I am drilling counterboring and riveting the linings myself. I like to have a one piece lining, mounted on straight and the rivets properly set without cracking the brass.
If Tribco won't sell just the lining I wouldn't use it I suppose. Too bad -I like the fact that there is no metal in it. The specs boggie lists for his custom made lining is higher than all the others I have found that advertise specs. The CF is listed as the dry rating on them and I would think that the .55 CF on boggie's materials is also a dry rating. The size of the OC4 is 1/4x1-3/4 and OC12 is 1/4x2. boggie, if you have it in that size, maybe I should be getting it from you. Otherwise I'll go back to Champion, they also have Green Gripper.
http://www.scanpac.com/
Here is a discussion about linings on the cletrac forum.
http://cletrac.org/newbb/viewtopic.php?p=2389&sid=f9f11ad040558343cc1edbd0ae76fd6b
They refer to the ends wearing and might explain what boggie saw with the brass lining ends. Ive got some OC4 bands that are crushed on the ends, probably because of mtncrawler's observation.
I have and use the Scandinavian 022 on the homebuilt which has a M-29 diff. I like the lining because it allows you to slip the brakes for gentle turns without wear. Very helpful at 25 mph, but annoying when turning around on the road. Its NOS, I only have four left and I don't think it's available new. No metal in it only woven cotton. It is not popular because it is not very positive, and I would not recommend it for a customers bands. The trade off is no wear on the drums and so far 19 years on the linings, more than 3500 miles . It basically works by the drag/shear of the oil.
Thats all the info I've got right now.
Scooterd, Yes you can turn them but not much and not if their too worn. I don't try to remove all the scoring that just takes life out of the very expensive drum. I'll post some photos of how I do it in a week or two.
wannagoflying, Send them up but I'm still deciding what lining to use. Hope those axle bushings mount up, they are a bit tight.
Thanks to all, and keep that info coming-Pat
If Tribco won't sell just the lining I wouldn't use it I suppose. Too bad -I like the fact that there is no metal in it. The specs boggie lists for his custom made lining is higher than all the others I have found that advertise specs. The CF is listed as the dry rating on them and I would think that the .55 CF on boggie's materials is also a dry rating. The size of the OC4 is 1/4x1-3/4 and OC12 is 1/4x2. boggie, if you have it in that size, maybe I should be getting it from you. Otherwise I'll go back to Champion, they also have Green Gripper.
http://www.scanpac.com/
Here is a discussion about linings on the cletrac forum.
http://cletrac.org/newbb/viewtopic.php?p=2389&sid=f9f11ad040558343cc1edbd0ae76fd6b
They refer to the ends wearing and might explain what boggie saw with the brass lining ends. Ive got some OC4 bands that are crushed on the ends, probably because of mtncrawler's observation.
I have and use the Scandinavian 022 on the homebuilt which has a M-29 diff. I like the lining because it allows you to slip the brakes for gentle turns without wear. Very helpful at 25 mph, but annoying when turning around on the road. Its NOS, I only have four left and I don't think it's available new. No metal in it only woven cotton. It is not popular because it is not very positive, and I would not recommend it for a customers bands. The trade off is no wear on the drums and so far 19 years on the linings, more than 3500 miles . It basically works by the drag/shear of the oil.
Thats all the info I've got right now.
Scooterd, Yes you can turn them but not much and not if their too worn. I don't try to remove all the scoring that just takes life out of the very expensive drum. I'll post some photos of how I do it in a week or two.
wannagoflying, Send them up but I'm still deciding what lining to use. Hope those axle bushings mount up, they are a bit tight.
Thanks to all, and keep that info coming-Pat
MNoutdoors RIP
Gone But Not Forgotten
As long as we are talking linings lets talk about How to drive a brake steered machine first never leave pressure on the lever all the time. short but firm
strokes on the brake is the best meathod in a turn pull an release pull hard and release. what happens when you release is oil has a complete path to the inside of the lining and the drum allowing oil to come in contact with both. cooling the band and the drum. allthough brake fading is not as much of a issue with the green material is still will fade and recover faster. if is does not recover it means you are building up to much heat and it is not disapating. either by lack of oil cooling or bad linings. keeping the oil cool in a differential is the best way to keep the braking at top preformance.
strokes on the brake is the best meathod in a turn pull an release pull hard and release. what happens when you release is oil has a complete path to the inside of the lining and the drum allowing oil to come in contact with both. cooling the band and the drum. allthough brake fading is not as much of a issue with the green material is still will fade and recover faster. if is does not recover it means you are building up to much heat and it is not disapating. either by lack of oil cooling or bad linings. keeping the oil cool in a differential is the best way to keep the braking at top preformance.
MNoutdoors RIP
Gone But Not Forgotten
Pat, We can still get the Woven without the brass, but we do not use it because,like you say it has not been a good gripper. The Cf is .45, 450F and 250 psi with a 3000 fpm rubbing speed
Snowcat Pat
Active member
Boggies driving tips are right on, nicely said. May I add "get into the turn then get out of it". One tip I use for new drivers is to push the sticks toward the windshield unless you are turning. It helps keep them from getting a habit of pulling a little in between turns and dragging the brakes. Also if the snow is tight and the machine won't turn let off of the sticks and turn 12 feet later. Don't try to force it to turn, also turn on the high spots, and don't turn in the dips. And remember that planetary steering or "Cletrac steering" does not ever lock one track, only slows one and speeds up the other. Just a few tips.
-Pat
-Pat
Mainer
Boggie likes our museum
OK... so to continue this thread and dump my thread on Green Gripper (but for links to site here's reference: http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showthread.php?t=23460 )... this is not the same high-wear material as Snowcat Pat has done some research and found it to wear quickly yet it also has a metal weave but sounds like it's Copper instead of the boggie-brass weave.
In discussions with the manufacturer they felt a waffle-pattern adds some unnecessary wear however it seems logical that it enhances heat disipation... so maybe a trade-off. Hard to say. When I talked to them they said that the Green Gripper is used in brake band applications and is designed to work best by doing a hard grab rather than a weak, prolonged rub (ie, the proper brake steer way of pull-wait, pull-wait, etc... rather than just hanging onto the steering lever).
Also, it seems the idea of cutting small pieces and riveting should be replaced with one continuous more flexible piece...however, of course, we don't want to give up wearability for flexibility either...we wants our cake and we wants to eats it like the precious.
Just some more info... Snowcat Pat...any other thoughts?
In discussions with the manufacturer they felt a waffle-pattern adds some unnecessary wear however it seems logical that it enhances heat disipation... so maybe a trade-off. Hard to say. When I talked to them they said that the Green Gripper is used in brake band applications and is designed to work best by doing a hard grab rather than a weak, prolonged rub (ie, the proper brake steer way of pull-wait, pull-wait, etc... rather than just hanging onto the steering lever).
Also, it seems the idea of cutting small pieces and riveting should be replaced with one continuous more flexible piece...however, of course, we don't want to give up wearability for flexibility either...we wants our cake and we wants to eats it like the precious.
Just some more info... Snowcat Pat...any other thoughts?
Snowcat Pat
Active member
The green brake lining material I get from boggie has brass strands in the 1/4x2 size and copper strands in the 1/4x1-3/4. I don't know why the difference but the heat dissipation would be very similar, the friction of copper may be higher than brass, but I'd have to look up the metals coeficient of friction specs. I believe the metal strands is just part of the friction total.
There is copper in the Scan-Pac Green Gripper I bought. I haven't used it yet but just a comparison on the bench revealed that the GG is the softest and loosest weave, I can easily pull it apart. That tells me that the "ends wearing faster" problem that was discussed might be the worst with the GG, since it will crush more easily. I have been told that is has a very high friction, i.e;fingertip control. I was also told that Zimmeremans used it but when I bought a pair of OC-4 bands from them they were lined with 9010.
The 9010 that I used to use is the physically toughest lining Ive used but it comes from a different country every time I bought some, and the quality varied huge. It held the rivets very well. To be honest I don't know if the performance is better or worse than boggie's custom lining.
boggies custom lining is somewhat less "tough" than 9010, but nowhere near the flimsyness of the GG. I have it in my machine now, It performs very well and I hope to keep using it. It does have some defects in it and I have to waste some of it to get full length linings. I lose two or three linings per roll cutting out the bad spots, which are either areas that were too thin and left a bubbly resin surface instead of clean ground surface or spots where the grinding left divots. Just as boggie stated above the friction does fade if you drag the brakes but it recovers quickly. It has very high friction when its very cold, like the first turn in the morning and slow speed maneuvers. Most linings I've had driving experience with have to warm up the oil before the machine would turn well. The Scandanavian 022 that I'd used for years was the worst from that standpoint, but you could drag them continuously, great for trail grooming.
I've got in quite a few new original type OEM Thiokol/LMC linings with the "waffle" grooves in it. Some of them say 2010 on the back. Our brake supplier said 2010 has asbestos in it. I haven't used any of it yet. I really don't like the way the full length center groove wears the drum and loses a full 1/4 inch of drum/lining contact. All the engineering I've read about CF multiplies times the surface area. I think the OEM's were made for 2100 groomers that require the operator to make long gradual turns. Maybe the diagonal shaped grooves help prevent fade in that application. Almost every OC-12 band I've relined has the diamond groove linings. Some folks say the grooves are there to let oil in so the bands will release. Toward that end I make light saw cuts in my relines. The OEMs are two piece linings. Our brake supplier said they can make diamond pattern but the linings have to be short. I have only used full length linings so far, so no diamond grooving here yet.
As far as flexibility, they are all very bendy and if warmed a bit say about 120 deg F they all get noodley.
Anyone else?
-Pat
There is copper in the Scan-Pac Green Gripper I bought. I haven't used it yet but just a comparison on the bench revealed that the GG is the softest and loosest weave, I can easily pull it apart. That tells me that the "ends wearing faster" problem that was discussed might be the worst with the GG, since it will crush more easily. I have been told that is has a very high friction, i.e;fingertip control. I was also told that Zimmeremans used it but when I bought a pair of OC-4 bands from them they were lined with 9010.
The 9010 that I used to use is the physically toughest lining Ive used but it comes from a different country every time I bought some, and the quality varied huge. It held the rivets very well. To be honest I don't know if the performance is better or worse than boggie's custom lining.
boggies custom lining is somewhat less "tough" than 9010, but nowhere near the flimsyness of the GG. I have it in my machine now, It performs very well and I hope to keep using it. It does have some defects in it and I have to waste some of it to get full length linings. I lose two or three linings per roll cutting out the bad spots, which are either areas that were too thin and left a bubbly resin surface instead of clean ground surface or spots where the grinding left divots. Just as boggie stated above the friction does fade if you drag the brakes but it recovers quickly. It has very high friction when its very cold, like the first turn in the morning and slow speed maneuvers. Most linings I've had driving experience with have to warm up the oil before the machine would turn well. The Scandanavian 022 that I'd used for years was the worst from that standpoint, but you could drag them continuously, great for trail grooming.
I've got in quite a few new original type OEM Thiokol/LMC linings with the "waffle" grooves in it. Some of them say 2010 on the back. Our brake supplier said 2010 has asbestos in it. I haven't used any of it yet. I really don't like the way the full length center groove wears the drum and loses a full 1/4 inch of drum/lining contact. All the engineering I've read about CF multiplies times the surface area. I think the OEM's were made for 2100 groomers that require the operator to make long gradual turns. Maybe the diagonal shaped grooves help prevent fade in that application. Almost every OC-12 band I've relined has the diamond groove linings. Some folks say the grooves are there to let oil in so the bands will release. Toward that end I make light saw cuts in my relines. The OEMs are two piece linings. Our brake supplier said they can make diamond pattern but the linings have to be short. I have only used full length linings so far, so no diamond grooving here yet.
As far as flexibility, they are all very bendy and if warmed a bit say about 120 deg F they all get noodley.
Anyone else?
-Pat
Snowcat Pat
Active member
Here are some links to manuf's. that make woven brake linings. I collected these back around the time this thread was started. One could spend a lot of money and time trying out all these linings. Anything else is just talk. I decided to trust boggie, and so far I'm not dissapointed. That said I would still be interested in any lining that is truly better.
http://www.lewismanufacturingco.com/Friction.htm
http://www.medibix.com/goto.php?ste=www.glfp.com
http://www.glfp.com/mat.htm
http://www.fdl-usa1.com/catalog.htm#WOVEN PRODUCTS
http://www.standco.net/redbull.html
http://www.indbrake.com/msc.htm
http://www.midwestbrake.com/products_frictionmat.htm
http://www.wheelingbrake.com/
http://www.redcoproducts.com/wbl.htm
Woven linings are what planetary diffs. use.
By the way, the last lining I got from boggie has both copper and brass strands in it.
Some used linings I have removed have aluminum strands in them, and possibly zinc strands, an idea I find very interesting. Some form of zinc may be in the Cat TO-4 oil.
Enjoy the read, Mainer.
-Pat
http://www.lewismanufacturingco.com/Friction.htm
http://www.medibix.com/goto.php?ste=www.glfp.com
http://www.glfp.com/mat.htm
http://www.fdl-usa1.com/catalog.htm#WOVEN PRODUCTS
http://www.standco.net/redbull.html
http://www.indbrake.com/msc.htm
http://www.midwestbrake.com/products_frictionmat.htm
http://www.wheelingbrake.com/
http://www.redcoproducts.com/wbl.htm
Woven linings are what planetary diffs. use.
By the way, the last lining I got from boggie has both copper and brass strands in it.
Some used linings I have removed have aluminum strands in them, and possibly zinc strands, an idea I find very interesting. Some form of zinc may be in the Cat TO-4 oil.
Enjoy the read, Mainer.
-Pat
Mainer
Boggie likes our museum
Thanks SP. Very intersting. I've been looking at various manufacturers and having casual discussions with folks that have been working with these materials for years. Some have worked on 601's for many years and tried different linings. At the end of the day there are a couple of base facts:
1. People have been using the standard linings for years and the world has still been found to be round...so most any of them will work and work for years from what I've gathered from folks out in the field. Brake band lining replacement is not a thing that happens all that often but I'm trying to find the best... but best may be slicing hairs, counter to claims.
2. The physical character of the band lining is one thing but the other factor in this is also the drum, obviously. So, if there is any additional abrasion to the drum that may cause slightly more wear to the drum, then I'd rather change the linings more frequently. I don't believe there is a way to overcome the mechanical challenge at hand such that a lining lasts *much* longer at no cost to the drum.
But this is still an interesting thing to research...maybe having one made of brass, copper, and zinc just for sh* and giggles.
From folks I've talked to, the tried and true linings seem to have brass weave. Similar to the fricting disks in the power divider.
When i've talked to some guys about the impact of excessive wear to the drum... they shake their heads as to where they'd find a replacement... so, long-wear bands may come at a cost... or the imaginary cake-and-eat-it effect comes into play.
1. People have been using the standard linings for years and the world has still been found to be round...so most any of them will work and work for years from what I've gathered from folks out in the field. Brake band lining replacement is not a thing that happens all that often but I'm trying to find the best... but best may be slicing hairs, counter to claims.
2. The physical character of the band lining is one thing but the other factor in this is also the drum, obviously. So, if there is any additional abrasion to the drum that may cause slightly more wear to the drum, then I'd rather change the linings more frequently. I don't believe there is a way to overcome the mechanical challenge at hand such that a lining lasts *much* longer at no cost to the drum.
But this is still an interesting thing to research...maybe having one made of brass, copper, and zinc just for sh* and giggles.
From folks I've talked to, the tried and true linings seem to have brass weave. Similar to the fricting disks in the power divider.
When i've talked to some guys about the impact of excessive wear to the drum... they shake their heads as to where they'd find a replacement... so, long-wear bands may come at a cost... or the imaginary cake-and-eat-it effect comes into play.
Snowcat Pat
Active member
After much additional and continuing research I have found that much of the "facts" presented in this thread are questionable. The last post by Mainer is probably the most accurate. Just FYI.
-Pat
-Pat