Air Force bounces US manufacturer for Brazilian competitor

[Cowboy]

This just aint right, but it seems to be the norm these days from Air Force when it comes to buying from American companys like Hawker Beechcraft, Boing and several other aircraft companys that are local to our area.




Let’s start this off by stating that the Air Force may well have had a good reason for disqualifying Hawker Beechcraft from the bid process on a billion-dollar contract for an updated light attack aircraft. If so, though, the reasoning seems to have escaped Hawker Beechcraft and Rep. Mike Pompeo (R-KS), who represents the district in which Hawker Beechcraft is based. The decision will have jobs heading to Brazil, most likely:

The Air Force has notified Hawker Beechcraft Corp. that its Beechcraft AT-6 has been excluded from competition to build a light attack aircraft, a contract worth nearly $1 billion, the company said.
The company had hoped to its AT-6, an armed version of its T-6 trainer, would be chosen for the Light Air Support Counter Insurgency aircraft for the Afghanistan National Army Corps. The chosen aircraft also would be used as a light attack armed reconnaissance aircraft for the U.S. Air Force. …
The decision appears to favor the Super Tucano built by Brazil’s Embraer for the initial contract to supply 35 with the potential for 55 aircraft worth up to $950?million, which does not include foreign sales, the Eagle reported.
​

Oddly enough, Embraer has been in the news lately. Less than three weeks ago, the Brazilian airplane builder announced that the SEC had begun a probe — for corruption:

Embraer, the world’s third-largest commercial aircraft producer, said it is under investigation by the US Securities and Exchange Commission for corruption, casting doubt over one of Brazil’s top companies. ..
Embraer’s shares dropped nearly 5 per cent on Thursday, falling the most in six weeks, after the announcement, which was included in the group’s third-quarter results statement.
“In response to a subpoena issued in an investigation by the US Securities and Exchange Commission relating to possible violations of the US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, the company retained outside counsel to conduct an internal investigation,” Embraer said in a filing late on Wednesday, a national holiday in Brazil.
​

What’s at stake? Oh, a few jobs here and there:

Hawker Beechcraft said it had been working with the Air Force for two years and had invested more than $100 million to meet the Air Force’s requirements for the plane. It noted that the Beechcraft AT-6 had been found capable of meeting the requirements in a demonstration program led by the Air National Guard.
“We have followed the Air Force’s guidance close, and based on what we have seen, we continue to believe that we submitted the most capable, affordable and sustainable light attack aircraft,” the company said.
The company has said that winning the contract would have kept its T-6 production line running after 2015. About 1,400 employees in 20 states – including 800 at Hawker Beechcraft in Wichita – work on the AT-6 and T-6 programs for Beechcraft and its U.S. suppliers and partners.
​

If Hawker Beechcraft competed for the contract and lost on price and quality, well, that would be the market at work. However, they’re not being allowed to compete at all for the new purchase, even though they already supply the Air Force and had been allowed to work on the new bid without any notice that they would be excluded, wasting the $100 million, which produced a plane that appears to have met the guidelines for the bid. The decision to exclude Hawker Beechcraft from the competition seems curious at best.
Perhaps Congress might want to take a closer look as to why the Pentagon appears to have favored a foreign builder for homeland-security needs over a domestic firm even before the final bid decision. If there is a good reason for the decision, then let’s see it — but if not, let’s see why this decision got made.
http://hotair.com/archives/2011/11/22/air-force-bounces-us-manufacturer-for-brazilian-competitor/

 

[joec]

It is pretty much on par with the military as much of our jobs are done by foreign contractors. Now too sure about planes but know many of the components used in many military items are from several different countries.

 

[thcri]

I really wonder how much manufacturing is left in the US. Gee what will it be in ten years?

 

[joec]

I really wonder how much manufacturing is left in the US. Gee what will it be in ten years?

I saw some figures on that yesterday and it is bleak.

The summary is:

The manufacturing sector of the U.S. economy has experienced substantial job losses over the past several years. In January 2004, the number of such jobs stood at 14.3 million, down by 3.0 million jobs, or 17.5 percent, since July 2000 and about 5.2 million since the historical peak in 1979. Employment in manufacturing was its lowest since July 1950

This is the source of the summary above http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=5078&type=0

 

[Cowboy]

I really wonder how much manufacturing is left in the US. Gee what will it be in ten years?

I dont know about anywhere else but there has allways been a lot of manufacturing in this area . Mostly due to the aircraft industry but Wichita is the home of many big companys. You might find this interesting from wiki.

Wichita is also the home of Big Dog motercyles started by Sheldon Coleman of the Coleman company fame also started here.

History

B-47A pilots training at Wichita AFB in 1955. The planes were built across the runway at Boeing


The site at the confluence of the Arkansas and Little Arkansas Rivers has served as a trading center and meeting place for nomadic hunting people for at least 11,000 years.[11] Human habitation in the Wichita area has been dated, in archeological digs, as far back as 3,000 B.C.[12] The area was visited by Francisco Vásquez de Coronado in 1541, while he was in search of the fabulous "cities of gold." While there, he encountered a group of Indians whom he called Quiviras and who have been identified by archeological and historical studies as Wichita Indians. By 1719, these people had moved south to Oklahoma, where they met French traders. The first permanent settlement in Wichita was a collection of grass houses inhabited by the Wichita Indians in 1863. They had moved back to Wichita from Oklahoma during the American Civil War because of their pro-Union sentiments.
The city was officially incorporated in 1870.[13] Its position on the Chisholm Trail made it a destination for cattle drives headed north to access railroads to eastern markets. As a result, it became a railhead destination for cattle drives from Texas and other south-western points, from whence it has derived its nickname "Cowtown." It quickly gained a wild reputation, and had numerous well-known lawmen pass through, employed to help keep the rowdy cowboys in line. Among those was Wyatt Earp.
Following the incorporation of the city in 1870, rapid immigration resulted in a land boom involving speculation into the late 1880s. By 1890 Wichita had become the third largest city in the state (behind Kansas City and Topeka), with a population of nearly 24,000. After the boom the city suffered from 15 years of comparative depression and slow growth. An island in the middle of the Arkansas River, named Ackerman Island was home to an amusement park, and a dance pavilion. The island was connected to the West Bank of the river through a WPA project in the thirties. Wichita reached national fame in 1900 when Woman's Christian Temperance Union (WCTU) member Carrie Nation decided to carry her crusade against alcohol to Wichita. On December 27 of that year she entered the Carey House bar in downtown Wichita and smashed the place with a rock and a pool ball. Although she had visited all the bars in Wichita the night before, demanding that they close their doors, the John Noble painting Cleopatra at the Roman Bath in the Carey House had drawn her particular wrath.
[edit] Air Capital

In the 20th century, aircraft pioneers such as Clyde Cessna and Walter Beech began projects that led to Wichita's establishment as the "Air Capital of the World". The aircraft corporations Stearman, Cessna, Mooney and Beech were all founded in Wichita in the late 1920s and early 1930s.
In 1914-1915, oil was discovered nearby and Wichita became a major oil center. The money derived from oil allowed local entrepreneurs to invest in a nascent airplane industry. In 1917, the Cessna Comet became the first aircraft to be manufactured in Wichita. Soon after, the Swallow became Wichita's first airplane made specifically for production and the Swallow Airplane Company built 43 of them between 1920 and 1923. Lloyd Stearman and Walter Beech were both employees of the Swallow Company, but in January 1925 they left Swallow and teamed up with Clyde Cessna to form Travel Air. Stearman left the company in 1926 to start Stearman Aircraft in Venice, California and Cessna quit in January 1927 to start Cessna. In 1927, Stearman would relocate his factory back to Wichita. This varied aircraft industry, along with Wichita becoming a test center for new aviation, established Wichita as the "Air Capital."
Travel Air, with Walter Beech at the helm, grew to over 600 employees and operated from a huge factory complex constructed a few miles outside the city from 1927 to 1929. Due to so many employees working at such a large complex, it was dubbed "Travel Air City" by Wichita residents. The company merged with the huge Curtiss Wright Corporation in the Roaring Twenties' heyday of company buyouts and takeovers just two months before the Stock Market crash in 1929. Workers were laid off by the hundreds during 1930 and 1931 and by the fall of 1932, the remaining Travel Air employees were let go, the equipment was sold, and the entire Travel Air plant sat empty.

Downtown Wichita viewed from the west bank of the Arkansas River


In March 1932, Beech quit the Curtis Wright Corporation to form Beech Aircraft, along with his wife Olive Ann, and hired Ted Wells as his chief engineer. While the first few "Beechcraft" were built in the vacant Cessna Aircraft plant, which had also closed during the depression, Beech later leased and then bought the Travel Air plant from Curtis Wright and moved his factory to this plant. Beech's first aircraft was the Model 17, later dubbed the "Staggerwing", was first flown on November 5, 1932. Staggerwing production ended in 1946 (to be replaced by the Beechcraft Bonanza) with approximately 750 built. Nearly 100 Staggerwings are still in existence, many in flying condition. However, the aircraft that would propel the small company into a huge corporation was the Model 18 "Twin Beech", of which thousands were built from 1937 to 1969. On February 8, 1980, Beech Aircraft Corporation was purchased by the Raytheon Corporation and later renamed Hawker Beechcraft.

The original Pizza Hut building, which was moved to the campus of Wichita State University


The city experienced a population explosion during World War II when it became a major manufacturing center for airplanes needed in the war effort. By 1945, an average of 4.2 bombers were being produced daily in Wichita. In 1962, the Lear Jet Corporation began when the Swiss American Aviation Corporation bought the tooling for building a failed ground-attack fighter to Wichita and opened a plant at Wichita's airport. On February 7, 1963 assembly of the first Learjet aircraft began and the following year, the company was renamed the Lear Jet Corporation. In 1990, Canadian firm, Bombardier Aerospace purchased Learjet Corporation.
The city remains a major manufacturing center for the aircraft industry today, with Boeing, Hawker Beechcraft, Bombardier, Cessna, and even Airbus all having major manufacturing centers in town.[14]"
Wichita was also a significant entrepreneurial business center during the pre and post-war period, with Coleman, Mentholatum, Pizza Hut, White Castle, Taco Tico and Koch Industries having all been founded in Wichita. (Ironically, White Castle closed all of their restaurants in Wichita in 1938 and has not operated in the state of Kansas after a failed revival attempt in the Kansas City area in the early 1990s.) The entrepreneurial spirit of Wichita led to the creation of one of the first academic centers to study and support entrepreneurship at the Wichita State University Center for Entrepreneurship.
In October 1932, orchestra leader Gage Brewer introduced the electric guitar to the world from Wichita using an instrument developed by what would later become known as the Rickenbacker Guitar Company.
The Dockum Drug Store sit-in was one of the first organized lunch-counter sit-ins for the purpose of integrating segregated establishments in the United States. The protest began in July 1958 in Wichita at the Dockum Drug Store, a store in the old Rexall chain, in which protesters would sit at the counter all day until the store closed, ignoring taunts from counterprotesters. The sit-in ended three weeks later when the owner relented and agreed to serve black patrons, taking place 18 months before the more widely publicized Greensboro sit-ins in January 1960.[15] A 20-foot (6.1 m)-long bronze sculpture first announced in 1998 at a cost of $3 million marks the site of the successful sit-in, with a lunch counter and patrons depicting the protest.[16]
Recent history has seen increased development in downtown and to the east and west sides of Wichita. Sedgwick County voters recently[when?] approved a sales tax raise to build a new arena downtown to replace the aging Kansas Coliseum, located north of the city. This is considered by some as a stepping stone to launch new development downtown.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wichita,_Kansas

 

[tiredretired]

This is a prime example of how people are full of crap when they say our esteemed president has little to no control over job creation.

How about a strong, forceful Commander-In-Chief who steps up to the plate and tells the so called "powers that be" that this country right now desperetely needs jobs and this is how it is going to be.

But of course, he is too busy trying to raise his 1 Billion dollar war chest and hitting the links to really give a damn. Even his own base sees this now.

 

[thcri]

This is a prime example of how people are full of crap when they say our esteemed president has little to no control over job creation.

How about a strong, forceful Commander-In-Chief who steps up to the plate and tells the so called "powers that be" that this country right now desperetely needs jobs and this is how it is going to be.

But of course, he is too busy trying to raise his 1 Billion dollar war chest and hitting the links to really give a damn. Even his own base sees this now.

But didn't he try to control Boeing who he should have no say over what so ever and here where he has say did nothing? I am surprised the union isn't all over him on this?

 

[tiredretired]

But didn't he try to control Boeing who he should have no say over what so ever and here where he has say did nothing? I am surprised the union isn't all over him on this?

Exactly. When he should do something he doesn't. When he should mind his own business, he sticks his nose in. Of course, as we all know, the Boeing case is all about protecting his union base. Which he is losing with examples like the pipeline and Beechcraft.

 

[jimbo]

Brazil seems to be Barry's new favored country. Didn't he a few months ago visit the country and hand them a drilling permit in the Gulf while at the same time preventing American companies from doing the same?

Back in the day, as they say, military purchases in the US were strongly encouraged. The argument then went that in the event of war we did not want to have to go the enemy for spare parts.

 

[tiredretired]

Brazil seems to be Barry's new favored country. Didn't he a few months ago visit the country and hand them a drilling permit in the Gulf while at the same time preventing American companies from doing the same?

I believe Glen Beck explained that. It seems Georgie Soros owns 25% of the Brazilian drilling company. Nuff said?

 

[FrancSevin]

Since the Clinton Era, Taurus 9MM pistols have been standard issue inthe military. Taurus pistols are from Puerto Alegre Brazi'l.

Nothing new really

Actually I think Barry favors European Countries. Why did he force Chrysler onto Fiat? Mitsubishi, who had much more in common, an existing relationship, parts, product line and styling, would have been a much better partner.

But Fiat and most of Europe is pro union. Mitsubishi,,,,not so much.

The only jobs Obama will spend time, effort and US taxpayer dollars to improve are Union jobs. Unless, of course, they are oil workers in the Gulf or North Dakota.

Why is that?

 

[joec]

w

Since the Clinton Era, Taurus 9MM pistols have been standard issue inthe military. Taurus pistols are from Puerto Alegre Brazi'l.

Nothing new really

Actually I think Barry favors European Countries. Why did he force Chrysler onto Fiat? Mitsubishi, who had much more in common, an existing relationship, parts, product line and styling, would have been a much better partner.

But Fiat and most of Europe is pro union. Mitsubishi,,,,not so much.

The only jobs Obama will spend time, effort and US taxpayer dollars to improve are Union jobs. Unless, of course, they are oil workers in the Gulf or North Dakota.

Why is that?

Actually no Taurus firearms at all are issued the American Troops or other government agencies. Now Sig's, Beretta and Glock are but not a single Taurus is issued. Now they did put one up for approval however it wasn't accepted due to budget cuts so the weapon was dropped. Taurus is used by other countries just not the US.

 

[Kane]

A couple thoughts on the A-6. I was wondering what it means for American security to have an attack aircraft built by a foreign state, but then see that the A-6 is destined primarily for the Afghanistan National Army Corps.

hmmm ... cheap is OK?

 

[joec]

I believe Glen Beck explained that. It seems Georgie Soros owns 25% of the Brazilian drilling company. Nuff said?

Soros does own some however perhaps you should also read this.

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/09/bogus-brazilian-oil-claims/

 

[Kane]

FactCheck would say Obama's shit don't stink.

 

[FrancSevin]

w

Actually no Taurus firearms at all are issued the American Troops or other government agencies. Now Sig's, Beretta and Glock are but not a single Taurus is issued. Now they did put one up for approval however it wasn't accepted due to budget cuts so the weapon was dropped. Taurus is used by other countries just not the US.

Then why did my son carry one in the navy?

 

[joec]

Then why did my son carry one in the navy?

Which may I ask did he carry as the only gun that Taurus has ever put up for the US military is the 24/7 OSS. Now I was issued a Beretta 92 though it I wasn't in the navy. Taurus did buy the Brazilian Beretta plant, including machines and rights to the 92 series guns which they supplied to the Brazilians. Now the PT92 is very much like the Beretta with a few exception the main one being the location of the safety. So now you have my curiosity up as I sure Taurus would love to hear they have a gun used and issued by the US Navy which as far as know are Beretta except for Seals which use Sig's.

 

[FrancSevin]

Which may I ask did he carry as the only gun that Taurus has ever put up for the US military is the 24/7 OSS. Now I was issued a Beretta 92 though it I wasn't in the navy. Taurus did buy the Brazilian Beretta plant, including machines and rights to the 92 series guns which they supplied to the Brazilians. Now the PT92 is very much like the Beretta with a few exception the main one being the location of the safety. So now you have my curiosity up as I sure Taurus would love to hear they have a gun used and issued by the US Navy which as far as know are Biretta except for Seals which use Sig's.

I may be mistaken, but I am sure he referred me to a a Taurus because of his experience with it, at the New London Sub base. I doubt I would have purchased the weapon otherwise.

Wanted to but did not get to serve. I am frankly unaware of most anything involving military weapons. Not desputing your emminent knowledge, just what I experienced second hand.

 

[joec]

I may be mistaken, but I am sure he referred me to a a Taurus because of his experience with it, at the New London Sub base. I doubt I would have purchased the weapon otherwise.

Wanted to but did not get to serve. I am frankly unaware of most anything involving military weapons. Not desputing your emminent knowledge, just what I experienced second hand.

Well Franc the Beretta 92 and Taurus PT92 are pretty much the same guns and where for a while when Taurus became a company. Now Taurus later improved upon the design in my opinion by moving the safety off of the slide and putting it on the frame. Since then they added a decocker and a tactical rail like I now own myself. Now Taurus even mine can still use a Beretta locking block, most of the springs and the barrels. Some other changes are the slide release the spring position has been reversed from the Beretta. Now Beretta is selling guns with many of those features but not all. I also have a PT911 which based on the same platform though more compact but with the same magazine capacity. Oh and the magazines aren't interchangeable either though they with some filing can be made to work.

 

[Cowboy]

Brazil seems to be Barry's new favored country. Didn't he a few months ago visit the country and hand them a drilling permit in the Gulf while at the same time preventing American companies from doing the same?

Back in the day, as they say, military purchases in the US were strongly encouraged. The argument then went that in the event of war we did not want to have to go the enemy for spare parts.

Exactly.

London: Billionaire investor George Soros bought an $811 million stake in Petroleo Brasileiro (Petrobras) in the second quarter, making the Brazilian state-controlled oil company his investment fund's largest holding.
http://gulfnews.com/business/oil-gas/soros-hedge-fund-invests-811m-to-buy-petrobras-stake-1.125134

I believe Glen Beck explained that. It seems Georgie Soros owns 25% of the Brazilian drilling company. Nuff said?

Yup, George Soros also has a major shareholding in Harbin-Embraer, the Chinese subsidiary of Embraer.

Bottom line is, There really needs to be a detailed explanation about why Hawker Beechcraft was excluded, especially after $100M in R&D costs and two years working with the DoD.

As far as handguns thats getting just a bit off topic isn't it?

The only facts I care about is the further damage to the Wichita economy due to this news they just layed off 1400 more employee's not quite what I would call , job creation. ​

 

[Cowboy]

A couple thoughts on the A-6. I was wondering what it means for American security to have an attack aircraft built by a foreign state, but then see that the A-6 is destined primarily for the Afghanistan National Army Corps.

hmmm ... cheap is OK?

It makes no sense to me either ,I cant believe the US Airforce would rather pay for American Airplanes flown by American Pilots in the United States Military to be built in Brazil and pay a foreign country and support their citizens' workforce to do so, rather than our own! This just goes to show you where our government's priorioritys are, certainly not with the American people who support their lifestyles and extravaggant living.

 

[FrancSevin]

"As far as handguns thats getting just a bit off topic isn't it? "

Not really Cowboy. A good bit of military expeditures which used to go to American manufacturers, now goes overseas.

Why are planes special?

The rrot of the problem has little to do with patriotism. Part and parcel is the high cost of American made. In addition, our military just got a huge funding cut and anotherone onthe way.

The job priority of our military is to defend our nation,,,,not to provide employment security.

Decisions made on Capitol Hill, not the Pentagon, effect those choices.
I believe, as i think you do,that this goes to Barry. I also believe it trails back thru all of them to the Carter years.

Time to kick the bastards out.

 

[joec]

"As far as handguns thats getting just a bit off topic isn't it? "

Not really Cowboy. A good bit of military expeditures which used to go to American manufacturers, now goes overseas.

Why are planes special?

The rrot of the problem has little to do with patriotism. Part and parcel is the high cost of American made. In addition, our military just got a huge funding cut and anotherone onthe way.

The job priority of our military is to defend our nation,,,,not to provide employment security.

Decisions made on Capitol Hill, not the Pentagon, effect those choices.
I believe, as i think you do,that this goes to Barry. I also believe it trails back thru all of them to the Carter years.

Time to kick the bastards out.

I do tend to agree Franc. Small arms (pistols, rifles) are both imported for the most part. Now I'm not sure about the rifles or even if Colt or Remington are still made in this country. Springfield is also made in Brazil. I said in another post Ruger seems to be the only "100% US Made" gun but that might be more advertising hype as I'm so sure of that either. Even our Space program many of the parts of satellites and such are made in other countries. I've often wondered how this would effect or national security also.

 

[Kane]

Even our Space program many of the parts of satellites and such are made in other countries. I've often wondered how this would effect or national security also.

Absolutely, joec. With the cyber tech today, outsourcing defense spending could lead to all manner of problems during a time of war.

I've heard that it's been done before.

Then.


Now?


What could possibly go wrong?

.

 

[joec]

I do know that at the start of WWII many of our manufacturing companies converted over to making military hardware from guns, ammo, planes, tanks etc.My grandmother worked at that time making 1911 at a Singer Sewing Machine plant. She later switched her over to making the ammo all in the same plant.

 

[fogtender]

Simply put, nothing of/for the military should be built ouside the US.

In time of conflict, you can't get parts from overseas in large quantities, or the supplier maybe the new enemy.

This global market has its limits.

 

[joec]

Simply put, nothing of/for the military should be built ouside the US.

In time of conflict, you can't get parts from overseas in large quantities, or the supplier maybe the new enemy.

This global market has its limits.

Common sense one would think. However when was the term military intelligence not consider and oxymoron. Not a meant as a slap at the military but the military industrial complex which is part of the problem with this stuff. Even Eisenhower warned us to be aware of it as he saw it as a possible future problem.

 

[FrancSevin]

Simply put, nothing of/for the military should be built ouside the US.

In time of conflict, you can't get parts from overseas in large quantities, or the supplier maybe the new enemy.

This global market has its limits.

Well, that should be true. But I seem to remeber a phrase for that......"military industrial complex."

I don't have a problem with it but, the doves on the left sure do. Even if their families made fortunes participating in it. I woud like to see most of our important ordinace, hardaware and High technology sourced only fromnative USA.
Uniforms, dinnerware, even trucks and flags, get 'em anywhere that saves a buck. All so we can spend more on the strategicaly important stuff.